The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: Penn42 on June 03, 2018, 08:54:01 AM
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My gf's family likes throwing last minute get together's at mostly shitty restaurants. Many times I eat beforehand so I can save my monthly allotted discretionary money on food I actually want if I want it. I can tell this irks people sometimes. What is it about spending money together that's such a bonding experience? Just last night we had friends over to hang out and play games. We had alcohol/mixers in the house and still people wanted to go to a bar to buy the same drinks we could already make. I digress...
I'm also in the position of being the highest earner of all the younger adults of the family. I don't know everybody's exact situation (and I don't know what GF has told them of mine, if anything) but sometimes I feel like I'm coming off judge-y by not partaking in the ritual. I know I don't say things or otherwise act in a way that would seem that way, but I still find it a weird place to be in.
I'm sure others have felt or noticed similar things. What is there to be done about it? How did not wanting to spend-spend-spend become an actual taboo?
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Well, to be fair, going to a restaurant with people and not ordering anything is bordering on cheap not frugal. Restaurants don't exist so people can spend time in them without ordering anything, so everyone else you're with is subsidizing you being there. Essentially you're taking whatever small piece of value you receive by attending and expecting everyone else to pay for that value you've received. I'm not saying you're wrong to be bothered by the expectation that you attend regular events that require spending that doesn't match your values, just that perhaps the solution is to attend less frequently rather than attend and mooch off the other attendees.
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Essentially you're taking whatever small piece of value you receive by attending and expecting everyone else to pay for that value you've received.
That's ridiculous. It's not costing the restaurant anything unless all the tables are full with people waiting (or they offer free bread, etc). It's the same as saying that meeting someone in a Walmart parking lot is mooching if you don't go in and buy something.
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You sure its the not spending money that is awkward?
Accepting an invitation to dinner with a group of people and then refusing the eat . . . yeah that's awkward.
My BIL's diet used to be eat once a day and he didn't drink; he'd routinely go to dinner with friends, family, etc. and not have anything but a glass of water. Once the food came it would get weird.
Then there is Penn42's point, it is generally not socially acceptable to go to a location that offers primarily a service (as opposed to shopping a store w/o buying) without a cover change and not partaking. But, unless all of the tables are full and you attend moves the families table to a larger size (say 4 top to whatever the next size is) I am not sure I would go as far as to say you are costing them money by displacing a paying customer.
Try not accepting the invitation. Try offering the invitation first (to a place you like or to have them over). Try telling a white lie (saying for a down payment, trying to lose weight, food sensitivity, doctor's orders, already have plans).
Of course money is awkward especially among friends. And heck it is a way to show off.
For example, you stay in with your buddies and drink at your place and you are buying drinking (albeit at a much cheaper price for all of them). If they try and pay you it would generally be awkward (so why not pay a bartender more), if they bring cheap beer and you offer pricey 15 year single malt it would be awkward, if they never host it could be awkward, and so on. Not saying it should be, but it often is.
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Essentially you're taking whatever small piece of value you receive by attending and expecting everyone else to pay for that value you've received.
That's ridiculous. It's not costing the restaurant anything unless all the tables are full with people waiting (or they offer free bead, etc). It's the same as saying that meeting someone in a Walmart parking lot is mooching if you don't go in and buy something.
There's no fee for anyone to hang out in a Walmart parking lot. Try meeting with someone at a table in a restaurant and not ordering anything and see how long they let you stay. I wasn't saying you're mooching off the restaurant (although if you take free water then there is some small cost), I was saying you're mooching off your "dining" companions who are paying to have the right to be in the restaurant, and therefore also covering you.
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Well, to be fair, going to a restaurant with people and not ordering anything is bordering on cheap not frugal. Restaurants don't exist so people can spend time in them without ordering anything, so everyone else you're with is subsidizing you being there. Essentially you're taking whatever small piece of value you receive by attending and expecting everyone else to pay for that value you've received. I'm not saying you're wrong to be bothered by the expectation that you attend regular events that require spending that doesn't match your values, just that perhaps the solution is to attend less frequently rather than attend and mooch off the other attendees.
I can mostly see where you're coming from. I have not attended before. That's a big deal too in its own way. It's already somewhat of a big deal that GF and I are happy spending holidays apart with our own families. Therefore I try to attend the non-holiday stuff. She's got a big family and I think some of the older people feel like the mass of their congregation should pull everyone else in too, but truth be told my small family has little interest in that.
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Essentially you're taking whatever small piece of value you receive by attending and expecting everyone else to pay for that value you've received.
That's ridiculous. It's not costing the restaurant anything unless all the tables are full with people waiting (or they offer free bead, etc). It's the same as saying that meeting someone in a Walmart parking lot is mooching if you don't go in and buy something.
There's no fee for anyone to hang out in a Walmart parking lot. Try meeting with someone at a table in a restaurant and not ordering anything and see how long they let you stay. I wasn't saying you're mooching off the restaurant (although if you take free water then there is some small cost), I was saying you're mooching off your "dining" companions who are paying to have the right to be in the restaurant, and therefore also covering you.
This is a bit of an aside, but on the right to be in a restaurant thing... GF's aunt will show up to non-reservation taking establishments hours early and hold tables for 16+ people well into dinner time so that people can trickle in and all sit together. We showed up on time for the get together at this place once. It was packed. We were the first ones there besides GF's aunt who was sitting alone at 4 4-person tables pushed together waiting for everyone else to trickle in. She'd been there for over an hour she said. I can't believe they didn't kick her out. AND THEN more family shows up and asked the restaurant to put their DQ ice cream cake in the freezer for them! That was about as embarrassed I have ever been.
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The restaurant is making a profit off the people who are actually eating, and it's not costing them anything to have an extra person at the table who isn't eating. What if you were to convince everyone to go to someone's home or park for example, then the restaurant wouldn't make anything at all off your group. It's a pretty small price (if any price at all) for the restaurant to allow you to sit at the table with a group of paying patrons.
