Author Topic: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?  (Read 92080 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #300 on: January 26, 2016, 06:12:19 AM »
FFS, it DOES NOT MATTER that the orders come from civilians. It is the individual soldier who is tasked with carrying them out. Do you want to take the chance that you are that individual soldier who is ordered to torture someone or fire on an unarmed civilian? When that order will be given with a lot of communal pressure to obey and probably in a very stressful situation? Do you want to have to make that kind of split-second moral choice?
Ok, once again, torture isn't happening anymore.  We could have a separate argument about what constitutes torture, but it isn't happening and when it was it wasn't done by the military predominantly.

As to the drone question, while I think the expanding scope is problematic, I have no problem with taking out terrorists.  As I said earlier, a great deal of time and effort is made to minimize civilian casualties. 

I find it amazing that civilian leadership gets a free pass as we continue to insult the military members, the vast majority of whom serve with honor to protect our way of life.

Torture is still happening at Guantanamo Bay.  Because there is little hope of the inmates ever seeing a day in court or being released, a lot of them started hunger strikes.  The military has been strapping them down to chairs and ramming tubes up their noses to force feed them.  The military absolutely knows that what they're doing is wrong too . . . since they have deemed it OK to refuse orders regarding this treatment.  (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/guantanamo/article20817624.html)

Ah.  It's OK because you're 'taking out terrorists'.  Granted, you're taking out 9 innocent civilians for each terrorist (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/15/90-of-people-killed-by-us-drone-strikes-in-afghani/) . . . but whatever.  You can tell the mothers of the dead children that you tried really hard.  They can't be too upset about the matter, it's not like the dead are American!  Then of course, we get into the whole matter of executing people without a trial, without public evidence, without checks and balances.  Certainly nothing can be wrong with this practice.

Civilian leadership absolutely should not get a free pass.  The people responsible for opening Guantanamo Bay should be tried as war criminals.  There should also be charges for any soldier involved in the detention of the many innocent people there as well.  They are, after all, choosing to follow illegal orders.


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I was looking for REAL evidence. Documents from the Department of Defense, Congress, GAO, the Supreme Court, the President. You can post all your 2nd-hand articles that you want, I don't have time to sift through them, weed out bias, examine the evidence presented. If you suggest and defend systemic problems, SHOW me these institutional policies. None of this is systemic.

Mmm.  Arguing in bad faith.  I'm too lazy to learn on my own, and I've already made up my mind about the way things are.  Bring me more evidence that I might reject it out of hand as not being REAL evidence, (admittedly without bothering to first read it).

Travis

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #301 on: January 26, 2016, 07:43:45 AM »

Drone strikes allow us to kill terrorists with a great deal of precision and a lot of time and effort goes in to ensuring as few civilian casualties as possible.  Literally hundreds of hours are spent observing a potential target and figuring out the pattern of life information like when women and children are in his vicinity to understand the best time to strike to minimize casualties.  I've worked in these programs from an oversight perspective and the number of hours spent observing and collecting this information before a strike is mind-boggling.  The drone program has been expanded dramatically under President Obama.


"9 civilians killed for every terrorist in drone strikes."  Those numbers aren't fun to read.  Here are a few that could have been newspaper headlines:

"10 city blocks leveled to destroy one building." - WWII

"One square kilometer of forest burned down to kill one enemy squad."  - Vietnam War

"One plane with one bomb destroys one building."  - Operation Iraqi Freedom

War isn't an exact science, and aerial bombing is not like removing a brain tumor, but we're trying.

GuitarStv

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #302 on: January 26, 2016, 08:18:20 AM »
Let's put this in some more relatable context.

Say that you live in a duplex.  In the other side of the duplex is a suspected murderer.  Do you think it would be right for the police to bomb the duplex, killing you, your wife, your children, your visiting grandmother, and the wife and children of the suspected murder?  If this scenario isn't OK in your neighborhood, why is it OK in a neighborhood in a foreign country?

No warning, no trial, no evidence presented, no judgement by peers, large numbers of civilian casualties.  How would it make your close friends feel towards the police?  In what way is this different than a terrorist bombing a building full of civilians?

shelivesthedream

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #303 on: January 26, 2016, 08:23:16 AM »
Radicaledward: Dude, re-read the post. I'm agreeing with you.

Davisgang90: OK, let's leave torture out of it. I only mentioned it as an example because it's been brought up so many times already in this thread. My point still stands that you might be asked to do something you find morally wrong or even questionable, like the shooting the motorbike gang example upthread. Or shooting at an enemy soldier who is using a child as a shield. Or bombing a large area to kill one person. I'm not interested in the specific example: pick your own case of something that is morally questionable. Do you want to be the one to make that choice? Or, possibly even worse, if you are an officer and receive an order from higher up to lead your soldiers to do something that is morally questionable? So that you have to make the choice not only for yourself but for them too. When you're dealing with the potential to take lives, that's a hell of a responsibility. Do you want to put your conscience on the line? I'm not saying it will definitely happen but it's like winning the lottery: your numbers only have to come up once.

I'll admit to being a bit of a weedy, cowardly semi-pacifist-who-has-never-been-seriously-tested. However, with that in mind I don't see how any of what I have said in this thread denigrates soldiers OR gives civilian leaders a free ride. I would happily see Blair into jail. If you re-read my post, you will see that I am saying that soldiers have to make tremendously difficult choices in tremendously difficult circumstances. I am implicitly praising them for doing something that I would not want to do because it's too much of a responsibility for me to be comfortable with.

(Also, as an aside which I know people may take unnecessary offence at but which I think has to be mentioned, all y'all in America do glorify your military much more than in other countries. I think this leads to polarisation in opinions on the military more so than in more moderate countries like the UK. As we don't think that veterans can do no wrong, neither do we think that they are evil bastards. We recognise them as humans, not as "other" heroes.)

Sailor Sam

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #304 on: January 26, 2016, 08:57:06 AM »
FFS, it DOES NOT MATTER that the orders come from civilians. It is the individual soldier who is tasked with carrying them out. Do you want to take the chance that you are that individual soldier who is ordered to torture someone or fire on an unarmed civilian? When that order will be given with a lot of communal pressure to obey and probably in a very stressful situation? Do you want to have to make that kind of split-second moral choice?

I don't fear having to make those kinds of decisions. Because I believe I have the training to respond correctly. And I believe I have enough strength of character to tread the line, and live with myself afterwards.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #305 on: January 26, 2016, 09:21:46 AM »
FFS, it DOES NOT MATTER that the orders come from civilians. It is the individual soldier who is tasked with carrying them out. Do you want to take the chance that you are that individual soldier who is ordered to torture someone or fire on an unarmed civilian? When that order will be given with a lot of communal pressure to obey and probably in a very stressful situation? Do you want to have to make that kind of split-second moral choice?

I don't fear having to make those kinds of decisions. Because I believe I have the training to respond correctly. And I believe I have enough strength of character to tread the line, and live with myself afterwards.

Then you are a better man than I, but please do have sympathy for those of us who would not want to be in that position, no matter what the financial benefits.

davisgang90

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #306 on: January 26, 2016, 09:26:14 AM »
Let's put this in some more relatable context.

Say that you live in a duplex.  In the other side of the duplex is a suspected murderer.  Do you think it would be right for the police to bomb the duplex, killing you, your wife, your children, your visiting grandmother, and the wife and children of the suspected murder?  If this scenario isn't OK in your neighborhood, why is it OK in a neighborhood in a foreign country?

No warning, no trial, no evidence presented, no judgement by peers, large numbers of civilian casualties.  How would it make your close friends feel towards the police?  In what way is this different than a terrorist bombing a building full of civilians?
No that would be wrong since the police don't have those kind of authorities.  It isn't even a fair comparison.  You don't have to like drone warfare, I'm not a huge fan myself, but how else do we fight terrorists?  Boots on the ground?  Ignore them until they attack us at home?  Honestly would like to know what you would recommend.

Veritasvosliberabit

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #307 on: January 26, 2016, 10:34:24 AM »
It's entirely possible to reduce the number of incidents that happen by including more moral and talented people in the military.

While it's an admirable goal, I'm honestly not as worried about it as I probably should be.  The military does the best that it can.  They're not perfect, and never will be.  I think you have to accept some degree if malfunction in any large organization, especially if the cost to fix it is more than the cost of the problem.

But I suspect folks like GuitarSV are less concerned about the bad apple problems that could theoretically be fixed by "including more moral and talented people in the military".  They seem more concerned about the structural, carefully orchestrated problems.  Not a crazy dude shooting up a mess hall or a soldier offing a bunch of civilians in a warzone, more like the instantaneous murder of an entire city by nuclear weapons.  That sort of crime was a carefully thought out and orchestrated act of evil, done with the best of intentions but still evil.  Women and children, noncombatants, hospitals and day care centers and nursing homes, all wiped out instantly in a giant mushroom cloud.  Then, as if that wasn't terrible enough, we did it all again three days later somewhere else.  I'm still not sure what the excuse is for dropping the second one, honestly.

Those sorts of decisions are not the kind of thing that one officer with a conscience can stop.  The entire US military carefully planned and plotted to make that happen, because they thought it was the most moral thing to do at the time.  Murdering civilians is bad, but America did it.  Torture is bad, but America did it.  Supporting pedophiles is bad, but America did it.  Overthrowing democracies to install dictators is bad, but America did it.  Suppressing sexual assault claims within the ranks is bad, but America did it.  Assassinating foreign leaders is bad, but America did it.  Violating due process is bad, but America did it.  Killing American citizens instead of arresting them is bad, but America did it.   These are all carefully deliberated policy positions of the US government, not random flukes that could be avoided if we only had better soldiers, and some people find them too problematic to rationalize volunteering for military service.  We're still a free country, and as long as we have an all-volunteer force they still get to make that decision.

Personally, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.  I don't think Dick Cheney was an evil man, for example, I think he was a tragically misguided man.  He tried to do good and failed, and we as a nation bear the scars of countless men like him and the bad decisions they have made.  I'd like to believe those scars are recognized exceptions, not our national ideals made manifest.

Yes, this is the point that I was trying to get across originally.

To reiterate (for the third or fourth time) I have no issue with most of the people in the military.  To repeat myself . . . you're not a bad person for joining up and wanting to help your country.  Those are good intentions.

I do have tremendous issue with some current and morally reprehensible military practices.  Especially as there appears to be no end to them because nobody is really admitting that they are wrong.  This is at least in part because calling attention to atrocities currently perpetrated by the US military immediately makes a lot of people react to you negatively.


In this thread:
- I've been called uninformed
- I've been told that I hate servicemen
- I've been told that my opinion doesn't matter because I'm not a member of military
- I've been told that most people in the military don't do immoral things on a day to day basis, so we just obviously ignore all the immoral stuff currently happening
- It's been insinuated that I'm hypocritical for pointing out the immoral things in the military, because there are other jobs where immoral things happen
- I've been told that my opinion is heavily influenced by television and movies, therefore my complaints aren't valid
- I've been told that I have a 'hard-on' for criticizing the US government.
- I've been told that my posts are direct attacks on the morals of US servicemen.


