Author Topic: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency  (Read 9484 times)

browne497

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Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« on: March 27, 2021, 11:02:28 AM »
Wanted to post in 'Off topic' but I was curious to see if anyone knew of any navigation apps that give the option to plan your route with the intention of using the least amount of fuel or battery life based on the kind of vehicle you use. I know generally speaking, ICE vehicles are more efficient at highway speeds and EV's at lower speeds, as well as hybrids so long as it isn't too cold. It would be nice to have an app that takes this into account when planning routes. If it does exist or I'm just not familiar with all the features of google/apple maps, please let me know.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 11:11:43 AM by browne497 »

gary3411

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2021, 12:01:48 PM »
There are so many different factors at play here, that I believe an ACCURATE app like this would be very difficult to develop. You already mentioned some of the complicating factors in EV vs ICE, weather (not just temp). But then there are even differences in between model vehicles of each type.

It also would depend how you define efficiency. A highway route may use less fuel for some cars but if it adds miles you are wearing the tires, etc faster, plus just adding mileage to the car. Then again a non-highway route would add to break wear, etc.

In my opinion, the most efficient route is almost always the shortest in mileage. However, if you plug this into an app or google maps it will take you on the very shortest route. Maybe adding significant time to your trip while cutting as little as 1 mile on the distance.

I find this a difficult problem that I think about a lot, owning a Tesla model 3 SR. But I have no illusions a good app will come anytime soon to help.

I often try to be smarter than the car and use a more efficient route than it suggests. But occasionally I am burned by this because I am unaware of accidents, road closures, etc. that the nav system is.

Anyways, the best solution at the moment on a semi-long to long trip is to look at the map yourself to find what appears to be the best hybrid between the shortest route while utilizing as much highway as possible. Then if google maps doesn't show this route as an option, simply add a waypoint that forces it to, then see how much your estimated time changes. This is more work than I care to do daily, but for longer trips its my process for now. (Tesla nav sucks in this regard as they don't allow you to manually change a route easily).

Sibley

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2021, 06:42:49 PM »
There is frugal and then there is cheap. I think you're straying too far into cheap.

Since you'll probably reject that argument, consider the law of diminishing returns. How much effort are you putting into shaving off half a mile or whatever?

dang1

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2021, 09:53:01 PM »
Reroutes around traffic is a big reason I always have Google Maps running. A few weeks ago, I didn't have Gmaps running which made me not exit sooner in the freeway- a little bit more miles in the reroute, but I wouldn't have gotten stuck in a standstill for over an hour. ugh

Sid Hoffman

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2021, 11:34:04 PM »
If maximum efficiency is your goal, there are no options except electric cars. Most non-hybrids are somewhere in the 30-40mpg range, the Prius is around 50mpg, and EVs run 80 to 120 MPGe. There's simply no contest. Even the least efficient EV in the worst possible conditions is more efficient than a Toyota Prius, for example. So route planning, etc is smoke and mirrors if the goal is energy efficiency above all else. Just buy/lease the most efficient EV you can and call it good.

BikeFanatic

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2021, 02:27:24 AM »
I can not help you with an app for efficiency, but I do use an app called waze for directions and traffic conditions, and the app will reroute you based on traffic to find the most time efficient route if that helps.''I used to have fun calculating and tracking my efficiency and energy usage on my Ebike. I  figured out it was most efficient at lower speeds and certainly more efficient than the ICE care by far. Common sense really but fun to calculate.

bill1827

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2021, 04:20:59 AM »
Driving for maximum economy is easy - in principle. Drive at a moderate speed (45-50mph) and avoid stops and starts. Optimising a route for maximum economy is a different kettle of fish and for unlikely to be worth the effort except for long journeys.

If maximum efficiency is your goal, there are no options except electric cars. Most non-hybrids are somewhere in the 30-40mpg range, the Prius is around 50mpg, and EVs run 80 to 120 MPGe. There's simply no contest. Even the least efficient EV in the worst possible conditions is more efficient than a Toyota Prius, for example. So route planning, etc is smoke and mirrors if the goal is energy efficiency above all else. Just buy/lease the most efficient EV you can and call it good.

You seriously overstate the case for EVs.

According to this site https://ev-database.uk/cheatsheet/energy-consumption-electric-car ev consumption ranges from 235 to 450 Wh/mile. My diesel Skoda Octavia has averaged 63(UK)mpg over 64000 miles. That is an average of 645 Wh/mile. However, that is primary energy value. The electricity for your EV will almost certainly have come from the electricity grid, probably using fossil fuels. The grid is only 95% efficient and grid generators are not that efficient either. For the purposes of argument say the overall grid efficiency is 60% (probably optimistic), that makes your 235-450 Wh/mile 390-750 Wh/mile. Not such a difference.

