Author Topic: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?  (Read 27642 times)

teacherwithamustache

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Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« on: July 21, 2020, 06:35:48 PM »
I hope all of you are doing well and able to socially distance during these crazy times. This post is going to come off as a bit of a rant but hopefully it will lead to some good dialogue. I trust a lot of your rationale opinions and like to believe that I can see problems and solutions from many perspectives.  Can someone please explain to me in a calm manner what all of the hatred and venom is towards teachers that do not feel safe going back to work?  I realize twitter is not the best society indicator out there but the amount of anger towards teachers is crazy.

Teaching is the only profession out there where everyone outside of teaching thinks they are an expert because they were once in a school.  Some of these experts that state that micro schools are the solution have never stepped foot in a truly inner city school or a very Rural School.  I agree with a lot of the sentiment out there where micro schools could work in a Suburban Setting with Nuclear or highly involved families.  This is not the majority of the United States. 

My concerns about Covid 19 and coming back to school.  I just need an answer so I know how to plan to these scenarios.  Do other professional workers not know the answers to these questions involving their work?:
1. If I catch C19 from a student will I have to burn my sick days or use workers comp days?
2. If a kid or fellow teacher catches C19 how and when will I be informed?
3. If there is a sub shortage how many classes do I have to cover a week?  Will I get paid extra?
4. If the policy is every kid has to wear a mask and a kid refuses and then the AP refuses to hold him or her accountable then who do I turn the AP into?


When I post these concerns on Twitter or FB I get flamed?  I dont understand why?  Then I read about teachers that are legit scared about returning to work and they get roasted.  If someone could start a dialogue so I can further understand this I would appreciate it.





GuitarStv

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2020, 06:41:54 PM »
These are all fair and valid concerns.  Teachers are likely in for a world of risk/hurt as soon as school gets back in.

You have to remember that most people are idiots.  They have no idea the work or difficulty involved in teaching children . . . but they do see several months off during the summer.  Not sure about the US, but most teachers in Canada are unionized, which also draws wrath (because some people believe that it's better everyone is dragged down to the lowest common denominator rather than a few are able to fight for better working conditions).  Then you have the large number of people who had a shitty teacher at some point in their lives and have decided that all teachers are assholes and need to suffer after that experience.

Cranky

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2020, 06:54:18 PM »
It is going to be an exciting school year for sure.

I feel like recently a lot of people have also become MDs, as well.

TeresaB

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2020, 07:05:31 PM »
I'm not a teacher but I am a classroom aide. What I find frustrating is the teachers who are acting like they are the only people who are endangered by COVID. Not saying you're doing this! But I definitely have teacher friends on my Facebook who are eating out, shopping in person for non-essentials, going on vacation, their kids are going to classes, they're having playdates, etc, with no concern for any of the people who work any of these places, but if you want school open it means you want them to die. Well listen dude, if cases are too high in your area for school to open then cases are too high for you to have a normal life in every other respect!

I think it's absolutely a good idea to push for answers to these questions from your admin. My school has been very upfront about what they do and don't know, what they're planning, what they need to see from the government, how they plan to keep kids safe, etc. I haven't heard anything about sick time but I haven't asked because I don't have any paid time off anyway. They are buying us PPE though. I think part of what's causing the drama is that conversations about school opening are happening on a very broad level but it really needs to be a very local decision based on the resources available.

Sibley

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2020, 07:07:14 PM »
People are scared, and that makes them do crappy things. Hating on teachers is just the current version.

I do think that at some level, even the people who are anti-mask or covid deniers are scared. Perhaps especially those people. They may not even be aware of it. Fear makes us do very weird things.

mm1970

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2020, 07:09:21 PM »
These are all fair and valid concerns.  Teachers are likely in for a world of risk/hurt as soon as school gets back in.

You have to remember that most people are idiots.  They have no idea the work or difficulty involved in teaching children . . . but they do see several months off during the summer.  Not sure about the US, but most teachers in Canada are unionized, which also draws wrath (because some people believe that it's better everyone is dragged down to the lowest common denominator rather than a few are able to fight for better working conditions).  Then you have the large number of people who had a shitty teacher at some point in their lives and have decided that all teachers are assholes and need to suffer after that experience.
Basically this.

Oh, and "teachers are stupid, and just babysitters, and need to be "put in their place". "You think you are special."  Whatever.

It's pretty maddening.

I've spent quite a bit of time at our elementary school (I've had kids there for 10 years now).  I know the drill.  I have a third grader.  There's no way he's keeping a mask on his face for hours.  Not even 5 minutes.  Plus, kids are gross.  We can't even keep head lice out of schools for crying out loud!

Anyway, rant over.  I feel your pain.  I don't think it is safe to go back to school in many places.  I think we need to have pretty clear requirements on the new case trend, number of active cases AND need to have cleaning and class protocols.  Our state has put those requirements in place.  If we don't meet them, we don't open.

use2betrix

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2020, 07:11:48 PM »
I would like to see how people with such strong opinions about “not working during Covid” would have changing opinions if they did not continue to get paid.

It seems that there’s a lot of people that just don’t want to go back to work, even though they are still getting paid.

A lot of people don’t have that option, they don’t get to work, and they don’t get paid.