Something is badly broken.  There appears to be nobody trying to stop the bad things that the US military is currently doing (and the above baseless criticisms are a good indication why they remain so).  That means to me, that the problem will never be fixed.  There's a chance that any new recruit could be ordered to torture people in an illegal prison camp, to bomb foreign civilians via computer screen, or to help solidify a base of power for child molesters.  Even if the chance of getting that assignment is low, does that really sound like a group of people you want to encourage your kid to join up with?

We've tried to show you the other side, but your mental picture of the US military - to all the contrary evidence that has been presented - is still stuck on what you see in the mass media and viewed through your opinion-tinted glasses.  Of course we do "bad" things.  No military member will deny that.  What I think we do have a problem with is this:  that, in your eyes, we are damned either way.  You look at the end product of the decisions we make and call us bad because you don't see the alternatives we often face.  We are castigated for supporting unsavory characters around the world, but what decision would you make, GuitarStv, if the alternative to supporting child molesters was having even more people die?  Sure, we could plant flowers in Afghanistan and walk away.  Do you know what happens then, GuitarStv? 

We get your point that going in the military can put people in a position to make bad decisions.  Then again, you could go to work for GM and have to make a decision on whether or not to spend 10 cents more on a part that might save 4 lives next year, or be a loan officer at a bank where you might have to reject a loan that could destroy someone's life.  Your knee-jerk anti-military statements - "does that really sound like a group of people that you want your children to grow up with?" - are what people have a problem with.   Conversely, would anyone really want their kid to grow up and make knee-jerk decisions about entire groups of people based clearly on their personal bias?  This would be like me saying all Canadians are weaklings, since your country has been hiding under the skirt of American foreign policy for the last century.  Pretty ignorant statement, right? I have no idea what you do for a living, GuitarStv (although judging by your number of posts, I would hope you are retired) but if someone came along and passed judgement on your employer (and by extension, you) based on incomplete, biased media reports, I think you would probably take issue with it as well.

If you have facts and evidence that show that the US military is monolithic entity intent on killing innocent people whenever possible on a massive scale, please share it with us. 

Sailor Sam

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #308 on: January 26, 2016, 10:47:38 AM »
FFS, it DOES NOT MATTER that the orders come from civilians. It is the individual soldier who is tasked with carrying them out. Do you want to take the chance that you are that individual soldier who is ordered to torture someone or fire on an unarmed civilian? When that order will be given with a lot of communal pressure to obey and probably in a very stressful situation? Do you want to have to make that kind of split-second moral choice?

I don't fear having to make those kinds of decisions. Because I believe I have the training to respond correctly. And I believe I have enough strength of character to tread the line, and live with myself afterwards.

Then you are a better man than I, but please do have sympathy for those of us who would not want to be in that position, no matter what the financial benefits.

As far as I can tell, I don't hold any judgement against people who choose a civilian path. I think it's honourable to serve your country, but that doesn't automatically make a civilian life dishonourable. It takes a certain kind of courage to know your own strengths. You've examined you conscious, and found yourself a bad match for a volunteer force. I'm curious though, what you would do in a draft situation. If drafted, would you go? Dodge? Does the UK have a defined route for pacifist and contentious objectors?

Northwestie

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #309 on: January 26, 2016, 10:56:04 AM »
While I never served in the military and I would advise my kid against it (she went to college), I see why some youngsters see it as a viable option.  I've worked with military folks in my job now and then and some were just plain jerks.  Others we plain upstanding folks who were trying to do their best in their job, be a supportive spouse, and raise their kids well.

If your circumstances leave you with little support or finances it could be a way to learn a skill, go to college, and bring out your grit.   I blame morons such as Dick Cheney and GW for sending our good men and women into foreign escapades not the folks in uniform.   While not my cup of tea, I would not disparage a young person for choosing to pay for college via ROTC and such.  Cheers.

Veritasvosliberabit

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #310 on: January 26, 2016, 11:21:48 AM »

Military members don't choose to fight, or want to fight wars that come around. That's idiotic. Why would I want to risk my life for someone else's benefit if I get paid the same sitting in the US shuffling paperwork?

As I said in the thread above, I met a whole bunch of Army Infantry men and women who were all bummed out that their orders to deploy to Iraq had been cancelled. The only reason for their disappointment any of them were able to articulate was that they had been counting on the extra pay that they would get if they were deployed.

For those of you who've been in the military, is it or is it not true that the government pays you extra money if you go overseas to fight? I lost track of how many people in my community returned from overseas deployments and immediately bought new pickup trucks. My guess is that that money must've come from somewhere.

Military wages in a combat zone are tax free.  The biggest reason why, though, is that most Soldiers don't have as many bills or expenses while they are on deployment.  When you have nothing to spend money on for an entire year, it's amazing how much one can save.

Gin1984

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #311 on: January 26, 2016, 11:26:15 AM »
FFS, it DOES NOT MATTER that the orders come from civilians. It is the individual soldier who is tasked with carrying them out. Do you want to take the chance that you are that individual soldier who is ordered to torture someone or fire on an unarmed civilian? When that order will be given with a lot of communal pressure to obey and probably in a very stressful situation? Do you want to have to make that kind of split-second moral choice?

I don't fear having to make those kinds of decisions. Because I believe I have the training to respond correctly. And I believe I have enough strength of character to tread the line, and live with myself afterwards.

Then you are a better man than I, but please do have sympathy for those of us who would not want to be in that position, no matter what the financial benefits.

As far as I can tell, I don't hold any judgement against people who choose a civilian path. I think it's honourable to serve your country, but that doesn't automatically make a civilian life dishonourable. It takes a certain kind of courage to know your own strengths. You've examined you conscious, and found yourself a bad match for a volunteer force. I'm curious though, what you would do in a draft situation. If drafted, would you go? Dodge? Does the UK have a defined route for pacifist and contentious objectors?
I'd go to jail.

Veritasvosliberabit

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #312 on: January 26, 2016, 11:28:57 AM »
I respect your opinions, and I agree with your premise that the world would be a much better place if the military wasn't necessary, and I'd wholly support that. However, that idealism isn't likely to spring into being anytime soon. I'd rather have a professional fighting force and not need it, than not have one and need it.

The need for the military, at least in its current incarnation, ended with nuclear proliferation.

I think you guys are painting with a very broad brush here. You conversation is analogous to saying that an organization or a group is morally deficient if a small minority of its members commit a crime.

you're missing the point. it's not a minority that are committing a crime. it's 100%: all of it and all of the people who participate.

You're going to have to elaborate on this.

There's not much to elaborate. Fighting for a force and government that has been regularly destabilizing countries for well over 50 years to go kill people is a horrible thing to do.

Do you return fire at someone shooting at you who's using a child as a shield?

That dude wouldn't be using a child as a shield if the members of the military didn't invade their country and destroy their cities.

It's entirely possible to reduce the number of incidents that happen by including more moral and talented people in the military.

Again. Oxymoron. The "incident" is participation.


Also your constant "only following orders" line didn't work too well for the Nazis.


Don't interpret this as me apologizing for ISIS. I think the people who join that organization are awful as well.

Wait, what?  So now the guy that hates the military for all the innocent people we've killed thinks that we no longer need a military because we have nuclear weapons?  In other words, respond to any level of attack or threat by nuking them?  Brilliant statecraft!  No one will ever bother the US again!

Veritasvosliberabit

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #313 on: January 26, 2016, 11:32:58 AM »
Military members don't choose to fight, or want to fight wars that come around. That's idiotic. Why would I want to risk my life for someone else's benefit if I get paid the same sitting in the US shuffling paperwork? If you have any understanding of international relations you understand that we only use the military as a last resort. We spend years leveraging assets with NGOs, the State Department, and various international organizations. Ideally, the goal would be to eliminate or neutralize the threat while it's small and unable to present a threat to our country, rather than waiting for a situation like Germany or Japan rapidly expanding and consolidating power before we intervene.

Not all, but most former members of the military I've known are hawks. They vote Republican, and they like candidates who have military experience and are tough on "defense," i.e., they want to invade other people's countries and take their stuff.

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Also, most people also don't understand that the military is primarily an economic force. The largest threat to our country is economic.

I totally agree with this. The main reasons why our military invades or doesn't invade any given country all have to do with money. The whole moral superiority, patriotism thing is just a ruse to cover up the U.S. government's real agenda.

This is a half-truth at best.  You can be strong on defense without wanting to invade anyone.   Since we're the first to suffer when we invade a country, the vast majority of us DON'T want to go to war.   

Shane

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #314 on: January 26, 2016, 11:41:34 AM »
That's why I put "defense" in quotes. It used to be called the U.S. Department of War, which was a more honest name, IMO.

Veritasvosliberabit

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #315 on: January 26, 2016, 11:42:59 AM »
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/15/90-of-people-killed-by-us-drone-strikes-in-afghani/
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/24/-sp-us-drone-strikes-kill-1147
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Wikileaks-Reveals-CIA-Admitted-Drone-Strikes-Ineffective--20141218-0043.html

I can come up with more.  There are an awful lot of oopsies being wantonly made all over women, children, and innocent people.

Like I said before, the military doesn't pick targets, they don't make the calls. The title of that last article is 'CIA admitted...' That also doesn't fit the definition as 'wanton' as they are clearly provoked strikes against assumed targets. Unless you're saying they deliberately desired the death of civilians. The evidence doesn't support that.

It was the US supreme court, not me.

What?

How could the detention center be legal at all if Congress has blocked funding for any trials for those still imprisoned there?

There’s no clear answer. The US Supreme Court, in four important decisions, Rasul v. Bush, Boumediene v. Bush, Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, and Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, held that international law applies to Guantanamo detainees, that they cannot be held indefinitely without trial, that constitutional habeas corpus protections apply to them, and that the combatant status review tribunals were unconstitutional and violated the Geneva Conventions. Yet Congress and the executive branch have, through policy and legislation, strenuously avoided implementation of these decisions. The United States has also been chastised repeatedly by other states and the United Nations and its human rights organs that its interpretation of the laws of war concerning the detainees is wrong and against international consensus. Since 2002, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights of the Organization of American States has issued and reextended precautionary measures against the United States (the equivalent of domestic law injunctive orders), requesting that the United States take urgent measures necessary to have the legal status of the detainees determined by a “competent tribunal.”
http://www.bu.edu/today/2013/gitmo-the-legal-mess-behind-the-ethical-mess/

I agree, that's still ongoing, but I'd hardly consider detaining dangerous terrorists a severe ethical concern. It's clearly a legal and diplomatic concern which needs to be worked out. Legality and funding are two different things. The military is involved in none of that decision making process, it just maintains the facility until ordered to do so. Unfortunately the military can't say no. Imagine that, we work for the government. Once again, blame the civilians running the government, not the military.

No one has argued that the military is bereft of crime. No one is saying that's even possible. But stop using red herrings to support your points. "Hey guys, the military is bad because 50 years ago the Mai Lai Massacre happened." Wow, thanks for the newsflash. Give us evidence of systemic problems, policies that break law, large ethical problems. Provide for me those publicly available documents. Don't point to a sample service-member that got a DUI last night and tell me that the entire population is bad. Yes, someone that actually goes out and does this stuff can have a different ethical standpoint than a person that sits safe, comfortable, and arguing on the internet about their 'expert' opinion based on what they heard from the 'news'.
The three problems I've talked about (civilian deaths by drone strikes, the illegal Guantanmo Bay facilities, supporting pedophiles in Afghanistan) are ongoing right now.  None of them are a one off done by a single serviceman, but large scale problems and the result of institutional policies.  I've provided numerous links and information about them.  Not sure what else you're looking for.

