The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: Daisyedwards800 on January 10, 2021, 12:08:37 PM
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I personally always try to be engaged at my profession, but the hits just bother me and I end up taking on stress and having it impact my weekends and free time. This is somewhat the nature of my career (accounting) but I just don't want to deal with it anymore. I'm not ready financially to retire, but thank GOD I had the foresight some years ago to start aggressively saving and planning.
If I were 38 now and thought I had 30 years to go working, I would be extremely depressed.
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Yep. I don't dislike my job, and I actually quite like my managers and coworkers, but there are so many things I would rather do instead of working. I think a certain percentage of people just don't find meaning in any sort of job, and I don't think a dream job is a possibility for everyone. I do feel pretty lucky to have realized this pretty early, so I could focus on FIRE rather than searching for a perfect job for me that most likely doesn't exist.
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Yes me! I actually have an autoimmune disorder that is made so much worse by stress so I end up spending my weekends and evenings recuperating. Definitely not how I want to live. Definitely running away from working rather than running to something.
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I think most people hate being forced to do things they don't want to do and with some jobs that problem is exacerbated by bad bosses. Unless your job is your passion, most people would rather do something else.
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Can you make this a poll? Maybe with several choices.
I liked some parts of every job I've had and disliked others. I recently left one I hated for a better one, that I think I will like a lot more. I've done this one as a side hustle so I know what to expect, just now starting there full time so I quit my previous main job. I hated my last department at my main job because the work was repetitive and not challenging, but the people were really nice and welcoming there. The one before that I really liked but then we got a bad boss so I left. That boss is gone now so I might go back there part time in the summer.
I still want to have the freedom to choose whether to work or not. It would be nice to never use an alarm clock. I like the intellectual challenge and social interaction that I get from work, but it would be even better if I could find those in some other way. I'm working on the social thing right now. Intellectual might be more difficult. I don't think I would do well as a SAHP.
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Yes! This is quintessentially me. I have chafed at the rules and requirements of any job from the beginning. Hated the limits of my freedom and flexibility. I started my working career not long before being able to check work email from home and blackberries became the norm, and it has gotten many orders of magnitude worse since then, when even my hypothetical free time was no longer mine.
Even if I liked feeling productive, making a difference, enjoyed my coworkers, etc (which I never really had all of those all at the same time) I still just didn't like *working*. Spending that many hours a week on anything, I suppose, was just not something that worked well for me. In addition to the drag of the obligations, I am apparently the type of person that likes to do lots of very different things for a few hours each week vs immersing myself in anything for many many hours. Doesn't speak well for me diving deep into a couple of topics I've had on my list to pursue during FIRE, but we shall see.
I do joke that I seem to just dislike anything someone wants to pay me for, but I suspect it's the issue of having to do that thing for far too many hours. There are some volunteer activities that I've been doing a few too many hours per week and so I guess that's just confirmation that I am a superficial person instead of a deep dive person!
I'm really grateful being FI has enabled me to experiment and not *have* to do something I don't like to survive.
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I'm already over 50. I feel fortunate to had gotten a job in IT that I yearned for early in my career, as a senior engineer and decision maker, but after 20 years of doing similar work at the same employer, I feel less interested in the job and more interested in pursuing other interests outside of work, which I currently have limited time for while working. So, I guess I don't "like" working anymore, but I don't exactly hate it either, so for me, the motivation is more for what I could be doing instead.
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Yes! This is quintessentially me.
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Hated the limits of my freedom and flexibility.
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I am apparently the type of person that likes to do lots of very different things for a few hours each week vs immersing myself in anything for many many hours.
I like having a week or two just to think about completion of a task that requires ~1 hour to complete.
And I like having another week or two in which to complete it.
Life is finite.
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This is hard for me to answer. I dont like working my current job and career but I dont know if that means I dont like working. I just dont want to invest the time and energy to try something else not knowing if would love/like it either.
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Yes me! I actually have an autoimmune disorder that is made so much worse by stress so I end up spending my weekends and evenings recuperating. Definitely not how I want to live. Definitely running away from working rather than running to something.
^ This is basically me too! And I am a perfectionist by nature so work with any level of responsibility or decision making seems to be increasingly bad for my health.
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I don't mind working, I just hate jobs. To me those things are different. The things I want to work on don't have alot of value in the world anymore. For example, in RE I plan to learn multiple languages, teach adult basic education, building a garden at my local food cupboard and coach with Dress for Success. None of which earn much (if any) money. I also really detest the arbitrary rules and practices of corporate jobs- like where I can work, when I should work, when I can or can't take a vacation/ volunteer and who I can talk to at any given time. Ugh! God willing and the creek don't rise, I'll be RE in Feb 2022!
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I also really detest the arbitrary rules and practices of corporate jobs.
My sister was offered a HUGE promotion.
She refused the offer because she was so sick and tired of "the arbitrary rules and practices of corporate jobs."
Later, a senior executive came to her home and pleaded with her to accept the offer.
She refused and will FIRE in August 2021.
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Don't hate working, just hate the amount of time dedicated to it along with the schedule.
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Yep. I don't dislike my job, and I actually quite like my managers and coworkers, but there are so many things I would rather do instead of working. I think a certain percentage of people just don't find meaning in any sort of job, and I don't think a dream job is a possibility for everyone. I do feel pretty lucky to have realized this pretty early, so I could focus on FIRE rather than searching for a perfect job for me that most likely doesn't exist.
Basically sums up my position as well.
I need money to live a decent life. My jobs pays OK, most of the people are ok, and it is not stressful. There are plenty of other things that I would rather do, but they either pay little or take money to do.
Some days my jobs feels like handcuffs, I could coast for another 29 years (to "full retirement age" as far as the pension is concerned) and nothing would happen, though I am on trick to be gone *well* before that, I could go elsewhere and make more money for more stress, or I could change fields completely and get knocked down the pay scale and potentially work longer.
WFH during COVID has really changed the dynamic ... we have had people delay a planned retirement; their public reasoning is that they were retiring to travel, but in the current climate that is not possible so the elect to keep working. The reality is they are at home and as long as they check their email every 15-30 minutes and/or answer the phone when called they can do whatever they want in the down time of the day (the time in the office they would have spent sitting idly in their office or cubicle) ... really a very odd OMY. The same dynamic applies to us younger folk's, but without already being able to leave for good.
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WFH during COVID has really changed the dynamic ... we have had people delay a planned retirement; their public reasoning is that they were retiring to travel, but in the current climate that is not possible so the elect to keep working. The reality is they are at home and as long as they check their email every 15-30 minutes and/or answer the phone when called they can do whatever they want in the down time of the day (the time in the office they would have spent sitting idly in their office or cubicle) ... really a very odd OMY. The same dynamic applies to us younger folk's, but without already being able to leave for good.
I don't know about them, but I don't think I would be super gung ho to FIRE now even if we had enough, for the same reason - I want to retire to do things, go places, spend time with people. I'm not sure what I would even do all day if I was retired now, other than a lot of local hiking, because everything I want to do after retirement is still dead. I would really have to reimagine everything about my planned retirement.
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WFH during COVID has really changed the dynamic ... we have had people delay a planned retirement; their public reasoning is that they were retiring to travel, but in the current climate that is not possible so the elect to keep working. The reality is they are at home and as long as they check their email every 15-30 minutes and/or answer the phone when called they can do whatever they want in the down time of the day (the time in the office they would have spent sitting idly in their office or cubicle) ... really a very odd OMY. The same dynamic applies to us younger folk's, but without already being able to leave for good.
I don't know about them, but I don't think I would be super gung ho to FIRE now even if we had enough, for the same reason - I want to retire to do things, go places, spend time with people. I'm not sure what I would even do all day if I was retired now, other than a lot of local hiking, because everything I want to do after retirement is still dead. I would really have to reimagine everything about my planned retirement.