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You are attending the family event....what ever it may be and not re enforcing their behaviour. By not eating you are calling them out on something. Probably their bad choice in dining. Next time eat a small appy and see if it makes a difference.
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Like it or not, the bonding activity you are being invited to is eating and drinking together. It's the same as if they had an activity to get together at an ice rink or a ropes course, and you didn't want to pay the charge to participate in the activity. That's your prerogative, but it is, in fact, at least partially declining the proposed social activity.
This is the same idea as work-related networking events around drinks and cocktails. If one stands around with nothing in their hands, it's awkward (even if all drinks are 100% free) because the activity is drinking together. It makes a huge difference to just be holding something festive-looking in your hands in those scenarios, like a club soda with a slice of lime, so no one will be jarred by the "non-participation."
All in all, I just mentally re-frame these things from "waste of money I wouldn't expend otherwise" to "I am choosing to purchase a luxury good, which is the cost of admission to a social event with people I care about." I buy an appetizer or small salad to pick at (you can say you're dieting/had a late lunch/whatever). In the meantime, invite people over more often, explicitly labeling the activity as a dinner party or BBQ or games & drinks (as it would be fairly rude to suggest leaving such a defined activity for an outside venue). Sometimes they'll suggest going out, but lots of times you'll enjoy staying in and save money.
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There's no fee for anyone to hang out in a Walmart parking lot. Try meeting with someone at a table in a restaurant and not ordering anything and see how long they let you stay. I wasn't saying you're mooching off the restaurant (although if you take free water then there is some small cost), I was saying you're mooching off your "dining" companions who are paying to have the right to be in the restaurant, and therefore also covering you.
I have done this many times when a restaurant isn't busy, I meet with a friend and we chat for an hour and leave. Never had any issue. The server comes over, asks if we want anything, and we politely decline.
The longest was probably 4 or 5 hours as a friend and I played cards until the restaurant closed, but they never gave us a hard time. Of course if they ever did ask us to leave we would immediately, but that's never happened to me yet.
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It's b/c people are sheep and insecure, they want others to follow along with whatever they are doing as to validate their choices.
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I definitely notice that there absolutely is a perceived bonding element to the act of spending money as a group even if what you’re all spending money on isn’t that great. I *think* it’s aboit showing that you value the group enough to waste money to be together. Like the whole “we knownypu have lots of airline choices, thanks for choosing to fly with us” announcement after a flight. Your friends/family knownyou have other options on which to spend your money - and the fact that you would clearly rather spend it in another way probably irks them because they perceive it as you not valuing them. There may be ways around this, ordering a side salad or inviting them over, etc. But more than likely, the fact that you actually do have different financial priorities will always stick out.
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There's no fee for anyone to hang out in a Walmart parking lot. Try meeting with someone at a table in a restaurant and not ordering anything and see how long they let you stay. I wasn't saying you're mooching off the restaurant (although if you take free water then there is some small cost), I was saying you're mooching off your "dining" companions who are paying to have the right to be in the restaurant, and therefore also covering you.
I have done this many times when a restaurant isn't busy, I meet with a friend and we chat for an hour and leave. Never had any issue. The server comes over, asks if we want anything, and we politely decline.
The longest was probably 4 or 5 hours as a friend and I played cards until the restaurant closed, but they never gave us a hard time. Of course if they ever did ask us to leave we would immediately, but that's never happened to me yet.
I'm stunned! I can't imagine any restaurant letting this happen (except Starbucks). Are you in the US? Maybe its different in other countries.
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This is a bit of an aside, but on the right to be in a restaurant thing... GF's aunt will show up to non-reservation taking establishments hours early and hold tables for 16+ people well into dinner time so that people can trickle in and all sit together. We showed up on time for the get together at this place once. It was packed. We were the first ones there besides GF's aunt who was sitting alone at 4 4-person tables pushed together waiting for everyone else to trickle in. She'd been there for over an hour she said. I can't believe they didn't kick her out. AND THEN more family shows up and asked the restaurant to put their DQ ice cream cake in the freezer for them! That was about as embarrassed I have ever been.
This is why restaurants often won't seat you (especially large parties) until all members of the party are there.
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There's no fee for anyone to hang out in a Walmart parking lot. Try meeting with someone at a table in a restaurant and not ordering anything and see how long they let you stay. I wasn't saying you're mooching off the restaurant (although if you take free water then there is some small cost), I was saying you're mooching off your "dining" companions who are paying to have the right to be in the restaurant, and therefore also covering you.
I have done this many times when a restaurant isn't busy, I meet with a friend and we chat for an hour and leave. Never had any issue. The server comes over, asks if we want anything, and we politely decline.
The longest was probably 4 or 5 hours as a friend and I played cards until the restaurant closed, but they never gave us a hard time. Of course if they ever did ask us to leave we would immediately, but that's never happened to me yet.
I'm stunned! I can't imagine any restaurant letting this happen (except Starbucks). Are you in the US? Maybe its different in other countries.
Yeah, I'm a bit surprised someone would do this. Are you in the U.S. or a different country? In the U.S., the servers make their tip money (which is most of their pay) by serving people who are sitting at their assigned tables for the day. You are taking up a table that is a source of their income, so I hope you at least leave $10 for taking up the space.
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I would buy a appetizer or soup or salad. To take up a table and not buy anything is horrible in the states.
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I have experienced this a few times, when out with friends.
You know what? Fuck all of that - go for one or two drinks, no buying rounds of drinks, say you ate earlier.
Keep your money in your pocket, and stop giving it away to people!
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You are attending the family event....what ever it may be and not re enforcing their behaviour. By not eating you are calling them out on something. Probably their bad choice in dining. Next time eat a small appy and see if it makes a difference.