I was looking for REAL evidence. Documents from the Department of Defense, Congress, GAO, the Supreme Court, the President. You can post all your 2nd-hand articles that you want, I don't have time to sift through them, weed out bias, examine the evidence presented. If you suggest and defend systemic problems, SHOW me these institutional policies. None of this is systemic.


Hint: he doesn't have any.  It's much easier to just jerk the knee.

Veritasvosliberabit

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #316 on: January 26, 2016, 11:47:02 AM »
FFS, it DOES NOT MATTER that the orders come from civilians. It is the individual soldier who is tasked with carrying them out. Do you want to take the chance that you are that individual soldier who is ordered to torture someone or fire on an unarmed civilian? When that order will be given with a lot of communal pressure to obey and probably in a very stressful situation? Do you want to have to make that kind of split-second moral choice?
Ok, once again, torture isn't happening anymore.  We could have a separate argument about what constitutes torture, but it isn't happening and when it was it wasn't done by the military predominantly.

As to the drone question, while I think the expanding scope is problematic, I have no problem with taking out terrorists.  As I said earlier, a great deal of time and effort is made to minimize civilian casualties. 

I find it amazing that civilian leadership gets a free pass as we continue to insult the military members, the vast majority of whom serve with honor to protect our way of life.

Torture is still happening at Guantanamo Bay.  Because there is little hope of the inmates ever seeing a day in court or being released, a lot of them started hunger strikes.  The military has been strapping them down to chairs and ramming tubes up their noses to force feed them.  The military absolutely knows that what they're doing is wrong too . . . since they have deemed it OK to refuse orders regarding this treatment.  (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/guantanamo/article20817624.html)

Ah.  It's OK because you're 'taking out terrorists'.  Granted, you're taking out 9 innocent civilians for each terrorist (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/15/90-of-people-killed-by-us-drone-strikes-in-afghani/) . . . but whatever.  You can tell the mothers of the dead children that you tried really hard.  They can't be too upset about the matter, it's not like the dead are American!  Then of course, we get into the whole matter of executing people without a trial, without public evidence, without checks and balances.  Certainly nothing can be wrong with this practice.

Civilian leadership absolutely should not get a free pass.  The people responsible for opening Guantanamo Bay should be tried as war criminals.  There should also be charges for any soldier involved in the detention of the many innocent people there as well.  They are, after all, choosing to follow illegal orders.


Quote
I was looking for REAL evidence. Documents from the Department of Defense, Congress, GAO, the Supreme Court, the President. You can post all your 2nd-hand articles that you want, I don't have time to sift through them, weed out bias, examine the evidence presented. If you suggest and defend systemic problems, SHOW me these institutional policies. None of this is systemic.

Mmm.  Arguing in bad faith.  I'm too lazy to learn on my own, and I've already made up my mind about the way things are.  Bring me more evidence that I might reject it out of hand as not being REAL evidence, (admittedly without bothering to first read it).

So now force-feeding people on hunger strikes is torture?

shelivesthedream

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #317 on: January 26, 2016, 11:49:41 AM »
FFS, it DOES NOT MATTER that the orders come from civilians. It is the individual soldier who is tasked with carrying them out. Do you want to take the chance that you are that individual soldier who is ordered to torture someone or fire on an unarmed civilian? When that order will be given with a lot of communal pressure to obey and probably in a very stressful situation? Do you want to have to make that kind of split-second moral choice?

I don't fear having to make those kinds of decisions. Because I believe I have the training to respond correctly. And I believe I have enough strength of character to tread the line, and live with myself afterwards.

Then you are a better man than I, but please do have sympathy for those of us who would not want to be in that position, no matter what the financial benefits.

As far as I can tell, I don't hold any judgement against people who choose a civilian path. I think it's honourable to serve your country, but that doesn't automatically make a civilian life dishonourable. It takes a certain kind of courage to know your own strengths. You've examined you conscious, and found yourself a bad match for a volunteer force. I'm curious though, what you would do in a draft situation. If drafted, would you go? Dodge? Does the UK have a defined route for pacifist and contentious objectors?

I'm not that well-informed about the history of conscription after the Second World War, but assuming the options were:
1. Fight and possibly kill.
2. Hide.
3. Jail.

I'd pick #3, jail. However, if it ever came to it I would be ASTONISHED if there weren't an option to do longer service in a non-combat role (e.g. ambulance driver), whether in the war zone or at home. And if it were a war where the UK's soil were threatened I would be very keen to be involved with managing and promoting food and clothing rationing because it would be a good match for my skill set and interests and values.

GuitarStv

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #318 on: January 26, 2016, 12:34:13 PM »
Of course we do "bad" things.  No military member will deny that.

That's kinda where my first point was coming from.  Several military members in this thread have denied that.


You look at the end product of the decisions we make and call us bad because you don't see the alternatives we often face.

Please enlighten me.  Explain the alternative scenario that supports torturing innocent people in Guantanamo Bay.  Explain why rights should only apply to some people.


We are castigated for supporting unsavory characters around the world, but what decision would you make, GuitarStv, if the alternative to supporting child molesters was having even more people die?  Sure, we could plant flowers in Afghanistan and walk away.  Do you know what happens then, GuitarStv? 

I don't know.  Is it worse than what happens if you keep on doing what you've been doing?

Do you know what happens when you put tyrannical people into positions of power in a poor country?  The US caused the Iranian revolution by supporting the Shah in Iran.  Didn't work out too well.  When you put Saddam in power. . . didn't work out too well.  Or when you armed and trained the Taliban . . . oh shit, that's why you're in Afghanistan!

But I get it.  There is now a need to put terrible people in power to correct for the mistake of putting terrible people in power.  It's certainly a strategy that has been employed before.  But hey, 'winning hearts and minds' . . .

Quote
“The reason we were here is because we heard the terrible things the Taliban were doing to people, how they were taking away human rights,” said Dan Quinn, a former Special Forces captain who beat up an American-backed militia commander for keeping a boy chained to his bed as a sex slave. “But we were putting people into power who would do things that were worse than the Taliban did — that was something village elders voiced to me.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html


Then again, you could go to work for GM and have to make a decision on whether or not to spend 10 cents more on a part that might save 4 lives next year, or be a loan officer at a bank where you might have to reject a loan that could destroy someone's life.

Reply #191.  In a civilian job you can just walk away any time you feel that your morals are being compromised.  This is not always possible when you enlist.


If you have facts and evidence that show that the US military is monolithic entity intent on killing innocent people whenever possible on a massive scale, please share it with us.

That's not a position I've taken, or a claim I've made.

GuitarStv

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #319 on: January 26, 2016, 12:39:22 PM »
So now force-feeding people on hunger strikes is torture?

That's what the UN Human Rights Council says:
"in cases involving people on hunger strikes, the duty of medical personnel to act ethically and the principle of respect for individuals’ autonomy, among other principles, must be respected. Under these principles, it is unjustifiable to engage in forced feeding of individuals contrary to their informed and voluntary refusal of such a measure."
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=13278#sthash.q4Evvf6k.dpuf

It's what the World Medical Association cautions doctors about:
"Where a prisoner refuses nourishment and is considered by the physician as capable of forming an unimpaired and rational judgment concerning the consequences of such a voluntary refusal of nourishment, he or she shall not be fed artificially."
http://www.wma.net/en/30publications/10policies/c18/

It's also how the person being force fed describes it.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4769604.stm



So . . . yeah, looks pretty resoundingly like torture.

dramaman

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #320 on: January 26, 2016, 12:48:02 PM »
So now force-feeding people on hunger strikes is torture?

That's what the UN Human Rights Council says:
"in cases involving people on hunger strikes, the duty of medical personnel to act ethically and the principle of respect for individuals’ autonomy, among other principles, must be respected. Under these principles, it is unjustifiable to engage in forced feeding of individuals contrary to their informed and voluntary refusal of such a measure."
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=13278#sthash.q4Evvf6k.dpuf

It's what the World Medical Association cautions doctors about:
"Where a prisoner refuses nourishment and is considered by the physician as capable of forming an unimpaired and rational judgment concerning the consequences of such a voluntary refusal of nourishment, he or she shall not be fed artificially."
http://www.wma.net/en/30publications/10policies/c18/

It's also how the person being force fed describes it.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4769604.stm



So . . . yeah, looks pretty resoundingly like torture.

Particularly considering the harsh methods they use to do the force feeding. I can't imagine how anyone could watch the pain and discomfort that is being forced on the recipients against their will and NOT view it as torture.

Travis

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #321 on: January 26, 2016, 12:53:38 PM »
Let's put this in some more relatable context.

Say that you live in a duplex.  In the other side of the duplex is a suspected murderer.  Do you think it would be right for the police to bomb the duplex, killing you, your wife, your children, your visiting grandmother, and the wife and children of the suspected murder?  If this scenario isn't OK in your neighborhood, why is it OK in a neighborhood in a foreign country?

No warning, no trial, no evidence presented, no judgement by peers, large numbers of civilian casualties.  How would it make your close friends feel towards the police?  In what way is this different than a terrorist bombing a building full of civilians?

Wow this is comparing two completely different colored apples and oranges.  If the police think a suspect in their own neighborhood is a terrorist, they don't need to fire missiles. They're there. They surround the house and attempt to arrest the guy.  Explain to me how we're going to do that in a foreign country?  Congress and the last two Presidents declared members of these organizations to be wartime combatants. For the most part the international legal community agrees with that assessment.  The nations we launch airstrikes into have given us that permission.  Only in rare cases have they given permission for us to go in with ground troops to kill or capture someone.  In the case of Bin Laden and a couple guys in Africa we didn't ask and it could have gotten our troops killed for doing so.  In war you don't owe the enemy a trial while they're in the field. Particularly if they're unreachable.  There's never been a war in the history of war that a civilian wasn't accidentally killed.  It's unfortunate, but necessity often outweighs it.  You might feel a little different (then again maybe you wouldn't) if you knew how many of these strikes we turned off at the last minute because we were well aware of how many civilians were in the way and we waited for a better time. Sometimes there is no better time or option. 

For every building accidentally bombed there were dozens of calls for artillery or air support denied to our own troops because we were too close to civilians.  Those denied calls have killed dozens of our own over the last decade.  Would we like to fight a war where nobody innocent died? Of course.   Until we get to that point, all we have are the tools at our disposal.  Apparently you missed my point earlier where we killed over a million civilians in less than four years of WWII mostly through bombing.  In the last 14 years we haven't come close.  Your example terrorist doesn't give a shit who he's killing.  A bus full of civilians is just that. In fact he went after that bus specifically because it nothing but civilians and it makes for eye-catching news on TV.  That's the difference between us.  And I think it's pretty disturbing you can't see that.

GuitarStv

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #322 on: January 26, 2016, 01:46:22 PM »
Let's put this in some more relatable context.