Retired in Feb 2020 and Covid did change the dynamic drastically. WE had 5 concerts, and around 2-3 months of travel planned . I still don't regret retiring, but covid is a factor. If you aren't miserable at work, waiting a while longer to see if covid does indeed calm down is probably not a bad idea.
As for working, I was tired of middle management in the corporate world. There were days where I was busy all day, but didn't feel like I had accomplished anything. There are days now, where I "work" all day at things I am interested in and I am completely content. I suppose it's a matter of perspective.
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I’m genuinely interested in my field and I enjoy most of the work. My job satisfaction tends to vary based on how well I get on with my boss and coworkers. Part of why I’m interested in FI is that FU money seems to either make those variations either more tolerable or make them easier to change.
My interest in the RE part of FIRE is less about disliking working and more about liking other things more (travel, pursuing certain hobbies, etc.).
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I never worked for anyone, but instead jumped straight to self-employment - in fact, it was a bit of an accident, but it worked out really well. Freelancing suits me because I have much more control over my time and many of the problems mentioned above go away. I don't ask for time off, I tell my clients 'I'm away for X weeks', and if I don't want to work at a certain time, they choose a different slot. I can also refuse work I don't want to do, e.g. teaching very young children, which I find stressful.
Despite all this, I started saving and then pursuing FIRE because there are no guarantees when you work for yourself. I was scared that I'd have a bad month and not be able to afford to live, so having lots of savings made me feel more stable. I think I'll continue some level of work even after FI, but only the work I really want to do.
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I’m genuinely interested in my field and I enjoy most of the work. My job satisfaction tends to vary based on how well I get on with my boss and coworkers. Part of why I’m interested in FI is that FU money seems to either make those variations either more tolerable or make them easier to change.
My interest in the RE part of FIRE is less about disliking working and more about liking other things more (travel, pursuing certain hobbies, etc.).
This sums it up nicely for me. Most of the time I enjoy my work, and I think I will miss much of it when I eventually retire. But there are other things I'd also like to do that I can't do while working.
FI gives me leverage to choose what I want to do. It reduces the potential for negative outcomes should my choices be incompatible with my employer's demands.
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Yes. I don't like working and would rather be sitting at home.
There are no qualifications or blow-softeners in this post. The wage cage sucks, period.
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I joined this forum two years ago specifically because I was getting progressively more miserable at work.
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Very much so. Like the OP I am also an accountant. At the last meeting of our local FIRE club (which I suppose was over a year ago now), I think I was the only purist there. Everyone else wanted FIRE to do other things such as travel, volunteer etc. whereas I just straight up don't like working. I have never enjoyed a single job in my entire life and distrinctly remember being miserable having to go to my first job at 15.
This was exacerbated by working in the corporate world. I increasingly can't get over the idea that most corporate jobs are incredibly stupid and likely don't really need to be done at all. At least I could see the point of prior jobs I had (gas station attendant, bike mechanic, equipment delivery person) even if I didn't like them, but it's hard to see any value generated by filling out spreadsheets and forms for a circular economy of office drones.
It is bewildering to me that so many people do OMY after they've achieved their number (and don't get me started on the false security of a 92% success rate vs 95% etc etc.). I feel incredibly grateful to be one of the privileged few that could attain FI and that I was exposed to the idea by MMM and Early Retirement Extreme nearly a decade ago now and no longer have to work.
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I used to like my chosen career but I've really burned out on it these last few years. An interesting project crosses my desk often enough to keep me sane but that's about it. The rest of the time I just do what I can to bite my tongue and deal with the boring work and the managers and coworkers that I'd rather just leave behind. I've tried switching jobs and it's helped a little but I think the issues I have are now just the nature of the work.
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Yes. I don't like working and would rather be sitting at home.
There are no qualifications or blow-softeners in this post. The wage cage sucks, period.
Hahaha. I love this, in a sick and misery loves company way. Work sucks, f you to anyone who likes their job 😜🤣
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I love work! I love producing handicrafts, and gardening, and sewing...
Oh, you mean work that produces a livable income with a possibility of retirement? Then yes. ;)
My job is good, I like my work and my coworkers, management is good. Even so, I want to spend my life on this earth doing volunteer work that is meaningful (but not profitable), spending my time on my hobbies, and hiking whenever the sun is out instead of only on the weekends. In WA, the sun knows the workweek schedule and deliberately shines best during work hours. I'm convinced.
And my field is fast moving enough that I want to be out before retirement age instead of stuck at a desk learning Bullshit.io framework to keep employed while competing against new college grads for the same positions.
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I'm pursuing work in a very fulfilling artistic field because I'm very averse to doing work that feels meaningless to me. I've declined many opportunities for decent-paying work throughout my young adulthood because I dont want to do stuff I hate just for the money. I'm still very motivated to reach FI sooner rather than later, because my enjoyment of my artistic work is severely diminished by it being an obligation, and my freedom and security being dependent on my ability to find employment in a competitive field. Once I get there I may work for many more years, or I may retire on the spot, I'll let future-me decide. But I know that working just because I have no other choice is a situation I do not want to tolerate for longer than necessary.
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Many years ago, when I was still in the first couple weeks of working at my first "real job" after college -- I remember thinking to myself while sitting in my cubicle "Is this really the way my life is going to be for the next 4 decades? This sucks." I began saving and investing aggressively -- probably before the "FIRE" phrase was coined :)
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I've been in the work-to-live mindset for quite sometime. I had some fun jobs in my 20s and early 30s that allowed me to travel the country (and occasionally to Europe), but the pay was crap and too much weekend or evening work. I left that world to join more traditional corps to increase my earning power and reduce my hours.
Now I'm 20+ years into my career, been at the same employer for 5 years, which has been one of the best places I've ever worked. I'm grateful to have it, especially during Covid. But it's still work and still sucks and I'm still saving like mad to leave ASAP, hopefully in 2022. I've had former co-workers and friends die young (30s and 40s) falling off treadmills, suicides, cancer, accidents, etc. I think about them often and realize life is finite. I don't think it's productive to spend your life working in a cubicle or being on someone else's schedule for 30+ years and "playing the game." Right now, I feel like I'm taking advantage of my employer for the first time in my career. Working 20 hour weeks (paid for 40), dismissing unnecessary meetings, taking 2-hour lunches, not volunteering for projects (ever). I still get high performance review scores and my big boss several levels above me loves me because I get shit done quickly, deliver quality work and don't complain or rock the boat.
I'm close to FI and simply work is just becoming an annoyance and my case of the fuck-its is quite high. It's actually quite liberating.
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I just want my best hours of every day to be mine. What I get are the hours after work and the weekends are sometimes just catchup or recovery from the work week. I see this getting worse as DW and I get older until we are ready to retire.
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It's not that I dislike working, I just hate to work on the same stuff for any long time ;)
And yes, I don't like 8/5 jobs. Too much time sucked up - your most valuable possession. But it's still a bit before I can consider going to a 20 hour work week (or 5 years more on the 40hours)
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Working (pun intended) on designing my life, such that it's hard to delineate between work and play.
Most w-2 jobs have some good and bad aspects, and I doubt any one unicorn job exists. After a while, even a seemingly great job starts to get stale/old as we change and grow.
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I love what I do and I love who I do it with. I love my field. I love my clients/patients.
However, I do NOT enjoy continually having to justify and explain why I do what I do (which works, I've got 30 years experience guys) to people who literally have no idea what my job title/position actually entails, and haven't seemed to learn over the past three years. Some of this is education- and age-based, and some of it is literally part of the misunderstanding of my field of work.
I also do NOT like being trapped behind a desk when most of my job is not and should not be desk-bound. I'm overqualified for what they "let" me do, and I spend a lot of my day bored and trying to look busy. I'm in an open office environment (not by choice) which has caused a LOT of problems with coworkers chiming in on my decisions. I'm getting my own office in a few months (FINALLY) so at least I can be bored in privacy and my clients/patients will have somewhere to privately meet.
