Who has the best Cult? Dave Ramsey or MMM?

[jinga nation]

The BogleHeads cult is older than MMM's. And in it's previous incarnation as the Diehards forum at Morningstar.

BH is a cult. Saying "Feck" will get you a warning. Any spicy language will get you banned. The fogies there don't like spicy language, and giving a verbal facepunch will result in a mod's wrath.

But it is the best cult, because lazy portfolios and tons of great resources to read. They have very technical forums, with some smart heavyweights posting there. And then you'll have the folks who ask you to help justify their $5000 Rolex purchase or new Porsche.

[nereo]

The BogleHeads cult is older than MMM's. And in it's previous incarnation as the Diehards forum at Morningstar.

BH is a cult. Saying "Feck" will get you a warning. Any spicy language will get you banned. The fogies there don't like spicy language, and giving a verbal facepunch will result in a mod's wrath.

But it is the best cult, because lazy portfolios and tons of great resources to read. They have very technical forums, with some smart heavyweights posting there. And then you'll have the folks who ask you to help justify their $5000 Rolex purchase or new Porsche.

Anytime I want to feel financially well off I poke around the DR forums

Anytime I want to feel poor I head over to bogleheads

[sherr]

The BogleHeads cult is older than MMM's. And in it's previous incarnation as the Diehards forum at Morningstar.

BH is a cult. Saying "Feck" will get you a warning. Any spicy language will get you banned. The fogies there don't like spicy language, and giving a verbal facepunch will result in a mod's wrath.

How on earth does that make it a cult? They simply have a different image that they are trying to cultivate. A more "respectable businessman" image if you will, vs MMM's "rootin-tootin cowboy of the financial wild west" image. Not every forum on the internet that has forum rules that you don't like is a "cult".

I have often heard DR followers justify their plan with "well that's what Dave says" in response to criticism, which sure is pretty cultish. I have sometimes heard people here do the same with MMM's advice, but they usually get criticized a little for it. and people typically revert to actual facts and math. Far less cultish, but maybe a little. I've never gotten the impression that Bogleheads are following John Bogle's advice without actual understanding (or anyone else's).

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

The BogleHeads cult is older than MMM's. And in it's previous incarnation as the Diehards forum at Morningstar.

BH is a cult. Saying "Feck" will get you a warning. Any spicy language will get you banned. The fogies there don't like spicy language, and giving a verbal facepunch will result in a mod's wrath.

But it is the best cult, because lazy portfolios and tons of great resources to read. They have very technical forums, with some smart heavyweights posting there. And then you'll have the folks who ask you to help justify their $5000 Rolex purchase or new Porsche.

I don't have any difficulty justifying a $5000 Rolex or new Porsche (well, maybe the Porsche should be 3 years old to take advantage of the depreciation curve, but for a GT3 or GT4 the depreciation is barely there). I'm glad that this forum has a good spread of financial opinions. Also Rolexes, though not my thing, hold value extremely well. If you pick an asset that holds value well and/or you make it tax deductible (and in my country it's extremely easy to make vehicles tax deductible if you're self employed) then it can be surprisingly cheap.

One reason I think the MMM "cult" is superior to a lot of others is that we allow many, many divergent views. And that's wonderful.

I have unorthodox views in that I'm pretty neoliberal, but I am very rarely flamed on this forum, and I'm never moderated. That's so great. On other forums I've been banned just for expressing my views. I don't think you'll find a post where I'm rude or I resort to personal attacks, so it's not like my manner was personally aggressive. I love the intellectual freedom we have on these forums. It's similar to real life where I hang out with a bunch of pretty cool people and can put up controversial opinions and people recognise it as an intellectual sport, not some sort of personal war.

[nereo]

The BogleHeads cult is older than MMM's. And in it's previous incarnation as the Diehards forum at Morningstar.

BH is a cult. Saying "Feck" will get you a warning. Any spicy language will get you banned. The fogies there don't like spicy language, and giving a verbal facepunch will result in a mod's wrath.

