Author Topic: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?  (Read 27645 times)

MudPuppy

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #250 on: July 28, 2020, 10:29:00 AM »
Quote
average salaries of nurses and teachers in the US, they are competitive


Out of curiosity, I checked and Glassdoor would tend to agree with you in my state.

teacher salary: 31k-51k

RN salary: 37k-64k

LPN salary: 32k-47k

Shane

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #251 on: July 28, 2020, 10:35:40 AM »
Apparently, both nurses' and teachers' salaries vary widely, depending on location. One friend who recently graduated from nursing school and started at her first job as an RN is making $45/hr, so $90K/year, not counting overtime. Another RN we know, who also recently finished nursing school and is now working at her first job, told us she was earning $40/hr, i.e., $80K/year, not including overtime. Teachers in the same state start at about half that salary.

FIence!

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #252 on: July 28, 2020, 11:16:39 AM »
Apparently, both nurses' and teachers' salaries vary widely, depending on location. One friend who recently graduated from nursing school and started at her first job as an RN is making $45/hr, so $90K/year, not counting overtime. Another RN we know, who also recently finished nursing school and is now working at her first job, told us she was earning $40/hr, i.e., $80K/year, not including overtime. Teachers in the same state start at about half that salary.

Well, yeah, isn't that true of many professions? A software developer in South Dakota doesn't make the same as a developer in Seattle. This appears to be true on the micro level as well: According to glassdoor, RN salaries in PA (which you have as your location) typically range from 42k-73k per year. LPN salaries in PA are more in the 30s. Glassdoor says teacher salaries in PA range from 33k-57k. Keep in mind that the nurses salary is for all months of the year being worked full time while a teacher in most cases works about 80% of the year full time.

The cousin I mentioned actually lived in PA. She worked for a nursing home that closed relatively abruptly, then worked through an agency for $20/hr. with no benefits because she was "per diem." (She is an LPN, not an RN.)

mm1970

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #253 on: July 28, 2020, 11:24:11 AM »
Nurses where I live make significantly more than teachers.  20-80% more, for the same level of education (BS, master's) and same number of years of experience.

mm1970

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #254 on: July 28, 2020, 11:38:57 AM »
Teachers in general, I have no problem with. I think they're great. The particular teacher we had last year put forth astonishingly little effort on the whole online learning thing during the latter portion of the previous school year. I think for the last five weeks, the totality of the work she assigned was the same worksheet with five different vocabulary words each week. That plus twenty minutes of morning meetings with all the kids was the extent of her work.

Now, I'm willing to admit that it's possible I'm missing an enormous behind the scenes effort. But it felt to me like she had just given up. I've heard a lot of similar stories from other parents of young children. I would be willing to be convinced this was a rare phenomenon but the data I've been exposed to suggests it was not particularly rare. And so I'm a little skeptical when the teachers/schools tell us that online learning can work. If four months wasn't enough to figure it out, how am I to trust that the summer is going to have been enough to make things different?

That being said, do teachers have the right to do what is best for their own safety? Of course. Everyone should employ the power they have to change the world for their own best interest, at least up to a reasonable point. But I can't help think that if the schools had done a better job in the Spring, there wouldn't be so much angst about what is going to happen this Fall.

That does not excuse online vitriol against the teachers. I'm not involved in that and I'll 100% call it out when I see it. But I hope it explains some of my personal ambivalence toward online learning this Fall. I'd prefer if the kids were back in school, personally.

This was not our experience.  Our second grader's teacher was in her last few months (it was 3, not four) before retirement.  She taught a combo 2nd / 3rd grade.  She did two 90-minute sessions with each grade each week, and assigned quite a bit of homework.  She reviewed the work in class every period, did reading out loud over zoom, and had these 2nd graders doing some 3rd grade math.  What a way to go out.  I'd say that my junior high kid, all of the teachers except 1 were really on it also.  Keep in mind that for some of these teachers - they had to learn new tech pretty quickly.  (The second grade teacher was 62 yo).

They may have only done 2 classes a week with each student (the district sent out schedules for the end of the year for junior high and high school, for each period), but they were also pre-taping classes to put into YouTube and still grading homework. My JH kid was in advanced math, and he really liked the online classes because the teacher had to really explain things on video in a way that he didn't have to in person.

Quote
+1  I suspect this was the experience of most families during spring shutdown and not the exception.   But again I think its reasonable to give a "Pass" on some of this do to the extenuating experiences and that most school districts, teachers and families were not equipped for this.   But its been 6 months now so there is no excusing not being prepared for some combination of in school / online learning.   

For fucks sake, how hard is to prop a laptop infront of teacher for those students that can't return to in school setting and do a hybrid - every fucking business in the world is doing it.

I can't speak for all school districts, but I know ours has put a LOT of work into this over the summer.  They have made THREE separate back to school plans (fully remote, fully on site, and hybrid). In order to do this, they have coordinated ALL THE THINGS and made 3 separate budgets.
- Purchased masks and face shields for every student and teacher
- Purchased cleaning supplies, wipes, hand sanitizer
- Budgeted the costs of additional cleaning
- Budgeted the costs of additional teachers to reduce class sizes to allow >6 ft per student
- Purchased 84 tents to allow for outdoor classrooms
- Increased transportation to allow for social distancing on the bus
- Purchased no-touch thermometers and counter partitians
- Increased the distribution of district iPads to include 2nd and 3rd graders
- Adopted multiple schedules to allow for online learning AND a 90 min lunch break to give students time to walk/bike to their local school to get free lunch (most of our students are poor)
- Purchased enough hot spots to allow all students to have internet, and upgraded the hotspots to work with all 3 major carriers
- Worked with our one and only internet company to get free internet to families who cannot afford it
- Selected a set of software so that everyone is consistent - homework assignments and turning in homework will be the same for all students in all grades (this was not the case at the end of the year).  Video calls will be using the same program. 
- Professional development around distance learning
- additional instructional materials
- Have been working with partners to fill in the gaps for parents who have to work outside the home with small children.  Finding spaces where small groups can do distance learning during the day.

Recognize that the cost to go back full time is about $10M.   Hybrid is more like $4M and fully remote is $2.5M.  They have worked through ALL of these plans, and the governor has required full remote until we are off the bad list.


Shane

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #255 on: July 28, 2020, 11:42:29 AM »
Apparently, both nurses' and teachers' salaries vary widely, depending on location. One friend who recently graduated from nursing school and started at her first job as an RN is making $45/hr, so $90K/year, not counting overtime. Another RN we know, who also recently finished nursing school and is now working at her first job, told us she was earning $40/hr, i.e., $80K/year, not including overtime. Teachers in the same state start at about half that salary.

Well, yeah, isn't that true of many professions? A software developer in South Dakota doesn't make the same as a developer in Seattle. This appears to be true on the micro level as well: According to glassdoor, RN salaries in PA (which you have as your location) typically range from 42k-73k per year. LPN salaries in PA are more in the 30s. Glassdoor says teacher salaries in PA range from 33k-57k. Keep in mind that the nurses salary is for all months of the year being worked full time while a teacher in most cases works about 80% of the year full time.

The cousin I mentioned actually lived in PA. She worked for a nursing home that closed relatively abruptly, then worked through an agency for $20/hr. with no benefits because she was "per diem." (She is an LPN, not an RN.)

The examples of salaries for nurses and teachers I mentioned were all from Hawaii, where we lived for most of my adult life. Just recently moved to PA, so not familiar with pay rates here, yet.

tooqk4u22

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #256 on: July 28, 2020, 12:09:03 PM »
Meanwhile, I’m just gonna leave this here. Covid hospitalizations of children have risen 23% in Florida.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/27/health/florida-covid-children-hospitalizations/index.html

This is the kind of statistical nonsense that drives me nuts.   Spew out one number with no context or other relevant details.  The 23% number above is accurate as referenced in the article but other  figures that give a better picture include cases among children had risen 34% from 23,170 to 31,150 while hospitalizations rose at a slower rate of 23% and equated to a an increase of 57 children or 0.71% of the increased cases. 

To be honest, you chose the wrong number to support your side because the number is so small relative to the population.  You should have focused on the fact that there are an additional 7,980 children that are positive for covid (likely asymptomatic) that if schools were open today would be permeating amongst teachers. 

I will ignore for the moment that Florida is and has been an example of stupidity throughout all of this both in terms of its leadership and population.

I shared the article that gave this information. Not sure how that is “spewing out nonsense.”

Because you specifically referenced a single data point with the intention of supporting your case for elevated concerns, otherwise why just cite a single figure.  Whereas if you were more sincere about it you would have just posted the article and said something like "See this article, I don't like it"   

tooqk4u22

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #257 on: July 28, 2020, 12:13:25 PM »

+1  I suspect this was the experience of most families during spring shutdown and not the exception.   But again I think its reasonable to give a "Pass" on some of this do to the extenuating experiences and that most school districts, teachers and families were not equipped for this.   But its been 6 months now so there is no excusing not being prepared for some combination of in school / online learning.   

For fucks sake, how hard is to prop a laptop infront of teacher for those students that can't return to in school setting and do a hybrid - every fucking business in the world is doing it.

I agree there is no excuse...but what about the schools, or just parts of a school, that have not used the time wisely and prepped for various outcomes. It will be hard for parents to 1) know that, and 2) react quickly.

The more I read and hear the more it seems like there is going to be a wide range of outcomes. A little like my area of my company: the gap between high and low performers seemed to increase when we were all sent home to work.