I'm focused on RE (Recreational Employment) because I can still live my values and make the positive impact on my community without having that price tag attached to it.
Whoever above said "Wage Cage" is 100% spot on for paid employment for me right now!
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I personally always try to be engaged at my profession, but the hits just bother me and I end up taking on stress and having it impact my weekends and free time. This is somewhat the nature of my career (accounting) but I just don't want to deal with it anymore. I'm not ready financially to retire, but thank GOD I had the foresight some years ago to start aggressively saving and planning.
If I were 38 now and thought I had 30 years to go working, I would be extremely depressed.
I am an accountant and in same boat. I think being an accountant is the perfect FIRE storm: make decent money, you are constantly thinking about value of money, you can do the fire math and most accounting jobs are not that fulfilling. So basically you can see the light at the end of the tunnel and you are unwilling to leave a well-paying job, so fire tends to be a better strategy. Other people tend to think either FIRE is a fantasy or have jobs that are more bearable.
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I hate working most jobs, so I don't do those jobs.
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I really like what I do most of the time. For me, coastFIRE makes the most sense. My field lends itself well to casual, part time work.
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Me neither - I didn't like it, but it was the degree to which I didn't like certain moments near the end that made me pull the trigger.
I was very good at my job because I was willing to obsess about it 24x7. Some who witnessed my climb have flattered my success with terms like "the best" or "no one can do what you do".
But, it took its toll. I enjoyed the pursuit of deals, I enjoyed the wins even more. The losses didn't really seem to hurt me at all. What I couldn't tolerate was the way folks higher in the org (there's always "higher") purposely overlooked or did not acknowledge my contributions to the overall success. They would rather plod along or make you fight for what was promised for your work rather than listen to new ideas on how to teach the org to be successful. In short, egos always were more powerful than the desire for overall success. This happened in every company.
The last CEO I worked for comes back to me every 3 months, trying to convince me to return to the grind. I send him pictures of the last fish I caught or the last mountain I skied.
I had to face some realities after FIREing in March 2020:
1. The opinions of others do matter to me, even if I try to deny it.
2. Intelligence and reason are seldom going to be recognized by others in an organization. Relationship, ego and emotion are responsible for almost all decisions.
3. I can enjoy my retirement now and be as lazy as I choose on any given day and I honestly have zero guilt about it.
4. Winning is important to me - if I go after something - I make it happen - almost 100%. So, I'm very choosy about what I will spend my energy on.
5. I own my destiny, and while my 5 college kids and my wife are reliant on me - I got this covered.
6. Good fortune should always be appreciated, but seizing the opportunity presented requires guts, ambition and an obsessive focus.
7. My patience was hard to find, but once I did find it, my own anxiety dropped like a stone.
"Working" for yourself is truly, never working. I obsess over the markets and my investments and my kids and health care options every day. But it is not undesirable. I enjoy my mind working on these problems because I have proven that whatever I focus on, I amplify - even if it is not instantaneous. I'm also finally satisfying a bit of my own ego and honestly - that's pretty awesome too.
That was a bit of a rant and probably uninteresting for many, but I enjoyed encapsulating it so thanks for the compelling inquiry.
-Wildatheart
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I personally always try to be engaged at my profession, but the hits just bother me and I end up taking on stress and having it impact my weekends and free time. This is somewhat the nature of my career (accounting) but I just don't want to deal with it anymore. I'm not ready financially to retire, but thank GOD I had the foresight some years ago to start aggressively saving and planning.
If I were 38 now and thought I had 30 years to go working, I would be extremely depressed.
I am an accountant and in same boat. I think being an accountant is the perfect FIRE storm: make decent money, you are constantly thinking about value of money, you can do the fire math and most accounting jobs are not that fulfilling. So basically you can see the light at the end of the tunnel and you are unwilling to leave a well-paying job, so fire tends to be a better strategy. Other people tend to think either FIRE is a fantasy or have jobs that are more bearable.
Good thoughts. I do find that accountants are overrepresented in the FIRE community for sure, likely for the reasons you stated. I truly admire the agility that would be required to perform the mental gymnastics needed to make accounting a fulfilling job.
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I think if someone is so stressed with their job that they're running away FROM it rather than TO something in retirement, they might consider making some changes in their job or even a different career. I was in this situation with my previous job and felt trapped, stressed, bored, anxious about what I was missing out on, etc. I ended up moving across the country and getting a somewhat related job but for a different company and different boss. My outlook is completely different now, and I don't dread work every Sunday night anymore.
Anyways, worth considering amking job changes rather than toughing it out. My change ended up being a good financial decision as well, but I would recommend the change even if it was bit of a loss financially.
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i like working, i just don't like a lot of things about the work environment(s) i might be subjected to if i was less independent
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I don't hate working, nor hate my job. It's a good place to work, if you have to work...but I'd rather stay home with my family every single day. I understand the relationship that I'm trading time and talents for money. It's nothing more than that. My job definitely helps others lead a better life every day, so there is that fulfillment...and it's very direct. I know what I value my time and talents at. If my boss told me tomorrow I was going to be a floor cleaner, and paid me what I thought my time and talent was worth, I'd be the best damned floor cleaner we have...as I do have integrity by living up to my end of the relationship.
I found this site "late" in life, and had 5 kids young, so the savings started later than most...but we will be able to retire 15 years earlier than most people. I came here for strategies to get to FI.
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I also really detest the arbitrary rules and practices of corporate jobs.
My sister was offered a HUGE promotion.
She refused the offer because she was so sick and tired of "the arbitrary rules and practices of corporate jobs."
Later, a senior executive came to her home and pleaded with her to accept the offer.
She refused and will FIRE in August 2021.
That's amazing! Good for her.
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I like working. I don't like having to work at someone else's beck and call, and on their schedule, with their deadlines. I expect to be constantly busy post retirement.
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I love work! I love producing handicrafts, and gardening, and sewing...
.......
And my field is fast moving enough that I want to be out before retirement age instead of stuck at a desk learning Bullshit.io framework to keep employed while competing against new college grads for the same positions.
OMG, this is me ('cept for sewing). Fortunately (or unfortunately - take your pick) I am not far from retirement age, so I may be on my last BS.IO version (I can only hope!)
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I like working. I don't like having to work at someone else's beck and call, and on their schedule, with their deadlines. I expect to be constantly busy post retirement.
You might have a chance to finally post a little more on this forum. :)
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Yeah... I've switched jobs a bunch of times, talked to managers about how to make things better, switched teams, changed up how I do things. I've sometimes had jobs that I really enjoyed. But most of the time, no. And right now, it's really feeling like I just need to be done.
I could imagine there being a perfect job that I would want to come out of FIRE for, just so I could do it. But it's sure not the one I have now. And is it worth an unknown number of years of working miserable jobs to find that one? Unlikely.
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I just don't like anything to do with working. Not because my job is hard, it is not. I just don't want to be told to do a given thing at a given time at a given location.
Watching Youtube videos showing those youngsters enjoying beach and water in southeast Asia, I keep asking myself: Why I am here and they are there.
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I don't mind working and I like knowing I have, and will have had, a satisfying career.
But I would prefer to cut it short so then I can bask in even better things.
It's the best of both worlds - you have a successful, rewarding career so you get to revel in the glow of having won at the meritocracy then you retire early so you can do the other things you also like (a bit more than working).
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Just spent 2.5 work days dealing with faulty software license issues just to get an ancillary program to translate a file from a different unsupported buggy layout tool into a crappy thermal simulation tool.
I am deeply tired of this sort of life killing hoop jumping just to get to my actual job. If I actually got to spend a decent chunk of my day on items in my job description I would not he looking so hard for a way out.
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Just spent 2.5 work days dealing with faulty software license issues just to get an ancillary program to translate a file from a different unsupported buggy layout tool into a crappy thermal simulation tool.
