The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: sol on September 27, 2014, 03:20:22 PM
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Why haven't you retired yet?
Brad Pitt is a multimillionaire. By my standards he has a bunch of reasons to quit working, like a wife and a bunch of kids and more money than he'll ever need. Yet he's still making movies.
Some of the posters here have shared their personal progress towards FIRE, saying they have 1 million dollars or 1.3 million dollars, yet they still work. I have less than that, but way more than Jacob at ERE had when he retired, and yet I still work.
If the whole point of the MMM blog is to help people reach FI by cultivating a stoic perspective on life, to show them that you don't need to be rich to be happy, then why are we all still trying to be rich? Should Jacob try to be as rich as me? Should I try to be as rich as Brad Pitt? What's the cutoff?
Isn't continuing to work to support your chosen level of lifestyle extravagance always equally ridiculous? Maybe Brad Pitt feels he can't quite afford to retire yet because his Italian Villa, though totally paid off, doesn't have its own nest egg large enough to pay its property taxes in perpetuity. Or because he's only leaving his kids $10 million each when he dies, maybe not enough for them to continue living the way they do now. I'm still working because my fancy house isn't paid off, and we'd have to make sacrifices to our lifestyle spending in order to clear the mortgage. But am I happier than Jacob was? Or Bakari (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/profile/?u=412)? Or Brad?
Unless you're still carrying crushing debt, why are you still working? What future or current level of extravagance do you aspire towards that has kept you working, long past the point at which other people have pulled the ER trigger? Is that luxury really worth more years of your life doing a job you don't love? Why isn't keeping up with the Joneses just as silly for me as it is for everyone at the Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/)?
I'd expect there to be a continuum of retirement targets here based on how badly people hate their jobs. Like if you have a high pressure finance job but make a lot of money, I'd expect you to retire much sooner than a low-paid office worker who kind of likes hanging out with her coworkers. But that's not what we see. Instead, everyone seems to continue working as long as they can stand it, or until they hit some predetermined number that is in no way based on their actual happiness level.
I think maybe we're going about this all wrong. Many of us should already be retired, yet continue to work out of fear that we'll have to actually utilize our safety margins. You must not hate your job that much, if your'e willing to volunteer for definitely suffering through more years of working in order to avoid the possibility of maybe suffering through cutting back your expenses in the future.
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I'm still working because we can't afford to eat, pay property taxes, and buy health insurance in perpetuity yet. Also I love my job 90% of the time, as does my husband.
I'll either retire as soon as I vest in our pension fund (5 years out) or at age 85 or greater, I imagine. Not yet sure which, but either is fully possible; as a college professor, I should be able to do my job at an advanced age, and my genetics suggest I'll live past 100. On the other hand, we'll be FI or near enough in five years.
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I'd could be a billionaire and I'd still work part time somewhere. I like to travel but I couldn't go off for months at a time....I like home. When I'm home, I'd be bored to death after awhile. There are just so my activities one person can do
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I don't like to travel for more then 2 weeks at a time. I hated being fully retired but love working p.t. teaching & consulting so in effect being semi-retired. The point is to find the life balance that works for you.
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I haven't reached FI yet so I'm still working but my mom, who is 75, and is FI is still working because she LOVES what she does. She's a college professor and is an amazing teacher. I think, if you love what you do and it fills your soul than that is the right path for you.
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To voluntarily cross over into retirement, one needs two forms of readiness: Financial and Mental. Even once you solidly reach one, sometimes it takes a little while for the other to catch up.
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Not everyone works just for the paycheck or to buy more stuff. Alot of people (including me) can't imagine not working. My business is my favorite hobby so why would I quit doing it? Money is just the icing on the cake.
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I FIRE'd about ten years ago, in my mid 30-s but I still work. However, I no longer work for "the man." I work for myself. I'm a freelance writer and I write a variety of things. I do some tech writing, magazine articles, guest blog posts, copy writing, grant proposals, web copy, and more. Now I'm working on a novel. I enjoy it because I'm always researching new things, learning new styles of writing, meeting new people, etc. Occasionally a client will pay my expenses to travel a bit (I did a brochure for a resort once got the trip for free) and It keeps my brain engaged. I'm free, now, to take on only projects that genuinely interest me and work with clients that I really like. Since I get most of my work through word of mouth, my clients tend to be really awesome people, but I do get the occasional jerk and I have no problem saying, "I don't think I'm the writer for you" and politely telling them to get lost.
I don't do it full-time, only when something interesting comes across my doorstep. Sure, I could do it for free (and I sometimes do, depending on the work/client and I do a lot of volunteer work), but why not get paid for using my skills and my mind?
It's not about adding piles of wealth to my stash because I'm afraid of running out or wanting some extravagant lifestyle. I don't care. I know my stash will last as long as I do. But I do like using my brain and my talents and if that results in some money coming my way, I'm not going to say no. I do tend to charge a lot less than I could really ask because, again, it's more about the fun of doing the work than the money.
If I were sitting around doing nothing, I'd be bored out of my mind. There's only so much stuff I can do around the house and as for travel, we do part-time in a motorhome but I can work from there if I want to. For me, "retirement" was about getting out from under the corporate thumb and being able to do what I wanted with my time, to choose my own projects, to explore different topics, and write what I wanted to write. I'm there and it occasionally pays. So be it.
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Because I'm nowhere close to FI.
However, even when I am, I plan to keep working, though probably on a part-time basis, because I really enjoy my work (nursing). The point of FI, for me, is not to get out of some terrible job, but for work to be optional. I have other things I want to do, and I want to get to a point where work doesn't keep me from doing them.
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I'm in the same situation sol. I still go to work because there are parts of it I enjoy. I'm an engineer in the semiconductor business, we have a lab with expensive tools, equipment, and software that I get paid to play with. I would do that part for free. It's the meetings, schedules, and customer demands they have to pay me to put up with but it's not that bad being on the R&D technical side of things. I'm trying to think of a part time work arrangement which would allow more time for travel and non-peak-time recreation activities. I'm sure my company would go along with whatever I suggest so I need to just do it.
I have 35 years of expenses saved but there is always the feeling of what if some catastrophe happens and that is not enough. And what if I RE and find myself watching fail videos all day instead of productive time and adventures? It is definitely not as simple as reaching 25 years expenses and giving notice.
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I just can't understand why people would continue in their same jobs though, unless they're already really meaningful. If you no longer need to work but still want to, why not switch to something meaningful like volunteering or a non-profit?
Continuing to work for money despite having financial independence and, as a Mustachian, the freedom from needing "more" seems a bit off. Why not do some good for the world, now that you no longer need to work for money? It's not like having "more" will make you any happier.
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If you no longer need to work but still want to, why not switch to something meaningful like volunteering or a non-profit?
There's so many ways of defining meaningful! DH could retire now (even though he doesn't quite believe it), but he loves the people he work with. They solve interesting problems and are good people to be with. And some of what they do feels important in a larger sense. But he also is creating time on the side to do volunteer work. And in an ideal world, he could combine the two interests and his job could pay him to do non-profit stuff and he could pull even more people into the volunteer work and thus leverage his skills by getting other smart people connected to helping kids.
It's a long-shot, but it would keep his brain engaged, for sure.
It's about figuring where your joy is & what motivates you and then creating more of that in your life.
So simple. So hard to do.
The Swami article sums up our approach: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/30/weekend-edition-retire-in-your-mind-even-if-you-love-your-job/
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Working the exact job I always dreamed of. Worked a special event today making more money in a couple of hours than some people make in a week. Makes that run to Home Depot afterward absolutely painless.
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Because I have a two year old son, I'm the sole breadwinner for my family and I wouldn't be able to sleep at night unless I have quite a few layers of safety built into FIRE plans. I'm not as sanguine about the prospects of the market as many Mustachians are.
I don't hate my job. In fact I've had a really great career. If I could work part time, it would be the perfect setup. I plan to take this option next year if possible.
I was not mentally ready. It's only recently I've realised I already have 'enough' to FIRE. But without a clear idea of what I'd do with my time, I wasn't prepared to pull the trigger. This next year will be all about the mental preparation for FIRE i.e. starting to incorporate activities I want to do post-FIRE into my life now in order to make the transition easier.
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I work because until I have enough passive income to keep a roof over my head and food on the table, the stress of freelancing sounds like a terrible tradeoff for the occasional inconvience of having a boss.... when that balance changes, then I'm out.
Yeah, I could live in a cabin in the woods and hunt moose for food or something, but that sounds like less fun to me than even going to work like I do now. When I can afford a life at my personally-defined minimal level of comfort (regarding house, area, food, health), the rest is icing on the cake which I'd be comfortable freelanging for.
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Because I have a fabulous job. What I don't understand is why any of you continue to work in any job you don't absolutely love. You only live once. You shouldnt slave your life away at anything unless you have to. Quit your job and pursue your dreams. Finances don't matter for anyone in the developed world. You will not starve.
I read Barron's and every week or so they profile a guy who way over retirement age, wealthy, and still working like a maniac because he loves it. Last week it was Jack Nicklaus - he still designs about five golf courses a year. He gives lots to charity. Look at Warren Buffet. Most actors and artists work forever. These people are doing what they love. You should too. And never retire.
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My work presents interesting problems to solve, helps others and it is not predictable. I enjoy the benefits too much to stop.
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Great question. We have enough to FIRE with a modest lifestyle not in our current high COL city, but working longer affords more options. I have a couple of alternative retirement dates, depending on how financial markets do and how I feel about my job. One factor that is definitely relevant is the prospect of possibly needing long-term care in old age. I want to make sure there are ample resources to pay for a quality facility. On the other hand, because that would probably be 30 years or more away, it is hard to anticipate what costs would be. Perhaps those services will largely be delivered by robots then.
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Great question. We have enough to FIRE with a modest lifestyle not in our current high COL city, but working longer affords more options.
Yes, same here. I worked out recently that my hubbie could retire now if we moved to an area of the country where the homes were cheaper as it would free up equity and we could live on that until my husband got his pension at age 55.
We have no intention of doing that though as my hubbie doesn't hate his job as it's easy and although he does shift work he also gets a lot of holiday time. We're also planning on him delaying taking his pension until age 60.
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I just can't understand why people would continue in their same jobs though, unless they're already really meaningful. If you no longer need to work but still want to, why not switch to something meaningful like volunteering or a non-profit?
Continuing to work for money despite having financial independence and, as a Mustachian, the freedom from needing "more" seems a bit off. Why not do some good for the world, now that you no longer need to work for money? It's not like having "more" will make you any happier.