Personally, I’m ready for a long, unpaid sabbatical, so I’d love it if my job shut down for a couple months, even without pay. I know that I’m not the norm in America in that regards, however.

trollwithamustache

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2020, 07:13:01 PM »
so, if you catch COVID, no matter how, why would you not use up your sick days? isn't this the kind of thing they are actually for?

teacherwithamustache

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2020, 07:17:03 PM »
I'm not a teacher but I am a classroom aide. What I find frustrating is the teachers who are acting like they are the only people who are endangered by COVID. Not saying you're doing this! But I definitely have teacher friends on my Facebook who are eating out, shopping in person for non-essentials, going on vacation, their kids are going to classes, they're having playdates, etc, with no concern for any of the people who work any of these places, but if you want school open it means you want them to die. Well listen dude, if cases are too high in your area for school to open then cases are too high for you to have a normal life in every other respect!

I think it's absolutely a good idea to push for answers to these questions from your admin. My school has been very upfront about what they do and don't know, what they're planning, what they need to see from the government, how they plan to keep kids safe, etc. I haven't heard anything about sick time but I haven't asked because I don't have any paid time off anyway. They are buying us PPE though. I think part of what's causing the drama is that conversations about school opening are happening on a very broad level but it really needs to be a very local decision based on the resources available.

This is a very good point about Teachers and their spending.  I would say that teachers are the worse budget/saving/financial savvy profession out there.  Maybe I am around them all day so I see it but I think I have good perspective skills.  I try to help them where I can but these spendy pants 40k a year salary driving a new Lexus teachers are just too much.  My family and I have been sitting at home all lockdown playing board games and hanging out. 

teacherwithamustache

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2020, 07:22:05 PM »
so, if you catch COVID, no matter how, why would you not use up your sick days? isn't this the kind of thing they are actually for?

Like I said in the original post I just need to know what will happen so I can plan.  The Workers Comp argument is that the school made it an unsafe environment for me to work in and that is the reason I caught C19.  Therefore it should fall under workers comp as to why I got sick and missed days.  Every state is different with teachers and their sick days, but please realize it is a hot button teacher issue.

TeresaB

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2020, 07:24:05 PM »
I'm not a teacher but I am a classroom aide. What I find frustrating is the teachers who are acting like they are the only people who are endangered by COVID. Not saying you're doing this! But I definitely have teacher friends on my Facebook who are eating out, shopping in person for non-essentials, going on vacation, their kids are going to classes, they're having playdates, etc, with no concern for any of the people who work any of these places, but if you want school open it means you want them to die. Well listen dude, if cases are too high in your area for school to open then cases are too high for you to have a normal life in every other respect!

I think it's absolutely a good idea to push for answers to these questions from your admin. My school has been very upfront about what they do and don't know, what they're planning, what they need to see from the government, how they plan to keep kids safe, etc. I haven't heard anything about sick time but I haven't asked because I don't have any paid time off anyway. They are buying us PPE though. I think part of what's causing the drama is that conversations about school opening are happening on a very broad level but it really needs to be a very local decision based on the resources available.

This is a very good point about Teachers and their spending.  I would say that teachers are the worse budget/saving/financial savvy profession out there.  Maybe I am around them all day so I see it but I think I have good perspective skills.  I try to help them where I can but these spendy pants 40k a year salary driving a new Lexus teachers are just too much.  My family and I have been sitting at home all lockdown playing board games and hanging out.
Oh I didn't even mean it from a financial angle.... Just that it comes across very selfish when they are willing to send their kid to the ballet class, but everyone else who wants to send their kid to actual school is a bad guy.

My huge concern with school reopening is these crazy hybrid schedules. They do not pay me enough to pay for that much extra childcare for my own kids. Lol

teacherwithamustache

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2020, 07:24:59 PM »
I would like to see how people with such strong opinions about “not working during Covid” would have changing opinions if they did not continue to get paid.

It seems that there’s a lot of people that just don’t want to go back to work, even though they are still getting paid.

A lot of people don’t have that option, they don’t get to work, and they don’t get paid.

Personally, I’m ready for a long, unpaid sabbatical, so I’d love it if my job shut down for a couple months, even without pay. I know that I’m not the norm in America in that regards, however.

Agreed! Trust me Teachers are really into the FIRE lifestyle either.

ambimammular

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2020, 07:32:24 PM »
I'm an aide, too, in a kindergarten classroom. Or I was until March. I'm not planning to go back to the school, because there is no way it's possible to be safe. Kindergarten is so hands-on. These are 5 year olds who have only been with their own familes. They have no impulse control or concept of germs. They will not be able to social distance, let alone keep from touching their classmates. Half our last class hadn't learned how to blow their noses at the begining of the school year. I give it two weeks before schools shut down again.

I feel horrible for the teachers. So much classroom time will be lost to hygene procedures. I guess I'm just glad I can nope out of there.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 07:36:53 PM by ambimammular »

Gin1984

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2020, 07:39:45 PM »
These are all fair and valid concerns.  Teachers are likely in for a world of risk/hurt as soon as school gets back in.

You have to remember that most people are idiots.  They have no idea the work or difficulty involved in teaching children . . . but they do see several months off during the summer.  Not sure about the US, but most teachers in Canada are unionized, which also draws wrath (because some people believe that it's better everyone is dragged down to the lowest common denominator rather than a few are able to fight for better working conditions).  Then you have the large number of people who had a shitty teacher at some point in their lives and have decided that all teachers are assholes and need to suffer after that experience.
Basically this.

