Author Topic: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.  (Read 6519 times)

cbgg

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What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« on: November 06, 2013, 12:29:29 AM »
I'm working on a move to the USA and OH MY GOD I am shocked at how convoluted, messy, and un-user-friendly the American income tax system is.  No wonder so many Americans seem to hate their government.

I mean, look at the insane calculations high income earners have to go though to see if they can contribute to a Roth IRA. http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Plan-Participant,-Employee/Amount-of-Roth-IRA-Contributions-That-You-Can-Make-for-2014

Good Lord.  Please tell me that once you're there it isn't really so bad.

msilenus

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2013, 01:19:43 AM »
Oh, don't bother with that stuff.  Just do a back-door Roth conversion.  That means opening up a traditional IRA, then contributing to that, and then rolling it over to a Roth IRA.  Same contribution caps, but no income limits at all!

Easy peasy!  Now that I've rebutted your silly point about our glorious tax code, come on over!

Seriously, it is a mess... but it's arguably a mess that ultimately winds up favoring saving at an individual level --people like us-- a bit more than it should.

cbgg

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2013, 01:34:32 AM »
Oh, don't bother with that stuff.  Just do a back-door Roth conversion.  That means opening up a traditional IRA, then contributing to that, and then rolling it over to a Roth IRA.  Same contribution caps, but no income limits at all!


But there appear to be even stricter limits on your income with a Trad IRA...Hang on...the limit is just on your DEDUCTION with a traditional IRA right?  So you can contribute, don't claim the deduction (if you don't qualify), then roll the Trad IRA into a Roth IRA and ultimately enjoy all the benefits of a Roth IRA during the life of the account?

Complicated, but I think I get where you're going with this.  Tricky tricky bastards.

The more I read about all this the more the loop holes appear endless.  Hopefully once I've got the lay of the land it'll feel more like a fun game tinkering with all the pieces. 


HamhockHammock

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2013, 02:59:31 AM »

But there appear to be even stricter limits on your income with a Trad IRA...Hang on...the limit is just on your DEDUCTION with a traditional IRA right?  So you can contribute, don't claim the deduction (if you don't qualify), then roll the Trad IRA into a Roth IRA and ultimately enjoy all the benefits of a Roth IRA during the life of the account?

Complicated, but I think I get where you're going with this.  Tricky tricky bastards.

The more I read about all this the more the loop holes appear endless.  Hopefully once I've got the lay of the land it'll feel more like a fun game tinkering with all the pieces. 



yes. that's right. the growth, but not the contribution, would be tax advantaged.

Welcome aboard. Glad to have you. We're big on social engineering through tax expenditures here.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 03:06:14 AM by HamhockHammock »

chasesfish

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2013, 04:10:40 AM »
Our former treasury secretary couldn't do his taxes right and almost everyone uses tax software or a paid accountant.  It's a mess

oldtoyota

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2013, 06:32:43 AM »
Our former treasury secretary couldn't do his taxes right and almost everyone uses tax software or a paid accountant.  It's a mess

They make it complicated to keep accountants in business.

Sebastian

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2013, 06:40:23 AM »
Why the heck do you wanna move down there? I'd love to move up there!

Luck better Skill

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2013, 07:25:19 AM »
  Our tax code is a mess.  It seems ethically wrong that you must hire/pay someone to figure out how much tax you must pay. 

meadow lark

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2013, 08:51:36 AM »
I so agree.  I hate that I have to hire someone.  It's just with 2 rentals, and selling a house on a REC this year I am lost!  Last year I actually taught 2 of my friends how to fill out their 1040EZ.

daverobev

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2013, 11:50:39 AM »
Heh, I'll be asking for help doing a 1040NR when it gets to that time.. rental property in the US.. maybe not the best idea in hindsight!

LalsConstant

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2013, 12:06:58 PM »
Technically I am an accountant, but I'm no longer a tax preparer.  I have prepared taxes before, mostly for individuals and small businesses with some trust and fiduciaries.

