Author Topic: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"  (Read 212986 times)

Captain FIRE

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #900 on: January 31, 2022, 07:25:08 AM »
This is exactly why people get so irritated with the unvaccinated.  They are a minority of the population yet they are absolutely wrecking our medical system out of sheer stupidity/stubbornness at this point.  The vaccines are very effective at keeping people out of the hospital.  These statistics above illustrate that point.  This is why medical professionals have been blue in the face begging people to get vaccinated.

x1000

mizzourah2006

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #901 on: January 31, 2022, 07:26:24 AM »
It would be interesting to see what % of people 18+ have received no vaccine and also have not gotten Covid at this point (I.e. true Sars-cov-2 virgins). I feel like people are creating a fictional "unvaccinated" enemy at this point.

Read the thread - I've posted hospital statistics multiple times throughout.

75% of hospitalized people are unvaccinated. I suppose it's possible that those people have all lied about their vaccination status, but that seems unlikely.

I have no idea whether or not those people have had covid before, as the hospital systems I keep up with don't post that information.

I'm not denying that the unvaccinated are a major part of the hospitalization, my main point is they are a tiny fraction of the US population. We're talking about less than 15% of the population of those over 30. So really when we are whining about all the unvaccinated people we're whining about kids 20 and younger the group that has been largely untouched by this pandemic from a severe disease and death perspective.

I do find it interesting that the unvaccinated still make up 75% of all hospitalizations (including with and from covid) at this point though. If you think about it's kind of a crazy anomaly. Even if you look at the data for fully vaccinated 40+ you're likely looking at ~80% fully vaccinated. So, 80% of people 40+ in the US are fully vaccinated and ~75% of people 25+ are fully vaccinated and yet those ~25% still account for 75% of all hospitalizations? That's actually pretty impressive. Or am I reading that wrong and the 75% figure you're quoting is specifically for Covid related treatments? That would make way more sense, but I was under the impression they weren't really distinguishing between hospitalized from and with covid in almost all cases.

This is exactly why people get so irritated with the unvaccinated.  They are a minority of the population yet they are absolutely wrecking our medical system out of sheer stupidity/stubbornness at this point.  The vaccines are very effective at keeping people out of the hospital.  These statistics above illustrate that point.  This is why medical professionals have been blue in the face begging people to get vaccinated.

I guess my point was more along the lines of we've been overwhelmingly successful. 85%+ of those 30+ have had at least one dose of the vaccine. People keep pointing to the Polio vaccine as a vaccine that Americans rallied around and came out to get. From what I can tell only 56% of the population got it between 1962-1965. I get that it's frustrating, but it's like screaming into a mirror at this point. The 15% that haven't gotten vaccinated aren't going to change their mind now and in reality they are all probably a few months away from being dead or having protection against it via natural immunity. At this point we're better off yelling at vaccinated people that eat at McDonald's and don't exercise than we are at trying to convince the 15% that they should go get the jab.

jrhampt

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #902 on: January 31, 2022, 07:36:33 AM »
AAUGH.  The problem is that the majority of the unvaccinated are NOT a few months away from being dead or having protection through "natural immunity".  Some of them will die, yes.  Many of them will just clog up the hospital system for weeks and then slowly recover or relapse because their bodies are weakened.  They will have an increase of 40% in all cause mortality even after recovering from COVID in the following year, if I'm remembering correctly.  The ones who do recover are at least 2-3 times more likely to get reinfected as those who have been vaccinated.  And when they do get reinfected (I know MANY people who have had COVID multiple times at this point), they may go to the hospital again.  Repeat with no end in sight and our medical system is already more than exhausted.

Captain FIRE

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #903 on: January 31, 2022, 07:39:43 AM »
I guess my point was more along the lines of we've been overwhelmingly successful. 85%+ of those 30+ have had at least one dose of the vaccine. People keep pointing to the Polio vaccine as a vaccine that Americans rallied around and came out to get. From what I can tell only 56% of the population got it between 1962-1965. I get that it's frustrating, but it's like screaming into a mirror at this point. The 15% that haven't gotten vaccinated aren't going to change their mind now and in reality they are all probably a few months away from being dead or having protection against it via natural immunity. At this point we're better off yelling at vaccinated people that eat at McDonald's and don't exercise than we are at trying to convince the 15% that they should go get the jab.

Health care system is overwhelmed and as a result:
- People are dying or have other adverse outcomes due to delayed "optional" treatment (elective surgeries)
- We're still losing more health care professionals from the profession than we can deal with/replace due to burnout, stress
- Society will be paying the increased cost of health care for COVID hospitalizations/long-term COVID for a long time

Yelling at the unvaccinated (*cough*, such as you with your kids.......) may not be productive, but when it's all you feel you've got to address the above, it's probably going to continue.

mizzourah2006

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #904 on: January 31, 2022, 07:44:43 AM »
AAUGH.  The problem is that the majority of the unvaccinated are NOT a few months away from being dead or having protection through "natural immunity".  Some of them will die, yes.  Many of them will just clog up the hospital system for weeks and then slowly recover or relapse because their bodies are weakened.  They will have an increase of 40% in all cause mortality even after recovering from COVID in the following year, if I'm remembering correctly.  The ones who do recover are at least 2-3 times more likely to get reinfected as those who have been vaccinated.  And when they do get reinfected (I know MANY people who have had COVID multiple times at this point), they may go to the hospital again.

So you're saying natural immunity isn't a thing? The CDC study and the Israeli study are wrong. Can you point me to the sources that say there is no such thing as natural immunity?

This is from the CDC study:

By early October, compared with unvaccinated people who didn’t have a prior infection, case rates were:

— 6-fold lower in California and 4.5-fold lower in New York in those who were vaccinated but not previously infected.

— 29-fold lower in California and 15-fold lower in New York in those who had been infected but never vaccinated.

— 32.5-fold lower in California and 20-fold lower in New York in those who had been infected and vaccinated.

Obviously things changed with Omicron, but the evidence is overwhelming that having gotten any vaccine provided protection against severe illness or death for Omicron. Given everything we've seen previously about natural immunity providing as much if not more protection against previous variants it would be a pretty bold claim to say that it offered superior protection for Delta, but did literally nothing for Omicron, but a vaccine that didn't work very well for delta somehow provides robust protection against Omicron. We'll know more in the coming months as more data comes out though.


I guess my point was more along the lines of we've been overwhelmingly successful. 85%+ of those 30+ have had at least one dose of the vaccine. People keep pointing to the Polio vaccine as a vaccine that Americans rallied around and came out to get. From what I can tell only 56% of the population got it between 1962-1965. I get that it's frustrating, but it's like screaming into a mirror at this point. The 15% that haven't gotten vaccinated aren't going to change their mind now and in reality they are all probably a few months away from being dead or having protection against it via natural immunity. At this point we're better off yelling at vaccinated people that eat at McDonald's and don't exercise than we are at trying to convince the 15% that they should go get the jab.

Health care system is overwhelmed and as a result:
- People are dying or have other adverse outcomes due to delayed "optional" treatment (elective surgeries)
- We're still losing more health care professionals from the profession than we can deal with/replace due to burnout, stress
- Society will be paying the increased cost of health care for COVID hospitalizations/long-term COVID for a long time

Yelling at the unvaccinated (*cough*, such as you with your kids.......) may not be productive, but when it's all you feel you've got to address the above, it's probably going to continue.

One of my kids just got eligible a few months ago and sorry I didn't trust a study with an N of 1000 kids. I wanted to wait for more data. The other isn't eligible, but I'm glad you feel (*cough) morally superior to me dude.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 07:47:00 AM by mizzourah2006 »

jrhampt

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #905 on: January 31, 2022, 07:51:53 AM »
I am saying that natural immunity is neither reliable nor durable.  This is why the CDC/doctors/immunologists universally recommend that anyone who has had a prior covid infection also get vaccinated. 

frugalnacho

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #906 on: January 31, 2022, 07:52:39 AM »
Why is it so binary?  I feel like you're arguing that you don't need air bags because you have a seat belt and seat belts already substantially lower your risk. You can do both things, and also try to not drive recklessly.

mizzourah2006

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #907 on: January 31, 2022, 07:54:19 AM »
Why is it so binary?  I feel like you're arguing that you don't need air bags because you have a seat belt and seat belts already substantially lower your risk. You can do both things, and also try to not drive recklessly.

I'm not. I'm saying that for the vulnerable populations that chose not to get vaccinated most of them will have some protection. I'm not suggesting that an unvaccinated person that got Omicron shouldn't still get vaccinated. But if we work under the presumption that they won't given they haven't so far it's not as if they aren't more protected than they were before. That's literally all I'm saying.

If you want to keep screaming into social media at these unvaccinated 50 year olds that you don't know hoping maybe they'll see you calling them worthless pieces of sh*t and decide you are right and they should go get vaccinated tomorrow by all means continue to do so.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 07:57:02 AM by mizzourah2006 »

frugalnacho

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #908 on: January 31, 2022, 08:05:57 AM »
Why is it so binary?  I feel like you're arguing that you don't need air bags because you have a seat belt and seat belts already substantially lower your risk. You can do both things, and also try to not drive recklessly.

