Why Do You Guys Decide To Reach FIRE So Early?

[Singuy]

I know most of you guys are currently living a cheap/frugal life...probably spending no more than 20k/year. So at a 4% withdraw rate, all you need is around 500k plus a paid off house to reach FIRE. My question is..why?  So none of you guys have any desire to live a life beyond your current mustachian lifestyle?  Don't you guys eventually want to feel what's like to eat at a better restaurant, travel lavishly, or drive a better car?

I mean if you decide to have 1.5mil instead of 500k, you can have the option to live the 20k lifestyle(and become more wealthy) OR just start to blow your 60k/year..  I'm not sure if I'll ever be onboard with this frugal culture forever.

My wife and I, with our current lifestyle can be FIRE if we want to...sell our house..get a condo..and start the withdraw rate of 4% and we'll be gravy. Also her business will generate a passive income of over 100k/year.  I don't see why we would want to do that since we are only 33 and our child is not even 1 yo....

[neo von retorch]

The point of all of this is to live life according to your true values. Spend money according to what you really value.

So you should pretty much live your ideal life long before you FIRE.

Eating delicious food can happen right in your kitchen. (And perhaps occasionally in an expensive restaurant if that's an experience you value high enough to spend all that money.)

Many do travel "lavishly" in retirement (that is - to beautiful locations, but done intelligently so that it's not more expensive than it needs to be.)

And, of course, the car you own really isn't a high value for many here, so there wouldn't actually be a tangible benefit to spending more on it.

There's a big difference between being frugal, being cheap, or living a life of self-deprivation. I don't think there are many here that advise you to deprive yourself between now and retirement. Instead, you figure out what you really value, and you learn what isn't worth spending money on, because then there's much less waste, and much more true enjoyment.

[undercover]

Don't you guys eventually want to feel what's like to eat at a better restaurant, travel lavishly, or drive a better car?

Why assume that anyone who wants to FIRE hasn't tried those things? For me, I've definitely had my handful of those things and I just don't think that working longer to have them over and over is really worth it.

The most important part of FIRE is FI. You can do whatever the hell you want after you have enough to support the lifestyle that suits you. If you want to do more than you can eventually go back to work. Not everyone here is aiming for absolute FIRE nor is everyone here aiming for a $20k/yr lifestyle.

The main reason people RE is because they'd rather not be tied to a 9-5 or any other form of employment than tied to it. That should be obvious.

If you live on $20k a year and you're happy doing so, then "blowing" $60k or even $150k is not appealing in the least. Just because you can do something doesn't necessarily make it desirable - that also should be obvious.

Many of the things that you think would make you happy usually don't.

• I don't have cable not because I can't afford it, but because it's a complete waste of time full of mediocre content and commercials, and thus, money. I'd rather be reading or watching YouTube or Netflix.
• I don't travel internationally or take planes often in general because I despise airports and they are completely built in the most anti-social way possible. I love staying at home and would 95% of the time rather be at home than anywhere else.
• I don't have a huge house because I don't want the extra space to take care of.
• I don't have an expensive car because a cheaper car is just as good and driving sucks anyway because biking is way better.
• I don't eat expensive meals because they really give me no more satisfaction than a McDonald's hamburger. I find it pretentious and ostentatious, especially in the age of social media. Better yet, cooking at home gives mental benefits, is fresher, healthier, and to me tastes better most of the time.
• I don't upgrade my phone or computer every year because I only buy based on my needs. My electronics (or car for that matter) does not cease to serve me just because a newer model came out.
• I don't buy new clothes not because I can't afford it or don't have the space but because it's mentally freeing to own fewer items and not put so much though into something so silly as your outfit.

So, as you can imagine, for many people having the option to do something that they'd never want to do even if given the option is not appealing nor is it worth being at a job you don't like for longer than you need to be.

[Singuy]

The point of all of this is to live life according to your true values. Spend money according to what you really value.

So you should pretty much live your ideal life long before you FIRE.

Eating delicious food can happen right in your kitchen. (And perhaps occasionally in an expensive restaurant if that's an experience you value high enough to spend all that money.)

Many do travel "lavishly" in retirement (that is - to beautiful locations, but done intelligently so that it's not more expensive than it needs to be.)

And, of course, the car you own really isn't a high value for many here, so there wouldn't actually be a tangible benefit to spending more on it.

Sounds like a lot of you guys get enjoyment from being frugal due to less waste or feeling more accomplished from finding that good deal..or cooking that 5 star meal...so it is beyond "save today so you can retire early tomorrow".  In a sense, frugality is becoming more of a hobby than a lifestyle.

But not everyone is onboard with this...some people DO feel deprived in the saving phrase..and they see every decision they make as a sacrifice for a better future.
 

[undercover]

But not everyone is onboard with this...some people DO feel deprived in the saving phrase..and they see every decision they make as a sacrifice for a better future.

And...what's wrong with that? I think most people feel deprived at a 9-5 job. Deprived of time. Sure, blowing that money at restaurants and traveling more often would probably ease the sting a bit, but they'd rather buy their freedom than any of the temporary things that don't really make you any happier.

Time and freedom is worth more than ANYTHING. So the people here that "sacrifice" in order to retire are actually big spenders in disguise - they're buying TIME.

[Singuy]

Don't you guys eventually want to feel what's like to eat at a better restaurant, travel lavishly, or drive a better car?

Why assume that anyone who wants to FIRE hasn't tried those things?[/li][/list]

I am assuming this because if the person/family have tried those things..then they will have a hard time hitting FIRE. How many of you guys bought a Lambo, spent 2k eating at a restaurant, or 50k on a vacation? If you have and reached FIRE..then you probably know something others don't.

I am wondering because my goal is to hit at least 5 million before calling it quit..and even though my wife and I live a lifestyle of 30k/year today...that doesn't mean I don't want to blow 50k on a fun car in the future..or try out restaurants that cost 1k. I would like the option..maybe I'll hate it..who knows..but retiring early really shuts the possibilities of doing things like that down.

[bacchi]

But not everyone is onboard with this...some people DO feel deprived in the saving phrase..and they see every decision they make as a sacrifice for a better future.

Ah, grasshopper, these people have not yet found the True Mustachian Way (TM).

