Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?

[teacherwithamustache]

Teaching is the only profession out there where everyone outside of teaching thinks they are an expert because they were once in a school. 

Not that it's the main point of the discussion, but it might make you feel better to know that plenty of professions have this problem.

I am interested in hearing some examples?  Besides Schools name something where 99% of the population has been involved or a member of for a good chunk of time?

[JGS1980]

Odd how teachers in Europe and Canada go back to work but American teachers seem to be having such a hard time. 

As an essential worker I’ve done quite a bit of traveling, and the politically driven hysteria in the US is certainly something unique globally.

Ideally if teachers are not OK with going back to work they should be placed on long term unpaid leave till they feel “safe”.  There are plenty of unemployed, less vulnerable people that could make adequate/reliable replacements. 

Why people continue to pay their school taxes through all this I have no idea.

Europe is a huge place made up of multiple countries with their own languages, cultures and education systems.  In my little corner of Europe (Italy) they still haven't decided whether and how school will reopen in September. My kids did online schooling from March-June and now they have summer vacation.  One thing I'll say is that our numbers are WAY lower that those in the US.  There is no way the Italian government would have even considered sending kids back to school if our numbers were anywhere near those in the US right now.

Hi Hula Hoop,

I think the difference in the states is the upcoming election. I would love to live in an alternate universe where this Covid Pandemic came on year 1 of Trump's presidency as opposed to year 4. I believe it would have led to a completely different response.

An administration that only cares about winning reelection will do whatever it takes to win, including opening states early and reopening schools early. Desperation can lead to some weird decisions.

If there were more time prior to the election, I think there would not have been as much of a rush.

I wonder if there could be some kind of comparison to other democracies in the world right now? Compare election year responses vs non-election year decision making.

[OtherJen]

Teaching is the only profession out there where everyone outside of teaching thinks they are an expert because they were once in a school. 

Not that it's the main point of the discussion, but it might make you feel better to know that plenty of professions have this problem.

I am interested in hearing some examples?  Besides Schools name something where 99% of the population has been involved or a member of for a good chunk of time?

I’d guess medicine and public health/epidemiology, especially in the age of this pandemic and Dr. Google. Most people in this country have been treated by a medical professional, and we all live in communities.

[johndoe]

I am interested in hearing some examples?  Besides Schools name something where 99% of the population has been involved or a member of for a good chunk of time?

In fairness I'd agree that education is tough to beat in terms of people spending plenty of time in the system, but lots of people are "experts" without spending as much time ha!  I don't know if it's uniquely American, but plenty of people are very opinionated about how to fix certain problems / systems and often use personal experiences to assume they understand the entire industry.

Sports owners / coaches: sort of a joke but plenty of our society places a huge value in their hometown team and wants to fire the coach anytime they lose, etc

Meteorologists: "these guys are just guessing!  I've seen the weather here for 50 years"

Healthcare / insurance (rights vs services, wait times, coverage of certain conditions)

Almost any public service has this since people pay into it so they feel ownership: police / laws (tactics), IRS tax collection, DMV, post office.  When I look at my tax bill and "school district" is in 1st place it's natural for me to complain, right?

Selfishly, I'll use my career.  I'm a transportation engineer, and nearly everyone in our society drives / walks / rides transit.  Everyone thinks their problems should be prioritized (often regardless of data).

[MudPuppy]

Agree with above examples. Janitorial and restaurant industries are also on the list. Plus acting and modeling, comedy, and musical artists. Everyone seems to think they know more than the people doing the actual work.

[DadJokes]

Meteorologists: "these guys are just guessing!  I've seen the weather here for 50 years"

I don't claim to know much about the weather, but I think a guy with a magic 8-ball can predict the weather with just as much accuracy as the Weather Channel app on my phone.

It gets annoying making plans for the day based on what the the app says the weather is supposed to do, and it somehow being wrong more often than right.

Sorry, way off topic, but my wife gets tired of me complaining about inaccurate weather reports, so I needed an outlet.

[ReadySetMillionaire]

I am interested in hearing some examples?  Besides Schools name something where 99% of the population has been involved or a member of for a good chunk of time?

I can hear every lawyer and accountant's head exploding reading this.

***

I unfortunately do not have time to read this thread, but did want to comment. My twin brother and MIL are teachers in a very rural community so I've paid a lot of attention to this. My thoughts:

(1) When I talk to people, the biggest issue by far is property taxes. It is a huge yearly expense, and people expect services in return. To simply close schools and not provide the same service makes people feel like they are getting ripped off.

At least where I'm at (and I work for City government), all departments stayed open or people took furloughs. The fact that schools are a special snowflake does not seem fair (just from a tax/service perspective).

(2) Remote learning is only for the privileged elite. Again, I work for a city government and heard second-hand that more than 70% of kids did not log in for a single online class. Roughly 40% of my brother's rural district did not have access to internet to do remote learning. It is incredibly detrimental to these kids to keep schools closed.

(3) A lot of people think schools are an essential service. School (and extracurriculars) are so unbelievably important to youth development that it's too long to describe. To lock them out of this development has incredibly negative long term consequences.

(4) People have made life and career decisions around their kids being school age. Pulling the rug out from under them is a huge disruption that, again, only the elite are able to avoid and/or deal with.

(5) School districts completely wasted the spring in terms of planning for fall. Every teacher I talk to says schools were waiting on the federal or state government to say something, and then when the federal government said to reopen, they weren't prepared. This lost time really annoys people who have had to work through this.

(6) Lastly, I think the CDC data supports that kids are largely spared. They have extremely low death rates, extremely low hospitalization rates, and generally do not spread COVID (there are anecdotal exceptions, just talking broad statistics). There was an article recently that there's not a single case in the world of a student passing COVID to a teacher (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-known-case-of-teacher-catching-coronavirus-from-pupils-says-scientist-3zk5g2x6z). Also, this article is really interesting (https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882316641/what-parents-can-learn-from-child-care-centers-that-stayed-open-during-lockdowns). So, I don't think teachers and teachers unions are being rational about their risks.