I'm not. I'm saying that for the vulnerable populations that chose not to get vaccinated most of them will have some protection. I'm not suggesting that an unvaccinated person that got Omicron shouldn't still get vaccinated. But if we work under the presumption that they won't given they haven't so far it's not as if they aren't more protected than they were before. That's literally all I'm saying.

If you want to keep screaming into social media at these unvaccinated 50 year olds that you don't know hoping maybe they'll see you calling them worthless pieces of sh*t and decide you are right and they should go get vaccinated tomorrow by all means continue to do so.

Technically I'm a one dose person. I got one dose in Oklahoma and one in Arkansas. Thus in both states I'm considered partially vaccinated. My kids will likely never get vaccinated, but they already had and recovered from Omicron. The data suggests that even getting one dose provides robust protection against severe disease. It may not provide as much protection against contracting the virus (although that doesn't seem to matter with Omicron), but most of the benefit against severe sickness is simply having your immune system primed for the virus and one dose does that.

mizzourah2006

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #909 on: January 31, 2022, 08:11:50 AM »
Why is it so binary?  I feel like you're arguing that you don't need air bags because you have a seat belt and seat belts already substantially lower your risk. You can do both things, and also try to not drive recklessly.

I'm not. I'm saying that for the vulnerable populations that chose not to get vaccinated most of them will have some protection. I'm not suggesting that an unvaccinated person that got Omicron shouldn't still get vaccinated. But if we work under the presumption that they won't given they haven't so far it's not as if they aren't more protected than they were before. That's literally all I'm saying.

If you want to keep screaming into social media at these unvaccinated 50 year olds that you don't know hoping maybe they'll see you calling them worthless pieces of sh*t and decide you are right and they should go get vaccinated tomorrow by all means continue to do so.

Technically I'm a one dose person. I got one dose in Oklahoma and one in Arkansas. Thus in both states I'm considered partially vaccinated. My kids will likely never get vaccinated, but they already had and recovered from Omicron. The data suggests that even getting one dose provides robust protection against severe disease. It may not provide as much protection against contracting the virus (although that doesn't seem to matter with Omicron), but most of the benefit against severe sickness is simply having your immune system primed for the virus and one dose does that.

Like I said earlier, I may change my mind, but even if I do I'll follow the European model of kids only getting one dose, so they'll never be considered "fully" vaccinated. I think we can have differing strategies depending on probability of severe disease, but I guess we live in a one size fits all society where healthy 6 year olds and bed-ridden 60 year olds should be treated identically. Should my daughter get a colonoscopy too? After all it's recommended for most 50 year olds.

If my 65 year old mother had had Omicron and recovered and wasn't vaccinated I would strongly urge her to get the vaccine. I just don't see it as a one size fits all disease, so I don't believe in a one size fits all strategy. If there is evidence that a future version of the vaccine stops all probability of contracting it, I would strongly reconsider my current stance though.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 08:15:53 AM by mizzourah2006 »

Arbitrage

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #910 on: January 31, 2022, 08:15:58 AM »
From what I have gleaned on infection-based versus vaccine-based (MRNA) immunity:

During the pre-delta period, vaccine-based immunity was far superior.
During the delta wave, infection-based immunity was superior.
During the initial part of the omicron wave, infection-based immunity was similar to a 2-shot regimen.  A 3-shot regimen was significantly better than infection.

Vaccine + infection was always better.  If you get infected, you should still go get vaccinated for good protection against future variants.

I believe that in the studies I was looking at, the metrics were against symptomatic infection.  Severity remains another important variable.

Remains TBD what sort of immunity omicron-based infections will give.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 09:00:04 AM by Arbitrage »

GuitarStv

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #911 on: January 31, 2022, 08:36:54 AM »
Why is it so binary?  I feel like you're arguing that you don't need air bags because you have a seat belt and seat belts already substantially lower your risk. You can do both things, and also try to not drive recklessly.

I'm not. I'm saying that for the vulnerable populations that chose not to get vaccinated most of them will have some protection. I'm not suggesting that an unvaccinated person that got Omicron shouldn't still get vaccinated. But if we work under the presumption that they won't given they haven't so far it's not as if they aren't more protected than they were before. That's literally all I'm saying.

If you want to keep screaming into social media at these unvaccinated 50 year olds that you don't know hoping maybe they'll see you calling them worthless pieces of sh*t and decide you are right and they should go get vaccinated tomorrow by all means continue to do so.

Technically I'm a one dose person. I got one dose in Oklahoma and one in Arkansas. Thus in both states I'm considered partially vaccinated. My kids will likely never get vaccinated, but they already had and recovered from Omicron. The data suggests that even getting one dose provides robust protection against severe disease. It may not provide as much protection against contracting the virus (although that doesn't seem to matter with Omicron), but most of the benefit against severe sickness is simply having your immune system primed for the virus and one dose does that.

Like I said earlier, I may change my mind, but even if I do I'll follow the European model of kids only getting one dose, so they'll never be considered "fully" vaccinated. I think we can have differing strategies depending on probability of severe disease, but I guess we live in a one size fits all society where healthy 6 year olds and bed-ridden 60 year olds should be treated identically. Should my daughter get a colonoscopy too? After all it's recommended for most 50 year olds.

If my 65 year old mother had had Omicron and recovered and wasn't vaccinated I would strongly urge her to get the vaccine. I just don't see it as a one size fits all disease, so I don't believe in a one size fits all strategy. If there is evidence that a future version of the vaccine stops all probability of contracting it, I would strongly reconsider my current stance though.

Has anyone been able to find a mortality rate for the Pfizer vaccine in children?  I've been looking for one, and am frustrated by not being able to find any solid numbers.

We know that myocarditis occurs about 70 in 1,000,000 after the vaccine is given to boys 16/17 (and is lower in all other children age groups).  We also know that most cases of myocarditis resolve quickly.  I'd still like to be able to see the numbers though.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #912 on: January 31, 2022, 09:29:54 AM »


Holy cow.  If that’s even remotely accurate that’s a 15% increase in death for two straight years.

Well Covid-19 deaths in 2021 were about 440,000 that's 1,205 per day right there. What's remarkable is how death rates spike in so many other things,
Suicide, murders, and drug overdose were all up 10-25% in the last couple of years. I guess it is understandable people react to stress.  But what's crazy is things that you'd think would go down, in some cases went up. Take traffic fatalities they have been on a long slow decline for decades, despite more cars, and more miles. In 2019 there was about 34,000 deads, in 2021 they topped 42,000. This doesn't make sense, lots of people still worked from home, travel, tourism while increased from 2020, were still sharply below 2019 levels.  Perhaps more door dash delivery or something resulted in more death,or more road rage??

I read someone who posited road deaths went up because traffic went down. Seems counterintuitive until you consider that speed is the major factor in how deadly a crash is. Crash in slow-moving traffic and you're probably not going to get hurt too badly. Crash when there's plenty of space to drive the speed limit (or higher) and you'll have a much worse time of it.

Jon Bon

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #913 on: January 31, 2022, 11:31:45 AM »
From what I have gleaned on infection-based versus vaccine-based (MRNA) immunity:

During the pre-delta period, vaccine-based immunity was far superior.
During the delta wave, infection-based immunity was superior.
During the initial part of the omicron wave, infection-based immunity was similar to a 2-shot regimen.  A 3-shot regimen was significantly better than infection.

Vaccine + infection was always better.  If you get infected, you should still go get vaccinated for good protection against future variants.

I believe that in the studies I was looking at, the metrics were against symptomatic infection.  Severity remains another important variable.

Remains TBD what sort of immunity omicron-based infections will give.

Thanks for putting this in a way I can actually read and understand. Versus any data put out by our government institutions....

Captain FIRE

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #914 on: January 31, 2022, 11:41:57 AM »
I guess my point was more along the lines of we've been overwhelmingly successful. 85%+ of those 30+ have had at least one dose of the vaccine. People keep pointing to the Polio vaccine as a vaccine that Americans rallied around and came out to get. From what I can tell only 56% of the population got it between 1962-1965. I get that it's frustrating, but it's like screaming into a mirror at this point. The 15% that haven't gotten vaccinated aren't going to change their mind now and in reality they are all probably a few months away from being dead or having protection against it via natural immunity. At this point we're better off yelling at vaccinated people that eat at McDonald's and don't exercise than we are at trying to convince the 15% that they should go get the jab.

Health care system is overwhelmed and as a result:
- People are dying or have other adverse outcomes due to delayed "optional" treatment (elective surgeries)
- We're still losing more health care professionals from the profession than we can deal with/replace due to burnout, stress
- Society will be paying the increased cost of health care for COVID hospitalizations/long-term COVID for a long time

Yelling at the unvaccinated (*cough*, such as you with your kids.......) may not be productive, but when it's all you feel you've got to address the above, it's probably going to continue.