I am deeply tired of this sort of life killing hoop jumping just to get to my actual job. If I actually got to spend a decent chunk of my day on items in my job description I would not he looking so hard for a way out.
I know that feel moof. I'm a test engineer. I spend way more of my time fighting with test agent problems, Selenium drivers not working the same between different browser types, and an abandoned wrapper for Selenium that is supposed to make working with Selenium easier. The wrapper is mostly broken and just makes it harder to track down bugs. I would rewrite the test application to not use the wrapper and just use the Selenium API directly, but I'm not sure I can convince my manager to let me do that.
I like playing with computers and coding, but I hate doing it for other people for pay. I look forward to the day I can step away from paid work. At this point, I'd rather spend my days walking around picking up litter than hunched over a computer trying to figure out how I'm going to un-fuck some broken system.
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Just spent 2.5 work days dealing with faulty software license issues just to get an ancillary program to translate a file from a different unsupported buggy layout tool into a crappy thermal simulation tool.
I am deeply tired of this sort of life killing hoop jumping just to get to my actual job. If I actually got to spend a decent chunk of my day on items in my job description I would not he looking so hard for a way out.
I know that feel moof. I'm a test engineer. I spend way more of my time fighting with test agent problems, Selenium drivers not working the same between different browser types, and an abandoned wrapper for Selenium that is supposed to make working with Selenium easier. The wrapper is mostly broken and just makes it harder to track down bugs. I would rewrite the test application to not use the wrapper and just use the Selenium API directly, but I'm not sure I can convince my manager to let me do that.
I like playing with computers and coding, but I hate doing it for other people for pay. I look forward to the day I can step away from paid work. At this point, I'd rather spend my days walking around picking up litter than hunched over a computer trying to figure out how I'm going to un-fuck some broken system.
I get this totally. Large part of my job is trying to make excuses for software that has known faults and crashes all the time and has been like it for the last 10 years yet management will not put in the resources required to correct it. Whenever it goes down clients complain and then we have to make up some BS excuse why it happened when everyone really knows that the reason it persists is because management don't care enough to put in the required resources to properly fix it.
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Didn't hate work per se, but hate all the things that others have mentioned - time commitment, bs politics, arbitrary rules, work to work, facetime, etc.
When I FIREd they asked me what they could do to get me to stay. I said give me half my pay for half time hours requirement and ability to come and go as I please (WFH, Office) but with same incentive goals and payouts, figured it would cost them less to get same results and I could stay doing the aspects of the job I like while still making good coin even if not needed.
Answer, we checked with HR and we are a big company, there is no precedent, may not send the right message to others and blah blah blah blah. Response from me - thank you for confirming the lack flexibility and creative thinking that is lacking in "big company" and is one of the reasons why am leaving.
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Just spent 2.5 work days dealing with faulty software license issues just to get an ancillary program to translate a file from a different unsupported buggy layout tool into a crappy thermal simulation tool.
I am deeply tired of this sort of life killing hoop jumping just to get to my actual job. If I actually got to spend a decent chunk of my day on items in my job description I would not he looking so hard for a way out.
Seems like practically everybody I know in software feels this way. Writing code is fun, all the other crap, not so much.
I'm excited for when I can quit my software job so I can spend *more* of my time actually writing code :-)
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I generally like my job, but as others have said I'd rather do something else. My bosses and co workers are all great.
The things that get me are being hamstrung by corporate and basically always being on call (but that goes with my job). I'm a database administrator and every. single. year. we run into space issues on our database servers. The systems guys are in total agreement with me, but the higher ups keep telling us "we're moving to a cloud solution this year so space won't be an issue then." OK, that would be fantastic, let's do it! But I've heard that for three years straight now. I mean come on! HD space is probably the cheapest thing for up keeping a physical server. So we're forced to put bandaids on the servers until corporate can pull the trigger on letting us migrate.
So yes, glad I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, maybe 10 or so years out. I'm only 34 so I count myself lucky.
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I love my job, and while I've been seriously burned out at times, better times eventually came back around. I'm now in a position where I'm about halfway to a pension (12 more years), and think I'll stay until then. I'll be 48 at that point, and still have two kids at home.
In the meantime, I'm trying to save and invest a lot and still have a backup plan if things take a turn for the worse. I'm also trying to steer my career into paths that interest me, and taking assignments based upon what is best for my family, and things that can involve some adventure.
One advantage of the military is that even if you get stuck with a terrible boss, either you or they will be gone fairly quickly. With officers moving every 2-3 years, and everyone's tours offset by some amount, you've typically only got 18 months max with any particular boss. Combined with the fact that we get all the federal holidays off and 30 days of leave every year, it's not that difficult to wait out a bad boss.
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Didn't hate work per se, but hate all the things that others have mentioned - time commitment, bs politics, arbitrary rules, work to work, facetime, etc.
When I FIREd they asked me what they could do to get me to stay. I said give me half my pay for half time hours requirement and ability to come and go as I please (WFH, Office) but with same incentive goals and payouts, figured it would cost them less to get same results and I could stay doing the aspects of the job I like while still making good coin even if not needed.
Answer, we checked with HR and we are a big company, there is no precedent, may not send the right message to others and blah blah blah blah. Response from me - thank you for confirming the lack flexibility and creative thinking that is lacking in "big company" and is one of the reasons why am leaving.
Yep Yep and Yep.
I'm not FIRE'd, but empathize wholly with this. My job promotions over the years have steadily increased my supervisory and administrative responsibilities (ie, deal more with office politics and less with what I was originally hired to do and actually enjoy). I find I don't particularly care for people and their needy-ness and that's a bad mental place to be for someone that's supposed to be delivering good customer service. I'm thinking of the future date when I go to HR to propose exactly what you did: half pay for half-time and WFH/Office flexibility, but with same benefits package. I'm also thinking my HR department will have a similar response as yours.
Cheers.
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Just spent 2.5 work days dealing with faulty software license issues just to get an ancillary program to translate a file from a different unsupported buggy layout tool into a crappy thermal simulation tool.
I am deeply tired of this sort of life killing hoop jumping just to get to my actual job. If I actually got to spend a decent chunk of my day on items in my job description I would not he looking so hard for a way out.
Seems like practically everybody I know in software feels this way. Writing code is fun, all the other crap, not so much.
I'm excited for when I can quit my software job so I can spend *more* of my time actually writing code :-)
That's exactly me. In fact, even now while still employed, I've gotten significantly more coding done in my free time than in my SWE job over the past several months. It's crazy; I have a run of near zero productivity at work, get all down on myself, then find myself coming out of a coding trance at the end of a day off amazed at how much I was able to get done. Not that it's a fair comparison - although my side projects are reasonably serious, they are not the sort of unknowable-by-any-individual behemoth I have wound up on in my professional life. Unsurprisingly, the one stretch of time when I absolutely loved my job was when the project was only a few times more complex than what would be possible in a personal project, rather than 1000x.
And of course, we should be honest about how code written at work differs from personal projects. I think the two biggies are exhaustive unit testing, and the process of getting your mind hooked into code written by other people. Unfortunately, you just can't get to a really big, impressive, and production-ready thing without those two. Boring megacorp jobs, while personally unsatisfying, are what it takes to get to the awe-inspiring things that run modern life.
Anyways, apologies for the brief derailment to everyone who also does not like working, but does not care about coding. Strictly on the main topic, I will say: yes, I have found that under almost all circumstances I just do not like working for an employer.
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That's exactly me. In fact, even now while still employed, I've gotten significantly more coding done in my free time than in my SWE job over the past several months. It's crazy; I have a run of near zero productivity at work, get all down on myself, then find myself coming out of a coding trance at the end of a day off amazed at how much I was able to get done. Not that it's a fair comparison - although my side projects are reasonably serious, they are not the sort of unknowable-by-any-individual behemoth I have wound up on in my professional life.