(7) One more thing -- I think people observe the union battles with management as not being in the best interests of the kids. It's a shame that unions get so much criticism but some of the recent union demands (see LA) teeter on selfish and absurd.

***

If I were Czar of the schools, I would offer the following:

(1) As much in-person outdoor learning as possible. American schools are uniquely intertwined with extracurricular activities that take up a lot of on-campus land (my not huge suburban high school has four soccer fields, baseball field, softball field, and a football stadium). We should use this extra real estate to our advantage. If this space is not available, think churches, libraries, arenas, etc.

(2) Provide all parents with the option -- in-person or remote. This alleviates a lot of the friction.

(3) Adjust teacher roles based on the above. Allow teachers to make decisions based on enrollment/class size/their own health condition. Most teachers I talk to *want* to go back to work.

(4) Teacher and student orientation re masks, PPE, social distancing, etc. Make it multiple days.

(5) If indoors, keep windows open during class as much as possible.

[StarBright]

(6) Lastly, I think the CDC data supports that kids are largely spared. They have extremely low death rates, extremely low hospitalization rates, and generally do not spread COVID (there are anecdotal exceptions, just talking broad statistics). There was an article recently that there's not a single case in the world of a student passing COVID to a teacher (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-known-case-of-teacher-catching-coronavirus-from-pupils-says-scientist-3zk5g2x6z). Also, this article is really interesting (https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882316641/what-parents-can-learn-from-child-care-centers-that-stayed-open-during-lockdowns). So, I don't think teachers and teachers unions are being rational about their risks.

The thing that I find concerning about your point 6 is that it feels like the data and scenarios for fall aren't apples to apples.

So the initial data is that we don't see kids getting sick but the scenario that generated the data (kids being mostly at home since March or in heavily regulated childcare facilities) isn't the same scenario that we talking about sending children into (in our case -essentially full time/ full classes of elementary school students with "best effort" social distancing).

Additionally - when you look at data from other countries, the US is in a vastly different place than the rest of the world right now so are the situations really comparable? 

So per the NPR article on the NYC YMCA childcare we know that keeping very small cohorts of kids, not letting parents in the building, taking temperatures etc is effective for not spreading COVID-19. My understanding is that Texas removed similar rules for childcare facilities and then saw a drastic increase in cases in children and childcare workers. So then Texas put the stricter guidelines back in place and now the cases have leveled off (please someone in TX correct me if I'm wrong here).

So - do kids really not get sick when exposed? Or are kids not getting sick because we aren't exposing them?

It seems to me that in the case of the US kids aren't currently being exposed in large numbers because schools have been closed since March and the child care that is actually open is currently pretty heavily regulated for COVID protection. In other parts of the world kids are in school, but there isn't community spread at the level we see in the US.

FWIW- I agree with your "Education Czar" points and I wish our school district was implementing those types of things at the elementary level.

[NumberJohnny5]

Which means supplying all teachers with n95s. They should have as much access to n95s as local hospital workers do, and government officials need to make this a priority.

Why don't you want the teachers to have N95s?

What? Is this sarcasm?

My wife (RN) received her first N95 mask of the year last week. She doesn't work in a high risk area, but she has had Covid patients.

[ReadySetMillionaire]

(6) Lastly, I think the CDC data supports that kids are largely spared. They have extremely low death rates, extremely low hospitalization rates, and generally do not spread COVID (there are anecdotal exceptions, just talking broad statistics). There was an article recently that there's not a single case in the world of a student passing COVID to a teacher (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-known-case-of-teacher-catching-coronavirus-from-pupils-says-scientist-3zk5g2x6z). Also, this article is really interesting (https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882316641/what-parents-can-learn-from-child-care-centers-that-stayed-open-during-lockdowns). So, I don't think teachers and teachers unions are being rational about their risks.

The thing that I find concerning about your point 6 is that it feels like the data and scenarios for fall aren't apples to apples.

So the initial data is that we don't see kids getting sick but the scenario that generated the data (kids being mostly at home since March or in heavily regulated childcare facilities) isn't the same scenario that we talking about sending children into (in our case -essentially full time/ full classes of elementary school students with "best effort" social distancing).

Additionally - when you look at data from other countries, the US is in a vastly different place than the rest of the world right now so are the situations really comparable? 

So per the NPR article on the NYC YMCA childcare we know that keeping very small cohorts of kids, not letting parents in the building, taking temperatures etc is effective for not spreading COVID-19. My understanding is that Texas removed similar rules for childcare facilities and then saw a drastic increase in cases in children and childcare workers. So then Texas put the stricter guidelines back in place and now the cases have leveled off (please someone in TX correct me if I'm wrong here).

So - do kids really not get sick when exposed? Or are kids not getting sick because we aren't exposing them?

It seems to me that in the case of the US kids aren't currently being exposed in large numbers because schools have been closed since March and the child care that is actually open is currently pretty heavily regulated for COVID protection. In other parts of the world kids are in school, but there isn't community spread at the level we see in the US.

FWIW- I agree with your "Education Czar" points and I wish our school district was implementing those types of things at the elementary level.

This is all interesting “chicken or the egg analysis,” but the downside of keeping schools closed outweighs figuring out which came first.

[GuitarStv]

(6) Lastly, I think the CDC data supports that kids are largely spared. They have extremely low death rates, extremely low hospitalization rates, and generally do not spread COVID (there are anecdotal exceptions, just talking broad statistics). There was an article recently that there's not a single case in the world of a student passing COVID to a teacher (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-known-case-of-teacher-catching-coronavirus-from-pupils-says-scientist-3zk5g2x6z). Also, this article is really interesting (https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882316641/what-parents-can-learn-from-child-care-centers-that-stayed-open-during-lockdowns). So, I don't think teachers and teachers unions are being rational about their risks.