[Zikoris]

I think you've kind of missed the point of MMM. The whole idea is to live an awesome, fulfilling life, doing all the things you want to do, then retire and use your extra time to do even more awesome stuff. If you're feeling deprived and sacrificing things, I think you need to go back to square one and redo your entire plan/life, because you've screwed up big time.

If you're concerned about losing out on various future options that you're not even sure if you want or not, I think you should spend some time figuring out what you actually want out of life, and making a plan based on the reality of that.

[neo von retorch]

Sounds like a lot of you guys get enjoyment from being frugal due to less waste or feeling more accomplished from finding that good deal..or cooking that 5 star meal...so it is beyond "save today so you can retire early tomorrow".  In a sense, frugality is becoming more of a hobby than a lifestyle.

But not everyone is onboard with this...some people DO feel deprived in the saving phrase..and they see every decision they make as a sacrifice for a better future.

Yes - many do enjoy optimizing. Optimizing getting enjoyment from spending (time and money.)
That is a lifestyle. Not really a hobby. It's a way of living your life to the fullest.

The things we think are worth trying in retirement - I think many of us plan for this. However, I still don't see many of us seeing a lot of value in excessively expensive things. It's a case of diminishing returns. Not to mention the idea that we make life good for us every day by freeing up our time and giving ourselves freedom of choice, by learning how to be the best version of ourselves, extending our own capabilities to make great things (whether it's great tasting food, or our own muscle-powered transportation.)

It's realizing that the things we truly value are self-improvement, relationships, and creating experiences for ourselves. And alongside that, realizing that we don't value "spending for the sake of spending" or $1000 plates of food or $200,000 cars that someone else built. That isn't self. It's merely consumption.

It's certainly possible that if you are consciously avoiding spending on things you care about, you'll feel deprived. If your income is too low and your fixed expenses are too high, you're probably unhappy. You can try to solve that by improving your skillset and improving your career aspects, or you can choose to ignore the root issues and mask them with temporary distractions.

Either way, every minute we sell our skills to earn financial freedom may be a "sacrifice for a better future", particularly if we don't enjoy our job. But if we're going to make that sacrifice, we'd like to know that it's worth it. How much longer do you have to work for "the man" in order to buy an exotic car? A month? A year? Five?! Once again, what do you value most? Your freedom of choice, or an expensive brand name possession?

[undercover]

Don't you guys eventually want to feel what's like to eat at a better restaurant, travel lavishly, or drive a better car?

Why assume that anyone who wants to FIRE hasn't tried those things?[/li][/list]

I am assuming this because if the person/family have tried those things..then they will have a hard time hitting FIRE. How many of you guys bought a Lambo, spent 2k eating at a restaurant, or 50k on a vacation? If you have and reached FIRE..then you probably know something others don't.

I am wondering because my goal is to hit at least 5 million before calling it quit..and even though my wife and I live a lifestyle of 30k/year today...that doesn't mean I don't want to blow 50k on a fun car in the future..or try out restaurants that cost 1k. I would like the option..maybe I'll hate it..who knows..but retiring early really shuts the possibilities of doing things like that down.

The problem is that your idea of lavish and someone else's doesn't have to coincide, and that's fine. And even if it does, just because they tried it once doesn't mean that they will continue doing so. Furthermore, if you're happy with a 1 star restaurant, then go to a 3 star restaurant and aren't any happier, why would you think going to a 5 star restaurant would make you any happier? If someone drives a beater car, has tried a Corvette and didn't like it, why the hell would they think a Lamborghini would make them happier? You can apply this to anything. You don't *need* to try a $50k vacation to know that you wouldn't enjoy it anymore than camping.

You say you could FIRE now. That would insinuate that you're perfectly happy with your lifestyle right now. How are you so sure that increasing your spending will actually make you any happier? Are you willing to give up your time and freedom now in order to afford that "fun" car and eat food that is perceivably but not necessarily better?

And I still think you're missing the point. You asked why people FIRE earlier than they "need" to. It's simple and obvious. They'd rather have their time and freedom now than be tied to any type of employment in order to afford those "fancier" things. This is not about deprivation. It's about having your priorities in order and not spending just to spend. Focus your spending on what makes you happy. Continue working and making money if that makes you happy. It's not a contest.

[neo von retorch]

Ah, grasshopper, these people have not yet found the True Mustachian Way (TM).

Is that

True Mustachian Way ^(TM)

or should it really be (TMW)? :)

[Frugal D]

MMM and frugality is a virtue. If you watch Fight Club and can't understand it or don't appreciate it, which I'm guessing you don't, then you haven't arrived yet. 

As for nice restaurants...I work in sales and eat very expensive steaks on a regular basis. They taste even better knowing I'm not paying for them.

[Singuy]

I understand there's a diminishing return in practically everything. A 100k car is not 2x better than a 50k car, and definitely not 10x better than a 10k car. Same with restaurants or vacations.

But here's a thought..maybe before you are FIRE, you didn't really enjoy that one time you over spent on something maybe have more to do with the fact that you OVER spend on something rather than the item itself. So what if we take the "over spending" part out of it..now you are faced with say 400k/year of passive income..would you still feel the same about those overpriced items you didn't enjoy before?  I guess the MMM way is to feel ..yes..you still have no additional enjoyment out of those things.....But with a passive income of 400k/year..almost 10x more than what you would normally spend in a given year..I feel a LOT more options open up to you. Now you can be a better philanthropist..or can start a business you always wanted and could care less about it going under..etc etc.

[Spork]

Read a little more...  Not all of us are living on $20k a year.  We do a quite a bit more than that... and some others are WAY more than that.

The whole purpose here isn't to brag about who can live more cheaply (though... that can be fun occasionally).  The point is to think about it.  Instead of blindly spending like the guy in the next cube and working until 65 -- THINK about how you want to live your life and then do that.  If that means you need more money to retire, then ... that's what you do.

[stoaX]

Don't you guys eventually want to feel what's like to eat at a better restaurant, travel lavishly, or drive a better car?

Why assume that anyone who wants to FIRE hasn't tried those things? For me, I've definitely had my handful of those things and I just don't think that working longer to have them over and over is really worth it.

The most important part of FIRE is FI. You can do whatever the hell you want after you have enough to support the lifestyle that suits you. If you want to do more than you can eventually go back to work. Not everyone here is aiming for absolute FIRE nor is everyone here aiming for a $20k/yr lifestyle.

