Author Topic: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?  (Read 18279 times)

v8rx7guy

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2018, 11:07:24 AM »
I was just listening to a podcast where J.D. Roth talks about how the Dave Ramsey debt snowball method made a "huge difference" in his paying off of his debt:

https://www.choosefi.com/045-jd-roth-get-rich-slowly/

Starts at about 20:00.  This is J.D. Roth, people!

boarder42

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2018, 11:58:58 AM »
I was just listening to a podcast where J.D. Roth talks about how the Dave Ramsey debt snowball method made a "huge difference" in his paying off of his debt:

https://www.choosefi.com/045-jd-roth-get-rich-slowly/

Starts at about 20:00.  This is J.D. Roth, people!

ok so a financial blogger was shitty at finances and needed shitty advice for awhile and then stopped following the rest of the stuff that guy spouts.  I guess everyone needs some preschooling but guess what we're all still entitled to our opinions of the terribleness of DR's advice - you can continue teaching it but i'd personally be looking for a higher level form of teaching that would put people in much better shape. 


Jeff K

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2018, 01:14:59 PM »
Having listened to him on the radio (I've never read his books) here's what I can say:

Debt Reduction - His approach, while not the most efficient, gets people out of debt.  Attacking the debt in order of smallest balance to largest can play better to the psychology of debt reduction than simply attacking debts mathematically.  For someone in his audience, this is the more effective approach since their level of financial discipline is likely more akin to a child in need of hand holding than a Mustachian badass.  At the end of the day, even if someone following the snowball approach fails, they may have at least eliminated some debts and reduced their monthly obligations.

Debt in General - DR doesn't like debt and I don't either but I don't think that the question of whether or not to take on debt is such a cut and dry issue.  For instance, if I was going to buy a car that cost 10k and I had the choice of either selling off appreciated shares of VTSAX or take a 2% loan, I'd take the 2% loan.  If the loan was 6%, then maybe I'd sell the shares.  I just don't think you can broad brush every scenario like that when there is nuance.

Investments - He never says exactly what funds he's invested in but I get the feeling that he pushes people into actively managed mutual funds through his ELPs that likely charge their own fees/commissions.  Not a fan.

Life Insurance - After owning (and getting out of) a whole/universal life policy, I agree with him 100% on this.  They are silly products that really don't benefit you long term if you plan on leading a life of financial discipline.  The one I had charged exorbitant fees both up front and ongoing to the investment side.  And, if you want to get money out of those investments, it can only be done in the form of a loan against the cash value (6% interest in my case).

jlcnuke

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2018, 01:41:09 PM »
Having listened to him on the radio (I've never read his books) here's what I can say:

Debt Reduction - His approach, while not the most efficient, gets people out of debt.  Attacking the debt in order of smallest balance to largest can play better to the psychology of debt reduction than simply attacking debts mathematically.  For someone in his audience, this is the more effective approach since their level of financial discipline is likely more akin to a child in need of hand holding than a Mustachian badass.  At the end of the day, even if someone following the snowball approach fails, they may have at least eliminated some debts and reduced their monthly obligations.

Debt in General - DR doesn't like debt and I don't either but I don't think that the question of whether or not to take on debt is such a cut and dry issue.  For instance, if I was going to buy a car that cost 10k and I had the choice of either selling off appreciated shares of VTSAX or take a 2% loan, I'd take the 2% loan.  If the loan was 6%, then maybe I'd sell the shares.  I just don't think you can broad brush every scenario like that when there is nuance.

Investments - He never says exactly what funds he's invested in but I get the feeling that he pushes people into actively managed mutual funds through his ELPs that likely charge their own fees/commissions.  Not a fan.

Life Insurance - After owning (and getting out of) a whole/universal life policy, I agree with him 100% on this.  They are silly products that really don't benefit you long term if you plan on leading a life of financial discipline.  The one I had charged exorbitant fees both up front and ongoing to the investment side.  And, if you want to get money out of those investments, it can only be done in the form of a loan against the cash value (6% interest in my case).

FYI, they're not "his ELPs" in the sense that he trains them/tells them what to do/etc (for his investment advisor type, now smartvestor or something). They pretty much just pay him to put them on his list to get more customers.

Jeff K

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2018, 02:06:37 PM »
Quote
FYI, they're not "his ELPs" in the sense that he trains them/tells them what to do/etc (for his investment advisor type, now smartvestor or something). They pretty much just pay him to put them on his list to get more customers.

Good point of clarification there.  Since his show follows what I'll just call the "I'm the shepard and you're my flock" format (like many conservative talk shows), it only makes sense for him to have a side business of selling access to the flock as a commodity.

Laserjet3051

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2018, 04:20:59 PM »
With regards to investing, I consider myself an advanced boglehead, who is also a self-professed atheist.........and I love Dave. But that doesn't mean i agree with every bit of his investing advice.

birdman2003

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2018, 04:45:47 PM »
I like how he encourages people to get out of debt, buy a used car with cash, and live within their means.  Simple but effective.  A lot of Americans could benefit from his message.

lhamo

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2018, 04:48:56 PM »
I still listen to Dave's podcast, even though I don't follow his advice.  We carry several credit cards that we use for travel points/cash back.  Get back much more than the fees (only one is a fee-based card at this point and the $95 annual fee gets us $500-600 in travel, so worth it) and we pay them off via auto deduct from checking on the due day (so benefit a bit from the float).   

The psychological benefits of having a system and a built in support network are what really makes Dave's approach work for a lot of people.  FPU provides people with a system of public accountability -- people often go to classes at their home church, so that is an EXTRA layer of it, especially if they buy into dave's religious philosophy that they are just stewards of god's money anyway. 

He was a genius to get FPU into churches -- he gets free space and volunteer moderators for a course that has a relatively low overhead cost to produce (DVDs and books).  His profit margins on each FPU package he sells must be really nice.  I'm guessing his sales team probably gets a low base salary + commission, so the more they can sell the higher his margins.  And he probably doesn't keep people around who can't sell the dickens out of the thing. He tightly controls hiring -- you have to have 100% buy in to his philosophy/world view or you aren't going to last there. 