The thing that I find concerning about your point 6 is that it feels like the data and scenarios for fall aren't apples to apples.

So the initial data is that we don't see kids getting sick but the scenario that generated the data (kids being mostly at home since March or in heavily regulated childcare facilities) isn't the same scenario that we talking about sending children into (in our case -essentially full time/ full classes of elementary school students with "best effort" social distancing).

Additionally - when you look at data from other countries, the US is in a vastly different place than the rest of the world right now so are the situations really comparable? 

So per the NPR article on the NYC YMCA childcare we know that keeping very small cohorts of kids, not letting parents in the building, taking temperatures etc is effective for not spreading COVID-19. My understanding is that Texas removed similar rules for childcare facilities and then saw a drastic increase in cases in children and childcare workers. So then Texas put the stricter guidelines back in place and now the cases have leveled off (please someone in TX correct me if I'm wrong here).

So - do kids really not get sick when exposed? Or are kids not getting sick because we aren't exposing them?

It seems to me that in the case of the US kids aren't currently being exposed in large numbers because schools have been closed since March and the child care that is actually open is currently pretty heavily regulated for COVID protection. In other parts of the world kids are in school, but there isn't community spread at the level we see in the US.

FWIW- I agree with your "Education Czar" points and I wish our school district was implementing those types of things at the elementary level.

This is all interesting “chicken or the egg analysis,” but the downside of keeping schools closed outweighs figuring out which came first.

This isn't a meaningless hypothetical.  If it turns out that children haven't been spreading the virus because people have been sheltering/protecting them  . . . not because they're magically immune wouldn't that factor rather heavily into a decision to re-open schools?

[DadJokes]

If I were Czar of the schools, I would offer the following:

...

(5) If indoors, keep windows open during class as much as possible.

Due to school shootings, I don't think many schools have windows that can be opened, and that threat also means that doors can't be propped open.

[Megs193]

Which means supplying all teachers with n95s. They should have as much access to n95s as local hospital workers do, and government officials need to make this a priority.

Why don't you want the teachers to have N95s?

What? Is this sarcasm?

My wife (RN) received her first N95 mask of the year last week. She doesn't work in a high risk area, but she has had Covid patients.

I had the same experience as your wife. I don’t work with known covid patients but going to work to take care of patients in NY in April and May meant inevitably being exposed. I purchased my own N95 mask and face shield because they weren’t provided for me. I probably spent $150 total and reused each N95 mask for 2 weeks. People seem to be under the false impression that healthcare workers are being provided appropriate PPE when they aren’t.

[LetItGrow]

Which means supplying all teachers with n95s. They should have as much access to n95s as local hospital workers do, and government officials need to make this a priority.

Why don't you want the teachers to have N95s?

What? Is this sarcasm?

My wife (RN) received her first N95 mask of the year last week. She doesn't work in a high risk area, but she has had Covid patients.

Your wit was a tad to witty for some of us. Once I finally got it, impressive. Unfortunately, the tone rightfully bitter.

[mm1970]

Just an example. Let's say the teachers push back enough to have classes all online. That's about 20-25 students (we're assuming they weren't going to have overcrowded classes of over 30 students) per teacher that can't be at school during school hours. How many now have to stay at an elderly grandparent's because their parents have to work (and they're working with the public, getting exposed themselves)? Half? A quarter? Let's say it's a quarter, a somewhat unreasonably low number (at least I think so, could be wrong, I'm sure it varies by location). Anyway, that's 4-5 elderly caretakers at risk of exposure, vs one teacher. Yes, it feels good to say "we're doing the right thing and protecting teachers' lives" but unless EVERYTHING is closed...you're saying that those 4-5 grandparents' lives are less important than one teacher's. What I'm saying is, it's just not that simple. I wish it were. On the flip side, if we just open all the schools with no regard for the teacher's safety...it'll be a shit show. So, what's the right answer? No idea!

Quote from: centwise on July 24, 2020, 09:07:02 PM
"Dictate" working conditions? They want a reasonably safe and fair plan for going back to work, not zero risk.

Have the medical personnel at your wife's hospital meekly accepted their working conditions as normal, or have they (justifiably) voiced concerns? If they have decried the poor/unsafe working conditions .... should we hate them too?

They want everything to be perfect, else they want to continue online-only while continuing to be paid. As I alluded to earlier, I'd do the same. It's not really possible for (most) schools to properly social distance, and we have to realize that, but they can certainly put in some reasonable safeguards. Also, as with any negotiation, you often start off with somewhat unreasonable requests so you can "compromise" down to what you actually wanted. But generally the negotiations aren't quite so public.

Uhhh... I don't know any teachers who are stoked about online only.  Our schools are closed by the governor, for online only.  The teachers are STILL expected to teach, live via zoom, for 230 minutes a day (for 3rd-6th grades, for example).  This sucks on every level, and to assume that teachers are slackers and want things perfect is ridiculous.  Can you imagine how hard it is to get 8 or 9 year olds to pay attention on a zoom call for 4 hours a day?

I can, because I sat through that with my 2nd grader at the end of the school year.  Only 1.5 hrs 2x a week.

Online only is STILL the same # of hours a week and MORE for our teachers who now have to learn new systems for tracking teaching and assignments etc.

Also, if those grandchildren are ONLY with their parents and grandparents, it's a LOT safer than in person school with 20-25 students in a closed up room.

[wenchsenior]

Which means supplying all teachers with n95s. They should have as much access to n95s as local hospital workers do, and government officials need to make this a priority.

Why don't you want the teachers to have N95s?

What? Is this sarcasm?