This isn't in respose to the OP in particular as I don't wish to get into the details of the situation and say something that could mislead him.  His situation takes more care and diligence than I'm able to provide, especially in a forum posting.

That said:

1. They don't make income tax laws ridiculous to keep anyone employed.  They do this nonsense on their own, we're not considered.  The fact it makes my degree worth more is an unfair consequence (one of a handful that's unfair in my favor).

2. For the average person whose only income is their employment, it's really not that hard at all to file income tax in America.  You don't even have to read and follow instructions if you're content to let software to all the thinking for you (and you honestly might as well in this case).

Many people can file on a form called the 1040 EZ that's ridiculously simple.  Now I personally can't use the 1040 EZ form for a number of reasons, but even the long form isn't too hard.

3. In America, do you need a paid preparer or not?

I've seen people who honestly did not strictly need an accountant.  But it was worth getting their time back to them; it's like do you change your oil yourself or have a mechanic do it.

If you've had a significant event where the status of assets is unknown, you may actually need a tax attorney instead.  I can tell you accountants are cheaper.  The best arrangements are when an attorney and an accountant have a working relationship and can refer clients to each other.  The situation where the attorney creates the trust and the accountant does the returns in subsequent years for example is usually the most beneficial for the client.

People who have a trust, do anything like a home office that requires special rules, track depreciation, or have a reasonably complicated entity, etc. generally are better of hiring it done.  I have met some people who are in these situations who do it themselves, relishing it like a hobby, but that's a small handful of INTJ extremists.  Most people would rather be taking a nap or something.

Also you have the situation where you have four partners in a venture.  It's good for the common trust if a (competent) neutral party does the tax returns.

4. Software - it's good in extremely simple situations or situations with only modest complexity.  In aids in preparation and stops mathematical mistakes but it doesn't give you the judgment or knowledge. The problem I have with most software is twofold:

A - It does not educate the user.  I realize part of this is people don't WANT to be educated to some extent.  Fair enough but it still bugs me because the publisher is just trying to keep you dependent on their product.

B - In situations requiring any judgment, interpretation, or common sense it is often not evident where to put the number to the casual user.  I had a case where a woman got an early withdrawal from her 401k three years in a row and Turbotax didn't calculate the penalty correctly because the input for this activity wasn't particularly obvious.  She comes home one day and gets a mailbox full of nasty, nasty form letters...

It was obvious to me what happened once I saw the file and looked at her old returns, glaringly so, but she had no way of knowing that because she didn't have my perspective.  We got her straightened out, she only owed the IRS $520 not the ridiculous amount they were demanding.

It's the GIGO problem.  I went to a Turbotax seminar once and they gave us a false person with a long list of complications to do a tax return for.  I got this fake person a $4500 refund (the answer we were supposed to get), while the next closest person only got to $2700.  Bear in mind this was the same software, same screens same prompts, but because I knew what kinds of things to look for it made all the difference.

Look the software works, it does arithmetic better than I can, but it doesn't understand nuance and it can't read for you.

5.  Just be careful, there's a lot of bad advice out there and I've heard things that just make me cringe because, well they're just so wrong it's sad.  A lot of it comes from the H&R Block, Jackson Hewitt, Liberty Tax type services (though those people do a good job sometimes too, it depends on who is working on your return).  Mistakes happen, but you want someone who is not focused on getting you the biggest return you want someone who cares about accuracy and your overall well being.

There's a certain mercenary attitude out there to aggressively "write off" as much as possible, to promise large returns, etc.  Be extremely wary of any place that makes most of its money making short term loans against income tax refund checks.  Be extremely wary of places that brag about finding deductions other places "missed".  You need good judgment and care on your side not conflicts of interest.

Overall:

I feel unless you're looking at some kind of self employment or other situation where it gets interesting sometimes, most people can navigate the American income tax system.  Employers generally pay most of the actual cost of tax preparation for most individuals by issuing W-2s.