He has also been very clever about succession planning -- managed to get his daughter Rachel in early as the heir apparent (in spite of her having a voice that is like nails on a chalkboard) and has groomed several "Ramsey Authorities" out of people who often have somewhat questionable skillsets (how did they convince people that the guy with the booming voice is some kind of retirement expert?).  Its all in the packaging, I guess.  It was interesting to see Jon Acuff get drawn in and then watch him leap out.  They kept his main idea for a year or two (the Start Conference) and then spun it into something else (the Smart Conference).


thriftycanadian

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2018, 06:44:26 PM »
His advice is solid for most people.  Even his investment advice, most people can't or shouldn't manage their own investment portfolio, he advises seeing a good financial planner.  I have no problem with that advice, but, it's just not for me. 
Only issue I have is in the past he claimed people can get 12% on average per year in returns - though historically possible with a cross section of managed mutual funds, that's not realistic.  Past returns do not 100% predict future returns on managed funds.

I used to listen to him early in my financial journey and if anything, hearing people call in and comment on their success motivated me to pay off my own debts, and eventually my mortgage.

I am now an employed (for now) financially independent low fee ETF indexer.  I might turn him on the radio once a month for about 20mins, just to hear those "debt free screams"  LOL
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 06:42:00 PM by thriftyc »

vikingtantan

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2018, 07:11:08 PM »
I'm a big supporter of Dave Ramsey because he "helped" me pay off $80k of debt in one year and I've been living that debt-free life for two years now. I akin him to being the equivalent of a high school diploma in personal finance. He teaches you to have a small emergency fund, create and live on a budget, avoid debt, save for retirement, and pay cash for things. There are things that I disagree with him on like the use of credit cards and having a credit score but for the MAJORITY of people, I would say that his advice is enough to build a strong foundation towards financial independence.

I think The Bogleheads would be the Bachelor's degree in personal finance. You'll learn more about asset allocations, tax loss harvesting, mega backdoor Roths, and more detailed stuff to really accelerate your path to financial Independence. At the same time, I strongly believe in diversification of education therefore it shouldn't be strictly MMM, DR, or BH - it should be a mix of them and you choose which parts make the most sense to you.

^ This (in bold font). I strongly believe in diversification. I've used financial techniques from "The Richest Man in Babylon" by George S. Clason, a bit of Dave Ramsey's snowball method for getting out of debt, and now continuing on with trying to stay on 50/50 split for expenses and savings because of the MMM chart I saw on savings rate vs time needed to work until retirement. I pick and choose the methods that sound right to me, but more importantly, the ones that motivate me into continuing to make better financial decisions.

Bateaux

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2018, 05:40:02 AM »
I like Dave.  Some people need his approach to get started.  It was the message of those like Dave who made me realize that you must save and invest.  Advanced Mustacians maybe don't appreciate the power of Baby Steps to those in deep red debt.  Dave has a lot more good than bad to offer most people.

SwitchActiveDWG

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2018, 06:08:52 AM »
Diversification is great, but if you find Dave Ramsey and then do some quick research on his advice you can soon ascertain his advice is subpar at best.

Everyone starts with baby steps, but with his advice youíll be taking baby steps for a long long time relative to other methods.

Apple_Tango

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2018, 09:14:25 AM »
Diversification is great, but if you find Dave Ramsey and then do some quick research on his advice you can soon ascertain his advice is subpar at best.

Everyone starts with baby steps, but with his advice youíll be taking baby steps for a long long time relative to other methods.

Yeah, at the end of his baby steps he recommends to max out your savings to 15% of your income. I never understood why he stops there because it seems low.

v8rx7guy

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2018, 09:26:52 AM »
Diversification is great, but if you find Dave Ramsey and then do some quick research on his advice you can soon ascertain his advice is subpar at best.

Everyone starts with baby steps, but with his advice youíll be taking baby steps for a long long time relative to other methods.

Yeah, at the end of his baby steps he recommends to max out your savings to 15% of your income. I never understood why he stops there because it seems low.

He never says to stop at 15%, but rather after achieving 15% you move onto saving for kid's college (baby step 5) and paying down your house (baby step 6).  Baby step 7 building wealth, living & giving like no one else.  The building wealth part of baby step 7 is a great opportunity to up your retirement contributions.

Another view on this was a nice interpretation I heard on Radical personal finances' podcast.  He claims that Dave Ramsey's 15% recommendation (along with many others) is based on a similar chart found in MMM's "shockingly simple math" .  If one was to save 15% for 43 years they would by definition be financially independent via the 4% rule.  Working for 40+ years to traditional retirement age is not all that uncommon outside of the FI circles, so it makes sense.  In addition, following the DR baby steps to a "tee" you'll also have a paid off home in 15 years or less adding a nice cushion for your retirement.

J Boogie

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #64 on: March 15, 2018, 09:57:53 AM »
I sympathize with a few of the criticisms that have already been mentioned regarding his advice, but I generally agree it is sound advice for the average american (8% withdrawal rate being an exception).

My big issue with Dave Ramsey is the mansion he had built for himself. I simply don't buy the contortion of Christian values that tries to square excessive displays of wealth with Christ's teachings (it's known as prosperity theology). In many ways Pete acts in a more Christian way with his wealth, conserving & donating a far larger portion of it rather than frittering it away on himself and a select group of loved ones.

Ramsey has argued that he holds many fundraisers at his mansion. If that's the reason for your space, then have an event hall that you also rent out for weddings etc and donate/invest money for future donation. Otherwise its just a convenient excuse to live like a Renaissance king.

I wouldn't judge your everyday multimillionaire this harshly for living opulently, but this is a man who is held up/holds himself up as an example of how a Christian should act with their money.




FireHiker

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2018, 10:07:25 AM »
I have mixed opinions on DR. I have never actually watched him on a show or listened to a radio show or podcast or anything, but I've read enough about his steps to know the basic idea. I know many people (including my highly dysfunctional mother) who would dramatically benefit from following DR's steps. I really like the analogies where DR is considered preschool or general ed, and other sources like MMM and Bogleheads are considered to be college/advanced education. That's the exact analogy I have used when I introduced MMM to a DR-loving friend of mine.