One of my kids just got eligible a few months ago and sorry I didn't trust a study with an N of 1000 kids. I wanted to wait for more data. The other isn't eligible, but I'm glad you feel (*cough) morally superior to me dude.

My point was that sometimes we see "other people" as doing something and don't recognize when we might fit into that category ourselves.  The way you discuss it in this thread, it was not clear to me that you recognized you had a hand in contributing to the unvaccinated category in choosing not to get your eligible child vaccinated (and have made statements that indicate you will not fully vaccinate them), for whatever reason. 

mizzourah2006

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #915 on: January 31, 2022, 01:10:07 PM »
I guess my point was more along the lines of we've been overwhelmingly successful. 85%+ of those 30+ have had at least one dose of the vaccine. People keep pointing to the Polio vaccine as a vaccine that Americans rallied around and came out to get. From what I can tell only 56% of the population got it between 1962-1965. I get that it's frustrating, but it's like screaming into a mirror at this point. The 15% that haven't gotten vaccinated aren't going to change their mind now and in reality they are all probably a few months away from being dead or having protection against it via natural immunity. At this point we're better off yelling at vaccinated people that eat at McDonald's and don't exercise than we are at trying to convince the 15% that they should go get the jab.

Health care system is overwhelmed and as a result:
- People are dying or have other adverse outcomes due to delayed "optional" treatment (elective surgeries)
- We're still losing more health care professionals from the profession than we can deal with/replace due to burnout, stress
- Society will be paying the increased cost of health care for COVID hospitalizations/long-term COVID for a long time

Yelling at the unvaccinated (*cough*, such as you with your kids.......) may not be productive, but when it's all you feel you've got to address the above, it's probably going to continue.

One of my kids just got eligible a few months ago and sorry I didn't trust a study with an N of 1000 kids. I wanted to wait for more data. The other isn't eligible, but I'm glad you feel (*cough) morally superior to me dude.

My point was that sometimes we see "other people" as doing something and don't recognize when we might fit into that category ourselves.  The way you discuss it in this thread, it was not clear to me that you recognized you had a hand in contributing to the unvaccinated category in choosing not to get your eligible child vaccinated (and have made statements that indicate you will not fully vaccinate them), for whatever reason.

I'm a statistician by education and training, so I can't help but follow the data. I'm sorry if you don't like that answer. The data overwhelmingly supported myself and my wife to get vaccinated, so I did so. The data is much more nuanced for young children. My 6 year old daughter is physically a lot closer to my 4 year old son (she weighs 45 pounds) than to an 11 year old boy. How many 5 (just turned 6) year old girls do you think were in Pfizer's 1,000 person sample?

Many European countries have looked at the data and found that for kids one dose provides 95%+ of the benefit with limited side effects, I've looked at the same data and come to a similar conclusion. Many doctors are agreeing that it's much more nuanced in young children. Here is a doctor I've followed closely discussing the FDA's EAU board discussion during the meeting to vote to approve the vaccine for 5-11 year olds. At ~ 2:40 he even says the FDA had apprehension about suggesting that healthy kids 5-11 that have cleared the virus should get vaccinated. So even the FDA's advisory board thinks it's likely to provide limited benefit to her, but they had to vote on a strategy for all 5-11 year olds, not the 4 separate groups they discussed the benefit/risk profile for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Od4LJCbBhw

Most people that are getting myocarditis are getting it from the second dose. The probability of an unvaccinated child needing hospitalization from covid with delta was ~ 50 per 100k (it seems we can assume it is even lower with omicron). Now if you further stratify that to healthy children that number is probably in the order of 5 per 100k. There was a lot of evidence of myocarditis issues in 12-18 year olds, the study on 5-11 year olds included 1,000 kids. Sorry, if that didn't leave me with a lot of confidence in its safety profile at the time. Now some data is coming out and it appears to be safer in 5-11 than it was in 12-18, but given she now has recovered from it the probability of severe disease for her is probably in the order of 1 in 1 million+ at this point. Given there is still some risk of adverse reactions from the vaccine and at the very least it tends to make people sick for a day or two as they recover from the vaccine it just doesn't seem worth the effort at this point. I reserve the right to change my mind as new information becomes available though, but as of right now the vaccine provides extremely limited value to her, especially after what we are seeing with Omicron and there is plenty of evidence from prior strains that infection from the same strain twice is very unlikely.

All of this is different for an overweight 60 year old. The fact that you can't wrap your mind around this is actually pretty interesting to me.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 01:12:35 PM by mizzourah2006 »

nereo

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #916 on: January 31, 2022, 01:30:15 PM »

Most people that are getting myocarditis are getting it from the second dose. The probability of an unvaccinated child needing hospitalization from covid with delta was ~ 50 per 100k (it seems we can assume it is even lower with omicron). Now if you further stratify that to healthy children that number is probably in the order of 5 per 100k. There was a lot of evidence of myocarditis issues in 12-18 year olds, the study on 5-11 year olds included 1,000 kids. Sorry, if that didn't leave me with a lot of confidence in its safety profile at the time. Now some data is coming out and it appears to be safer in 5-11 than it was in 12-18, but given she now has recovered from it the probability of severe disease for her is probably in the order of 1 in 1 million+ at this point. Given there is still some risk of adverse reactions from the vaccine and at the very least it tends to make people sick for a day or two as they recover from the vaccine it just doesn't seem worth the effort at this point. I reserve the right to change my mind as new information becomes available though, but as of right now the vaccine provides extremely limited value to her, especially after what we are seeing with Omicron and there is plenty of evidence from prior strains that infection from the same strain twice is very unlikely.

All of this is different for an overweight 60 year old. The fact that you can't wrap your mind around this is actually pretty interesting to me.

you say that you are simply following the data, but in your own writings it seems like you are making a great number of assumptions that appear tailored towards concluding you should not vaccinate your children.

As another parent of young children I also find it interesting that you talk only about the potential impact on your children's health and their likeliness to survive that, and never about the potential impact they may have on others.

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #917 on: January 31, 2022, 01:34:58 PM »
As another parent of young children I also find it interesting that you talk only about the potential impact on your children's health and their likeliness to survive that, and never about the potential impact they may have on others.

Same could be said about any parent who buys their 16-year-old the biggest SUV possible so that when they get in a crash it's the other guy who gets hurt. Not saying it's right, but it is sort of how we're wired to look at things as parents.

mizzourah2006

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #918 on: January 31, 2022, 01:37:13 PM »

Most people that are getting myocarditis are getting it from the second dose. The probability of an unvaccinated child needing hospitalization from covid with delta was ~ 50 per 100k (it seems we can assume it is even lower with omicron). Now if you further stratify that to healthy children that number is probably in the order of 5 per 100k. There was a lot of evidence of myocarditis issues in 12-18 year olds, the study on 5-11 year olds included 1,000 kids. Sorry, if that didn't leave me with a lot of confidence in its safety profile at the time. Now some data is coming out and it appears to be safer in 5-11 than it was in 12-18, but given she now has recovered from it the probability of severe disease for her is probably in the order of 1 in 1 million+ at this point. Given there is still some risk of adverse reactions from the vaccine and at the very least it tends to make people sick for a day or two as they recover from the vaccine it just doesn't seem worth the effort at this point. I reserve the right to change my mind as new information becomes available though, but as of right now the vaccine provides extremely limited value to her, especially after what we are seeing with Omicron and there is plenty of evidence from prior strains that infection from the same strain twice is very unlikely.

All of this is different for an overweight 60 year old. The fact that you can't wrap your mind around this is actually pretty interesting to me.

you say that you are simply following the data, but in your own writings it seems like you are making a great number of assumptions that appear tailored towards concluding you should not vaccinate your children.

As another parent of young children I also find it interesting that you talk only about the potential impact on your children's health and their likeliness to survive that, and never about the potential impact they may have on others.

Notice how I said "Omicron has changed everything" several times. I wasn't against her getting vaccinated before Omicron, I was just waiting for more safety data to come in. When we still believed that being vaccinated severely reduced your chances of contracting and spreading covid I wasn't against it. Now all of the data says that because she has cleared the virus she has the same protection (if not more) from re-infection as a vaccinated person. If she's as unlikely to get reinfected as a vaccinated person, how is she more of a risk than a vaccinated person to others? Also, literally every adult I know is vaccinated and almost all of them have gotten (and presumably) spread covid. So if we really cared about others...shouldn't we all just lock ourselves in our homes regardless of vaccination status?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 01:40:33 PM by mizzourah2006 »

Captain FIRE

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #919 on: January 31, 2022, 01:42:47 PM »
All of this is different for an overweight 60 year old. The fact that you can't wrap your mind around this is actually pretty interesting to me.

I didn't get into your reasons for choosing to skip vaccination because that's not really relevant to my point.  I fully understand some personally benefit more from the vaccine than others.  (Unlike you, I also place weight on the value of vaccination for the common good, such as not getting COVID and breeding new variants, or overwhelming the hospitals.)