"unknowable-by-any-individual behemoth" -- that's exactly it! That's exactly what sucks about it!
Unsurprisingly, the one stretch of time when I absolutely loved my job was when the project was only a few times more complex than what would be possible in a personal project, rather than 1000x.
And of course, we should be honest about how code written at work differs from personal projects. I think the two biggies are exhaustive unit testing, and the process of getting your mind hooked into code written by other people. Unfortunately, you just can't get to a really big, impressive, and production-ready thing without those two.
True... I'm actually weird and kind of enjoy writing unit tests for my own code. Getting my mind hooked into code written by other people, though -- annoying. Having MEETINGS about other people's code and how to modify the code -- OOF.
(Continued this derail a bit. @ everyone else, please feel free to change subject back XD)
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Just spent 2.5 work days dealing with faulty software license issues just to get an ancillary program to translate a file from a different unsupported buggy layout tool into a crappy thermal simulation tool.
I am deeply tired of this sort of life killing hoop jumping just to get to my actual job. If I actually got to spend a decent chunk of my day on items in my job description I would not he looking so hard for a way out.
This is why we have our entire code stack built with open source software. Licensing
issues are such a pain in the ass. All of our staff use either chromebooks or computers
running Linux. A couple of the Linux machines have Windows running in a VM because
of some silly compatibility requirements, but all of the code I touch is open source.
New users are initially nonplussed with a Linux laptop, but they quickly get used to
the environment and are impressed with how fast it runs on older equipment. A number
of our users (the non-gamers) have switched to Linux on their older laptops at home.
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I know that feel moof. I'm a test engineer. I spend way more of my time fighting with test agent problems, Selenium drivers not working the same between different browser types, and an abandoned wrapper for Selenium that is supposed to make working with Selenium easier. The wrapper is mostly broken and just makes it harder to track down bugs. I would rewrite the test application to not use the wrapper and just use the Selenium API directly, but I'm not sure I can convince my manager to let me do that.
Haha. We are using Selenium too for SAP UI5. Every time they make an update to their UI something is broken in the old tests and needs to be rewritten. Means about once per quarter.
They also change the link to their help constantly, so even if you bookmarked something, half a year later it's 50/50 if you can find it.
If you want to work half-time and have a flexible company, try for 4 days (6 hours) with free Wednesday. I read about several people that are amazed how good that feels. And I can imagine why. 2 days are always manageable, right?
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I know that feel moof. I'm a test engineer. I spend way more of my time fighting with test agent problems, Selenium drivers not working the same between different browser types, and an abandoned wrapper for Selenium that is supposed to make working with Selenium easier. The wrapper is mostly broken and just makes it harder to track down bugs. I would rewrite the test application to not use the wrapper and just use the Selenium API directly, but I'm not sure I can convince my manager to let me do that.
Haha. We are using Selenium too for SAP UI5. Every time they make an update to their UI something is broken in the old tests and needs to be rewritten. Means about once per quarter.
They also change the link to their help constantly, so even if you bookmarked something, half a year later it's 50/50 if you can find it.
If you want to work half-time and have a flexible company, try for 4 days (6 hours) with free Wednesday. I read about several people that are amazed how good that feels. And I can imagine why. 2 days are always manageable, right?
Fortunately, the software I write UI tests against has remained pretty stable over the last couple of years. It's the new browser versions and selenium drivers that go with them that usually break our stuff. Chrome is fine. Firefox and Legacy Edge are going to kill me.
Less time would definitely be more manageable, but it would also come with a big pay cut. I'm too far away from my number to take a pay cut. If I were 80% to my goal, I would consider going part time, but that is still 6-7 years in the future. Even then, I think I would just continue to work full time. I'd rather feel the pain now rather than drag it out for an extra 3 years.
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I don't hate working (ok, sometimes I do), but there are definitely things about it that I dislike. There are times where I get involved in an interesting project and feel a sense of pride and accomplishment. My main problem is that I really like doing other things more.
One thing I definitely disdain is full-time work. Spending the majority of my waking hours working (or on work-related tasks like commuting, getting ready, being stuck at work for an unpaid but mandatory lunch hour, etc.) for 5 days per week feels like way too much, and always has.
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Just spent 2.5 work days dealing with faulty software license issues just to get an ancillary program to translate a file from a different unsupported buggy layout tool into a crappy thermal simulation tool.
I am deeply tired of this sort of life killing hoop jumping just to get to my actual job. If I actually got to spend a decent chunk of my day on items in my job description I would not he looking so hard for a way out.
I know that feel moof. I'm a test engineer. I spend way more of my time fighting with test agent problems, Selenium drivers not working the same between different browser types, and an abandoned wrapper for Selenium that is supposed to make working with Selenium easier. The wrapper is mostly broken and just makes it harder to track down bugs. I would rewrite the test application to not use the wrapper and just use the Selenium API directly, but I'm not sure I can convince my manager to let me do that.
I like playing with computers and coding, but I hate doing it for other people for pay. I look forward to the day I can step away from paid work. At this point, I'd rather spend my days walking around picking up litter than hunched over a computer trying to figure out how I'm going to un-fuck some broken system.
I get this totally. Large part of my job is trying to make excuses for software that has known faults and crashes all the time and has been like it for the last 10 years yet management will not put in the resources required to correct it. Whenever it goes down clients complain and then we have to make up some BS excuse why it happened when everyone really knows that the reason it persists is because management don't care enough to put in the required resources to properly fix it.
I also used to work in that industry, first as a programmer, later as a test manager. In software, you are always working for totally unrealistic release dates. And often with way too little design documentation and often testing involved too late. And what about technical issues with test labs, a constant trouble. I have worked in companies where some of these things have been better, although always those due dates. Unrealistic dates often mean you can't do your work as well as you want to. Or the product is realeased full of known errors. During the last years, I have also needed to work in noisy office landscapes, which means I can't concentrate at all.
I have switched jobs, but the grass is really not always greener on the other side. A new job may not always be what you expect from it. The other thing is that managers usually steer which project you are working on, which may not at all be aligned with your own wishes. And these decisions are made behind closed doors, instead of me involved, at least in my last job.
No, I don't mind working on something, but I would like to decide on what and at the speed. I also want to be able to go outside in nice weather and not sitting in an office, longingly looking out of the window. If you have windows at all that is. In my last job, I often worked in a test lab inside a mountain. Sometimes for long days and weeks at the time.
Last year, I didn't work at all and so far I love it. My mornings are my own. I can do whatever the f. I want.
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I don't mind actual work -- using my brain to solve problems, write, or create something. I do hate all the BS that comes with a 9-5 job, regardless of how good the company, mission, boss, or colleagues are.
I hate strategic planning, SMART goals, budgeting, meetings, conference calls, performance appraisals, reminding people of deadlines, feigning patience with idiots who didn't read the effing email, submitting timecards, filling out HR forms, commuting, office birthday parties, chipping in for baby shower gifts, wearing uncomfortable clothes, stressing at night, having other people control my time...
I'd love to know who these mythical unicorns are who "love their job." How can you love your job when it inevitably comes with all that BS?
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I hate strategic planning, SMART goals, budgeting, meetings, conference calls, performance appraisals, reminding people of deadlines, feigning patience with idiots who didn't read the effing email, submitting timecards, filling out HR forms, commuting, office birthday parties, chipping in for baby shower gifts, wearing uncomfortable clothes, stressing at night, having other people control my time...
And most of this stuff isn't even necessary. It's bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy.
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I hate strategic planning, SMART goals, budgeting, meetings, conference calls, performance appraisals, reminding people of deadlines, feigning patience with idiots who didn't read the effing email, submitting timecards, filling out HR forms, commuting, office birthday parties, chipping in for baby shower gifts, wearing uncomfortable clothes, stressing at night, having other people control my time...