But some of us work for nonprofits that do good for the world now. :-)
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I only have 200k saved so at 27 I'm not ready. I'm going for 50k a year. Should have that in 10 years
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I just can't understand why people would continue in their same jobs though, unless they're already really meaningful. If you no longer need to work but still want to, why not switch to something meaningful like volunteering or a non-profit?
Continuing to work for money despite having financial independence and, as a Mustachian, the freedom from needing "more" seems a bit off. Why not do some good for the world, now that you no longer need to work for money? It's not like having "more" will make you any happier.
I've given some thought to this. When I get to FI, I'd like to spend a bigger chunk of my time "making the world a better place." How to best accomplish that? I could quit my job and start volunteering, and that would of course make a difference and would also make me feel really good about myself. However I'm also a pretty high earner. The reality is that if I want to maximize my impact, it's likely that the best thing I can do is carry on with my corporate job and donate my salary to charity. So if I still enjoy my job well enough when I get to FI, there's a good chance that's exactly what I'll do.
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I have no money. Thus, I need to work.
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I just can't understand why people would continue in their same jobs though, unless they're already really meaningful. If you no longer need to work but still want to, why not switch to something meaningful like volunteering or a non-profit?
Continuing to work for money despite having financial independence and, as a Mustachian, the freedom from needing "more" seems a bit off. Why not do some good for the world, now that you no longer need to work for money? It's not like having "more" will make you any happier.
But some of us work for nonprofits that do good for the world now. :-)
Nice! :-)
I just can't understand why people would continue in their same jobs though, unless they're already really meaningful. If you no longer need to work but still want to, why not switch to something meaningful like volunteering or a non-profit?
Continuing to work for money despite having financial independence and, as a Mustachian, the freedom from needing "more" seems a bit off. Why not do some good for the world, now that you no longer need to work for money? It's not like having "more" will make you any happier.
I've given some thought to this. When I get to FI, I'd like to spend a bigger chunk of my time "making the world a better place." How to best accomplish that? I could quit my job and start volunteering, and that would of course make a difference and would also make me feel really good about myself. However I'm also a pretty high earner. The reality is that if I want to maximize my impact, it's likely that the best thing I can do is carry on with my corporate job and donate my salary to charity. So if I still enjoy my job well enough when I get to FI, there's a good chance that's exactly what I'll do.
Also a really good perspective! I'll have to give this some thought.
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I have been FI for about 6 or 7 years but I continue to work.
6 years ago we had the 2008 Global Financial Crisis - we all survived it but the retirement fund lost a lot of value for a long period. I could still have stopped work but the lifestyle would have been not at the level originally planned.
Now the retirement fund looks extremely healthy but I continue to work, not because I need to and not because I love my work. My work does give me a sense of some purpose / personal worth.
I think the main reason I continue working is that I don't know what to do if I stopped working.
Passive sources of income are great - but what to do with the 70 hours a week I used to spend working?
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Passive sources of income are great - but what to do with the 70 hours a week I used to spend working?
Read, write, hobbies. Travel.
Do ALL THE THINGS.
Whenever I get to FIRE, I will have no trouble at all staying busy.
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I could consider myself FI now, but that would be for my current expenses plus a little buffer. I want more buffer. I am cautious, have a job with people I like and make great money, and am 45 years old and may not be employable at this level if I were to have to get back in the job market in a couple of years due to a premature FIRE. I don't want to have to look for another job in my field if I can avoid that. I am open to a part-time FIRE job where I can have fun and/or help others...but it won't be a big money making opportunity as I have now.
As the poster above says, there have been two market crashes (2000 and 2008), and I would hate to prematurely FIRE and then regret it. Another headwind is that my parents had to leave their home country when they were young adults and start over in the US, so I always have that in the back of my mind. I don't think anything like that would happen to me, but being blessed with a good job is not something I take lightly.
Is it OMY syndrome? A little bit, but since I am somewhat enjoying the current ride I might as well stay on until I am thrown off - which is likely to happen in the next year or two as the company continues to downsize.
It also just doesn't feel like the right time right now, and I'm one of those weird people that believes in that kind of stuff. My gut/fate/supernatural-being will provide direction when I need it.
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We have around 1.5M in assets and no debt. We still work because we still spend. We also are supporting our boys 20 and 21. Our oldest is a cancer survivor. My health benefits cover him for 5 more years if I keep my job.
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Because I have a fabulous job. What I don't understand is why any of you continue to work in any job you don't absolutely love. You only live once. You shouldnt slave your life away at anything unless you have to. Quit your job and pursue your dreams. Finances don't matter for anyone in the developed world. You will not starve.
I read Barron's and every week or so they profile a guy who way over retirement age, wealthy, and still working like a maniac because he loves it. Last week it was Jack Nicklaus - he still designs about five golf courses a year. He gives lots to charity. Look at Warren Buffet. Most actors and artists work forever. These people are doing what they love. You should too. And never retire.
But even with a fabulous job you still often have to put up with doing many things you don't like - a 40 plus hour work week, limited vacation time, overtime, a boss, a commute, limited time for family, friends, other activities that have meaning or enjoyment to you, etc... I had a job I loved and, if I could have continued to do it but more on my terms, I probably would have continued working - not because I needed more money but because I had a passion for the job and what I did. But that other pesky job-related stuff got in the way of the many other things I wanted to do as well and there was no way I could work that job and do them too. But I agree that most people who enjoy their work - or have a passion for something - probably don't ever want to quit as long as it doesn't cause to much conflict in other areas of their life.
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Jacob's working.
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/about
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/frequently-asked-questions
Speaking of Jacob, he wrote a relevant article on this topic, OMY Until Comfort (http://earlyretirementextreme.com/one-more-year-before-comfort.html)
And he also noted in one of his articles (can't find it right now) that as you get richer, your idea of rich changes. If your initial target is 500K, by the time you reach that, many people think that they need more. This happens even to people "in the know" -- folks who are consciously resisting lifestyle inflation -- who are striving to RE. You'll see a lot of this particularly on the Bogleheads forums.
>> Many of us should already be retired, yet continue to work out of fear that we'll have to actually utilize our safety margins.
Yes, this also part of it. I'm not at a BH level of conservativeness (<2% SWF = WTF!) but I do have concerns about the recent boom/bust cycles of the US economy, the broader global economy, and the ability of the planet to sustain market growth indefinitely. Particularly with P/E10 sitting where it is, I don't think it's unreasonable to feel this way, given the sequence-of-returns risk. If there's such a thing as the oxymoronic sounding phrase "reasonable fear" I think this qualifies.
But all of the above points pale in comparison to the "SO onboard" + "mental readiness" challenges I've had over the past year and a half. You can read about the SO struggles (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/reader-case-study-convince-so-that-i-can-fire-(with-or-without-her)/) if you care to.
I've come to see the full FIRE timeline as:
1. Realize it's possible and start learning how to do it
2. Ditch debt by downsizing your life and saving
3. Increase efficiency to further reduce expenses over a year or two
4. Learn to invest
5. Wealth accumulation, NW increase
6. Setting a FIRE number
7. Autopilot for X number of years to hit #6
8. Realize: Holy shitballs, I'm there. This forces a re-examination of 6, as well as triggers the next phase which is: Can we really do this? What are the practical steps required to unplugging?
9. Implement said practical steps. Some of these items may take time, e.g. moving/downsizing, coming up with a financial plan to draw off from your asset sheet, brainwashing your mate into being fully onboard if s/he wasn't already.
10. Determine how to relate this life change -- if you choose to relate it at all -- to other people in your life
11. Set an actual RE date
12. Pull the trigger
Most of the reason I started blogging was, in fact, to help me work through 6-12. And it's been helpful -- April 1st is my give-notice date and barring a catastrophic market collapse I will hit it.
There's an additional reason I'm still working: My current job is not that bad.
You hinted at "increasing lifestyle extravegance" as a possible reason to continue working. This is not the case in my situation at all. You can probably boil the whole thing down to a) fear (Once I leave, I don't want to feel forced to go back to work, ever) and b) feeling 100% prepared, which may actually be a subset of a)
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I work because I am only 25...nowhere close to FIRE. I also have student loans to pay off(Down to 4k from 20k a year ago). Even when I retire in 20 years, I will still work part-time for the social aspect or to feel somewhat productive. 10-15 hours a week tops. The rest of the time I will just...live.
I will probably move out of state to an area of lower COL. Get an apartment near the beach.
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Earlier this year I was starting to get pretty run down and depressed at my job. I had no plan and no idea of when things would ever change. There was nothing particularly onerous in my daily grind - it was just the monotony of it that was weighing me down. I found myself subconsciously wondering "Is this all there is?".
Over the last couple of months I've set my sights on FI, and put together plans that will get me there in about ten years. I've started reducing my spending and putting money away in a more deliberate manner. I also started thinking about what I might like to do as a semi-retired job. What career would provide me with a sense of accomplishment and camaraderie while also being flexible and low-stress? And at that point I realized something surprising.
I like my current job.
I really do. I'm not saving the world or anything. But I work with good people, the demands are low, and there are challenges and a goals to fulfill. The dread and depression I was experience at work was not coming from the work itself - it was coming from my lack of a plan. It was coming from my helplessness and fear that my future depended on being in my employer's good graces. Even looking ten years out from FI, doing the analysis and planning has convinced me that I will get there. If things don't work out here, then they will work out somewhere else. I'm in control of my future.
I expect that when I do reach FI I'll feel the same way. I may keep right on doing what I'm doing. The big benefit of FI for me is not in what it allows you to do, but in how it makes you feel about whatever you do. And I feel good. :)
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I could probably quit my job now and survive--but I would have to do it on a barebones budget. I would rather work a few more years so that I can comfortably afford things like internet at home, more travel than I do now (I have never been out of US/Canada), and my ice hockey hobby. Also, I hope to buy a newer truck and purchase a slide in camper. After 3 or 4 more years of work, I should be able to afford all of that and make the stash last as long as I do.
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You can probably boil the whole thing down to a) fear (Once I leave, I don't want to feel forced to go back to work, ever) and b) feeling 100% prepared, which may actually be a subset of a)
Great post Dr., but I quoted the end since it's what I was going to say. I think fear of failure will keep a lot of people holding on for a few years. We need to prove all the naysayers wrong so they can eat their "I told you so's". If we stop early and pick up another job for whatever reason, I'm sure some of us, and some of our friends/family will consider our FIRE experiment a failure.