I agree, its a concern and a shame that some districts might not have prepped accordingly.   Mine might be one of them, but that doesn't mean I want to ignore it and give them a pass.  They then would need to be held accountable somehow (as if, given that we really don't have any say like any other government bs)

Kris

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #258 on: July 28, 2020, 12:19:04 PM »
Meanwhile, I’m just gonna leave this here. Covid hospitalizations of children have risen 23% in Florida.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/27/health/florida-covid-children-hospitalizations/index.html

This is the kind of statistical nonsense that drives me nuts.   Spew out one number with no context or other relevant details.  The 23% number above is accurate as referenced in the article but other  figures that give a better picture include cases among children had risen 34% from 23,170 to 31,150 while hospitalizations rose at a slower rate of 23% and equated to a an increase of 57 children or 0.71% of the increased cases. 

To be honest, you chose the wrong number to support your side because the number is so small relative to the population.  You should have focused on the fact that there are an additional 7,980 children that are positive for covid (likely asymptomatic) that if schools were open today would be permeating amongst teachers. 

I will ignore for the moment that Florida is and has been an example of stupidity throughout all of this both in terms of its leadership and population.

I shared the article that gave this information. Not sure how that is “spewing out nonsense.”

Because you specifically referenced a single data point with the intention of supporting your case for elevated concerns, otherwise why just cite a single figure.  Whereas if you were more sincere about it you would have just posted the article and said something like "See this article, I don't like it"

The figure I cited was the title of the article.

Also, if I wanted to reference only a single data point with the intention of supporting my case, I would have just cited the figure, and not posted the article.

obstinate

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #259 on: July 28, 2020, 12:40:01 PM »
Nurses where I live make significantly more than teachers.  20-80% more, for the same level of education (BS, master's) and same number of years of experience.
Garbage collectors make more than both, with less education. And probably the average art history major can't even get a job in their field, to say nothing of getting paid as much as a teacher or a nurse. Salary isn't solely or even mostly determined by how long you go to school for a given profession.

HenryDavid

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #260 on: July 29, 2020, 06:44:21 AM »
In Canada “hatred for teachers” has been deliberately cultivated for 40 years by anti-union media.
Because as GuitarStv says “most people are idiots” I really don’t think the anti-teacher venom I see came spontaneously from their own thoughts. Talk radio, right wing papers, the internet.

Kris

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #261 on: July 29, 2020, 06:51:07 AM »
In Canada “hatred for teachers” has been deliberately cultivated for 40 years by anti-union media.
Because as GuitarStv says “most people are idiots” I really don’t think the anti-teacher venom I see came spontaneously from their own thoughts. Talk radio, right wing papers, the internet.

In the US, as well.

Just Joe

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #262 on: July 30, 2020, 02:36:01 PM »
Nurses where I live make significantly more than teachers.  20-80% more, for the same level of education (BS, master's) and same number of years of experience.

...and teachers also usually get a pension. RN's probably not.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 02:38:14 PM by Just Joe »

skp

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #263 on: July 30, 2020, 02:52:04 PM »
Nurses where I live make significantly more than teachers.  20-80% more, for the same level of education (BS, master's) and same number of years of experience.

...and teachers also usually get a pension. RN's probably not.
Don't forget to add subsidized (to varying degrees I suppose) health insurance in retirement.  I (an RN) get zero.
I'd say Nurses salaries start out higher than teachers. But I don't think RN wages increase as much with experience as teachers. 
We also work night shifts, weekends, and holidays. 
I do get retirement, but due to covid, currently, our 401K match is suspended.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 03:02:31 PM by skp »

fuzzy math

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #264 on: July 30, 2020, 05:09:33 PM »
People are pissed at teachers because they want a good value for the money they pay in school taxes.

School teachers should make a sacrifice and go teach the kids, that is the profession they chose. If they don't like it they can change it.

We ask for sacrifice from doctors, dentists, nurses, and all essential workers, many of which were in the trenches with no protective equipment, and some of whom died.

I don't see why teachers should have a preferential treatment.
If they don't want to go back to work, quit, but don't live on my tax dollars, staying home.
we will replace the missing teachers with kahnacademy.org or something like that, and increase the salary of the one that stick around. that's what I would do
My doctor makes $240k a year, the nurses here $100k, my dentist somewhere between there.

The 3rd grade teacher makes $55k.

Where I live nurses max out at $24 / hr = $50k
Teachers start at $37k and the scale maxes at about $60k
What you're saying is not universal in most of the country. Most LCOL areas have reasonable max teacher salaries and extremely poor RN salaries. I was shocked when I moved here.


fuzzy math

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #265 on: July 30, 2020, 05:29:59 PM »
I was very upset this spring when our school district announced for spring learning that teachers only had to have office hours from 8 - 10 am because many of them had their kids at home. Meanwhile I was an essential worker (hospital) and my husband was allowed to work remotely but still expected to put in 40 hours. Neither of us had the balls to tell our employer we were only available from 8 - 10 am.

In this thread, I've heard that because I'm a healthcare worker I should have expected to sign up to be around sick people. In my specialty I rarely deal with infectious people. In many specialties, healthcare workers have those same expectations (dentistry, dermatology, orthopedics). Meanwhile if someone were to ask the general public what careers are most likely to have people sick and vomiting around them, I'd expect to hear healthcare workers and teachers (going to mention obligatory drunk people bartender comments, but i'm talking purely about SICK PEOPLE). So its a complete fallacy that teachers have been working all this time unaware that children frequently become sick at school (or go to school sick for whatever reason). "I didn't sign up for this!!!" is not a reason enough to disregard the needs of millions unless that individual is willing to put their money where their mouth is and quit their job.

Kris

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #266 on: July 30, 2020, 05:48:42 PM »
I was very upset this spring when our school district announced for spring learning that teachers only had to have office hours from 8 - 10 am because many of them had their kids at home. Meanwhile I was an essential worker (hospital) and my husband was allowed to work remotely but still expected to put in 40 hours. Neither of us had the balls to tell our employer we were only available from 8 - 10 am.

In this thread, I've heard that because I'm a healthcare worker I should have expected to sign up to be around sick people. In my specialty I rarely deal with infectious people. In many specialties, healthcare workers have those same expectations (dentistry, dermatology, orthopedics). Meanwhile if someone were to ask the general public what careers are most likely to have people sick and vomiting around them, I'd expect to hear healthcare workers and teachers (going to mention obligatory drunk people bartender comments, but i'm talking purely about SICK PEOPLE). So its a complete fallacy that teachers have been working all this time unaware that children frequently become sick at school (or go to school sick for whatever reason). "I didn't sign up for this!!!" is not a reason enough to disregard the needs of millions unless that individual is willing to put their money where their mouth is and quit their job.

If you think your working conditions are crap...

Demanding that other people also have crap working conditions will not solve the problem.

fuzzy math

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #267 on: July 30, 2020, 05:54:49 PM »
I was very upset this spring when our school district announced for spring learning that teachers only had to have office hours from 8 - 10 am because many of them had their kids at home. Meanwhile I was an essential worker (hospital) and my husband was allowed to work remotely but still expected to put in 40 hours. Neither of us had the balls to tell our employer we were only available from 8 - 10 am.

In this thread, I've heard that because I'm a healthcare worker I should have expected to sign up to be around sick people. In my specialty I rarely deal with infectious people. In many specialties, healthcare workers have those same expectations (dentistry, dermatology, orthopedics). Meanwhile if someone were to ask the general public what careers are most likely to have people sick and vomiting around them, I'd expect to hear healthcare workers and teachers (going to mention obligatory drunk people bartender comments, but i'm talking purely about SICK PEOPLE). So its a complete fallacy that teachers have been working all this time unaware that children frequently become sick at school (or go to school sick for whatever reason). "I didn't sign up for this!!!" is not a reason enough to disregard the needs of millions unless that individual is willing to put their money where their mouth is and quit their job.

If you think your working conditions are crap...

Demanding that other people also have crap working conditions will not solve the problem.

Did I say my working conditions were crap?
No I said I think its complete crap that the school district told us that teacher's children's needs meant that my children's needs could just fuck right off.

mm1970

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #268 on: July 30, 2020, 05:56:16 PM »
I was very upset this spring when our school district announced for spring learning that teachers only had to have office hours from 8 - 10 am because many of them had their kids at home. Meanwhile I was an essential worker (hospital) and my husband was allowed to work remotely but still expected to put in 40 hours. Neither of us had the balls to tell our employer we were only available from 8 - 10 am.

In this thread, I've heard that because I'm a healthcare worker I should have expected to sign up to be around sick people. In my specialty I rarely deal with infectious people. In many specialties, healthcare workers have those same expectations (dentistry, dermatology, orthopedics). Meanwhile if someone were to ask the general public what careers are most likely to have people sick and vomiting around them, I'd expect to hear healthcare workers and teachers (going to mention obligatory drunk people bartender comments, but i'm talking purely about SICK PEOPLE). So its a complete fallacy that teachers have been working all this time unaware that children frequently become sick at school (or go to school sick for whatever reason). "I didn't sign up for this!!!" is not a reason enough to disregard the needs of millions unless that individual is willing to put their money where their mouth is and quit their job.
What Kris said plus:
- my dentist was closed for months. 
- Our doctors are still only doing teledoc appointments
- our clinic has shut down non-emergency work (no mammograms, for example).  Although they may start up again soon.

Why? Because COVID can kill.