Say that you live in a duplex.  In the other side of the duplex is a suspected murderer.  Do you think it would be right for the police to bomb the duplex, killing you, your wife, your children, your visiting grandmother, and the wife and children of the suspected murder?  If this scenario isn't OK in your neighborhood, why is it OK in a neighborhood in a foreign country?

No warning, no trial, no evidence presented, no judgement by peers, large numbers of civilian casualties.  How would it make your close friends feel towards the police?  In what way is this different than a terrorist bombing a building full of civilians?

Wow this is comparing two completely different colored apples and oranges.  If the police think a suspect in their own neighborhood is a terrorist, they don't need to fire missiles. They're there. They surround the house and attempt to arrest the guy.  Explain to me how we're going to do that in a foreign country?

You would have to get support from the country you're entering.  Then you would use the same tactics that are expected of police in the US.  I didn't say it would be easier.  Drone strikes are easier.  It would treat foreign people the same way as US citizens though, and not presuppose that their lives don't matter.


The nations we launch airstrikes into have given us that permission.

Really?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/pakistani-court-declares-us-drone-strikes-in-the-countrys-tribal-belt-illegal-8609843.html

That's not what Pakistan says.


Only in rare cases have they given permission for us to go in with ground troops to kill or capture someone.  In the case of Bin Laden and a couple guys in Africa we didn't ask and it could have gotten our troops killed for doing so.  In war you don't owe the enemy a trial while they're in the field.  Particularly if they're unreachable.  There's never been a war in the history of war that a civilian wasn't accidentally killed.  It's unfortunate, but necessity often outweighs it.

There have always been terrorists.  The US therefore has always been and will forever be in a perpetual state of war if you believe that you're at war with 'terrorists'.  It means that in my scenario above, changing 'murderer' to 'unabomber' would render the scenario A-OK, because then you're killing a terrorist.


For every building accidentally bombed there were dozens of calls for artillery or air support denied to our own troops because we were too close to civilians.  Those denied calls have killed dozens of our own over the last decade.  Would we like to fight a war where nobody innocent died? Of course.   Until we get to that point, all we have are the tools at our disposal.  Apparently you missed my point earlier where we killed over a million civilians in less than four years of WWII mostly through bombing.  In the last 14 years we haven't come close.  Your example terrorist doesn't give a shit who he's killing.  A bus full of civilians is just that. In fact he went after that bus specifically because it nothing but civilians and it makes for eye-catching news on TV.  That's the difference between us.  And I think it's pretty disturbing you can't see that.

I do see a difference between killing civilians as a goal, and killing civilians because you screwed up.  It doesn't change the fact that the result is the same.  In the latter you have tried to minimize casualties (which is laudable) and in the former you have tried to maximize them.  Both scenarios you have killed someone because you believe that your goal is more important than their life though.

You don't get a free pass to kill civilians sometimes with drones because sometimes you avoid killing them.  You don't get a free pass to kill civilians because a lot of them were killed in WWII.  You don't get a free pass to kill civilians because it's easier than finding another way to bring them to justice.  It's still wrong.

Shane

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #323 on: January 26, 2016, 01:57:05 PM »
The point that civilians order the military to do the things that it does is well taken. Given that we all know that U.S. civilian commanders have a well-documented track record of ordering the military to do bad things, the question is, why would honorable, moral people be willing to volunteer to join the military and do the politicians dirty work for them?

I'm not as much concerned about the ethics of individual actions that are taken in the heat of battle, e.g., the commander says, "Shoot!," and soldiers end up inadvertently killing noncombatants. In most cases individual members of the military do what they're told to do because that's how they stay alive, which is completely understandable.

My issue is more with the decision making process that people go through when they're deciding whether or not to join the military in the first place. Why choose to put yourself into a position where you may be "forced" to do bad things? It seems like the answer, which has been confirmed by this thread, is that the military compensates its members quite well for their "work:" highly competitive salaries, excellent benefits, free college, medical care for life...

The argument that more good, honorable, moral people joining the military will, in some way, help to make the military better is disingenuous, IMO, and I think members of this board who are posting in this thread must know this from their experience in the military. Over and over again, I have read and heard accounts of individual members of the military who have spoken up about unethical things they observed while in the military, and in 100% of the cases I've heard about, either nothing happened or their "complaints" caused them to get forced out of the military and ended their careers.

In the article on the U.S. Military's support of pedophiles in Afghanistan that @GuitarStv linked above, a U.S. Army captain was "relieved of his command" for beating up a U.S. backed militia commander who had a young boy chained to his bed so he could use him as a sex slave. An Army sergeant who joined in to help beating up the abusive, pedophile Afghan militia commander is being "forcibly retired" by the Army as retaliation for his participation in the beating of the Afghan pedophile.

Okay, so you can say those guys crossed the line by beating the guy up. Maybe they should've gone through the "chain-of-command," and reported it, right? In the same article linked by @GuitarStv above it describes an Army major who sent an email to officers at another base warning them that a militia commander who had recently been transferred to their district was a pedophile and had been abusing boys for years. That was the right thing to do, right, send an email to alert the chain of command that a known pedophile had just been transferred into their district? WRONG! Here's what the military did instead :

Quote
The one American service member who was punished in the investigation that followed was Major Brezler, who had sent the email warning about Mr. Jan, his lawyers said. In one of Major Brezler’s hearings, Marine Corps lawyers warned that information about the police commander’s penchant for abusing boys might be classified. The Marine Corps has initiated proceedings to discharge Major Brezler.

Maybe current or former members of the military who are posting to this thread can give us some real life examples of people they know or have heard of who have stood up and reported unethical/immoral practices they observed while in the military and were not punished for their reports? Maybe the media only reports the bad stuff about the military, so I'm open to hearing from those of you who have first hand experience in the military. Have you ever or have you ever heard of anyone who has challenged the military and actually gotten them to change in a meaningful, positive way?

 

MoonShadow

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #324 on: January 26, 2016, 03:12:32 PM »
Quote

In the article on the U.S. Military's support of pedophiles in Afghanistan that @GuitarStv linked above, a U.S. Army captain was "relieved of his command" for beating up a U.S. backed militia commander who had a young boy chained to his bed so he could use him as a sex slave. An Army sergeant who joined in to help beating up the abusive, pedophile Afghan militia commander is being "forcibly retired" by the Army as retaliation for his participation in the beating of the Afghan pedophile.

Okay, so you can say those guys crossed the line by beating the guy up. Maybe they should've gone through the "chain-of-command," and reported it, right? In the same article linked by @GuitarStv above it describes an Army major who sent an email to officers at another base warning them that a militia commander who had recently been transferred to their district was a pedophile and had been abusing boys for years. That was the right thing to do, right, send an email to alert the chain of command that a known pedophile had just been transferred into their district? WRONG! Here's what the military did instead :

Maybe current or former members of the military who are posting to this thread can give us some real life examples of people they know or have heard of who have stood up and reported unethical/immoral practices they observed while in the military and were not punished for their reports?

I never witnessed anything remotely rising to a truly criminal nature while I was in the USMC; mostly the goofball antics of over-grown boys with testosterone to burn off & access to explosives.  It's actually why I found the movie, Sgt. Bilko so hilarious when I first saw it, because I had seen crazy stuff like that, so it hit home.  However, I was long gone before 9/11; and Jason Stapleton talked about how it was an open secret that the Afghan allies we had when he was over there in special forces were mostly pedophiles, and the culture of power over there encouraged keeping a boy chained to a bed as a status symbol.  He implied that it played a good part in his decision to leave the service on a radio show a few weeks ago.

Yaeger

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #325 on: January 26, 2016, 04:11:57 PM »
I'm concerned about the level of moral absolutism here. That's a dangerous attitude. You're basically adopting a stance completely contrary to real world scenarios. It's like you're sitting in a classroom somewhere debating about the utility of war in a sterile environment, while knowing nothing about actual conflict. You don't plan a system around a zero failure rate. You expect civilian deaths, you expect accidents, you have a plan to mitigate, because you can't ever eliminate, moral failings. You measure and estimate acceptable casualty rates. You send Americans into harm's way, knowing that many of them will be shipped home in a cold, flag-draped bag. How many are you willing to let die?

As to allies being pedophiles. It's a legal matter. Troops have no legal authority to enforce international or US law in someone else's country. They can bring up their concerns, give evidence, provide everything necessary, but ultimately international law enforcement decides if it's worth pursuing and you may have diplomatic options. But guess what, absent of due process of law to convict the pedophile, you'll have to probably have to continue working with whomever. And chances are, the pedophile will be the senior 'government' official in that area. Yay.
http://nypost.com/2015/09/25/yes-our-troops-were-ordered-to-ignore-afghan-pedophiles/

Simply put, if you haven't served and you don't understand that, you'll never understand. The Department of Defense is the largest employer in the world with over 3.2 million people working all over the globe. We need more upstanding moral people, so convince your kiddos to sign up for the adventure.

GuitarStv

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #326 on: January 26, 2016, 05:09:04 PM »
I'm concerned about the level of moral absolutism here. That's a dangerous attitude. You're basically adopting a stance completely contrary to real world scenarios. It's like you're sitting in a classroom somewhere debating about the utility of war in a sterile environment, while knowing nothing about actual conflict. You don't plan a system around a zero failure rate. You expect civilian deaths, you expect accidents, you have a plan to mitigate, because you can't ever eliminate, moral failings. You measure and estimate acceptable casualty rates. You send Americans into harm's way, knowing that many of them will be shipped home in a cold, flag-draped bag. How many are you willing to let die?

As to allies being pedophiles. It's a legal matter. Troops have no legal authority to enforce international or US law in someone else's country. They can bring up their concerns, give evidence, provide everything necessary, but ultimately international law enforcement decides if it's worth pursuing and you may have diplomatic options. But guess what, absent of due process of law to convict the pedophile, you'll have to probably have to continue working with whomever. And chances are, the pedophile will be the senior 'government' official in that area. Yay.
http://nypost.com/2015/09/25/yes-our-troops-were-ordered-to-ignore-afghan-pedophiles/

Simply put, if you haven't served and you don't understand that, you'll never understand. The Department of Defense is the largest employer in the world with over 3.2 million people working all over the globe. We need more upstanding moral people, so convince your kiddos to sign up for the adventure.

How does having more upstanding moral people enlist help anything when pedophiles are raping children in their military camp with full blessing of the powers that be?  Especially when the people from the local village are saying that these guys you're putting in power are worse than the guys you're there to save them from?

Yaeger

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #327 on: January 26, 2016, 06:55:39 PM »
I'm concerned about the level of moral absolutism here. That's a dangerous attitude. You're basically adopting a stance completely contrary to real world scenarios. It's like you're sitting in a classroom somewhere debating about the utility of war in a sterile environment, while knowing nothing about actual conflict. You don't plan a system around a zero failure rate. You expect civilian deaths, you expect accidents, you have a plan to mitigate, because you can't ever eliminate, moral failings. You measure and estimate acceptable casualty rates. You send Americans into harm's way, knowing that many of them will be shipped home in a cold, flag-draped bag. How many are you willing to let die?