But it is the best cult, because lazy portfolios and tons of great resources to read. They have very technical forums, with some smart heavyweights posting there. And then you'll have the folks who ask you to help justify their $5000 Rolex purchase or new Porsche.

I don't have any difficulty justifying a $5000 Rolex or new Porsche (well, maybe the Porsche should be 3 years old to take advantage of the depreciation curve, but for a GT3 or GT4 the depreciation is barely there). I'm glad that this forum has a good spread of financial opinions. Also Rolexes, though not my thing, hold value extremely well. If you pick an asset that holds value well and/or you make it tax deductible (and in my country it's extremely easy to make vehicles tax deductible if you're self employed) then it can be surprisingly cheap.

One reason I think the MMM "cult" is superior to a lot of others is that we allow many, many divergent views. And that's wonderful.

I have unorthodox views in that I'm pretty neoliberal, but I am very rarely flamed on this forum, and I'm never moderated. That's so great. On other forums I've been banned just for expressing my views. I don't think you'll find a post where I'm rude or I resort to personal attacks, so it's not like my manner was personally aggressive. I love the intellectual freedom we have on these forums. It's similar to real life where I hang out with a bunch of pretty cool people and can put up controversial opinions and people recognise it as an intellectual sport, not some sort of personal war.

I agree that one of the things I like about this particular forum (and is severely constrained in both DR and BH) is the freedom permitted to discuss a variety of viewpoints in a civil manner.  Tip of the hat to the mods, who help make that happen.  It's not easy allowing a lot of opinions while keeping it from becoming a raging dumpster fire (like much of Reddit).

It's weird we've settled into discussing $5k rolex watches and Porches.  Personally I have an ethical problem with both - particularly the Rolex.  In brief, I don't like luxury objects who's sole function is to signal wealth.  A $5k Rolex watch does not perform it's sole fucntion demonstrably better than it's $50 counterparts. IMO at that end of the spectrum it's no longer about style or design, but social signaling (in a very F-you, 'I'm better than you,' consumeristic sort of way).

As for 'holding it's value' - meh.  I totally get how luxury jewelry can maintain and even increase their value.  As for luxury vehiches... that's been discussed on this forum and typically requires the owner to conveniently ignore a lot of additional factors, like opportunity cost, insurance, maintenance and storage.  Every so often a car becomes a classic collectable and skyrockets in value, but the majority don't, and there's (almost) always the requirement that it's not actually driven much and kept in near-new condition. In other words... you can't use your Porshe like a normal car and expect to come out ahead.  Those that argue that Porches are 'a better value because they depreciate less' are - IME - ignoring the above factors.

[bloodaxe]

Depends on their finance "wheaton level".



A person at level 1 will think that level 2 is obtainable, level 3 (dave ramsey) is strange, and everything after is crazy.

But a person at level 3 will think level 4 is obtainable but level 5 (MMM) is strange.

Most of America is at level 1, so Dave Ramsey is going to be much more appealing than MMM.

[lhamo]

Love that table.

If you allocate spending on a per-capita basis, we are somewhere around level 6 at this point.  Which also feels about right in terms of the other descriptors.  After the kids launch and I move somewhere with a better setup for year-round food productions (chickens, I'm looking at you....) I might move up to level 7. 

I read Your Money Or Your Life while still in grad school with no debt so we probably started our journey somewhere between level 3-4   --  back in 1997 the million dollar goal seemed much further away but on a practical level we were pretty much already at level 4.

[John Galt incarnate!]

  In brief, I don't like luxury objects who's sole function is to signal wealth. 

One of my dearest older friends is a sage Jewish matron.

She told me that women wear their expensive jewelry so that other women can see it.

[John Galt incarnate!]

One reason I think the MMM "cult" is superior to a lot of others is that we allow many, many divergent views. And that's wonderful.

Hear, hear!

MMM is a superior website.