Dealing with possible sick students and dealing with a disease that can kill you are not equivalent.

fuzzy math

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #269 on: July 30, 2020, 06:33:50 PM »
I was very upset this spring when our school district announced for spring learning that teachers only had to have office hours from 8 - 10 am because many of them had their kids at home. Meanwhile I was an essential worker (hospital) and my husband was allowed to work remotely but still expected to put in 40 hours. Neither of us had the balls to tell our employer we were only available from 8 - 10 am.

In this thread, I've heard that because I'm a healthcare worker I should have expected to sign up to be around sick people. In my specialty I rarely deal with infectious people. In many specialties, healthcare workers have those same expectations (dentistry, dermatology, orthopedics). Meanwhile if someone were to ask the general public what careers are most likely to have people sick and vomiting around them, I'd expect to hear healthcare workers and teachers (going to mention obligatory drunk people bartender comments, but i'm talking purely about SICK PEOPLE). So its a complete fallacy that teachers have been working all this time unaware that children frequently become sick at school (or go to school sick for whatever reason). "I didn't sign up for this!!!" is not a reason enough to disregard the needs of millions unless that individual is willing to put their money where their mouth is and quit their job.
What Kris said plus:
- my dentist was closed for months. 
- Our doctors are still only doing teledoc appointments
- our clinic has shut down non-emergency work (no mammograms, for example).  Although they may start up again soon.

Why? Because COVID can kill.

Dealing with possible sick students and dealing with a disease that can kill you are not equivalent.

Did I deny that COVID can kill? Which one of us has had to pull a COVID patient off life support while watching family members cry through face shields? You? No, that was me.

Working with critically ill patients is something I deal with but rarely are they infectious. I wouldn't say that I signed up to be around infectious patients any more than teachers signed up to be around sick kids. Does it happen? Of course. Are there childhood illnesses that can be more serious to adults? Of course. Should a teacher who is severely immunocompromised be around a class of 30 children even in non COVID times? Probably not.

My service was downgraded to emergency only but the vast majority of my patients are emergency so my workload didn't drop much. Many dentists were open for emergency work during the shut down. My dentist has been open since May. My hospital has been doing elective procedures since the end of April. Family members are allowed to visit (in limited numbers unless OB or end of life). Most clinic visits here are in person now, but telehealth is available for those who prefer it. I'm aware that you're in CA, what happens there is not what is happening everywhere.

There's been a fair amount of COVID and suspected COVID quarantines at my work. Surprisingly none of them are transmission from patients. Most of the exposures went on to be negative, and most of the positives were asymptomatic / mildly symptomatic. The only serious case I know of was in a 70 something yr old physician who took a vacation to AZ in June. I took a sly photo of the CEO of my hospital not wearing a mask the other day. I can tell you that outside of the COVID ward, people are going about in their lives. Large amounts of people are eating in the cafeterias and lounges together because there's nowhere else to eat, despite bullshit signs saying there's only 11 people allowed for a dept that has 150 people. Heck even in the COVID ward where about half of the patients are on ventilators (closed system, no aerosolized transmission possible), I've seen doctors in that unit in their street clothes and no mask, only put on protective gear when entering the room. What I've not seen is people freaking the fuck out, quitting, or refusing to eat, drink or be near others because its too scary. Most of us have gotten on with our lives because we realize this disease is something we have to live with and adapt to, we recognize the inherent risks in being alive and we've seen death enough that we realize its a part of the life cycle. For someone who's never seen someone die, doesn't have anyone close to them who has ever died, and has a horrible fear of death it must be utterly paralyzing. In that instance people should seek out therapy. In pre modern days death was a part of life and people witnessed it frequently.

The fear that is being spread about teachers and the disease is insane. The CDC recommends in person learning. The Toronto Hospital for Sick Kids recommends in person learning and even states that child to teacher transmission has not even been documented. Good Morning America was on in the lounge yesterday. They showed a study from the University of Minnesota demonstrating the spread of droplets increased immensely when someone is talking in a room across from a ventilation unit as opposed to being under it. The crux is that this study didn't even factor in wearing masks which is something that's being mandated everywhere. Complete garbage science, a huge UP NEXT SAFETY OF TEACHERS IN THE CLASSROOM for an irrelevant study. The study would be the same in any type of space but they're putting the fear of god in teachers specifically.  The local teacher's union has put out demands to either delay in person learning until after Labor day or force closure of school by Labor day if caseloads don't drop. This is in a county of 200k+ where our max community caseload was 315, is currently down to 170 (about 20 a day) and where we've had 3 deaths total. It feels like extortion.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 06:57:33 PM by fuzzy math »

skp

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #270 on: July 30, 2020, 06:38:05 PM »
I was very upset this spring when our school district announced for spring learning that teachers only had to have office hours from 8 - 10 am because many of them had their kids at home. Meanwhile I was an essential worker (hospital) and my husband was allowed to work remotely but still expected to put in 40 hours. Neither of us had the balls to tell our employer we were only available from 8 - 10 am.

In this thread, I've heard that because I'm a healthcare worker I should have expected to sign up to be around sick people. In my specialty I rarely deal with infectious people. In many specialties, healthcare workers have those same expectations (dentistry, dermatology, orthopedics). Meanwhile if someone were to ask the general public what careers are most likely to have people sick and vomiting around them, I'd expect to hear healthcare workers and teachers (going to mention obligatory drunk people bartender comments, but i'm talking purely about SICK PEOPLE). So its a complete fallacy that teachers have been working all this time unaware that children frequently become sick at school (or go to school sick for whatever reason). "I didn't sign up for this!!!" is not a reason enough to disregard the needs of millions unless that individual is willing to put their money where their mouth is and quit their job.
What Kris said plus:
- my dentist was closed for months. 
- Our doctors are still only doing teledoc appointments
- our clinic has shut down non-emergency work (no mammograms, for example).  Although they may start up again soon.

Why? Because COVID can kill.

Dealing with possible sick students and dealing with a disease that can kill you are not equivalent.
Do you think  your dentist was paid while he was closed????

Megs193

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #271 on: July 30, 2020, 09:10:31 PM »
I was very upset this spring when our school district announced for spring learning that teachers only had to have office hours from 8 - 10 am because many of them had their kids at home. Meanwhile I was an essential worker (hospital) and my husband was allowed to work remotely but still expected to put in 40 hours. Neither of us had the balls to tell our employer we were only available from 8 - 10 am.

In this thread, I've heard that because I'm a healthcare worker I should have expected to sign up to be around sick people. In my specialty I rarely deal with infectious people. In many specialties, healthcare workers have those same expectations (dentistry, dermatology, orthopedics). Meanwhile if someone were to ask the general public what careers are most likely to have people sick and vomiting around them, I'd expect to hear healthcare workers and teachers (going to mention obligatory drunk people bartender comments, but i'm talking purely about SICK PEOPLE). So its a complete fallacy that teachers have been working all this time unaware that children frequently become sick at school (or go to school sick for whatever reason). "I didn't sign up for this!!!" is not a reason enough to disregard the needs of millions unless that individual is willing to put their money where their mouth is and quit their job.
What Kris said plus:
- my dentist was closed for months. 
- Our doctors are still only doing teledoc appointments
- our clinic has shut down non-emergency work (no mammograms, for example).  Although they may start up again soon.

Why? Because COVID can kill.

Dealing with possible sick students and dealing with a disease that can kill you are not equivalent.
Do you think  your dentist was paid while he was closed????

You hit the nail on the head.  I work in healthcare and some of my older coworkers chose to not come in to work and be exposed. They didn’t get paid.  If teachers want 100% of their pay then they need to work full hours. If that isn’t in school then they need to be teaching remotely for 8 hours a day.  I can only speak for my children’s districts but the teachers didn’t put in even close to that. Posting bull shit busy work that I could have googled and found online is not teaching. My kids had 1.5 hours of zoom meetings per week.  There should be 2 hours a day where they teach all the concepts and another few hours for kids who need one on one teaching if they have to teach virtually.

fuzzy math

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #272 on: July 30, 2020, 09:26:17 PM »

You hit the nail on the head.  I work in healthcare and some of my older coworkers chose to not come in to work and be exposed. They didn’t get paid.  If teachers want 100% of their pay then they need to work full hours. If that isn’t in school then they need to be teaching remotely for 8 hours a day.  I can only speak for my children’s districts but the teachers didn’t put in even close to that. Posting bull shit busy work that I could have googled and found online is not teaching. My kids had 1.5 hours of zoom meetings per week.  There should be 2 hours a day where they teach all the concepts and another few hours for kids who need one on one teaching if they have to teach virtually.

My hospital furloughed me and cut a lot of benefits. I had to do overnight and weekend temperature taking shifts a few times to justify my salary.

One of my son's teachers came back from maternity leave with a 1 week old baby when school closed, because it was totally manageable to hold email office hours for 2 hours a day. Full pay. My son's speech therapist "didn't have high speed internet" so there was no virtual speech therapy. Meanwhile some friends in another district had 6 hours of Zoom classes daily.

I wouldn't be upset if my kids had received an education this spring or if I had any true belief that they'd receive an adequate education this upcoming year. The district came up with a plan that allowed vulnerable teachers and students to go remote and yet the union is threatening to close down school. My eyes have really been opened to a whole lot of ideas that Republicans have espoused about benefits incentivizing people not to work, and I say this as a (possibly formerly) diehard liberal. Education is a guaranteed public service in this country. I don't remember police, military, waste management, water / electrical infrastructure, fire, healthcare or any other public works being allowed to abdicate their duties and I've not heard any of them complain about being asked to do their jobs this fall either.

lisabobisa

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #273 on: July 31, 2020, 06:40:08 AM »
I get so annoyed when people say teachers are working less and making the same amount of money doing online teaching when I am on my computer from 8 am to 3:30 pm Monday through Friday making video calls (one-on-one calls, small group calls, whole class calls), uploading assignments on my online classroom, searching for pre-made interactive online learning assignments, modifying existing materials to work online, making new materials that can be implemented online, emailing/calling parents with concerns, doing PD on implementing online instruction, writing IEPS, participating in IEP meetings, participating in staff meetings, inputting data.............