My wife (RN) received her first N95 mask of the year last week. She doesn't work in a high risk area, but she has had Covid patients.

Your wit was a tad to witty for some of us. Once I finally got it, impressive. Unfortunately, the tone rightfully bitter.

I didn't get the sarcasm at all, either. I assumed it a was a straight response of someone with poor reading comprehension.

I'm used to people using this tag to indicate sarcasm:  "/s"

[JestJes]

Teaching is the only profession out there where everyone outside of teaching thinks they are an expert because they were once in a school. 

Not that it's the main point of the discussion, but it might make you feel better to know that plenty of professions have this problem.

P.S. as someone who pays property tax (with majority going to school district) and has never had a kid, it's pretty funny to see the complaints from parents about them "not getting their money's worth".

I was thinking this the whole time. Wait until they hear how much of their money is going to lucrative no-bid defense contracts. Getting your money's worth is a joke.

[JestJes]

I have mixed feelings. If a state won't allow in house restaurant dining, or has closed churches  it seems hypocritical to want to reopen the schools.  However, at the same time,  I think the teachers wanting hazard pay are being hypocritical.  You can't be that fearful of covid to be willing to expose yourself for more cash.  That's just being opportunist.  OR if like someone said upthread you're sending your own kid to ballet class and you/yourself are going to wedding showers and church.

I worked as a grocery store worker for my second job and I have to say the hazard pay made me stay a lot longer than I would have. My last day was the day the hazard pay ended.

[Kris]

Teaching is the only profession out there where everyone outside of teaching thinks they are an expert because they were once in a school. 

Not that it's the main point of the discussion, but it might make you feel better to know that plenty of professions have this problem.

P.S. as someone who pays property tax (with majority going to school district) and has never had a kid, it's pretty funny to see the complaints from parents about them "not getting their money's worth".

I was thinking this the whole time. Wait until they hear how much of their money is going to lucrative no-bid defense contracts. Getting your money's worth is a joke.

Add me to that list. I also don't have kids but pay property tax for other people's kids to go to school.

[OtherJen]

Teaching is the only profession out there where everyone outside of teaching thinks they are an expert because they were once in a school. 

Not that it's the main point of the discussion, but it might make you feel better to know that plenty of professions have this problem.

P.S. as someone who pays property tax (with majority going to school district) and has never had a kid, it's pretty funny to see the complaints from parents about them "not getting their money's worth".

I was thinking this the whole time. Wait until they hear how much of their money is going to lucrative no-bid defense contracts. Getting your money's worth is a joke.

Add me to that list. I also don't have kids but pay property tax for other people's kids to go to school.

Yep. No kids. We pay property taxes.

[Kris]

Teaching is the only profession out there where everyone outside of teaching thinks they are an expert because they were once in a school. 

Not that it's the main point of the discussion, but it might make you feel better to know that plenty of professions have this problem.

P.S. as someone who pays property tax (with majority going to school district) and has never had a kid, it's pretty funny to see the complaints from parents about them "not getting their money's worth".

I was thinking this the whole time. Wait until they hear how much of their money is going to lucrative no-bid defense contracts. Getting your money's worth is a joke.

Add me to that list. I also don't have kids but pay property tax for other people's kids to go to school.

Yep. No kids. We pay property taxes.

Also, I want to specify that I have never -- not once in my life -- bitched about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.

[mm1970]

1 It has been reported frequently that children don’t get covid19 in nearly the same numbers as adults do. This appears to begin to change in the top two classes of secondary school (after kids are about 16), and these kids can wear masks. So it could easily be perceived that teachers actually have less exposure than other workplaces, as they have much less adult contact than happens in the average workplace. Where I live they are beginning to bring in masks, but not for children under 10.

It's been posted before, but bears repeating: That early information was wrong, and older kids (10 and up) definitely catch and spread COVID-19 like adults.  There simply isn't enough data for younger kids, though the whole "young kids don't die" has also been disproven repeatedly.

And this is what many of my colleagues and I are worried about. I teach fifth grade (ages 11-12) and am absolutely concerned that it appears kids in this age range transmit COVID just as effectively as adults.

Now put 25-30 potential transmitters in a small classroom--where it is impossible to distance properly--and imagine the potential outcomes. Yet this is exactly what my district was proposing.

General question: Would people feel comfortable attending a six hour meeting at work if it were held in a small room, with 25 people in attendance? This is what we are asking teachers to do.

My office was all set to do a soft reopening in mid July. We never fully closed (we are "essential manufacturing").  But this means only the people who need to be at work were at work.  The engineers and technicians who run our equipment or test our devices.  Everyone else at home.  I share an office, and my officemate has been going in every afternoon for about a month.  His kids are 4 and 2 so he can't get anything done at home.

Well, they announced at our last company meeting "we are not opening any time soon, certainly not before the beginning of September".  Also, there are strict rules about spaces.  You must wear a mask, clean and sanitize.  You cannot eat lunch in the lunchroom - please eat outdoors (there are nearby picnic tables).  Do not have face to face meetings without masks.  Do not share open spaces for longer than 15 minutes with others. 

Everyone shares an office at our company, except the CEO.  Some people share an office with 2 other people.  The rest of the company is just big cubes.  Our conf rooms have bad ventilation.

[mm1970]

Also, I want to add that there's a lot of discussion going on about how to open safely, and it largely depends on the area/ state/ county you are in.  In our area, it's not safe.  Our school district is VERY focused on equity and had (I believe) planned to reopen 2 days a week before the state shut us down.

The district is well aware that disabled students and poor students are at risk here.  I hope that their reopening plan focuses on this, and focuses on getting these students back in the classroom sooner rather than later.  (when the county is allowed to do so).

[johndoe]

Wait until they hear how much of their money is going to lucrative no-bid defense contracts. Getting your money's worth is a joke.