I work because I don't think I'll be at $1M for another 5 years. I will work beyond that because I have different needs than my family and in order to support them I'll either need more or need to make them see the light.
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... I'm sure some of us, and some of our friends/family will consider our FIRE experiment a failure.
Exactly. It's not a so-called experiment for us, though other people in our lives may see it as such. The vehicles we're constructing need to be flight-ready or we'll experience the pain of the resulting crash. Plus: crow tastes bad.
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My job is tolerable, but by no means fufilling. I'm working OMY past technical (4% SWR) FI. This year has allowed my to make sure all my plans are in place, plus provide a little insurance against inflation, market volitility, unexpected expenses, and policy changes (taxes). I think the extra time has helped my wife prepare herself mentally as well.
When one starts the FIRE journey, after you get the plan in place you almost have to pretend like it will never happen in order to get yourself in the mindset where you can go on living your life without thinking about FIRE constantly (Dr. Doom's autopilot), as it really can drive you a little mad if you do. Then one day you wake up and you are getting close, really close, then the excited butterflies take over. Have you really made it? Is it really going to work? Should I work a little longer? No matter how old you are, retirement is a stressful event, number 10 on Holmes and Rahe Stress Scale. Stress triggers a fight or flight response. In this case you can run away by simply doing nothing other than continuing to get up and go to work everyday. This is when you have prove you really are a BADASS.
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Same here, JUST WAY too much fun stuff to do... I'm into SOO many things, some can generate income... some can't.
OP's Question now...
1. We still have 2 mortgages (primary residence and investment condo)
2. We have not reached our FIRE numbers yet, another 5-7 yrs...
3. Obviously we could sell off everything and live still WELL by general standards... but we're a bit used to luxury (weakness, mmm terms) so we're gonna try to hit our cushioned FIRE numbers. Also paying for 2 kids university does require a bit of savings as well.
4. We both have flexible jobs (very good life/work balance) and generally are enjoyable... so not HUGE rush to hang it up. She wants to continue to consult part-time... me not so much, too many things to do :)
Passive sources of income are great - but what to do with the 70 hours a week I used to spend working?
Read, write, hobbies. Travel.
Do ALL THE THINGS.
Whenever I get to FIRE, I will have no trouble at all staying busy.
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Crushing debt.
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I have no money. Thus, I need to work.
+1 Or at least, I have nowhere near enough money to even think about FIRE.
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I'm into year 6 of a 10 year plan that is right on track. When I cross the finish line that's the end of working for someone else.
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... I'm sure some of us, and some of our friends/family will consider our FIRE experiment a failure.
Exactly. It's not a so-called experiment for us, though other people in our lives may see it as such. The vehicles we're constructing need to be flight-ready or we'll experience the pain of the resulting crash. Plus: crow tastes bad.
Great list, Dr. Doom. Spot on.
I'm at step #10 ("Determine how to relate this life change -- if you choose to relate it at all -- to other people in your life"), with a forward-looking focus on this very issue. How you present your plans up front determines your crow-eating potential later. Like not using the word "retirement."
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. . . because I can't yet fund my retirement plan to create a giant robot and terrorize the residents of Tokyo.
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. . . because I can't yet fund my retirement plan to create a giant robot and terrorize the residents of Tokyo.
We all have goals right.
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I work because I do enjoy my job for the most part. I help people on a daily basis. However, I've been doing this medical work for 7 years and I see many drained colleagues who are just over helping people. I don't want to turn into that.
I could FIRE right now and it is an awesome feeling to know that.
Another reason I haven't done anything is that my SO works and I think he'd be mad that I am not. He needs to work in order to help pay for his aging mother who lacked saving anything due to raising two kids alone.
And yet another reason is that I don't think my parents would take too kindly to me being unemployed. They are in their early 70s and I could see that maybe in the next 10 years (I'll be 51 in years) I will retire early and help care for them.
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I came a bit late to the FIRE party. While my net worth suggest I might be able to retire, most of it is in qualified monies that I can draw on yet, as well in some semi-not liquid property I would rather hold on to and the primary resident. So for a few more years we will be building up the stash, and make some decisions if we want to built a final home on our property and sell this home, sell both and move somewhere else, or see what part of the country the kids settle down in and then decide.
It wasn't until I found this site though that I realize I really could stop now if I wanted (or once we got the spending in line we could).
I too though think I will have a second career (part time) doing something for quite a while.
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Sol - I like your post. Almost every week I look at my numbers and see if I can figure out a way to pull the trigger NOW, not 2 years from now. Are the luxuries in my life worth 24 more months?? What can I cut? If I made a small income each year (~$5000/yr), will that work? Is that better or worse than 2 more years at my desk?
At the end of the day, I don't hate my job. There are only a few days each year that I am overly stressed. And for better or worse, 2 years will be past in no time.
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+1 Fear
That’s what keeps me working on improving the safety margin. It’s not so much that I’ll run out of money but that I’ll run out of money to do the things I left work in order to do. I think most of us with OMY syndrome are actually well and above basic living expenses for life – but we don’t want an existence that bare bones. At least that’s what I mean when I say I’m FI but not yet RE. It’s not keeping up with the Jones it’s having a plan that needs $X to execute.
The fear takes many forms; not just about the market. Some of it is familial; what if my parents need help down the road? Will I be safe as a single woman off exploring the world? Will I be lonely if all my friends are still working/raising their kids and can’t join me on any grand adventures? Or what if by the time they are ready for adventures I’ve already exhausted my adventuring budget?
All those fears keep me at work but the biggest fear – what if I die too soon? – keeps me striving to break free. My walking away date is a fluctuating compromise between the fear of dying at the office and a myriad of the small unknowns.
It doesn’t help that we tend to only hear about the extremes - people so happy they walked when they did or the tragic cases of dying on the way to work. It’s rare to hear from the perspective of a person who pulled the trigger and then had remorse or was constantly under-employed part timing it to support the luxuries they found they didn’t like living without.
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I still work because I have a ways to go before I am FI. Right now I think I will still work once I hit FI as I really enjoy my job and it is a non-profit with a mission I am passionate about. My answer most likely will change if I change jobs between now and then.
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+1 Fear
That’s what keeps me working on improving the safety margin. It’s not so much that I’ll run out of money but that I’ll run out of money to do the things I left work in order to do. I think most of us with OMY syndrome are actually well and above basic living expenses for life – but we don’t want an existence that bare bones. At least that’s what I mean when I say I’m FI but not yet RE. It’s not keeping up with the Jones it’s having a plan that needs $X to execute.
Similar here. Fear of running out of $ to live the life I want. Also fear that I won't know what to do with myself and will go to pieces. (Working on this.)
Reason #2--I have current expenses that are quite high but that I expect to end within the next 5 years. After that, I will need less income and (if I continue working the same way) will be able to save a lot more.
I'm older that a lot of the people here and ER (if I get there) won't really be all that early. So I want to be darned sure I do not ever *have* to go back to work after retirement. I've worked a long time, and I enjoyed a lot of it, but once I stop, I don't ever want to put on the yoke again. I don't even want to do my current work part-time, because then it still will feel like WORK.
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I'm heavily considering allowing myself to be dragged back to my career for an additional 2 years after taking this last year off as a FIRE experiment. I have enjoyed this time off immensely so I have almost no desire to go back, and I don't need the money. But the "golden handcuffs" are calling, namely a significant pension increase if I turn my 18 years into 20 years (it would mean a significantly larger payout for life PLUS the ability to withdraw earlier at no penalty), not to mention adding a lot of extra $ to the stash in the process.
I'll have to reconcile (or rationalize) that with the whole OMY trap, and with not working just to get "more." It's going to be pretty hard though to pass up the opportunity to earn so much more in a short time at a pretty cushy job, even though I could make this FIRE experiment permanent and never go back. It's tough when there are large milestones to reach like pensions; in some cases, the difference between working, say, 19.5 years and 20 years, can be the difference between getting nothing and $50,000 annual income for the rest of your life.
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We are not quite there financially. That's the biggest reason. But there are a few others:
1. I work with good people, I believe in the project I'm leading, and I want to see it through. My industry is worth believing in.
2. I'm not yet emotionally prepared for ER. It only became a goal about 4 months ago, and I have some more soul-searching to do about how to spend my post-ER days before taking the leap.
3. I went to school a long time to do what I do, and it would be a waste to not use it, at least some!
4. We have two kids and want financial security for their sake. If we could work one year at our higher salaries and fund both their educations....what a gift to start their futures out right.
We could both retire now, move to a lower col area and live a very spartan lifestyle.
We could retire in 3 years and be in good shape but no real extras.
We could retire in 6 years and be truly set for life, with plenty of frills.
Or a combo: work for a couple of years, then cut back to part time? I work for a couple more years, husband works longer? It's still up in the air, but as he goes up for tenure in 2 years or so, we will see what comes of that process before making any changes. In any case, it's great to have a goal.
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I'm heavily considering allowing myself to be dragged back to my career for an additional 2 years after taking this last year off as a FIRE experiment. I have enjoyed this time off immensely so I have almost no desire to go back, and I don't need the money. But the "golden handcuffs" are calling, namely a significant pension increase if I turn my 18 years into 20 years (it would mean a significantly larger payout for life PLUS the ability to withdraw earlier at no penalty), not to mention adding a lot of extra $ to the stash in the process.
I'll have to reconcile (or rationalize) that with the whole OMY trap, and with not working just to get "more." It's going to be pretty hard though to pass up the opportunity to earn so much more in a short time at a pretty cushy job, even though I could make this FIRE experiment permanent and never go back. It's tough when there are large milestones to reach like pensions; in some cases, the difference between working, say, 19.5 years and 20 years, can be the difference between getting nothing and $50,000 annual income for the rest of your life.
Plus in your case you took off a year and so probably don't have the same "pull" towards FIRE as someone who has been enslaved...er...working the past year. That break probably did wonders for you mentally, emotionally and physically and so going back to work for 2 more years to gain the much added benefits won't impact you the same way as it would have if you hadn't taken a break. So for my 2 cents of advise, I'd say go back to work. You can try it and if it doesn't work out you are still free to quit without losing anything you have right at this point.
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I'm freaking broke, that's why :-P
I don't think most actors get into acting for the money. I think it's a passion, and I believe they thrive on the attention. Brad Pitt wouldn't just be giving up money and a job.