The main reason people RE is because they'd rather not be tied to a 9-5 or any other form of employment than tied to it. That should be obvious.

If you live on $20k a year and you're happy doing so, then "blowing" $60k or even $150k is not appealing in the least. Just because you can do something doesn't necessarily make it desirable - that also should be obvious.

Many of the things that you think would make you happy usually don't.

• I don't have cable not because I can't afford it, but because it's a complete waste of time full of mediocre content and commercials, and thus, money. I'd rather be reading or watching YouTube or Netflix.
• I don't travel internationally or take planes often in general because I despise airports and they are completely built in the most anti-social way possible. I love staying at home and would 95% of the time rather be at home than anywhere else.
• I don't have a huge house because I don't want the extra space to take care of.
• I don't have an expensive car because a cheaper car is just as good and driving sucks anyway because biking is way better.
• I don't eat expensive meals because they really give me no more satisfaction than a McDonald's hamburger. I find it pretentious and ostentatious, especially in the age of social media. Better yet, cooking at home gives mental benefits, is fresher, healthier, and to me tastes better most of the time.
• I don't upgrade my phone or computer every year because I only buy based on my needs. My electronics (or car for that matter) does not cease to serve me just because a newer model came out.
• I don't buy new clothes not because I can't afford it or don't have the space but because it's mentally freeing to own fewer items and not put so much though into something so silly as your outfit.

So, as you can imagine, for many people having the option to do something that they'd never want to do even if given the option is not appealing nor is it worth being at a job you don't like for longer than you need to be.

Well said Undercover, especially your first line.  I tried plenty of fancy stuff when I was younger and stupider but then realized I just like to play hockey and drink beer (and hike, play guitar, read and help my family).  That's what I like and thus the appeal of FIRE at a level that supports those pursuits.

[neo von retorch]

I'm not sure I understand the options you are presenting with us. Are you saying that if we work an extra 30 years, we'll have $400k/year in passive income, which will open up a world of spending possibilities which we will have in our 70s?

Right now, our real world options are something like this:

option 1
Live smart.
Retire 10-30+ years early
Enjoy our lifestyle and freedom for decades!

option 2
Live recklessly
Retire at age 67
Enjoy our golden years in a retirement home

Of course, we all have option 3
Live smart.
Work longer than we really need to to build up extra money.
Use that money recklessly!

But once you've spent TIME on extra money, there's no getting that time back. So it's a gamble of spending time working rather than doing things you know you enjoy doing!! just so you can spend to attempt to enjoy something new.

[Singuy]

I'm not sure I understand the options you are presenting with us. Are you saying that if we work an extra 30 years, we'll have $400k/year in passive income, which will open up a world of spending possibilities which we will have in our 70s?

Right now, our real world options are something like this:

option 1
Live smart.
Retire 10-30+ years early
Enjoy our lifestyle and freedom for decades!

option 2
Live recklessly
Retire at age 67
Enjoy our golden years in a retirement home

Of course, we all have option 3 - live smart. Work longer than we really need to to build up extra money. Use that money recklessly! But once you've spent TIME on extra money, there's no getting it back. So it's a gamble.

No you don't work an extra 30 years. You work an extra 5-10 tops..400k is just a number I made up.

The first 500k is probably the hardest and took you the longest to accumulate..but with a 8% return..your wealth building just becomes easier and easier. Those additional 5 -10 years of working can get you to hit 1.5-2 million easy..vs the first 5-10 years working. So you can either have a passive income of 40k or 160k..you quad your passive income but only double your work years.

[undercover]

I feel a LOT more options open up to you. Now you can be a better philanthropist..or can start a business you always wanted and could care less about it going under..etc etc.

Having more options is not necessarily better. In fact, it's a proven psychological fact that more options simply causes more stress and anxiety.

The paradox of choice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6XEQIsCoM

So what if we take the "over spending" part out of it..

Hell, let's take "spending" out of it all together. If someone were to come up to me and offer me $50k for free - would I accept it? Duh. If someone were to give me two first class international flight tickets as well as a paid hotel voucher for a week to the destination of my choice, would I take it? Sure. But, alas, we don't live in a world were things of value are given to us for free. The point is that I wouldn't trade my time for any of those things. That's what matters. If you would, then that's fine. Again, this isn't a contest.

But again - to answer the question yet again: why do people choose to FIRE so early? Because they value time more than anything else (and the lifestyle that they currently live of course) and would rather spend it doing what they want rather than being employed. It's not realistic to assume that these people are idiots and have no idea that there are $200k cars out there or hotels that cost $2k a night or that they have no idea how these things would affect their happiness.

[tonysemail]

hedonistic adaptation is my answer. 
What's next after the $1000 dinner?  It's merely a one-time-use pill of joy. 
And then it wears off.  And your life will remain just as it was before.
whether you find life meaningful or empty ... that won't change by spending more.
I say this because I've watched family members buy very expensive things.
I don't perceive any special happiness in their lives that I lack in mine.

I find this forum has a diverse range of incomes and expenses.
I disagree with your premise that everyone here lives on 20k.
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/poll-how-much-per-year-in-retirement/
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-your-net-worth-(2016-edition)/

[Singuy]

hedonistic adaptation is my answer. 
What's next after the $1000 dinner?  It's merely a one-time-use pill of joy. 
And then it wears off.  And your life will remain just as it was before.
whether you find life meaningful or empty ... that won't change by spending more.
I say this because I've watched family members buy very expensive things.
I don't perceive any special happiness in their lives that I lack in mine.

What I've found about this forum is that it's incredibly diverse.
I disagree with your premise that everyone here lives on 20k.
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/poll-how-much-per-year-in-retirement/
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-your-net-worth-(2016-edition)/

That 1x dinner is an experience, just like traveling. Not saying everyone here lives on a 20k/year budget..but I am seeing the MMM way to be more of a religion than a technique. "Break free from materialistic things, you'll be happier with less".  That's fine and all but it's a matter of opinion of how one can live. I'm in the camp of "you want to be lavish or spend on things that are expensive?..go for it..as long as you pay with cash and it's a small amount of your net worth". After reading the mustachian hall of shame..it's becoming more apparent that even spending lavishly on something you can afford 1000x still seems stupid to a lot of you guys.

