Author Topic: Why I Choose Not to Retire  (Read 6347 times)

2527

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Why I Choose Not to Retire
« on: May 19, 2013, 12:48:34 PM »
By most people's standards, I could retire if I want to.

I'm 49 years old.  My wife and I have no debt other than our mortgage.  We have about $2M in the stock market (I've always lived well below my means and invested well (not James Bond well, just real-world well, LOL) since I got my first paycheck.).  I have a military pension and another source of passive income, outside of my investments, that totals about $70,000 per year, plus access to health insurance through the military.  My wife doesn't work.

My dream used to be to never work after I left the military.  Somehow that didn't happen.  Why or how?

One reason is I don't think my wife and I have an agreement of what "the dream" looks like.  I used to dream about sailing around the world but one day I noticed my wife likes a house with air conditioning, a hair dryer, screens on the all the windows, heat, etc.

Another reason is I'm not sure what I would fill my time with.

Another reason is my job doesn't drive me crazy, maybe because I refuse to let it do so.  I get paid fairly well for a job with not much stress and steady hours.  I get every weekend off, plus every other Friday (thanks to a compressed schedule), and you can set your watch by my arrival time home every day.   Between vacation time, every other Friday, holidays, and vacation days, I get 160 days off per year.  I like to focus on the positives of that, and not the 200 other days per year.  I have a long commute, and I'm not solving world hunger, but, that's not so bad.   If I can't be happy with 160 days off per year, I probably can't be happy with 365 days off per year.

Another reason is I inherited some, but not a huge amount, money from my dad and would feel like a free-loader if I didn't pass on the same amount or more to my kids.

Another reason is, I think I owe my kids the example of dad getting up and going to work and being successful in the world, and not just hanging out in my shorts all the time, and then one day telling them to go out into the world and bag a bunch of money.  They were young when I was in the military and never really saw me work my ass off.  Most of that happened before they were born or really aware.  I've worked days on end, every holiday, every hour on the clock, 24 hours straight twice, and almost "gave all" one day for George Bush's Iraq Adventure. 

By the way, I moved 13 times in 21 years, which pushed my money into mutual funds instead of a big prestige house, which ended up serving me very well. 

So I focus on finding as much joy as I can every day while still working, trying to enjoy what I have without becoming consumerist, and raising my kids to grow up with a healthy attitude to work, and a sensible attitude about what money buys and what it doesn't buy.

I love this website.  It allows me to follow a lot of conversations, and have conversations I can't have with most people (anybody, really) that I know FTF.

Jeff
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 05:13:22 PM by Jeff L »

matchewed

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2013, 12:55:28 PM »
Congratulations. As long as you're happy I don't think you'll find many people who will argue with you. It is your life.

Now as a disclaimer I'm not a parent, nor do I have any kids. I understand the concept of what you are saying about dad getting up and going to work to be successful, and if that is the message you want to send to your children cool enough. I view it from the side of the kid sometimes. The kid doesn't see you being successful, they see you leaving home, and then they see you coming back home. Now you coming back home and being a positive person and happy with your life is probably the bigger and better example you are setting for your children than you being "successful."

Please don't take this as a criticism as I think where you are at with your life is pretty damn good.

2527

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2013, 01:06:19 PM »
Matchewed,

You bring up a good point.  A while ago, I was unemployed for over a year, and for a while, at the age of 49 in a lousy economy, I thought I was dead-man walking in terms of employability.  Recently I read an entry in my son's English journal.  The topic was dealing with change or something.  It was about how I was looking for a job for a while and we did lots of fun things together, but since I found a job we don't do as much of that any more. 


psychomoustache

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2013, 01:08:18 PM »
Hi to you
I don't want to retire either. We could easily (mustachian-ly) live on my husband's income - and actually we do. But I love my work, which basically pays me very little and pays to maintain itself. I'm going back to school at age 47 here to be more assured that in the future; I can continue to work comfortably until I hope age 70 or so.

My dad still works and turns 75 next month - and he definitely financially no longer needs to.

