What is wrong with your profession?

[Helvegen]

Your kid might rather do something interesting and useful than just coast to ER in a pleasantly dull office job that gives you a lot of time to goof around on the MMM forums. Some people have that whole ambition thing going on and all that.

This is what I do. I knew early on that I would gladly take less money for less responsibility. I'm not career driven, I just want a steady paycheck and some bennies.

My job is a luxury item. They keep me around for status reasons. In reality, you could every easily just automate my job out of existence, but they don't because our high end customers pay bank for our items and expect a certain level of personal service. I'm very well aware of this and know that any day, some bean counter could look at my position and the amount they pay me, balk, and put it right up first in line for the chopping block. Is what it is. But part of what drove me to do more research into how to become a more aggressive saver and eventually FIRE was this constant uncertainty about whether or not I would have a job tomorrow.

If my kid wanted to do what I do, sure, fine, but I'd suggest a backup plan.

[Schaefer Light]

Telecom:

This is similar to what someone said about IT in that shit can (and does) break at all hours of the day and night, and you're expected to respond to it quickly even if it's 3AM.  Also, in a technical role you're viewed as someone who costs the company money.  You're part of the company's "cost center" and not it's "revenue center".  In a sense, that's true.  But without the technical people what would all the sales folks be selling?  I wouldn't recommend it for a couple of reasons.  One is the on-call responsibilities, and two is that I could see a lot of the functionality we offer today going to the cloud in the very near future.  Lastly, the technical folks typically don't get any recognition until something goes wrong.  If nobody calls to complain about something not working, you've had a good day.  It's pretty bad when your good days are simply the days when nothing breaks.  That doesn't exactly motivate me when I get out of bed in the morning.

[Travis]

Telecom:

Also, in a technical role you're viewed as someone who costs the company money.  You're part of the company's "cost center" and not it's "revenue center".  In a sense, that's true.  But without the technical people what would all the sales folks be selling? 

A bean counter's view of the world, and how I wish I could strangle it out of them.  Sometimes they need to be reminded that all that infrastructure and highly educated personnel they're paying for are enabling them to sell billions worth of product with a mouse click and not lose billions due to theft and espionage. 

[merula]

I work in property and casualty insurance. This part of the industry is far different from life and health, and I actually routinely recommend people get into it:

-40-50 hours per week, in an office, good benefits
-Need reasonable communication, social and analytical skills, but nothing crazy
-Stay where you are or work towards advancement, either is fine

Granted, I'm not saving the world. But the pay is good, no one's on the operating table and I do feel better knowing that our customers generally benefit from our product. People and organizations don't do well managing risky things on their own; our reptile brains say "this thing could happen! run!". Insurance allows people to say "if this thing happens, I'm covered, I don't have to worry", while the insurance company does some math and says "we'll be OK too".

Downsides:
-People think you're boring
-You have to work with some people who are actually boring
-Little ability to go part-time, most of the time

[Zikoris]

Your kid might rather do something interesting and useful than just coast to ER in a pleasantly dull office job that gives you a lot of time to goof around on the MMM forums. Some people have that whole ambition thing going on and all that.

This is what I do. I knew early on that I would gladly take less money for less responsibility. I'm not career driven, I just want a steady paycheck and some bennies.

My job is a luxury item. They keep me around for status reasons. In reality, you could every easily just automate my job out of existence, but they don't because our high end customers pay bank for our items and expect a certain level of personal service. I'm very well aware of this and know that any day, some bean counter could look at my position and the amount they pay me, balk, and put it right up first in line for the chopping block. Is what it is. But part of what drove me to do more research into how to become a more aggressive saver and eventually FIRE was this constant uncertainty about whether or not I would have a job tomorrow.

If my kid wanted to do what I do, sure, fine, but I'd suggest a backup plan.

For sure. I'm pretty glad I only have single digits left until retirement, because it's pretty much guaranteed that my line of work will be done by robots in the next 10-20 years.

[Dancing Fool]

I work in business analytics for a large, data-driven bank.

The good:

• I'm encouraged to learn as much as I can and find novel approaches to problems. Basically, the bulk of the work is pretty interesting.
• Great mix of pay, benefits, and work/life balance.

The not-so-good:

• Large org = tons of hoops to jump through to change anything. And lots of people end up with misaligned incentives that are hard to change (i.e. what they're incented to do isn't aligned with making the company better in the long-term).
• Banks are super regulated in the US. And the people who write the regulations don't always have common sense or an understanding of how banks work

Really not a career anyone actively pursues (we hire folks from any hard science or engineering, math, and the traditional finance and accounting). But not something I'd say your kid should actively avoid.

[Northwestie]

Another reason to pick carefully:  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/job-satisfaction-health_us_57d913f5e4b09d7a688094f3?section=&

[Channel-Z]

TV News

It's still interesting from day-to-day, with some opportunities for creativity.

Cons: Low pay, terrible hours, viewership is declining across the board yearly, and quite simply, we put too much news on the air. Companies decided they needed to be as big as possible, and therefore bought as many stations as possible, putting themselves under enormous debt loads. The consequence-- put more news on the air, but without any more staff. 2017 will probably be a big year for "do more with less" because 2016 election advertisement spending has not met expectations.