I've tried arguing that one... my friend in that industry likes to go with the old "Well you woke up safe today didn't you?!"  So I guess they deserve the $ ha!

I want to specify that I have never -- not once in my life -- bitched about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.

I want to specify that I always -- any time I'm given the opportunity -- bitch about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.   :)

[Kris]

I want to specify that I always -- any time I'm given the opportunity -- bitch about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.   :)

Not sure that's something to be proud of.

[mm1970]

I want to specify that I always -- any time I'm given the opportunity -- bitch about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.   :)

Not sure that's something to be proud of.

I used to go on regular walks with people that I met through the Breast Cancer 3 day walk.

On one day, I met a new woman - she was in her 60s I think.  I hadn't joined the group in awhile.  So she wasn't new, just new to me.

We got to talking about schools, as she grew up in my neighborhood (but didn't live there any longer) and went to my neighborhood schools.  Then she insisted that she should get a discount on property taxes because she didn't have kids.  Ha, I'm sure she thought I'd let THAT one go.  So, no.  I didn't.

First and foremost, YOU WENT TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS.  You are, in fact, partially paying back society for the fact that YOU went to public school.
NUMBER TWO.  This is California.  Prop 13 - you ALREADY get a discount on your property taxes by virtue of the fact that you bought your house decades ago, so, suck it.
NUMBER THREE - approximately X% of your property taxes go to schools (Most recent data is 47.5%)

The cost to educate a student today, in our district, is $10k a year.  In fact, we are not a basic aid district, which means our property tax values are not high enough to support our schools - we rely on the state to "make up the difference".  $10k x 13 years = $130,000.   My property tax bill is approximately $8000 a year right now, but I think it was $7k when we were having this convo.  However, only 47.5% of that $7k goes to the schools, so that is $3325 per year.  So, $130,000 / $3325 is 39 years.

You know, once you have paid property taxes for 39 years to repay society for your own public education, then we can talk about cutting you a break on your taxes.  However, if you own property WITH your husband, then you have two educations to repay. 

I don't think I was her favorite person that day.

[OtherJen]

Wait until they hear how much of their money is going to lucrative no-bid defense contracts. Getting your money's worth is a joke.

I've tried arguing that one... my friend in that industry likes to go with the old "Well you woke up safe today didn't you?!"  So I guess they deserve the $ ha!

I want to specify that I have never -- not once in my life -- bitched about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.

I want to specify that I always -- any time I'm given the opportunity -- bitch about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.   :)

Part of living in a community. You could live somewhere else.

[DadJokes]

Our county voted in March to raise the local sales tax to give teachers a raise. Per the proposition, x% of the sales tax increase must go to teacher salaries. The belief was that if people didn't voluntarily vote for a sales tax increase, the county would just increase property taxes instead, which they wouldn't need the people to vote for.

My wife's a teacher, so I'm all for increasing any form of taxes if the raise she gets is greater than the new taxes we pay. However, if I had to choose between the two taxes, I'd gladly choose a sales tax, since that's easier to avoid without moving. I just have to not be a "consumerist sucka."

The vote passed. Then we had a tornado take out a couple schools. Then the pandemic happened, and sales tax revenue dropped off a cliff. I'm curious as to how the raises are going to happen. My wife usually gets her annual raise in August, so I guess we'll find out.

[Cranky]

Ideally if teachers are not OK with going back to work they should be placed on long term unpaid leave till they feel “safe”.  There are plenty of unemployed, less vulnerable people that could make adequate/reliable replacements.

Are there?  Currently, 1/3rd of America's teachers are at high risk from covi because of their age.  Are there enough qualified people with a teaching certificate and the required degrees to fill that gap?  Honest question, I don't know those numbers.  My suspicion is that the answer is no though.

According to the NYT today, over half of the public school employees are not teachers (and are paid a heck of a lot less than teachers.)

I’ve also been interested to learn, I. Online discussions, that many European school systems have inatructional hours that are, to my ear, part time.

[LetItGrow]

Which means supplying all teachers with n95s. They should have as much access to n95s as local hospital workers do, and government officials need to make this a priority.

Why don't you want the teachers to have N95s?

What? Is this sarcasm?

My wife (RN) received her first N95 mask of the year last week. She doesn't work in a high risk area, but she has had Covid patients.

Your wit was a tad to witty for some of us. Once I finally got it, impressive. Unfortunately, the tone rightfully bitter.

I didn't get the sarcasm at all, either. I assumed it a was a straight response of someone with poor reading comprehension.

I'm used to people using this tag to indicate sarcasm:  "/s"

It’s not sarcastic, it’s witty.

[Kris]

Meanwhile, I’m just gonna leave this here. Covid hospitalizations of children have risen 23% in Florida.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/27/health/florida-covid-children-hospitalizations/index.html

[LetItGrow]

Wait until they hear how much of their money is going to lucrative no-bid defense contracts. Getting your money's worth is a joke.

I've tried arguing that one... my friend in that industry likes to go with the old "Well you woke up safe today didn't you?!"  So I guess they deserve the $ ha!

I want to specify that I have never -- not once in my life -- bitched about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.

I want to specify that I always -- any time I'm given the opportunity -- bitch about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.   :)

Part of living in a community. You could live somewhere else.

Pretty dangerous comment, that can go way south way fast...

[Kris]

Wait until they hear how much of their money is going to lucrative no-bid defense contracts. Getting your money's worth is a joke.

I've tried arguing that one... my friend in that industry likes to go with the old "Well you woke up safe today didn't you?!"  So I guess they deserve the $ ha!

I want to specify that I have never -- not once in my life -- bitched about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.

I want to specify that I always -- any time I'm given the opportunity -- bitch about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.   :)

Part of living in a community. You could live somewhere else.