Like him - he's an example to me - I want to work because I feel for me, I'm giving back to the world in this way, and doing something amazing and stimulating and wonderful. For ME.  But I love this site too, which has improved our savings rate, our outlook, and our quality of life on our one moderate salary. So it's all good.

2527

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2013, 01:46:23 PM »
Psychomoustache,

Right now, I think I would like to work til I'm 70, too.  The happiest people I know are people who keep working at jobs they like.  But I may feel differently in the future, LOL.  I would be happy to be able to take 1-2 weeks leave without pay or a professional part time option at some point in the future.

Theadyn

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2013, 01:47:25 PM »
Maybe the good point to this is, you CHOOSE to work still.  You don't have to, by most standards.  I think that's awesome!!  :)

2527

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2013, 01:51:59 PM »
Theadyn, I am grateful every day for having the option of working.  While I was unemployed, I was afraid all my professional doors were closed to me unless I was willing to move.  My kids are well-planted in good schools, and I want to keep them here. 

arebelspy

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2013, 02:34:43 PM »
Congratulations on your success.

Choose what is best for you and your family and what makes you happy.

At some point you may want to read Zalinski's two books to explore the idea of retiring and doing something else.  Not that you need to, but one comment stuck out to me ("Another reason is I'm not sure what I would fill my time with.") - that, to me, is someone who hasn't really explored any other options.

It is very, very unlikely that your job is literally the only thing that would interest you in the world.  Thus, you likely haven't explored other things that might bring you even more joy (and with 0k/year without counting portfolio returns on 2MM, you certainly can fund it).

So at some point you may want to explore the other options just so you know what's out there, and then if you still want to keep working, do so!
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

2527

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2013, 02:39:50 PM »
Arebelspy,

I'll check them out.  I'd be willing to walk toward something if I know what it is.  I just don't want to walk away from something. 

2527

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2013, 03:37:37 PM »
One thing I'm less than completely satisfied with is the place we ended up living when I left the military.  We are near my sister and now 86-year old mother, and we are in a school district that is rated in the top 1% of Pennsylvania by certain measures.  That's mostly good.

The downside is we are surrounded by high-earning people.  We live in a really nice townhouse, but the people around us are quite spendy and live in houses that cost about 2/3 more to double what our townhouse cost. 

In the military, my wife and I lived in everything from a 250 sq ft apartment to a very prestigious address and we don't take these things too seriously.  But all our kids know is what they see now, and all other people know about is what they see now.

If I had this particular decision to make over again, I might have chosen a less upscale area.  But my kids are getting a great education, and we are getting good quality schools for the price of our property tax.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 03:45:59 PM by Jeff L »

Nords

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2013, 08:32:03 PM »
I've seen several variations of this discussion over the last decade, so here are some thoughts to consider.

It sounds like you're saying that you're FI but have no reason to quit your job.  In Malcolm Gladwell's book "Outliers", he describes the ideal occupation as allowing autonomy, complexity, and fulfillment.  Personally if I was a doctor, lawyer, university professor, or independent investor then maybe I'd see no reason to quit.  (However I saw no reason to start those careers, either.)  Maybe the same could be said for a career in evaluating longboard design & performance, although I don't have many customers seeking my sage advice. 

Another reason is I'm not sure what I would fill my time with.
This concern is in the top three of every retiree.  In fact, since you have an inflation-fighting pension and cheap healthcare, this concern is probably #1 on your list.  But six months after leaving the workplace, every military retiree with whom I've spoken has said that they wonder what the heck they were worrying about.

If you choose to quit the job then you have to be responsible for your own entertainment.  Having a workplace can form a social structure to provide that entertainment, as well as giving you a reason to get out of bed in the morning.  But Dory36, the creator of Early-Retirement.org, used to describe the workplace with an analogy.  You go through your working days with one bucket in each hand, labeled "FI" and "BS".  Both fill slowly over the years, although you have some influence over their fill rate.  When the FI bucket is full, however, something odd happens to the BS bucket.  It suddenly fills more rapidly than ever and begins overflowing.