Although I really don't care for a lot of aspects of DR (the religious side which I find disingenuous, for instance) I think being exposed to his advice would be beneficial to a large portion of our consumerist society, although I don't know mathematically whether the number who could benefit is 30%, 50%, 90%. I think once someone is disciplined enough to be out of debt and saving money, DR leaves a lot of opportunity on the table though. I especially diverge from him on credit cards vs. cash. We use credit cards for nearly every expense possible because we want the travel rewards/cash back, be we absolutely do not ever carry a balance or pay interest on them.

I generally don't offer financial advice to other people IRL, but there have been a couple of times that I've recommended DR to people who I think could benefit from at least reading his book from the library or looking up his steps online. At least he is an entry point for people who are otherwise clueless on financial matters.

lhamo

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2018, 10:17:55 AM »
His daughter Rachel was interviewed by Paula Pant on Afford Anything recently, and mentioned that her sister runs the family trust and that most of Dave's charitable giving is directed through that.  It isn't huge for someone with his level of wealth (asset base just over $2 mill in 2016), and their level of giving is also not enormous.  But at least his daughter doesn't seem to take a salary for her part-time work for the trust (listed as .30 FTE).  They distributed just under 400k in grants in 2016

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/274314234/201711359349101436/IRS990PF

tomsang

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2018, 12:09:05 PM »
Although I really don't care for a lot of aspects of DR (the religious side which I find disingenuous, for instance) I think being exposed to his advice would be beneficial to a large portion of our consumerist society, although I don't know mathematically whether the number who could benefit is 30%, 50%, 90%. I think once someone is disciplined enough to be out of debt and saving money, DR leaves a lot of opportunity on the table though. I especially diverge from him on credit cards vs. cash. We use credit cards for nearly every expense possible because we want the travel rewards/cash back, be we absolutely do not ever carry a balance or pay interest on them.

I think you nailed it.  I don't have the same reaction to Tony Robbin, because Tony flat out says that he wants to be insanely rich, successful, etc.  I think Tony's advice is pretty similar to Dave's advice.  The issue that I have with Dave is that he tries to come across as a "Good Christian", when he is helping himself by convincing his followers to buy subpar products. If when discussing investing, if he was pushing Warren Buffet's advice of investing 90% of your money in a low cost Vanguard index fund S&P 500 fund and 10% in bonds then I would be giving him more credit.  Super simple advice, that many may say is too simple, but clearly not bad advice and not one where you are pushing a product that makes you money.  He clearly, is not doing that.  He is looking for kickbacks wherever he goes.  He sells like Tony, but he seems less honest about the sell. 

thriftycanadian

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2018, 12:28:12 PM »
I sympathize with a few of the criticisms that have already been mentioned regarding his advice, but I generally agree it is sound advice for the average american (8% withdrawal rate being an exception).

My big issue with Dave Ramsey is the mansion he had built for himself. I simply don't buy the contortion of Christian values that tries to square excessive displays of wealth with Christ's teachings (it's known as prosperity theology). In many ways Pete acts in a more Christian way with his wealth, conserving & donating a far larger portion of it rather than frittering it away on himself and a select group of loved ones.

Ramsey has argued that he holds many fundraisers at his mansion. If that's the reason for your space, then have an event hall that you also rent out for weddings etc and donate/invest money for future donation. Otherwise its just a convenient excuse to live like a Renaissance king.

I wouldn't judge your everyday multimillionaire this harshly for living opulently, but this is a man who is held up/holds himself up as an example of how a Christian should act with their money.

Where would you say the cutoff point is in house size in order for him to remain in abidance with his faith?

J Boogie

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2018, 02:27:09 PM »
I sympathize with a few of the criticisms that have already been mentioned regarding his advice, but I generally agree it is sound advice for the average american (8% withdrawal rate being an exception).

My big issue with Dave Ramsey is the mansion he had built for himself. I simply don't buy the contortion of Christian values that tries to square excessive displays of wealth with Christ's teachings (it's known as prosperity theology). In many ways Pete acts in a more Christian way with his wealth, conserving & donating a far larger portion of it rather than frittering it away on himself and a select group of loved ones.

Ramsey has argued that he holds many fundraisers at his mansion. If that's the reason for your space, then have an event hall that you also rent out for weddings etc and donate/invest money for future donation. Otherwise its just a convenient excuse to live like a Renaissance king.

I wouldn't judge your everyday multimillionaire this harshly for living opulently, but this is a man who is held up/holds himself up as an example of how a Christian should act with their money.

Where would you say the cutoff point is in house size in order for him to remain in abidance with his faith?

His house is over 13,000 sq ft plus a garage of nearly 1,500 sq ft.

I believe he has two children, and even if they are adult, I think it's reasonable for empty nesters to have bedrooms ready for them to encourage them to visit during holidays etc. If you have a home office/art studio that you'd rather not double as a bedroom, that's not a big deal. So that's a 3-5 bedroom house. Perfectly normal, plenty of people on this forum probably have 5 bedroom houses.

To live as a Christian I believe you would need to follow what Pope Leo XIII once wrote: "Once the demands of necessity and propriety have been met, the rest that one owns belongs to the poor"

There's nothing specifically Catholic about that teaching.

I think the cutoff is that 2,000 - 3,000 sq ft 3-5 bedroom house, unless you are informally operating as some type of shelter.

Peter Singer is known for saying something to the effect of we would feel guilty if we had two jackets and we ignored a freezing shirtless person as we walked by. But for some reason we don't feel guilty when we indulge in countless excesses knowing full well there are millions who lack basic necessities and we are fully capable of helping them. We simply choose not to and our physical distance from this suffering somehow alleviates our guilt.