And most of this stuff isn't even necessary. It's bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy.
The #1 reason my sister refused a HUGE promotion was that her new position would require her to do more bureaucratic work that as a highly experienced executive she knew wasn't necessary.
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I hate strategic planning, SMART goals, budgeting, meetings, conference calls, performance appraisals, reminding people of deadlines, feigning patience with idiots who didn't read the effing email, submitting timecards, filling out HR forms, commuting, office birthday parties, chipping in for baby shower gifts, wearing uncomfortable clothes, stressing at night, having other people control my time...
And most of this stuff isn't even necessary. It's bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy.
So this!! I don't have anything to add, but wanted to call it out. The real work is fine, but the bullsh$t tasks and groundhog-day of it all is the problem.
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I don't mind actual work -- using my brain to solve problems, write, or create something. I do hate all the BS that comes with a 9-5 job, regardless of how good the company, mission, boss, or colleagues are.
I hate strategic planning, SMART goals, budgeting, meetings, conference calls, performance appraisals, reminding people of deadlines, feigning patience with idiots who didn't read the effing email, submitting timecards, filling out HR forms, commuting, office birthday parties, chipping in for baby shower gifts, wearing uncomfortable clothes, stressing at night, having other people control my time...
I'd love to know who these mythical unicorns are who "love their job." How can you love your job when it inevitably comes with all that BS?
My husband loves his job, but also managed to get out of a lot of the BS. He was a tenure-track professor at Harvard and left to take a half-time adjunct position, with his other half-time just being a research appointment so he literally gets to just do research, which he likes, and has many fewer committee and admin duties than he would as a tenured professor. He loves it, even though it's obviously less presitigious and he gets paid less. But he still gets paid enough to give over 50% of his income to charity (last year) and prestige is pretty unimportant to him. So I think I'm going to be FIREd on my own for quite some time. I'm actually really jealous. I wish I had ever found something that resonated for me like this has for him.
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I love work. I love researching topics, I love coordinating with different people to get stuff done. I love learning new things. I love managing projects with lots of different moving parts.
I hate having a job. I hate dealing with petty people. I hate bullshit bureaucracy. I hate being expected to sit in an office for eight hours when the actual work takes three or four. I hate hearing two bosses in a row complain about how little they were paid (one gets $80,000+ in a laughably low cost of living area, the other gets $90,000 in a regular low cost of living area. The first dude probably has a household income over over $100,000, and the second lady definitely has a household income of over $200,000).
My current job is pretty awesome, although it's not the highest paying. My organization is run by people who are genuinely kind. I enjoy most of my work, and having a smaller paycheck motivated me to start my own editing business. I LOVE that. I can keep my skills fresh in case I ever change jobs, and if I retire then I've got another source of income for traveling/fun stuff. I have the best of both worlds now, and it's given me a lot of freedom.
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I don't mind actual work -- using my brain to solve problems, write, or create something. I do hate all the BS that comes with a 9-5 job, regardless of how good the company, mission, boss, or colleagues are.
I hate strategic planning, SMART goals, budgeting, meetings, conference calls, performance appraisals, reminding people of deadlines, feigning patience with idiots who didn't read the effing email, submitting timecards, filling out HR forms, commuting, office birthday parties, chipping in for baby shower gifts, wearing uncomfortable clothes, stressing at night, having other people control my time...
I'd love to know who these mythical unicorns are who "love their job." How can you love your job when it inevitably comes with all that BS?
My husband loves his job, but also managed to get out of a lot of the BS. He was a tenure-track professor at Harvard and left to take a half-time adjunct position, with his other half-time just being a research appointment so he literally gets to just do research, which he likes, and has many fewer committee and admin duties than he would as a tenured professor. He loves it, even though it's obviously less presitigious and he gets paid less. But he still gets paid enough to give over 50% of his income to charity (last year) and prestige is pretty unimportant to him. So I think I'm going to be FIREd on my own for quite some time. I'm actually really jealous. I wish I had ever found something that resonated for me like this has for him.
My husband is also an academic, so while I totally understand your post, it also made my mind explode! I cannot fathom walking away from a TT spot, especially at an ivy. But that is wonderful that your husband is so much happier now!
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Would you do your job if you weren't paid? If yes, then you love your job.
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Would you do your job if you weren't paid? If yes, then you love your job.
Sort of...it's a little more nuanced than that though, depending on what your options are.
I love my work, but I have so many ways to pivot that if one stops paying, I can focus my energies in another direction. That said, I've always done a ton of unpaid work, so there is that.
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I have spent quite some time during these last years thinking about what kind of work I want to do. I guess the answer is what pleases me. I work as a lawyer and have a lot of flexibility. I can work from home most of the week if I want and I have a boss I like. But I am still working for someone else. Some projects get delayed due to client wishes, which can seriously screw up all my planning. I have had a couple such projects that have forced me to work longer days then I wish and on sundays these past weeks. My coworker also have resigned, which means that we will soon be short of people.
I have thought about changing to some other profession but I would need to get back to school so I decided to go for fire instead. I like my field but I would probably play a different game IF I didn’t need to earn money to pay my bills. Based on my previous calculations I have about ten years left but quarantine have really boosted my savings rate so it might go faster. A move to a smaller city might also boost it all.
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I've got a ways to go.
Typical day today.
One coworker asks me to be part of a research project involving lasers. Oooh! Interesting.
Meanwhile my new supervisor who doesn't know the ropes and wants me to take lead on reorganizing another lab b/c they aren't replacing the last guy who left who used to have "ownership" over that space - cleaning, updating safety documentation, signage, etc.
What can I do but both? Generally speaking I like the place. I don't like the dinky tasks. Guess I'll bring my headphones and listen to podcasts while I clean.
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I don't mind actual work -- using my brain to solve problems, write, or create something. I do hate all the BS that comes with a 9-5 job, regardless of how good the company, mission, boss, or colleagues are.
I hate strategic planning, SMART goals, budgeting, meetings, conference calls, performance appraisals, reminding people of deadlines, feigning patience with idiots who didn't read the effing email, submitting timecards, filling out HR forms, commuting, office birthday parties, chipping in for baby shower gifts, wearing uncomfortable clothes, stressing at night, having other people control my time...
I'd love to know who these mythical unicorns are who "love their job." How can you love your job when it inevitably comes with all that BS?
What I hated most about work was performance appraisals! I would have to spend hours each December going through my diary to pick out "achievements". It was especially bad when I worked for a megacorp - the annual appraisal process was often very political. Rewards were completely uncorrelated with actual achievements.
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I don't mind actual work -- using my brain to solve problems, write, or create something. I do hate all the BS that comes with a 9-5 job, regardless of how good the company, mission, boss, or colleagues are.
I hate strategic planning, SMART goals, budgeting, meetings, conference calls, performance appraisals, reminding people of deadlines, feigning patience with idiots who didn't read the effing email, submitting timecards, filling out HR forms, commuting, office birthday parties, chipping in for baby shower gifts, wearing uncomfortable clothes, stressing at night, having other people control my time...
I'd love to know who these mythical unicorns are who "love their job." How can you love your job when it inevitably comes with all that BS?
It’s work worth doing. I love my peers. I love my direct reports. I love my regular clients. I love the diverse roles and associated tasks I can assume on any given day. I love what I do so much that I have my full time role at one place AND part time work at another place.
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I had always thought there was something seriously wrong with me as I never grasped the nuances of office politics, in both the public and private sectors. I just wanted to do my damn job and go home without participating in bitchiness or gossip (the library world I know was full if it). Now, as we don't *need* the money, I am an office temp and if I don't like a particular workplace I tell my job agency and refuse to work there again. I have received offers to work full-time or part-time at a few places but there is no way in hell. I love the variety and flexibility too much.
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Would you do your job if you weren't paid? If yes, then you love your job.
Sort of...it's a little more nuanced than that though, depending on what your options are.