[Justin1911]

For me its definitely about quitting the rat race as soon as possible. I can't think of a single purchase or possession I want more than that feeling of never needing to work again. I seriously can't wait. That desire is what motivates me to save big and avoid spending money on stuff I know I don't care about as much.

It's definitely a personal preference though. I for one don't have any desire for a nice car. I actually hate driving. I also really love the idea of being that incognito rich guy who lives on a small farm, drives an old pickup, and has been wearing the same old wardrobe for several years. My great grandfather who passed away at age 96 was one of the most spiritually healthy, wise and content men I've ever known. He lived on the same Kansas farm his entire life, living simply. His estate at the time of his death was revealed to be north of 5MM. That's who I want to be.

[Zikoris]

I can make a pretty good guess as to how I'd feel in a fancy, expensive hotel, as well - mega ripped off. I would so rather rent a funky AirBnB in a cool part of town, cook with some interesting fresh local ingredients, and really immerse myself in the local culture. The fancy hotel would not only add nothing to my trip, it would actively detract from it. Same for the vast majority of luxury bs.

[wenchsenior]

I think the OP is just overthinking this. The fact is that people derive joy and satisfaction in different ways. Most people on the board are looking to optimize their life joy, that's all. How it's done, and what $ amount is required to do it, is different for everyone.

For me, all things being equal, I just don't derive much joy from fancy cars, eating out at expensive places, buying clothes/jewelry, etc., so I would never bother spending much money on them.

I derive moderate to much joy from travel, BUT there are some significant downsides to travel, so I spend some money there, but anticipate spending less as I age.

I derive a MASSIVE amount of joy from gardening, reading, being alone in beautiful outdoor locations, so I focus spending there. Fortunately for me, gardening and reading are fairly inexpensive. Unfortunately, the situations and locations I would REALLY like to live in, are not cheap, and come with problematic tradeoffs. So that is an area where I optimize as well as is practical, but not nearly to the extent I wish I could.

This just isn't that complicated. Figure out where your pleasure bang-for-buck lies, and try to optimize it as well as you can. It's not likely to be 'perfect' and most here aren't aiming for that.

[Singuy]

So this topic I started was the result of this.

I don't know if I agree to the early retirement thing with so little NW from the author of this board. If you find that you can cover your yearly expenses and have a little left over for your luxury needs per year without needing to work..that's great. I'm just not sure how FI I find this to be. You are working with such a narrow margin between luxury spending and necessary spending. I just rather have a bigger buffer so then I wouldn't have to count my beans all the time trying to make my early retirement ends meet. The more buffer I have, the more independent I'll feel. I don't necessarily have to blow all my passive income, but I also know I have access to 95% of the things available on Earth. I guess I'm just saying..I rather not compromise in retirement since compromising often is not a very independent feeling.

[Cassie]

WE are semi-retired and older then most on this forum and were frugal when young, raising kids, etc. So now is our time to enjoy.  WE spend between 60-70k/year.  Still would I pay 1k for a meal? No!   We take 1 or 2 nice vacations per year. We have been on a few cruises that we really enjoy and have met people that go for months at a time. It is a really special experience to be on a cruise but if I did it every other month it would not be.  If you do something constantly it lacks the ability to be special.  That is probably why many famous, rich people end up with destructive lives because they confused material things with joy and happiness.

[SaskyStache]

hedonistic adaptation is my answer. 
What's next after the $1000 dinner?  It's merely a one-time-use pill of joy. 
And then it wears off.  And your life will remain just as it was before.
whether you find life meaningful or empty ... that won't change by spending more.
I say this because I've watched family members buy very expensive things.
I don't perceive any special happiness in their lives that I lack in mine.

What I've found about this forum is that it's incredibly diverse.
I disagree with your premise that everyone here lives on 20k.
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/poll-how-much-per-year-in-retirement/
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-your-net-worth-(2016-edition)/

That 1x dinner is an experience, just like traveling. Not saying everyone here lives on a 20k/year budget..but I am seeing the MMM way to be more of a religion than a technique. "Break free from materialistic things, you'll be happier with less".  That's fine and all but it's a matter of opinion of how one can live. I'm in the camp of "you want to be lavish or spend on things that are expensive?..go for it..as long as you pay with cash and it's a small amount of your net worth". After reading the mustachian hall of shame..it's becoming more apparent that even spending lavishly on something you can afford 1000x still seems stupid to a lot of you guys.

I think the disconnect might be here. It's not about being able to afford something; it's about analyzing the value "to you" (subjective) of each purchase you make vs the cost it has (not just in $$ but in the time/stress... the $$ represent). If the value of the purchase to you is greater than the cost it has on your life then it makes sense to buy it, but what a lot of people are finding is that when they crunch the numbers they realize they end up valuing the time and freedom more than the value certain purchases bring to them.

[undercover]

So this topic I started was the result of this.

I don't know if I agree to the early retirement thing with so little NW from the author of this board. If you find that you can cover your yearly expenses and have a little left over for your luxury needs per year without needing to work..that's great. I'm just not sure how FI I find this to be. You are working with such a narrow margin between luxury spending and necessary spending. I just rather have a bigger buffer so then I wouldn't have to count my beans all the time trying to make my early retirement ends meet. The more buffer I have, the more independent I'll feel. I don't necessarily have to blow all my passive income, but I also know I have access to 95% of the things available on Earth. I guess I'm just saying..I rather not compromise in retirement since compromising often is not a very independent feeling.

Sorry, but there's nothing in life without compromise. Everything has an opportunity cost.

But you're still comparing apples to oranges. If you have enough to meet your lifestyle demands and would rather not be working than working...that's completely different than feeling deprived everyday.

I'm reading that your risk tolerance is just lower...maybe you're shooting for a 2% SWR rather than 4%. That would mean you'd need $1M instead of $500k if your spending was $20k/yr. I don't think anyone here retires thinking that they'll be "counting beans". They "retire" (whether they plan on permanently not working or not) under the premise that their income will outlive them.

[moof]

A few years back I realized I was having a hard time answering "What do you want for your birthday/Christmas?".  Lately I have been asking for (and not getting, grrr) for a simple framed picture from my various relatives for christmas, and a homemade chocolate cake as a gift from my wife.  I get more joy from family pictures than from getting more crap I won't use.