Oh, and "teachers are stupid, and just babysitters, and need to be "put in their place". "You think you are special."  Whatever.

It's pretty maddening.

I've spent quite a bit of time at our elementary school (I've had kids there for 10 years now).  I know the drill.  I have a third grader.  There's no way he's keeping a mask on his face for hours.  Not even 5 minutes.  Plus, kids are gross.  We can't even keep head lice out of schools for crying out loud!

Anyway, rant over.  I feel your pain.  I don't think it is safe to go back to school in many places.  I think we need to have pretty clear requirements on the new case trend, number of active cases AND need to have cleaning and class protocols.  Our state has put those requirements in place.  If we don't meet them, we don't open.
I've seen this said other places and truly do not understand it.  We teach our children to wear clothes, why is it impossible to teach them to wear a mask?  I have a three and seven year old and both can wear masks properly for over 30 minutes (the seven year old for longer obviously).  My biggest concern is that my three year old does not take it off properly.

MayDay

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2020, 07:42:00 PM »
Reasons I am irritated at teachers and/or schools in general (none of this is aimed at the OP!):

1. Many of us have to go to work and risk exposure. Because that's our job and we need to make a salary..teachers aren't a special snowflake that is exempt from this economic reality.*

2.  Yes childcare is an aspect of k12 school. It always has been, stop acting brand new. Most families have all adults working.

3. Companies have come up with plans and implemented them. I expect schools to be able to do the same. I expect more than "it's hard, we give up". I don't expect schools to magic up money but I do expect them to bring plans and options to the community and state and say "if you want in person learning this is what it will cost and the resources we need" and ask for those. I believe a lot of communities would find the money if there was a specific ask.

4. If a district did a shit job in the spring don't expect people to think they'll do better in the fall, especially in absence of a specific plan.

*Are teachers at higher risk than other jobs? Some jobs yes, some no. Anyone who feels like they didn't sign up for that risk can absolutely choose to leave!


gimmi80

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2020, 07:48:24 PM »
People are pissed at teachers because they want a good value for the money they pay in school taxes.

School teachers should make a sacrifice and go teach the kids, that is the profession they chose. If they don't like it they can change it.

We ask for sacrifice from doctors, dentists, nurses, and all essential workers, many of which were in the trenches with no protective equipment, and some of whom died.

I don't see why teachers should have a preferential treatment.
If they don't want to go back to work, quit, but don't live on my tax dollars, staying home.
we will replace the missing teachers with kahnacademy.org or something like that, and increase the salary of the one that stick around. that's what I would do
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 07:52:04 PM by gimmi80 »

Dictionary Time

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2020, 08:40:46 PM »
so, if you catch COVID, no matter how, why would you not use up your sick days? isn't this the kind of thing they are actually for?

Like I said in the original post I just need to know what will happen so I can plan.  The Workers Comp argument is that the school made it an unsafe environment for me to work in and that is the reason I caught C19.  Therefore it should fall under workers comp as to why I got sick and missed days.  Every state is different with teachers and their sick days, but please realize it is a hot button teacher issue.


I’m no employment lawyer so feel free to disregard.

But I’ve heard this a lot. And thought it at work myself. They’re putting me at risk so it’s on them if/when I get infected.

But... when it’s endemic now, how can you say or prove who the heck you got it from? It’s not like getting aids at work from a needle. I can test the needle, I can rule out other transmission. But for covid, it could be the grocery store, your dentist, pool guy, spouse. They don’t even need to be symptomatic.

Will you be able to say this is an on the job injury? Especially if you end up dead or permanently disabled.

teacherwithamustache

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2020, 08:58:04 PM »
People are pissed at teachers because they want a good value for the money they pay in school taxes.

School teachers should make a sacrifice and go teach the kids, that is the profession they chose. If they don't like it they can change it.

We ask for sacrifice from doctors, dentists, nurses, and all essential workers, many of which were in the trenches with no protective equipment, and some of whom died.

I don't see why teachers should have a preferential treatment.
If they don't want to go back to work, quit, but don't live on my tax dollars, staying home.
we will replace the missing teachers with kahnacademy.org or something like that, and increase the salary of the one that stick around. that's what I would do

I hate property taxes as well. I am also on the if you dont like it quit boat.  I will say that I wish I got paid as much as Drs dentist and Nurses.

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2020, 09:37:01 PM »
Some of this is a real stretch. Doctors & nurses understood they would be working with sick patients when they signed up for their jobs. (This isn't to say that doctors & nurses should be working in unsafe conditions - they should have as much protection as possible in their jobs.)

Other essential workers should receive the appropriate safe guarding to at least drastically reduce risk. Take a grocery store clerk, for example. In most places, there is mask wearing, plexiglass shields at the register, six feet social distancing, etc.

What we're saying is that we're paying taxes to teachers, and we know we can't reduce risk due to budgets to come up with ways to make it safe. We can't reduce classroom size, or double the teaching staff, or somehow get kindergartners to wear masks. So, the teachers should just suck it up & go to school because of your taxes? They aren't in the military. That's not the arrangement they made.

I pay an absolutely obscene amount of money in property taxes. A few thoughts, the schools actually don't receive the lion's share where we live. I also don't think my paying taxes necessitates others risking their lives. And, I want my teenage kids back in school as much as the next person.

leighb

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2020, 09:56:19 PM »
In my neck of the woods, the police are not well loved either right now.