My point was simply that:
My point was that sometimes we see "other people" as doing something and don't recognize when we might fit into that category ourselves.  The way you discuss it in this thread, it was not clear to me that you recognized you had a hand in contributing to the unvaccinated category in choosing not to get your eligible child vaccinated (and have made statements that indicate you will not fully vaccinate them), for whatever reason. 

In any event, I've tried making this point twice and will now stop beating a dead horse. 

Villanelle

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #920 on: January 31, 2022, 02:11:42 PM »
I guess my point was more along the lines of we've been overwhelmingly successful. 85%+ of those 30+ have had at least one dose of the vaccine. People keep pointing to the Polio vaccine as a vaccine that Americans rallied around and came out to get. From what I can tell only 56% of the population got it between 1962-1965. I get that it's frustrating, but it's like screaming into a mirror at this point. The 15% that haven't gotten vaccinated aren't going to change their mind now and in reality they are all probably a few months away from being dead or having protection against it via natural immunity. At this point we're better off yelling at vaccinated people that eat at McDonald's and don't exercise than we are at trying to convince the 15% that they should go get the jab.

Health care system is overwhelmed and as a result:
- People are dying or have other adverse outcomes due to delayed "optional" treatment (elective surgeries)
- We're still losing more health care professionals from the profession than we can deal with/replace due to burnout, stress
- Society will be paying the increased cost of health care for COVID hospitalizations/long-term COVID for a long time

Yelling at the unvaccinated (*cough*, such as you with your kids.......) may not be productive, but when it's all you feel you've got to address the above, it's probably going to continue.

One of my kids just got eligible a few months ago and sorry I didn't trust a study with an N of 1000 kids. I wanted to wait for more data. The other isn't eligible, but I'm glad you feel (*cough) morally superior to me dude.

My point was that sometimes we see "other people" as doing something and don't recognize when we might fit into that category ourselves.  The way you discuss it in this thread, it was not clear to me that you recognized you had a hand in contributing to the unvaccinated category in choosing not to get your eligible child vaccinated (and have made statements that indicate you will not fully vaccinate them), for whatever reason.

I'm a statistician by education and training, so I can't help but follow the data. I'm sorry if you don't like that answer. The data overwhelmingly supported myself and my wife to get vaccinated, so I did so. The data is much more nuanced for young children. My 6 year old daughter is physically a lot closer to my 4 year old son (she weighs 45 pounds) than to an 11 year old boy. How many 5 (just turned 6) year old girls do you think were in Pfizer's 1,000 person sample?

Many European countries have looked at the data and found that for kids one dose provides 95%+ of the benefit with limited side effects, I've looked at the same data and come to a similar conclusion. Many doctors are agreeing that it's much more nuanced in young children. Here is a doctor I've followed closely discussing the FDA's EAU board discussion during the meeting to vote to approve the vaccine for 5-11 year olds. At ~ 2:40 he even says the FDA had apprehension about suggesting that healthy kids 5-11 that have cleared the virus should get vaccinated. So even the FDA's advisory board thinks it's likely to provide limited benefit to her, but they had to vote on a strategy for all 5-11 year olds, not the 4 separate groups they discussed the benefit/risk profile for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Od4LJCbBhw

Most people that are getting myocarditis are getting it from the second dose. The probability of an unvaccinated child needing hospitalization from covid with delta was ~ 50 per 100k (it seems we can assume it is even lower with omicron). Now if you further stratify that to healthy children that number is probably in the order of 5 per 100k. There was a lot of evidence of myocarditis issues in 12-18 year olds, the study on 5-11 year olds included 1,000 kids. Sorry, if that didn't leave me with a lot of confidence in its safety profile at the time. Now some data is coming out and it appears to be safer in 5-11 than it was in 12-18, but given she now has recovered from it the probability of severe disease for her is probably in the order of 1 in 1 million+ at this point. Given there is still some risk of adverse reactions from the vaccine and at the very least it tends to make people sick for a day or two as they recover from the vaccine it just doesn't seem worth the effort at this point. I reserve the right to change my mind as new information becomes available though, but as of right now the vaccine provides extremely limited value to her, especially after what we are seeing with Omicron and there is plenty of evidence from prior strains that infection from the same strain twice is very unlikely.

All of this is different for an overweight 60 year old. The fact that you can't wrap your mind around this is actually pretty interesting to me.

Genuinely curious... at what point does a girl have enough in common with an 11yo boy to make the full vaccination protocol feel like the right choice to you?  If your girl was 8 would that be close enough to an 11 yo boy?  11?  12? 

And/or if you get a single child's dose for her soon-ish?  Is there some point at which you'd get the second dose (assuming the strain, situation, and recommendations don't change, which is a big assumption, of course). 

What if her school requires full vaccination (presumably once it is no longer under an EUA)? 

(If this seems overly probing or hostile, it definitely isn't.  I'm truly trying to understand different views on this vax for kids.)

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #921 on: January 31, 2022, 02:34:04 PM »
My kids are 3 to 13, none of them have been vaccinated so far. There's a decent chance they've all already caught the Omicron variant as we've had a few colds run through the family in the last several months. Some sporadic at home testing all showed negative but we were not testing all 6 kids multiple times so it's very possible we had a few false negatives and/or bad samples (try getting a decent nasal swab on a 3-year-old).

Multiple kids and teachers at their school had it recently, and my wife spent the day taking care of her sister with Omicron and never got a positive test (both were vaccinated as am I). Shortly after that was when a cold ran through the family and it was probably Omicron.

There is a very small known risk from COVID vs a very small unknown risk from a vaccine. As more data comes out, we might change our minds but for now they likely have natural immunity and the incremental benefit from a vaccine is not worth the risk.

mizzourah2006

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #922 on: January 31, 2022, 02:48:26 PM »

Genuinely curious... at what point does a girl have enough in common with an 11yo boy to make the full vaccination protocol feel like the right choice to you?  If your girl was 8 would that be close enough to an 11 yo boy?  11?  12? 

And/or if you get a single child's dose for her soon-ish?  Is there some point at which you'd get the second dose (assuming the strain, situation, and recommendations don't change, which is a big assumption, of course). 

What if her school requires full vaccination (presumably once it is no longer under an EUA)? 

(If this seems overly probing or hostile, it definitely isn't.  I'm truly trying to understand different views on this vax for kids.)

I think these are all very reasonable questions. I'll give you my current thoughts, but a bit to your point this is an ever moving target and everything is subject to change based off of the efficacy of new versions of the vaccines vs. any current strain, etc. I'm simply relaying my thoughts as a parent of two children that have cleared the Omicron variant with today's landscape.

Genuinely curious... at what point does a girl have enough in common with an 11yo boy to make the full vaccination protocol feel like the right choice to you?  If your girl was 8 would that be close enough to an 11 yo boy?  11?  12? 

I honestly haven't given much thought to this, but yeah I'd say an 8 or 9 year old is closer physically to a 12 year old than a 4 year old. In my personal instance my daughter weighs like 5 pounds more than my 4 year old. Probably about half the size of a typical 11 year old boy.

And/or if you get a single child's dose for her soon-ish?  Is there some point at which you'd get the second dose (assuming the strain, situation, and recommendations don't change, which is a big assumption, of course). 

Of course I'd consider a second dose if the data supported it. I don't know why we are all so certain the CDC and the FDA are 100% right and that The EU countries only recommending one in many instances for children are wrong. I'd be curious to hear other's thoughts on why these countries presumably don't care about kids and spreading the virus.

What if her school requires full vaccination (presumably once it is no longer under an EUA)? 

If it comes to that I'd do it. I'm not actively against her getting vaccinated, I'm just not in a huge hurry at this point. Everything keeps changing. I have a feeling they'll be telling us all we need to get a 4th dose when the "Omicron" version of the vaccine is approved. So, let's say I get her vaccinated next week. Then they'd be recommending the new one once it's available. Why not just wait for the new one if it provides evidence that it's useful? We keep pretending we know the safety profile on boosting ourselves to oblivion. If they recommend Omicron booster in March for most people that's 4 doses in less than 12 months. For a small minority that's 5.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 02:50:17 PM by mizzourah2006 »

Plina

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #923 on: January 31, 2022, 02:49:07 PM »


Holy cow.  If that’s even remotely accurate that’s a 15% increase in death for two straight years.

Well Covid-19 deaths in 2021 were about 440,000 that's 1,205 per day right there. What's remarkable is how death rates spike in so many other things,
Suicide, murders, and drug overdose were all up 10-25% in the last couple of years. I guess it is understandable people react to stress.  But what's crazy is things that you'd think would go down, in some cases went up. Take traffic fatalities they have been on a long slow decline for decades, despite more cars, and more miles. In 2019 there was about 34,000 deads, in 2021 they topped 42,000. This doesn't make sense, lots of people still worked from home, travel, tourism while increased from 2020, were still sharply below 2019 levels.  Perhaps more door dash delivery or something resulted in more death,or more road rage??