[Spiffsome]

Lawyer here.

You will be rigorously trained to see the downside of everything. Perfectionism and pessimism are both selected for and beaten into you. The big firms suck the young talent in and get them on the work-hard-spend-hard treadmill early, so as to keep them dependent for life. You will become more argumentative and find it harder to admit when you are wrong, as well as more risk-averse. The profession's rates for anxiety and depression are four times that of the general population. Also, the grunt work is starting to get shifted overseas and the labour market is flooded with new graduates.

I'm writing from civilised Australia, where student debt is not a major issue (yet). If you're in the US or somewhere similar, add massive student loans to the list.

[With This Herring]

CPA - Staff at CPA firm:

Working for a firm as a non-partner, you will put in crazy hours during Tax Season.  Most firms have a minimum 55 hours per week, but you will go over that, and your hours will increase every year.


From what I've seen of full-charge bookkeepers at small companies:

Because the owner kept some records before you arrived as his first bookkeeper, he thinks that he can/should go into the bookkeeping file (usually QuickBooks) and change things for the current year and prior years (changing prior years REALLY messes things up).  Later he will not remember that he did this, and the accountant will be upset at you for all the mistakes in this year and REALLY ticked at needing to track down the changes to prior years.

You will be given the task of making sure that every hourly employee has his timesheets in on time, but you will have no authority to withhold/delay/estimate the week's pay and will spend late nights getting the payroll done when the same jerk as every week turns in his timesheet 24 hours late and ten minutes after you needed to have payroll done to get home in time.  Because that jerk and the owner hang out on weekends, the owner will have you do a second payroll run a day later on the occasions the jerk turns in his timesheet 48 hours late, causing you twice the work, costing the company money, and making the records just a little more messy for when the accounting firm comes at year-end.

Environmental Compliance Officer (retired) dealing with highly toxic industrial waste and evil corporate polluters. Dirty, dangerous, outdoors in all weather, often in remote areas alone,  indoors in underground tanks, sewers, pits and various convinced spaces in toxic environments in hazmat suits, busting bad guys for illegal dumping of industrial waste, midnight "stakeouts" to find illegal polluters, dealing with bribes and kick back offers (my predecessor is in prison), inspections of some terrible places run by terrible people, having to force compliance in aggressive ways, heavy lifting, repelling down cliffs, and long walks on the beach at sunset (cue the Pinena Collatta song). Oh and fairly low pay.

That sounds like a movie.  Not something I would want to live, but really interesting.  (And I think the song mentions piņa colada, the drink.  Piņa is pineapple in Spanish.)

[mancityfan]

Teaching - I love working with the kids, but..... the teaching "profession" is heading for a major crisis in this country. First of all teachers are not really respected or treated as professionals. Education is driven by money and politics, not educators. There is an 8% attrition rate per year for teachers at the moment. The ones leaving are being replaced by younger folks, 50% of whom leave in the first 5 years. Enrollment in teacher training is down 35% from a few years ago. Teachers are evaluated on test scores and mind numbing paperwork. These problems are not being addressed, and it is set to get worse in the next few years.

[Spork]

Because the owner kept some records before you arrived as his first bookkeeper, he thinks that he can/should go into the bookkeeping file (usually QuickBooks) and change things for the current year and prior years (changing prior years REALLY messes things up).  Later he will not remember that he did this, and the accountant will be upset at you for all the mistakes in this year and REALLY ticked at needing to track down the changes to prior years.

I believe this happens with all professions.  I've had more than a handful of Director/VP level folks that needed administrative passwords to servers/firewalls/routers/etc.  Nope.  You don't.  And if I give the keys to you on a particular machine, I am revoking my own privileges at the same time.

[frugalmaybe]

Physician.  Training is too long and too expensive to be working side by side with people who get paid practically what you make who had much shorter and much less rigorous training. You get stuck with all the complicated cases yet get paid not much more.  People think you are greedy. People think you are rich. You don't start making anything until your 30s at which point you are probably way in debt.  You now have to spend about 50 percent of your day doing paperwork and typing on a computer.  I do love what I do when I am actually doing it.  Would never do again or encourage my children to do it. (rant over, feel better) 

Startingsmal  - I didn't realized the suicide stats for female vets.  That is terrible.

Curious who gets paid similar to physician wages with much less training?

he must be referring to nurse anesthetists. there is no other possible profession he could be referring to, unless he works as a doctor at an investment bank ;)

[Spork]

Physician.  Training is too long and too expensive to be working side by side with people who get paid practically what you make who had much shorter and much less rigorous training. You get stuck with all the complicated cases yet get paid not much more.  People think you are greedy. People think you are rich. You don't start making anything until your 30s at which point you are probably way in debt.  You now have to spend about 50 percent of your day doing paperwork and typing on a computer.  I do love what I do when I am actually doing it.  Would never do again or encourage my children to do it. (rant over, feel better) 

Startingsmal  - I didn't realized the suicide stats for female vets.  That is terrible.

Curious who gets paid similar to physician wages with much less training?

he must be referring to nurse anesthetists. there is no other possible profession he could be referring to, unless he works as a doctor at an investment bank ;)

Midwife?