Again, if you're getting autonomy/complexity/fulfillment then maybe the BS bucket doesn't overflow.  But FI certainly gives you choices.

Speaking of Ernie Zelinski, you could try his "Get-A-Life Tree": 
http://bestretirementquotes.blogspot.com/2009/10/get-life-tree-great-retirement-planning.html

Another reason is, I think I owe my kids the example of dad getting up and going to work and being successful in the world, and not just hanging out in my shorts all the time, and then one day telling them to go out into the world and bag a bunch of money.
Totally disagree.

First reason:  One of the old-timer members of Early-Retirement.org, Jarhead (also a military vet), ER'd in the early 1980s.  He had the same concern you've expressed, and he decided to demonstrate the virtues of work.  Each morning he'd get up, shave, dress up in coat & tie, and be at the breakfast table to greet his teen daughter as she got ready for school.  He'd drive off "for work" before she caught the school bus.  Then he'd hang out at the local coffee shop until she was clear, and return home to change clothes and enjoy his day the ER way.  This continued until she left for college.

Two decades later he confessed this subterfuge to his adult daughter, and she laughed at him.  She said that she'd never noticed what he was doing because she was too totally wrapped up in her teenage life (with its drama & angst) to notice what her Dad was doing with his time.  Even if she'd noticed, she was too busy with her own drama & angst to care.  Unfortunately you might have to wait a few years to test this on your own kids.

Second reason:  When I retired from the military I told my eight-year-old daughter that I had a job offer.  I explained how we had enough money for the family that I didn't need to work, but if I took the job then we'd have even more money.  We'd be so rich that we could buy her a horse now and buy her a car for her 16th birthday.  She was absolutely thrilled at a Dad-Of-The-Decade level.  Then I told her that I'd have to work every weekday from 8 AM to 4:30 PM instead of being home when she got home from school.  She'd have to get herself up in the mornings, get her own breakfasts, get out the door on her own, come home from school on her own, fix her own snacks, and take care of herself (and her homework) until I got home.  I told her that I wouldn't have midwatches or weekend duty (let alone deployments) but that I wouldn't be able to volunteer to help out at school or chaperone fieldtrips.  It took her about 10 seconds to decide that wasn't worth the privileges of having a horse and a car.  She wanted the quality parental time. 

Oddly enough, for the next nine years she'd get herself up in the mornings, get her own breakfasts, get out the door on her own, come home from school on her own, fix her own snacks, and take care of herself (and her homework).  She didn't need me to be there to do anything for her.  She just wanted me to be there for her.  Of course from a parental perspective I'm sure that my after-school presence helped work through a few drama/angst meltdowns, and it probably deterred the "visiting-boyfriend-of-the-week" program. 

So I think the only thing your kids want/need from you is your time.  Younger kids just want the thrill of seeing you in their classrooms and on field trips.  Older kids may be a little skeptical that you have enough money to take care of them, but you can explain the budget to them and reassure them that their allowance is part of the plan.  High schoolers would be reassured to see that you're busting your butt in the workplace to bag the money to achieve financial independence, and then hanging out in your shorts to be successful in the world in your own way.  I think they'd rather be judged on fulfilling their own goals than to be keeping score with dollar bills.

Another reason is my job doesn't drive me crazy, maybe because I refuse to let it do so.  I get paid fairly well for a job with not much stress and steady hours.  I get every weekend off, plus every other Friday (thanks to a compressed schedule), and you can set your watch by my arrival time home every day.   

Between vacation time, every other Friday, holidays, and vacation days, I get 160 days off per year.  I like to focus on the positives of that, and not the 200 other days per year.  I have a long commute, and I'm not solving world hunger, but, that's not so bad.   If I can't be happy with 160 days off per year, I probably can't be happy with 365 days off per year.