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I'm heavily considering allowing myself to be dragged back to my career for an additional 2 years after taking this last year off as a FIRE experiment. I have enjoyed this time off immensely so I have almost no desire to go back, and I don't need the money. But the "golden handcuffs" are calling, namely a significant pension increase if I turn my 18 years into 20 years (it would mean a significantly larger payout for life PLUS the ability to withdraw earlier at no penalty), not to mention adding a lot of extra $ to the stash in the process.
I'll have to reconcile (or rationalize) that with the whole OMY trap, and with not working just to get "more." It's going to be pretty hard though to pass up the opportunity to earn so much more in a short time at a pretty cushy job, even though I could make this FIRE experiment permanent and never go back. It's tough when there are large milestones to reach like pensions; in some cases, the difference between working, say, 19.5 years and 20 years, can be the difference between getting nothing and $50,000 annual income for the rest of your life.
Plus in your case you took off a year and so probably don't have the same "pull" towards FIRE as someone who has been enslaved...er...working the past year. That break probably did wonders for you mentally, emotionally and physically and so going back to work for 2 more years to gain the much added benefits won't impact you the same way as it would have if you hadn't taken a break. So for my 2 cents of advise, I'd say go back to work. You can try it and if it doesn't work out you are still free to quit without losing anything you have right at this point.
Yeah, a sabbatical would be nice right about now. It's been three years since my last one (which was layoff induced).
I just found out I am surviving this latest layoff. Yay - or bummer - depending on my mood on any particular day. My group is downsizing a little but my manager moved us off to other groups. Well, I am doing the same work but they just did a re-org and I will soon be doing somewhat different work. I'm going back to a group I used to work with and the people are fun so I will treat it as a "new thing" in my mind to try to recharge my batteries.
I'm just at an age where it would be hard to find another job like this and my company is downsizing so won't offer any sabbatical or leave of absence opportunity, so I will just have to suck it up for another year or two. I am actually grateful for this as I really need a little more time to get things straight with my finances. I just downsized my costs a lot this past year and could use another year or two to really beef up the accounts.
Sigh...or smile...it changes by the minute.
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I'm heavily considering allowing myself to be dragged back to my career for an additional 2 years after taking this last year off as a FIRE experiment. I have enjoyed this time off immensely so I have almost no desire to go back, and I don't need the money. But the "golden handcuffs" are calling, namely a significant pension increase if I turn my 18 years into 20 years (it would mean a significantly larger payout for life PLUS the ability to withdraw earlier at no penalty), not to mention adding a lot of extra $ to the stash in the process.
I'll have to reconcile (or rationalize) that with the whole OMY trap, and with not working just to get "more." It's going to be pretty hard though to pass up the opportunity to earn so much more in a short time at a pretty cushy job, even though I could make this FIRE experiment permanent and never go back. It's tough when there are large milestones to reach like pensions; in some cases, the difference between working, say, 19.5 years and 20 years, can be the difference between getting nothing and $50,000 annual income for the rest of your life.
Plus in your case you took off a year and so probably don't have the same "pull" towards FIRE as someone who has been enslaved...er...working the past year. That break probably did wonders for you mentally, emotionally and physically and so going back to work for 2 more years to gain the much added benefits won't impact you the same way as it would have if you hadn't taken a break. So for my 2 cents of advise, I'd say go back to work. You can try it and if it doesn't work out you are still free to quit without losing anything you have right at this point.
Yeah, a sabbatical would be nice right about now. It's been three years since my last one (which was layoff induced).
I just found out I am surviving this latest layoff. Yay - or bummer - depending on my mood on any particular day. My group is downsizing a little but my manager moved us off to other groups. Well, I am doing the same work but they just did a re-org and I will soon be doing somewhat different work. I'm going back to a group I used to work with and the people are fun so I will treat it as a "new thing" in my mind to try to recharge my batteries.
I'm just at an age where it would be hard to find another job like this and my company is downsizing so won't offer any sabbatical or leave of absence opportunity, so I will just have to suck it up for another year or two. I am actually grateful for this as I really need a little more time to get things straight with my finances. I just downsized my costs a lot this past year and could use another year or two to really beef up the accounts.
Sigh...or smile...it changes by the minute.
congrats on retaining the job... or not :-)! Probably a good thing as it will give you the extra bucks to enjoy your ER more and travel when it happens. Can't go wrong with having amore secure base to FIRE from.
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My wife is still working because:
1) She still enjoys her job. (Most of it most of the time).
2) Doing so enables me to retire earlier.
I'm still working because:
1) we don't have enough of a nest egg to support a median family income yet. (I believe a median family income with zero debt will give us God's plenty of resources to have fun with.) Actually, I know it is, because after you take out taxes and our savings, that's pretty close to what we're spending now.
2) We have a mentally handicapped adult daughter. We want to make sure there's plenty of money left when we die so she won't be a financial burden on her brother or his kids.
So, we like big buffers, we cannot lie. :)
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I'm heavily considering allowing myself to be dragged back to my career for an additional 2 years after taking this last year off as a FIRE experiment. I have enjoyed this time off immensely so I have almost no desire to go back, and I don't need the money. But the "golden handcuffs" are calling, namely a significant pension increase if I turn my 18 years into 20 years (it would mean a significantly larger payout for life PLUS the ability to withdraw earlier at no penalty), not to mention adding a lot of extra $ to the stash in the process.
I'll have to reconcile (or rationalize) that with the whole OMY trap, and with not working just to get "more." It's going to be pretty hard though to pass up the opportunity to earn so much more in a short time at a pretty cushy job, even though I could make this FIRE experiment permanent and never go back. It's tough when there are large milestones to reach like pensions; in some cases, the difference between working, say, 19.5 years and 20 years, can be the difference between getting nothing and $50,000 annual income for the rest of your life.
Plus in your case you took off a year and so probably don't have the same "pull" towards FIRE as someone who has been enslaved...er...working the past year. That break probably did wonders for you mentally, emotionally and physically and so going back to work for 2 more years to gain the much added benefits won't impact you the same way as it would have if you hadn't taken a break. So for my 2 cents of advise, I'd say go back to work. You can try it and if it doesn't work out you are still free to quit without losing anything you have right at this point.
Yeah, a sabbatical would be nice right about now. It's been three years since my last one (which was layoff induced).
I just found out I am surviving this latest layoff. Yay - or bummer - depending on my mood on any particular day. My group is downsizing a little but my manager moved us off to other groups. Well, I am doing the same work but they just did a re-org and I will soon be doing somewhat different work. I'm going back to a group I used to work with and the people are fun so I will treat it as a "new thing" in my mind to try to recharge my batteries.
I'm just at an age where it would be hard to find another job like this and my company is downsizing so won't offer any sabbatical or leave of absence opportunity, so I will just have to suck it up for another year or two. I am actually grateful for this as I really need a little more time to get things straight with my finances. I just downsized my costs a lot this past year and could use another year or two to really beef up the accounts.
Sigh...or smile...it changes by the minute.
congrats on retaining the job... or not :-)! Probably a good thing as it will give you the extra bucks to enjoy your ER more and travel when it happens. Can't go wrong with having amore secure base to FIRE from.
Thanks (I think). ;-)
Yeah, it's really about as good of a cubicle job as you can get. Good people to work with. The products we work on have a benefit in society. There's just enough Dilbertish type stuff going on to have a laugh about. Flexibility in coming in and out when I please. And I get about 6 weeks of vacation a year. Any layoff severance package in the future will cover my costs for about a year. There just doesn't seem to be a reason to leave yet. Except for the commute (self-imposed by wanting to live by the beach though).
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This topic has been on my mind a lot recently. I'm no where near FI, but I'm nearing the point where I have enough to cover my living expenses for ~1 year in taxable accounts alone. In my mind, that opens a lot of doors to take more risks with what I want to do with my life.
I do have a huge amount of fear though. I'm trying to remember that I have so many fail-safe backups. I have a good support network and even though it wouldn't be ideal, multiple family members would let me live with them and probably even be able to employ me part time. Realizing that my 'worst-case' scenario would still be a completely enjoyable life is slowly helping me to figure out what my 'ideal' life looks like and how to start moving towards it.
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Thanks (I think). ;-)
Yeah, it's really about as good of a cubicle job as you can get. Good people to work with. The products we work on have a benefit in society. There's just enough Dilbertish type stuff going on to have a laugh about. Flexibility in coming in and out when I please. And I get about 6 weeks of vacation a year. Any layoff severance package in the future will cover my costs for about a year. There just doesn't seem to be a reason to leave yet. Except for the commute (self-imposed by wanting to live by the beach though).
6 weeks vacation?! Wow that would be hard to give up. The good thing is that you can have lots of time off (assuming they let you) and that goes a long way to waiting until you are in a position to cut the cord permanently. I think lack of vacation time for most Americans is probably one of the biggest reasons they want to leave their jobs. If we had longer breaks like they do in other parts of the world then maybe more people would want to stay working.
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New here. Boy, these topics get long--a lot to read!
I just found this site three weeks ago. I don't think I have enough yet to FIRE, but I won't know till I track my expenses for a month (or three).
Got YNAB and have it set up to start tracking spending tomorrow, first of October. I'm excited to see where I stand in relation to having my expenses covered by the 4% SWR rule!
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It seems like the majority of the replies here are some variation of "because I can't quiiiiiite afford to retire yet, with the safety margin I want" which I think totally misses the point I was trying to make when I started this thread. That point is that you already have more money than someone else who has retired, and once you reach your target number you will still not have enough for someone else who is still working just a bit longer so they can feel safe. And in BOTH cases, the desire to keep working is purely about additional luxury spending.
Do you need to keep working so that you can pay your property taxes if they go up? To travel more in retirement? To fund the college education of another child? To buy a vacation home? To be able to give your nanny and your butler Christmas bonuses? To buy a Ferrari? So you can add another Gulfstream to your private air force? Where's the line, people? Why do you always aspire to just that one step more than you already have?
You already have more than enough for someone else, but not quite enough for you. That sentence applies to like 60% of the people here, and some of those people have saved $200k and some of the have saved ten million.
If we're really so hard wired to always want just a little more than we currently have, what makes you think you'll actually pull the trigger when you get to the next rung on the ladder?
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well, I think it depends on how good you are at controlling "scope creep". If you set a goal, you can either reach it and celebrate and retire, or you can change the goal... I think those are kind of two different issues.
Yeah, any one of us has the option to quit now and... start a company/freelance/be homeless/whatever else might necessarily follow from the income and savings whoever it is has. It is a totally valid life choice, and plenty of people do it. But if the goal is to afford a certain income or house or whatever WITHOUT the stress of freelancing (that's my goal, at least), I think it's also totally valid. It COULD be a shifting goalpost, but I don't think it HAS to be.