As to allies being pedophiles. It's a legal matter. Troops have no legal authority to enforce international or US law in someone else's country. They can bring up their concerns, give evidence, provide everything necessary, but ultimately international law enforcement decides if it's worth pursuing and you may have diplomatic options. But guess what, absent of due process of law to convict the pedophile, you'll have to probably have to continue working with whomever. And chances are, the pedophile will be the senior 'government' official in that area. Yay.
http://nypost.com/2015/09/25/yes-our-troops-were-ordered-to-ignore-afghan-pedophiles/

Simply put, if you haven't served and you don't understand that, you'll never understand. The Department of Defense is the largest employer in the world with over 3.2 million people working all over the globe. We need more upstanding moral people, so convince your kiddos to sign up for the adventure.

How does having more upstanding moral people enlist help anything when pedophiles are raping children in their military camp with full blessing of the powers that be?  Especially when the people from the local village are saying that these guys you're putting in power are worse than the guys you're there to save them from?

When you say "you're putting in power", let's redirect that decision making process, analysis, and responsibly to the level it belongs. Which isn't the military. When you're talking about other moral actions, committed by members of military without authorization, please feel free to add more upstanding moral people to reduce the likelihood of that occurrence.

Villanelle

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #328 on: January 26, 2016, 10:21:58 PM »
The point that civilians order the military to do the things that it does is well taken. Given that we all know that U.S. civilian commanders have a well-documented track record of ordering the military to do bad things, the question is, why would honorable, moral people be willing to volunteer to join the military and do the politicians dirty work for them?

I'm not as much concerned about the ethics of individual actions that are taken in the heat of battle, e.g., the commander says, "Shoot!," and soldiers end up inadvertently killing noncombatants. In most cases individual members of the military do what they're told to do because that's how they stay alive, which is completely understandable.

My issue is more with the decision making process that people go through when they're deciding whether or not to join the military in the first place. Why choose to put yourself into a position where you may be "forced" to do bad things? It seems like the answer, which has been confirmed by this thread, is that the military compensates its members quite well for their "work:" highly competitive salaries, excellent benefits, free college, medical care for life...

The argument that more good, honorable, moral people joining the military will, in some way, help to make the military better is disingenuous, IMO, and I think members of this board who are posting in this thread must know this from their experience in the military. Over and over again, I have read and heard accounts of individual members of the military who have spoken up about unethical things they observed while in the military, and in 100% of the cases I've heard about, either nothing happened or their "complaints" caused them to get forced out of the military and ended their careers.

In the article on the U.S. Military's support of pedophiles in Afghanistan that @GuitarStv linked above, a U.S. Army captain was "relieved of his command" for beating up a U.S. backed militia commander who had a young boy chained to his bed so he could use him as a sex slave. An Army sergeant who joined in to help beating up the abusive, pedophile Afghan militia commander is being "forcibly retired" by the Army as retaliation for his participation in the beating of the Afghan pedophile.

Okay, so you can say those guys crossed the line by beating the guy up. Maybe they should've gone through the "chain-of-command," and reported it, right? In the same article linked by @GuitarStv above it describes an Army major who sent an email to officers at another base warning them that a militia commander who had recently been transferred to their district was a pedophile and had been abusing boys for years. That was the right thing to do, right, send an email to alert the chain of command that a known pedophile had just been transferred into their district? WRONG! Here's what the military did instead :

Quote
The one American service member who was punished in the investigation that followed was Major Brezler, who had sent the email warning about Mr. Jan, his lawyers said. In one of Major Brezler’s hearings, Marine Corps lawyers warned that information about the police commander’s penchant for abusing boys might be classified. The Marine Corps has initiated proceedings to discharge Major Brezler.

Maybe current or former members of the military who are posting to this thread can give us some real life examples of people they know or have heard of who have stood up and reported unethical/immoral practices they observed while in the military and were not punished for their reports? Maybe the media only reports the bad stuff about the military, so I'm open to hearing from those of you who have first hand experience in the military. Have you ever or have you ever heard of anyone who has challenged the military and actually gotten them to change in a meaningful, positive way?

Nah.  That's certainly not the reason most of the people in our circles joined and stayed in.  Most would be making more, even including benefits, in the civilian world.  Many of the reasons our friends list include wanting to make a difference, wanting to affect positive change and inspire future ethical leaders, etc. 

As for your final question, look at the great strides the military has made in addressing sexual assault.  Is that not meaningful, positive change?

GuitarStv

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #329 on: January 27, 2016, 06:19:16 AM »
look at the great strides the military has made in addressing sexual assault.  Is that not meaningful, positive change?

Absolutely, the fact that the military has started to address abuse of it's members by other members as a problem is a meaningful and positive change.  Hopefully the changes recently made will largely put an end to the problem.

That this change is only happening recently, and that it hasn't been addressed until now is not a good track record for handling serious problems.  If you're only just starting to prevent sexual assault between your comrades, it doesn't bode well for treatment of the guys you're fighting.

I have a question for you though . . . do you think that the military changed their sexual assault policy because the top commanders suddenly decided that it was no longer OK, or because people started to ask hard and pointed questions after many cases of abuse came to light?

Travis

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #330 on: January 27, 2016, 10:26:01 AM »
look at the great strides the military has made in addressing sexual assault.  Is that not meaningful, positive change?

Absolutely, the fact that the military has started to address abuse of it's members by other members as a problem is a meaningful and positive change.  Hopefully the changes recently made will largely put an end to the problem.

That this change is only happening recently, and that it hasn't been addressed until now is not a good track record for handling serious problems.  If you're only just starting to prevent sexual assault between your comrades, it doesn't bode well for treatment of the guys you're fighting.

I have a question for you though . . . do you think that the military changed their sexual assault policy because the top commanders suddenly decided that it was no longer OK, or because people started to ask hard and pointed questions after many cases of abuse came to light?

Bit of both.  I would say DoD policy and culture started to take a dramatic turn after Tailhook '91.  The publicity level of that event was probably a combination of increased presence of women in male-dominated military roles, increase in media scrutiny, and a post-Cold War culture shift in general.  After the exposure of the incident itself, the DoN's official "what's the big deal?" response was damning and just added fuel to the fire.  The mid to late 90s saw increased exposure to abuses of power in the academy and enlisted training environments.  Rather than treating them as single events, the doors were flung open and every aspect of the culture began receiving scrutiny.  I can't speak for the entire DoD, but I think most commanders never thought it was okay; however, for many their tolerance for hazing, immature behavior, and hostile work environments was a lot more lax than it used to be.

Vilgan

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #331 on: January 27, 2016, 12:35:25 PM »
One key difference with the military imo is that you are a lot likelier to be in a position to have an impact, both positive and negative. In Iraq, we set up the first US Airbase in the region and every single day felt like extremely critical things. We set up Intel pipelines. We got the Predator mission flying. We set up satcom so people could have internet. We set up air traffic control so planes could land. I repaired the fiber cable for the UXO robots that are mentioned in Hurt Locker (before the movie goes full Hollywood). Going from showering via water bottles, doing laundry in buckets, etc to a full legit base supporting thousands was an experience you won't get in the civilian world.

Likewise, deploying to South America and spending several months building schools, power lines, irrigation, roads, etc in an area where everyone lived in 3 walled shacks at best and the "good" job was being in the military making $30 a month was eye opening. It was also a nice change going to a place where everyone rushed out to wave happily at the military vehicles going by :)

At the end of the day, you are a LOT likelier to be a part of something that has a concrete impact on the world around you if you are in the military. I also think its a lot likelier you will be involved in something like Captain Phillips than Rendition and your life will have been better for those experiences. My anecdotal evidence supports this as pretty much every single one of the 100+ military and ex-military people I've known are glad they joined. Most leave, and I left for reasons mentioned previously about having the freedom to choose where to live etc. But it was a great positive influence in my life. Heck, I look at my wife and her brother and they were pretty similar until she joined the military and that, as Robert Frost would say, made all the difference.

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #332 on: January 27, 2016, 11:17:48 PM »
One key difference with the military imo is that you are a lot likelier to be in a position to have an impact, both positive and negative. In Iraq, we set up the first US Airbase in the region and every single day felt like extremely critical things. We set up Intel pipelines. We got the Predator mission flying. We set up satcom so people could have internet. We set up air traffic control so planes could land. I repaired the fiber cable for the UXO robots that are mentioned in Hurt Locker (before the movie goes full Hollywood). Going from showering via water bottles, doing laundry in buckets, etc to a full legit base supporting thousands was an experience you won't get in the civilian world.

Likewise, deploying to South America and spending several months building schools, power lines, irrigation, roads, etc in an area where everyone lived in 3 walled shacks at best and the "good" job was being in the military making $30 a month was eye opening. It was also a nice change going to a place where everyone rushed out to wave happily at the military vehicles going by :)

At the end of the day, you are a LOT likelier to be a part of something that has a concrete impact on the world around you if you are in the military. I also think its a lot likelier you will be involved in something like Captain Phillips than Rendition and your life will have been better for those experiences. My anecdotal evidence supports this as pretty much every single one of the 100+ military and ex-military people I've known are glad they joined. Most leave, and I left for reasons mentioned previously about having the freedom to choose where to live etc. But it was a great positive influence in my life. Heck, I look at my wife and her brother and they were pretty similar until she joined the military and that, as Robert Frost would say, made all the difference.

Yes.  Husband was fortunate enough to deliver life-saving supplies to the Japanese people in the days after the quake and tsunami.  For all the evils, there are plenty (and I'd argue far more) of these kinds of experiences.  We know people who worked humanitarian and rescue efforts in Katrina, those who've lifted fishermen of sinking boats, and more.  Maybe the military does more damage/bad things than civilian companies, but I think they do more good as well. 

Of course none of this is a good reason, in and of itself, to enlist or commission (even combined with potentially free schooling), but it seems to be noticeably absent for conversations about all the bad the military does. 
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 11:20:19 PM by Villanelle »

Gin1984

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #333 on: January 28, 2016, 10:12:10 AM »
One key difference with the military imo is that you are a lot likelier to be in a position to have an impact, both positive and negative. In Iraq, we set up the first US Airbase in the region and every single day felt like extremely critical things. We set up Intel pipelines. We got the Predator mission flying. We set up satcom so people could have internet. We set up air traffic control so planes could land. I repaired the fiber cable for the UXO robots that are mentioned in Hurt Locker (before the movie goes full Hollywood). Going from showering via water bottles, doing laundry in buckets, etc to a full legit base supporting thousands was an experience you won't get in the civilian world.

Likewise, deploying to South America and spending several months building schools, power lines, irrigation, roads, etc in an area where everyone lived in 3 walled shacks at best and the "good" job was being in the military making $30 a month was eye opening. It was also a nice change going to a place where everyone rushed out to wave happily at the military vehicles going by :)

At the end of the day, you are a LOT likelier to be a part of something that has a concrete impact on the world around you if you are in the military. I also think its a lot likelier you will be involved in something like Captain Phillips than Rendition and your life will have been better for those experiences. My anecdotal evidence supports this as pretty much every single one of the 100+ military and ex-military people I've known are glad they joined. Most leave, and I left for reasons mentioned previously about having the freedom to choose where to live etc. But it was a great positive influence in my life. Heck, I look at my wife and her brother and they were pretty similar until she joined the military and that, as Robert Frost would say, made all the difference.