My kid is 4, and it kills be every morning that I have to tell him I can't keep playing and have to go to work, or when I have to work late enough that I miss dinner/bedtime.  I find this is more painful now than when he was under 2.    Hence my recent journey looking for ways to spend more time with him, which brought me to MMM and similar haunts.  It kills me that I didn't embark on this journey earlier.  I have not been bad about savings by US standards, but I am only about halfway to where I would like to be (and only 1/3 the way if I can't bring my wife around).

The best days in my life mostly did not center on spending money.  Most of them are seeing the outdoors, watching the sun go by with my back against a rock, and doing fun stuff with my kid like camping, dragging him up the hill to the zoo in a bike trailer, etc.  So I have come around to realizing that I want less work, less money, and more time with my family.  I need only enough money to assure that money issues are a no more than a small stress in life.

My intent is to FIRE with about a 3% draw down rate so there is buffer in there in case some calamity happens, or if our lifestyle ends up expanding a bit.  Hopefully it will just mean that I leave this world unstressed by money at all and with a big chunk of money leftover for a good charity to absorb.

[tonysemail]

I'm in the camp of "you want to be lavish or spend on things that are expensive?..go for it..as long as you pay with cash and it's a small amount of your net worth". After reading the mustachian hall of shame..it's becoming more apparent that even spending lavishly on something you can afford 1000x still seems stupid to a lot of you guys.

Yes and I think mindful spending is the whole point of the religion.
there's nothing fundamentally wrong with a goal of 5 mil, OMY, 3% SWR, etc.
you absolutely should work longer if that is the only thing that helps you sleep soundly at night.
But I think your perspective might shift as the pernicious optimism of this site infects you.

FWIW in your example of charity... yes, some folks here intend to work longer for philanthropic reasons.
It's not the norm, but you wouldn't be alone if you chose that path either.

[Psychstache]

I'm not sure I understand the options you are presenting with us. Are you saying that if we work an extra 30 years, we'll have $400k/year in passive income, which will open up a world of spending possibilities which we will have in our 70s?

Right now, our real world options are something like this:

option 1
Live smart.
Retire 10-30+ years early
Enjoy our lifestyle and freedom for decades!

option 2
Live recklessly
Retire at age 67
Enjoy our golden years in a retirement home

Of course, we all have option 3 - live smart. Work longer than we really need to to build up extra money. Use that money recklessly! But once you've spent TIME on extra money, there's no getting it back. So it's a gamble.

No you don't work an extra 30 years. You work an extra 5-10 tops..400k is just a number I made up.

The first 500k is probably the hardest and took you the longest to accumulate..but with a 8% return..your wealth building just becomes easier and easier. Those additional 5 -10 years of working can get you to hit 1.5-2 million easy..vs the first 5-10 years working. So you can either have a passive income of 40k or 160k..you quad your passive income but only double your work years.

But then why stop at 1-2 million. Compounding is just gonna get easier. Another 5-10 of working and you can have 5-8 million. Another 5-10 years of working and more compounding and now you can have 25 million. Another 5-10 years of working and compounding and....etc.etc.

Everyone has to decide their own enough. Mine isn't 20k/yr because I'm not happy spending that little, but it sure as hell at 400k/yr either. After I got my financial house in order, I stopped budgeting and just spent money on the things I value. That has lead me to my natural happiness budget and that is my target.

P.S. WTF is the deal with fancy cars as an example of uber-rich luxury. Driving is the worst. If I every magically became mega wealthy, I'm hiring a driver and never getting behind a wheel again.

[Singuy]

Still seems to have a little disconnect in what I am saying.

If I think I will spend the same amount of money in my retirement life vs my current life is nonsense. In order to reach FIRE asap, I am definitely putting off certain luxuries(like traveling for example) so my money can compound more. The amount of money I think I'll need in retirement is a big fat shrug..simply because I have no idea what I'll enjoy later in life..and what I will enjoy when actually doing those things. That's why I don't want a bunch of limited options because to sustain my current lifestyle is easy..but also extremely boring.

So how did you guys decide on what the draw rate should be?  How did you know your lifestyle was going to remain the same with all the extra free time? 

[englishteacheralex]

My husband and I plan on working until we physically can't anymore because we love our jobs and derive a great deal of pleasure and meaning from them. I am a teacher and he is a social worker, for context.

We are also deeply religious and take joy in giving away around 20% of our income every year. And we don't worry about the implications of this for how soon we can retire. Philosophically, we feel that no matter how much or how little money one has, one should make conscious choices as much as possible not to be ruled by the need for money. In our context, this means living well within our means so that if one or both of us felt compelled to quit our jobs for some reason, it would not mean financial destitution or our placing an undue burden on friends and family.

Enjoying a nice trip or a nice restaurant meal is pleasurable for us, and we do these things sometimes as our budget allows. Of course, we could do these things quite a bit more, and live in a much nicer house, if we stopped our charitable donations. As far as our worldview is concerned, there is nothing wrong with making a space financially for luxury sometimes. But meaning and purpose are not found in such things. Most people, regardless of worldview/religious affiliation, who have lived a bit would agree--hedonic adaptation is a psychological principle that happens to be backed up quite a bit in Scripture--read Ecclesiastes! :)

[Psychstache]

Still seems to have a little disconnect in what I am saying.

If I think I will spend the same amount of money in my retirement life vs my current life is nonsense. In order to reach FIRE asap, I am definitely putting off certain luxuries(like traveling for example) so my money can compound more. The amount of money I think I'll need in retirement is a big fat shrug..simply because I have no idea what I'll enjoy later in life..and what I will enjoy when actually doing those things. That's why I don't want a bunch of limited options because to sustain my current lifestyle is easy..but also extremely boring.

So how did you guys decide on what the draw rate should be?  How did you know your lifestyle was going to remain the same with all the extra free time?

To quote ARebelSpy:  /shrug

I'm not delaying happiness to save more money. Maybe you should work on fixing the fact that you find your life boring first, that should help you answer post work life lifestyle questions.

[Singuy]

Still seems to have a little disconnect in what I am saying.