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Why haven't you retired yet?
Brad Pitt is a multimillionaire. By my standards he has a bunch of reasons to quit working, like a wife and a bunch of kids and more money than he'll ever need. Yet he's still making movies.
Lets turn this question around, why should he quit? Do you really think he does this only for the money? I know alot of people that could retire, and that doesnt really care about the money. They even say they can do what they do for free, the money is just a bonus. The important thing is to utilize the limited time we have on this planet the best possible way. If you have found something you are passionate about and love doing, there shouldnt be any reason to quit doing that, even if they pay you to do it.
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Well i live in socialist northern Europe :-) Which means 7 weeks of paid vacation and a 36 hour work week. My commute is only like 15 min. I work in IT development and are able to finish my assignments in about half the time i am given. We can work from home or whatever we like so most weeks i come in 3-4 times and stay there for like 6-7 hours. No one ever raises any questions as long as my assignment are due on time. You could argue that my morale is a bit dodgy, but i am not gonna ask for more work and the corporate monkeys seem to be happy so meeeh...
While i don't have quite enough saved for ER i probably wouldn't go for it anyways given the circumstances.
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My wife retired 10+ years ago because she got a great deal to retire from a very stressful job; she has no interest in paid working and loves her family and friend time, free time activities, travel, and volunteering. I have been retired for 3 years, but I loved my job-mostly. It was too good a deal to pass on. Occasionally I wonder about going back part-time to be active in my field and to learn new things, but I have not explored this and also feel the limits on my "do what I want to do and go where I want to go" would be hard to bear. Interestingly, we are still putting money away in another fund we have no real intention of spending so I must be seeking more financial security, or just more. Belt and suspenders thinking, I guess. Go figure!
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It seems like the majority of the replies here are some variation of "because I can't quiiiiiite afford to retire yet, with the safety margin I want" which I think totally misses the point I was trying to make when I started this thread. That point is that you already have more money that someone else who has retired, and once you reach your target number you will still not have enough for someone else who is still working just a bit longer so they can feel safe. And in BOTH cases, the desire to keep working is purely about additional luxury spending.
Do you need to keep working so that you can pay your property taxes if they go up? To travel more in retirement? To fund the college education of another child? To buy a vacation home? To be able to give your nanny and your butler Christmas bonuses? To buy a Ferrari? So you can add another Gulfstream to your private air force? Where's the line, people? Why do you always aspire to just that one step more than you already have?
You already have more than enough for someone else, but not quite enough for you. That sentence applies to like 60% of the people here, and some of those people have saved $200k and some of the have saved ten million.
If we're really so hard wired to always want just a little more than we currently have, what makes you think you'll actually pull the trigger when you get to the next rung on the ladder?
I think for a lot of people it is simply fear or risk aversion more so then wanting to save more for a luxurious life. The potential "what ifs" may seem huge if you aren't a risk taker, and it often seems smarter to wait, plan and prepare (and probably over pre-pare) "just in case". As a big risk taker myself, I never planned for FIRE, just didn't want to work anymore and yearned to be doing other things so decided to take off work for a few years (5), live off savings (even if it meant ALL my savings) so I could do stuff while I was youngish still (42), and go back to work later in life. Found a way to make that sabbatical turn into permanent retirement so worked well for me (and I still would have been OK if that hadn't happened and I had to go back to work). But I think most people, especially those with kids and spouses, would never do something like that and may be more likely to stay at their jobs longer then they need too just for the added financial security rather then the Ferrari. I saw a custom license plate on a car the other day that said: IAMA4RE :-)!
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Sol, the point you are making is a good one but I think the question you are asking is rhetorical. You could have "retired" before your working career even started to a life of living under bridges and eating cat food and STILL been the envy of a significant subset (maybe the majority?) of the world's population who have an even worse lot in life. But that's not enough for you, is it? Since everything is relative, of course it becomes difficult to know where to draw the line.
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...You already have more than enough for someone else, but not quite enough for you. That sentence applies to like 60% of the people here, and some of those people have saved $200k and some of the have saved ten million.
If we're really so hard wired to always want just a little more than we currently have, what makes you think you'll actually pull the trigger when you get to the next rung on the ladder?
My current stache could support this guy's lifestyle: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/fetlock/
I'd be fine with that. He's inspiring really, and I'd love to give this lifestyle a shot. I currently have more than what he has, and I want substantially less than I currently have in terms of lifestyle in order to quit right now.
The problem (which is a good one to have) is I have a family. They would not be ok with that lifestyle, and I would not be ok without them. I WILL retire when our stache supports what my family needs, not wants. No creep for me. The only caveat I have is a complicated exit strategy.
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You could have "retired" before your working career even started to a life of living under bridges and eating cat food and STILL been the envy of a significant subset (maybe the majority?) of the world's population who have an even worse lot in life. But that's not enough for you, is it?
I have not claimed to be personally immune to this problem.
I just think it's somewhat hypocritical of us to condemn people who work til 62 to afford their cable television and luxury cars, when we are doing the exact same thing working until 40, or even 30, to afford our organic food and netflix. They are equivalent consumerist bullshit, except in scale.
If the point of this forum is to support people in their quest to reclaim their lives from corporate slavery, why do we continue to condone slaving away to support some luxuries but not others? How do you decide what's worthy of giving up your freedom for one more year?
Does getting from a 3.8% SWR to a 3.5% SWR really add that much more happiness to your life? Does it add more happiness than an entire year of life spent doing anything other than work?
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You could have "retired" before your working career even started to a life of living under bridges and eating cat food and STILL been the envy of a significant subset (maybe the majority?) of the world's population who have an even worse lot in life. But that's not enough for you, is it?
I have not claimed to be personally immune to this problem.
I just think it's somewhat hypocritical of us to condemn people who work til 62 to afford their cable television and luxury cars, when we are doing the exact same thing working until 40, or even 30, to afford our organic food and netflix. They are equivalent consumerist bullshit, except in scale.
If the point of this forum is to support people in their quest to reclaim their lives from corporate slavery, why do we continue to condone slaving away to support some luxuries but not others? How do you decide what's worthy of giving up your freedom for one more year?
Does getting from a 3.8% SWR to a 3.5% SWR really add that much more happiness to your life? Does it add more happiness than an entire year of life spent doing anything other than work?
Everyone has different things that are important to have in their life (and are willing to work longer to obtain) so only they can decide what is worth giving up their freedom for. I wouldn't give it up for most things - I'd cut to a bare bones spending, give up travel, and many other things if it meant I had to work longer. But I also realize that's not the case for other people who seem to want more. I just assume that if that's what makes them happy, and they aren't on here complaining too much about having to make the trade-off of working longer to get those things for jsut OMY or 10 more, then I'll support their choice. Just as I hope they support and understand my choice to live a pretty barebones lifestyle (but full of "adventure, excitement, and really wild things!") and don't tell me how I'm denying myself so many things because I have a small FIRE income.
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+1 Fear
That’s what keeps me working on improving the safety margin. It’s not so much that I’ll run out of money but that I’ll run out of money to do the things I left work in order to do. I think most of us with OMY syndrome are actually well and above basic living expenses for life – but we don’t want an existence that bare bones. At least that’s what I mean when I say I’m FI but not yet RE. It’s not keeping up with the Jones it’s having a plan that needs $X to execute.
The fear takes many forms; not just about the market. Some of it is familial; what if my parents need help down the road? Will I be safe as a single woman off exploring the world? Will I be lonely if all my friends are still working/raising their kids and can’t join me on any grand adventures? Or what if by the time they are ready for adventures I’ve already exhausted my adventuring budget?
All those fears keep me at work but the biggest fear – what if I die too soon? – keeps me striving to break free. My walking away date is a fluctuating compromise between the fear of dying at the office and a myriad of the small unknowns.
It doesn’t help that we tend to only hear about the extremes - people so happy they walked when they did or the tragic cases of dying on the way to work. It’s rare to hear from the perspective of a person who pulled the trigger and then had remorse or was constantly under-employed part timing it to support the luxuries they found they didn’t like living without.
Yes, this. I don't have $1M, or even close to it. But I do have a hefty safety margin in my spreadsheet. Safe withdrawal would be much higher than expenses, including the mortgage with 5 years left at that point, and not counting social security! Maybe I'll change my mind once we get closer, but I'm not sure.
We'd like to travel, internationally especially. If we FIRE but then can't afford to do this what's the point? Then I'd rather work and travel 2-3 weeks per year, than be retired and only stay at home.
We're picky about where we want to live. Maybe we could retired to rural Idaho. But I might prefer to continue working and live somewhere I enjoy (I'm sure idaho is nice, just not for me)
If I can work out that my SWR can fully fund these important things, and a few others then yes I'd probably go for it. But I want to be sure because going back to work seems difficult, especially if I'm 50 when I FIRE, rather than 38 as some people here.
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You could have "retired" before your working career even started to a life of living under bridges and eating cat food and STILL been the envy of a significant subset (maybe the majority?) of the world's population who have an even worse lot in life. But that's not enough for you, is it?
I have not claimed to be personally immune to this problem.
I just think it's somewhat hypocritical of us to condemn people who work til 62 to afford their cable television and luxury cars, when we are doing the exact same thing working until 40, or even 30, to afford our organic food and netflix. They are equivalent consumerist bullshit, except in scale.
If the point of this forum is to support people in their quest to reclaim their lives from corporate slavery, why do we continue to condone slaving away to support some luxuries but not others? How do you decide what's worthy of giving up your freedom for one more year?
Does getting from a 3.8% SWR to a 3.5% SWR really add that much more happiness to your life? Does it add more happiness than an entire year of life spent doing anything other than work?
As long as you draw the line somewhere between 'no money' and 'all of the money' there's going to be room for debate about what is enough, as you demonstrated in your silly property tax increase to gulfstream continuum. I certainly don't condemn those who choose to work to 62 or thing anyone who works past 40 suffers a moral or cognitive disability. It's a personal preference.
FI is more about freedom than anything and I would argue that who works several years longer than having enough for a bare bones ERE budget has more lifetime freedom from the additional opportunities and safety the money affords, especially if they don't hate their job.
If you retire decades before traditional retirement age, you're still going to want to do *something* productive. Maybe will be something like writing novels nobody wants to read, but for most people it will include doing some things that bring in some amount of money. That I would think was somewhat of a moral failing if you wanted the last 50 years of your life to be 100% leisure.