The tale of the widow's mite in the gospels illustrates Pope Leo's point perfectly, that we are not judged on how much we donate but rather what portion of our wealth we donate. And this portion is preserved quite well if you only spend $30,000 a year - less so if you have a 13,000 sq ft castle to heat & cool, pay property taxes on, maintain, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_the_widow%27s_mite


« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 02:32:29 PM by J Boogie »

Apple_Tango

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2018, 02:57:08 PM »
Iím not a Christian, so maybe Iím not understanding...but I donít think a big house makes you a worse Christian. It doesnít make him a Mustachian but I donít see a problem with his house from a religious standpoint. Iím sure itís all paid for in cash. It makes his actions consistent with his words- his motto is ďlive like no one elseĒ (aka scrimping and saving) ďso you can live like no one elseĒ (aka in a 13,000 sqft mansion). Thatís what heís doing. Frankly I think heís more honest than the televangelists I sometimes see on TV. At least he owns up to liking and wanting nice stuff. And he doesnít ask for people to send him donations or try to fleece them. He developed a program that helps people, and people pay him for his books, classes, and lectures. Seems fair and square to me.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 03:01:21 PM by Apple_Tango »

SwitchActiveDWG

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2018, 03:10:13 PM »
Iím not a Christian, so maybe Iím not understanding...but I donít think a big house makes you a worse Christian. It doesnít make him a Mustachian but I donít see a problem with his house from a religious standpoint. Iím sure itís all paid for in cash. It makes his actions consistent with his words- his motto is ďlive like no one elseĒ (aka scrimping and saving) ďso you can live like no one elseĒ (aka in a 13,000 sqft mansion). Thatís what heís doing. Frankly I think heís more honest than the televangelists I sometimes see on TV. At least he owns up to liking and wanting nice stuff. And he doesnít ask for people to send him donations or try to fleece them. He developed a program that helps people, and people pay him for his books, classes, and lectures. Seems fair and square to me.

I think more people have an issue with the fact that he sometimes seems to leverage his religion to push his personal agenda/business.

Apple_Tango

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2018, 03:30:41 PM »
Okay but thatís his niche. Seems like 100% of the callers are also Christian. At least thatís who they put through on the radio. Iím not, so Iím not going to take his FPU class. I donít feel bullied or swindled to do so, and if I (an atheist) like listening, Iím sure Christians love it.

As far as leveraging a religion to push your business, I think there are more heinous examples. Dave is quite an honest man and I belive he is trying to help people. Thereís nothing wrong with making a profit by helping others. Thatís called working.

Milizard

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #73 on: March 15, 2018, 03:34:01 PM »
I sympathize with a few of the criticisms that have already been mentioned regarding his advice, but I generally agree it is sound advice for the average american (8% withdrawal rate being an exception).

My big issue with Dave Ramsey is the mansion he had built for himself. I simply don't buy the contortion of Christian values that tries to square excessive displays of wealth with Christ's teachings (it's known as prosperity theology). In many ways Pete acts in a more Christian way with his wealth, conserving & donating a far larger portion of it rather than frittering it away on himself and a select group of loved ones.

Ramsey has argued that he holds many fundraisers at his mansion. If that's the reason for your space, then have an event hall that you also rent out for weddings etc and donate/invest money for future donation. Otherwise its just a convenient excuse to live like a Renaissance king.

I wouldn't judge your everyday multimillionaire this harshly for living opulently, but this is a man who is held up/holds himself up as an example of how a Christian should act with their money.

Where would you say the cutoff point is in house size in order for him to remain in abidance with his faith?
If he claims to be a follower of Christ, then he should strive to have no more than Christ had. (And yes, I realize this is an impossible standard for anyone who isn't dirt poor.)

kayvent

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #74 on: March 15, 2018, 03:42:52 PM »
I was just listening to a podcast where J.D. Roth talks about how the Dave Ramsey debt snowball method made a "huge difference" in his paying off of his debt:

https://www.choosefi.com/045-jd-roth-get-rich-slowly/

Starts at about 20:00.  This is J.D. Roth, people!

First exposure to Roth. He came to the same conclusion I did to: that the debt snowball isn't that much more inefficient than the debt avalanche.

FireHiker

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #75 on: March 15, 2018, 04:32:53 PM »
I think more people have an issue with the fact that he sometimes seems to leverage his religion to push his personal agenda/business.

That's exactly the issue I have with him! Same as Joel Osteen. They seem so fake in their faith to me. I am much more impressed when words match actions (not that I'm great at it either, pot meet kettle for sure).

nick663

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #76 on: March 15, 2018, 05:21:19 PM »
I didn't see anyone touch on this portion of his advice:
Conventional investing wisdom says you must start saving for retirement as soon as you can, whether or not you have debt or an emergency fund. After all, the earlier you start saving, the more time your money has to grow. Plus, you donít want to leave money on the table by not contributing enough to your 401(k) to receive the full employer match.

While all this is true, it doesnít take into account the fact that when people hit hard times, they will turn to their retirement accounts to make ends meet if they have no other options.

Thatís why Dave takes a different approach with his Baby Steps. He actually tells you to put off retirement savings. Itís advice that goes against everything youíve ever heard about building a secure retirementóor does it?

One Step at a Time
In Daveís seven Baby Steps, investing for retirement doesnít come into the picture until the fourth step:

Save a $1,000 baby emergency fund.
Pay off all your debt except your mortgage using the debt snowball method.
Save an emergency fund equal to three to six months of expenses.
Invest 15% of your income in tax-advantaged retirement accounts.
Each Baby Step adds to your financial security and helps you lay the foundation to build wealth that will last. For instance, your baby emergency fund allows you to focus on paying off debt. If you have an unexpected expense, your emergency fund will cover it, and you avoid sinking further into the hole.

Then, once youíre debt-free, you can concentrate on saving up a fully funded emergency fund instead of making payments. Finally, youíll be able to use your incomeóyour most powerful wealth-building toolóto make real progress on your retirement nest egg.

So... skip out on an employer match to your 401k to pay down debt and even accumulate an emergency fund?  Even if you withdrew that money later as he claims, that is bad advice.

kayvent

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #77 on: March 15, 2018, 06:11:17 PM »
I didn't see anyone touch on this portion of his advice:
Conventional investing wisdom says you must start saving for retirement as soon as you can, whether or not you have debt or an emergency fund. After all, the earlier you start saving, the more time your money has to grow. Plus, you donít want to leave money on the table by not contributing enough to your 401(k) to receive the full employer match.

While all this is true, it doesnít take into account the fact that when people hit hard times, they will turn to their retirement accounts to make ends meet if they have no other options.

Thatís why Dave takes a different approach with his Baby Steps. He actually tells you to put off retirement savings. Itís advice that goes against everything youíve ever heard about building a secure retirementóor does it?

One Step at a Time
In Daveís seven Baby Steps, investing for retirement doesnít come into the picture until the fourth step:

Save a $1,000 baby emergency fund.
Pay off all your debt except your mortgage using the debt snowball method.
Save an emergency fund equal to three to six months of expenses.
Invest 15% of your income in tax-advantaged retirement accounts.
Each Baby Step adds to your financial security and helps you lay the foundation to build wealth that will last. For instance, your baby emergency fund allows you to focus on paying off debt. If you have an unexpected expense, your emergency fund will cover it, and you avoid sinking further into the hole.