From my perspective the anger has always been there towards teachers. IMO it's completely undeserved. There's little respect or understanding of the profession from the general population.

But if we are looking at what's going on in this historical moment. It makes complete sense that teachers are not wanting schools to open. They care about their kids, themselves, and the health of the larger community. None of them went into this profession for the money. And they regularly go over and above what is asked of them. They also believe in science and generally follow the recommendations of the health department. So when the experts say that we shouldn't be gathering in groups, and we all need to stay 6ft apart, it's common sense that schools aren't open.

I agree that there should also be a better plan than what's been presented. I am frustrated that we aren't seeing more creative solutions. We're missing an opportunity to innovate and engage the community.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2020, 02:02:06 AM »


You have to remember that most people are idiots. 

Nuff said.

shinn497

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2020, 02:43:35 AM »
I love teachers. I think they are in a tough situation. But I am also a realist and reckognize that opening schools is about a variety of factors besides the spread of the disease. There are huge implications for the future of our society.

That being said. I think the teaching system is pretty broken and a huge cause of inequality. But, I think that improving it will need to come at a huge cost. How we address that cost I do not know. I err to a more private solution, but I am not even confident about that.

deborah

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2020, 03:45:49 AM »
I think there are several factors. None of these may be true, but you wanted reasons, so you could think about it. As Australia has had schools open, and almost everyone who has got covid19 has been traced to work out where they got it, there has been a lot of reporting here about each case related to schools and where each case arose. I haven’t seen a dataset.

1 It has been reported frequently that children don’t get covid19 in nearly the same numbers as adults do. This appears to begin to change in the top two classes of secondary school (after kids are about 16), and these kids can wear masks. So it could easily be perceived that teachers actually have less exposure than other workplaces, as they have much less adult contact than happens in the average workplace. Where I live they are beginning to bring in masks, but not for children under 10.

2 Normally children are vectors for disease, and teachers, as part of their job, are exposed to just about every disease that’s going around. Suddenly they’re refusing to work even though disease is part of their normal workplace. The comparisons of covid19 and the flu would not help.

3 Teachers have a much less restricted work environment than just about everyone else. A classroom is big and airy compared to many other jobs where people are bunched together with other adults. Teachers spend time outside as well. It is easy to perceive that they have a much better physical environment to avoid covid19.

4 Children need to learn. To do that, they need to be at school, because they can’t do that at home.

5 Almost all reported cases of school employees (including cleaners...) getting covid19 have involved contact with another adult, rather than a child. There have been a very small number of cases where a child over 16 has transmitted it to a teacher. Most cases where it has been picked up by an adult at a school have involved cleaners and/or teachers. This makes it very similar to other workplaces, yet people are going to those other workplaces.

Other things have been mentioned - particularly that health care workers aren’t complaining the way teachers are, and that teachers are doing things outside their homes. Most of the cases where teachers are getting covid19 appear to be outside the school.

sytar7

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2020, 06:07:22 AM »
You have valid concerns and questions. School districts have a wide variety of plans, some of which are hardly plans at all.

Regardless of what you fall looks like please take your mental and physical health seriously. More than likely, you are your only advocate.

Fishindude

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2020, 06:30:56 AM »
I don't think there is any direct hate for teachers.   Here's the deal .... we paid approx. $15,500 in real estate taxes last year, approx. $10,500 of which went to support the local school system.   School shut down early and we lost about 1/3 of our school year.   I got 2/3 of what I paid for with my tax dollars yet all of the school staff continued getting full pay.   Myself and most taxpayers can be understanding about this for a few months, and we understand there are some uncontrollables out there, but at some point things have to get back to normal, and we need to get what we paid for or taxes need to be reduced accordingly.    It's just simple barnyard economics.   No private business would ever be allowed to promise you nine months worth of services, give you six and still expect to be paid the full amount.

The other aspect is, that kids simply need to be in the school classroom atmosphere.  The online stuff is a joke and they are learning nothing about social skills, getting along with other kids, etc. when stuck at home.   And like it or not, many parents structure their working lives around kids being in school from 8-3 every day and need to be at those jobs to support their families.   If they kids are home, they can't work and puts the family in financial jeopardy.

Shane

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2020, 06:40:41 AM »
We definitely don't hate teachers! I'm grateful to be FIREd and not have to worry about risking my life to go to work at a job to make money during covid. Our family is choosing to keep our 11 year old home and planning to do online cyber school for the 2020-2021 school year, because we can easily do that. Really, the only reason we send our child to school is for socialization. If kids are expected to keep >6' apart and have to wear masks all day, for us, there's really no point in going. Not all families enjoy the same amount of privilege we do, so I think school should be open for those kids who need it. Teachers who are young and healthy and/or have already had covid and recovered, who are willing to volunteer to work in person with kids in brick and mortar schools, should get the equivalent of hazardous duty pay, and teachers who, for whatever reason(s), don't feel comfortable working with kids in person should be able to stay safe by working remotely. Perhaps, we could cut the pay of teachers who choose to work remotely to 60% of their normal salary, and increase the pay of teachers willing to take the risk of working in person with kids to 140%? That would incentivize people to work, but allow them to choose. 60% of normal pay is what workers normally get from Workers' Comp insurance. Should be enough for most people to live on.