I'll begrudgingly admit this is good strategy. Time to mustache up and bite the bullet I suppose.
"I am choosing to purchase a luxury good, which is the cost of admission to a social event with people I care about."
Here's another good mental adustment I should work on making.
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There's no fee for anyone to hang out in a Walmart parking lot. Try meeting with someone at a table in a restaurant and not ordering anything and see how long they let you stay. I wasn't saying you're mooching off the restaurant (although if you take free water then there is some small cost), I was saying you're mooching off your "dining" companions who are paying to have the right to be in the restaurant, and therefore also covering you.
I have done this many times when a restaurant isn't busy, I meet with a friend and we chat for an hour and leave. Never had any issue. The server comes over, asks if we want anything, and we politely decline.
The longest was probably 4 or 5 hours as a friend and I played cards until the restaurant closed, but they never gave us a hard time. Of course if they ever did ask us to leave we would immediately, but that's never happened to me yet.
At least in the US, waiters/waitresses are normally assigned tables, and the hostess takes patrons to the tables based on which waiter/waitress has the fewest patrons. If you aren't eating and the restaurant has open tables you might not cost the restaurant anything, but you could be denying that waiter/waitress a table and the tips that come with it.
If I'm at a restaurant and I spend a long time at a table I'll tip extra to make sure my waiter/waitress is taken care of.
Solution: Just order an appetizer/salad as your meal. You can still enjoy the company and likely keep your bill to $10 or less.
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@Penn42 Good on you for posting this question and nice that you're rethinking your views. Your own POV is important and totally get where you're coming from with regards to paying for a meal in a crappy restaurant you're not really interested in.
My own local family is big on potluck-y type of things. Sometimes in one or another's home, but often in the nicer weather, a local park.The one we like most is along the river. Someone gets there early and stakes out a table, or group of tables, depending on the size of the crowd. One party is tasked with bringing tableware, maybe a tablecloth and also cups and ice. Someone else brings some kind of main, like pre made chicken or fish. There's bbq grills if we want to do that. Others bring things like salads, desserts, maybe a cake if we're noting a a birthday or graduation. There are volleyball courts, so someone brings a ball and we can do that and we also can play croquet on the grassy lawn. It's fun and affordable for everyone and easy to clean up afterward.
Truly the idea is just to get together and be social and connect.
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Lighten up. Either don't go, order something cheap, or suggest a restaurant that you'll eat at.
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I have a group of friends who like to go out for dinner after our evening choir rehearsals. I also have a significant food allergy that makes most restaurant food a figurative minefield, plus I eat dinner before rehearsal so I don’t need to eat again. However, it seems worth a few bucks to at least order a glass of wine or vodka soda and participate in the whole shared-table camaraderie. I don’t make a big deal about it, and no one seems to mind (including the servers; I tip well).
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There's no fee for anyone to hang out in a Walmart parking lot. Try meeting with someone at a table in a restaurant and not ordering anything and see how long they let you stay. I wasn't saying you're mooching off the restaurant (although if you take free water then there is some small cost), I was saying you're mooching off your "dining" companions who are paying to have the right to be in the restaurant, and therefore also covering you.
I have done this many times when a restaurant isn't busy, I meet with a friend and we chat for an hour and leave. Never had any issue. The server comes over, asks if we want anything, and we politely decline.
The longest was probably 4 or 5 hours as a friend and I played cards until the restaurant closed, but they never gave us a hard time. Of course if they ever did ask us to leave we would immediately, but that's never happened to me yet.
I'm stunned! I can't imagine any restaurant letting this happen (except Starbucks). Are you in the US? Maybe its different in other countries.
Yeah, I'm a bit surprised someone would do this. Are you in the U.S. or a different country? In the U.S., the servers make their tip money (which is most of their pay) by serving people who are sitting at their assigned tables for the day. You are taking up a table that is a source of their income, so I hope you at least leave $10 for taking up the space.
Yes, I live in the US and done this in multiple states that I've lived in. Often at slow times there's only one person waiting tables, and I wasn't there they would have to do the same amount of work for the same amount of tip (none for both).
Several times I've seen people do this during the busy lunch rush as well, and that seems rude as other paying customers may want to use that table. I've never seen them asked or urged to leave, though.
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There's no fee for anyone to hang out in a Walmart parking lot. Try meeting with someone at a table in a restaurant and not ordering anything and see how long they let you stay. I wasn't saying you're mooching off the restaurant (although if you take free water then there is some small cost), I was saying you're mooching off your "dining" companions who are paying to have the right to be in the restaurant, and therefore also covering you.
I have done this many times when a restaurant isn't busy, I meet with a friend and we chat for an hour and leave. Never had any issue. The server comes over, asks if we want anything, and we politely decline.
The longest was probably 4 or 5 hours as a friend and I played cards until the restaurant closed, but they never gave us a hard time. Of course if they ever did ask us to leave we would immediately, but that's never happened to me yet.
I'm stunned! I can't imagine any restaurant letting this happen (except Starbucks). Are you in the US? Maybe its different in other countries.
Yeah, I'm a bit surprised someone would do this. Are you in the U.S. or a different country? In the U.S., the servers make their tip money (which is most of their pay) by serving people who are sitting at their assigned tables for the day. You are taking up a table that is a source of their income, so I hope you at least leave $10 for taking up the space.
Yes, I live in the US and done this in multiple states that I've lived in. Often at slow times there's only one person waiting tables, and I wasn't there they would have to do the same amount of work for the same amount of tip (none for both).
Several times I've seen people do this during the busy lunch rush as well, and that seems rude as other paying customers may want to use that table. I've never seen them asked or urged to leave, though.
You play cards in restaurants for hours often enough to have done it in multiple states? That's really strange dude, really strange.
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I think everyone on this forum probably qualifies as strange by society's standards, so I'll take that as a compliment.