Then, once youíre debt-free, you can concentrate on saving up a fully funded emergency fund instead of making payments. Finally, youíll be able to use your incomeóyour most powerful wealth-building toolóto make real progress on your retirement nest egg.

So... skip out on an employer match to your 401k to pay down debt and even accumulate an emergency fund?  Even if you withdrew that money later as he claims, that is bad advice.

Dave Ramsey's advice comes from observations in reality. In the book The Wealthy Barber Returns, David Chilton discusses a shocking trend he is seeing with people who seek his advice. David Chilton's principle advice in The Wealth Barber was to "pay yourself first". Humans, being sophisticated machines, interpretated this as "save 15%, then spend like a maniac." Chilton as a result sees many people who save lots but accumulate lots of high-interest debt.

Ramsey drops retirement savings in step 1 & 2 because many people will gladly hold onto 20+% interest debts indefinitely if they are contributing to their 401Ks. (He also suggesting liquefying secured debts if it can't be paid off soon.) Even for low-interest debt, Ramsey somewhat makes sense. How many of us would take out a LOC at 3% to cover our living expenses so we could put more money into our RRSPs, TFSA, and other retirement accounts?

I don't understand why retirement savings can't be done in parallel to emergency fund building. Last fall, I had a series of incidents costing me nearly four thousand dollars in two months. I cash flowed it. My networth still rose. Would I feel better if I had an emergency fund? Yes. Would it take me long to build one? No. Will I stop squirreling away 30+% of my income to do it fast? Nope because I've been able to cashflow the emergencies that have happened so far.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 06:15:09 PM by kayvent »

SwitchActiveDWG

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #78 on: March 15, 2018, 06:23:19 PM »
Okay but thatís his niche. Seems like 100% of the callers are also Christian. At least thatís who they put through on the radio. Iím not, so Iím not going to take his FPU class. I donít feel bullied or swindled to do so, and if I (an atheist) like listening, Iím sure Christians love it.

As far as leveraging a religion to push your business, I think there are more heinous examples. Dave is quite an honest man and I belive he is trying to help people. Thereís nothing wrong with making a profit by helping others. Thatís called working.

There are certainly more heinous examples. Which is why the religion thing doesnít bother nearly as much as his simplistic approach to finance.

Jules13

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #79 on: March 16, 2018, 08:00:38 AM »
I didn't read all the comments, but I used to listen to DR when I was in college, on local radio, in the 90s.  He was a totally different person then.  He was kind and patient and used to say to callers "the only stupid question is the one you don't ask".  Now, he's an arrogant arse and will just outright call people stupid on the air.  He's so full of himself now and his whole show seems like one big sales ad.  I cannot stand to listen to him.  I think he has a good message in terms of keeping things simple and helping people get out of debt and save (though I loathe the religious aspect, but that's just him), but his current arrogance is just so unpalatable to me. 

Indyfella317

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #80 on: March 16, 2018, 09:31:10 AM »
So back to the OP, my opinion is the guy hit the nail on the head when he figured out by going into churches with a program that would eliminate debt and increase tithing. Brilliant.

I listen to him occasionally, read a few of his books from the library, used the debt snowball method because I often find myself in the paralysis by analysis situation.

Do not care how big a house his has. Not a fan of his daughter or for that matter really any of the other Ramsey personalities. Intrigued to see what happens when he steps away.

I believe he's helping most that listen or call his show. And the best part is if I don't want to listen to him I can turn the station.

 


Bettis

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #81 on: March 16, 2018, 10:30:07 AM »
I didn't read all the comments, but I used to listen to DR when I was in college, on local radio, in the 90s.  He was a totally different person then.  He was kind and patient and used to say to callers "the only stupid question is the one you don't ask".  Now, he's an arrogant arse and will just outright call people stupid on the air.  He's so full of himself now and his whole show seems like one big sales ad.  I cannot stand to listen to him.  I think he has a good message in terms of keeping things simple and helping people get out of debt and save (though I loathe the religious aspect, but that's just him), but his current arrogance is just so unpalatable to me.

I started listening in 2010 and even from then to now, he seems more arrogant and infomercial-ly.  I get the idea of growing the Ramsey Solutions brand, succession plans, and all of that but when I see Rachel Cruze, Chris Hogan or any of the other personalities, I tend to not listen because you know it will be the exact same message with no dissension whatsoever.  Dave is good for inspiration and a few laughs once in a while but I listen a lot less than I used to.

I wonder if any old shows are out there for listening.  I'd love to hear how he was in the 90s-00s.

profnot

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #82 on: March 16, 2018, 10:43:16 AM »
His advice is great for his intended audience (people with little financial self-control and little understanding of finances/numbers who won't really change either of those characteristics much). Beyond that, some of the stuff he says is spot on and some of it is crap.

I agree with this.

My big disagreement with his baby steps is his amount of $1K as an emergency fund is not enough.  It should be 6 months of expenses.  At rock bottom minimum, 3 months of expenses should always be on hand.

J Boogie

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #83 on: March 16, 2018, 12:58:56 PM »
Iím not a Christian, so maybe Iím not understanding...but I donít think a big house makes you a worse Christian. It doesnít make him a Mustachian but I donít see a problem with his house from a religious standpoint. Iím sure itís all paid for in cash. It makes his actions consistent with his words- his motto is ďlive like no one elseĒ (aka scrimping and saving) ďso you can live like no one elseĒ (aka in a 13,000 sqft mansion). Thatís what heís doing. Frankly I think heís more honest than the televangelists I sometimes see on TV. At least he owns up to liking and wanting nice stuff. And he doesnít ask for people to send him donations or try to fleece them. He developed a program that helps people, and people pay him for his books, classes, and lectures. Seems fair and square to me.

I think he's straightforward in living up to his live like no one else motto. But that's not the motto of Christianity.

The problem isn't that he's insincere, it's that he is trying to shoehorn his personal financial philosophy into Christianity and giving many, many others the idea that it squares perfectly.