[frugalmaybe]

as a software engineer... since the technologies in use are changing rapidly, there is no formal education requirement (half of developer colleagues do not have a computer science degree), and there is no professional licensing system, seniority doesn't mean as much as in other fields. you really need to move into management to get any value out of seniority. i.e. as an engineer with 15 years experience the value/advantage you have *in the job market* over a much younger engineer isn't necessarily that great. in a given company your seniority and the correspondingly unique expertise you have about that company is valuable, of course, but in the job market where that company-specific knowledge wouldn't apply, you don't necessarily have a concrete advantage over much younger applicants, especially if there has been a big recent shift to a new technology, such that NO ONE could have more than 2 years experience with that technology. on the plus side, the job market has remained so strong for the past decade, that this hasn't been as much of a problem as it could be.

this is something inherent to the field, in fact. i noticed this  even as a student... almost any of my courses could have been taken out of order. database systems doesn't require having taken compilers doesn't require having taken operating systems doesn't require having taken software engineering and vice-versa. the lack of structured cumulative knowledge and the speed of obsolescence makes your marketability feel a bit fragile.

ultimately it means most of what makes my seniority valuable is what i've learned about business not what programming languages i know.

[frugalmaybe]

Physician.  Training is too long and too expensive to be working side by side with people who get paid practically what you make who had much shorter and much less rigorous training. You get stuck with all the complicated cases yet get paid not much more.  People think you are greedy. People think you are rich. You don't start making anything until your 30s at which point you are probably way in debt.  You now have to spend about 50 percent of your day doing paperwork and typing on a computer.  I do love what I do when I am actually doing it.  Would never do again or encourage my children to do it. (rant over, feel better) 

Startingsmal  - I didn't realized the suicide stats for female vets.  That is terrible.

Curious who gets paid similar to physician wages with much less training?

he must be referring to nurse anesthetists. there is no other possible profession he could be referring to, unless he works as a doctor at an investment bank ;)

Midwife?

anesthetist. nurse anesthetists' average salary is similar to a gp.

[JetBlast]

I second the caution about piloting.  The number of jobs and pay will probably be significantly lower in the coming decades.  The automation is to good and to well established.  And the airlines are always struggling.  UAS-pilot will become a (civilian) thing but same problem of automation, and you could be dependent on FAA regulations to have a job vs actually adding value to your employer.

Whenever someone asks if I'd recommend my job to today's children it reminds me of the joke that in the future airplanes will have a pilot and a dog up front. The pilot's job is to feed the dog, and the dog's job is to bite the pilot if they touch anything.

[Monkey Uncle]

I got into the environmental field because I like the outdoors, trees, wildlife, and all that. 

I spent the first 10 years in the consulting business.  I liked the diversity of the work (wetlands, botany, birds, fish, just about anything that lives outdoors), but that was about the only good thing about it.  The workload was insane because the only way a consulting company can stay in business is to relentlessly pursue new jobs until there is no possible way to do them all, then find a way to get them done.  We worked for some pretty ethically challenged clients, and of course we were always expected to see things from the client's point of view.  Sorry, I didn't get into the environmental field because I enjoy helping big polluters find a way to wipe out endangered species.

I work for the gubmint now.  We do some amazing, positive work to restore the environment.  But we're constantly pulled in a thousand different directions by internal and external competing interests who always want things slanted more toward their particular use of the environment.  Pretty much every interaction I have with anyone, internal or external to the organization, involves some form of conflict and/or competition.  I've worked my way up into management, so I rarely see the outdoors anymore.  I spend 90% + of my time dealing with people bullshit.  Budgets keep declining and expectations keep rising, such that my staff and I are constantly wracked with workload anxiety.  I usually cut it off around 50 or so hours a week, because that's about all I can take and still maintain my long-term sanity.  But I could easily do 80 and not run out of urgent things to do.  We are expected to work miracles on a daily basis so we can keep growing our accomplishments while our budget keeps declining. 

Oh, and did I mention the bureaucratic bullshit?  Need to increase capacity by hiring someone?  The HR hoops will easily take five months, and veteran's preference has gotten so out of control that it's pretty much impossible to hire a highly qualified candidate from outside the govt sector.  Which means all of the agencies hire from inside (i.e., steal the highly qualified people back and forth from each other).  I'm all for rewarding those who've made great sacrifices to serve their country, but they need to be actually qualified for the job.

[NorCal]

Corporate Financial Planning & Analysis:  Mostly a good job with good income growth possibilities.  While there's a lot of automation going on in the field, the field will always be around.

Pro:
-The work can be interesting, and results are easy to measure if you do it right.  You create a budget for a company, and EVERYONE knows whether the company meets its budget.  For a public company, all of Wall Street will know of big misses.
-You get a lot of exposure to understanding big-picture investment decisions from a young age.  At public companies, you start to understand what matters to Wall Street analysts and stock prices.  This has been helpful in framing my personal finances.