Yes.  Husband was fortunate enough to deliver life-saving supplies to the Japanese people in the days after the quake and tsunami.  For all the evils, there are plenty (and I'd argue far more) of these kinds of experiences.  We know people who worked humanitarian and rescue efforts in Katrina, those who've lifted fishermen of sinking boats, and more.  Maybe the military does more damage/bad things than civilian companies, but I think they do more good as well. 

Of course none of this is a good reason, in and of itself, to enlist or commission (even combined with potentially free schooling), but it seems to be noticeably absent for conversations about all the bad the military does.
Some of us tried to discuss the many positive aspects of military service- life saving, humanitarian aid, environmental protection,  stopping human trafficking, etc... - yet no one wanted to hear it. So after awhile you realize the horse is dead and move on to other topics.
But the question was why we do not/did not sign up.  Yes those things are great BUT you have to risk being assigned the other option which is what seems to be the stopping point for many people.
If I could do many of those things without the increase sexual assault risk and not risk going to war/killing people in non-self defense, then yes I would think it a great idea to join.  Like you mentioned prior, peace corps etc.

Shane

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #334 on: January 28, 2016, 11:34:19 AM »
The OP's question was why don't more of us consider military paying for college.

If all the military did was pluck fishermen off of sinking fishing boats, pass out water bottles to people devastated by hurricanes and defend the U.S. from invasion by foreign armies, then I think close to 100% of us would consider joining or encouraging our children to join to help pay for college.

The reality is that the U.S. government and its military have invaded 2 other countries in the past 14 years FOR NO GOOD REASON, and as a result of our invasions OVER ONE MILLION PEOPLE ARE NOW DEAD! So, you can go on all you want about the good things the military does, but the fact is that the good things the military does in no way even come close to making up for the over one million deaths it has caused since 2001.

If I were a citizen of Iran, I would be scared shitless that the U.S. was going to invade my country next. If I were one of the leaders of Iran, I would do everything within my power to get nuclear weapons to use as a deterrent against a U.S. invasion of my country.

My prediction is that if in his first month in office President Trump ordered the U.S. military to invade and occupy Iran, all of the military people posting in this thread would salute and march off to do what they were told, and I'm sorry but that makes me feel physically ill.

I love the United States and I would gladly fight to the death to defend our country if we were invaded by a foreign army. I would bury IEDs in the road to blow up their vehicles and kill their soldiers. I would hide in the woods and take shots at their soldiers with my hunting rifle as they drove by. I would kill as many of the invading army's soldiers as I possibly could, just as many of the people in Iraq and Afghanistan did when they were invaded by the U.S. military.

I will never, ever participate in one of the U.S. government's invasions of a foreign country. Nor will I ever encourage my child to join an organization that would do something like that. That's my answer to the OP's question.

Vilgan

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #335 on: January 28, 2016, 01:10:32 PM »

My prediction is that if in his first month in office President Trump ordered the U.S. military to invade and occupy Iran, all of the military people posting in this thread would salute and march off to do what they were told, and I'm sorry but that makes me feel physically ill.

Whereas I wish Trump had served in the military. He'd probably be a lot more grounded, sane, and less likely to start a crazy foreign war. As for saluting and marching off to do what we are told, I'm not sure that makes sense. Joining the military doesn't mean you turn off your brain. I drove around base w/ a Kerry bumpersticker and criticized Bush and the invasion of Iraq my entire time in the military.

I never personally had an issue with the invasion of Afghanistan and I'm not sure "No Good Reason" is going to hold up with anyone who has had any connection with the 9/11 attacks. If we'd stayed in Afghanistan instead of starting a second war, I think there would be a lot less criticism of the US Military both globally and domestically.

dramaman

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #336 on: January 28, 2016, 01:20:07 PM »

My prediction is that if in his first month in office President Trump ordered the U.S. military to invade and occupy Iran, all of the military people posting in this thread would salute and march off to do what they were told, and I'm sorry but that makes me feel physically ill.

Whereas I wish Trump had served in the military. He'd probably be a lot more grounded, sane, and less likely to start a crazy foreign war. As for saluting and marching off to do what we are told, I'm not sure that makes sense. Joining the military doesn't mean you turn off your brain. I drove around base w/ a Kerry bumpersticker and criticized Bush and the invasion of Iraq my entire time in the military.

I never personally had an issue with the invasion of Afghanistan and I'm not sure "No Good Reason" is going to hold up with anyone who has had any connection with the 9/11 attacks. If we'd stayed in Afghanistan instead of starting a second war, I think there would be a lot less criticism of the US Military both globally and domestically.

Perhaps I interpret 'salute and march off' differently, but I basically read that to mean they would simply go to war as directed by the President. They would obey the order, but not necessarily like it or support the President giving it.

I honestly have mixed feelings about this. While I disagreed with the Iraq war and would oppose similar unprovoked conflicts, I think that part of the job of being in the military is to fight, if called upon. I don't much respect anyone who joins the military in peace time and then decides to quit when called to actually fight. Its one thing to refuse to obey an illegal command, it's another to simply refuse to go when called up. That's part of the deal and if you didn't like it, then you shouldn't have joined in the first place - which goes back to why someone would not consider the military.

Gin1984

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #337 on: January 28, 2016, 01:36:56 PM »

My prediction is that if in his first month in office President Trump ordered the U.S. military to invade and occupy Iran, all of the military people posting in this thread would salute and march off to do what they were told, and I'm sorry but that makes me feel physically ill.

Whereas I wish Trump had served in the military. He'd probably be a lot more grounded, sane, and less likely to start a crazy foreign war. As for saluting and marching off to do what we are told, I'm not sure that makes sense. Joining the military doesn't mean you turn off your brain. I drove around base w/ a Kerry bumpersticker and criticized Bush and the invasion of Iraq my entire time in the military.

I never personally had an issue with the invasion of Afghanistan and I'm not sure "No Good Reason" is going to hold up with anyone who has had any connection with the 9/11 attacks. If we'd stayed in Afghanistan instead of starting a second war, I think there would be a lot less criticism of the US Military both globally and domestically.
I have heard quite a few arguments against the invasion of Afgahanistan, would you mind detailing what good reason you think we have for invading another country? 

GuitarStv

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #338 on: January 28, 2016, 01:56:06 PM »

My prediction is that if in his first month in office President Trump ordered the U.S. military to invade and occupy Iran, all of the military people posting in this thread would salute and march off to do what they were told, and I'm sorry but that makes me feel physically ill.

Whereas I wish Trump had served in the military. He'd probably be a lot more grounded, sane, and less likely to start a crazy foreign war. As for saluting and marching off to do what we are told, I'm not sure that makes sense. Joining the military doesn't mean you turn off your brain. I drove around base w/ a Kerry bumpersticker and criticized Bush and the invasion of Iraq my entire time in the military.

I never personally had an issue with the invasion of Afghanistan and I'm not sure "No Good Reason" is going to hold up with anyone who has had any connection with the 9/11 attacks. If we'd stayed in Afghanistan instead of starting a second war, I think there would be a lot less criticism of the US Military both globally and domestically.
I have heard quite a few arguments against the invasion of Afgahanistan, would you mind detailing what good reason you think we have for invading another country? 

I'd like to hear a take on this too, considering that the Taliban were not  Al-Qaeda.

dramaman

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #339 on: January 28, 2016, 02:07:46 PM »

My prediction is that if in his first month in office President Trump ordered the U.S. military to invade and occupy Iran, all of the military people posting in this thread would salute and march off to do what they were told, and I'm sorry but that makes me feel physically ill.

Whereas I wish Trump had served in the military. He'd probably be a lot more grounded, sane, and less likely to start a crazy foreign war. As for saluting and marching off to do what we are told, I'm not sure that makes sense. Joining the military doesn't mean you turn off your brain. I drove around base w/ a Kerry bumpersticker and criticized Bush and the invasion of Iraq my entire time in the military.

I never personally had an issue with the invasion of Afghanistan and I'm not sure "No Good Reason" is going to hold up with anyone who has had any connection with the 9/11 attacks. If we'd stayed in Afghanistan instead of starting a second war, I think there would be a lot less criticism of the US Military both globally and domestically.
I have heard quite a few arguments against the invasion of Afgahanistan, would you mind detailing what good reason you think we have for invading another country? 

I'd like to hear a take on this too, considering that the Taliban were not  Al-Qaeda.

My understanding has been that the Taliban were hosting Al-Qaeda and that they were uncooperative in regards to U.S. calls to hand over Bin Laden who openly accepted responsibility for the 9/11 attacks. That was why we invaded Afghanistan. Running up to the invasion I was against it, but in the intervening years, unlike my anti-Iraq war position, my attitude has softened and I no longer think it was unreasonable given that Al-Qaeda had committed an act of war against the U.S. and the Afghanistan Taliban were enabling Al-Qaeda.

Gin1984

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #340 on: January 28, 2016, 02:19:09 PM »

My prediction is that if in his first month in office President Trump ordered the U.S. military to invade and occupy Iran, all of the military people posting in this thread would salute and march off to do what they were told, and I'm sorry but that makes me feel physically ill.

Whereas I wish Trump had served in the military. He'd probably be a lot more grounded, sane, and less likely to start a crazy foreign war. As for saluting and marching off to do what we are told, I'm not sure that makes sense. Joining the military doesn't mean you turn off your brain. I drove around base w/ a Kerry bumpersticker and criticized Bush and the invasion of Iraq my entire time in the military.

I never personally had an issue with the invasion of Afghanistan and I'm not sure "No Good Reason" is going to hold up with anyone who has had any connection with the 9/11 attacks. If we'd stayed in Afghanistan instead of starting a second war, I think there would be a lot less criticism of the US Military both globally and domestically.
I have heard quite a few arguments against the invasion of Afgahanistan, would you mind detailing what good reason you think we have for invading another country? 

I'd like to hear a take on this too, considering that the Taliban were not  Al-Qaeda.

My understanding has been that the Taliban were hosting Al-Qaeda and that they were uncooperative in regards to U.S. calls to hand over Bin Laden who openly accepted responsibility for the 9/11 attacks. That was why we invaded Afghanistan. Running up to the invasion I was against it, but in the intervening years, unlike my anti-Iraq war position, my attitude has softened and I no longer think it was unreasonable given that Al-Qaeda had committed an act of war against the U.S. and the Afghanistan Taliban were enabling Al-Qaeda.
Not exactly:
The Taliban … refused to hand over bin Laden without proof or evidence that he was involved in last week’s attacks on the United States. … The Taliban ambassador to Pakistan … said Friday that deporting him without proof would amount to an “insult to Islam.” (emphasis added)
CNN also provided an explanation for the Taliban’s “refusal,” reporting: “Bin Laden himself has already denied he had anything to do with the attacks, and Taliban officials repeatedly said he could not have been involved in the attacks.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5
"The Taliban would be ready to discuss handing over Osama bin Laden to a neutral country if the US halted the bombing of Afghanistan, a senior Taliban official said today.

Afghanistan's deputy prime minister, Haji Abdul Kabir, told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US.