Just to be clear, I don't think teachers are the only ones taking risks in order to earn a living during covid. I think we should be offering extra pay to every "essential" worker who we are expecting to continue to work at an in person job during the pandemic. Grocery store workers, gas station attendants, police officers, fire fighters, etc., should all be getting something extra to acknowledge the fact that they are risking their lives by having to report to work and being forced to interact with a gazillion strangers everyday.

This educator's perspective on the coming school year seemed pretty good to me.

MudPuppy

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2020, 07:01:25 AM »
Quote
1. If I catch C19 from a student will I have to burn my sick days or use workers comp days?
2. If a kid or fellow teacher catches C19 how and when will I be informed?
3. If there is a sub shortage how many classes do I have to cover a week?  Will I get paid extra?
4. If the policy is every kid has to wear a mask and a kid refuses and then the AP refuses to hold him or her accountable then who do I turn the AP into?

Answering from the perspective of what my workplaces are doing (I’m a nurse)


1) it’s sick time for us, not W.C., because it’s spread in the community
2) probably by your state dept of health like most other people, but maybe your employer will also tell you
3) probably won’t get paid extra unless you’re meeting requirements for whatever overtime is under your contract.  I don’t get hazard pay at either of my jobs.
4) that will likely vary by locale, but you can report most businesses not following protocols to the state board of health so schools could likely be treated the same way

GuitarStv

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2020, 07:31:12 AM »
These are all fair and valid concerns.  Teachers are likely in for a world of risk/hurt as soon as school gets back in.

You have to remember that most people are idiots.  They have no idea the work or difficulty involved in teaching children . . . but they do see several months off during the summer.  Not sure about the US, but most teachers in Canada are unionized, which also draws wrath (because some people believe that it's better everyone is dragged down to the lowest common denominator rather than a few are able to fight for better working conditions).  Then you have the large number of people who had a shitty teacher at some point in their lives and have decided that all teachers are assholes and need to suffer after that experience.
Basically this.

Oh, and "teachers are stupid, and just babysitters, and need to be "put in their place". "You think you are special."  Whatever.

It's pretty maddening.

I've spent quite a bit of time at our elementary school (I've had kids there for 10 years now).  I know the drill.  I have a third grader.  There's no way he's keeping a mask on his face for hours.  Not even 5 minutes.  Plus, kids are gross.  We can't even keep head lice out of schools for crying out loud!

Anyway, rant over.  I feel your pain.  I don't think it is safe to go back to school in many places.  I think we need to have pretty clear requirements on the new case trend, number of active cases AND need to have cleaning and class protocols.  Our state has put those requirements in place.  If we don't meet them, we don't open.
I've seen this said other places and truly do not understand it.  We teach our children to wear clothes, why is it impossible to teach them to wear a mask?  I have a three and seven year old and both can wear masks properly for over 30 minutes (the seven year old for longer obviously).  My biggest concern is that my three year old does not take it off properly.

We've taught our child to wear a mask when he's out of the house and around other people too.  I'd go as far as to suggest that most parents are likely to do this.  But teachers don't get to only teach the kids with good parents.  They have to teach the kids with stupid asshole parents . . . the ones who are arguing that wearing masks is the same as slavery, causes the death of every person who wears a mask, and is a crime against God.  The parents who are fighting with store employees when they're told that they can't enter a building without a mask.  The parents who are having tantrums and purposely coughing on store employees/throwing shopping items from their carts all over the store when asked to wear a mask.

Do you think that the kids of those parents will be keeping a mask on very reliably when asked?

DadJokes

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2020, 07:43:31 AM »
My wife is a teacher, so I understand your concern and feel it as well.

I'll be playing devil's advocate here, so don't shoot the messenger.

I don't know if it's hatred, but a lot of people have continued to have to work during the pandemic, so people are a little upset that some teachers think that they shouldn't have to work.

Those who want to move schools entirely to virtual are ignoring one big issue: the parents of these kids still have to work. Those parents can't stay home from work with their kids, so the kids need to go somewhere. What better place than school?

mizzourah2006

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2020, 08:05:33 AM »
I can give you my opinion, although it has nothing to do with "hatred towards teachers". But the simple fact is that many parents are in horrible situations where their choice is send their kids to school or quit their jobs. The # of single parent HHs in the US is extremely large and the fact that this debate has centered around home-schooling your kids vs. sending them to in-person school shows you the level of privilege the people engaging in the conversations have. To me the fact that we should allow teachers to continue to earn an income while, forcing parents to (especially of young children) to take over many of their duties, while trying to support a HH in many cases, is wrong IMO. Perhaps this has nothing to do with teachers primarily, but parents that are in this position should be the primary focus of these discussions, but instead it's become "think of the teachers" and "ignorant parents" that have been controlling the dialogue. We are a few weeks away from a real problem where single parents, parents that need to work outside the home, etc. are going to be forced to make a decision on how to handle this and there is currently little discussion on how to provide them support. The majority of working adults aren't working from home and there are a large % of single parent HHs to add to that. I've literally seen no one on any of social media talking about this. But they are all arguing with each other over whether it's "safe for students and teachers to go back". That's been my main issue with the entire discussion.

wageslave23

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2020, 08:13:21 AM »
Most teachers I know want schools to reopen because they have children and want them to be learning in person.  Most teachers are under 60 yrs old and relatively healthy.  The mortality rate of such population is VERY low. 