Downsides: 
-It can be very seasonal work, similar to accounting.  There are incredibly busy periods followed by only mildly busy periods.  I actually think this is a pro, but most think of it as a con.
-There's a lot of drudgery work in putting together spreadsheets and database queries.  Although some of this is being automated over time.
-You either make it to an executiveish position by the time you're 40, or you're nearly unemployable.  I'm not sure how much of this is an FP&A thing vs. a general Silicon Valley thing.  On the pro-side, you have the potential to make it to an executive type position by the time you're 40 if you're good at your job and you're not trying to retire by then.


On balance, I'd recommend the field as long as there's an interest in it.

[Lski'stash]

A TEACHER.  Things are a changing.  Kids more entitled.  School boards make changes based on money and then say it is based on the best for kids.  I had a beautiful music room with instruments.  It is now locked so the board can save money on cleaning.  I am on a cart going classroom to classroom.  No piano, no instruments, and no big space to work in groups.  Maybe I should thank the school board because they made my decision to retire this year SO easy. Parents also phone and swear at you.  The stress is incredible.

+1  This.

I really do like my job. But I feel like with the way things are going in the education field, unless something drastically changes, I would definitely not push my (theoretical) kid to it.

[Flyingkea]

I'm a pilot too, though pretty low on the rungs. In my experience, in order to get that first job, you need to rack up extra debt to gain extra privelages, (eg instructor rating) so you have well over 100k in student loans. Flight schools then take on the pilots desperately looking for that first job, and pay them less than peanuts - usually a "this is a casual position and we are only going to pay for flight hours". Then, you don't get paid to clean the aircraft, brief the students, clean the school etc. and you are only casual, so nobody is making you stay and do that stuff, but if you don't stay and do that stuff, somehow you don't get any students, so you don't even get the peanuts.
Long story short I was working 8:30-5/6 for about $100 week. Then working 6-12 at McDonalds so I could pay rent.

[StacheyStache]

Lawyer here.

You will be rigorously trained to see the downside of everything. Perfectionism and pessimism are both selected for and beaten into you. The big firms suck the young talent in and get them on the work-hard-spend-hard treadmill early, so as to keep them dependent for life. You will become more argumentative and find it harder to admit when you are wrong, as well as more risk-averse. The profession's rates for anxiety and depression are four times that of the general population. Also, the grunt work is starting to get shifted overseas and the labour market is flooded with new graduates.

I'm writing from civilised Australia, where student debt is not a major issue (yet). If you're in the US or somewhere similar, add massive student loans to the list.

Another lawyer here, writing from Canada.  I would agree with this assessment.  There can be great benefits to being a lawyer but the work can be incredibly tedious and mind-numbing.

Pros:
-Salary can be, but is not necessarily, very lucrative.  In my neck of the woods, first year associates can expect to make at least $55,000 per year, and in many cases, up to $90,000 per year.  In larger cities like Toronto, starting salaries can top $120,000 at the big firms.  Depending on the firm, salaries can increase fairly rapidly.  If you are a sole practitioner, your salary is contingent on what you bring in. 
-You get to work on complex problems and develop creative solutions.  At its best, law can really stimulate your brain.
-You get to work with some incredibly smart people.
-You get the satisfaction of helping people out who really need it sometimes. 
-Your work can often drive new developments in the law or in policy.  That is exciting.
-Law teaches you to think in a very analytical way.  If lawyering is not for you, the skills you learn in law school and practice can be applied to many other fields.

Cons:
-As mentioned, tuition costs are rising.  I was lucky and got out without debt.  I would advise no one to go to law school if it would involve taking on serious debt as it can limit your post-graduation options and force you to work at a firm you don't like, just to keep on top of your student loan payments.  This is particularly an issue in the United States.  In Canada we only have a handful of law schools and they all provide an excellent education.  Across the border, we are shocked to see schools with very shoddy curriculums charging more than $45,000 USD per year.
-Although the opportunity to engage in stimulating work exists, the work can be extremely mind-numbing and boring.  Document review, anyone? 
-The profession eschews innovation.  I think that fax machines only continue to exist because of lawyers.
-For Mustachians, the need to spend large amounts on business clothing can be aggravating.  Although there are ways to reduce these costs.
-The pressure to bill at the larger firms is insane.  Luckily I work at a small shop without this issue, but the horror stories from friends in big law have put me off ever applying to work at one of these firms.  Because of the pressure to rack up billable hours, the hours at larger firms are often unreasonable.
-Sometimes you don't feel like you are helping people and are actually acting in a way that is detrimental to society.
-The job market is very tough right now in parts of Canada.  Law schools are pumping our more grads than the economy can absorb. 
-The stress is unreal.  When the stakes are if you make a mistake your client could lose millions the pressure to be perfect is immense.  Mistakes can lead to you being sued, disbarred, or, having your reputation ruined and being shown the door at your firm.  This is one of the reasons that the profession has such a substance abuse problem.

US lawyer here.

Salaries are criminal compared to tuition and jobs are hard to come by.  I've wanted to be a lawyer since I was in grade school, it's absolutely a calling for me, but I wouldn't have gone through with it had my tuition and living expenses not been paid in full by scholarships, extremely generous parents, and a side hustle I started in college.  I went to the cheapest in state school available, tuition was between 20-25k a year before scholarships, which were rarely given out.  If you were in the tippy top of the class (think top 10, not percent, top 10 students) or had a powerful/well connected father you started at six figures, but most entry level jobs were between 30-50k.  I didn't see any middle ground. 