Pretty dangerous comment, that can go way south way fast...

Whatever. Conservatives tell liberals to leave the country if they don’t like it all. The. Time.

[DadJokes]

Wait until they hear how much of their money is going to lucrative no-bid defense contracts. Getting your money's worth is a joke.

I've tried arguing that one... my friend in that industry likes to go with the old "Well you woke up safe today didn't you?!"  So I guess they deserve the $ ha!

I want to specify that I have never -- not once in my life -- bitched about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.

I want to specify that I always -- any time I'm given the opportunity -- bitch about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.   :)

Part of living in a community. You could live somewhere else.

Pretty dangerous comment, that can go way south way fast...

How so? I'm all for people moving to an area that better suits their ideals.

[Caroline PF]

Which means supplying all teachers with n95s. They should have as much access to n95s as local hospital workers do, and government officials need to make this a priority.

Why don't you want the teachers to have N95s?

What? Is this sarcasm?

My wife (RN) received her first N95 mask of the year last week. She doesn't work in a high risk area, but she has had Covid patients.

I had the same experience as your wife. I don’t work with known covid patients but going to work to take care of patients in NY in April and May meant inevitably being exposed. I purchased my own N95 mask and face shield because they weren’t provided for me. I probably spent $150 total and reused each N95 mask for 2 weeks. People seem to be under the false impression that healthcare workers are being provided appropriate PPE when they aren’t.

Ah, got it. I'm sorry about both of your experiences in not getting PPE. I, too, am a healthcare worker. I got 2 n95s issued to me in March. I just got my first replacement, as one wasn't sealing around my nose any more. I work with some COVID patients doing aerosolizing procedures. I have used the same 2 masks for over 4 months. I have access to PPE, but I'm not sure you can call it appropriate.

Despite that, I still think that teachers should have access to some of that limited supply. But all of this is wishful thinking. Frankly, I'm pissed that after 5 months, we still haven't really ramped up production of n95s. The greatest country in the world, and we still are rationing PPE. It's disgusting, and I wish our politicians had made different decisions, that, you know, put their people first.

[Caroline PF]

I want to specify that I always -- any time I'm given the opportunity -- bitch about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.   :)

Not sure that's something to be proud of.

I used to go on regular walks with people that I met through the Breast Cancer 3 day walk.

On one day, I met a new woman - she was in her 60s I think.  I hadn't joined the group in awhile.  So she wasn't new, just new to me.

We got to talking about schools, as she grew up in my neighborhood (but didn't live there any longer) and went to my neighborhood schools.  Then she insisted that she should get a discount on property taxes because she didn't have kids.  Ha, I'm sure she thought I'd let THAT one go.  So, no.  I didn't.

First and foremost, YOU WENT TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS.  You are, in fact, partially paying back society for the fact that YOU went to public school.
NUMBER TWO.  This is California.  Prop 13 - you ALREADY get a discount on your property taxes by virtue of the fact that you bought your house decades ago, so, suck it.
NUMBER THREE - approximately X% of your property taxes go to schools (Most recent data is 47.5%)

The cost to educate a student today, in our district, is $10k a year.  In fact, we are not a basic aid district, which means our property tax values are not high enough to support our schools - we rely on the state to "make up the difference".  $10k x 13 years = $130,000.   My property tax bill is approximately $8000 a year right now, but I think it was $7k when we were having this convo.  However, only 47.5% of that $7k goes to the schools, so that is $3325 per year.  So, $130,000 / $3325 is 39 years.

You know, once you have paid property taxes for 39 years to repay society for your own public education, then we can talk about cutting you a break on your taxes.  However, if you own property WITH your husband, then you have two educations to repay. 

I don't think I was her favorite person that day.

It's even more than that. It's not just your own education that you are repaying. If you don't have kids (and even if you do), who will take care of you in your old age? People who are being educated by the public school system you are paying for today. You are paying to ensure that you get good care at the end of your life, because you will be depending on other people's children to care for you.

[Kris]

You’re paying for public education, and you’re also paying for prisons.

Which one do you think is more cost effective?

[GuitarStv]

You’re paying for public education, and you’re also paying for prisons.

Which one do you think is more cost effective?

Younger Guitarstv did not see any appreciable difference between the two to be honest.  :P

[LetItGrow]

Wait until they hear how much of their money is going to lucrative no-bid defense contracts. Getting your money's worth is a joke.

I've tried arguing that one... my friend in that industry likes to go with the old "Well you woke up safe today didn't you?!"  So I guess they deserve the $ ha!

I want to specify that I have never -- not once in my life -- bitched about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.

I want to specify that I always -- any time I'm given the opportunity -- bitch about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.   :)

Part of living in a community. You could live somewhere else.

Pretty dangerous comment, that can go way south way fast...

Whatever. Conservatives tell liberals to leave the country if they don’t like it all. The. Time.

Goodness, so now if 'they' do it, we can do it?

If women don’t like how they are treated in an office, they can go work somewhere else. If the 'blank' race doesn’t like how they are treated in this town, they can go somewhere else. That’s the ignorant direction I meant.

Anyway, more on topic, this teacher thing, whatever it is, seems to be really starting to percolate. I didn’t know much about it until this thread, but now it has been on the local news. Going to be a very precarious next couple months. Hope there is more smoke than fire, but boy, it is likely to have bad, far reaching, ramifications. Glad we have no school age kids.

[OtherJen]

Wait until they hear how much of their money is going to lucrative no-bid defense contracts. Getting your money's worth is a joke.

I've tried arguing that one... my friend in that industry likes to go with the old "Well you woke up safe today didn't you?!"  So I guess they deserve the $ ha!

I want to specify that I have never -- not once in my life -- bitched about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.

I want to specify that I always -- any time I'm given the opportunity -- bitch about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.   :)

Part of living in a community. You could live somewhere else.