If I think I will spend the same amount of money in my retirement life vs my current life is nonsense. In order to reach FIRE asap, I am definitely putting off certain luxuries(like traveling for example) so my money can compound more. The amount of money I think I'll need in retirement is a big fat shrug..simply because I have no idea what I'll enjoy later in life..and what I will enjoy when actually doing those things. That's why I don't want a bunch of limited options because to sustain my current lifestyle is easy..but also extremely boring.

So how did you guys decide on what the draw rate should be?  How did you know your lifestyle was going to remain the same with all the extra free time?

To quote ARebelSpy:  /shrug

I'm not delaying happiness to save more money. Maybe you should work on fixing the fact that you find your life boring first, that should help you answer post work life lifestyle questions.

Who is delaying happiness?  I am delaying "new experiences" that are costly. I have no idea if these experiences will make me happy or not.

[Mr. Green]

I think the biggest answer for most folks seeking ER is time. Most people today have very little of it free between jobs, kids, etc. Most businesses demand even more time of the owner than a job would. I think that concept is hard for most people to understand because they're never experienced it so they don't know how awesome it really is. I want my wife to be able to stay home with our kids if she wants to. I want to be able to go to stores at off-peak hours when everything is easier. Time also happens to be the only thing you can't get more of. You can always make more money, but you only get less time as the minutes wear on.

Not knowing what day it is, and not caring, is one of the most freeing feelings I know of. Maybe it's not for everyone, but it's definitely for me.

[Singuy]

I'm not sure I understand the options you are presenting with us. Are you saying that if we work an extra 30 years, we'll have $400k/year in passive income, which will open up a world of spending possibilities which we will have in our 70s?

Right now, our real world options are something like this:

option 1
Live smart.
Retire 10-30+ years early
Enjoy our lifestyle and freedom for decades!

option 2
Live recklessly
Retire at age 67
Enjoy our golden years in a retirement home

Of course, we all have option 3 - live smart. Work longer than we really need to to build up extra money. Use that money recklessly! But once you've spent TIME on extra money, there's no getting it back. So it's a gamble.

No you don't work an extra 30 years. You work an extra 5-10 tops..400k is just a number I made up.

The first 500k is probably the hardest and took you the longest to accumulate..but with a 8% return..your wealth building just becomes easier and easier. Those additional 5 -10 years of working can get you to hit 1.5-2 million easy..vs the first 5-10 years working. So you can either have a passive income of 40k or 160k..you quad your passive income but only double your work years.

But then why stop at 1-2 million. Compounding is just gonna get easier. Another 5-10 of working and you can have 5-8 million. Another 5-10 years of working and more compounding and now you can have 25 million. Another 5-10 years of working and compounding and....etc.etc.

Everyone has to decide their own enough. Mine isn't 20k/yr because I'm not happy spending that little, but it sure as hell at 400k/yr either. After I got my financial house in order, I stopped budgeting and just spent money on the things I value. That has lead me to my natural happiness budget and that is my target.

P.S. WTF is the deal with fancy cars as an example of uber-rich luxury. Driving is the worst. If I every magically became mega wealthy, I'm hiring a driver and never getting behind a wheel again.

Working is no longer required once you have a certain amount of money. Since I don't need an entourage, or put anyone on any of my payroll, having a passive income such as 400k/year will get me to hit 10 million just sitting at home in a few years.

[deborah]

Recently, while traveling, I was looking at where to stay next. One place was near where the ferry I was on stopped, had laundry facilities, was close to everything I wanted to see, and was half the price of another place (which had none of these). As I was sick, I accidentally booked the wrong place, so I stayed at this fancy-pants place which was really a lot worse (as far as I was concerned) than the place I meant to stay at. Sure, it probably had nicer furniture. It had good views (but it was very noisy), probably better than the other place. Its restaurant definitely served worse (but more expensive) food (I was recommended the other restaurant, so I went to both).

The thing is to learn what makes you happy, and what gives you the best outcome. I find it is ALWAYS not the most expensive thing available. Frugality is a method of assessing your actual requirements (not those of people surrounding you) and to live life accordingly.

Having the occasional luxury class experience or item can be part of your retirement, if you want it, but I find that I only want those sorts of things occasionally because I have a better experience without being in luxury class. For instance, I went down the inner passage in the Alaskan Marine Ferry. This enabled me to stop at a lot of places for a couple of days and gave me the ability to join small boat tours to places that the luxury cruise ships simply can't go. I'm sure I had a much better experience as a result.

[undercover]

Still seems to have a little disconnect in what I am saying.

If I think I will spend the same amount of money in my retirement life vs my current life is nonsense. In order to reach FIRE asap, I am definitely putting off certain luxuries(like traveling for example) so my money can compound more. The amount of money I think I'll need in retirement is a big fat shrug..simply because I have no idea what I'll enjoy later in life..and what I will enjoy when actually doing those things. That's why I don't want a bunch of limited options because to sustain my current lifestyle is easy..but also extremely boring.

So how did you guys decide on what the draw rate should be?  How did you know your lifestyle was going to remain the same with all the extra free time?

To quote ARebelSpy:  /shrug

I'm not delaying happiness to save more money. Maybe you should work on fixing the fact that you find your life boring first, that should help you answer post work life lifestyle questions.

Who is delaying happiness?  I am delaying "new experiences" that are costly. I have no idea if these experiences will make me happy or not.

Really? No idea? Don't act so coy.

As I alluded to earlier, options for any particular product or service lie on a spectrum. Let's pretend that spectrum is from 1 to 10. Let's say that pretty much anyone can afford level 1 and level 4. If you try level 4 and you don't think it's any better than level 1, why would level 10 be any better than to you than level 4? It wouldn't. You decide that trading your precious time to be able to afford anything over a certain level is just not worth it.

Conversely, let's say that you do enjoy level 4 but have no idea what level 10 would be like. Well from the law of diminishing returns, you know that it's highly unlikely that level 10 would over twice as good as level 4. In fact, you've seen people that took part in that level 10 service or owned that level 10 product and they still seemed to be miserable. Thus, why would you trade more time for that level 10 thing unless you would be spending your time working anyway?

Again, the key component here is how do you want to be spending your TIME? If it's working and it's not doing any of the things that you can already afford to do, then great, more power to you as I've said before. If you think trading time/freedom is worth being able to afford that level 10 product/service indefinitely, then go right ahead.