So I focus on finding as much joy as I can every day while still working, trying to enjoy what I have without becoming consumerist, and raising my kids to grow up with a healthy attitude to work, and a sensible attitude about what money buys and what it doesn't buy.
I could blather on about "live the life you want instead of trying to live one that doesn't suck", but you can run the experiment for yourself.  See if you can get 30 days off (or a minimum of two weeks).  Treat it as an FI sabbatical.  Instead of cleaning the house and your desk, doing the yardwork, and catching up on your To Do list, treat it as the rest of your life.  Spend a day or two getting caught up on sleep, but then put some thought (and spouse discussion) into how you'd spend your day.  Get your exercise, do 20 minutes a day of chores, work on a project, spend time with the family, keep adding boxes to your Get-A-Life Tree. 

At the end of your time off, take that long commute back to the workplace and see where you stand on your FI & BS buckets.

By the way, Intel Corp used to have a very generous sabbatical program for their more senior employees.  A high percentage of them followed the same procedure during their time off, and when they returned to work it didn't take them long to realize what a toxic workplace environment they'd been marinating in.  That sabbatical benefit led to at least two ERs who I know personally, and I think it jeopardized the entire program.

I'll leave you with one more thought.  On active duty you probably had a set of emergency/casualty procedures that you trained on, held drills on, and critiqued the performance of.  You should do the same for ER.  The reason is that someday there's going to be a medical emergency or a family problem.  Maybe it'll be yours personally, or your spouse/kids, or a family elder.  You'll take leave from the job and deal with the situation.  But whatever happens, about 48 hours into that crisis you're going to find yourself questioning exactly why you're going to work when you could be living life on your own personal terms.  You may even be facing weeks or years of potential recuperation, rehab, and caregiving (hopefully not for you but possibly for that loved one).  It has a way of forcing you to define and reorganize your priorities.

Your military training and your emergency/casualty procedures got you through the operational crises.  Maybe you'll get through your personal/family crisis just fine, shake off the fallout, and scamper back to the workplace to pick up where you left off.  But I'd suggest that you'd have much more time for thoughtful analysis & discussion of this situation if you do it now, just like training & drills, instead of having to go through it when the crisis happens to you.

I think it's much better to have an ER contingency plan than to boldly proclaim that you choose to work for the rest of your life.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 08:36:33 PM by Nords »

Jamesqf

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2013, 10:48:47 PM »
Two comments.  First, if you look over at the "what you'll miss least after you retire", you'll see that almost no one has problems with the actual work.  Instead, it's all the extraneous BS they have to put up with, from commuting to meetings to office politics.  So use your financial independence to figure out ways to eliminate BS, and keep what you enjoy.

Second, I think the "spending more time with your kids" can be overdone.  American parents are already far too overprotective, for instance this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christine-grossloh/have-american-parents-got-it-all-backwards_b_3202328.html

limeandpepper

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2013, 11:28:15 PM »
Two comments.  First, if you look over at the "what you'll miss least after you retire", you'll see that almost no one has problems with the actual work.  Instead, it's all the extraneous BS they have to put up with, from commuting to meetings to office politics.  So use your financial independence to figure out ways to eliminate BS, and keep what you enjoy.

Hang on a moment... just because I don't mind the actual work as much as other elements that I dislike more, doesn't mean I don't prefer to be doing something else. Honestly, the only thing I enjoy enough to want to keep, is the rapport/friendship with some of my colleagues. I won't miss my daily work tasks at all if I leave, because there are heaps of other things I would rather be doing (which are not guaranteed to bring in money).

Another example: my man is a freelancer and almost always works from home, and thus he rarely has to commute, go to meetings, or deal with office politics. He doesn't dislike what he does, but he would still love to be rich enough to not have to work, and go travel the world instead.

totoro

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2013, 12:59:10 AM »
I too think your life sounds satisfactory and you have done well. 

Maybe it is much better than that and you are not as expressive as some.   

There are two things that might be worth a bit more focus:

1. your relationship with your wife and what you both want together
2. that you are not sure what you would fill your time with if you did not work
3. that your kids would not benefit from your time more than the example of work
 
I left an office eight years ago to work pt for myself.  Despite the fact that I needed to work less to earn more, for the first year I had a very hard time not being in my home office during working hours.  Part habit and partly guilt that I was 'being lazy'.  It actually was not necessary.