Pretty dangerous comment, that can go way south way fast...

Whatever. Conservatives tell liberals to leave the country if they don’t like it all. The. Time.

Goodness, so now if 'they' do it, we can do it?

If women don’t like how they are treated in an office, they can go work somewhere else. If the 'blank' race doesn’t like how they are treated in this town, they can go somewhere else. That’s the ignorant direction I meant.

Anyway, more on topic, this teacher thing, whatever it is, seems to be really starting to percolate. I didn’t know much about it until this thread, but now it has been on the local news. Going to be a very precarious next couple months. Hope there is more smoke than fire, but boy, it is likely to have bad, far reaching, ramifications. Glad we have no school age kids.

Wow, that escalated quickly. I meant live in a district with much lower taxes and a lower ranking, like I do. I don't have kids so I don't care about living in a top-notch district. You could also live in a sub-1000-sq.ft. house like I do. Lots of options that don't involve paying through the nose for a fancy school district.

[Kris]

Wait until they hear how much of their money is going to lucrative no-bid defense contracts. Getting your money's worth is a joke.

I've tried arguing that one... my friend in that industry likes to go with the old "Well you woke up safe today didn't you?!"  So I guess they deserve the $ ha!

I want to specify that I have never -- not once in my life -- bitched about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.

I want to specify that I always -- any time I'm given the opportunity -- bitch about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.   :)

Part of living in a community. You could live somewhere else.

Pretty dangerous comment, that can go way south way fast...

Whatever. Conservatives tell liberals to leave the country if they don’t like it all. The. Time.

Goodness, so now if 'they' do it, we can do it?

If women don’t like how they are treated in an office, they can go work somewhere else. If the 'blank' race doesn’t like how they are treated in this town, they can go somewhere else. That’s the ignorant direction I meant.

Anyway, more on topic, this teacher thing, whatever it is, seems to be really starting to percolate. I didn’t know much about it until this thread, but now it has been on the local news. Going to be a very precarious next couple months. Hope there is more smoke than fire, but boy, it is likely to have bad, far reaching, ramifications. Glad we have no school age kids.

Wow, that escalated quickly. I meant live in a district with much lower taxes and a lower ranking, like I do. I don't have kids so I don't care about living in a top-notch district. You could also live in a sub-1000-sq.ft. house like I do. Lots of options that don't involve paying through the nose for a fancy school district.

Exactly.

[johndoe]

I want to specify that I always -- any time I'm given the opportunity -- bitch about paying property taxes for a school district whose services I will never, ever personally use.   :)

Not sure that's something to be proud of.

Ha well if it makes you feel better that was tongue-in-cheek.  These posts are as close as I get to bringing up my thoughts on the topic (and I won't post again as we're hijacking the thread and I'm not sure I'm adding any value).  Maybe this discussion is a nice illustration of the Lumbergh meme and "everyone is an expert in every field".  Again, any time there are public funds people are going to complain (rightfully so).

In my ideal community, people make decisions and pay accordingly.  Of course my ideal community will have people in need, and those in a position to help would.  But if your salary is twice mine and you have 5 kids in the school system while I have none, you can guess who I would suggest pay more to the school. 

I understand that my outlook is in the minority, and that's fine.  I don't mind living in a community of differing outlooks; I'm not going to move out of my hometown because X% of my neighbors prefer free healthcare or aggressive foreign policy etc.  We're all adults, we're allowed to disagree.  It's a bit funny that we, as a society, get so polarized over political topics...I've wondered how much my life would really be different had McCain and Clinton been in office.  Life goes on, it's more beneficial to worry about other topics- like how to improve my own situation.  Ultimately I think the person best motivated to take care of you is you (IMO that lesson is mimicked in frugality / FIRE).

[NumberJohnny5]

Ah, got it. I'm sorry about both of your experiences in not getting PPE. I, too, am a healthcare worker. I got 2 n95s issued to me in March. I just got my first replacement, as one wasn't sealing around my nose any more. I work with some COVID patients doing aerosolizing procedures. I have used the same 2 masks for over 4 months. I have access to PPE, but I'm not sure you can call it appropriate.

Well, the hospital is supposed to provide an N95 if the patient has an aerosolizing procedure. Solution? Just say everything is no longer an aerosolizing procedure. Administering a nasal swab test to a patient displaying symptoms (or has previously tested positive)? Well, that's not an aerosolizing event, surgical mask is all you need. Even though patients often sneeze.

On top of that, they briefly said a surgical mask was considered part of the uniform, meaning you were responsible for procuring them yourself. Think that lasted about a week. We actually had plenty of surgical masks (eBay order of KN95 masks turned out to be surgical masks, I've had so many issues getting PPE for my wife; no worries as we now have plenty and probably got Covid anyway so it doesn't matter).

[obstinate]

Teachers in general, I have no problem with. I think they're great. The particular teacher we had last year put forth astonishingly little effort on the whole online learning thing during the latter portion of the previous school year. I think for the last five weeks, the totality of the work she assigned was the same worksheet with five different vocabulary words each week. That plus twenty minutes of morning meetings with all the kids was the extent of her work.

Now, I'm willing to admit that it's possible I'm missing an enormous behind the scenes effort. But it felt to me like she had just given up. I've heard a lot of similar stories from other parents of young children. I would be willing to be convinced this was a rare phenomenon but the data I've been exposed to suggests it was not particularly rare. And so I'm a little skeptical when the teachers/schools tell us that online learning can work. If four months wasn't enough to figure it out, how am I to trust that the summer is going to have been enough to make things different?

That being said, do teachers have the right to do what is best for their own safety? Of course. Everyone should employ the power they have to change the world for their own best interest, at least up to a reasonable point. But I can't help think that if the schools had done a better job in the Spring, there wouldn't be so much angst about what is going to happen this Fall.