Christians are asked to be good stewards of what we've been given (natural resources) - meaning we should avoid wasteful consumerism, which is probably the biggest way that natural resources get unnecessarily used up. Ramsey seems to believe that we only need to avoid consumerism if we can't personally afford it, and seems to embrace it when it fits into the budget.

jax8

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #84 on: March 16, 2018, 12:59:57 PM »
His advice is great for his intended audience (people with little financial self-control and little understanding of finances/numbers who won't really change either of those characteristics much). Beyond that, some of the stuff he says is spot on and some of it is crap.

I agree with this.

My big disagreement with his baby steps is his amount of $1K as an emergency fund is not enough.  It should be 6 months of expenses.  At rock bottom minimum, 3 months of expenses should always be on hand.

I used DR back in 2011 and successfully paid off $25,000 worth of credit cards and car loans.  The $1,000 emergency fund worked because it was low enough to jump over Step #1 ($1,000 emergency fund) and move to Step #2 (Debt snowball).  Who wants to get stuck on Step #1 for months?

For most people in credit card debt "3 Months Living Expenses"= 3 months take home pay because they spend every penny they earn.  They spend MORE pennies than they earn, actually, hence the credit card debt.  If the couple brings home $3,000 each month, you're telling them they have to set aside $9,000 before they tackle their debt.  Do you think they are ever going to move past Step #1?  Nah.

When I was doing the debt snowball, I never stopped and went back to Step #1 when emergencies hit.  I let that sucker get down to $400, grit my teeth, and kept going.  If an emergency beyond that happened, I reasoned that I could put it on a credit card.  When tax returns rolled out, I'd use some of it to hit $1,000 in savings again, and dumped the rest on debt.

I quit Dave because his Baby Steps would have us on Step #2 forever, never saving beyond that $1,000.  I can't remember my exact bills, but my snowball looked like this:

Credit #1 - $5,000
Creidt #2 - $8,000
Car - $12,000
Student Loan - $75,000

It's at 2.75% fixed interest.  Why would I slam all of my money at that instead of contributing heavily to our 401ks?  It makes more sense to split my money between extra payments and investments.

There's no one-size-fits-all answer.  That's the biggest lesson I've learned from my journey through debt and personal finance!


Michael in ABQ

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #85 on: March 16, 2018, 01:05:00 PM »
His advice is great for his intended audience (people with little financial self-control and little understanding of finances/numbers who won't really change either of those characteristics much). Beyond that, some of the stuff he says is spot on and some of it is crap.

I agree with this.

My big disagreement with his baby steps is his amount of $1K as an emergency fund is not enough.  It should be 6 months of expenses.  At rock bottom minimum, 3 months of expenses should always be on hand.

Yes, but building up a $10,000 - $15,000 emergency fund if you're drowning in debt doesn't make sense. That's why baby step 1 is a starter emergency fund of $1,000, step 2 is get out of debt, then step 3 is build an emergency fund of 3-6 months of expenses. $1,000 will cover a car repair, or an appliance going out, or a medical bill. The idea is to have enough on hand to at least keep people from increasing the balance on their credit card or doing something really stupid like getting a payday or car title loan.

kayvent

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #86 on: March 16, 2018, 01:12:24 PM »
Iím not a Christian, so maybe Iím not understanding...but I donít think a big house makes you a worse Christian. It doesnít make him a Mustachian but I donít see a problem with his house from a religious standpoint. Iím sure itís all paid for in cash. It makes his actions consistent with his words- his motto is ďlive like no one elseĒ (aka scrimping and saving) ďso you can live like no one elseĒ (aka in a 13,000 sqft mansion). Thatís what heís doing. Frankly I think heís more honest than the televangelists I sometimes see on TV. At least he owns up to liking and wanting nice stuff. And he doesnít ask for people to send him donations or try to fleece them. He developed a program that helps people, and people pay him for his books, classes, and lectures. Seems fair and square to me.

I think he's straightforward in living up to his live like no one else motto. But that's not the motto of Christianity.

The problem isn't that he's insincere, it's that he is trying to shoehorn his personal financial philosophy into Christianity and giving many, many others the idea that it squares perfectly.

Christians are asked to be good stewards of what we've been given (natural resources) - meaning we should avoid wasteful consumerism, which is probably the biggest way that natural resources get unnecessarily used up. Ramsey seems to believe that we only need to avoid consumerism if we can't personally afford it, and seems to embrace it when it fits into the budget.

Step 7?

J Boogie

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #87 on: March 16, 2018, 02:10:02 PM »
Iím not a Christian, so maybe Iím not understanding...but I donít think a big house makes you a worse Christian. It doesnít make him a Mustachian but I donít see a problem with his house from a religious standpoint. Iím sure itís all paid for in cash. It makes his actions consistent with his words- his motto is ďlive like no one elseĒ (aka scrimping and saving) ďso you can live like no one elseĒ (aka in a 13,000 sqft mansion). Thatís what heís doing. Frankly I think heís more honest than the televangelists I sometimes see on TV. At least he owns up to liking and wanting nice stuff. And he doesnít ask for people to send him donations or try to fleece them. He developed a program that helps people, and people pay him for his books, classes, and lectures. Seems fair and square to me.

I think he's straightforward in living up to his live like no one else motto. But that's not the motto of Christianity.

The problem isn't that he's insincere, it's that he is trying to shoehorn his personal financial philosophy into Christianity and giving many, many others the idea that it squares perfectly.

Christians are asked to be good stewards of what we've been given (natural resources) - meaning we should avoid wasteful consumerism, which is probably the biggest way that natural resources get unnecessarily used up. Ramsey seems to believe that we only need to avoid consumerism if we can't personally afford it, and seems to embrace it when it fits into the budget.

Step 7?

That's how he shoehorns it. He mentions charitable giving as a great way to spend money once you have financial peace.

And humans do measure your generosity in terms of how much you give. But Jesus didn't. Jesus judged based on what portion of your net worth you gave (refer to the tale of the widow's mite). And you can give a far greater portion of your net worth if you don't burn tons of cash every year living in luxury.

My opinion is that this isn't purely a Christian take, this is a solid universal moral framework for how to live a virtuous life - and I think Pete champions it far better.