I read someone who posited road deaths went up because traffic went down. Seems counterintuitive until you consider that speed is the major factor in how deadly a crash is. Crash in slow-moving traffic and you're probably not going to get hurt too badly. Crash when there's plenty of space to drive the speed limit (or higher) and you'll have a much worse time of it.

A reason could be that the hospitals were full of covid patients clogging up the system. Good luck getting the normal treatment that you would have gotten precovid.

Captain FIRE

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #924 on: January 31, 2022, 02:50:25 PM »
For those not vaccinating based on having felt that you/your kids have already been infected with COVID-19, have you considered getting the test done to confirm your assumption?  If you would share why or why not, that would be interesting to know.

clifp

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #925 on: January 31, 2022, 02:56:31 PM »

you say that you are simply following the data, but in your own writings it seems like you are making a great number of assumptions that appear tailored towards concluding you should not vaccinate your children.

As another parent of young children I also find it interesting that you talk only about the potential impact on your children's health and their likeliness to survive that, and never about the potential impact they may have on others.

I think mizzourah is more right than wrong.  We do know that children, are far less likely to get Covid, and have mild symptoms. We also know that young children are far less likely to transmit Covid. It is one of the reasons, it is good to keep schools open. Study after study has shown that schools aren't a major source of Covid transmission.

We know for ADULTs being vaccinated reduces your chances of getting Covid, and reduces the amount of time you are infectious. (I've not seen a post Omicron study on this)  Your ASSUMPTION is the same thing will be true for young children. But to be clear, neither you, I nor Mizzourah know if this is true or not.  It is seems logical at one level, but given how different children and adults react it is likely not to be a good assumption.  We probably won't have a definitive answer to "do vaccinate young children help prevent the spread of Covid" for some time.

I believe that reason vaccination for kids hasn't been approved very quickly, is because it is a more nuanced question, the risk and reward aren't as clear cut as they are for adults.

Speaking of risks

"Given there is still some risk of adverse reactions from the vaccine and at the very least it tends to make people sick for a day or two as they recover from the vaccine it just doesn't seem worth the effort at this point."

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-vaccine-76-of-reported-side-effects-may-be-due-to-nocebo-effect
TL:DR 76% of Covid vaccination reported side effects are Placebo/Nocebo effects.

So question for Mizzourah if the risks are lower would that make you more likely to get your kids vaccinated?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 02:58:44 PM by clifp »

HPstache

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #926 on: January 31, 2022, 03:16:31 PM »
For those not vaccinating based on having felt that you/your kids have already been infected with COVID-19, have you considered getting the test done to confirm your assumption?  If you would share why or why not, that would be interesting to know.

Are you saying an antibody test of sorts?  Or do you mean a quick test or PCR test to confirm at that time?  The problem with the latter is that it's actually hard to get a positive test sometimes, even though it's obvious the child / parent has it.  In my family, for instance, I tested positive for Covid (and had all the Omi symptoms to a T) but the other 3 in my household never popped a positive test, even though they all had the obvious symptoms.  This includes multiple quick tests and the 4x official PCR spaced 5 days apart tests needed to return to school.  We took zero precautions besides the basics like coughing into our elbows and washing hands while inside our house for 5 days.

In my opinion probably 90+% of the "just a regular cold" claims that I hear/read about in 2021 are probably Omicron but just did not show up due to the timing of the test or due to false negatives.  I think that some people take a lot of pride in believing that they've never had Covid-19 so they are relieved to believe it was just a regular cold... but let's be real, if you caught what you believe to be just a "regular cold" this year, even if you didn't get the smoking gun test result, it was Covid.

I went off on a tangent here, not all of this was a response to your question.

mizzourah2006

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #927 on: January 31, 2022, 03:26:29 PM »
For those not vaccinating based on having felt that you/your kids have already been infected with COVID-19, have you considered getting the test done to confirm your assumption?  If you would share why or why not, that would be interesting to know.

To add on to others. I did test my 6 year old. She tested positive as did my wife. We only had 2 tests in the house and given that both my son and I had similar symptoms we just assumed we had contracted it. The probability of all 4 people having the same symptoms and only 2 testing positive seems extremely unlikely given how contagious Omicron is. But, yes. I don't know for a fact that either I or my son had it, but I'd place the odds at close to 99%. Of course I could have gone out to the stores and bought some more for complete confirmation. But given how so many people already said I clearly care about no one else but myself that seems like it would have just confirmed people's earlier assumptions. I figured getting confirmation of our positive status wasn't worth the risk of spreading it to others as I purchased the tests.

GuitarStv

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #928 on: January 31, 2022, 03:35:56 PM »
I am vaccinating my son (have his second shot booked in a couple weeks).

I'm also very interested in finding information about deaths in children caused by the Pfizer covid vaccine.  I've read articles indicating that these deaths are out there, but death rate per dose information doesn't appear to be publicly available anywhere.  This seems very strange to me.  Can anyone help me find this data?

trollwithamustache

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #929 on: January 31, 2022, 03:48:42 PM »
One of my kids just got eligible a few months ago and sorry I didn't trust a study with an N of 1000 kids. I wanted to wait for more data. The other isn't eligible, but I'm glad you feel (*cough) morally superior to me dude.

I remember when we got the kids all their normal shots, at least back in the day, you had to wait in the office a half hour and the Nurse would come back, examine the kid (sure, pretty quickly). 

Holy smokes, now you can get them jabbed in a Walgreens and are strongly encouraged but not required to sit there for 15 min.  It is like the system is set up to not find side effects.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #930 on: January 31, 2022, 03:53:52 PM »
For those not vaccinating based on having felt that you/your kids have already been infected with COVID-19, have you considered getting the test done to confirm your assumption?  If you would share why or why not, that would be interesting to know.

My wife just took our 3-year-old to a checkup with his pediatrician, and she asked specifically about the antibody tests for him and the rest of our kids. He didn't recommend it as he didn't think the tests were accurate. We may still look into it but unless there's a compelling reason like needing proof of natural immunity to travel or go to school, we'll just stick with the assumption that all of us were probably exposed to Omicron in the last few months and we can live our lives as normal.

Captain FIRE

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #931 on: January 31, 2022, 04:13:36 PM »
To clarify, I actually meant antibody tests.  By felt, I meant there was no test confirming it at the time, whether of the 1) person themselves or 2) others in the household+the person in question having symptoms.).
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 05:22:53 PM by Captain FIRE »

Jon Bon

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #932 on: January 31, 2022, 04:26:31 PM »
My kids and I tested positive via a antibody test in November of 2020. We really had no idea we had it until after the fact. And let me tell you it was a massive weight off my shoulders. Almost a gift as we went through what I thought would be  this terrible ordeal and it passed me by without my knowledge. So it really took away the unknown of what would happen to the kids going into that winter.

Kids are vaccinated, we figured there was a good chance it would help keep them in school versus if they were exposed and not vaxed they might be sent home type thing.

I am about to stop wearing my mask personally. I mean it "went viral" and it sure looks like it burned itself out. I am thinking maybe in March we might get a bit of a lull.

Oh and vaccinating kids, I have zero problem with you choosing to vaccinate yourself and waiting on your kids. Most parents put their kids health above their own. (including me) So yeah if there is a tiny risk to my kid or some potential possible small hypothetical risk to some senior citizen somewhere. I choose my kid 10/10.

Mainly I just trusted my doc who said get the jab for the little ones.






Zamboni

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #933 on: January 31, 2022, 09:40:08 PM »


Holy cow.  If that’s even remotely accurate that’s a 15% increase in death for two straight years.

Well Covid-19 deaths in 2021 were about 440,000 that's 1,205 per day right there. What's remarkable is how death rates spike in so many other things,
Suicide, murders, and drug overdose were all up 10-25% in the last couple of years. I guess it is understandable people react to stress.  But what's crazy is things that you'd think would go down, in some cases went up. Take traffic fatalities they have been on a long slow decline for decades, despite more cars, and more miles. In 2019 there was about 34,000 deads, in 2021 they topped 42,000. This doesn't make sense, lots of people still worked from home, travel, tourism while increased from 2020, were still sharply below 2019 levels.  Perhaps more door dash delivery or something resulted in more death,or more road rage??

A great many people I knew (particularly retirees) drove a ton more than usual during the pandemic - particularly during our 'lockdowns'.  At one point I pretty much stopped going for bike rides during the week because there was so much more traffic than usual along the quiet country roads that I take.  It seemed like people were looking for something to do, and driving around in a car counts as something I guess.

^Yes to this. Granny Zamboni has spent many days during this pandemic driving around for hours and hours because she is bored. The senior center was closed, so she couldn't play cards with her friends, and she doesn't have the internet or anyone to talk to except on the phone. She's poor and burning up her dollars in gasoline. She drives me nuts.

Also, Plina is onto something as well. In addition to a lot of medical personnel resources going to COVID, in the US we've had a physician shortage for a long time that is getting worse and worse, especially in rural areas. This is because the AMA lobby keeps the number of medical school slots artificially low to keep doctor salaries high.