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I think everyone on this forum probably qualifies as strange by society's standards, so I'll take that as a compliment.
It's strange by this forum's standards too. Most of us have at least a little self-awareness.
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You go out to eat together - you break bread, that's the bonding part:)
Just order an appetizer and a water.
Sometimes the younger crowd splits a dinner instead and there are usually coupons being traded, like a free appetizer if you order an entree.
Bring a coupon - have someone else put you on their check and voila - freebie!
Here's another perspective, if you are too busy or getting on in years, it is much easier to have the birthday at a restaurant. It isn't always about spending, but about having someone else deal with all the work involved in a party.
We do a fair amount of birthday celebrations in restaurants, half the time I don't care for the place either, but I go to socialize. When it is your birthday you get to choose the place:) or invite them to the house.
LOL about being embarrassed about the ice cream cake - lots of people do that. You buy a birthday cake and bring it to the restaurant, they'll keep it cold while you have dinner. It's all good.
The nice thing I've discovered lately is that the younger crowd - now in their twenties - has begun to choose different cool places, like a brewery restaurant or places we'd probably never find out about, because we don't go out to eat that much.
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I think everyone on this forum probably qualifies as strange by society's standards, so I'll take that as a compliment.
It's strange by this forum's standards too. Most of us have at least a little self-awareness.
I'm trying to think of how that can be anything other than a deliberate insult. I'm glad most of the other forum members here aren't bigots.
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I think everyone on this forum probably qualifies as strange by society's standards, so I'll take that as a compliment.
It's strange by this forum's standards too. Most of us have at least a little self-awareness.
I'm trying to think of how that can be anything other than a deliberate insult. I'm glad most of the other forum members here aren't bigots.
So far zero people have agreed that your behavior is appropriate. As such, it appears that this forum is filled with people who are intolerant of self-absorbed folks who think they are entitled to sit for hours on end in a for-profit establishment. So yeah, we're all "bigots" of your selfish behavior.
Maybe you should reconsider your actions when you can't find a single person that thinks they're okay? Nah, instead, they're all bigots! Excellent logic.
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I think everyone on this forum probably qualifies as strange by society's standards, so I'll take that as a compliment.
It's strange by this forum's standards too. Most of us have at least a little self-awareness.
I'm trying to think of how that can be anything other than a deliberate insult. I'm glad most of the other forum members here aren't bigots.
So far zero people have agreed that your behavior is appropriate. As such, it appears that this forum is filled with people who are intolerant of self-absorbed folks who think they are entitled to sit for hours on end in a for-profit establishment. So yeah, we're all "bigots" of your selfish behavior.
Maybe you should reconsider your actions when you can't find a single person that thinks they're okay? Nah, instead, they're all bigots! Excellent logic.
I agree completely. My mom owned a restaurant for 20+ years. I was there nearly every day for one reason or another. I could never imagine people just “hanging out and playing cards” for hours. To be honest - I feel like it’d kind of look bad on the business, as a place for people to go and just “hang out.”
Not being asked to leave does not constitute acceptance. In this day and age the potential for negative reviews may not be worth it.
My wife and I have a “date night” nearly every week at a restaurant. I don’t believe I’ve ever witnessed anyone just blatantly sitting and not ordering, aside from maybe waiting for someone.
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I think everyone on this forum probably qualifies as strange by society's standards, so I'll take that as a compliment.
It's strange by this forum's standards too. Most of us have at least a little self-awareness.
I'm trying to think of how that can be anything other than a deliberate insult. I'm glad most of the other forum members here aren't bigots.
So far zero people have agreed that your behavior is appropriate. As such, it appears that this forum is filled with people who are intolerant of self-absorbed folks who think they are entitled to sit for hours on end in a for-profit establishment. So yeah, we're all "bigots" of your selfish behavior.
Maybe you should reconsider your actions when you can't find a single person that thinks they're okay? Nah, instead, they're all bigots! Excellent logic.
I don't have any problem with disagreement. Perhaps I morally owe these restaurants thousands of dollars (collectively) for the privilege of walking in through their door. That's something we could have discussed as adults without calling people self-absorbed or without a hint of self awareness.
Since good faith discussion is not on the table, I guess I will leave the thread and look for the ignore user function for the first time on this forum.
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I think everyone on this forum probably qualifies as strange by society's standards, so I'll take that as a compliment.
It's strange by this forum's standards too. Most of us have at least a little self-awareness.
I'm trying to think of how that can be anything other than a deliberate insult. I'm glad most of the other forum members here aren't bigots.
So far zero people have agreed that your behavior is appropriate. As such, it appears that this forum is filled with people who are intolerant of self-absorbed folks who think they are entitled to sit for hours on end in a for-profit establishment. So yeah, we're all "bigots" of your selfish behavior.
Maybe you should reconsider your actions when you can't find a single person that thinks they're okay? Nah, instead, they're all bigots! Excellent logic.
I don't have any problem with disagreement. Perhaps I morally owe these restaurants thousands of dollars (collectively) for the privilege of walking in through their door. That's something we could have discussed as adults without calling people self-absorbed or without a hint of self awareness.
Since good faith discussion is not on the table, I guess I will leave the thread and look for the ignore user function for the first time on this forum.
Let me help you out then. If you click on your "Profile" button, the last option under the Modify Profile section is "Buddies/Ignore List". Then you can click on "edit ignore list" and add my username.
It seems a bit hypocritical to ignore posts from everyone who has ever disagreed with you while simultaneously calling them bigots though. Especially on something that is so clearly shitty behavior, that not a single person will agree that you're doing the right thing and multiple people have called you out on it. However, I'm happy to take the brunt of your childish tantrum if you actually change your behavior. Have a nice life!
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Essentially you're taking whatever small piece of value you receive by attending and expecting everyone else to pay for that value you've received.