I would propose that any teacher who is uncomfortable returning for whatever reason should be able to take an unpaid leave.  Parents who don't want their kids to go to school should be able to keep  them out and do homeschooling.  Hopefully the two would balance each other out and the student teacher ratio would remain unchanged. 

The other point that is frustrating people is what is the end game?  There is a very good chance that a vaccine is not developed.  Do we just not have in person learning for a year, 2 years, 5 years?

OtherJen

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2020, 08:15:17 AM »
I can give you my opinion, although it has nothing to do with "hatred towards teachers". But the simple fact is that many parents are in horrible situations where their choice is send their kids to school or quit their jobs. The # of single parent HHs in the US is extremely large and the fact that this debate has centered around home-schooling your kids vs. sending them to in-person school shows you the level of privilege the people engaging in the conversations have. To me the fact that we should allow teachers to continue to earn an income while, forcing parents to (especially of young children) to take over many of their duties, while trying to support a HH in many cases, is wrong IMO. Perhaps this has nothing to do with teachers primarily, but parents that are in this position should be the primary focus of these discussions, but instead it's become "think of the teachers" and "ignorant parents" that have been controlling the dialogue. We are a few weeks away from a real problem where single parents, parents that need to work outside the home, etc. are going to be forced to make a decision on how to handle this and there is currently little discussion on how to provide them support. The majority of working adults aren't working from home and there are a large % of single parent HHs to add to that. I've literally seen no one on any of social media talking about this. But they are all arguing with each other over whether it's "safe for students and teachers to go back". That's been my main issue with the entire discussion.

To add something in response, all but one of the current teachers in my family and friend circle have school-aged children and had to navigate monitoring said children at home last spring while making up virtual lesson plans and teaching others' kids on the fly, with no prep and almost no advance warning.

The issue of working parents is valid, but it isn't a valid reason to denigrate teachers, as most of them are in the same boat.

mizzourah2006

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2020, 08:26:03 AM »
I can give you my opinion, although it has nothing to do with "hatred towards teachers". But the simple fact is that many parents are in horrible situations where their choice is send their kids to school or quit their jobs. The # of single parent HHs in the US is extremely large and the fact that this debate has centered around home-schooling your kids vs. sending them to in-person school shows you the level of privilege the people engaging in the conversations have. To me the fact that we should allow teachers to continue to earn an income while, forcing parents to (especially of young children) to take over many of their duties, while trying to support a HH in many cases, is wrong IMO. Perhaps this has nothing to do with teachers primarily, but parents that are in this position should be the primary focus of these discussions, but instead it's become "think of the teachers" and "ignorant parents" that have been controlling the dialogue. We are a few weeks away from a real problem where single parents, parents that need to work outside the home, etc. are going to be forced to make a decision on how to handle this and there is currently little discussion on how to provide them support. The majority of working adults aren't working from home and there are a large % of single parent HHs to add to that. I've literally seen no one on any of social media talking about this. But they are all arguing with each other over whether it's "safe for students and teachers to go back". That's been my main issue with the entire discussion.

To add something in response, all but one of the current teachers in my family and friend circle have school-aged children and had to navigate monitoring said children at home last spring while making up virtual lesson plans and teaching others' kids on the fly, with no prep and almost no advance warning.

The issue of working parents is valid, but it isn't a valid reason to denigrate teachers, as most of them are in the same boat.

Did you read the first part...where I said my personal thoughts have nothing to do with "hatred towards teachers"? I'm not saying that's not true, but this would also allow them to work from home...from what I've seen only ~35-40% of the work force has that luxury. My point was the discussion needs to be around how to support working parents...whether they are teachers or not and this discussion has been completely ignored as people fight over whether or not to open schools and that debate seems to stem around the fact that the two options are 1. Send your kid to school or 2. You as a parent homeschool your children with aid as far as teaching plans, etc. go from the teachers..which as I said above completely ignores the fact that homeschooling children isn't an option for over half the population without quitting their job or taking a leave of absence.

As far as people denigrating teachers....I think that's just social media today. No one can have discussions like this...it has to turn to an in-group vs. out-group debate.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 08:27:43 AM by mizzourah2006 »

Laura33

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2020, 08:27:19 AM »
I also don't buy most of this crap.  I've heard the "doctors and nurses" line quite a bit, and, yeah, no.  Health care workers literally signed up to treat sick people; it's not just part of the job, it's the foundation, the reason their job exists.  Teachers signed up to work in places with policies that are directly designed to protect them from illness (says every parent who has ever rolled their eyes at the "24 hrs after the temperature hits 98.6" policies).  Now, I think health care workers deserve medals and raises and our everlasting praise and respect for what they are doing.  But that doesn't mean that people who didn't sign up for that deserve to be criticized and disrespected. 

I also think there is a lot of longstanding resentment about the "cushy" deals teachers have -- the alleged 6-hr workdays and summers off and pensions and job security and whatnot.  Now, I was raised by teachers, so I know what that actually means -- the low pay, the many many extra hours out of the classroom, etc.  But most people don't actually see that.  And in fairly typical human fashion, people who have it worse in some manner voice their anger at the teachers unions for negotiating reasonable terms, instead of trying to change the de-unionized system they are stuck in that gives them no bargaining power to improve their own lot. 