I have been teaching for a number of years now and I had to completely revamp my style of teaching, so I actually put in MORE hours now then I did in person.

Just giving a teacher's perspective.....

Kris

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #274 on: July 31, 2020, 06:41:44 AM »
I get so annoyed when people say teachers are working less and making the same amount of money doing online teaching when I am on my computer from 8 am to 3:30 pm Monday through Friday making video calls (one-on-one calls, small group calls, whole class calls), uploading assignments on my online classroom, searching for pre-made interactive online learning assignments, modifying existing materials to work online, making new materials that can be implemented online, emailing/calling parents with concerns, doing PD on implementing online instruction, writing IEPS, participating in IEP meetings, participating in staff meetings, inputting data.............

I have been teaching for a number of years now and I had to completely revamp my style of teaching, so I actually put in MORE hours now then I did in person.

Just giving a teacher's perspective.....

But but but... teachers don’t work in the summers! You must be mistaken! /s

tooqk4u22

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #275 on: July 31, 2020, 07:28:17 AM »
I get so annoyed when people say teachers are working less and making the same amount of money doing online teaching when I am on my computer from 8 am to 3:30 pm Monday through Friday making video calls (one-on-one calls, small group calls, whole class calls), uploading assignments on my online classroom, searching for pre-made interactive online learning assignments, modifying existing materials to work online, making new materials that can be implemented online, emailing/calling parents with concerns, doing PD on implementing online instruction, writing IEPS, participating in IEP meetings, participating in staff meetings, inputting data.............

I have been teaching for a number of years now and I had to completely revamp my style of teaching, so I actually put in MORE hours now then I did in person.

Just giving a teacher's perspective.....

But but but... teachers don’t work in the summers! You must be mistaken! /s

Um, that's what should be happening so I applaud lisa for doing the job, but that has not been the general consensus in my area unfortunately.  Yes they do have summers off and 8-3:30 is 7.5 hours. 

Its been said that the whole teacher thing varies greatly depending on where you are.  Teachers in my area top out around $100-110k but it takes about 15 years to get there per current steps (ignoring new contract bumps every 4 years or so) - that's the equivalent of a $142k annual salary 15 years into your career, so somewhere in your late 30's or so.  I think that's a lot of money.  I didn't know a lot of people that made more than that.    Oh and they only pay 2% into Cadillac health plan that covers whole families for no additional cost and they contribute 7.5% toward pension that gets them 60% after 25 years (so maybe the equivalent of $1.5mil risk free), i also think there is retiree health care.  So when you add the value of those benefits to the salary its approaching a $200k annualized package.   Not bad.  So yeah, I expect more and don't want to hear complaining or see mailing it in.   This is not everywhere, but it is here. 

Many people work many more hours than that and don't get paid extra.  I certainly was one of them.  Sure later in my career I mad a lot of money but my starting pay was way less than a starting teacher and I worked easily 70+ hours a week all year with no extra comp.  I worked on weekends, vacations, etc.  It was awful but I did it.   Most people don't get pensions or have low health care costs - I would kill for 2%.   

Sure, somebody will say if its so great I should have been a teacher.  And you know what I almost was.  Did teaching courses, did student teaching, and then decided I based on my experience that I loved the teaching part but couldn't stand the bureaucracy, rigidity, parents who thought their children were special little snowflakes and administrators who had changed ideals with the wind and almost exclusively sided with the parents and not the teachers (and this was 20 years ago).   So I didn't continue down the path of being an educator. In hindsight, I don't think I would have enjoyed doing the same thing for so many years and likely would have wanted to move into administration.  Sure, I pretty much did the same thing for 20 years but it was different roles, different customers at times, different companies, etc - so there was still a lot of change over my career even if my core role was the same. 

So I get that teaching is not an easy job, but most jobs aren't.  And good teachers work exceptionally hard and more than they are required.   But I think what this thread has demonstrated is that the general experience during covid has not been great. And then add on with the I don't want to work but still get paid with benefits (somewhat exaggerated as it is not all teachers saying this but almost all their unions are). 

 It's not all the teachers fault but they do get the most blame, front line person always does. 


GuitarStv

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #276 on: July 31, 2020, 07:35:08 AM »
The crux is that this study didn't even factor in wearing masks which is something that's being mandated everywhere.

This is an invalid assumption being made.  My province has not mandated mask wearing for grade 4 and under in September.  Mask rules/laws across the US are hit and miss and enforcement is pretty patchy at best.

If mask wearing had been mandated from the start and if compliance was higher, there wouldn't be anywhere near the amount of problems we're seeing today.

Laura33

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #277 on: July 31, 2020, 08:25:44 AM »
Many people work many more hours than that and don't get paid extra.  I certainly was one of them.  Sure later in my career I mad a lot of money but my starting pay was way less than a starting teacher and I worked easily 70+ hours a week all year with no extra comp.  I worked on weekends, vacations, etc.  It was awful but I did it.   Most people don't get pensions or have low health care costs - I would kill for 2%.   

Sure, somebody will say if its so great I should have been a teacher.  And you know what I almost was.  Did teaching courses, did student teaching, and then decided I based on my experience that I loved the teaching part but couldn't stand the bureaucracy, rigidity, parents who thought their children were special little snowflakes and administrators who had changed ideals with the wind and almost exclusively sided with the parents and not the teachers (and this was 20 years ago).   So I didn't continue down the path of being an educator. In hindsight, I don't think I would have enjoyed doing the same thing for so many years and likely would have wanted to move into administration.

Wait.  So, basically, you seriously considered being a teacher.  Then you decided against it, because while teaching itself was great, you decided that the bureaucracy and parents weren't worth the better hours/pay/benefits, and you took a lower-pay, 70-hr/week job with much worse benefits.  So for you, the working conditions teachers have to deal with were so unsatifying that avoiding that unpleasantness was worth @30+ hrs of your life a week AND working summers AND a paycut AND no pension/healthcare. 

That seems to suggest that teachers who have put up with those same conditions for 10-15 years have earned every penny of that $100K salary.

tooqk4u22

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #278 on: July 31, 2020, 09:15:50 AM »
Many people work many more hours than that and don't get paid extra.  I certainly was one of them.  Sure later in my career I mad a lot of money but my starting pay was way less than a starting teacher and I worked easily 70+ hours a week all year with no extra comp.  I worked on weekends, vacations, etc.  It was awful but I did it.   Most people don't get pensions or have low health care costs - I would kill for 2%.   

Sure, somebody will say if its so great I should have been a teacher.  And you know what I almost was.  Did teaching courses, did student teaching, and then decided I based on my experience that I loved the teaching part but couldn't stand the bureaucracy, rigidity, parents who thought their children were special little snowflakes and administrators who had changed ideals with the wind and almost exclusively sided with the parents and not the teachers (and this was 20 years ago).   So I didn't continue down the path of being an educator. In hindsight, I don't think I would have enjoyed doing the same thing for so many years and likely would have wanted to move into administration.

Wait.  So, basically, you seriously considered being a teacher.  Then you decided against it, because while teaching itself was great, you decided that the bureaucracy and parents weren't worth the better hours/pay/benefits, and you took a lower-pay, 70-hr/week job with much worse benefits.  So for you, the working conditions teachers have to deal with were so unsatifying that avoiding that unpleasantness was worth @30+ hrs of your life a week AND working summers AND a paycut AND no pension/healthcare. 

That seems to suggest that teachers who have put up with those same conditions for 10-15 years have earned every penny of that $100K salary.


Interpret it how you will but it wasn't right for me, others yes.  The working conditions were absolutely fine, the other BS/Structural not so much (all jobs have this to some degree).  I am not cut out for government or very fixed operational structures and expectations. 

It was also a matter of opportunity cost, starting lower with much bigger gains to come if it played out right - and it kind of did as I am FIRE after all.    And the reason I FIRE'd when I did was because my job had become vary dissatisfying because each year the part of job I enjoyed gave ever more way to bureaucracy (i.e.  report after report, multiple pipeline calls every week with various levels of management that all were the same, constant oversight and questioning, six people weighing in to make a decision where only one was needed for authorization, etc.)  Very much the Office Space feeling of "Did you see the memo about the TPS reports?"  I had to deal with all that throughout my career, its part of having a job, but it moved from maybe 50/50 to 80/20 and just didn't want to deal with it anymore. 

When I quit, they asked what could we could and I said basically let me drive business and leave me off the all the admin nonsense, let me work remotely and basically come and go as a I please and cut my salary but leave same goals and incentive structure.  The reality was that I didn't even need an office to do my job.  Could of been a win win - i get to do the parts I like and am good at and they get the same revenue at a lower cost.   But of course they couldn't do it and said "Well you know we are a large company with structured policies and HR doesn't think this is feasible and would be concerned about setting a precedent as it relates to other employees."  Ironic though that everyone is now in a work from home mode due to covid.   But my former colleagues are really busy and exclusively working on the suck stuff part of the job right now - I would have gone nuts. 

I can't stand bureaucracy and definitely have an authority issue.  If I see something that is working or could be done better, I want to change it or work around it.  I think to be a teacher or other government employee requires a sort of follower/get in line type of personality, which I am not. 