There's a lot of good things in favour of EVs, but economics isn't one of them.

RWD

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2021, 08:31:46 AM »
If maximum efficiency is your goal, there are no options except electric cars. Most non-hybrids are somewhere in the 30-40mpg range, the Prius is around 50mpg, and EVs run 80 to 120 MPGe. There's simply no contest. Even the least efficient EV in the worst possible conditions is more efficient than a Toyota Prius, for example. So route planning, etc is smoke and mirrors if the goal is energy efficiency above all else. Just buy/lease the most efficient EV you can and call it good.

You seriously overstate the case for EVs.

According to this site https://ev-database.uk/cheatsheet/energy-consumption-electric-car ev consumption ranges from 235 to 450 Wh/mile. My diesel Skoda Octavia has averaged 63(UK)mpg over 64000 miles. That is an average of 645 Wh/mile. However, that is primary energy value. The electricity for your EV will almost certainly have come from the electricity grid, probably using fossil fuels. The grid is only 95% efficient and grid generators are not that efficient either. For the purposes of argument say the overall grid efficiency is 60% (probably optimistic), that makes your 235-450 Wh/mile 390-750 Wh/mile. Not such a difference.

There's a lot of good things in favour of EVs, but economics isn't one of them.

390 Wh/mile vs 645 Wh/mile is still a 40% reduction which is pretty significant. Fortunately grid efficiency and power sources can be improved over time (or one can install solar panels at their home and cut out the middle man) while oil burning will forever be dirty and inefficient.

Don't forget that the oil has to be pumped out of the ground, pumped/shipped to a refinery, refined, transported to a gas station, and pumped into your car. All of those take energy as well.

ericrugiero

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2021, 09:55:33 AM »
Creating an app like that could certainly be done but it would be VERY car specific.  One question would be the goal.  Are you trying to save money or reduce emissions for environmental reasons?  The programming would vary slightly for the different goals.  But, by far the biggest variable would have to be the car.  An ICE car is much more efficient on the highway than in stop and go traffic.  An electric car with good regenerative braking is much closer to highway efficiency in stop and go traffic.  To do this app correctly, each car would need to be modeled in various conditions (highway, rural, stop & go, et).   What makes sense for a tesla model 3 is going to be slightly different from a VW diesel or a honda civic and all will be very different from ford F150. 

If google wanted to create this app, they could model each car and then compare that model to current road conditions.  Maybe each driver could select how much of a time penalty they are willing to accept for more efficiency.  Someone might be willing to accept a 10% time penalty for a 10% efficiency improvement.  Of course, you can typically get that tradeoff just by slowing down on the highway.  Most cars are much more efficient at 60-65 MPH than they are at 75-80 MPH. 
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 10:00:24 AM by ericrugiero »

browne497

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2021, 02:12:29 PM »
There is frugal and then there is cheap. I think you're straying too far into cheap.

Since you'll probably reject that argument, consider the law of diminishing returns. How much effort are you putting into shaving off half a mile or whatever?

It's more of a fun thing to me. For me, there's a mild level of enjoyment out of getting maximum efficiency out of my car. I just figured I'd float the idea out there to see if anyone knew of something like this.

browne497

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2021, 02:16:35 PM »
If maximum efficiency is your goal, there are no options except electric cars. Most non-hybrids are somewhere in the 30-40mpg range, the Prius is around 50mpg, and EVs run 80 to 120 MPGe. There's simply no contest. Even the least efficient EV in the worst possible conditions is more efficient than a Toyota Prius, for example. So route planning, etc is smoke and mirrors if the goal is energy efficiency above all else. Just buy/lease the most efficient EV you can and call it good.
I briefly owned a Leaf but living in my city without a lot of charging options, being in an apartment, the lack of range and the time it takes to refill that range made it not worth it to me. The convenience of filling a gas tank for 1 minute and not having to shape other aspects of my life around the car I own is too great right now.

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2021, 05:37:30 PM »
I don't particularly care to maximize efficiency to that degree. What I WOULD like in a navigation app are the following:

Specify how much my time is worth in regards to toll roads. I don't want to spend $5 to save one minute. And some days, I don't even want to spend $2 to save ten minutes. But if I'm driving somewhere with the whole family, I'm willing to start spending a bit of cash to reduce the drive time. I'd happily settle for a static option that can be toggled (i.e., each 30 minutes is worth $10), but if this could be changed per trip easily...even better.