But another part of the reason that this is coming up right now is that a lot of people have had to deal with teachers who basically phoned it in in the spring -- who treated the shutdowns like a paid vacation.  Now, I don't think that's even a large number of teachers; the teachers I know actually spent a lot more time than usual trying to transition teaching to an online platform effectively and basically worked their asses off trying to keep their students involved and engaged.  But it's always the bad examples that stick with people, right?  Like the HS junior who needed to take 3 APs, and whose teacher in one of the subjects basically didn't bother to do jack once school went online.  Or the kid who had finally worked her way up to honors track in writing thanks to a lot of hands-on help from her teacher (kid was not a native speaker and started in remedial clsses in ES), and who floundered when everything went online.  Or the kid stuck in a rural school with half-assed teachers in the best of times, some of whom literally did not hold even a single class after everything went online. 

In all these cases, the parents got to watch their kids getting hurt, up close and personal, day after day all spring.  And yet they are completely powerless; the school board seems to be focused on protecting the teachers, and while it makes noises about the good of the kids, there's no action taken against the teachers who totally checked out, and nothing but fluff and empty promises about how the schools are going to take care of the kids who don't do well in the online environment for whatever reason.  And the whole profession gets tarred by the (in)action of a few bad actors (ask me how I know - I'm a lawyer!).

Add that to the frustration of parents who still have to go to work regardless of the risks, and who now have to find childcare for their own kids (thus increasing the risk that the kids bring the illness home to them, while the teachers stay protected), and, yeah, you get resentment.  Think about it from their perspective:  your taxes pay teacher salaries.  Teachers are advocating to keep kids at home.  That means that you as parent now need to choose between paying extra money for someone to watch your kids during the day, or quitting your job and forgoing your income, all while still paying exactly the same in taxes.  So the end result is that the teachers still collect their full pay, while the parents take a huge financial hit -- and end up having to do half of the teacher's job to boot.

Again, in most cases, it's not the teachers' faults!  A pandemic hurts everyone; no one has it easier or better than before.  And better government management and supports could relieve some of those burdens, but we don't have that here.  But all of that is invisible anyway.  The part that is visible is that teachers appear to be looking out for their own self-interest, even though protecting the teachers means that we parents bear an increased -- and in some cases unsustainable -- burden. 

Of course people are mad.  Our system make it a zero-sum game, where protecting teachers means fucking over parents. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2020, 08:31:34 AM »
Most teachers are under 60 yrs old and relatively healthy.  The mortality rate of such population is VERY low.

I'm going to quibble with this point you've argued here.  Teachers as a whole tend to skew older.

1 in 3 are over 50 (https://www.childtrends.org/nearly-one-third-of-u-s-teachers-are-at-higher-risk-of-severe-illness-from-covid-19-due-to-age) and 1 in 5 teachers in the US are older than 55 (https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/tables/sass1112_2013314_t1s_002.asp).

92 percent of covid fatalities are in the 55+ age group.

DadJokes

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2020, 08:54:45 AM »
Most teachers are under 60 yrs old and relatively healthy.  The mortality rate of such population is VERY low.

I'm going to quibble with this point you've argued here.  Teachers as a whole tend to skew older.

1 in 3 are over 50 (https://www.childtrends.org/nearly-one-third-of-u-s-teachers-are-at-higher-risk-of-severe-illness-from-covid-19-due-to-age) and 1 in 5 teachers in the US are older than 55 (https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/tables/sass1112_2013314_t1s_002.asp).

92 percent of covid fatalities are in the 55+ age group.

I'll quibble your quibble with the top Google result for definition of most:

Quote
While “most” literally just means more than half, it is best used to mean something like 60% to 90%. Below 60% you should consider terms like “more than half” or “a small majority”. Above 90% you get in the territory of “almost all” or “a large majority”.

If 2/3 are under 50, that qualifies as "most."

wageslave23

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2020, 08:55:01 AM »
Most teachers are under 60 yrs old and relatively healthy.  The mortality rate of such population is VERY low.

I'm going to quibble with this point you've argued here.  Teachers as a whole tend to skew older.

1 in 3 are over 50 (https://www.childtrends.org/nearly-one-third-of-u-s-teachers-are-at-higher-risk-of-severe-illness-from-covid-19-due-to-age) and 1 in 5 teachers in the US are older than 55 (https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/tables/sass1112_2013314_t1s_002.asp).

92 percent of covid fatalities are in the 55+ age group.

I didn't say "all".  I said "most".

GuitarStv

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2020, 09:03:27 AM »
Ah gotcha.  Most people in the US are under 60 years old.  So I guess there's no real reason to be worried about the pandemic at all then!

:P

Sibley

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2020, 09:04:59 AM »
@Laura33 , once again, that was brilliant.

I think you're absolutely correct. I remember seeing all sorts of complaining posts on social media about specific teachers this past spring. A LOT of parents were upset, and for frequently very good reasons. Yes, there were some parents who are just crappy people complaining because they could. And there was an awful lot of people with shocked pikichu faces because their children are ill-mannered, spoiled brats. They REALLY didn't like the first hand evidence of what the teachers had been telling them all along. But it hasn't been that long, and those memories of the teachers that didn't seem to be doing anything are still fresh.