I don't understand that hostility towards people who choose to keep full-time jobs for now.
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I have not claimed to be personally immune to this problem.
I just think it's somewhat hypocritical of us to condemn people who work til 62 to afford their cable television and luxury cars, when we are doing the exact same thing working until 40, or even 30, to afford our organic food and netflix. They are equivalent consumerist bullshit, except in scale.
If the point of this forum is to support people in their quest to reclaim their lives from corporate slavery, why do we continue to condone slaving away to support some luxuries but not others? How do you decide what's worthy of giving up your freedom for one more year?
Does getting from a 3.8% SWR to a 3.5% SWR really add that much more happiness to your life? Does it add more happiness than an entire year of life spent doing anything other than work?
I couldn't agree more, but I would just add that there is also hypocrisy (or maybe simply myopia) in our inability to derive happiness from that life of corporate slavery when by all odds the genetic lottery should have had us born into a life of struggle for basic human survival in the third world. (And I am far from personally immune to that problem as well.)
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+1 brooklynguy
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FI is more about freedom than anything and I would argue that who works several years longer than having enough for a bare bones ERE budget has more lifetime freedom from the additional opportunities and safety the money affords, especially if they don't hate their job.
I suspect Brad Pitt feels that he has more freedom than you do because you can't afford to charter a jet to Cannes every year. How do you survive the hardship of it all?
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Brad Pitt certainly does have a level of freedom you and I will never attain, including the freedom to act in big budget movies. What's your point? You have to decide what's right for you.
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You could have "retired" before your working career even started to a life of living under bridges and eating cat food and STILL been the envy of a significant subset (maybe the majority?) of the world's population who have an even worse lot in life. But that's not enough for you, is it?
I have not claimed to be personally immune to this problem.
I just think it's somewhat hypocritical of us to condemn people who work til 62 to afford their cable television and luxury cars, when we are doing the exact same thing working until 40, or even 30, to afford our organic food and netflix. They are equivalent consumerist bullshit, except in scale.
If the point of this forum is to support people in their quest to reclaim their lives from corporate slavery, why do we continue to condone slaving away to support some luxuries but not others? How do you decide what's worthy of giving up your freedom for one more year?
Does getting from a 3.8% SWR to a 3.5% SWR really add that much more happiness to your life? Does it add more happiness than an entire year of life spent doing anything other than work?
...
I don't understand that hostility towards people who choose to keep full-time jobs for now.
I don't think sol has hostility towards working folk. He is questioning the tendency of the forums to deliver face punches to cable TV subscribers, but not to people who are still working to travel internationally. Why is your luxury more acceptable than someone else's?
My answer to the overall question is that if someone is making an intentional choice about what they pay for and not just following the masses, then that is enough to justify it. Stop shelling out money mindlessly, figure your life out for yourself and maybe you will stop making the same boring complaints about your horrible boss or the terrible morning commute.
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I don't think sol has hostility towards working folk.
No, none at all. I still work.
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So do these people: http://money.cnn.com/gallery/retirement/2014/10/01/americas-oldest-workers/index.html
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If the point of this forum is to support people in their quest to reclaim their lives from corporate slavery, why do we continue to condone slaving away to support some luxuries but not others? How do you decide what's worthy of giving up your freedom for one more year?
Your last sentence is the answer right there. Having the freedom to decide between working and whatever thing you're trying to fund is all the difference. Slavery implies having no freedom to choose, but instead having someone choose for you. This can be an apt description (although hyperbolic, especially for bona fide slaves) of having to work to support an ongoing lifestyle. If losing your job would mean being unable to pay for living expenses after a very short time, you could be described as being a slave to your job. You can't reasonably quit.
But taking steps towards FI is getting away from that slavery. Having the choice to decide what luxuries to fund (or not) or what SWR to follow is a game changer. It's a mindful, conscious choice rather than being forced to work, no?
I think mega-earning people are fundamentally no different than us, just on a different scale. Many celebrities or high earners work to feed their egos, or because they're influential, or in some cases because they would literally be broke after a short time with their high spending. It's the same reasons us regular folks work.
Brad Pitt might think he has more freedom because of his high earnings, but if his attachment to his corporate jet makes him unwilling to give it up, than he's no better off than me if I'm attached to $49/month cable TV and working/saving to fund it.
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Thanks (I think). ;-)
Yeah, it's really about as good of a cubicle job as you can get. Good people to work with. The products we work on have a benefit in society. There's just enough Dilbertish type stuff going on to have a laugh about. Flexibility in coming in and out when I please. And I get about 6 weeks of vacation a year. Any layoff severance package in the future will cover my costs for about a year. There just doesn't seem to be a reason to leave yet. Except for the commute (self-imposed by wanting to live by the beach though).
6 weeks vacation?! Wow that would be hard to give up. The good thing is that you can have lots of time off (assuming they let you) and that goes a long way to waiting until you are in a position to cut the cord permanently. I think lack of vacation time for most Americans is probably one of the biggest reasons they want to leave their jobs. If we had longer breaks like they do in other parts of the world then maybe more people would want to stay working.
Well technically it's 6 weeks of PTO which also includes sick time. But I hardly ever take a sick day. In fact, this PTO policy ended up encouraging people to go to work even when sick in order to save the PTO for vacation. In the past, we had "unlimited" sick time as salaried employees, which means you hardly ever took sick time unless you were really sick...so the move to add two more weeks to our vacation and call it PTO was a blessing for me as now I have two more weeks to take off.
My department is actually very good about allowing you to take your fully allotted vacation time. Even with that, there are a bunch of workaholics that don't use all of their time and lose it at the rollover at the end of the year. Not me! I keep pretty good track of it and take every hour allotted to me, even if it means I do staycations to use the time. If we don't use it, we lose it.
I don't have to check my email or report in to work while away. It is not expected or common. But there are some workaholics that still do. Just today this one manager was roaming the halls on his PTO day and others were making fun of him for showing up to work on his day off. Insane!
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I don't work because essentially, I can't due to living overseas. I hate that, and really want to get back to work. That is not due to the money, but because I get a sense of purpose and fulfillment from working. I've yet to fond anything else that gives me those things in the same amounts as working. I'm just not ready to be retired, I guess. I think that also has a lot to do with feeling work was taken away, rather than having it be my choice to give it up.
DH works in part because he has a contract and basically, he's not allowed to quit, so even if he wanted to, he couldn't. But if that went away, he'd still work. Work is his hobby, in many ways. He'll come home from a 10 hour day and spend a couple hours on the computer researching Sharepoint to see if he can optimize something in his office. That's interesting for him. I have a hard time imagining him not working, and I suspect he will work in some form or another long after FIRE.
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You could have "retired" before your working career even started to a life of living under bridges and eating cat food and STILL been the envy of a significant subset (maybe the majority?) of the world's population who have an even worse lot in life. But that's not enough for you, is it?
I have not claimed to be personally immune to this problem.
I just think it's somewhat hypocritical of us to condemn people who work til 62 to afford their cable television and luxury cars, when we are doing the exact same thing working until 40, or even 30, to afford our organic food and netflix. They are equivalent consumerist bullshit, except in scale.
If the point of this forum is to support people in their quest to reclaim their lives from corporate slavery, why do we continue to condone slaving away to support some luxuries but not others? How do you decide what's worthy of giving up your freedom for one more year?
Does getting from a 3.8% SWR to a 3.5% SWR really add that much more happiness to your life? Does it add more happiness than an entire year of life spent doing anything other than work?
I think that having enough for FIRE doesn't mean that you have to retire. People can have numerous reasons for not retiring ranging from being risk averse/conservative (and therefore needing a bit more to feel comfortable) to enjoying your work and finding some meaning in working.
I think the idea is being conscious of spending on what you want and need. But people make their own choices on how they decide their wants and needs.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Humfsis-QLI
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Many of us should already be retired, yet continue to work out of fear that we'll have to
actually utilize our safety margins.
I honestly feel I'm not yet at the point where I can retire safely however I also feel I'm going to be working past the point where I need to simply because I'm concerned about the safety margin.
I don't have an answer however I feel I'm living life now as well as I can if happiness is the main point of life apart from work. I also like my job but its something I would rather do without.
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My reasons to keep working are a little different. I'm also not in the right category for Sol's original comment (sorry Sol!)
I'm active duty Navy with 24 years in. I have about 1 year left in my current assignment and could retire at 25 years. I've opted to do one more tour (3 years) which will take me to 28. The final tour is a dream job for me instructing at a senior war college. I think this will be a very fulfilling tour and potentially give me the academic creds I need to teach at the college level as an adjunct professor for a part time gig after the Navy.
The longer I stay active duty, the bigger my pension grows, but I think 28 is the most I want to do (max for my rank is 30). The timing is also good for my middle son (who has autism) to finish high school and available vocational training and for my youngest to finish middle school and be ready to start high school as we move.
We are looking at the Pacific Northwest for retirement (Whidbey Island area).
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what makes you think you'll actually pull the trigger when you get to the next rung on the ladder?
Basically because I have better ways to spend my time then go to work. It is though about feeling safe with the stash that I have built up.
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One thing that bothers me is that the cost of living has increased a lot in the past ten years since I've been a homeowner. I worry that my estimates of how much we would need to live on after retirement are too low and that if prices do increase further that we would end up living in poverty. It isn't a likely scenario at this point but I think knowing what it's like to be poor and financially insecure in the past haunts me still. I think once we get to a certain net worth I will start to relax more. Well I hope so anyway!:)
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Why do I keep working? Well, that's one thing about the Navy - if your job sucks, you just wait a couple of years and you get to do something completely different. So for now, I sit in my cubicle in the world's largest office building (the one with 5 sides), and it's terrible. But in less than a year, they're sending my family to live in Germany. And after a 20 year stint, they basically make you a millionaire (whether you want to be or not) by giving you retirement pay. And there are a lot of good people, with an ethical and moral code that seems to deliver more integrity in Sailors and officers than that of the general population.
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One thing that bothers me is that the cost of living has increased a lot in the past ten years since I've been a homeowner. I worry that my estimates of how much we would need to live on after retirement are too low and that if prices do increase further that we would end up living in poverty. It isn't a likely scenario at this point but I think knowing what it's like to be poor and financially insecure in the past haunts me still. I think once we get to a certain net worth I will start to relax more. Well I hope so anyway!:)
I've also felt this way but I am 100% willing to sell my house and move to a less expensive area and a less expensive home - or rent. I always feel I have the option to live lower if things don't work out as planned and higher costs outstrip my income. And I think I'd live a really good life and I don't think I'd end up in poverty (and I'm sure each person has a different definition of what poverty is to them). So if you are willing to be flexible then much of that worry goes away.