I love my work, but I have so many ways to pivot that if one stops paying, I can focus my energies in another direction. That said, I've always done a ton of unpaid work, so there is that.
I flat out disagree with the comment.
A few years back I was laid off from my programming job (which I had grown to hate) . . . and I had 9 months off while searching for a new job. During that time I started programming again for fun (and for free). Doing it for fun, on my own schedule, and for my own reasons was a completely and totally different experience than doing it for money.
Like, I love to play my guitar too. It takes up a sizeable chunk of my spare time (and has done so for years). But I'm willing to bet that if I had to get up at 6 in the morning each weekday to drive an hour to a place to play music I don't like for 8-9 hrs a day with other people who hate playing, interrupted only with long and tedious meetings about what the corporate acceptable note choice would be in certain circumstances . . . that would soon be very miserable.
The circumstances surrounding your job and people you interact with day to day impact whether you love your work at least as much as whether or not you like what you do.
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I like my job, my staff, colleagues, boss, I like the work, my office space, although I hate the commute, but now I'm working from home so it's all good.
And yet . . . while I like my job, I don't like it enough to do it one day longer than I have to. I have about a dozen other things off the top of my head I would rather be doing, and taking a nap is high on that list. I'd rather be knitting or dying yarn, wood working or welding, gardening or cooking. I mean there's a whole giant world out there, so spending 40 hours per week on the job just doesn't seem like the best use of my time, except that I still have over 7 yrs on the clock.
I'm retiring on Aug. 4, 2028--it's a Friday and the end of a pay period. I could go on Wednesday but I'll give them two more days to finish out the week. But only bc I like my job. :)
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A few years back I was laid off from my programming job (which I had grown to hate) . . . and I had 9 months off while searching for a new job. During that time I started programming again for fun (and for free). Doing it for fun, on my own schedule, and for my own reasons was a completely and totally different experience than doing it for money.
Like, I love to play my guitar too. It takes up a sizeable chunk of my spare time (and has done so for years). But I'm willing to bet that if I had to get up at 6 in the morning each weekday to drive an hour to a place to play music I don't like for 8-9 hrs a day with other people who hate playing, interrupted only with long and tedious meetings about what the corporate acceptable note choice would be in certain circumstances . . . that would soon be very miserable.
The circumstances surrounding your job and people you interact with day to day impact whether you love your work at least as much as whether or not you like what you do.
This is such a great point, and I think encapsulates my feelings about working as a programmer as well. I plan to spend a lot of time programming once I've left work -- just, on my own terms.
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I'm retiring on Aug. 4, 2028--it's a Friday and the end of a pay period. I could go on Wednesday but I'll give them two more days to finish out the week. But only bc I like my job. :)
Oh what precise timing of commencement of your FIREtirement!
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Would you do your job if you weren't paid? If yes, then you love your job.
Sort of...it's a little more nuanced than that though, depending on what your options are.
I love my work, but I have so many ways to pivot that if one stops paying, I can focus my energies in another direction. That said, I've always done a ton of unpaid work, so there is that.
I flat out disagree with the comment.
A few years back I was laid off from my programming job (which I had grown to hate) . . . and I had 9 months off while searching for a new job. During that time I started programming again for fun (and for free). Doing it for fun, on my own schedule, and for my own reasons was a completely and totally different experience than doing it for money.
Like, I love to play my guitar too. It takes up a sizeable chunk of my spare time (and has done so for years). But I'm willing to bet that if I had to get up at 6 in the morning each weekday to drive an hour to a place to play music I don't like for 8-9 hrs a day with other people who hate playing, interrupted only with long and tedious meetings about what the corporate acceptable note choice would be in certain circumstances . . . that would soon be very miserable.
The circumstances surrounding your job and people you interact with day to day impact whether you love your work at least as much as whether or not you like what you do.
Nothing I said is incompatible with what you have said. You're describing examples where the paid version of an activity is markedly different from the unpaid version.
That's apples and oranges.
OF COURSE the circumstances of jobs matter. That's part of why I prefer paid work, because most of my opportunities to do my work unpaid involve circumstances I dislike, like working with a bunch of egotistical saviour-complex, power tripping assholes. In other areas of my work, doing work for free is the only viable option, so it completely depends on the circumstances.
That's why I said there's more nuance to it than just the flat statement that the only people who love their jobs are those who would do it for free.
My point wasn't that circumstances don't matter, and I have no idea how you got that from my post.
My personal example was that I have *so many* fantastic options for doing paid work I love on my own terms, that if a paid option stops paying, I'm likely to move on to a different, equally fun paid option instead of just sticking around unpaid.
But that doesn't mean I didn't love the work.
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Would you do your job if you weren't paid? If yes, then you love your job.
Sort of...it's a little more nuanced than that though, depending on what your options are.
I love my work, but I have so many ways to pivot that if one stops paying, I can focus my energies in another direction. That said, I've always done a ton of unpaid work, so there is that.
I flat out disagree with the comment.
A few years back I was laid off from my programming job (which I had grown to hate) . . . and I had 9 months off while searching for a new job. During that time I started programming again for fun (and for free). Doing it for fun, on my own schedule, and for my own reasons was a completely and totally different experience than doing it for money.
Like, I love to play my guitar too. It takes up a sizeable chunk of my spare time (and has done so for years). But I'm willing to bet that if I had to get up at 6 in the morning each weekday to drive an hour to a place to play music I don't like for 8-9 hrs a day with other people who hate playing, interrupted only with long and tedious meetings about what the corporate acceptable note choice would be in certain circumstances . . . that would soon be very miserable.
The circumstances surrounding your job and people you interact with day to day impact whether you love your work at least as much as whether or not you like what you do.
Nothing I said is incompatible with what you have said. You're describing examples where the paid version of an activity is markedly different from the unpaid version.
That's apples and oranges.
OF COURSE the circumstances of jobs matter. That's part of why I prefer paid work, because most of my opportunities to do my work unpaid involve circumstances I dislike, like working with a bunch of egotistical saviour-complex, power tripping assholes. In other areas of my work, doing work for free is the only viable option, so it completely depends on the circumstances.
That's why I said there's more nuance to it than just the flat statement that the only people who love their jobs are those who would do it for free.
My point wasn't that circumstances don't matter, and I have no idea how you got that from my post.
My personal example was that I have *so many* fantastic options for doing paid work I love on my own terms, that if a paid option stops paying, I'm likely to move on to a different, equally fun paid option instead of just sticking around unpaid.
But that doesn't mean I didn't love the work.
I was responding to Hawkeye, not you Malcat. Sorry, grabbed the wrong post while replying!
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Would you do your job if you weren't paid? If yes, then you love your job.
Sort of...it's a little more nuanced than that though, depending on what your options are.
I love my work, but I have so many ways to pivot that if one stops paying, I can focus my energies in another direction. That said, I've always done a ton of unpaid work, so there is that.
I flat out disagree with the comment.
A few years back I was laid off from my programming job (which I had grown to hate) . . . and I had 9 months off while searching for a new job. During that time I started programming again for fun (and for free). Doing it for fun, on my own schedule, and for my own reasons was a completely and totally different experience than doing it for money.
Like, I love to play my guitar too. It takes up a sizeable chunk of my spare time (and has done so for years). But I'm willing to bet that if I had to get up at 6 in the morning each weekday to drive an hour to a place to play music I don't like for 8-9 hrs a day with other people who hate playing, interrupted only with long and tedious meetings about what the corporate acceptable note choice would be in certain circumstances . . . that would soon be very miserable.
The circumstances surrounding your job and people you interact with day to day impact whether you love your work at least as much as whether or not you like what you do.
Nothing I said is incompatible with what you have said. You're describing examples where the paid version of an activity is markedly different from the unpaid version.
That's apples and oranges.