[Mr. Green]

I think the biggest answer for most folks seeking ER is time. Most people today have very little of it free between jobs, kids, etc. Most businesses demand even more time of the owner than a job would. I think that concept is hard for most people to understand because they're never experienced it so they don't know how awesome it really is. I want my wife to be able to stay home with our kids if she wants to. I want to be able to go to stores at off-peak hours when everything is easier. Time also happens to be the only thing you can't get more of. You can always make more money, but you only get less time as the minutes wear on.

Not knowing what day it is, and not caring, is one of the most freeing feelings I know of. Maybe it's not for everyone, but it's definitely for me.

To take my comments one step further, I think you'll find it to be a universal truth that time is the most expensive thing you can buy. The opportunity cost is enormous. Some one either decides he can live with less, or works longer to live with more. It's a sliding scale for every person. For some some folks, like the extreme early retirement crowd, they're willing to live on very little money therefore they're able to buy their freedom more quickly. Others want luxury and are willing to work to have it. It's all a personal decision.

[Singuy]

Still seems to have a little disconnect in what I am saying.

If I think I will spend the same amount of money in my retirement life vs my current life is nonsense. In order to reach FIRE asap, I am definitely putting off certain luxuries(like traveling for example) so my money can compound more. The amount of money I think I'll need in retirement is a big fat shrug..simply because I have no idea what I'll enjoy later in life..and what I will enjoy when actually doing those things. That's why I don't want a bunch of limited options because to sustain my current lifestyle is easy..but also extremely boring.

So how did you guys decide on what the draw rate should be?  How did you know your lifestyle was going to remain the same with all the extra free time?

To quote ARebelSpy:  /shrug

I'm not delaying happiness to save more money. Maybe you should work on fixing the fact that you find your life boring first, that should help you answer post work life lifestyle questions.

Who is delaying happiness?  I am delaying "new experiences" that are costly. I have no idea if these experiences will make me happy or not.

Really? No idea? Don't act so coy.

As I alluded to earlier, options for any particular product or service lie on a spectrum. Let's pretend that spectrum is from 1 to 10. Let's say that pretty much anyone can afford level 1 and level 4. If you try level 4 and you don't think it's any better than level 1, why would level 10 be any better than to you than level 4? It wouldn't. You decide that trading your precious time to be able to afford anything over a certain level is just not worth it.

Conversely, let's say that you do enjoy level 4 but have no idea what level 10 would be like. Well from the law of diminishing returns, you know that it's highly unlikely that level 10 would over twice as good as level 4. In fact, you've seen people that took part in that level 10 service or owned that level 10 product and they still seemed to be miserable. Thus, why would you trade more time for that level 10 thing unless you would be spending your time working anyway?

Again, the key component here is how do you want to be spending your TIME? If it's working and it's not doing any of the things that you can already afford to do, then great, more power to you as I've said before. If you think trading time/freedom is worth being able to afford that level 10 product/service indefinitely, then go right ahead.

I am just having a hard time valuing "time" if it's not spent wisely due to limited funds.  There are only so much tv you can watch, so much walks you can take, and so many free events you can join before it becomes monotonous and money will be required to gain newer experiences. And since I am frugal and trying to reach FI asap, I have done all the free stuff..I live and breath the level 1s and level 2s. I don't want to live my life without experiencing level 8 or level 10s at least once just to have it in my memory bank.

[Spork]

I am just having a hard time valuing "time" if it's not spent wisely due to limited funds.  There are only so much tv you can watch, so much walks you can take, and so many free events you can join before it becomes monotonous and money will be required to gain newer experiences. And since I am frugal and trying to reach FI asap, I have done all the free stuff..I live and breath the level 1s and level 2s. I don't want to live my life without experiencing level 8 or level 10s at least once just to have it in my memory bank.

So... Time is one thing I do not have a hard time valuing.  Maybe it's because I am crossing into Old Fart territory.  I have a pretty deep sense of my mortality.  I am acutely aware of how valuable my time is to me.

All said... it is entirely possible that early retirement isn't for you.  That's okay.  My dad died at 86.  He worked until he was 86.  That's what he enjoyed.  But very few people on their death bed exclaim "I sure wish I had worked more."  My dad was probably a rare exception.  Maybe you are, too.

[Tyson]

The whole idea of luxury is a sucker's game.

[undercover]

Still seems to have a little disconnect in what I am saying.

If I think I will spend the same amount of money in my retirement life vs my current life is nonsense. In order to reach FIRE asap, I am definitely putting off certain luxuries(like traveling for example) so my money can compound more. The amount of money I think I'll need in retirement is a big fat shrug..simply because I have no idea what I'll enjoy later in life..and what I will enjoy when actually doing those things. That's why I don't want a bunch of limited options because to sustain my current lifestyle is easy..but also extremely boring.

So how did you guys decide on what the draw rate should be?  How did you know your lifestyle was going to remain the same with all the extra free time?

To quote ARebelSpy:  /shrug

I'm not delaying happiness to save more money. Maybe you should work on fixing the fact that you find your life boring first, that should help you answer post work life lifestyle questions.

Who is delaying happiness?  I am delaying "new experiences" that are costly. I have no idea if these experiences will make me happy or not.

Really? No idea? Don't act so coy.

As I alluded to earlier, options for any particular product or service lie on a spectrum. Let's pretend that spectrum is from 1 to 10. Let's say that pretty much anyone can afford level 1 and level 4. If you try level 4 and you don't think it's any better than level 1, why would level 10 be any better than to you than level 4? It wouldn't. You decide that trading your precious time to be able to afford anything over a certain level is just not worth it.

Conversely, let's say that you do enjoy level 4 but have no idea what level 10 would be like. Well from the law of diminishing returns, you know that it's highly unlikely that level 10 would over twice as good as level 4. In fact, you've seen people that took part in that level 10 service or owned that level 10 product and they still seemed to be miserable. Thus, why would you trade more time for that level 10 thing unless you would be spending your time working anyway?

Again, the key component here is how do you want to be spending your TIME? If it's working and it's not doing any of the things that you can already afford to do, then great, more power to you as I've said before. If you think trading time/freedom is worth being able to afford that level 10 product/service indefinitely, then go right ahead.