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My reasons to keep working are a little different. I'm also not in the right category for Sol's original comment (sorry Sol!)
I'm active duty Navy with 24 years in. I have about 1 year left in my current assignment and could retire at 25 years. I've opted to do one more tour (3 years) which will take me to 28. The final tour is a dream job for me instructing at a senior war college. I think this will be a very fulfilling tour and potentially give me the academic creds I need to teach at the college level as an adjunct professor for a part time gig after the Navy.
The longer I stay active duty, the bigger my pension grows, but I think 28 is the most I want to do (max for my rank is 30). The timing is also good for my middle son (who has autism) to finish high school and available vocational training and for my youngest to finish middle school and be ready to start high school as we move.
We are looking at the Pacific Northwest for retirement (Whidbey Island area).
Hmmm.... this is why my ex-hubby and I divorced. Both active duty Coast Guard, spent a huge amount of time apart during the approx. 17 years we were married (20 together), made a pact before marriage that we'd get out at 20 at the latest, I did, he decided to do the "just one more year" several times, I had my own civilian career I didn't want to give up to follow him and I didn't want to continue living apart any longer, he wanted to stay in for that "one more transfer for the really cool assignment". So we went our separate ways - happily and with no bitterness or remorse. He's still in and still doing the "just one more year" thing for the next cool assignment and we've been divorced for over 10 years. That's alotta "just one more years" :-)! He must be in at over 30 year now.
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My reasons to keep working are a little different. I'm also not in the right category for Sol's original comment (sorry Sol!)
I'm active duty Navy with 24 years in. I have about 1 year left in my current assignment and could retire at 25 years. I've opted to do one more tour (3 years) which will take me to 28. The final tour is a dream job for me instructing at a senior war college. I think this will be a very fulfilling tour and potentially give me the academic creds I need to teach at the college level as an adjunct professor for a part time gig after the Navy.
The longer I stay active duty, the bigger my pension grows, but I think 28 is the most I want to do (max for my rank is 30). The timing is also good for my middle son (who has autism) to finish high school and available vocational training and for my youngest to finish middle school and be ready to start high school as we move.
We are looking at the Pacific Northwest for retirement (Whidbey Island area).
Hmmm.... this is why my ex-hubby and I divorced. Both active duty Coast Guard, spent a huge amount of time apart during the approx. 17 years we were married (20 together), made a pact before marriage that we'd get out at 20 at the latest, I did, he decided to do the "just one more year" several times, I had my own civilian career I didn't want to give up to follow him and I didn't want to continue living apart any longer, he wanted to stay in for that "one more transfer for the really cool assignment". So we went our separate ways - happily and with no bitterness or remorse. He's still in and still doing the "just one more year" thing for the next cool assignment and we've been divorced for over 10 years. That's alotta "just one more years" :-)! He must be in at over 30 year now.
CINCLANTHOUSE is onboard with the plan and excited about the tour/timing for the kids, but I certainly understand the "one more tour" danger.
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Ultimately, I don't have enough to punch my ticket on the infinite salary train. But rather than focus on what I can't do, I find enjoyment in what I can do.
I get to pick my projects and most of my project team members. I can set a flexible daily work schedule--come in late from a doctor's appt or just casual sex and a late breakfast with the wife, bike in early to beat the traffic and enjoy the morning views, take a long lunch to socialize, work out, or play rec league games, work from home to meet the repairman, etc. I can opt for business travel domestically, internationally, or not at all with no repercussions (plays into the project selections, of course). I can present new ideas that my manager will discuss, critique, and promote--the decision is usually based on timing and the practicality of my idea. I can eat lunch, socialize, and work with a lot of smart people doing really cool stuff.
When you're enjoying life as is, the incentive and "longing" for something different is infrequent and barely louder than a whisper. Would I feel differently if I were completely ready to FIRE? Maybe but not certainly.
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My reasons to keep working are a little different. I'm also not in the right category for Sol's original comment (sorry Sol!)
I'm active duty Navy with 24 years in. I have about 1 year left in my current assignment and could retire at 25 years. I've opted to do one more tour (3 years) which will take me to 28. The final tour is a dream job for me instructing at a senior war college. I think this will be a very fulfilling tour and potentially give me the academic creds I need to teach at the college level as an adjunct professor for a part time gig after the Navy.
The longer I stay active duty, the bigger my pension grows, but I think 28 is the most I want to do (max for my rank is 30). The timing is also good for my middle son (who has autism) to finish high school and available vocational training and for my youngest to finish middle school and be ready to start high school as we move.
We are looking at the Pacific Northwest for retirement (Whidbey Island area).
Hmmm.... this is why my ex-hubby and I divorced. Both active duty Coast Guard, spent a huge amount of time apart during the approx. 17 years we were married (20 together), made a pact before marriage that we'd get out at 20 at the latest, I did, he decided to do the "just one more year" several times, I had my own civilian career I didn't want to give up to follow him and I didn't want to continue living apart any longer, he wanted to stay in for that "one more transfer for the really cool assignment". So we went our separate ways - happily and with no bitterness or remorse. He's still in and still doing the "just one more year" thing for the next cool assignment and we've been divorced for over 10 years. That's alotta "just one more years" :-)! He must be in at over 30 year now.
CINCLANTHOUSE is onboard with the plan and excited about the tour/timing for the kids, but I certainly understand the "one more tour" danger.
:-)!! That makes it sooo much easier.
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One thing that bothers me is that the cost of living has increased a lot in the past ten years since I've been a homeowner. I worry that my estimates of how much we would need to live on after retirement are too low and that if prices do increase further that we would end up living in poverty. It isn't a likely scenario at this point but I think knowing what it's like to be poor and financially insecure in the past haunts me still. I think once we get to a certain net worth I will start to relax more. Well I hope so anyway!:)
I've also felt this way but I am 100% willing to sell my house and move to a less expensive area and a less expensive home - or rent. I always feel I have the option to live lower if things don't work out as planned and higher costs outstrip my income. And I think I'd live a really good life and I don't think I'd end up in poverty (and I'm sure each person has a different definition of what poverty is to them). So if you are willing to be flexible then much of that worry goes away.
Yes, exactly. There are a lot of options even if things don't go as planned.
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Do we face-punch people who are saving 15% and want to retire at 62? I mostly see face punches for people who have goals that are not inline with their actions and people who are going to hurt others with their money problems.
Personally, I am not retired because I want to raise kids in a way that is within the normal range (24k per year for a family). They'll know that we spend less than most people do but they won't be freaks that live in an RV.
My goal is pretty close to 1/5 what my friends spend. I have most of the things they they do, but in a different form; a shared beater instead of a pair of new cars, an apartment in the bad side of town instead of a house in the heights, home cooked Mexican food instead of home cooked French dishes. I think it would be hard to maintain a social life spending orders of magnitude less than your friends.
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I just think it's somewhat hypocritical of us to condemn people <...snip...>
Does getting from a 3.8% SWR to a 3.5% SWR really add that much more happiness to your life?
Does it add more happiness than an entire year of life spent doing anything other than work?
Personally I don't outwardly condemn them, although it is easy to fall into the trap of feeling inwardly smug or superior. In general I am supportive of people living enlightened and thoughtful lives according to their values, and I recognize and accept that I am a financial oddball. I choose differently than most do because my values and personality and life history are different.
I have a voracious desire for financial security for reasons that I won't get into here. Getting to a 3.5% SWR doesn't add much happiness directly, but it improves my feeling (illusion?) of security, which reduces my stress, which increases my happiness.
Your last question I think, is the crux of the matter. Although I'm approximately FIRE today (my withdrawal rate would be 4.12%) I've tentatively set a FIRE date of 2/5/2016. I've tried to evaluate honestly whether the extra time at the workplace is worth it to me. So far I have decided it is, but there are days when I think of a former co-worker who died in his mid-50s due to brain cancer, or I think of being at work instead of being more available to spend time with and help my kids, or I have interactions with annoying coworkers. Right now my solution is to just use my vacation time more freely than I have in the past, and take work less seriously overall. I am also considering a leave of absence, which would keep me accruing calendar time towards stock option vesting but would let me avoid work for a while.
I was going to say that I am immune to moving the goal posts, but in retrospect that hasn't been true. I first thought I would FIRE the day I hit 4% SWR. I past that point about July 8, 2013. (I'm back above 4% because I've increased spending since then.). Now I'm aiming for 3.5% SWR and a fully funded Roth pipeline, which should occur around that 2/5/2016 date. I don't know if I'll move the goalposts again at that point. We'll see.
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I totally understand Sol's argument. Could I retire today? For sure, at 4% our stash would bring us 30k a year, enough to live well for the rest of our lives.
There are a the main reasons (excuses?) why we don't do it.
- I still enjoy my work. I changed job last year and so far so good. It pays well too which helps.
- I married 2 years ago and my wife is not on board with the very early retirement idea, she would like to pull the trigger at 50ish. She is on board on the FI side, she totally understand that freedom from having to work is pretty powerful.
- I am scared. It is irrational but I am afraid that I will be totally bored.
- Uncertainty about future cash needs as we have our first child on the way.
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I still work for a variety of reasons, not all of them good ones:
- I have an unholy love of my house, which is not extravagant (2400 sf for a family of five), but is not Mustachian either, and it has a big mortgage, high taxes, and high maintenance and upkeep costs.
- I am a huge procrastinator, and I fear that without the structure of work and externally-imposed deadlines, I would never get off the couch. And even though most mornings I don't feel like going to work, once I am there, I feel engaged and productive and, quite honestly, often happier than I am on the weekends.
- On the weekends, I tend to feel restless and bored. I hope this is because I haven't built enough of a life outside of work to sustain me (because there's not that much energy left after work), but I don't know.
- I worry that if something happened to our stash or one of us became disabled or a child required more resources (two of our kids are what I'd call "special needs"), we wouldn't be able to afford it and/or find decent jobs again.
So, I toil on, not particularly happy working, but worried that I'd be even more unhappy not working. Boy, that's a rather depressing outlook, isn't it? I'm working on it...
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Because I'm greedy and always want more money.
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I have only been working "full time" for ~4 years......I have another ~13 left till I can maintain my current lifestyle indefinitely.
That being said, I don't hate my job at all. I also am looking at ways to create passive income streams, earn extra income, and with a little luck maybe be able to pull the trigger in less than 13 years.