OF COURSE the circumstances of jobs matter. That's part of why I prefer paid work, because most of my opportunities to do my work unpaid involve circumstances I dislike, like working with a bunch of egotistical saviour-complex, power tripping assholes. In other areas of my work, doing work for free is the only viable option, so it completely depends on the circumstances.
That's why I said there's more nuance to it than just the flat statement that the only people who love their jobs are those who would do it for free.
My point wasn't that circumstances don't matter, and I have no idea how you got that from my post.
My personal example was that I have *so many* fantastic options for doing paid work I love on my own terms, that if a paid option stops paying, I'm likely to move on to a different, equally fun paid option instead of just sticking around unpaid.
But that doesn't mean I didn't love the work.
I was responding to Hawkeye, not you Malcat. Sorry, grabbed the wrong post while replying!
Hahahaha! I was SO CONFUSED
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I think the original question was are you here because you dont like working. I didnt like working anymore as I was self-employed with up to 50 employees at times. I do still feel the need/desire to feel productive in being Fire'd. Sometimes it feels like work and sometimes it doesnt BUT in either case I like it a hell of alot more than what I was doing.
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I don't mind actual work -- using my brain to solve problems, write, or create something. I do hate all the BS that comes with a 9-5 job, regardless of how good the company, mission, boss, or colleagues are.
I hate strategic planning, SMART goals, budgeting, meetings, conference calls, performance appraisals, reminding people of deadlines, feigning patience with idiots who didn't read the effing email, submitting timecards, filling out HR forms, commuting, office birthday parties, chipping in for baby shower gifts, wearing uncomfortable clothes, stressing at night, having other people control my time...
I'd love to know who these mythical unicorns are who "love their job." How can you love your job when it inevitably comes with all that BS?
What I hated most about work was performance appraisals! I would have to spend hours each December going through my diary to pick out "achievements". It was especially bad when I worked for a megacorp - the annual appraisal process was often very political. Rewards were completely uncorrelated with actual achievements.
Oh, I hate those too. I used to just copy and paste from the previous year.
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I like doing things, solving mysteries, but I don't like the structure of work - the structure of 9-5 as others have said and the complete lack of flexibility of my time. I have very autonomous setup, no direct reports, report directly to a very senior person in the org, can do my duties in 2-3 hrs daily, and still, I really have the expectation of the 9-5 and only 2 weeks vacation. If I were a writer (and not need the income that much), or an independent scientist (like it was in the middle ages), or a private detective (like in the show Elementary) or an artists or some profession where i can set my own hours an am not a cog in the greater machinery of an organization, I would be happy to do "work." Being part of an organization is extremely limiting.
That is why I am here, I think, and for the financial security.
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It's not working that bothers me. It's working on someone else's projects and schedules. But ya, working for the man is miserable for me about half the time, to the point where I read retire early blogs and calculate every single cent I own to get the hours left to work before I can stop working for the man. I plan on "working" on something after FI, but it won't be something that rekts my life like a normal job does.
I think there is also a new dynamic now too. I mean, if I can sit at home and collect stimmie checks and pay my bills, WHY would I keep working a stressful, disruptive, and unrewarding modern day slave job? My goal has always been to get my expenses as LOW as possible (solar, water capture, garden, passive tax free income, etc) so I can qualify for all this free money instead of being a wage slave that pays 6 figure taxes.
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It seems I probably don't like working. I've worked in a lot of different fields and environments and always feel a mixture of stress, annoyance, and boredom. There are parts of jobs I've liked a lot. But I still harbor some level of resentment toward whatever constraints are put on my freedom. Like I hate the arbitrariness of "work clothes."
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I never liked working; two main reasons:
- I find difficult people almost in every workplace and find it hard to deal with them. Slightly difficult situations and people are everywhere but I probably focus too much on them and they become bigger in my mind
- I enjoy my laziness and my freedom to do whatever I want; whether it be watching netflix or reading books or taking a stroll in the park. Don't like selling that freedom and "lazying around" for money
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I enjoy my laziness and my freedom to do whatever I want
+1
Life is finite.
As an Epicurean hedonist who luxuriates in ataraxia, nothing surpasses my enjoyment of my FIREtirement's leisure time to think, do whatever else I want, or nothing at all.
"I love to work at nothing all day."
"Takin' Care Of Business" Bachman–Turner Overdrive
You get up every morning from your alarm clock's warning
Take the 8:15 into the city
There's a whistle up above and people pushin', people shovin'
And the girls who try to look pretty
And if your train's on time, you can get to work by nine
And start your slaving job to get your pay
If you ever get annoyed, look at me I'm self-employed
I love to work at nothing all day
And I'll be taking care of business (every day)
Taking care of business (every way)
I've been taking care of business (it's all mine)
Taking care of business and working overtime, work out
If it were easy as fishin' you could be a musician
If you could make sounds loud or mellow
Get a second-hand guitar, chances are you'll go far
If you get in with the right bunch of fellows
People see you…
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I actually liked alot about my last career.
I did alot of troubleshooting and problem solving and had alot of freedom for the solutions.
What sucked my soul out was the way of megacorp, made worse by my decision to move to management on a one way ticket with no way to return to my previous job due to up or out policy.
Behind general megacorp drama with management and costly inefficient decisions that make no sense.... My number 2 stresser was scheduling. My job had a super rigid schedule with no flexibility.
I've decided to go out on my own in a similar field and focus on the parts I like about troubleshooting and maintenance work and eliminate the parts I don't.... Like following Senior Management decisions that make no sense (I'll be my own boss, so I have no one but myself to question for crazy decisions)
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I think most people hate being forced to do things they don't want to do and with some jobs that problem is exacerbated by bad bosses. Unless your job is your passion, most people would rather do something else.
Well, I can say that even if your job is your passion, it can still suck if you don’t have good work life balance. Even if you simply adore chocolate mint chip ice cream, you won’t be happy if you have to eat 5lbs of it at one sitting. Similarly .....
I chose early retirement because I wanted a job that was meaningful, a job at which I was always learning new things, a job where I had lots of responsibility and autonomy, a job that challenged me, etc. At the same time, I wanted this job to be about 25 to 30 hours a week and absolutely not follow me home at evenings and on the weekends. Since, after going through 2 1/2 careers, I realized that there is no such job on this planet, I decided to retire early.
Even in early retirement, it is not always obvious how to balance fun and obligations (because there will always be obligations, some of which you bring upon yourself through volunteering, some of which consist of long term “fun” projects that turn out to have less than completely fun aspects to them, and some of which just involve the nitty-gritty of life), but at least it is feasible to find a nice balance and I get pretty close most days.
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I enjoy working, but I don't enjoy the stress involved of having to work or the bills won't get paid. In other words, its nice working without financial stress and to be able to choose what I want to do with the income only being part of the consideration.
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I think most people hate being forced to do things they don't want to do and with some jobs that problem is exacerbated by bad bosses. Unless your job is your passion, most people would rather do something else.
Well, I can say that even if your job is your passion, it can still suck if you don’t have good work life balance. Even if you simply adore chocolate mint chip ice cream, you won’t be happy if you have to eat 5lbs of it at one sitting. Similarly .....
I chose early retirement because I wanted a job that was meaningful, a job at which I was always learning new things, a job where I had lots of responsibility and autonomy, a job that challenged me, etc. At the same time, I wanted this job to be about 25 to 30 hours a week and absolutely not follow me home at evenings and on the weekends. Since, after going through 2 1/2 careers, I realized that there is no such job on this planet, I decided to retire early.
Even in early retirement, it is not always obvious how to balance fun and obligations (because there will always be obligations, some of which you bring upon yourself through volunteering, some of which consist of long term “fun” projects that turn out to have less than completely fun aspects to them, and some of which just involve the nitty-gritty of life), but at least it is feasible to find a nice balance and I get pretty close most days.
There is such a job, I had several of them, and am currently pulling out my hair trying to decide between two more options, which are in completely different fields.