That's ridiculous. It's not costing the restaurant anything unless all the tables are full with people waiting (or they offer free bead, etc). It's the same as saying that meeting someone in a Walmart parking lot is mooching if you don't go in and buy something.
@terran, where is this place you speak of that offers free beads?
See, your cheapskate ass is sitting in the restaurant's chair, at the restaurant's table, enjoying the restaurant's utilities and facilities. In effect, you are preventing them from making a fair return on their investment. It ain't free to sit there, and anyone who thinks so is...um, not thoughtful? That's the nicest way I can think of to say it. And your parking lot analogy is weak, too. My Target, for example, issues (completely enforceable) parking tickets for any car parked there for over three hours. Wanna guess why?
At the very least, get your own check, order something small, tip well, and suck it up or...stay home.
As for the OP, you might try set a budget line item for this specific kind of spending and when it's gone, its gone. You can then say, "Remember when we went to Red Robin and Applebee's and Olive Garden? I spent all my allotted money there."
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I would have thought ordering a drink and getting free refills for hours would be rude, but that's preferable to not taking up the server's time?
I fixed my "bead" typo, thanks for pointing it out!
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I would have thought ordering a drink and getting free refills for hours would be rude, but that's preferable to not taking up the server's time?
I fixed my "bead" typo, thanks for pointing it out!
I didn't say anything about free refills, so no, that doesn't mitigate anything.
While I'm back , I'll add that I hadn't read your exchange with Eric before. Had I done so, I surely would have said, "What he said." Don't ask for help then argue with the responses. Absolutely not a Stoic Virtue. If you don't have any idea what I'm referring to, this might be the wrong place for you.
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I have done this many times when a restaurant isn't busy, I meet with a friend and we chat for an hour and leave. Never had any issue. The server comes over, asks if we want anything, and we politely decline.
The longest was probably 4 or 5 hours as a friend and I played cards until the restaurant closed, but they never gave us a hard time. Of course if they ever did ask us to leave we would immediately, but that's never happened to me yet.
I can see where the other posters are coming from. I mean I don't personally see a big deal if you aren't getting strange looks and no one asks you to leave, but it's also not something I'd do either so it's tough for me to say whether what you're doing is wrong or not. Definitely not illegal. Borderline morally wrong? Not sure.
Technically, you are taking something from them which is the right to be in their space. Usually for that right you will purchase something from them and thus contribute to their overall ability to pay for the building. So yes, in that regard, it's an entitled mentality to use their space as a public library or office space. I think this is primarily the reason I wouldn't use their space without compensating them simply for the fact that space is not free and it shouldn't be free.
But in the spirit of remaining open minded, you're also not costing them anything if you're not in the way of paying customers and they don't seem to really care that you're doing it. One could argue that your presence there gives the appearance of the restaurant getting more business than it actually is, thus drawing in more customers. I mean, to be fair, no one's going to tell someone to get off a mall bench if they found out the person hadn't bought anything. It's like that, but on a much smaller and personal scale.
Again, not something I'd ever consider doing, and I'm not saying you're totally in the right or wrong.
Don't ask for help then argue with the responses.
To be fair, they aren't the OP and didn't ask for help.
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I would have thought ordering a drink and getting free refills for hours would be rude, but that's preferable to not taking up the server's time?
I fixed my "bead" typo, thanks for pointing it out!
I didn't say anything about free refills, so no, that doesn't mitigate anything.
While I'm back , I'll add that I hadn't read your exchange with Eric before. Had I done so, I surely would have said, "What he said." Don't ask for help then argue with the responses. Absolutely not a Stoic Virtue. If you don't have any idea what I'm referring to, this might be the wrong place for you.
I think you have me confused with someone else, I haven't asked for anything in this thread (other than civility, which seems to be in short supply around here).
I don't adhere to Stoicism, so if that disqualifies me from being around here I can certainly go. Your posts don't strike me as containing a great amount of temperance, though, even if you are correct
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Can't you just say you're sharing with your GF? Or order appetizers and "offer the appetizer" while discretely not eating any yourself? It would be cheaper than a meal possibly and you won't have to eat the food, and you won't be weird. Triple-win.
I know what you meant though. Every time you go out to eat, you could spend $20 easy...more if drinks are involved. And it seems that's what people seem to like to spend their money on. I personally don't like spending my free money at restaurants and bars. I have more fun being able to relax and kick my feet up at someone's house, or my own house, play games, not have to worry about driving for some time, being able to talk to EVERYONE, and not just who is within shouting distance. Plus there is always confusion with the bill...bleh.
Small group, nice restaurant that at least offers a new/different experience, once in a while...ok. But who hasn't eaten a fricken Applebees.
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[Snip]
Don't ask for help then argue with the responses.
To be fair, they aren't the OP and didn't ask for help.
Point taken. However, this is a conversation with multiple people. You couldn't see who I was looking at while I was speaking? Lol ;-).
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I would have thought ordering a drink and getting free refills for hours would be rude, but that's preferable to not taking up the server's time?
I fixed my "bead" typo, thanks for pointing it out!
I didn't say anything about free refills, so no, that doesn't mitigate anything.
While I'm back , I'll add that I hadn't read your exchange with Eric before. Had I done so, I surely would have said, "What he said." Don't ask for help then argue with the responses. Absolutely not a Stoic Virtue. If you don't have any idea what I'm referring to, this might be the wrong place for you.
I think you have me confused with someone else, I haven't asked for anything in this thread (other than civility, which seems to be in short supply around here).
I don't adhere to Stoicism, so if that disqualifies me from being around here I can certainly go. Your posts don't strike me as containing a great amount of temperance, though, even if you are correct
You don't need to go; there's plenty to be learned and shared here. You should be aware that our leader is the creator and bestower of facepunches, and words like complainypants and consumer sukkas. He swears prodigiously and encourages and apparently appreciates the same from others. He is a huge proponent of Stocism, as am I, albeit to a less advanced degree. Interestingly, if you consider the primary definition of temperance*, he's that, too, at least as far as eating is concerned. Maybe a bit less so with delicious home- or craft-brewed alcoholic beverages...