That does not excuse online vitriol against the teachers. I'm not involved in that and I'll 100% call it out when I see it. But I hope it explains some of my personal ambivalence toward online learning this Fall. I'd prefer if the kids were back in school, personally.

[tooqk4u22]

Meanwhile, I’m just gonna leave this here. Covid hospitalizations of children have risen 23% in Florida.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/27/health/florida-covid-children-hospitalizations/index.html

This is the kind of statistical nonsense that drives me nuts.   Spew out one number with no context or other relevant details.  The 23% number above is accurate as referenced in the article but other  figures that give a better picture include cases among children had risen 34% from 23,170 to 31,150 while hospitalizations rose at a slower rate of 23% and equated to a an increase of 57 children or 0.71% of the increased cases. 

To be honest, you chose the wrong number to support your side because the number is so small relative to the population.  You should have focused on the fact that there are an additional 7,980 children that are positive for covid (likely asymptomatic) that if schools were open today would be permeating amongst teachers. 

I will ignore for the moment that Florida is and has been an example of stupidity throughout all of this both in terms of its leadership and population.   

[tooqk4u22]

Teachers in general, I have no problem with. I think they're great. The particular teacher we had last year put forth astonishingly little effort on the whole online learning thing during the latter portion of the previous school year. I think for the last five weeks, the totality of the work she assigned was the same worksheet with five different vocabulary words each week. That plus twenty minutes of morning meetings with all the kids was the extent of her work.

Now, I'm willing to admit that it's possible I'm missing an enormous behind the scenes effort. But it felt to me like she had just given up. I've heard a lot of similar stories from other parents of young children. I would be willing to be convinced this was a rare phenomenon but the data I've been exposed to suggests it was not particularly rare. And so I'm a little skeptical when the teachers/schools tell us that online learning can work. If four months wasn't enough to figure it out, how am I to trust that the summer is going to have been enough to make things different?

That being said, do teachers have the right to do what is best for their own safety? Of course. Everyone should employ the power they have to change the world for their own best interest, at least up to a reasonable point. But I can't help think that if the schools had done a better job in the Spring, there wouldn't be so much angst about what is going to happen this Fall.

That does not excuse online vitriol against the teachers. I'm not involved in that and I'll 100% call it out when I see it. But I hope it explains some of my personal ambivalence toward online learning this Fall. I'd prefer if the kids were back in school, personally.

+1  I suspect this was the experience of most families during spring shutdown and not the exception.   But again I think its reasonable to give a "Pass" on some of this do to the extenuating experiences and that most school districts, teachers and families were not equipped for this.   But its been 6 months now so there is no excusing not being prepared for some combination of in school / online learning.   

For fucks sake, how hard is to prop a laptop infront of teacher for those students that can't return to in school setting and do a hybrid - every fucking business in the world is doing it. 

[Kris]

Meanwhile, I’m just gonna leave this here. Covid hospitalizations of children have risen 23% in Florida.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/27/health/florida-covid-children-hospitalizations/index.html

This is the kind of statistical nonsense that drives me nuts.   Spew out one number with no context or other relevant details.  The 23% number above is accurate as referenced in the article but other  figures that give a better picture include cases among children had risen 34% from 23,170 to 31,150 while hospitalizations rose at a slower rate of 23% and equated to a an increase of 57 children or 0.71% of the increased cases. 

To be honest, you chose the wrong number to support your side because the number is so small relative to the population.  You should have focused on the fact that there are an additional 7,980 children that are positive for covid (likely asymptomatic) that if schools were open today would be permeating amongst teachers. 

I will ignore for the moment that Florida is and has been an example of stupidity throughout all of this both in terms of its leadership and population.

I shared the article that gave this information. Not sure how that is “spewing out nonsense.”

[LetItGrow]

+1  I suspect this was the experience of most families during spring shutdown and not the exception.   But again I think its reasonable to give a "Pass" on some of this do to the extenuating experiences and that most school districts, teachers and families were not equipped for this.   But its been 6 months now so there is no excusing not being prepared for some combination of in school / online learning.   

For fucks sake, how hard is to prop a laptop infront of teacher for those students that can't return to in school setting and do a hybrid - every fucking business in the world is doing it.

I agree there is no excuse...but what about the schools, or just parts of a school, that have not used the time wisely and prepped for various outcomes. It will be hard for parents to 1) know that, and 2) react quickly.

The more I read and hear the more it seems like there is going to be a wide range of outcomes. A little like my area of my company: the gap between high and low performers seemed to increase when we were all sent home to work.

[Just Joe]

(5) If indoors, keep windows open during class as much as possible.

The older schools I attended as a child had a wall of glass in every classroom. Probably hugely inefficient and a big distraction to a kid like me but I loved it.

Our teen's modern schools hardly have a window in them now. More wall space for teaching materials, etc. Easier to darken the room for video projector. Not sure they can open the building very well for cooling anymore. They are reliant on HVAC. Unfortunate really.

[FIence!]

I will say that I wish I got paid as much as Drs dentist and Nurses.

Well, here's a reason. How much do you think nurses make in relation to teachers?

This may be part of the eye-roll teachers get. There seems to be an almost cultish attitude that teachers are "underpaid," while other professions are not. I know someone who recently retired as a teacher making 90k a year (yes, she basically had three months off every summer of her working life) who would complain about the things she couldn't afford. I don't personally know any nurses who make that much (not saying they don't exist, but they are going to be specialty nurses for the most part, i.e. nurse anesthesiologist). My cousin is an experienced nurse who recently said she has never surpassed 45k a year.

If you look up the average salaries of nurses and teachers in the US, they are competitive, except teachers work fewer hours per calendar year. In many cases if you calculated by average contact hours, teachers make more. Teachers also tend to have union contracts that include benefits that many other jobs don't have.