So just because I didn't want to do it doesn't mean the teachers (in my area at least) don't have really good positions and compensation and quality of life.     


RetiredAt63

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #279 on: July 31, 2020, 09:17:40 AM »
Many people work many more hours than that and don't get paid extra.  I certainly was one of them.  Sure later in my career I mad a lot of money but my starting pay was way less than a starting teacher and I worked easily 70+ hours a week all year with no extra comp.  I worked on weekends, vacations, etc.  It was awful but I did it.   Most people don't get pensions or have low health care costs - I would kill for 2%.   

Sure, somebody will say if its so great I should have been a teacher.  And you know what I almost was.  Did teaching courses, did student teaching, and then decided I based on my experience that I loved the teaching part but couldn't stand the bureaucracy, rigidity, parents who thought their children were special little snowflakes and administrators who had changed ideals with the wind and almost exclusively sided with the parents and not the teachers (and this was 20 years ago).   So I didn't continue down the path of being an educator. In hindsight, I don't think I would have enjoyed doing the same thing for so many years and likely would have wanted to move into administration.

Wait.  So, basically, you seriously considered being a teacher.  Then you decided against it, because while teaching itself was great, you decided that the bureaucracy and parents weren't worth the better hours/pay/benefits, and you took a lower-pay, 70-hr/week job with much worse benefits.  So for you, the working conditions teachers have to deal with were so unsatifying that avoiding that unpleasantness was worth @30+ hrs of your life a week AND working summers AND a paycut AND no pension/healthcare. 

That seems to suggest that teachers who have put up with those same conditions for 10-15 years have earned every penny of that $100K salary.

My DD watched her father and me teach College.  She was adamant her career was going to be 9-5, walk out the door and not think about work until the next day.  She has that job, she works hard, she makes good money, and it is 8-4.

All the support staff at my College used to tell me they felt sorry for the faculty (not just me, all of us),  because our contractual 37.5 hour week was really a 70 hour week, and we took our work home with us.  Even if we were not actually doing work, we were thinking about it, how to encourage a student, deal with a problem, deal with administrators and the administrivia they generated.  We joked about our planned nervous breakdown the first week of vacation, because we could not afford to get sick during the term, the work would just pile up and be waiting for us when we got back.  Christmas vacation, hah.  Marks due in January 2 meant marking final papers and exams all through December while the students were on break.  Mid-term spring break was a solid week of marking. 

I'm sure the demands on an elementary teacher are different, but I doubt they are any less.

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #280 on: July 31, 2020, 09:20:20 AM »
I get so annoyed when people say teachers are working less and making the same amount of money doing online teaching when I am on my computer from 8 am to 3:30 pm Monday through Friday making video calls (one-on-one calls, small group calls, whole class calls), uploading assignments on my online classroom, searching for pre-made interactive online learning assignments, modifying existing materials to work online, making new materials that can be implemented online, emailing/calling parents with concerns, doing PD on implementing online instruction, writing IEPS, participating in IEP meetings, participating in staff meetings, inputting data.............

I have been teaching for a number of years now and I had to completely revamp my style of teaching, so I actually put in MORE hours now then I did in person.

Just giving a teacher's perspective.....

While I agree that there’s unseen work (like the 1:1 calls, etc) that is definitely part of teaching and should be acknowledged, learning how to do your job differently because of COVID is something we are all struggling with and not unique to the teaching profession. We are all doing trapeze with no net right right now.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #281 on: July 31, 2020, 09:30:04 AM »
I get so annoyed when people say teachers are working less and making the same amount of money doing online teaching when I am on my computer from 8 am to 3:30 pm Monday through Friday making video calls (one-on-one calls, small group calls, whole class calls), uploading assignments on my online classroom, searching for pre-made interactive online learning assignments, modifying existing materials to work online, making new materials that can be implemented online, emailing/calling parents with concerns, doing PD on implementing online instruction, writing IEPS, participating in IEP meetings, participating in staff meetings, inputting data.............

I have been teaching for a number of years now and I had to completely revamp my style of teaching, so I actually put in MORE hours now then I did in person.

Just giving a teacher's perspective.....

While I agree that there’s unseen work (like the 1:1 calls, etc) that is definitely part of teaching and should be acknowledged, learning how to do your job differently because of COVID is something we are all struggling with and not unique to the teaching profession. We are all doing trapeze with no net right right now.

Every place I shop has made changes to protect everyone.  This includes protecting the staff from shoppers and the shoppers from staff and other shoppers.  It seems to me that teachers are asking for the same due diligence for them in the classroom.  Protect them from the students, protect the students from them and each other.

My DD is working from home using a work laptop and a work cell phone.  She is not expected to provide her own equipment.  Are the teachers being supplied with the technical equipment they need, or are they expected to use their own, which was not purchased with the expectation of being used for teaching.

If teachers are not being afforded the same resources as other workers, they are being asked to make do in a way other workers are not.  Of course they are going to voice their concerns.

teacherwithamustache

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #282 on: July 31, 2020, 09:41:49 AM »
I will say that I wish I got paid as much as Drs dentist and Nurses.

Well, here's a reason. How much do you think nurses make in relation to teachers?

This may be part of the eye-roll teachers get. There seems to be an almost cultish attitude that teachers are "underpaid," while other professions are not. I know someone who recently retired as a teacher making 90k a year (yes, she basically had three months off every summer of her working life) who would complain about the things she couldn't afford. I don't personally know any nurses who make that much (not saying they don't exist, but they are going to be specialty nurses for the most part, i.e. nurse anesthesiologist). My cousin is an experienced nurse who recently said she has never surpassed 45k a year.

If you look up the average salaries of nurses and teachers in the US, they are competitive, except teachers work fewer hours per calendar year. In many cases if you calculated by average contact hours, teachers make more. Teachers also tend to have union contracts that include benefits that many other jobs don't have.

You took 1 of 3 jobs I suggested.  If you go back you would see the original person said all 3.  I still stand by my statement that I wish I got paid like Dr's, Dentist, and Nurses.

What I like about the Nurse payment plan is that if you get another certification your pay goes up.  Plus a lot of nurses are hourly.  Teachers do not have the option to go hourly.  For example I have 6 different teaching certifications and a masters degree and 19 years experience.  I make $7000 more then a brand new teacher.  You do not find that in nursing.  When you pass your test from one level of nursing to another your salary goes up automatically.  When you get a masters degree boom another major jump.  You would be hard pressed finding a nurse with 15+ years working in a hospital that makes less then 70K.  Plus they have the option to work OT.

If I had to do it again I would be a nurse.

MudPuppy

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #283 on: July 31, 2020, 09:55:55 AM »
I am not sure what you mean by certification? Do you mean LPN/RN? These are licensure levels and certifications are a whole separate thing and are not necessarily correlated with pay.

MudPuppy

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #284 on: July 31, 2020, 09:58:01 AM »
I get so annoyed when people say teachers are working less and making the same amount of money doing online teaching when I am on my computer from 8 am to 3:30 pm Monday through Friday making video calls (one-on-one calls, small group calls, whole class calls), uploading assignments on my online classroom, searching for pre-made interactive online learning assignments, modifying existing materials to work online, making new materials that can be implemented online, emailing/calling parents with concerns, doing PD on implementing online instruction, writing IEPS, participating in IEP meetings, participating in staff meetings, inputting data.............

I have been teaching for a number of years now and I had to completely revamp my style of teaching, so I actually put in MORE hours now then I did in person.

Just giving a teacher's perspective.....

While I agree that there’s unseen work (like the 1:1 calls, etc) that is definitely part of teaching and should be acknowledged, learning how to do your job differently because of COVID is something we are all struggling with and not unique to the teaching profession. We are all doing trapeze with no net right right now.

Every place I shop has made changes to protect everyone.  This includes protecting the staff from shoppers and the shoppers from staff and other shoppers.  It seems to me that teachers are asking for the same due diligence for them in the classroom.  Protect them from the students, protect the students from them and each other.

My DD is working from home using a work laptop and a work cell phone.  She is not expected to provide her own equipment.  Are the teachers being supplied with the technical equipment they need, or are they expected to use their own, which was not purchased with the expectation of being used for teaching.

If teachers are not being afforded the same resources as other workers, they are being asked to make do in a way other workers are not.  Of course they are going to voice their concerns.

Not saying they don’t deserve resources or protection. The context was about paid versus unpaid time for various parts of their job.

teacherwithamustache

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #285 on: July 31, 2020, 10:11:28 AM »
A couple of points after reading all of the comments:

1.  Thanks for the replies it has given me greater perspective
2.  For those complaining about how little their child learned during the the April and May portions of at home learning let me share a couple of stories.

I am a HS teacher and wife is a college professor.  We have a 4th grader and were worried about why she was done so quickly with her work.  We started timing her a couple of times and were about to zoom with the principal.  Before doing so We asked our daughter why she was done so fast and if she was doing a typical days amount of work.  She said she was doing the same amount of work but when the teacher does not have to tell the bad kids to stop talking, pay attention, and the other students need to do their work every 2 minutes, she is able to do her work a lot faster.

I got 18 parent emails about work load during virtual classes.  9 of them said too little work, 8 of them said too much work, and 1 thanked me for having the same materials as their older brother had when he had my class 2 years earlier.  All of my materials has been on google classroom for 5 years.  I literally log in with my kids every day thru google classroom and go thru the work with them.  When I am not there they know how to do the days assignment with the sub.