I'm seeing more discussion on social media of people pulling their kids out and doing home schooling. For parents who can, that will ease the risk in the schools. I worry what that will do to the kids. In some cases, I think it'll be fine. Not all though.

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Cyanne

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2020, 09:19:11 AM »
Schools Beat Earlier Plagues With Outdoor Classes. We Should Too.

How does that work in cold weather? I live in Minnesota. I’m speaking of temps below zero in Fahrenheit.

I do like that option for the first few weeks of school.

OtherJen

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2020, 09:21:51 AM »
Schools Beat Earlier Plagues With Outdoor Classes. We Should Too.

How does that work in cold weather? I live in Minnesota. I’m speaking of temps below zero in Fahrenheit.

I do like that option for the first few weeks of school.

In climates like ours, we'd have to shift to a long winter break (about 6 months, probably). But then we run into spring storms and heat advisories. No idea what is the right solution.

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2020, 09:26:23 AM »
What Laura said!

Laura33

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2020, 09:28:10 AM »
shocked pikichu faces

LOL.  My new descriptor.

Captain Cactus

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2020, 09:49:26 AM »
I suspect some of the animosity toward teachers stems from the fact that they continued to get paid full salary/benefits while arguably doing less work/not fulfilling the babysitting portion of their job that the taxpayers expect/pay for.  "...And property taxes are already too high...am I going to pay less in property tax since I'm not getting my money's worth from the school system?".

Many people lost their jobs or took a pay cut.  I kept my job, am working from home, and took a pay cut.  I'm ok with the pay cut because I'm not "working" in the same way as before, can take longer lunches with my family, don't have the stressful quotas that I would normally have. 

Teachers are a focal point for those hurt/frustrated/ruined by the virus.  People can bitch and moan all they want about it but I suspect the teachers will continue to get paid, the kids will ultimately end up back at home after a few weeks of opening in August/September, and the tax paying pubic will just have to get over it. 

Kris

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2020, 10:06:11 AM »
Ignorance, us/them thinking, and people needing other groups to vilify/blame.

Yes, we have a system whereby there is very little choice for many working people but to continue working, and they need their kids to be taken care of at school because they can't afford to take the time off to care for them or pay for other child care. But teachers did not invent that system. So once again, teachers are seen as the solution to the problem, and then seen as the problem if they have any reluctance or worries about the feasibility of the "solution."

Enough

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2020, 10:07:01 AM »
so, if you catch COVID, no matter how, why would you not use up your sick days? isn't this the kind of thing they are actually for?

I'd say no, sick days are not for Covid19.  If you catch Covid, you are likely going to have to isolate for 14 days, meaning no work.  Most businesses only give their employees 10 sick days / 80 sick hours (two weeks) per year.  That means that if you catch covid and you are forced to use your normal sick time, you are going to use ALL of your sick days for the year and any other sick time would eat into vacation time or be unpaid.  For many, that includes not only catching the flu, but things like doctor or dental appointments.

Where I work, they implemented a policy where if you test positive for Covid19, you are eligible for 80 hours of additional "pandemic" leave time on top of your normal sick time.


ender

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2020, 10:11:59 AM »
I suspect the Venn Diagram of people think teachers are lazy and have cushy jobs and people who generate the negativity on teachers during covid nearly perfectly overlap.

I highly doubt many people who have any covid-specific negativity thought highly of the profession before.

teacherwithamustache

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2020, 10:32:43 AM »
My wife is a teacher, so I understand your concern and feel it as well.

I'll be playing devil's advocate here, so don't shoot the messenger.

I don't know if it's hatred, but a lot of people have continued to have to work during the pandemic, so people are a little upset that some teachers think that they shouldn't have to work.

Those who want to move schools entirely to virtual are ignoring one big issue: the parents of these kids still have to work. Those parents can't stay home from work with their kids, so the kids need to go somewhere. What better place than school?

I realize a lot of teachers are not as digitally inclined as I am and the level of Rigor from inperson to online was not there.  It was for me and my students.  Do workers in the private section have to take a pay cut to work from home?  My students test scores from end of year final had the same scores as previous years for the most part.  On one hand people argue we need teachers because they watch our kids and enable us to work.  Then there is we pay too much in property taxes to not have teachers watching our kids.

Captain Cactus

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Re: Why all of the hatred for Teachers during Covid?
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2020, 10:39:31 AM »
My wife is a teacher, so I understand your concern and feel it as well.

I'll be playing devil's advocate here, so don't shoot the messenger.

I don't know if it's hatred, but a lot of people have continued to have to work during the pandemic, so people are a little upset that some teachers think that they shouldn't have to work.

Those who want to move schools entirely to virtual are ignoring one big issue: the parents of these kids still have to work. Those parents can't stay home from work with their kids, so the kids need to go somewhere. What better place than school?

I realize a lot of teachers are not as digitally inclined as I am and the level of Rigor from inperson to online was not there.  It was for me and my students.  Do workers in the private section have to take a pay cut to work from home?  My students test scores from end of year final had the same scores as previous years for the most part.  On one hand people argue we need teachers because they watch our kids and enable us to work.  Then there is we pay too much in property taxes to not have teachers watching our kids.

Yes.  Many people who are working from home took some kind of pay cut..."shared sacrifice" is how it was presented to us.  We all take a pay cut so we don't need to lay as many people off.