I am just having a hard time valuing "time" if it's not spent wisely due to limited funds.  There are only so much tv you can watch, so much walks you can take, and so many free events you can join before it becomes monotonous and money will be required to gain newer experiences. And since I am frugal and trying to reach FI asap, I have done all the free stuff..I live and breath the level 1s and level 2s. I don't want to live my life without experiencing level 8 or level 10s at least once just to have it in my memory bank.

I'm starting to feel trolled. In your first post, you said you could make a few small adjustments, pay for your basic needs at a 4% SWR, and still have $100k in passive income to live off of. An extra $100k/yr is definitely going to afford some level 5-10 things.

I mean, I find it hard to believe that you can't come to some level of conclusion as to whether or not a certain lifestyle suits you relative to the value of your time. I think most people just "know" this - or at least, they have a very good idea. You don't have to know everything or find out everything or try everything. In fact, it's better if you don't.

The best thing for you to do since you don't seem to be fully grasping the value of your time is to take some time off work and see how much you enjoy it versus not working. If you feel deprived and are unable to do things you enjoy and decide that working is more enjoyable then I guess you need to work longer.

[Singuy]

I am just having a hard time valuing "time" if it's not spent wisely due to limited funds.  There are only so much tv you can watch, so much walks you can take, and so many free events you can join before it becomes monotonous and money will be required to gain newer experiences. And since I am frugal and trying to reach FI asap, I have done all the free stuff..I live and breath the level 1s and level 2s. I don't want to live my life without experiencing level 8 or level 10s at least once just to have it in my memory bank.

So... Time is one thing I do not have a hard time valuing.  Maybe it's because I am crossing into Old Fart territory.  I have a pretty deep sense of my mortality.  I am acutely aware of how valuable my time is to me.

All said... it is entirely possible that early retirement isn't for you.  That's okay.  My dad died at 86.  He worked until he was 86.  That's what he enjoyed.  But very few people on their death bed exclaim "I sure wish I had worked more."  My dad was probably a rare exception.  Maybe you are, too.

I am all for early retirement. My wife and I are aiming for 45 yo. I am just wondering what are the benefits of retiring as early as MMM. My children will be in school in combination of my funds being limited(since I need to make it last 40+ years), I can't see myself doing anything else but to watch a lot of tv at home..not to mention I'll never be able to experience anything beyond level 4 luxury for the rest of my life (this is if I have MMM money and passive income).

[Murse]

The point for me is so that I can begin making decisions without having to consider money. I have always been the type to delay pleasure for more gain. Even as a teenager playing video games I would often spend half of the game putting myself into a position where I didn't have to worry about currency for the rest of the game, instead of enjoying the game.
 Once I found MMM (great timing while in school) I knew I had found my real life measuring stick. Prior to MMM I was exploring ways to maximize my income over my lifetime. MMM will set me free :)

What I think will likely happen is I will hit my bare bones number then work part time until my stache grows to wherever I decide I want it, but we will see.

[Zikoris]

I am just having a hard time valuing "time" if it's not spent wisely due to limited funds.  There are only so much tv you can watch, so much walks you can take, and so many free events you can join before it becomes monotonous and money will be required to gain newer experiences. And since I am frugal and trying to reach FI asap, I have done all the free stuff..I live and breath the level 1s and level 2s. I don't want to live my life without experiencing level 8 or level 10s at least once just to have it in my memory bank.

So... Time is one thing I do not have a hard time valuing.  Maybe it's because I am crossing into Old Fart territory.  I have a pretty deep sense of my mortality.  I am acutely aware of how valuable my time is to me.

All said... it is entirely possible that early retirement isn't for you.  That's okay.  My dad died at 86.  He worked until he was 86.  That's what he enjoyed.  But very few people on their death bed exclaim "I sure wish I had worked more."  My dad was probably a rare exception.  Maybe you are, too.

I am all for early retirement. My wife and I are aiming for 45 yo. I am just wondering what are the benefits of retiring as early as MMM. My children will be in school in combination of my funds being limited(since I need to make it last 40+ years), I can't see myself doing anything else but to watch a lot of tv at home..not to mention I'll never be able to experience anything beyond level 4 luxury for the rest of my life (this is if I have MMM money and passive income).

Maybe you should take up some hobbies? Getting rid of the television entirely should help a lot with that, and will definitely prevent you from sitting at home watching ty. I'm honestly not even sure why you're wanting early retirement, given your situation - I'm no fan of working, but I would rather work than live the lifestyle you describe.

[Singuy]

What I really want to do is to travel. Not your typical 2 weeks type traveling, but I want to go to a place and live there for a month..really soak up in the culture and experience their lives. This of course takes a lot of cash and time. At our age, we can't just ditch our kids and go on a 6 months vacation. So I ask you guys out there..what is there to do when you retire under 40 and you have kids?

[alewpanda]

What I really want to do is to travel. Not your typical 2 weeks type traveling, but I want to go to a place and live there for a month..really soak up in the culture and experience their lives. This of course takes a lot of cash and time. At our age, we can't just ditch our kids and go on a 6 months vacation. So I ask you guys out there..what is there to do when you retire under 40 and you have kids?

Home school the kids, travel as a family to a place for a month or more, live like a local (aka...pretty cheaply, not lavish hotels), and you've got it made.  If I had 100k a year in passive income, you better believe that that is what I would be doing TOMORROW.

[oldtoyota]

If you're concerned about losing out on various future options that you're not even sure if you want or not, I think you should spend some time figuring out what you actually want out of life, and making a plan based on the reality of that.

Agreed. I'd be devastated if I worked to have $5M so I could eat $1K meals that I didn't enjoy.

[oldtoyota]

What I really want to do is to travel. Not your typical 2 weeks type traveling, but I want to go to a place and live there for a month..really soak up in the culture and experience their lives. This of course takes a lot of cash and time. At our age, we can't just ditch our kids and go on a 6 months vacation. So I ask you guys out there..what is there to do when you retire under 40 and you have kids?

If you truly want to travel and are not, I invite you to explore the mindset that is holding you back. You're the one writing the story that says, "I can't."

How could you travel with kids? What do you want to do when you retire under 40 with kids? What steps could you take today so that you COULD spend a month somewhere? How could you make it so it doesn't take a lot of cash? Others do this. In Uruguay, you can live an entire year pretty under for under $10K.

It sounds to me like you have concerns your family life is not "enough" and so you think it needs to be filled with things.