3.  Teachers are one of the most conspiracy/scare tactic driven professions of college graduates out there.  This could explain some of the teacher paranoia.


mm1970

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #286 on: July 31, 2020, 10:55:48 AM »
I was very upset this spring when our school district announced for spring learning that teachers only had to have office hours from 8 - 10 am because many of them had their kids at home. Meanwhile I was an essential worker (hospital) and my husband was allowed to work remotely but still expected to put in 40 hours. Neither of us had the balls to tell our employer we were only available from 8 - 10 am.

In this thread, I've heard that because I'm a healthcare worker I should have expected to sign up to be around sick people. In my specialty I rarely deal with infectious people. In many specialties, healthcare workers have those same expectations (dentistry, dermatology, orthopedics). Meanwhile if someone were to ask the general public what careers are most likely to have people sick and vomiting around them, I'd expect to hear healthcare workers and teachers (going to mention obligatory drunk people bartender comments, but i'm talking purely about SICK PEOPLE). So its a complete fallacy that teachers have been working all this time unaware that children frequently become sick at school (or go to school sick for whatever reason). "I didn't sign up for this!!!" is not a reason enough to disregard the needs of millions unless that individual is willing to put their money where their mouth is and quit their job.
What Kris said plus:
- my dentist was closed for months. 
- Our doctors are still only doing teledoc appointments
- our clinic has shut down non-emergency work (no mammograms, for example).  Although they may start up again soon.

Why? Because COVID can kill.

Dealing with possible sick students and dealing with a disease that can kill you are not equivalent.
Do you think  your dentist was paid while he was closed????
She.

And well, no?  But what's the point?  Not all healthcare workers are "essential" (the point the other poster made), and if they weren't working, they weren't getting paid.

Teachers, however - teachers were working at the end of the school year (virtually - at least ours were, and full time).
Teachers will be teaching again this year (virtually, to start).  So...they will be getting paid also.  I mean, duh.

I've been working (from home instead of the office), and I'm also getting paid.  If I were unable to work from home and unable or unwilling to go to the office, I would stop getting paid when I ran out of sick time, COVID FMLA, and PTO.  I am not an essential employee.

NOT all healthcare workers were essential.  Not all were going to work, and they weren't getting paid.  Last I checked though, you can't get a virtual Xray.  You CAN, however, have a virtual teledoc appointment for many things.  LIKEWISE, you can teach virtually.  It sucks, but it can be done.

Quote
You hit the nail on the head.  I work in healthcare and some of my older coworkers chose to not come in to work and be exposed. They didn’t get paid.  If teachers want 100% of their pay then they need to work full hours. If that isn’t in school then they need to be teaching remotely for 8 hours a day.  I can only speak for my children’s districts but the teachers didn’t put in even close to that. Posting bull shit busy work that I could have googled and found online is not teaching. My kids had 1.5 hours of zoom meetings per week.  There should be 2 hours a day where they teach all the concepts and another few hours for kids who need one on one teaching if they have to teach virtually.

Our teachers are expected to teach virtually for the contracted amount of hours.  That depends on the grade, but it is not 8 hours per day.  190-240 minutes for elementary, for example.  That is active teaching time each day, and obviously does not include preparation, grading, and office hours.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 11:07:10 AM by mm1970 »

mm1970

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #287 on: July 31, 2020, 11:04:16 AM »
Quote
The fear that is being spread about teachers and the disease is insane. The CDC recommends in person learning. The Toronto Hospital for Sick Kids recommends in person learning and even states that child to teacher transmission has not even been documented.

Locally:
- we have documented cases of student-to-teacher transmission
- Children 10 and up spread COVID like adults (that's a recent study)
- Many of our teachers are 55+
- Our local rates of COVID are increasing, and the single biggest age group increases are in the 0-17 and 18-29 and 30-49 age groups because: people are stupid.  They are going to bars, having family parties, letting their kids go on play dates.
- The state has developed metrics that must be met (reasonable ones too) before schools can reopen.

What's all this shit about teachers being scared irrationally and need to not be?  You realize it's HIGHLY location dependent?  The state metrics require two straight weeks of a 14-day case rate to be <100 per 100,000 people.  Ours is over 300.  In easier terms, we have to average < 32 new cases a day (for a county of less than half a million).  (We also have to have a daily % positive test rate of <8%).  These are very reasonable metrics.  You want to reopen?  Wear a mask, be socially responsible, and get the local case rate down to manageable levels.  As far as I know, nobody is saying NEVER, they are saying NOT YET.

We don't actually have a great deal of info on how children spread the virus because at the end of the school year, kids weren't in school...

mm1970

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #288 on: July 31, 2020, 11:16:24 AM »
I get so annoyed when people say teachers are working less and making the same amount of money doing online teaching when I am on my computer from 8 am to 3:30 pm Monday through Friday making video calls (one-on-one calls, small group calls, whole class calls), uploading assignments on my online classroom, searching for pre-made interactive online learning assignments, modifying existing materials to work online, making new materials that can be implemented online, emailing/calling parents with concerns, doing PD on implementing online instruction, writing IEPS, participating in IEP meetings, participating in staff meetings, inputting data.............

I have been teaching for a number of years now and I had to completely revamp my style of teaching, so I actually put in MORE hours now then I did in person.

Just giving a teacher's perspective.....

While I agree that there’s unseen work (like the 1:1 calls, etc) that is definitely part of teaching and should be acknowledged, learning how to do your job differently because of COVID is something we are all struggling with and not unique to the teaching profession. We are all doing trapeze with no net right right now.

I feel like a lot of people here (and elsewhere) are being really really shitty to teachers for what happened at the end of the school year - when we were (and are) experiencing a LITERAL FUCKING PANDEMIC.  Good lord people!  EVERYONE was thrown off their game, from parents stuck home with kids 24/7, essential workers working without PPE, a lot of people losing their jobs, difficulty finding food and toilet paper.  My son's 62 year old teacher (who was retiring, by the way), had to completely revamp her teaching style to teach online, with very poor IT support, and had to wing it with google classroom and zoom.

Literally everyone had to do that.  My husband and I suddenly had to work at home with 2 kids in school, in a 2BR house.  We needed more equipment and more headphones.  A million weekly conference calls. We had to figure out how to keep a 7 yo on task for 6-7 hours a day.  (His teacher, the one who was retiring, was fantastic by the way).  MOST of the junior high teachers were even better because the JH and HS already use an online system for grading and assigning and submitting homework.

I DON'T KNOW A SINGLE PERSON, JOB, OR COMPANY that wasn't thrown for a complete loop when this happened, so can we stop being assholes about it?  My district spent the entire summer trying to figure out how to get kids back in school, only to be told 3rd week July that it ain't happening.  They have been using the last 4 weeks before school starts prepping everyone for distance learning.  This is soooo not easy. 

charis

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #289 on: July 31, 2020, 11:36:23 AM »
We don't actually have a great deal of info on how children spread the virus because at the end of the school year, kids weren't in school...

Actually we do have data on whether children spread the virus - there have been studies of data in other countries who have reopened schools or never closed them.  Where schools in areas without widespread community transmission reopened for younger students, there was no significant increase in transmission and almost no staff infections.

Laura33

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #290 on: July 31, 2020, 11:39:03 AM »
I feel like a lot of people here (and elsewhere) are being really really shitty to teachers for what happened at the end of the school year - when we were (and are) experiencing a LITERAL FUCKING PANDEMIC.  Good lord people!  EVERYONE was thrown off their game, from parents stuck home with kids 24/7, essential workers working without PPE, a lot of people losing their jobs, difficulty finding food and toilet paper.  My son's 62 year old teacher (who was retiring, by the way), had to completely revamp her teaching style to teach online, with very poor IT support, and had to wing it with google classroom and zoom.

Literally everyone had to do that.  My husband and I suddenly had to work at home with 2 kids in school, in a 2BR house.  We needed more equipment and more headphones.  A million weekly conference calls. We had to figure out how to keep a 7 yo on task for 6-7 hours a day.  (His teacher, the one who was retiring, was fantastic by the way).  MOST of the junior high teachers were even better because the JH and HS already use an online system for grading and assigning and submitting homework.

I DON'T KNOW A SINGLE PERSON, JOB, OR COMPANY that wasn't thrown for a complete loop when this happened, so can we stop being assholes about it?  My district spent the entire summer trying to figure out how to get kids back in school, only to be told 3rd week July that it ain't happening.  They have been using the last 4 weeks before school starts prepping everyone for distance learning.  This is soooo not easy.

+1

I remember the Fox News stories hereabouts about how the schools hadn't appropriately rolled out laptops to all kids something like 2-3 weeks after the schools went online for the year -- presented as one more in their ongoing series of how the public schools are failing their kids.  And I'm thinking:  dude.  It's a pandemic.  Literally no one saw this coming, either within the school system or in the giant pool of parents who send kids to those schools.  Not 2-3 years ago when they were developing the "every kid gets a laptop" schedule; not a year ago when they were developing the budget for the year; not a month ago when NY had the first huge breakout; not even a few weeks ago, when schools took an early spring break and everyone hoped that a 2-week shutdown would clear everything out and we could go back to normal.  And yet despite that, the district still turned on a dime, got laptops out to the vast majority of the remaining kids within a couple of weeks, and rejiggered the plans to adapt to online learning for the entire rest of the year.  But they deserve to be called out as a failure because they didn't execute that massive transition perfectly, under unprecedented circumstances?

It all sucks.  The base level of life now is largely extra hard now for most people, and all of us are going to have to deal with shit we didn't bargain for and never wanted.  But I find all of that more tolerable when I start from the assumption that the vast majority of people are well-intentioned and trying to do the best they can in extremely difficult circumstances.