We are also facing a critical nursing shortage in the US that is exacerbated by people leaving the profession, leaving hospitals for less stressful nursing jobs, and for profit hospitals keeping staffing levels below functional levels. My friend is a nurse manager at a major hospital (Mayo Clinic) and it drives her nuts because she's constantly 17-23% unstaffed in her unit. So basically there are 4 nurses there when previously there would have been 5 . . . all of the time now, by design . . . and they tell her it's fine. They also count brand new nurses in training and orientation sessions as part of her staffing, even though they either aren't on the floor yet or don't know how to do things without another nurse helping them. So really it's worse that 17-23% unstaffed in her unit, because trainees are counted as staff even if they are in an HR benefits meeting all day. Her single hospital in the Mayo Clinic system made a profit of 87 million dollars profit last year.

NY Times recently made an opinion video on that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrDyii0P4DU

And if you really want to depress yourself about it, watch the TV show ER, season 1, episode 19 . . . even once you are in the hospital, the specialist staff you need might be otherwise occupied while you die a completely preventable death with the non-specialists around you calling out for help over and over. There's a reason maternal mortality in the US is so high and continuing to climb. And it's even worse if you're a member of a historically marginalized racial or ethnic group. That's a fact.

Shane

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #934 on: February 01, 2022, 05:37:30 AM »
Like I said earlier, I may change my mind, but even if I do I'll follow the European model of kids only getting one dose, so they'll never be considered "fully" vaccinated. I think we can have differing strategies depending on probability of severe disease, but I guess we live in a one size fits all society where healthy 6 year olds and bed-ridden 60 year olds should be treated identically. Should my daughter get a colonoscopy too? After all it's recommended for most 50 year olds.

If my 65 year old mother had had Omicron and recovered and wasn't vaccinated I would strongly urge her to get the vaccine. I just don't see it as a one size fits all disease, so I don't believe in a one size fits all strategy. If there is evidence that a future version of the vaccine stops all probability of contracting it, I would strongly reconsider my current stance though.

Different strategies for different groups of people, with very different risks levels, makes sense to me.

wageslave23

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #935 on: February 01, 2022, 06:18:34 AM »

Most people that are getting myocarditis are getting it from the second dose. The probability of an unvaccinated child needing hospitalization from covid with delta was ~ 50 per 100k (it seems we can assume it is even lower with omicron). Now if you further stratify that to healthy children that number is probably in the order of 5 per 100k. There was a lot of evidence of myocarditis issues in 12-18 year olds, the study on 5-11 year olds included 1,000 kids. Sorry, if that didn't leave me with a lot of confidence in its safety profile at the time. Now some data is coming out and it appears to be safer in 5-11 than it was in 12-18, but given she now has recovered from it the probability of severe disease for her is probably in the order of 1 in 1 million+ at this point. Given there is still some risk of adverse reactions from the vaccine and at the very least it tends to make people sick for a day or two as they recover from the vaccine it just doesn't seem worth the effort at this point. I reserve the right to change my mind as new information becomes available though, but as of right now the vaccine provides extremely limited value to her, especially after what we are seeing with Omicron and there is plenty of evidence from prior strains that infection from the same strain twice is very unlikely.

All of this is different for an overweight 60 year old. The fact that you can't wrap your mind around this is actually pretty interesting to me.

you say that you are simply following the data, but in your own writings it seems like you are making a great number of assumptions that appear tailored towards concluding you should not vaccinate your children.

As another parent of young children I also find it interesting that you talk only about the potential impact on your children's health and their likeliness to survive that, and never about the potential impact they may have on others.

As a parent, I would trade thousands of other people's lives for the life of my daughter.  Especially when doing nothing results in her being fine.  There is a big difference between adding risk to an otherwise healthy child in order to possibly protect older/immunocompromised people and actively giving a sick child a treatment that would help the child but possibly kill thousands of other people.  The latter would be a much more difficult decision.  But when making decisions regarding my daughter, I will never put her at risk for someone else.  Period.

BeanCounter

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #936 on: February 01, 2022, 06:37:10 AM »
Listened to an NPR story in the car last night that I think changed my view on masks for kids. Pre-vaccination, pre-omicron, I was very much in favor of masking kids in school. But now that everyone has the opportunity to be vaccinated and the cloth masks are questionably effective for preventing the spread of Omicron, I think it's time to take them off. Our kids school stopped mandating them in October and despite that we've only had a 2% infection rate, most of which were asymptomatic cases which originated from a parent in the home testing positive first. It's been two years and I think it's time to stop trying to stop this pandemic on the backs of the kids. It just isn't right anymore.


https://www.npr.org/2022/01/28/1075842341/growing-calls-to-take-masks-off-children-in-school

mizzourah2006

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #937 on: February 01, 2022, 06:49:50 AM »
I just saw a study from the CDC where they surveyed people about whether or not they'd done any physical activity outside of work in the past month (like going for a bike ride, a run, a walk, playing golf, etc.). 26% of people surveyed said no. So we have significantly more adults that have gotten at least one dose of the vaccine than can even be bothered to go for a short walk around their neighborhood once a month and roughly as many adults that are fully vaccinated that can be bothered to do so. This is just to provide context about how effective I think the vaccination effort has been in comparison to something that everyone knows is important to health and is an order of magnitude easier to do.

jrhampt

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #938 on: February 01, 2022, 07:18:35 AM »
I just saw a study from the CDC where they surveyed people about whether or not they'd done any physical activity outside of work in the past month (like going for a bike ride, a run, a walk, playing golf, etc.). 26% of people surveyed said no. So we have significantly more adults that have gotten at least one dose of the vaccine than can even be bothered to go for a short walk around their neighborhood once a month and roughly as many adults that are fully vaccinated that can be bothered to do so. This is just to provide context about how effective I think the vaccination effort has been in comparison to something that everyone knows is important to health and is an order of magnitude easier to do.

Ok, I exercise every day, but I take issue with the fact that doing that is easier than spending ten minutes getting a shot.  Getting vaccinated once is way easier than developing a healthy exercise habit (although once a month...is not really even trying).  And of course these two things should not be mutually exclusive, either.  Exercise is not a substitute for getting vaccinated or vice versa.  You can be very fit and physically active and still get taken out by covid.  But how many people even floss every day, for example?  It's way harder to get people to do something healthy habitually than to do a one-time ten-minute thing.

Captain FIRE

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #939 on: February 01, 2022, 07:25:21 AM »
I just saw a study from the CDC where they surveyed people about whether or not they'd done any physical activity outside of work in the past month (like going for a bike ride, a run, a walk, playing golf, etc.). 26% of people surveyed said no. So we have significantly more adults that have gotten at least one dose of the vaccine than can even be bothered to go for a short walk around their neighborhood once a month and roughly as many adults that are fully vaccinated that can be bothered to do so. This is just to provide context about how effective I think the vaccination effort has been in comparison to something that everyone knows is important to health and is an order of magnitude easier to do.

I think that's a hard thing to draw many conclusions from.  From my perspective - all of my friends (myself included) with kids are absolutely burnt out.  On this thread it's clear that despite a large range of differing opinions about topics ranging from masking kids to quarantining them, everyone is exhausted.  When you are exhausted, it's hard to do extra things like exercising.  Whether clinical depression or just too much expected between work and home, things slip. 

Also - just because someone isn't exercising outside, doesn't mean they aren't exercising.  It's winter here.  Not only only is it cold, but my area had the 4th snowiest January in the time they've been recording it.  That's not particularly conducive to getting outside and exercising.  We live on a pond and we taught my son to skate for the first time on it this month, but then a massive snowstorm came through and made that impossible to continue.  With the snow piles you can't easily run/walk.  etc.

Finally, as @jrhampt notes, a shot is far easier and quicker than exercising.  My 3rd was 5 minutes from my house, near shopping, and I didn't have to wait at all to get it.

mizzourah2006

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #940 on: February 01, 2022, 07:27:46 AM »
I just saw a study from the CDC where they surveyed people about whether or not they'd done any physical activity outside of work in the past month (like going for a bike ride, a run, a walk, playing golf, etc.). 26% of people surveyed said no. So we have significantly more adults that have gotten at least one dose of the vaccine than can even be bothered to go for a short walk around their neighborhood once a month and roughly as many adults that are fully vaccinated that can be bothered to do so. This is just to provide context about how effective I think the vaccination effort has been in comparison to something that everyone knows is important to health and is an order of magnitude easier to do.

Ok, I exercise every day, but I take issue with the fact that doing that is easier than spending ten minutes getting a shot.  Getting vaccinated once is way easier than developing a healthy exercise habit (although once a month...is not really even trying).  And of course these two things should not be mutually exclusive, either.  Exercise is not a substitute for getting vaccinated or vice versa.  You can be very fit and physically active and still get taken out by covid.  But how many people even floss every day, for example?  It's way harder to get people to do something healthy habitually than to do a one-time ten-minute thing.