*tem·per·ance
ˈtemp(ə)rəns
noun
abstinence from alcoholic drink.
"the temperance movement"
synonyms: teetotalism, abstinence, abstention, sobriety, self-restraint; prohibition
"a strict advocate of temperance"
moderation or self-restraint, especially in eating and drinking.
Thanks for your comment, @VoteCthulu. Good food for thought.
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I don't think it should be a problem when one person in a large group at a restaurant doesn't order anything. Do you friends understand that you want to hang out with them but don't want to spend money, and the events they set up put those things in conflict?
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The thing I'm thinking of, is something I learned in college: When you are invited out among the less well to do, and you go out but don't order anything, this is actually a secret message. "I can't afford to feed myself, but I'm too proud to beg. Please insist on ordering me a meal, and pay for it myself."
I received multiple free meals before someone took me aside and explained this. Your friends may be acting so awkward because they think that you are begging for food, but that does not make sense for what else they know about you.
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I received multiple free meals before someone took me aside and explained this. Your friends may be acting so awkward because they think that you are begging for food, but that does not make sense for what else they know about you.
If you read the OP, you'd see that it's his GF's family, not his friends, that he goes out with and orders nothing.
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My SO and I always say we're splitting food/ drinks, even a cheap app., no one cares and we're "participating". I managed a pretty high end restaurant, on the beach, in Santa Monica for a few years and people would come in "just to enjoy the view" sometimes. If we weren't busy, we just ignored them, talked about them behind their back, but ignored them. If we were busy we would tell them they had to order. We never cared if one person in a group didn't order anything, happened all the time. Just my experience, your mileage may vary.
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I think everyone on this forum probably qualifies as strange by society's standards, so I'll take that as a compliment.
It's strange by this forum's standards too. Most of us have at least a little self-awareness.
I'm trying to think of how that can be anything other than a deliberate insult. I'm glad most of the other forum members here aren't bigots.
So far zero people have agreed that your behavior is appropriate. As such, it appears that this forum is filled with people who are intolerant of self-absorbed folks who think they are entitled to sit for hours on end in a for-profit establishment. So yeah, we're all "bigots" of your selfish behavior.
Maybe you should reconsider your actions when you can't find a single person that thinks they're okay? Nah, instead, they're all bigots! Excellent logic.
OOOh where do I pick up my bigot pin?!? Count me in among the people that believe that VoteCtulhu is a meanie-dumb dumb.
Dude. Seriously: you can't just do what you want and expect the cultural norms of the world to change around you. It's like tipping. In the US, it's very very normal to tip at restaurants, meanwhile there are many other countries where tipping is a sign of disrespect. In this case, yes, sitting at a restaurant, not ordering anything, and staying for hours is not the right thing to do.
I hope your reaction is that you roll your eyes, think about it a little more, realize that literally everyone else is right, you're wrong, and that you never do something like that again (in America).
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You should be aware that our leader is the creator and bestower of facepunches, and words like complainypants and consumer sukkas. He swears prodigiously and encourages and apparently appreciates the same from others.
I don't have any problem with profanity, vigorous debate, or face punches. I do think there's a wide difference between a post that says "You have no self-awareness" and one that says "Your actions exhibit a lack of self awareness you asshole, because your use of the table and chair costs the restaurant $0.10 per hour over an empty table due to wear and tear, which they should be compensated for by at least buying a $1 coffee".
The former is simply a personal insult, and the latter is a facepunch that may or may not be correct.
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/\ The above is why you should all put me on your "ignore" list. That way you won't have to risk suffering such egregious insults to your person like "lacks self-awareness". I'm sort of surprised VoteCthulu hasn't taken his own life after enduring this horrendous public dressing down by someone with a complete lack of tact or filter such as myself. Can you even imagine how terrible it must be to be told that you lack self-awareness? Don't delay! Ignore me now to save yourselves from even the slightest chance of having to also bear such a terrible fate. lol
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So wait, VoteChuthlu is upset that he wasn't called an asshole, and was simply called unaware? and when did the self-unaware become a protected class that "bigots" just love to discriminate against??
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So wait, VoteChuthlu is upset that he wasn't called an asshole, and was simply called unaware? and when did the self-unaware become a protected class that "bigots" just love to discriminate against??
Yes, I am upset about people posting solely to insult me.
Protected classes and discrimination have nothing to do with the bigotry I think was expressed. Attacking people for holding beliefs rather than attacking those beliefs perhaps has a better name, if so please let me know so I can be more accurate in the future.
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I thought these types of personal attacks were grounds for banning in the agreement?
If VoteCthulu has a desire to save money, I assumed he was welcome.
I've seen people at McDs many times not spend money, shave in the bathroom, etc. It is the business's choice to allow or disallow this. This wouldn't occur at a high end restaurant due to their process for allowing people in. They would likely ask you to leave.
I'd feel more comfortable playing cards in somebody's basement, a park, or a mall but that doesn't mean I need to gang in on attacking someone for being different.
He's not doing it in front of a fire station where it would actually be a danger.
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I am not a big contributor here but I am really surprised at the responses on this thread. If the table was full and others were ordering the restaurant would be just fine. It would be a diff story if everyone just ordered soup and took up the table for hours.
However, it is a big awkward in a group to just sit there with a glass of water. I agree with some others, just order an appetizer or a small salad. The few bucks spent is worth the time with friends.
I am not mustachian as some on these boards. I am trying to be smarter with my spending but there is a balance.