There is a firm around my neck of the woods that is notorious for advertising every year for a "law clerk" who has graduated law school, has taken the bar and is just waiting on results for the princely salary of 8 dollars an hour.  Yes you read that right.  They want a lawyer who in about 1-3 months has an 80% chance of becoming a licensed attorney for 8/hr. 

The work itself (speaking of public sector not private, no experience with private) is exhausting exciting and exhilarating if you have a passion for the law, but the bureaucracy and red tape of government work is ridiculous.  The word "policy" is thrown out on a daily basis but no one can explain why that policy is in place or what benefit it has over *far simpler solution.*  "That's just the way things are" is an often repeated phrase.  Very little power to change the structure of the job, rigid inflexible hours (your butt WILL be in that chair or in an office adjacent chair from 8:30-5:00 M-F at minimum) and work from home is never a thing.  Lots of pressure to work overtime but undertime and comp time are also not things.  Also agree with PP about outdated technology, chalk it up to a resistance to change in the profession overall.

[Frugalman19]

Personal Financial Planner,

Haven't seen it yet so I'll give this a go.

Pros, you have a real opportunity to change people's lives for the better. You get to plan out their financial future and help them stay on track. It can be very rewarding. I am forturnate now that I am in a place where almost half of my work is pro bono and I get to teach these mustachian philosophies to younger people, and I have the designations and the background for them to actually listen to me and take what I say and make a plan with it.

Cons, there are a lot of people who can get into this industry with little to no experience or education. They are not true financial planners, they are insurance sales men. They have really given the industry a bad name, but at the moment there are laws coming out that will severely restrict what those salemen are allowed to do with is very good.

I would say if someone really enjoyed the money aspect of being a mustachian, this a career where you can get paid to teach people these principles and help people on their way to FIRE, because unfortuetely this world is not made of people who want to find a finance blog and do it themselves, they need someone to help them. The people on this forum are the .0001% of the population.

[clarkfan1979]

inefficiencies are not to be avoided, but exploited. I think people in my profession put too much emphasis on the social status of the organization and not enough on pay. Organizations with great reputations and high social status often pay less, because they can. Organizations with less social status often have to pay more. I typically work for those organizations.

[Tom Bri]

RN, critical care nurse. Cardiac unit. Pros are, it is always interesting, sometimes way too much so. Very much a high/low emotional environment, depending on whether anyone has died that shift or not. For the education required, it is well-paid, and the education is demanding, so most everyone there is above-average smart.
Cons. The ultimate responsibility for the patient's life or death falls on the nurse on shift at that moment. Doesn't matter what the doc orders or said or saw, or what the nurse on shift one hour earlier did or did not do. She isn't there when the sh1t goes down. She's home in bed. So you call the doc to get new orders, but you forget to mention (this happened to me last week) that the patient gained 5 pounds since admission, meaning they are getting fluid overloaded. So, even though I asked the doc if she wanted to reduce the IV fluid intake, it was my fault for not mentioning the weight gain. Boom. My fault. And, it was my fault.
We spend about half the night looking at patient charts, and adding to them. The amount of data is staggering, and poorly organized, so that seeing just the right information and coordinating it with all the other info on other pages to make a correct diagnosis (except nurses cannot diagnose!) is a difficult skill.
The daily stress level is very high, literally life and death. The salary is roughly $50K/yr. Doctors make $180K in my state, according to one website. And we call the doc after the fact to tell them their patient coded overnight. Not complaining. Doctors are far more educated and on average more intelligent than nurses, and deserve the wages they get. But only the ER docs and surgeons have nurse levels of stress. (I am told our ER docs make $300/hour. Don't know if that is true.)

[Primm]

RN, critical care nurse. Cardiac unit. Pros are, it is always interesting, sometimes way too much so. Very much a high/low emotional environment, depending on whether anyone has died that shift or not. For the education required, it is well-paid, and the education is demanding, so most everyone there is above-average smart.

Me too, but NICU.

Cons. The ultimate responsibility for the patient's life or death falls on the nurse on shift at that moment. Doesn't matter what the doc orders or said or saw, or what the nurse on shift one hour earlier did or did not do. She isn't there when the sh1t goes down. She's home in bed. So you call the doc to get new orders, but you forget to mention (this happened to me last week) that the patient gained 5 pounds since admission, meaning they are getting fluid overloaded. So, even though I asked the doc if she wanted to reduce the IV fluid intake, it was my fault for not mentioning the weight gain. Boom. My fault. And, it was my fault.
We spend about half the night looking at patient charts, and adding to them. The amount of data is staggering, and poorly organized, so that seeing just the right information and coordinating it with all the other info on other pages to make a correct diagnosis (except nurses cannotaren't allowed to diagnose!) is a difficult skill.
The daily stress level is very high, literally life and death. The salary is roughly $50K/yr. Doctors make $180K in my state, according to one website. And we call the doc after the fact to tell them their patient coded overnight. Not complaining. Doctors are far more educated and on average more intelligent than nurses, and deserve the wages they get. But only the ER docs and surgeons have nurse levels of stress. (I am told our ER docs make $300/hour. Don't know if that is true.)