For most of your other income you'll typically get a 1099 that'll do most of the work for you.

That said yes it's ridiculously, ridiculously convoluted.  It gets silly in a hurry, really really silly.  There is so much information, you don't know how silly it is until you start using databases to research past IRS rulings on niche situations...

I am no longer a PTIN holder and haven't done taxes in years, none of this is professional advice.

gimp

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2013, 12:41:33 PM »
Is there any first-world country where the tax system is not a mess?

I agree that things are far too complex, but I am afraid a solution is difficult. What would you do?

- Start from scratch.
- Figure out a few obvious taxes, and figure out which ones you want to implement. Let's go with income, flat tax, and nothing else.
- But now people at the bottom of the pile are getting screwed because $100 might be the difference between eating and not eating. Okay, implement tiers or similar.
- Fine, now let local governments do the same. States, and sometimes counties, and sometimes cities have their own tiers for income taxes.
- How do local governments decide if you owe taxes? If you work there? Live there? What if you have a permanent address there but don't reside there?
- Okay, but do we want to tax people with dependents differently?
- Businesses are taking advantage of the system by paying for their employees' expenses in partial lieu of salary. Businesses need to be taxed. How?
- What about passive vs active income?
- And since we want a fair system, let's consider a thousand more categories...
- And to top it all off, if we realize we can also tax retail sales, wholesale sales, imports and exports, property, blah blah blah blah.......

And so we get a complicated tax system.

I'm not qualified to speak on what's good and bad about the system, but what I would realistically change is the following:

- Identify a small number of tax credits for the individual. Dependents, investment loss, education expenses, for example. Things that apply to just about everyone. Lock all of those things in and stop using the goddamn tax system to punish or reward behaviors! Write actual laws that specifically tax or subsidize certain behaviors instead of putting it in as credits and blah blah blah. We are taxed on retail purchases, that's a direct and obvious tax, and doesn't make you scratch your head at the end of the year.
- Ditto for companies. Standard tax rates, a few obvious credits, and the rest as specific, explicit, taxes and subsidies.
- I think tiers are stupid and should be replaced with a smooth function. Nobody uses an abacus to determine their taxes with tiers - we all use calculators and software - and it's no more difficult to calculate a smooth function than a jagged one.
- The IRS has all the information they need, for 99% of people, to simply send them a filled out tax form ready for approval and signing. This is an acknowledged fact. I believe it's kept purposefully scary and difficult to make people dread taxes more (and I wouldn't be surprised if it helps sell software.)

So those four changes. The latter two are fairly easy. The first two (which are really the same) are far more difficult but would bring some honesty to the system.

acroy

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2013, 01:05:04 PM »
The tax code is messy, but you can work the system

Someone on the forum mentioned it's 'like a video game - learn what levers to pull to get the best outcome'

It's messy but flexible and lots of loopholes.

IMHO, the biggest problem is the system taxes production (income) instead of consumption. Wipe income tax completely, quit taxing production, start a blanket national consumption (sales) tax, and watch frugality, production, savings (MMM principles all) skyrocket.

Well, I can dream.

cbgg

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2013, 01:20:17 PM »
Why the heck do you wanna move down there? I'd love to move up there!

Tell me about it!  My husband is American and he's tired of the rain.  He's Californian...they are a little soft.  There are great opportunities in the States, but I am starting to understand why so many people seem frustrated with the government down there.  Everything is just so messy.  I'm starting to joke that I'm a "USA only Libertarian."  I appreciate that running the largest economy in the world is complicated, but this process has made me appreciate the Canadian government so much.

cbgg

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2013, 01:35:57 PM »
Is there any first-world country where the tax system is not a mess?

I agree that things are far too complex, but I am afraid a solution is difficult. What would you do?