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See post 11. That’s the one that we’re all harping on. In a big group, if he’s the only one not ordering, it’s not necessarily ideal socially (at least order a garden salad), but it’s not the worst thing ever. Him saying that he’s staying 4-5 hours and not ordering anything? That’s what’s wrong. The thread has been derailed since then.
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I'm in this situation quite a bit with friends. I want to see them but think it's not acceptable to hang out at a restaurant w/o ordering. So, I just do a 15-20 min stop-by. I hangout and say hi then I leave. Still get to see my friends but I don't take up space that could be for a paying customer.
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Well that kind of went off the rails. Just to be clear, since my post kind of set this whole thing in motion, my intention was never to start a debate about whether not ordering anything harms the restaurant. My point was that the people who do order something have paid the common socially accepted "price of admission" for being in a restaurant, so I think it's reasonable for them to feel a little "put out" if someone in the group decides not to pay their admission, but rather expects to "slip in" with other paying customers.
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I worked as a waitress in high school/college. I can't imagine someone coming in and playing cards and not ordering. Restaurants are not public places. As a waitress I would have felt very uncomfortable if someone did this. I would have felt compelled to keep asking them if I could get them something. I dont think any of the waitstaff really cares if one person in a large party does not order. That happens enough and as long as the other people order and tip. If the restaurant was completely empty - we often used that time to do stuff ourselves like sit and fold napkins or polish silver. Or even just goof around on a really slow night. Certainly wouldn't want people sitting there for hours playing cards. I am pretty sure we would have asked them very politely to leave if we figured out they had no intention of ordering anything. I think sitting at a fast food restaurant or the food court at the mall is a bit different .
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Dining in the company of someone who is conspicuously choosing not to dine IS socially awkward, in the manner of being in a meeting in which one person displays markedly different body language from everyone else but, if asked, insist that everything is just fine, and in a social situation like that of the original post I'd order something small to eat to avoid drawing unwanted attention to myself.
I made a conscious decision to deal with the fact that I find it uncomfortable to eat a meal in the company of someone who is choosing not to eat anything at all, for it's a common situation among the people I work with - some of my colleagues are serial dieters and will come on nights out but not eat because they're being rigid about controlling their food intake. Some people also get very anxious about eating in public. Whether someone who's not me or one of my children else eats or not is none of my business and it's unhelpful for me to have an emotional response to it.
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There's no fee for anyone to hang out in a Walmart parking lot. Try meeting with someone at a table in a restaurant and not ordering anything and see how long they let you stay. I wasn't saying you're mooching off the restaurant (although if you take free water then there is some small cost), I was saying you're mooching off your "dining" companions who are paying to have the right to be in the restaurant, and therefore also covering you.
I have done this many times when a restaurant isn't busy, I meet with a friend and we chat for an hour and leave. Never had any issue. The server comes over, asks if we want anything, and we politely decline.
The longest was probably 4 or 5 hours as a friend and I played cards until the restaurant closed, but they never gave us a hard time. Of course if they ever did ask us to leave we would immediately, but that's never happened to me yet.
I'm stunned! I can't imagine any restaurant letting this happen (except Starbucks). Are you in the US? Maybe its different in other countries.
Yeah, I'm a bit surprised someone would do this. Are you in the U.S. or a different country? In the U.S., the servers make their tip money (which is most of their pay) by serving people who are sitting at their assigned tables for the day. You are taking up a table that is a source of their income, so I hope you at least leave $10 for taking up the space.
There's a difference between letting you do it and being happy with it. The restaurant definitely discourages it but at an individual waittress or waiter has too much to risk by asking you to leave, especially if there is any hint of perceived stereotyping. They will be annoyed by having to still cover the area and ask if you need anything every hour and it fills a spot in their area so other waiter/waittresses get more customers.
But what are they supposed to do? Take the risk of asking you to leave and them causing a scene, even lying to your manager that you they were planning on ordering something but waiting on other people, etc.
Honestly, the only acceptable place for this would be a common space food court.
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re the derailment....
Do people need all restaurants to put up signs that say 'Tables are for paying customers only'?
I mean is that necessary? Do we need to be told that? Is this not common sense?
Just because someone CAN do something doesn't mean they SHOULD do something.
If one's argument is 'someone didn't confront me about it', you just might have an entitlement and/or respect problem to work on.
Oh I'm sorry...I didn't know I shouldn't pick my nose and wipe it on the window....No one said anything to me about it. I mean why can't I do that? The rain will wash it off... Its not costing anybody anything...
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Taking up a table costs the owners money. We did this in college in the late 80s to protest Cracker Barrel's anti-gay hiring practices. We had a coffee drink-in where we took up several tables and ordered coffee. (We took good care of the waiters though). So, no, I don't agree with sitting at a table playing cards.
Not ordering as part of a group is a different matter. I've been in that situation a few times where either there were no low-carb choices or I was on a fast so I just had an iced tea and socialized. Similarly, I don't drink alcohol anymore but it doesn't bother me to be around other people drinking, so it was a similar vibe to going out with people on a "happy hour" and having a club soda.
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MOD NOTE: Stop being rude to each other.
I don't know why I'm having to say this. 🙄
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Not the exact situation, I get in trouble with the SO because I don't want to go out to eat with her and her kids (both over 18 if that makes a difference). The kids always want to go to Applebee's, Buca di Beppo, Chinese buffet, Olive Garden, etc. It's always over a hundred dollars for 4 people. I am not a food snob by any means, but I do not like the food at these places. She says it's about spending time together, well, when we don't go out to eat we eat just about every dinner together. If I do go, and end up paying, I think to myself, this costs more than I make in a day, I really would have liked to not work a day instead.
The other day we met up with some friends for food, I don't know why you have to meet friends at a restaurant. They were saying they owe vet bills on credit cards with 29% interest rates. I'm sure at 20 dollars a person we could have just cooked food for half as much and ended up with twice the food.