Apple_Tango

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #88 on: March 16, 2018, 02:32:14 PM »
Of course I donít think that ďlive like no one else...etcĒ is a Christian motto. And Dave never claims to be a prophet or something. Heís just a regular guy who developed a business and uses his religion to connect with others and convince them to believe what he believes. And buy what he sells. I think itís fine.  I learned all of this steps for free just by listening to him on the radio. He doesnít make people buy his shit to learn his message.

I just donít see the moral hangup about him maintaining his wealth. He does give back, donate, and change peopleís lives for the better. Maybe he doesnít give away 75% of whatever the percentage is that Jesus (apparently according to what yíall are telling me?) recommended, but who does?

Then again I donít believe in a god, so I donít see him through that lense. He passes some of my checklist of ďgood peopleĒ. 1) honest 2) helps others.  But also  1)heís arrogant 2)he comes across as a bit of an asshole if someone has a different opinion.



« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 11:52:16 PM by Apple_Tango »

v8rx7guy

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #89 on: March 16, 2018, 02:36:50 PM »
Iím not a Christian, so maybe Iím not understanding...but I donít think a big house makes you a worse Christian. It doesnít make him a Mustachian but I donít see a problem with his house from a religious standpoint. Iím sure itís all paid for in cash. It makes his actions consistent with his words- his motto is ďlive like no one elseĒ (aka scrimping and saving) ďso you can live like no one elseĒ (aka in a 13,000 sqft mansion). Thatís what heís doing. Frankly I think heís more honest than the televangelists I sometimes see on TV. At least he owns up to liking and wanting nice stuff. And he doesnít ask for people to send him donations or try to fleece them. He developed a program that helps people, and people pay him for his books, classes, and lectures. Seems fair and square to me.

I think he's straightforward in living up to his live like no one else motto. But that's not the motto of Christianity.

The problem isn't that he's insincere, it's that he is trying to shoehorn his personal financial philosophy into Christianity and giving many, many others the idea that it squares perfectly.

Christians are asked to be good stewards of what we've been given (natural resources) - meaning we should avoid wasteful consumerism, which is probably the biggest way that natural resources get unnecessarily used up. Ramsey seems to believe that we only need to avoid consumerism if we can't personally afford it, and seems to embrace it when it fits into the budget.

Step 7?

That's how he shoehorns it. He mentions charitable giving as a great way to spend money once you have financial peace.

And humans do measure your generosity in terms of how much you give. But Jesus didn't. Jesus judged based on what portion of your net worth you gave (refer to the tale of the widow's mite). And you can give a far greater portion of your net worth if you don't burn tons of cash every year living in luxury.

My opinion is that this isn't purely a Christian take, this is a solid universal moral framework for how to live a virtuous life - and I think Pete champions it far better.


Sorry, but this is wrong.  Dave teaches very specifically that you are to tithe on your increase (aka give 10% of what you make) to chruch / charity no matter what baby step you are on.  Baby Step 7 is for giving generously above and beyond your tithe.

nick663

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #90 on: March 16, 2018, 05:24:31 PM »
I didn't see anyone touch on this portion of his advice:
Conventional investing wisdom says you must start saving for retirement as soon as you can, whether or not you have debt or an emergency fund. After all, the earlier you start saving, the more time your money has to grow. Plus, you donít want to leave money on the table by not contributing enough to your 401(k) to receive the full employer match.

While all this is true, it doesnít take into account the fact that when people hit hard times, they will turn to their retirement accounts to make ends meet if they have no other options.

Thatís why Dave takes a different approach with his Baby Steps. He actually tells you to put off retirement savings. Itís advice that goes against everything youíve ever heard about building a secure retirementóor does it?

One Step at a Time
In Daveís seven Baby Steps, investing for retirement doesnít come into the picture until the fourth step:

Save a $1,000 baby emergency fund.
Pay off all your debt except your mortgage using the debt snowball method.
Save an emergency fund equal to three to six months of expenses.
Invest 15% of your income in tax-advantaged retirement accounts.
Each Baby Step adds to your financial security and helps you lay the foundation to build wealth that will last. For instance, your baby emergency fund allows you to focus on paying off debt. If you have an unexpected expense, your emergency fund will cover it, and you avoid sinking further into the hole.

Then, once youíre debt-free, you can concentrate on saving up a fully funded emergency fund instead of making payments. Finally, youíll be able to use your incomeóyour most powerful wealth-building toolóto make real progress on your retirement nest egg.

So... skip out on an employer match to your 401k to pay down debt and even accumulate an emergency fund?  Even if you withdrew that money later as he claims, that is bad advice.

Dave Ramsey's advice comes from observations in reality. In the book The Wealthy Barber Returns, David Chilton discusses a shocking trend he is seeing with people who seek his advice. David Chilton's principle advice in The Wealth Barber was to "pay yourself first". Humans, being sophisticated machines, interpretated this as "save 15%, then spend like a maniac." Chilton as a result sees many people who save lots but accumulate lots of high-interest debt.

Ramsey drops retirement savings in step 1 & 2 because many people will gladly hold onto 20+% interest debts indefinitely if they are contributing to their 401Ks. (He also suggesting liquefying secured debts if it can't be paid off soon.) Even for low-interest debt, Ramsey somewhat makes sense. How many of us would take out a LOC at 3% to cover our living expenses so we could put more money into our RRSPs, TFSA, and other retirement accounts?

I don't understand why retirement savings can't be done in parallel to emergency fund building. Last fall, I had a series of incidents costing me nearly four thousand dollars in two months. I cash flowed it. My networth still rose. Would I feel better if I had an emergency fund? Yes. Would it take me long to build one? No. Will I stop squirreling away 30+% of my income to do it fast? Nope because I've been able to cashflow the emergencies that have happened so far.
I just can't wrap my head around the concept of skipping out on an instant 50-100% return on your investment (depending on employer plan) to pay down a car loan that is likely around 5%.  Reminds me of the debt snowball in that it is a solution that runs counter to data with some vague justification that can't be proven or disproven.

Zoot

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #91 on: March 17, 2018, 09:03:33 AM »
I just can't wrap my head around the concept of skipping out on an instant 50-100% return on your investment (depending on employer plan) to pay down a car loan that is likely around 5%.  Reminds me of the debt snowball in that it is a solution that runs counter to data with some vague justification that can't be proven or disproven. 