What Tom said, pretty much. But magnified when every single one of your patients is a baby. Because babies aren't supposed to die, no matter what. Ever.

And you forgot the admin and funding politics... every year you're supposed to provide better care to more people with less resources. Yeah, right.

And apparently we make about 30% more in AU than the US, although the COL is probably proportionately higher as well. $96k ($72500) here.

[Kakashi]

But only the ER docs and surgeons have nurse levels of stress. (I am told our ER docs make $300/hour. Don't know if that is true.)

Yes that's in the range of possibilities, although $300/hr is on the higher end of the spectrum.  Everything has to be right.  The ER needs to be located in a good community with a "good payor mix".  It needs to be efficient and busy so the docs can see more patients per hour.  The ER doctor is usually an owner/partner rather than an employee. 

I made $300/hr in 2015 (ownership model, no benefits, no vacation days).  Unfortunately a large corporation bought out the contract.  So instead of becoming an employee, I went to another hospital and currently make about $220/hr. 

Comparing $$/hr to other jobs though isn't the whole picture.  I go many 10 hour shifts without eating (too busy).  It's tough physically and mentally.  Not only is it busy, there is constant adjustment to the schedule (shifting between morning, days, and nights).  Hence more ER doctors working full time only do about 30hrs/week.  I personally would prefer an ER job that paid less but is also less demanding. 

[accolay]

Registered Nurse.

- Variable work environment. Just like other professions the job pay and work environment depends on where you work: the state you live in (as far as I have heard, I would hate to be in a red state i.e. the south) the area in that state, the hospital you work in (upper management) and trauma level, private or public, the unit you work in, your direct supervisor (area manager), the strength of your union (if you even have one) and the mix of coworkers on your unit (most people you work with are pretty alright though) Google "nurses eat their young."

- Some portion of America hates unions for whatever reason and wants to get rid of them. And I think that belonging to a union is better than not, taking the good with the bad.

- Hours can suck: switching days to nights and back too frequently (depends on that hospital/manager) holidays, working every other weekend etc.

- Abuse, verbal or physical: This is getting better but it's well documented. Many varieties: Patient to RN, MD to RN, RN to RN or other staff to RN etc etc.

- Stress level.

- Patients are sicker and more complex (and heavier) then they used to be but the drive is to have a higher nurse to patient ratio, which of course puts patients at more risk and subsequently your license. See "stress level."

- Possibility that you could end up with debilitating injury. See "heavier."

- You clean up bodily fluids. Nothing more homey than the smell of GI bleed. Something you'll never forget.

There are more, but I'm tired.

The cons to being an RN make it sound like a horrible job. Should counter with "What's Right With Your Profession" thread.

[PharmaStache]

Hospital pharmacist (Canadian)

Pros:
Not a doctor or a nurse ;)
Good pay right out of school (around 100k/year for full time, but it never goes up that much, just col increases)
Get to learn lots of interesting things in the hospital environment (I've done nicu, peds, psych…)
Don't have to deal with the shit retail pharmacists do (they seriously have the worst job ever)
Lots of variety in places to work, hours, how much you want to work…great for part time or casual

Cons:
So many stupid and wasteful drugs prescribed, can't do much about it- I wish the doctors diagnosed people and the pharmacists decided on the drug to give based on efficacy, side effects, interactions and cost
Issues with doctors prescribing things you don't agree with

[Pigeon]

The Occupational Outlook Handbook is a useful tool for finding out about salaries, educational requirements, working conditions and job outlooks.  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/a-z-index.htm#V  It's not the be-all, end-all, but it gives a quick and easy snapshot.

I have made my teenaged kids get familiar with it.

One of my kids was interested in vet school, and we were able to quickly determine that a vet only has a median salary of about $88K.  While that's a respectable salary certainly, when you factor in the difficulty of getting into vet school and the cost involved, it made that profession less appealing to her. 

[Chranstronaut]

Aerospace Engineer

Overall: highly recommend for studious people who are willing to spend 4-6 years in college.  Job quality will vary depending on company and industry.  Master's degrees are more common, but don't tend to be required outside research positions.  You can work in tons of different fields, and are qualified for most engineering jobs that mechanical engineers are qualified for.  In general, it is less hands on and attracts people who are/want to be pilots and are analytical types, rather than tinkerers/car enthusiasts that are often drawn to ME.

Industries I've worked:

Aviation: It's slow, old fashioned and cyclical.  Good pay at large companies.  The same layoff cycles that SeaKayEl mentioned for a mechanic might affect you as engineer, even at places like Boeing (massive layoffs in the 90s, recent reshuffling of jobs around the country).

Motorsports: Fast paced, informal, low pay, high stress, long hours and potentially travel.  Also very fun, free clothes and promotional posters, free races and joy of being part of a team.   Beware illegal practices (labor, health/safety) in small companies.  You're working on race cars, so some of the downsides are outweighed automatically :D

Also know your engineering jobs:

Designers: usually a "squeeze" position where you will have deadlines to meet coming from above and below you.  The quality of your experience depends a lot on the production management.  Good for introverts who can be creative but detach when a project isn't going well and still needs to be finished.  Usually low on the hierarchy, even with many years experience.  In some places, you are a glorified drafter and in others you are expected to analyze and use engineering judgement.  There are tons of practical details you will learn that you never got in school.