I challenge the idea that all first world countries have unruly tax systems.  I'm Canadian and I find the tax system here to be pretty straight forward.  Pretty much anyone can navigate their own personal tax returns with minimal issues.  We have straightforward, easy to understand tax shelter products.  We do not have a series of insanely complicated loopholes that allow high income earners to pay the least amount of tax (check out this article by Root of Good to see the insanity - http://rootofgood.com/make-six-figure-income-pay-no-tax/).  I'm not a tax/accounting professional, but I know a lot of them and they seem to agree that the US tax system is an unruly beast completely unlike anything else in the developed world.

As it is, I'm committed to learning and gaming the system to the best of my ability.  The cross border stuff makes life more complicated but who can really complain about getting to live in either Canada or the USA, right?

I'm super bummed that I'll lose my TFSA tax shelter though.  Anyone know if there is a rule change coming up allowing that income to be recognized by the US government as tax sheltered or rolled into a ROTH IRA?

Mazzinator

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2013, 02:56:51 PM »
If you think that's bad, wait until you have to go to the DMV :)

rocketman48097

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2013, 03:23:10 PM »
Why the heck do you wanna move down there? I'd love to move up there!

Seth, I suggest you do so.  See how long you last.  So glad I don't live in your City anymore. 

gimp

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2013, 04:52:23 PM »
I challenge the idea that all first world countries have unruly tax systems.  I'm Canadian and I find the tax system here to be pretty straight forward.  Pretty much anyone can navigate their own personal tax returns with minimal issues.  We have straightforward, easy to understand tax shelter products.  We do not have a series of insanely complicated loopholes that allow high income earners to pay the least amount of tax (check out this article by Root of Good to see the insanity - http://rootofgood.com/make-six-figure-income-pay-no-tax/).  I'm not a tax/accounting professional, but I know a lot of them and they seem to agree that the US tax system is an unruly beast completely unlike anything else in the developed world.

As it is, I'm committed to learning and gaming the system to the best of my ability.  The cross border stuff makes life more complicated but who can really complain about getting to live in either Canada or the USA, right?

I'm super bummed that I'll lose my TFSA tax shelter though.  Anyone know if there is a rule change coming up allowing that income to be recognized by the US government as tax sheltered or rolled into a ROTH IRA?

To be fair, the taxes that 99% of americans file are also really simple. All the information is easily and publicly available. However, a lot of scaremongering goes into making the process seem difficult. I generally do my taxes in about two hours these days (it's super annoying to file taxes for FOUR states.)

Loopholes? I agree they're big enough that we can drive a truck filled with money through them. And often do. However, with due respect, I challenge that you don't have similar loopholes everywhere. Rich people can influence laws...

The truth about really wealthy people paying relatively few taxes is that capital gains are taxed at 15%. Whereas the highest wage bracket is something like 35%. If you're truly wealthy, you're not working a wage. You're sitting on huge investments. You're also paying accountants to make sure all the money is invested in ways that earn the most post-tax money. The reason we tax capital gains at 15% is because a popular economic theory is that capital gains taxes limit growth a lot. I have no idea whether that's true; economic theory is very liquid, I don't have any expertise to speak of; it sounds reasonable, so it may well be the case. Of course, there are counterpoints that sound equally reasonable.

In canada, it appears the capital gains tax works differently: you are taxed on only half of the capital gains, but it's taxed at your marginal rate. Considering the US is 15% vs 35%, it's not that far different. I suspect you folks have a great many very wealthy people who pay a smaller percent than normal people for this reason alone. It's not a loophole or a tax dodge.

cbgg

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2013, 09:57:48 PM »
Well I'm glad to hear a lot of people think it's not really so bad once you know the lay of the land.  That's reassuring.


LalsConstant

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2013, 06:26:54 AM »
The word loophole in discussing taxes cracks me up.  When I take a deduction or credit it's a deduction or credit.

When someone else does it I call it a loophole and seethe at the injustice XD

Luck better Skill

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Re: What the heck? The American tax system is a mess.
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2013, 08:32:24 AM »
  I think this one was in the Devil's Dictionary:

Loophole - the means by which a richer person can be in a higher tax bracket and legally pay less percentage or amount in taxes then a poor person.