"If the Taliban is given evidence that Osama bin Laden is involved" and the bombing campaign stopped, "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country", Mr Kabir added."

dramaman

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #341 on: January 28, 2016, 02:32:47 PM »

My prediction is that if in his first month in office President Trump ordered the U.S. military to invade and occupy Iran, all of the military people posting in this thread would salute and march off to do what they were told, and I'm sorry but that makes me feel physically ill.

Whereas I wish Trump had served in the military. He'd probably be a lot more grounded, sane, and less likely to start a crazy foreign war. As for saluting and marching off to do what we are told, I'm not sure that makes sense. Joining the military doesn't mean you turn off your brain. I drove around base w/ a Kerry bumpersticker and criticized Bush and the invasion of Iraq my entire time in the military.

I never personally had an issue with the invasion of Afghanistan and I'm not sure "No Good Reason" is going to hold up with anyone who has had any connection with the 9/11 attacks. If we'd stayed in Afghanistan instead of starting a second war, I think there would be a lot less criticism of the US Military both globally and domestically.
I have heard quite a few arguments against the invasion of Afgahanistan, would you mind detailing what good reason you think we have for invading another country? 

I'd like to hear a take on this too, considering that the Taliban were not  Al-Qaeda.

My understanding has been that the Taliban were hosting Al-Qaeda and that they were uncooperative in regards to U.S. calls to hand over Bin Laden who openly accepted responsibility for the 9/11 attacks. That was why we invaded Afghanistan. Running up to the invasion I was against it, but in the intervening years, unlike my anti-Iraq war position, my attitude has softened and I no longer think it was unreasonable given that Al-Qaeda had committed an act of war against the U.S. and the Afghanistan Taliban were enabling Al-Qaeda.
Not exactly:
The Taliban … refused to hand over bin Laden without proof or evidence that he was involved in last week’s attacks on the United States. … The Taliban ambassador to Pakistan … said Friday that deporting him without proof would amount to an “insult to Islam.” (emphasis added)
CNN also provided an explanation for the Taliban’s “refusal,” reporting: “Bin Laden himself has already denied he had anything to do with the attacks, and Taliban officials repeatedly said he could not have been involved in the attacks.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5
"The Taliban would be ready to discuss handing over Osama bin Laden to a neutral country if the US halted the bombing of Afghanistan, a senior Taliban official said today.

Afghanistan's deputy prime minister, Haji Abdul Kabir, told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US.

"If the Taliban is given evidence that Osama bin Laden is involved" and the bombing campaign stopped, "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country", Mr Kabir added."

Okay, so not as clear cut as I remembered.

Even so, I don't think it unreasonable to assume that the Taliban were merely stalling and had no intention of ever handing Bin Laden and associates over. I think the U.S. leadership realized this early on. Unlike Iraq, I'm willing to give our leadership the benefit of the doubt here. I just don't see that there was any strategic interest or pent up neocon ambition to invade Afghanistan (as there was to invade Iraq) other than to get Bin Laden.



 think the intervening years have for the most part validated Bin Laden's involvement as well as the a reasonable expectation that the Taliban were stalling and would have never handed him over,

Gin1984

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #342 on: January 28, 2016, 02:44:16 PM »

My prediction is that if in his first month in office President Trump ordered the U.S. military to invade and occupy Iran, all of the military people posting in this thread would salute and march off to do what they were told, and I'm sorry but that makes me feel physically ill.

Whereas I wish Trump had served in the military. He'd probably be a lot more grounded, sane, and less likely to start a crazy foreign war. As for saluting and marching off to do what we are told, I'm not sure that makes sense. Joining the military doesn't mean you turn off your brain. I drove around base w/ a Kerry bumpersticker and criticized Bush and the invasion of Iraq my entire time in the military.

I never personally had an issue with the invasion of Afghanistan and I'm not sure "No Good Reason" is going to hold up with anyone who has had any connection with the 9/11 attacks. If we'd stayed in Afghanistan instead of starting a second war, I think there would be a lot less criticism of the US Military both globally and domestically.
I have heard quite a few arguments against the invasion of Afgahanistan, would you mind detailing what good reason you think we have for invading another country? 

I'd like to hear a take on this too, considering that the Taliban were not  Al-Qaeda.

My understanding has been that the Taliban were hosting Al-Qaeda and that they were uncooperative in regards to U.S. calls to hand over Bin Laden who openly accepted responsibility for the 9/11 attacks. That was why we invaded Afghanistan. Running up to the invasion I was against it, but in the intervening years, unlike my anti-Iraq war position, my attitude has softened and I no longer think it was unreasonable given that Al-Qaeda had committed an act of war against the U.S. and the Afghanistan Taliban were enabling Al-Qaeda.
Not exactly:
The Taliban … refused to hand over bin Laden without proof or evidence that he was involved in last week’s attacks on the United States. … The Taliban ambassador to Pakistan … said Friday that deporting him without proof would amount to an “insult to Islam.” (emphasis added)
CNN also provided an explanation for the Taliban’s “refusal,” reporting: “Bin Laden himself has already denied he had anything to do with the attacks, and Taliban officials repeatedly said he could not have been involved in the attacks.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5
"The Taliban would be ready to discuss handing over Osama bin Laden to a neutral country if the US halted the bombing of Afghanistan, a senior Taliban official said today.

Afghanistan's deputy prime minister, Haji Abdul Kabir, told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US.

"If the Taliban is given evidence that Osama bin Laden is involved" and the bombing campaign stopped, "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country", Mr Kabir added."

Okay, so not as clear cut as I remembered.

Even so, I don't think it unreasonable to assume that the Taliban were merely stalling and had no intention of ever handing Bin Laden and associates over. I think the U.S. leadership realized this early on. Unlike Iraq, I'm willing to give our leadership the benefit of the doubt here. I just don't see that there was any strategic interest or pent up neocon ambition to invade Afghanistan (as there was to invade Iraq) other than to get Bin Laden.



 think the intervening years have for the most part validated Bin Laden's involvement as well as the a reasonable expectation that the Taliban were stalling and would have never handed him over,
I agree with on your first statement but not your second.  Nor do I think it is right to expect the Taliban to fly in the face of international standards and not require proof (which we did not have) to extradite someone.  I think the intervening years have for the most part shown that we should not give the Bush administration the benefit of the doubt especially given:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/mar/24/september11.usa2
"The report drawn up by the commission's staff said: "From the spring of 1997 to September 2001, the US government tried to persuade the Taliban to expel Bin Laden to a country where he could face justice. The efforts employed inducements, warnings and sanctions. All these efforts failed."

At a meeting of the Bush administration's top national security officials on September 10, a three-phase strategy was agreed.

The Taliban would be presented with a final ultimatum to hand over Bin Laden. Failing that, covert military aid would be channelled to anti-Taliban groups. If both those options failed, "the deputies agreed that the United States would seek to overthrow the Taliban regime through more direct action.""
Looks to me that they were looking for an excuse.

dramaman

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #343 on: January 28, 2016, 03:00:27 PM »

My prediction is that if in his first month in office President Trump ordered the U.S. military to invade and occupy Iran, all of the military people posting in this thread would salute and march off to do what they were told, and I'm sorry but that makes me feel physically ill.

Whereas I wish Trump had served in the military. He'd probably be a lot more grounded, sane, and less likely to start a crazy foreign war. As for saluting and marching off to do what we are told, I'm not sure that makes sense. Joining the military doesn't mean you turn off your brain. I drove around base w/ a Kerry bumpersticker and criticized Bush and the invasion of Iraq my entire time in the military.

I never personally had an issue with the invasion of Afghanistan and I'm not sure "No Good Reason" is going to hold up with anyone who has had any connection with the 9/11 attacks. If we'd stayed in Afghanistan instead of starting a second war, I think there would be a lot less criticism of the US Military both globally and domestically.
I have heard quite a few arguments against the invasion of Afgahanistan, would you mind detailing what good reason you think we have for invading another country? 

I'd like to hear a take on this too, considering that the Taliban were not  Al-Qaeda.

My understanding has been that the Taliban were hosting Al-Qaeda and that they were uncooperative in regards to U.S. calls to hand over Bin Laden who openly accepted responsibility for the 9/11 attacks. That was why we invaded Afghanistan. Running up to the invasion I was against it, but in the intervening years, unlike my anti-Iraq war position, my attitude has softened and I no longer think it was unreasonable given that Al-Qaeda had committed an act of war against the U.S. and the Afghanistan Taliban were enabling Al-Qaeda.
Not exactly:
The Taliban … refused to hand over bin Laden without proof or evidence that he was involved in last week’s attacks on the United States. … The Taliban ambassador to Pakistan … said Friday that deporting him without proof would amount to an “insult to Islam.” (emphasis added)
CNN also provided an explanation for the Taliban’s “refusal,” reporting: “Bin Laden himself has already denied he had anything to do with the attacks, and Taliban officials repeatedly said he could not have been involved in the attacks.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5
"The Taliban would be ready to discuss handing over Osama bin Laden to a neutral country if the US halted the bombing of Afghanistan, a senior Taliban official said today.

Afghanistan's deputy prime minister, Haji Abdul Kabir, told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US.

"If the Taliban is given evidence that Osama bin Laden is involved" and the bombing campaign stopped, "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country", Mr Kabir added."

Okay, so not as clear cut as I remembered.

Even so, I don't think it unreasonable to assume that the Taliban were merely stalling and had no intention of ever handing Bin Laden and associates over. I think the U.S. leadership realized this early on. Unlike Iraq, I'm willing to give our leadership the benefit of the doubt here. I just don't see that there was any strategic interest or pent up neocon ambition to invade Afghanistan (as there was to invade Iraq) other than to get Bin Laden.



 think the intervening years have for the most part validated Bin Laden's involvement as well as the a reasonable expectation that the Taliban were stalling and would have never handed him over,
I agree with on your first statement but not your second.  Nor do I think it is right to expect the Taliban to fly in the face of international standards and not require proof (which we did not have) to extradite someone.  I think the intervening years have for the most part shown that we should not give the Bush administration the benefit of the doubt especially given:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/mar/24/september11.usa2
"The report drawn up by the commission's staff said: "From the spring of 1997 to September 2001, the US government tried to persuade the Taliban to expel Bin Laden to a country where he could face justice. The efforts employed inducements, warnings and sanctions. All these efforts failed."

At a meeting of the Bush administration's top national security officials on September 10, a three-phase strategy was agreed.

The Taliban would be presented with a final ultimatum to hand over Bin Laden. Failing that, covert military aid would be channelled to anti-Taliban groups. If both those options failed, "the deputies agreed that the United States would seek to overthrow the Taliban regime through more direct action.""
Looks to me that they were looking for an excuse.

Everything you write may be very much the truth and I certainly wouldn't put it past some of the Bush Administration neocons. Even so, Bin Laden declared war on the U.S. in 1996, followed by multiple terrorist attacks over the years, culminating in 9/11. Now unless you want to go down the rabbit hole of arguing that 9/11 was NOT the responsibility of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, I still can't fault the decision to invade Afghanistan to get Bin Laden after they destroy the Twin Towers, attack the Pentagon and kill thousands of people. There was no reason to think the Taliban were ever going to cooperate.  Sorry, but I just can't find a fault with the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan in the same way I do the invasion of Iraq.