I don't get that much more out of a 20 dollar meal than I do a 10 dollar meal. I do the groupon thing so I can try to make her happy by eating out, but of course then it becomes a, well you have a groupon, that means we can order appetizers etc.
I guess I'm just a cheap person in general, going out to eat seems like one of the bigger useless expenses to me.
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Why don’t you offer to cook for people? I’m not super fond of eating out, and the alternative is that I toss some chicken and rice into the crockpot.
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When I was paying my way through college, I frequently went out with friends and only ordered a side salad or hot tea. People didn't seem to notice. Years later, though, a friend who had racked up considerable credit card debt because of those meals said she'd wished she had followed my example, so I guess I wasn't as subtle as I thought.
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I've seen people at McDs many times not spend money, shave in the bathroom, etc. It is the business's choice to allow or disallow this. This wouldn't occur at a high end restaurant due to their process for allowing people in. They would likely ask you to leave.
I'd feel more comfortable playing cards in somebody's basement, a park, or a mall but that doesn't mean I need to gang in on attacking someone for being different.
He's not doing it in front of a fire station where it would actually be a danger.
The business' choice? No. There is no "The Business Officer" available at all hours of the day with nothing better to do than tell people not to shave in the bathroom. If there is any social compact in play, it's that you're daring a cashier or waitstaff to brave an encounter over behavior you shouldn't be engaged in. The public is not entitled to the use of business property "until and unless chased away." Places from small restaurants to libraries have to deal with this routinely now - ask how comfortable and appropriate it is for the employees who have to deal with it.
It's great and all that VoteCthulu was willing to give up the table, but without telepathy, the waitstaff won't know what sort of response they'll get until they take the dare and risk a confrontation (even without a purchase, the loitering party can punish with a negative review, and the staff know this).
OP: The burger for 7.95 and a water isn't a big deal at a table of 10 ordering entrees. It may also do wonders if you want to host your own events and suggest a potluck or something. Is it possible to let people know you're focused on saving money, so you can't do every dinner, but you don't want to skip out on company with them? I find that people are usually pretty understanding when you explain how their company is valued if you have to occasionally decline.
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Yeah, I try to proactively schedule dinners at my place. Ironically, it probably costs me more but I'm ok with it. Rather pay $100 worth of good food for a dozen people than have to pay $60 bucks for just me and my wife drinking crappy food. Figure I make it up in social capital and getting invited to future boat rides or spare tickets to an event.
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Yeah, I try to proactively schedule dinners at my place. Ironically, it probably costs me more but I'm ok with it. Rather pay $100 worth of good food for a dozen people than have to pay $60 bucks for just me and my wife drinking crappy food. Figure I make it up in social capital and getting invited to future boat rides or spare tickets to an event.
What works for us is that we commit to making the meat, and ask folks to bring sides/drinks/desserts. A value pack of chicken plus sauce/seasoning ingredients is like $10, so not bad for a small dinner party if we're hosting.
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There's no fee for anyone to hang out in a Walmart parking lot. Try meeting with someone at a table in a restaurant and not ordering anything and see how long they let you stay. I wasn't saying you're mooching off the restaurant (although if you take free water then there is some small cost), I was saying you're mooching off your "dining" companions who are paying to have the right to be in the restaurant, and therefore also covering you.
I have done this many times when a restaurant isn't busy, I meet with a friend and we chat for an hour and leave. Never had any issue. The server comes over, asks if we want anything, and we politely decline.
The longest was probably 4 or 5 hours as a friend and I played cards until the restaurant closed, but they never gave us a hard time. Of course if they ever did ask us to leave we would immediately, but that's never happened to me yet.
You really ought to tip if you do this.
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There's no fee for anyone to hang out in a Walmart parking lot. Try meeting with someone at a table in a restaurant and not ordering anything and see how long they let you stay. I wasn't saying you're mooching off the restaurant (although if you take free water then there is some small cost), I was saying you're mooching off your "dining" companions who are paying to have the right to be in the restaurant, and therefore also covering you.
I have done this many times when a restaurant isn't busy, I meet with a friend and we chat for an hour and leave. Never had any issue. The server comes over, asks if we want anything, and we politely decline.
The longest was probably 4 or 5 hours as a friend and I played cards until the restaurant closed, but they never gave us a hard time. Of course if they ever did ask us to leave we would immediately, but that's never happened to me yet.
You really ought to tip if you do this.
Lol, late to the party but frankly this is all that really needed to be said. Also, maybe buy a drink and ask an employee if it's ok. Could still be a little awkward.
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Back to the original post... I'm stumped as to why the 'poster' would consider this an awkward situation. If you are comfortable with your decision and the rationale behind it, so be it. You aren't hurting anyone. A comment by Nicholas struck a chord with me though, in that others may think you're financially unable to purchase a meal and might feel pressured to provide for you. I could see where this MIGHT happen, but my guess is they know that he's just a frugal guy. Nothing wrong with that.
Re: playing cards for hours in a restaurant... I wouldn't do it. This guy does. So be it. Many people in this thread sound bullyish and holier-than-thou (and it's becoming more common on the forum, unfortunately), so can you just drop it? Seriously, reset your brain and remember you have bigger things in the world and your lives to focus on than a stranger behind a keyboard who likes to play cards in unexpected places? Holy sh*t, people.
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Re: playing cards for hours in a restaurant... I wouldn't do it. This guy does. So be it. Many people in this thread sound bullyish and holier-than-thou (and it's becoming more common on the forum, unfortunately), so can you just drop it? Seriously, reset your brain and remember you have bigger things in the world and your lives to focus on than a stranger behind a keyboard who likes to play cards in unexpected places? Holy sh*t, people.
Oh the irony on bumping a thread with no posts in 8 days telling people to drop it...
Self-absorbed behavior should be called out. That's not "holier-than-thou". No one has a right to act like an entitled jerk. That's simply common courtesy.