I completely agree. I'm not suggesting they are a substitute for one another. I'm just saying that in reality most people can't be bothered to do the simplest things for their health, so why would we expect them all to suddenly jump on the vaccine bandwagon. I'd argue going for one 10 minute walk is much easier than identifying a location that is vaccinating people, scheduling an appointment, driving to the appointment, getting the vaccine and waiting 15 minutes. I don't think it's an either or, but I am more using this as a point of reference for a reasonable baseline of people who care even a bit about their health. So more people did get partially vaccinated than can be bothered to go for ONE walk a month. That's a win in my book.

I think that's a hard thing to draw many conclusions from.  From my perspective - all of my friends (myself included) with kids are absolutely burnt out.  On this thread it's clear that despite a large range of differing opinions about topics ranging from masking kids to quarantining them, everyone is exhausted.  When you are exhausted, it's hard to do extra things like exercising.  Whether clinical depression or just too much expected between work and home, things slip. 

Also - just because someone isn't exercising outside, doesn't mean they aren't exercising.  It's winter here.  Not only only is it cold, but my area had the 4th snowiest January in the time they've been recording it.  That's not particularly conducive to getting outside and exercising.  We live on a pond and we taught my son to skate for the first time on it this month, but then a massive snowstorm came through and made that impossible to continue.  With the snow piles you can't easily run/walk.  etc.

Finally, as @jrhampt notes, a shot is far easier and quicker than exercising.  My 3rd was 5 minutes from my house, near shopping, and I didn't have to wait at all to get it.

The rate was highest in the American South, so I don't think snow had much to do with it. Going Ice skating would count as a physical activity.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2022, 07:31:31 AM by mizzourah2006 »

Captain FIRE

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #941 on: February 01, 2022, 07:34:03 AM »
I think that's a hard thing to draw many conclusions from.  From my perspective - all of my friends (myself included) with kids are absolutely burnt out.  On this thread it's clear that despite a large range of differing opinions about topics ranging from masking kids to quarantining them, everyone is exhausted.  When you are exhausted, it's hard to do extra things like exercising.  Whether clinical depression or just too much expected between work and home, things slip. 

Also - just because someone isn't exercising outside, doesn't mean they aren't exercising.  It's winter here.  Not only only is it cold, but my area had the 4th snowiest January in the time they've been recording it.  That's not particularly conducive to getting outside and exercising.  We live on a pond and we taught my son to skate for the first time on it this month, but then a massive snowstorm came through and made that impossible to continue.  With the snow piles you can't easily run/walk.  etc.

Finally, as @jrhampt notes, a shot is far easier and quicker than exercising.  My 3rd was 5 minutes from my house, near shopping, and I didn't have to wait at all to get it.

The rate was highest in the American South, so I don't think snow had much to do with it. Going Ice skating would count as a physical activity.

I agree ice skating is a physical activity (I wasn't trying to demonstrate my activities.  While I don't get out enough, I do not qualify as "none"!).  My point was more that due to the weather, it's one of many activities that have become harder/impossible to do outside right now.  People hibernate in the winter and take exercising inside (or forego it).

mizzourah2006

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #942 on: February 01, 2022, 07:38:49 AM »
exercising inside would still count. It was "outside of work" meaning outside of what you do at work have you done any physical activity in the previous month. So going for a walk on a treadmill or a spin on your peloton would also count.

I get your point, but I don't think that's unique to any specific month. The #s might fluctuate month to month, but I'd be willing to bet if you did that longitudinally you'd always end up between 20-28% of people that are completely physically inactive in any given month. I have trouble even fathoming it honestly, My fitbit said I was physically active for 352 days last year. I don't expect everyone to be similar to me, but come on, is asking for 12 days/year really too much? Similarly, is asking for people to go get a vaccine too much? I guess for some people it really is.

StashingAway

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #943 on: February 01, 2022, 08:49:21 AM »
As a parent, I would trade thousands of other people's lives for the life of my daughter.  Especially when doing nothing results in her being fine.  There is a big difference between adding risk to an otherwise healthy child in order to possibly protect older/immunocompromised people and actively giving a sick child a treatment that would help the child but possibly kill thousands of other people.  The latter would be a much more difficult decision.  But when making decisions regarding my daughter, I will never put her at risk for someone else.  Period.

That black and white, eh?

This is where humans are bad at statistics. First off, almost the entirety side effects of the vaccines are recoverable in young kids (and it's still a toss up between which is worse, covid or vaccines in even the most mildly affected populations). Second off, they are extremely rare- it's hardly a guarantee that your daughter or mine would get sick. It's not like you're guaranteeing it, it's just an extremely small possibility. She is in more danger ever time you put her in a car. I'll grant that there is something to be said for weighting bad outcomes from medical intervention more severely, but the probability that she will be exposed to covid makes even this argument less strong.

I was heistant on the vaccine for myself... until hundreds of thousands of people got it and statistically very few bad outcomes came of it, miraculously lower than could have been expected from any vaccine. Same for the kids- we have test populations at an astronomical scale and we are seeing incredible results. Anything we do will have some risk. Unfortunately some folks are going to just not respond as desired, which happens in medical interventions. Every single thing the medical community does has a chance at a bad outcome, and the Covid vaccienes are one of the safest.

So would you trade thousands of lives for your daughter to have a very small chance at having recoverable bad side effects? In the context of our apathetic society, I can see that there isn't much of a draw to do so, but if we were a tight knit community I'd bet it would have appeal.

Captain FIRE

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #944 on: February 01, 2022, 08:55:01 AM »
exercising inside would still count. It was "outside of work" meaning outside of what you do at work have you done any physical activity in the previous month. So going for a walk on a treadmill or a spin on your peloton would also count.

I get your point, but I don't think that's unique to any specific month. The #s might fluctuate month to month, but I'd be willing to bet if you did that longitudinally you'd always end up between 20-28% of people that are completely physically inactive in any given month. I have trouble even fathoming it honestly, My fitbit said I was physically active for 352 days last year. I don't expect everyone to be similar to me, but come on, is asking for 12 days/year really too much? Similarly, is asking for people to go get a vaccine too much? I guess for some people it really is.

Thanks for clarifying.  I misunderstood your post to be "exercising outside" not "exercising outside of work"

Agree on both of your last points.

Captain FIRE

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #945 on: February 01, 2022, 09:02:58 AM »
As a parent, I would trade thousands of other people's lives for the life of my daughter.  Especially when doing nothing results in her being fine.  There is a big difference between adding risk to an otherwise healthy child in order to possibly protect older/immunocompromised people and actively giving a sick child a treatment that would help the child but possibly kill thousands of other people.  The latter would be a much more difficult decision.  But when making decisions regarding my daughter, I will never put her at risk for someone else.  Period.

That black and white, eh?

This is where humans are bad at statistics. First off, almost the entirety side effects of the vaccines are recoverable in young kids (and it's still a toss up between which is worse, covid or vaccines in even the most mildly affected populations). Second off, they are extremely rare- it's hardly a guarantee that your daughter or mine would get sick. It's not like you're guaranteeing it, it's just an extremely small possibility. She is in more danger ever time you put her in a car. I'll grant that there is something to be said for weighting bad outcomes from medical intervention more severely, but the probability that she will be exposed to covid makes even this argument less strong.

I was heistant on the vaccine for myself... until hundreds of thousands of people got it and statistically very few bad outcomes came of it, miraculously lower than could have been expected from any vaccine. Same for the kids- we have test populations at an astronomical scale and we are seeing incredible results. Anything we do will have some risk. Unfortunately some folks are going to just not respond as desired, which happens in medical interventions. Every single thing the medical community does has a chance at a bad outcome, and the Covid vaccienes are one of the safest.

So would you trade thousands of lives for your daughter to have a very small chance at having recoverable bad side effects? In the context of our apathetic society, I can see that there isn't much of a draw to do so, but if we were a tight knit community I'd bet it would have appeal.

Ugh ugh ugh.  I hate to argue on the opposite side of what I firmly believe is important (get vaccinated!) but the ethicist in me rears it's head to say:

There is widely considered an ethical (and at times legal) distinction between action and inaction.  Standard hypothetical: The trolley will run over five people unless it is turned.  Then it will run over just one person.  Do you turn the trolley wheel?  This plays out in questions such as assisted suicide/active euthanasia/withdrawing caregiving (tube feeding)/never providing the feeding tube in the first place.

While I agree 1000x times on risk of vaccine v. COVID, regrettably the weighting the miniscule bad outcomes from medical intervention (v. larger from inaction) can be significant for some.

simonsez

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #946 on: February 01, 2022, 09:21:21 AM »
As a parent, I would trade thousands of other people's lives for the life of my daughter.  Especially when doing nothing results in her being fine.  There is a big difference between adding risk to an otherwise healthy child in order to possibly protect older/immunocompromised people and actively giving a sick child a treatment that would help the child but possibly kill thousands of other people.  The latter would be a much more difficult decision.  But when making decisions regarding my daughter, I will never put her at risk for someone else.  Period.

That black and white, eh?