 "If there is any principle of the Constitution that more imperatively calls for attachment than any other, it is the principle of free thought—not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought that we hate." Justice Holmes


"Of that  freedom [of speech] one may say that it is the matrix, the indispensable condition, of nearly every other form of freedom." Justice Cardozo


The "right to criticize either by temperate reasoning or by immoderate and indecent invective, [is] normally the privilege of the individual in countries dependent upon the free expression of opinion as the ultimate source of authority."  Judge Learned Hand

[talltexan]

To understand the Ramsey values, you really need to read The Legacy Journey. (ETA: a lot of non-Christians find Ramsey useful for getting control of their debt and spending, but the deeper questions about a lifetime approach to ethics cannot be separated from Ramsey's reliance on Evangelical Christianity)

To understand the MMM values, you really need to read https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/

Both movements are ultimately about creating people who share these values. You choose your movement based on yours.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

It's weird we've settled into discussing $5k rolex watches and Porches.  Personally I have an ethical problem with both - particularly the Rolex.  In brief, I don't like luxury objects who's sole function is to signal wealth.  A $5k Rolex watch does not perform it's sole fucntion demonstrably better than it's $50 counterparts. IMO at that end of the spectrum it's no longer about style or design, but social signaling (in a very F-you, 'I'm better than you,' consumeristic sort of way).

I agree the Rolex (and almost any luxury good) has a problematic aspect as it's partly - not solely in my view, as the mechanical craftsmanship is far better than a $50 watch - there to signify wealth. At some level this becomes obscene. In my view most yachts are obscene. In your view a Rolex is obscene. We each have different tolerances for lavish objects. I don't disagree that most luxury items have some degree of problematic signalling attached.

As for holding value, my point isn't that it's value neutral, for there are considerable maintenance costs, but if you buy carefully it's a lot cheaper than it would otherwise seem and it can be fairly affordable despite the 'on paper' cost. Most cars and watches hold value very badly, but some cars and watches (and bags and other things) hold value very well so if you're going to buy something nice at least try to do your research.

[vand]

I think there is a fundamental difference between what DR does and what FIRE/MMM does.

DR is very much a top-down institution. You buy into his teachings and do not deviate from the one true path (ie baby steps). Yes you can win that way and that may be the type of handholding that a lot of people need.

FIRE as I see it is very much a grass roots movement, and obviously MMM is the most well known practitioner, but there is no one true path and it recognises that everyone has their own way of doing things. You can philosophically have a debate between one person who aggressively overpays their mortgage and another who doesn’t intend paying it off at all and invests all their cashflow instead. DR would shut that sort of debate down immediately.

That’s why I don’t see much overlap between them. A rigid rule based approach will work if you’re crap with money. If you have good money habits already then FI is a much better community to express yourself.

[ericrugiero]

To understand the Ramsey values, you really need to read The Legacy Journey. (ETA: a lot of non-Christians find Ramsey useful for getting control of their debt and spending, but the deeper questions about a lifetime approach to ethics cannot be separated from Ramsey's reliance on Evangelical Christianity)

To understand the MMM values, you really need to read https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/

Both movements are ultimately about creating people who share these values. You choose your movement based on yours.

I tend to take what I want from both camps.  It's not an either/or proposition.  Both Ramsey and MMM have some very good wisdom and practices to share.  Both have things I don't agree with and things that I'm much less hardcore about.  Both are fantastic at communicating and motivating. 

[kevj1085]

The thing I hate about the DR group & even the blogs is it’s always his way or you are blocked. The MMM  crowd is much more open to debate & discussion & finding what really works for you.  I see nothing wrong with responsible credit card or HELOC use. Buying cash flowing rental properties with a mortgage is something the DR crowd will miss out on.

Do you think this is because he has a "method" and if people start accepting corner cutting on his suggestions and it goes accepted, it becomes a "oh well Dave ramsey said I could carry debt on my rental loan, etc. etc."? It seems he has more of a business brand to uphold, whereas MMM can say what he wants.

[Malcat]

The thing I hate about the DR group & even the blogs is it’s always his way or you are blocked. The MMM  crowd is much more open to debate & discussion & finding what really works for you.  I see nothing wrong with responsible credit card or HELOC use. Buying cash flowing rental properties with a mortgage is something the DR crowd will miss out on.