Minimize trip time by taking into account the need for a car to recharge. The interstate may be the quickest if you only need to spend five minutes to refuel every 400+ miles (and to be frank, you'd likely need a restroom break by then anyway). An electric vehicle gets very different mileage when speeds are in excess of 60mph or so (I still get decent mileage up to 65 or 70-ish, but any faster and there's a very noticeable decline). Taking the slower, and possibly (slightly) longer highway route can actually save quite a bit of time. Plus, often charging stations (I don't have a Tesla, so can't use superchargers) aren't near interstates. Ideally I could say I want to go from A to B, and optionally say I will spend up to X hours driving before needing to stay at a motel overnight that has free charging, and just let the app figure the most optimal route for me.

Until then, I only use the car when I know I can do the roundtrip without recharging, and the van for any longer trips.

Sid Hoffman

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2021, 05:45:17 PM »
Don't forget that the oil has to be pumped out of the ground, pumped/shipped to a refinery, refined, transported to a gas station, and pumped into your car. All of those take energy as well.

Correct, not to mention all the wars, death, cancer caused by air pollution (especially diesel pollution, which is the worst of any combustion vehicle), and environmental damage from oil spills all the time, all around the world. There's a reason why people who know what they're doing do things the way they do.

Below are gas, gas-electric hybrid, and full electric. Nothing even comes close to electric cars. The nonsense about some guy's diesel anecdote and pretending that refining costs, shipping tanks around the world, etc don't exist is just that: nonsense.



Nearly every government in the world is moving away from fossil fuels because it has no future and is dramatically worse for the environment than going to EV. EVs are still emerging tech in some ways and the example above about how city dwellers with extremely short-range EVs like the old 70-mile Leaf are good examples of that, but the planet is telling us every year that GHG is destroying it. It's survival depends on getting away from every kind of fossil fuel ASAP.

Oh, and the nonsense about "But electricity is fossil fuels too" is also nonsense. Every year, electric grids get cleaner and more renewable. An EV is the only vehicle you can buy that gets lower environmental impact the longer you own it. ICE vehicles wear out and get worse fuel economy over time but EVs get cleaner as the grid gets cleaner.

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2021, 05:58:18 PM »
Oh, and the nonsense about "But electricity is fossil fuels too" is also nonsense. Every year, electric grids get cleaner and more renewable. An EV is the only vehicle you can buy that gets lower environmental impact the longer you own it. ICE vehicles wear out and get worse fuel economy over time but EVs get cleaner as the grid gets cleaner.

One shouldn't ignore where the energy to power the vehicle is coming from.

Even if the electric grid was 100% polluting...the generators are EXTREMELY efficient. They're always running at optimal efficiency, unlike a gasoline engine that is only running anywhere near optimum when at highways speeds...where you have a lot of drag from air resistance. An electric vehicle enjoys that near optimal efficiency even at low speeds, where it REALLY shines. Plus the whole regenerative braking thing.

Fact is, the electric grid isn't 100% dirty. A gasoline engine will always use gasoline and will always pollute. An electric vehicle will pollute less even if the electricity is generated via dirty means...but it will happily use electricity generated by wind turbines, hydroelectric, solar, nuclear, whatever Elon comes up with next that has to do with space and satellites and laser beams. The electric vehicle still pollutes, even if the energy source is 100% clean, since there is an environmental cost to making the batteries, the solar cells, etc. The numbers are very much in favor of electric even now, and it's only getting better as time goes on. Yes, there are advances in gasoline vehicles that are making their numbers slightly better than in the past (I include hybrids...just being able to reclaim some of the energy lost braking is a huge deal), but I don't see them ever leapfrogging pure electric.

dang1

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2021, 12:51:29 PM »
“more eco-friendly routes to travel to your destination in Google Maps. Google is working on a new routing model that is optimized for lower fuel consumption and utilizes insights from the U.S. Department of Energy's National Renewable Energy Lab.”
https://www.androidcentral.com/google-maps-getting-big-upgrade-thanks-ar

browne497

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2021, 10:32:44 PM »
“more eco-friendly routes to travel to your destination in Google Maps. Google is working on a new routing model that is optimized for lower fuel consumption and utilizes insights from the U.S. Department of Energy's National Renewable Energy Lab.”
https://www.androidcentral.com/google-maps-getting-big-upgrade-thanks-ar
Crazy timing with the article. Looks like it was posted just days after I asked. That'll be awesome. The other features are interesting too. Thanks for sharing!

trygeek

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Re: Navigation app for MPG/energy efficiency
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2021, 03:58:43 PM »
UPS does something like this their mapping software is programmed to only give them right turns unless necessary since left turns you have to wait to cross traffic. Kind of interesting, they say this saves fuel.