What helped me to change this? 

1. spending time with my kids
2. finding something else besides my work I felt motivated by
3. doing some self-development activities and a 'life plan'

What about doing a some type of plan together with your wife? 

davisgang90

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2013, 04:06:34 AM »
I'm with Nords on this one, you don't owe your kids either an inheritance or to work a job until 70.  If you want to do those things for yourself, that's great, but it sounds like you are already providing your kids everything they need. 

I think you might be surprised how much you enjoy being retired and able to control your schedule.

I'm at the 23 year point of active duty, so I'll be in a similar situation to you (without quite as much saved, so well done on that front) in a couple years.  My hope is to leave the DC area for somewhere with cheaper housing and fully retire unless I find something I really enjoy doing.

citrine

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2013, 06:16:01 AM »
First, congratulations on building your nest egg and doing so well :)
I do something that I really enjoy and love....but if I had amassed a substantial retirement like you have, I would stop in a heart beat and spend my time with my DH doing whatever we felt like doing.  I think your kids will rather have you around than have you working.  I am sure your wife will like to spend time with you.  Once you add some volunteering, some trips, some completion of the "honey do" list...your days will be filled!  I think you have done "enough" and it is time to play :)  Definitely check out the book that has been suggested, sit down with your wife and children, and take some time yourself to reflect on how you want to spend the next half of your life.

Villanelle

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2013, 07:13:28 AM »
My dad is a military retiree, and has retired half a dozen times in his life.  He is a guy who was built to work.  He hits 70 this year and still does consulting work, and has scratched the itch to work more by joining the HOA board, which is a very time consuming thing in his very large retirement community.

It just isn't in him not to work.  I suspect the same will be true for my husband (currently AD military, hoping to make it to at least 20 years).  We don't have kids and don't think that is in the cards for us, but I think that in 20 years, his sentiments might otherwise match yours. 

There's nothing wrong with wanting to stay in the workplace.  Sometimes I think the MMMers get so caught up in leaving the workplace that there's little room for the notion that some people don't want to quit working and they don't want to be home like MMM is.  For me, FI is about choices, and frugality is about buying those choices, not about buying myself out of the office.  Maybe that's what we'll want someday, and maybe it isn't.  As long as it is an examined choice, more power to you.   

limeandpepper

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Re: Why I Choose Not to Retire
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2013, 08:43:25 AM »
If you enjoy working then you don't need to justify your choice to continue working to anyone. But you probably still owe it to yourself to explore other stuff you could be doing instead, I think, unless you are already certain that work is really the only thing that completes you. I have no doubt there are some people who have exciting, fun and fulfilling work and it is the very fabric of their soul to keep doing what they're doing, so if you fall into that category, go for it. Have you watched the documentary "Jiro Dreams of Sushi"? The man is in his 80s, and he keeps working because he lives and breathes sushi - even when on vacation, all he thinks about is getting back to business. That is awesome but I think also quite rare. At the end of the day, people are different, so do what works for you.

By the way, I totally agree with this:

Now as a disclaimer I'm not a parent, nor do I have any kids. I understand the concept of what you are saying about dad getting up and going to work to be successful, and if that is the message you want to send to your children cool enough. I view it from the side of the kid sometimes. The kid doesn't see you being successful, they see you leaving home, and then they see you coming back home. Now you coming back home and being a positive person and happy with your life is probably the bigger and better example you are setting for your children than you being "successful."

I still remember my childhood, and it is pretty much as described here. I see my dad going to work, and then I see him coming back home. Whatever happens in between is not really something I thought about much. Sometimes, when he's gone for weeks at a time, I don't think, "Wow, dad works hard and is so successful!" Instead, I ask my mum, "When is dad coming back?" My best childhood memories are the fun we had, going fishing, hiking, rock-hunting. He is now retired and travels the world with my mum. They are happy and I am happy for them. :)