This is where humans are bad at statistics. First off, almost the entirety side effects of the vaccines are recoverable in young kids (and it's still a toss up between which is worse, covid or vaccines in even the most mildly affected populations). Second off, they are extremely rare- it's hardly a guarantee that your daughter or mine would get sick. It's not like you're guaranteeing it, it's just an extremely small possibility. She is in more danger ever time you put her in a car. I'll grant that there is something to be said for weighting bad outcomes from medical intervention more severely, but the probability that she will be exposed to covid makes even this argument less strong.

I was heistant on the vaccine for myself... until hundreds of thousands of people got it and statistically very few bad outcomes came of it, miraculously lower than could have been expected from any vaccine. Same for the kids- we have test populations at an astronomical scale and we are seeing incredible results. Anything we do will have some risk. Unfortunately some folks are going to just not respond as desired, which happens in medical interventions. Every single thing the medical community does has a chance at a bad outcome, and the Covid vaccienes are one of the safest.

So would you trade thousands of lives for your daughter to have a very small chance at having recoverable bad side effects? In the context of our apathetic society, I can see that there isn't much of a draw to do so, but if we were a tight knit community I'd bet it would have appeal.

What do you say to those parents?  You thank them for their sacrifice because statistically, society is better off if all kids get vaccinated?  You had a healthy teenager before the vaccine (by all accounts, I didn't see anything that mentioned pre-existing conditions).  That's a tough pill.  It's one thing if an adult makes the decision for themselves but when you're doing it on behalf of someone else who is healthy and the risks to a bad case of covid are already low, I think that's the fear - even if the odds are low from vaccine complications.

-pro vax adult who is glad he doesn't have kids to have to make these types of choices

Edit: URL removed, the way the URL read was potentially misleading
« Last Edit: February 02, 2022, 11:49:56 AM by simonsez »

trollwithamustache

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #947 on: February 01, 2022, 10:13:54 AM »
My kids and I tested positive via a antibody test in November of 2020. We really had no idea we had it until after the fact. And let me tell you it was a massive weight off my shoulders. Almost a gift as we went through what I thought would be  this terrible ordeal and it passed me by without my knowledge. So it really took away the unknown of what would happen to the kids going into that winter.

Kids are vaccinated, we figured there was a good chance it would help keep them in school versus if they were exposed and not vaxed they might be sent home type thing.

I am about to stop wearing my mask personally. I mean it "went viral" and it sure looks like it burned itself out. I am thinking maybe in March we might get a bit of a lull.

Oh and vaccinating kids, I have zero problem with you choosing to vaccinate yourself and waiting on your kids. Most parents put their kids health above their own. (including me) So yeah if there is a tiny risk to my kid or some potential possible small hypothetical risk to some senior citizen somewhere. I choose my kid 10/10.


Do you really have to choose between protecting your kids and protecting grandma? We never went to see grandma with sick kids. She lives across town, so to be fair, rescheduling was easy.

Just before Christmas, My mother in law did a stint in the ER. The youngest  inlaws, (fully vaccinated, so its ok?) went to see her a a sick kid. Whose school was having a RSV outbreak. But again, if everyone was vaccinated against COVID this is OK right?  Most of the family is just shocked and horrified that the hospital charges so much for the ER.

Are we (Society, not you personally JB since You've posted a bunch of reasonable kid-covid statements) overly focusing purely on COVID?

former player

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #948 on: February 01, 2022, 10:45:40 AM »
As a parent, I would trade thousands of other people's lives for the life of my daughter.  Especially when doing nothing results in her being fine.  There is a big difference between adding risk to an otherwise healthy child in order to possibly protect older/immunocompromised people and actively giving a sick child a treatment that would help the child but possibly kill thousands of other people.  The latter would be a much more difficult decision.  But when making decisions regarding my daughter, I will never put her at risk for someone else.  Period.

That black and white, eh?

This is where humans are bad at statistics. First off, almost the entirety side effects of the vaccines are recoverable in young kids (and it's still a toss up between which is worse, covid or vaccines in even the most mildly affected populations). Second off, they are extremely rare- it's hardly a guarantee that your daughter or mine would get sick. It's not like you're guaranteeing it, it's just an extremely small possibility. She is in more danger ever time you put her in a car. I'll grant that there is something to be said for weighting bad outcomes from medical intervention more severely, but the probability that she will be exposed to covid makes even this argument less strong.

I was heistant on the vaccine for myself... until hundreds of thousands of people got it and statistically very few bad outcomes came of it, miraculously lower than could have been expected from any vaccine. Same for the kids- we have test populations at an astronomical scale and we are seeing incredible results. Anything we do will have some risk. Unfortunately some folks are going to just not respond as desired, which happens in medical interventions. Every single thing the medical community does has a chance at a bad outcome, and the Covid vaccienes are one of the safest.

So would you trade thousands of lives for your daughter to have a very small chance at having recoverable bad side effects? In the context of our apathetic society, I can see that there isn't much of a draw to do so, but if we were a tight knit community I'd bet it would have appeal.
https://www.clarkcountytoday.com/news/seventeen-year-old-washington-female-dies-from-heart-attack-weeks-after-receiving-second-pfizer-vaccination/

What do you say to those parents?  You thank them for their sacrifice because statistically, society is better off if all kids get vaccinated?  You had a healthy teenager before the vaccine (by all accounts, I didn't see anything that mentioned pre-existing conditions).  That's a tough pill.  It's one thing if an adult makes the decision for themselves but when you're doing it on behalf of someone else who is healthy and the risks to a bad case of covid are already low, I think that's the fear - even if the odds are low from vaccine complications.

-pro vax adult who is glad he doesn't have kids to have to make these types of choices
I read that link.  A 17 year old girl died after having symptomatic covid in August and five weeks after having covid vaccinations in September.    The risk of death in the year after having covid is elevated, and is higher than the risk of death after vaccination, so there is a good chance that this sad death came from the covid infection not the covid vaccination.  It might also have happened in any case: sudden death from previously undiagnosed heart conditions in teenagers is a known thing.   I don't think in that case jumping to the conclusion that the vaccine was the problem is either true or helpful.

mm1970

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Re: Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"
« Reply #949 on: February 01, 2022, 12:13:14 PM »
Listened to an NPR story in the car last night that I think changed my view on masks for kids. Pre-vaccination, pre-omicron, I was very much in favor of masking kids in school. But now that everyone has the opportunity to be vaccinated and the cloth masks are questionably effective for preventing the spread of Omicron, I think it's time to take them off. Our kids school stopped mandating them in October and despite that we've only had a 2% infection rate, most of which were asymptomatic cases which originated from a parent in the home testing positive first. It's been two years and I think it's time to stop trying to stop this pandemic on the backs of the kids. It just isn't right anymore.


https://www.npr.org/2022/01/28/1075842341/growing-calls-to-take-masks-off-children-in-school
I'm still pro mask in school, because here - well, it's really no big deal.  Nobody seems to care.  Most of the kids have moved from cloth over to KN95 or surgical masks.  They are worn indoors, and outside is optional, but most kids wear them outside too.

My son's teacher just got back last week after being out with COVID.  She's a yeller.  She yells TO the kids, not AT the kids (she's just loud, I guess), so I am very much pro mask.

I think it's funny how the perspectives are different.  In my home town (small, rural, Appalachia-ish), people fight the school boards to get rid of the mask mandates.  I read constantly about the "poor kids".  Well, nobody is masking there - go into any grocery store and you'll see <10% people wearing masks.  (Also, their COVID death rate is almost 3%.)  If the parents refuse to wear masks, OF COURSE they think it's horrible for kids to wear masks.

Where I live in CA, we are under a mask mandate.   We had a brief hiatus last summer, but Delta reared up in August-ish and it came back.  So, everyone is required to wear masks indoors, including at work, and it's been that way mostly for a couple of years now.  There were some rules about private functions if everyone was vaccinated or tested you didn't need them...either way, the kids have been masked up since school started up again almost a year ago.

I just saw a study from the CDC where they surveyed people about whether or not they'd done any physical activity outside of work in the past month (like going for a bike ride, a run, a walk, playing golf, etc.). 26% of people surveyed said no. So we have significantly more adults that have gotten at least one dose of the vaccine than can even be bothered to go for a short walk around their neighborhood once a month and roughly as many adults that are fully vaccinated that can be bothered to do so. This is just to provide context about how effective I think the vaccination effort has been in comparison to something that everyone knows is important to health and is an order of magnitude easier to do.

I read that too, and I wonder if it's bad now or has always been bad.  I can see it though.  Back in the day, when I actually worked at the office, I would at least have a longer walk from the office to the bathroom or water cooler.  I had meetings in the building a block away.  2-3 times a week I'd clear my head with a walk at lunch, then eat my food at my desk.

These days, I work in my bedroom.  The walk to the bathroom is 10 steps, maybe 15.  I don't walk to meetings.  I don't even stand up during meetings.  With kid dropoff and pickup schedules, it's just a lot more work to squeeze in a lunch walk compared to "before times" because there's always something to be done in the house.

(I still exercise every day before work, plus I walk the dog 4 days a week...but it's less than I was getting before COVID.)

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!