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #291 on: July 31, 2020, 11:39:33 AM »
We don't actually have a great deal of info on how children spread the virus because at the end of the school year, kids weren't in school...

Actually we do have data on whether children spread the virus - there have been studies of data in other countries who have reopened schools or never closed them.  Where schools in areas without widespread community transmission reopened for younger students, there was no significant increase in transmission and almost no staff infections.

So this excludes probably the majority of the contiguous US states right now, and certainly all the states in the south and west.

OtherJen

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #292 on: July 31, 2020, 11:46:20 AM »
I feel like a lot of people here (and elsewhere) are being really really shitty to teachers for what happened at the end of the school year - when we were (and are) experiencing a LITERAL FUCKING PANDEMIC.  Good lord people!  EVERYONE was thrown off their game, from parents stuck home with kids 24/7, essential workers working without PPE, a lot of people losing their jobs, difficulty finding food and toilet paper.  My son's 62 year old teacher (who was retiring, by the way), had to completely revamp her teaching style to teach online, with very poor IT support, and had to wing it with google classroom and zoom.

Literally everyone had to do that.  My husband and I suddenly had to work at home with 2 kids in school, in a 2BR house.  We needed more equipment and more headphones.  A million weekly conference calls. We had to figure out how to keep a 7 yo on task for 6-7 hours a day.  (His teacher, the one who was retiring, was fantastic by the way).  MOST of the junior high teachers were even better because the JH and HS already use an online system for grading and assigning and submitting homework.

I DON'T KNOW A SINGLE PERSON, JOB, OR COMPANY that wasn't thrown for a complete loop when this happened, so can we stop being assholes about it?  My district spent the entire summer trying to figure out how to get kids back in school, only to be told 3rd week July that it ain't happening.  They have been using the last 4 weeks before school starts prepping everyone for distance learning.  This is soooo not easy.

+1

I remember the Fox News stories hereabouts about how the schools hadn't appropriately rolled out laptops to all kids something like 2-3 weeks after the schools went online for the year -- presented as one more in their ongoing series of how the public schools are failing their kids.  And I'm thinking:  dude.  It's a pandemic.  Literally no one saw this coming, either within the school system or in the giant pool of parents who send kids to those schools.  Not 2-3 years ago when they were developing the "every kid gets a laptop" schedule; not a year ago when they were developing the budget for the year; not a month ago when NY had the first huge breakout; not even a few weeks ago, when schools took an early spring break and everyone hoped that a 2-week shutdown would clear everything out and we could go back to normal.  And yet despite that, the district still turned on a dime, got laptops out to the vast majority of the remaining kids within a couple of weeks, and rejiggered the plans to adapt to online learning for the entire rest of the year.  But they deserve to be called out as a failure because they didn't execute that massive transition perfectly, under unprecedented circumstances?

It all sucks.  The base level of life now is largely extra hard now for most people, and all of us are going to have to deal with shit we didn't bargain for and never wanted.  But I find all of that more tolerable when I start from the assumption that the vast majority of people are well-intentioned and trying to do the best they can in extremely difficult circumstances.

God, right?! We went from no reported cases to state-wide school and library closures, PPE shortages, and a FEMA field hospital and morgue overflow trucks in my county within a 4-week period. I’m trying to figure out how school districts were supposed to supply laptops to all students when the announcement that schools would close on the following Monday came after 10 pm on a Thursday night. And for the people complaining about paying school district taxes in fancy districts: those extra taxes pay for things like laptops and network services.

charis

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #293 on: July 31, 2020, 11:47:16 AM »
We don't actually have a great deal of info on how children spread the virus because at the end of the school year, kids weren't in school...

Actually we do have data on whether children spread the virus - there have been studies of data in other countries who have reopened schools or never closed them.  Where schools in areas without widespread community transmission reopened for younger students, there was no significant increase in transmission and almost no staff infections.

So this excludes probably the majority of the contiguous US states right now, and certainly all the states in the south and west.

I was not arguing for the reopening of schools, just pointing out that there is data on this topic that is useful in showing if, and suggests how, schools can reopen safely.

https://globalhealth.washington.edu/file/6393/download


Cranky

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #294 on: July 31, 2020, 04:21:05 PM »
Nurses where I live make significantly more than teachers.  20-80% more, for the same level of education (BS, master's) and same number of years of experience.
Garbage collectors make more than both, with less education. And probably the average art history major can't even get a job in their field, to say nothing of getting paid as much as a teacher or a nurse. Salary isn't solely or even mostly determined by how long you go to school for a given profession.

The average salary for drivers at my garbage company is $38k, so not exactly making the big bucks.

I dunno what art history majors are making these days, but my dd with the English degree is doing fine. ;-)

FIence!

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #295 on: July 31, 2020, 04:59:10 PM »
I will say that I wish I got paid as much as Drs dentist and Nurses.

Well, here's a reason. How much do you think nurses make in relation to teachers?

This may be part of the eye-roll teachers get. There seems to be an almost cultish attitude that teachers are "underpaid," while other professions are not. I know someone who recently retired as a teacher making 90k a year (yes, she basically had three months off every summer of her working life) who would complain about the things she couldn't afford. I don't personally know any nurses who make that much (not saying they don't exist, but they are going to be specialty nurses for the most part, i.e. nurse anesthesiologist). My cousin is an experienced nurse who recently said she has never surpassed 45k a year.

If you look up the average salaries of nurses and teachers in the US, they are competitive, except teachers work fewer hours per calendar year. In many cases if you calculated by average contact hours, teachers make more. Teachers also tend to have union contracts that include benefits that many other jobs don't have.

You took 1 of 3 jobs I suggested.  If you go back you would see the original person said all 3.  I still stand by my statement that I wish I got paid like Dr's, Dentist, and Nurses.

What I like about the Nurse payment plan is that if you get another certification your pay goes up.  Plus a lot of nurses are hourly.  Teachers do not have the option to go hourly.  For example I have 6 different teaching certifications and a masters degree and 19 years experience.  I make $7000 more then a brand new teacher.  You do not find that in nursing.  When you pass your test from one level of nursing to another your salary goes up automatically.  When you get a masters degree boom another major jump.  You would be hard pressed finding a nurse with 15+ years working in a hospital that makes less then 70K.  Plus they have the option to work OT.

If I had to do it again I would be a nurse.

Right. I took one of the three jobs you named to ask the question, "How much do you think nurses are paid?" Are you implying that I'm cherry picking information because you named three professions you "wish you were paid like" and I questioned the inclusion of one of them? I didn't name the other two because I agree with you that most doctors and most dentists likely make more than most teachers.

I am confused about this "nurse payment plan" you speak of. In my socialist dream world, we're all on a constantly elevating scheme of payment, but I seriously don't know what you are talking about here. My guess is that it's maybe based on one anecdotal piece of evidence (i.e. you know a well-paid, low-stress nurse). So the follow up questions:

-What do you mean by "another certification"? (Someone else suggested LPN/RN, this would be a completely separate degree and type of nurse. They pay scales you are thinking of strictly apply to RNs and specialized nurses and don't even include most LPNs.) If you're saying that a nurse becomes a nurse practitioner and then makes more money, well yeah. If a teacher becomes the principal they make more money, too. Additionally, you can't conflate RNs with "all nurses" when RNs are less than 5% of the staff in areas like outpatient care, doctors offices, many dialysis centers, etc.
-Yup, a lot of nurses get paid hourly. And often hourly = no benefits. There are many, many nurses in the world who are "relief" or "per diem" and get paid hourly, only when invited to work, and get no benefits. This is similar to substitute teaching, except that my experience is that most subs are not licensed teachers who had their school of employment close down and now have to sub full-time.
-I don't know what you mean by "pay goes up automatically" with more education. I am guessing, again, you know someone who works a)at a hospital, and b)at a hospital that still has a strong union. These are becoming less common. Corporate takeovers of smaller hospital systems are common in many areas, and with that comes loss of jobs for many, and loss of benefits for those who stay. My anecdotal data point is an RN I know who got her BSN after years in the work force, and the response was basically "why would we pay you more to do the same job?" Also of note, only about half of all nurses work in hospitals, so you're purposely selecting the highest paid.
-On the option to work overtime, it's often less of an option than a mandate, especially for--you guessed it!--the non-RN nurses who fill the staff at nursing homes and other places where a single nurse is in charge of a whole hall, unit, or floor by himself. If a co-worker doesn't show up for their shift, you literally can't leave as that would be abandonment. So a last-minute call-in or no call, no show means you get a surprise 16 or 20 hour shift sometimes. (ETA: Imagine if your school had a second night shift, and if the second shift teacher didn't come in, you had to stay and teach that teacher's class until midnight after you'd been there all day. If you didn't you could lose your license and be jailed.)

None of this is to catch you in gotcha moment, but to underscore that if the original question was "why are people down on teachers," a really, really common theme I've noticed with the profession is that teachers always think everyone has it better than them, and bring up their supposed low pay when any evidence to the contrary is brought up. It's not a good look in a world where so many people wish they had the pay, schedule, and job security that many teachers do.

Do I think teachers could be paid more in many areas of the country? Fuck yes! Lots of people should be. It doesn't mean that it's accurate to say "No one makes less than me, I'm a teacher!" (which a person recently loud-announced at my college reunion, while entering a group of people that I can guarantee make less than him, or at least have worse benefits, as the discussion he entered while making that announcement was about buying our own ACA insurance). Another teacher in this thread brought up her 7.5 hour work day. Sounds dreamy to me. Again, my response was to underscore why people already have a bias toward eye-rolling when teachers ask questions like "Do I actually have to use my own sick days if I get sick?" when other people don't even have sick days.