I can also see myself continuing to do some kind of part time work in semi retirement purely for the pleasure, and to be able to possibly afford little luxuries here and there that are not in the overall budget/plan.
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I've been mostly a SAHM for the past 17 years. Now that the kids are old enough to be mostly self sufficient, I've decided to start on a few projects that will be my work. I just want to feel connected and have something to do with my time. I doubt DH will ever stop working. He can't sit still for more than a few days.
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So I can afford to play golf every day when I retire.
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I'm on record here as having "retired" at 42. Great so far. Monthly dividends clocking in around $4500, yet our expenses range from $2000 to $2500. In other words, there is a comfortable buffer between passive income and expenses. Yet my wife still works... for a variety of reasons which we have talked at length about with one another.
Reason # 1: She still enjoys working. Enjoys the actual "doing" of her job. The social interaction, the sense of belonging to a team. I never experienced ANY of this in my career.
Reason # 2: She is unsure that she wants to live a "Mustachian" lifestyle till the end of time. Yes, she was on board more or less for the past ten years - after all, it allowed us to build up a nice Stache' and made it possible for hubby (me) to leave his meat-grinder career and more resemble the guy she agreed to marry. But she wants the OPTION to open up the pursestrings in the future. She doesn't mind working longer to make this a possibility. OK then... makes me squirm a bit, but ok.
Reason #3 : She isn't convinced that she is ready, in terms of hobbies and interests outside of work, to fill up all those free hours in a day once ER'ed. This has been a hot topic on this forum lately - people unsure of what to "do all day" once retired. My wife recognizes that she needs more things on her plate once her career is over. She is starting to develop her interests now.
We are thinking right now she will work another 5 to 10 years, or between ages 47 and 52.
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Concern about early years of retirement and the potential for a few years of poor returns is part of why I am working. I also have a well compensated job that is meaningful and generally satisfying and without too many sucky aspects. And I am socializing my wife to the idea that we can and should pull the trigger.
Oh, and related to the first reason, because I lost about $100k in the market dive over the past couple of weeks. Can someone out there help me out and reverse that???
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Oh, and related to the first reason, because I lost about $100k in the market dive over the past couple of weeks. Can someone out there help me out and reverse that???
Abracadabra, your wish has been granted. DJIA at time of post: 16,321. DJIA today: 17,644.
Hope you didn't sell low.
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The math says I can but with 2 kids in college those monthly outgoings are too scary for me to pull the plug, - another few years :)
Plus I will not have to worry about any of this BS - http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-small-things-could-you-do-to-save-but-you-usually-don't-and-why/ ;)
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Some of the posters here have shared their personal progress towards FIRE, saying they have 1 million dollars or 1.3 million dollars, yet they still work. I have less than that, but way more than Jacob at ERE had when he retired, and yet I still work.
I'm in this camp, but I'm still working for several reasons:
- I'm still paying for my kids to go through college. It's something that matters to me.
- If I put in a couple more years, I'll have a pension for the rest of my life (and while nothing's 100% certain, my state's pension system is health). This ties into the "safety net" thing; I don't want to be too close to the financial edge.
- Looking at my older relatives, it's realistic to think I could live past age 100 -- probably in good health until the very end. As such, I'm thinking that my money needs to last me a looong time, so I feel it's safer to be a bit over-prepared.
- I figure it's easier to build up a healthy stash of cash NOW while I'm still in a professional job that I like . . . rather than try to return later, if I under-plan.
- And I'll still retire well under the average age.
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Why haven't you retired yet?
Brad Pitt is a multimillionaire. By my standards he has a bunch of reasons to quit working, like a wife and a bunch of kids and more money than he'll ever need. Yet he's still making movies.
Some of the posters here have shared their personal progress towards FIRE, saying they have 1 million dollars or 1.3 million dollars, yet they still work. I have less than that, but way more than Jacob at ERE had when he retired, and yet I still work.
If the whole point of the MMM blog is to help people reach FI by cultivating a stoic perspective on life, to show them that you don't need to be rich to be happy, then why are we all still trying to be rich? Should Jacob try to be as rich as me? Should I try to be as rich as Brad Pitt? What's the cutoff?
Isn't continuing to work to support your chosen level of lifestyle extravagance always equally ridiculous? Maybe Brad Pitt feels he can't quite afford to retire yet because his Italian Villa, though totally paid off, doesn't have its own nest egg large enough to pay its property taxes in perpetuity. Or because he's only leaving his kids $10 million each when he dies, maybe not enough for them to continue living the way they do now. I'm still working because my fancy house isn't paid off, and we'd have to make sacrifices to our lifestyle spending in order to clear the mortgage. But am I happier than Jacob was? Or Bakari (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/profile/?u=412)? Or Brad?
Unless you're still carrying crushing debt, why are you still working? What future or current level of extravagance do you aspire towards that has kept you working, long past the point at which other people have pulled the ER trigger? Is that luxury really worth more years of your life doing a job you don't love? Why isn't keeping up with the Joneses just as silly for me as it is for everyone at the Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/)?
I'd expect there to be a continuum of retirement targets here based on how badly people hate their jobs. Like if you have a high pressure finance job but make a lot of money, I'd expect you to retire much sooner than a low-paid office worker who kind of likes hanging out with her coworkers. But that's not what we see. Instead, everyone seems to continue working as long as they can stand it, or until they hit some predetermined number that is in no way based on their actual happiness level.
I think maybe we're going about this all wrong. Many of us should already be retired, yet continue to work out of fear that we'll have to actually utilize our safety margins. You must not hate your job that much, if your'e willing to volunteer for definitely suffering through more years of working in order to avoid the possibility of maybe suffering through cutting back your expenses in the future.
I always wonder about this. I mean, maybe Brad Pitt just really likes making movies. But I work in the finance industry (investment banking, private equity) and am surrounded by seriously wealthy people who still work 12+ hours per day, go on an insane amount of business trips etc. For me it's just 3 more years and I am out (at which point my working career will have lastet 8 years since I graduated, with almost a year travel-break). The people I talk about have been in this industry for 20+ years, I can calculate in my head an approximate figure of what they must have earned to date. Sure, some of them may have a super duper crazy extravagant lifestyle, but even with that, I know for a fact that some of those people could retire and still spend what they spend...I mean I know some of their net worths is over 20m! And even for those that it isn't, have they never thought about downsizing a bit and just calling it quits? I just don't get it. Maybe they really like their jobs? Personally, I don't see anything likeable about it. But alas, to each their own...but I am baffled nonetheless.
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To be able to afford a very comfortable retirement.
I am afraid once I stop working, I'll find more ways to spend money - especially dining and travel
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I am in the opposite situation of most MMMers. I am somewhat desperate to get back to work. I had to leave the workforce when we moved overseas. I've worked part time when possible, and now I volunteer and just started a graduate program.
It's not about being rich. (I certainly wouldn't have chosen Library and Info Science if it was!) It's about personal satisfaction and fulfillment I get out of working in a professional environment.
By the time DH is done with his first career, our savings and his military pension mean we'd be okay with a small lifestyle hit. He wants to have a second career (or to spend longer than required for retirement benefits at his current career(, and there is a very sizable inheritance in my future (hopefully distant future!). So really, we will be fine. But I want to work. The notion that work is simply about getting rich is pretty myopic. For some people, work may be about funding a lifestyle and nothing more, but for others, it i part hobby, part social interaction, part intellectual challenge, and many other things.
DH will continue to work because he feels what he does is important, it is part of his identity, he likes the challenge, and many other reasons, none of which are about lifestyle extravagance. We anticipate having more money than we know what to do with (and not even any children to whom we'll leave it). We don't keep working so that our end of life donation to the San Diego Zoo can be bigger or get our name on a plaque in front of the hippos.
I drive a 20 year old car, and DH drives a 15 year old car, even as we are surrounded by people who buy new Mercedes because that's apparently what an American who moves to Germany does. We aren't 100% free of Jones Syndrome, but our case is far, far more mild than the average American certainly. We don't inspire to extravagance. That's not why we work.
Maybe Brad Pitt really enjoys his craft.
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I have no money. Thus, I need to work.
lol, pretty much this.
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Goodlife -- I work in a similar industry and I'm convinced that some of those people only recognize themselves in the mirror when they're at the office. If they couldn't introduce themselves as "MD at suchandsuch" or "I work in finance" they'd have an existential crisis.
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I work to save for FI!
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I'm nowhere near FIRE, but if I didn't have kids I would quit the corporate gig and do a little freelance, a little teaching, a little of this and that. I do have kids, though, and I'm saving for their college costs. It's a labor of love and I'm happy to do it.
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We're more or less FI. I work in the technology sector, and I currently have a pretty sweet gig doing research at industry salary and benefits (as opposed to the university scenario).
I took a couple of weeks off around Christmas this year - vacation I couldn't carry over, but also to see what I'd do with my time.
There wasn't enough snow to go skiing. And at my age, you can only run so many times in 2 weeks.
Guess what? I spent my spare time doing my own technology projects. I've been doing this type of work since I was a kid, perhaps not unlike MMM does renovations. Given that we're in Ottawa, I'd rather be doing the work with the backing of a big company instead of doing it on my own. If I was on my own, I'd probably try to turn it into a product, there are lots of channels to sell software with all the AppStores out there now. In some ways starting a company would be fun, but to grow you need to hire people, and then you need to manage people and that means people issues and politics and I hardly have to do any of that in my current job. And then, wait, I'm not retired anymore, and I have all the problems of trying to run a company instead of just doing the technology piece.
Now when the kids are on their own, it may be a different story. We can move somewhere else (like Canmore, or Fernie, or I don't know, Squamish), especially if Canadian real estate prices decline a bit. Then I can think of lots of non-technology things to do!
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I'm on record here as having "retired" at 42. Great so far. Monthly dividends clocking in around $4500, yet our expenses range from $2000 to $2500. In other words, there is a comfortable buffer between passive income and expenses. Yet my wife still works... for a variety of reasons which we have talked at length about with one another.
Dang, that's a healthy rate. Congrats. If you don't mind sharing, what is the mix you use to generate the dividends? Individual stocks? Index funds? Have you sought high yielding stocks?
To contribute to this thread, my wife started working recently to dip her toe back into the working world after I "retired".....fear and to have more $$ and keep busy. I expect to go back to work in some capacity since while I have enough $$ to be retired, I don't have enough $$ to do the stuff I'd prefer to do to fill my time. Kids in school and wife at work leaves a lot of alone time to fill.