Analyst:  A slower paced position usually, with time to optimize and extract meaning from your products/systems.  Can be production or research based.  Good for middle of the road personalities that like time alone to work, but can handle meetings and presentations.  Expected to show engineering judgement and likely work with a few kinds of software.  This will be most similar to your degree classwork.

Systems Engineer: a study in herding cats, haha!  For the extroverted and patient who can continually bug people to coordinate on projects.  Usually big picture people, often a project management role.  You can take a lot of ownership over your project, but also a lot of responsibility.

[OlyFish]

I am a doctor.

I spend too much time writing in order to justify why I am billing what I bill. There are seemingly endless tiers of administrators who make more money without providing patient care, as well as "six sigma/ lean" certified analysts who we pay to evaluate how we can bill more efficiently. It is much easier to make money if you take a part time admin position while tapering down clinical practice.

It took 8 years of postgraduate education to get to where I am.

People try to make me into their legal opiate dealer. I am simultaneously being graded by my bosses on patient satisfaction, and worried that one of my patients may be playing me to get more narcotics. Patients are generally happy if you give them narcotics, but if it turns out they abuse or divert them, then my ass can get sued.

I have been screamed at by patients and/ or family members who looked up something on Google and think they k ow more about pharmacology than I do.

I have been told by my hospital directors that I may need to stop doing a procedure beneficial to patients because it doesn't make the clinic enough money

I ten to tell those who are considering becoming a doctor to think if there is any other thing that they could see themselves doing, and if so, to pursue that other thing.

I do like my job in some aspects but other parts of it can be incredibly depressing.

[nancyjnelson]

U.S. Foreign Service Officer (diplomat)

Pros: See the world and learn foreign languages on someone else's nickel.  Tours are from 2-4 years, so if you don't like your supervisor or coworkers, either they or you will soon be transferred.  Bored with your portfolio?  That also will soon change.

Cons: Life overseas is becoming more difficult - my kids grew up thinking Mylar coatings on the windows and mirror checks of our car's undercarriage were normal.  More and more tours are unaccompanied due to danger issues, which is hard on everyone in the family.  If you do get posted overseas with your spouse, most likely your spouse will not be permitted to work - free housing does not make up for the loss of that salary, or for possibly deep-sixing your spouse's career.

[frugalmaybe]

I ten to tell those who are considering becoming a doctor to think if there is any other thing that they could see themselves doing, and if so, to pursue that other thing.

what if that other thing is np or pa

[frugalmaybe]

Registered Nurse.

- Variable work environment. Just like other professions the job pay and work environment depends on where you work: the state you live in (as far as I have heard, I would hate to be in a red state i.e. the south) the area in that state, the hospital you work in (upper management) and trauma level, private or public, the unit you work in, your direct supervisor (area manager), the strength of your union (if you even have one) and the mix of coworkers on your unit (most people you work with are pretty alright though) Google "nurses eat their young."

- Some portion of America hates unions for whatever reason and wants to get rid of them. And I think that belonging to a union is better than not, taking the good with the bad.

- Hours can suck: switching days to nights and back too frequently (depends on that hospital/manager) holidays, working every other weekend etc.

- Abuse, verbal or physical: This is getting better but it's well documented. Many varieties: Patient to RN, MD to RN, RN to RN or other staff to RN etc etc.

- Stress level.

- Patients are sicker and more complex (and heavier) then they used to be but the drive is to have a higher nurse to patient ratio, which of course puts patients at more risk and subsequently your license. See "stress level."

- Possibility that you could end up with debilitating injury. See "heavier."

- You clean up bodily fluids. Nothing more homey than the smell of GI bleed. Something you'll never forget.

There are more, but I'm tired.

The cons to being an RN make it sound like a horrible job. Should counter with "What's Right With Your Profession" thread.

did you ever consider becoming np?

[accolay]

did you ever consider becoming np?

Yes, sure. But then again, I can sit at home and punch myself in the nuts for free.

There are definite pros to a nursing career, I just didn't list them.

[BCpuppy]

Registered Nurse.

- Variable work environment. Just like other professions the job pay and work environment depends on where you work: the state you live in (as far as I have heard, I would hate to be in a red state i.e. the south) the area in that state, the hospital you work in (upper management) and trauma level, private or public, the unit you work in, your direct supervisor (area manager), the strength of your union (if you even have one) and the mix of coworkers on your unit (most people you work with are pretty alright though) Google "nurses eat their young."

- Some portion of America hates unions for whatever reason and wants to get rid of them. And I think that belonging to a union is better than not, taking the good with the bad.

- Hours can suck: switching days to nights and back too frequently (depends on that hospital/manager) holidays, working every other weekend etc.

- Abuse, verbal or physical: This is getting better but it's well documented. Many varieties: Patient to RN, MD to RN, RN to RN or other staff to RN etc etc.

- Stress level.

- Patients are sicker and more complex (and heavier) then they used to be but the drive is to have a higher nurse to patient ratio, which of course puts patients at more risk and subsequently your license. See "stress level."