Do you think this is because he has a "method" and if people start accepting corner cutting on his suggestions and it goes accepted, it becomes a "oh well Dave ramsey said I could carry debt on my rental loan, etc. etc."? It seems he has more of a business brand to uphold, whereas MMM can say what he wants.

Yes, that's exactly it. He doesn't just have more of a business brand, he has a full on multi media business structure whose purpose is to sell as much product as possible. His product is his system, so he builds a culture around reverence of the system.

DR is running a major business with an intense focus on maximizing his market share, MMM occasionally writes opinion pieces with little regard for how they will be recieved, and generally disregards his market share.

From a consumer point of view, yes, they seem quite similar, but from a top down point of view they could not be more different.

[norajean]

I think Suze Ormen could buy and sell both of them.

[ericrugiero]

I think Suze Ormen could buy and sell both of them.

No, google says Suze is worth between 30 and 75 million depending which site you believe.  She could buy and sell MMM who doesn't seem motivated to reach that level of wealth so he has stopped trying to make money and gives a lot away.  Ramsey is worth over 200 million (and also gives a lot of money away) but he is still trying to make money so I wouldn't expect Suze to ever come close to catching him. 

[Malcat]

I think Suze Ormen could buy and sell both of them.

No, google says Suze is worth between 30 and 75 million depending which site you believe.  She could buy and sell MMM who doesn't seem motivated to reach that level of wealth so he has stopped trying to make money and gives a lot away.  Ramsey is worth over 200 million (and also gives a lot of money away) but he is still trying to make money so I wouldn't expect Suze to ever come close to catching him.

Thank you for putting actual numbers to what I've been trying to say throughout this whole thread.

These two entities are WILDLY different, they only appear similar in the most superficial of ways.

[nereo]

I think Suze Ormen could buy and sell both of them.

No, google says Suze is worth between 30 and 75 million depending which site you believe.  She could buy and sell MMM who doesn't seem motivated to reach that level of wealth so he has stopped trying to make money and gives a lot away.  Ramsey is worth over 200 million (and also gives a lot of money away) but he is still trying to make money so I wouldn't expect Suze to ever come close to catching him.

Thank you for putting actual numbers to what I've been trying to say throughout this whole thread.

These two entities are WILDLY different, they only appear similar in the most superficial of ways.

It also suggests that both would be willing to sell their brand for enough money.  Given that MMM has repeatedly turned down offers to sell his blog (even though he's pretty passive overall) I'm not sure an offer would be accepted.  DR lends his name to all sorts of stuff (e.g. syndicated radio personalities; paid seminar speakers, real-estate courses) so I think he'd be more responsive to a buyer.  But then again, what a company is worth is often far more than its current book-value. If Dave can earn a couple million each year through his name, typically it would cost an order of magnitude (or more) to gain control.

tl;dr - Suze likely doesn't have anywhere close to 'buy' DR, and MMM seems unlikely to be for sale anyway.

[ericrugiero]

It also suggests that both would be willing to sell their brand for enough money.  Given that MMM has repeatedly turned down offers to sell his blog (even though he's pretty passive overall) I'm not sure an offer would be accepted.  DR lends his name to all sorts of stuff (e.g. syndicated radio personalities; paid seminar speakers, real-estate courses) so I think he'd be more responsive to a buyer.  But then again, what a company is worth is often far more than its current book-value. If Dave can earn a couple million each year through his name, typically it would cost an order of magnitude (or more) to gain control.

tl;dr - Suze likely doesn't have anywhere close to 'buy' DR, and MMM seems unlikely to be for sale anyway.

"could by and sell" is just a phrase to say they have more money.  I can't see either DR or MMM being willing to sell.  MMM is not actively pursuing more money plus he doesn't want to sell his blog and see it used for anything he doesn't like.  DR enjoys his work, wants to help people and wants to leave the business to his kids.  So, neither wants to sell and neither needs more money than they already have.  The only way I could see either one being willing to sell is if they were convinced that selling would align with their values and do more good than continuing to own.