Gin1984

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #344 on: January 28, 2016, 03:07:24 PM »

My prediction is that if in his first month in office President Trump ordered the U.S. military to invade and occupy Iran, all of the military people posting in this thread would salute and march off to do what they were told, and I'm sorry but that makes me feel physically ill.

Whereas I wish Trump had served in the military. He'd probably be a lot more grounded, sane, and less likely to start a crazy foreign war. As for saluting and marching off to do what we are told, I'm not sure that makes sense. Joining the military doesn't mean you turn off your brain. I drove around base w/ a Kerry bumpersticker and criticized Bush and the invasion of Iraq my entire time in the military.

I never personally had an issue with the invasion of Afghanistan and I'm not sure "No Good Reason" is going to hold up with anyone who has had any connection with the 9/11 attacks. If we'd stayed in Afghanistan instead of starting a second war, I think there would be a lot less criticism of the US Military both globally and domestically.
I have heard quite a few arguments against the invasion of Afgahanistan, would you mind detailing what good reason you think we have for invading another country? 

I'd like to hear a take on this too, considering that the Taliban were not  Al-Qaeda.

My understanding has been that the Taliban were hosting Al-Qaeda and that they were uncooperative in regards to U.S. calls to hand over Bin Laden who openly accepted responsibility for the 9/11 attacks. That was why we invaded Afghanistan. Running up to the invasion I was against it, but in the intervening years, unlike my anti-Iraq war position, my attitude has softened and I no longer think it was unreasonable given that Al-Qaeda had committed an act of war against the U.S. and the Afghanistan Taliban were enabling Al-Qaeda.
Not exactly:
The Taliban … refused to hand over bin Laden without proof or evidence that he was involved in last week’s attacks on the United States. … The Taliban ambassador to Pakistan … said Friday that deporting him without proof would amount to an “insult to Islam.” (emphasis added)
CNN also provided an explanation for the Taliban’s “refusal,” reporting: “Bin Laden himself has already denied he had anything to do with the attacks, and Taliban officials repeatedly said he could not have been involved in the attacks.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5
"The Taliban would be ready to discuss handing over Osama bin Laden to a neutral country if the US halted the bombing of Afghanistan, a senior Taliban official said today.

Afghanistan's deputy prime minister, Haji Abdul Kabir, told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US.

"If the Taliban is given evidence that Osama bin Laden is involved" and the bombing campaign stopped, "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country", Mr Kabir added."

Okay, so not as clear cut as I remembered.

Even so, I don't think it unreasonable to assume that the Taliban were merely stalling and had no intention of ever handing Bin Laden and associates over. I think the U.S. leadership realized this early on. Unlike Iraq, I'm willing to give our leadership the benefit of the doubt here. I just don't see that there was any strategic interest or pent up neocon ambition to invade Afghanistan (as there was to invade Iraq) other than to get Bin Laden.



 think the intervening years have for the most part validated Bin Laden's involvement as well as the a reasonable expectation that the Taliban were stalling and would have never handed him over,
I agree with on your first statement but not your second.  Nor do I think it is right to expect the Taliban to fly in the face of international standards and not require proof (which we did not have) to extradite someone.  I think the intervening years have for the most part shown that we should not give the Bush administration the benefit of the doubt especially given:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/mar/24/september11.usa2
"The report drawn up by the commission's staff said: "From the spring of 1997 to September 2001, the US government tried to persuade the Taliban to expel Bin Laden to a country where he could face justice. The efforts employed inducements, warnings and sanctions. All these efforts failed."

At a meeting of the Bush administration's top national security officials on September 10, a three-phase strategy was agreed.

The Taliban would be presented with a final ultimatum to hand over Bin Laden. Failing that, covert military aid would be channelled to anti-Taliban groups. If both those options failed, "the deputies agreed that the United States would seek to overthrow the Taliban regime through more direct action.""
Looks to me that they were looking for an excuse.

Everything you write may be very much the truth and I certainly wouldn't put it past some of the Bush Administration neocons. Even so, Bin Laden declared war on the U.S. in 1996, followed by multiple terrorist attacks over the years, culminating in 9/11. Now unless you want to go down the rabbit hole of arguing that 9/11 was NOT the responsibility of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, I still can't fault the decision to invade Afghanistan to get Bin Laden after they destroy the Twin Towers, attack the Pentagon and kill thousands of people. There was no reason to think the Taliban were ever going to cooperate.  Sorry, but I just can't find a fault with the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan in the same way I do the invasion of Iraq.
I am not arguing that he was not responsible, I am saying why would we not have proof?  And why should they cooperate without proof? Why do you see the actions of the Taliban as stalling vs acting as a responsible state and requiring proof?  And if we had proof, what could it have harmed to show that proof to the Taliban?  Then there would be no argument on invading.

Vilgan

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #345 on: January 28, 2016, 03:28:15 PM »

I am not arguing that he was not responsible, I am saying why would we not have proof?  And why should they cooperate without proof? Why do you see the actions of the Taliban as stalling vs acting as a responsible state and requiring proof?  And if we had proof, what could it have harmed to show that proof to the Taliban?  Then there would be no argument on invading.

This seems absurd. Do you remember the sentiment at the time? Osama attacked the US, on its own soil, in multiple locations. Public approval for invasion was 90+%. When was the last time there was 90% approval for anything military related? Bush's handling of everything into the invasion jumped his approval ratings from the doldrums to some of the highest in history.

Then the Taliban wants to muck around with "show us the proof!". Really? If they were a legit government that disapproved of an action of this magnitude orchestrated on their own soil, they would move heaven and earth to at the very least apprehend Osama and attempt to calm the situation back down. Instead they bothered with "where's the proof?" nonsense. Actions have consequences. Osama's actions had clear consequences, and the Taliban's own choices during this time had consequences of its own.

Had the US kept their focus on Afghanistan and Osama instead of diverting to Iraq and captured Osama in a timely manner and then focused on getting out of Afghanistan there would be almost no debate about this and approval ratings of the decision to invade would still likely be 90+%. The only reason even debating this is not absurd today is because of what decisions were made AFTER the decision to invade.

GuitarStv

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #346 on: January 28, 2016, 05:44:27 PM »

I am not arguing that he was not responsible, I am saying why would we not have proof?  And why should they cooperate without proof? Why do you see the actions of the Taliban as stalling vs acting as a responsible state and requiring proof?  And if we had proof, what could it have harmed to show that proof to the Taliban?  Then there would be no argument on invading.

This seems absurd. Do you remember the sentiment at the time? Osama attacked the US, on its own soil, in multiple locations. Public approval for invasion was 90+%. When was the last time there was 90% approval for anything military related? Bush's handling of everything into the invasion jumped his approval ratings from the doldrums to some of the highest in history.

72% of Americans supported the war in Iraq too . . . (http://www.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx).  Invading Iraq jumped his approval ratings.  Initially.  Basing military decisions on what largely ignorant people happen to support at the moment doesn't always (ever?) make for good policy.


It's kinda interesting that Osama ended up living in northern Pakistan for so many years, but no attempt to invade Pakistan was made.  No sanctions or issues
Then the Taliban wants to muck around with "show us the proof!". Really? If they were a legit government that disapproved of an action of this magnitude orchestrated on their own soil, they would move heaven and earth to at the very least apprehend Osama and attempt to calm the situation back down. Instead they bothered with "where's the proof?" nonsense. Actions have consequences. Osama's actions had clear consequences, and the Taliban's own choices during this time had consequences of its own.

FWIW, I suspect that the Taliban would have had trouble actually finding and then capturing Osama to hand over, so request for proof was largely a delaying tactic on their part.  Unfortunately, none of us will ever know if that was the case.  That said, the whole 'judge people before you have proof because that's silly nonsense' mindset is what led to Guantanamo Bay and the many innocent people held and tortured there.


Had the US kept their focus on Afghanistan and Osama instead of diverting to Iraq and captured Osama in a timely manner and then focused on getting out of Afghanistan there would be almost no debate about this and approval ratings of the decision to invade would still likely be 90+%. The only reason even debating this is not absurd today is because of what decisions were made AFTER the decision to invade.

Had the US kept their focus on Afghanistan they never would have found Osama.  He was in northern Pakistan, remember?

Kriegsspiel

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #347 on: January 28, 2016, 06:21:20 PM »
It's heartening to know that we aren't sending these poor fucks to Guantanamo anymore. Destroying them in place prevents a lot of unpleasantness. For them, for us, for everyone, really. It's the right policy.

Yaeger

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #348 on: January 28, 2016, 07:23:36 PM »
I'm starting to feel like the people that sound anti-military here, aren't really anti-military. They're mostly anti-government. The military doesn't decide to invade Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, etc. The military doesn't decide to stay there, how many troops are there, what equipment they bring, what funding they have to build and support the local population. The military does NONE of that.

All of these points are points you need to make to the politicians that control the military, Democrat and Republican. The same people that manage your healthcare, education, welfare, social security programs also run the military. Direct your anger, hate, incrimination at the people responsible. There's blood on your hands supporting a government that orders troops to do this, and it's across both parties.

dramaman

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Re: Why do so few people consider military paying for college?
« Reply #349 on: January 28, 2016, 08:45:03 PM »
It's kinda interesting that Osama ended up living in northern Pakistan for so many years, but no attempt to invade Pakistan was made.  No sanctions or issues

Well, Pakistan has nuclear weapons, which might limit exactly how far the U.S. could go. On the other hand, I've read the U.S. pretty much threatened to bomb Pakistan back into the stone age if Pakistan didn't cooperate and for a time did receive cooperation. It didn't ultimately get us Bin Laden (at least not very quickly), but it did coerce Pakistan, unlike the Taliban, to capitulate to a number of conditions.

Then the Taliban wants to muck around with "show us the proof!". Really? If they were a legit government that disapproved of an action of this magnitude orchestrated on their own soil, they would move heaven and earth to at the very least apprehend Osama and attempt to calm the situation back down. Instead they bothered with "where's the proof?" nonsense. Actions have consequences. Osama's actions had clear consequences, and the Taliban's own choices during this time had consequences of its own.

FWIW, I suspect that the Taliban would have had trouble actually finding and then capturing Osama to hand over, so request for proof was largely a delaying tactic on their part.  Unfortunately, none of us will ever know if that was the case.  That said, the whole 'judge people before you have proof because that's silly nonsense' mindset is what led to Guantanamo Bay and the many innocent people held and tortured there.

I don't doubt the Taliban would have had trouble getting their own people to surrender Bin Laden. It just wasn't in their nature to surrender someone who they thought of as a hero for giving the bad ol' U.S. a bloody nose. But that also is consistent with the notion that they would never have cooperated and were not negotiating in good faith. I think the U.S. diplomats realized this and it was determined that armed conflict would be the only way to get Bin Laden. Incidentally that is the very purpose of war -- to achieve objectives that cannot be achieved via diplomacy. Prior to 9/11 it wasn't worth going to war to get Bin Laden. After 9/11, the American people wanted to get Bin Laden so badly that going to war was no problem. Bush did not have to sell the Afghanistan invasion like the way he had to sell the Iraq invasion.