I too have a hard time wrapping my head around this--but it makes a kind of sense when taken in context with his own story of bankruptcy and near-foreclosure and all that stuff he went through when he lost everything early in his adulthood (and as a result of the financial stress nearly ended up in a divorce situation with a couple of very young children in the mix).

His own personal neurosis stemming from that experience comes out in his advice to pay off all your debts before investing, so that you can be sure that nobody will ever come to take your car or your house (or even your marriage and your family) away from you.  It doesn't make purely optimized mathematical sense, but it makes sense as a kind of PTSD-inspired response to what he experienced.  It's the "sleep at night" factor at work, I think.  Tolerance for debt varies across personalities and life situations--his debt tolerance is zero as a result of his experience.  It's also good for sales--if he ever wavers people can poke holes in his strategy and not buy his stuff.  ;-)

As he often says when challenged on the debt snowball "largest to smallest balance" paydown strategy over against the debt avalanche "largest to smallest interest rate" paydown strategy, he understands that the math is in favor of the avalanche method, but if people in that situation had been doing math they wouldn't have all the credit card debt in the first place.  ;-)

I think what's important is understanding both the spirit and the letter of the law.  For his core audience, the letter of the law approach is most often going to be more effective--clear, black-and-white, do-this-not-that Rules Of Personal Finance to get people out of the holes they find themselves in.  Once your understanding of the spirit of the law increases, you can tweak the letter of the law to optimize for your own personality and circumstances.

Milizard

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #92 on: March 17, 2018, 09:57:19 AM »
The only good reason to forego a 50-100% return via match, is that you never vest into that. That is very specific to an individual's situation,  but I feel he should err on the side of getting that match, as at least some vesting is likely.  He doesn't want his followers to think for themselves, though,  and many of them don't want to either, so you end up with idiot advice for idiots.

nick663

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #93 on: March 17, 2018, 02:17:01 PM »
I just can't wrap my head around the concept of skipping out on an instant 50-100% return on your investment (depending on employer plan) to pay down a car loan that is likely around 5%.  Reminds me of the debt snowball in that it is a solution that runs counter to data with some vague justification that can't be proven or disproven. 

I too have a hard time wrapping my head around this--but it makes a kind of sense when taken in context with his own story of bankruptcy and near-foreclosure and all that stuff he went through when he lost everything early in his adulthood (and as a result of the financial stress nearly ended up in a divorce situation with a couple of very young children in the mix).

His own personal neurosis stemming from that experience comes out in his advice to pay off all your debts before investing, so that you can be sure that nobody will ever come to take your car or your house (or even your marriage and your family) away from you.  It doesn't make purely optimized mathematical sense, but it makes sense as a kind of PTSD-inspired response to what he experienced.  It's the "sleep at night" factor at work, I think.  Tolerance for debt varies across personalities and life situations--his debt tolerance is zero as a result of his experience.  It's also good for sales--if he ever wavers people can poke holes in his strategy and not buy his stuff.  ;-)

As he often says when challenged on the debt snowball "largest to smallest balance" paydown strategy over against the debt avalanche "largest to smallest interest rate" paydown strategy, he understands that the math is in favor of the avalanche method, but if people in that situation had been doing math they wouldn't have all the credit card debt in the first place.  ;-)

I think what's important is understanding both the spirit and the letter of the law.  For his core audience, the letter of the law approach is most often going to be more effective--clear, black-and-white, do-this-not-that Rules Of Personal Finance to get people out of the holes they find themselves in.  Once your understanding of the spirit of the law increases, you can tweak the letter of the law to optimize for your own personality and circumstances.
Maybe someone with financial "PTSD" as you describe it shouldn't give financial advice to others?  Especially if that experience is negatively influencing his/her advice? :)

And I disagree with the "if people understood math they wouldn't have debt" argument.  If someone is seeking out advice on how to get out of debt they clearly know they have an issue and are open to advice.  They shouldn't be treated like children and have better strategies hidden from them because someone thinks they can't handle it.

I see no data that shows his approach is more effective but that point keeps getting parroted.  Until there is hard data showing that we shouldn't be assuming that is true.

BlueMR2

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #94 on: March 17, 2018, 03:23:29 PM »
I'm fine with Dave Ramsey.  He's an entertainer that also helps people make positive changes in their lives.  His way is not necessarily the best mathematically, but it's something that people can get into and come out better than when they started.  I know people personally that had no success until doing things Dave's way.  It's not for everyone, it's not the best, but it's a positive influence.

clarkfan1979

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #95 on: March 18, 2018, 12:54:39 AM »
I like him because he is a great fit for people who are financially illiterate. I don't really follow any of his advice personally, but I like the fact that he helps a lot of people who need help. 

MrUpwardlyMobile

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #96 on: March 18, 2018, 06:48:40 AM »
He helps people. Nobody said his way was the best way. Itís just a way thatís better for people that have no way.

Much Fishing to Do

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #97 on: March 18, 2018, 07:38:34 AM »
I'm not gonna make fun of Dave Ramsey just because his advice is overly simplistic for me.  I myself need a Dave Ramsey of exercise right now...anyone who can get my butt back in the gym and caring and accepting its all worth it is what I currently need...if their workout plan is not optimal is something that doesn't really matter until I'm in better shape and know enough to make it better....

wxdevil

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #98 on: March 18, 2018, 10:13:21 AM »
The advice he provides to his followers will surely put them on a much better financial path than they are currently on. However, it's far from the best path they could be on. In a relative sense, he's providing a good service to the masses. It's much better than the realistic alternative for debt slaves. For those who like to think more critically and deeply about finance, there are much better strategies to pursue for financial optimization.

wenchsenior

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Re: What is your opinion of Dave Ramsey?
« Reply #99 on: March 18, 2018, 10:37:50 AM »
The advice he provides to his followers will surely put them on a much better financial path than they are currently on. However, it's far from the best path they could be on. In a relative sense, he's providing a good service to the masses. It's much better than the realistic alternative for debt slaves. For those who like to think more critically and deeply about finance, there are much better strategies to pursue for financial optimization.

Dang, I guess I'll stop listening to Dave, and now listen to random internet person with 5 posts. How many people have you helped with your excellent program?

What bug crawled up your butt?  The objectively accurate post you are quoting was not an attack on you or your admiration for Ramsey.