Teachers aren't unpaid volunteers. You can wish you got paid as much as a doctor, and I can wish I got paid as much as the teachers I know, and hopefully one day that will happen for both of us. American voters don't seem to be on board with income inequality (or really any other kind) being a thing, or the "liberal choice" for our upcoming election wouldn't be to vote for Biden, which to paraphrase Nina Turner, is like eating a half bowl of shit. 

That said, if you really wish you could do it over again, can you? Nursing is a 2-year program, usually with pretty low cost of tuition, and if you're sure the pay, benefits, and lifestyle would work out better for you, wouldn't it be worth making the switch now? Or are you close enough to FIRE that it wouldn't make sense?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 05:12:07 PM by FIence! »

obstinate

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #296 on: August 01, 2020, 08:42:53 AM »
The crux is that this study didn't even factor in wearing masks which is something that's being mandated everywhere.

This is an invalid assumption being made.  My province has not mandated mask wearing for grade 4 and under in September.  Mask rules/laws across the US are hit and miss and enforcement is pretty patchy at best.

If mask wearing had been mandated from the start and if compliance was higher, there wouldn't be anywhere near the amount of problems we're seeing today.
This aspect of things is so craxy-making. My five year old puts his mask on when we leave the house and doesn't take it off until we return. He's not particularly disciplined. But it's a requirement we impose on him.

If a student won't keep their mask on, send them home. Do that every day until the parent finds a way to get the required behavior out of the child. For 99% of children this should not be an issue. Special needs children are a different story sometimes but that's fine because we need aggregate compliance, not perfect compliance

obstinate

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #297 on: August 01, 2020, 08:51:41 AM »
Nurses where I live make significantly more than teachers.  20-80% more, for the same level of education (BS, master's) and same number of years of experience.
Garbage collectors make more than both, with less education. And probably the average art history major can't even get a job in their field, to say nothing of getting paid as much as a teacher or a nurse. Salary isn't solely or even mostly determined by how long you go to school for a given profession.

The average salary for drivers at my garbage company is $38k, so not exactly making the big bucks.

I dunno what art history majors are making these days, but my dd with the English degree is doing fine. ;-)
It's 150k in NYC, according to some salary website I looked at.

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #298 on: August 01, 2020, 09:05:36 AM »
The crux is that this study didn't even factor in wearing masks which is something that's being mandated everywhere.

This is an invalid assumption being made.  My province has not mandated mask wearing for grade 4 and under in September.  Mask rules/laws across the US are hit and miss and enforcement is pretty patchy at best.

If mask wearing had been mandated from the start and if compliance was higher, there wouldn't be anywhere near the amount of problems we're seeing today.
This aspect of things is so craxy-making. My five year old puts his mask on when we leave the house and doesn't take it off until we return. He's not particularly disciplined. But it's a requirement we impose on him.

If a student won't keep their mask on, send them home. Do that every day until the parent finds a way to get the required behavior out of the child. For 99% of children this should not be an issue. Special needs children are a different story sometimes but that's fine because we need aggregate compliance, not perfect compliance

+1

I have two young children who are not particularly compliant about anything and one of them has some sensory issues. But at ages 6 and 8 they understand why masks are important, and they understand that if they want the world to go back to normal they need to wear them. So they do.

We've never gone more than an hour and a half or so with masks, because there is no place to really go right now. But if we do decide to send them back to school I trust that they will do their best to wear them - because they desperately want to go back to school.

Cyanne

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #299 on: August 01, 2020, 09:21:07 AM »
I will say that I wish I got paid as much as Drs dentist and Nurses.

Well, here's a reason. How much do you think nurses make in relation to teachers?

This may be part of the eye-roll teachers get. There seems to be an almost cultish attitude that teachers are "underpaid," while other professions are not. I know someone who recently retired as a teacher making 90k a year (yes, she basically had three months off every summer of her working life) who would complain about the things she couldn't afford. I don't personally know any nurses who make that much (not saying they don't exist, but they are going to be specialty nurses for the most part, i.e. nurse anesthesiologist). My cousin is an experienced nurse who recently said she has never surpassed 45k a year.

If you look up the average salaries of nurses and teachers in the US, they are competitive, except teachers work fewer hours per calendar year. In many cases if you calculated by average contact hours, teachers make more. Teachers also tend to have union contracts that include benefits that many other jobs don't have.

You took 1 of 3 jobs I suggested.  If you go back you would see the original person said all 3.  I still stand by my statement that I wish I got paid like Dr's, Dentist, and Nurses.

What I like about the Nurse payment plan is that if you get another certification your pay goes up.  Plus a lot of nurses are hourly.  Teachers do not have the option to go hourly.  For example I have 6 different teaching certifications and a masters degree and 19 years experience.  I make $7000 more then a brand new teacher.  You do not find that in nursing.  When you pass your test from one level of nursing to another your salary goes up automatically.  When you get a masters degree boom another major jump.  You would be hard pressed finding a nurse with 15+ years working in a hospital that makes less then 70K.  Plus they have the option to work OT.

If I had to do it again I would be a nurse.

Right. I took one of the three jobs you named to ask the question, "How much do you think nurses are paid?" Are you implying that I'm cherry picking information because you named three professions you "wish you were paid like" and I questioned the inclusion of one of them? I didn't name the other two because I agree with you that most doctors and most dentists likely make more than most teachers.

I am confused about this "nurse payment plan" you speak of. In my socialist dream world, we're all on a constantly elevating scheme of payment, but I seriously don't know what you are talking about here. My guess is that it's maybe based on one anecdotal piece of evidence (i.e. you know a well-paid, low-stress nurse). So the follow up questions:

-What do you mean by "another certification"? (Someone else suggested LPN/RN, this would be a completely separate degree and type of nurse. They pay scales you are thinking of strictly apply to RNs and specialized nurses and don't even include most LPNs.) If you're saying that a nurse becomes a nurse practitioner and then makes more money, well yeah. If a teacher becomes the principal they make more money, too. Additionally, you can't conflate RNs with "all nurses" when RNs are less than 5% of the staff in areas like outpatient care, doctors offices, many dialysis centers, etc.
-Yup, a lot of nurses get paid hourly. And often hourly = no benefits. There are many, many nurses in the world who are "relief" or "per diem" and get paid hourly, only when invited to work, and get no benefits. This is similar to substitute teaching, except that my experience is that most subs are not licensed teachers who had their school of employment close down and now have to sub full-time.
-I don't know what you mean by "pay goes up automatically" with more education. I am guessing, again, you know someone who works a)at a hospital, and b)at a hospital that still has a strong union. These are becoming less common. Corporate takeovers of smaller hospital systems are common in many areas, and with that comes loss of jobs for many, and loss of benefits for those who stay. My anecdotal data point is an RN I know who got her BSN after years in the work force, and the response was basically "why would we pay you more to do the same job?" Also of note, only about half of all nurses work in hospitals, so you're purposely selecting the highest paid.
-On the option to work overtime, it's often less of an option than a mandate, especially for--you guessed it!--the non-RN nurses who fill the staff at nursing homes and other places where a single nurse is in charge of a whole hall, unit, or floor by himself. If a co-worker doesn't show up for their shift, you literally can't leave as that would be abandonment. So a last-minute call-in or no call, no show means you get a surprise 16 or 20 hour shift sometimes. (ETA: Imagine if your school had a second night shift, and if the second shift teacher didn't come in, you had to stay and teach that teacher's class until midnight after you'd been there all day. If you didn't you could lose your license and be jailed.)

None of this is to catch you in gotcha moment, but to underscore that if the original question was "why are people down on teachers," a really, really common theme I've noticed with the profession is that teachers always think everyone has it better than them, and bring up their supposed low pay when any evidence to the contrary is brought up. It's not a good look in a world where so many people wish they had the pay, schedule, and job security that many teachers do.

Do I think teachers could be paid more in many areas of the country? Fuck yes! Lots of people should be. It doesn't mean that it's accurate to say "No one makes less than me, I'm a teacher!" (which a person recently loud-announced at my college reunion, while entering a group of people that I can guarantee make less than him, or at least have worse benefits, as the discussion he entered while making that announcement was about buying our own ACA insurance). Another teacher in this thread brought up her 7.5 hour work day. Sounds dreamy to me. Again, my response was to underscore why people already have a bias toward eye-rolling when teachers ask questions like "Do I actually have to use my own sick days if I get sick?" when other people don't even have sick days.

Teachers aren't unpaid volunteers. You can wish you got paid as much as a doctor, and I can wish I got paid as much as the teachers I know, and hopefully one day that will happen for both of us. American voters don't seem to be on board with income inequality (or really any other kind) being a thing, or the "liberal choice" for our upcoming election wouldn't be to vote for Biden, which to paraphrase Nina Turner, is like eating a half bowl of shit. 

That said, if you really wish you could do it over again, can you? Nursing is a 2-year program, usually with pretty low cost of tuition, and if you're sure the pay, benefits, and lifestyle would work out better for you, wouldn't it be worth making the switch now? Or are you close enough to FIRE that it wouldn't make sense?

I think that some clarification needs to be made on what level of nursing licensure is being compared to teaching. LPNs are a two year degree whereas teaching requires a minimum of 4 years and can require a masters degree. If you want to compare LPN salaries, I suggest comparing them to paraprofessional that are in the classroom. Ours get paid $13 per hour with a maximum of 6 hours per day. In my state most paras have two years of college or pass an exam.