- Possibility that you could end up with debilitating injury. See "heavier."

- You clean up bodily fluids. Nothing more homey than the smell of GI bleed. Something you'll never forget.

There are more, but I'm tired.

The cons to being an RN make it sound like a horrible job. Should counter with "What's Right With Your Profession" thread.

Agreed!

ER/ICU RN

To add:  with the numerous shootings, weapons smuggled in by patients, and attacks on my fellow staff members in the last year,  I am getting scared of my own patients who I just want to help.

[Tom Bri]

Hospital pharmacist (Canadian)


Cons:
So many stupid and wasteful drugs prescribed, can't do much about it- I wish the doctors diagnosed people and the pharmacists decided on the drug to give based on efficacy, side effects, interactions and cost
Issues with doctors prescribing things you don't agree with

I hear you. One thing drilled into nurses is to understand every drug you give before giving it, side effects, purpose, how to evaluate patient response. And to call pharmacy if we don't understand (often. I'm pretty new)! I am fortunate in having a very helpful pharmacy dept in my hospital.

The hard part is calling a doc and asking if they really do want to give some drug. Most docs are great. A few not so much. Most are so busy that it is hard to get their attention long enough to explain the problem. What we really need are more docs on the floor. The ones we have are mostly good, but they need more backup. I have had a couple of docs take time to apologize face-to-face for being short with me on the phone during a crunch.

[John89]

Urologist

con: always having to put finger in other dude's butts
pro: surgery, with a sense of humor

[Monkey Uncle]

Urologist

con: always having to put finger in other dude's butts
pro: surgery, with a sense of humor

What's humorous about surgery?  Are you making fun of the guy's junk while you're operating on him? 

[MasterStache]

Electrical Engineer here.  Not a bad job, but poor job security, limited venues once you specialize, etc.  All places ai have been come with a fabric box to deprive your senses so you cannot avoid noticing every conversation within 30'.  Co-workers are mostly introverts with personality issues (the ones without such issues are quickly Peter Principled away).  Almost all workshops are plagued by impossible schedules, followed by chew out sessions for missing schedule and budget.  Basically yet another soul sucking corporate setting for what should be a pretty awesome job.

+1. Nailed it!!

[Spork]

Urologist

con: always having to put finger in other dude's butts
pro: surgery, with a sense of humor

What's humorous about surgery?  Are you making fun of the guy's junk while you're operating on him?

My dad was a surgeon.  I believe every single procedure was one long joke/story telling time between surgeons and nurses.  Maybe they stopped occasionally to concentrate on the tricky bits... but otherwise nothing but long, terrible jokes (which had nothing to do with the patient).

[BigHaus89]

Electrical Engineer here.  Not a bad job, but poor job security, limited venues once you specialize, etc.  All places ai have been come with a fabric box to deprive your senses so you cannot avoid noticing every conversation within 30'.  Co-workers are mostly introverts with personality issues (the ones without such issues are quickly Peter Principled away).  Almost all workshops are plagued by impossible schedules, followed by chew out sessions for missing schedule and budget.  Basically yet another soul sucking corporate setting for what should be a pretty awesome job.

+1. Nailed it!!

I'm an Electrical Engineer with a very different perspective. I work at a small utility company.

Pros: Lots of freedom to design whatever I want, extreme job security, work with a very diverse group of people, field work when I want, office work when I want, relatively loose schedules, lots of paid training, respected as the guy who knows what the fuck they are talking about, and probably lots more I am forgetting.

Cons: Showing up to work 8-5, M-F?

[cschx]

Patent Examiner - must be self-driven and an on your own worker. If not, you will not be a patent examiner for long. The pay is considerably less than the private sector. However, working from home with flexible hrs and control over my work product are great perks. It also comes with the same positives and negative that most government jobs come with. However, needing veteran status is not as big a factor because few vets have the required background. The job is the best job I have had, beating various engineering roles and a law firm. I would recommend at least having a child consider the job.

Hey Mr. Dorothy, this is a field I've been considering as a career pivot (academic sci/eng librarian at a R1 for the past 10 years, CS degree, very familiar with patent research and do some freelance work mainly for patent attorneys). But I thought you had to be on site for the first few years - is USPTO easing up on that requirement?

[Primm]

Urologist

con: always having to put finger in other dude's butts
pro: surgery, with a sense of humor

What's humorous about surgery?  Are you making fun of the guy's junk while you're operating on him?

My dad was a surgeon.  I believe every single procedure was one long joke/story telling time between surgeons and nurses.  Maybe they stopped occasionally to concentrate on the tricky bits... but otherwise nothing but long, terrible jokes (which had nothing to do with the patient).

Used to be a theatre nurse. Vouch.

Most surgery is very routine mundane stuff they do 17 times a week. Gets to a point where you have to do something to stay awake, and urologists (for some reason, possibly because of John89's first point) have the best jokes.

General surgeons and cardiologists on the other hand? Not so much...

[scantee]

Education policy researcher. I do projects for the federal and state governments to assess programs intended to support school readiness for at-risk children and measure the effectiveness of those efforts.

Drawbacks are pay, access to resources, and monotony. I'm paid well for what I do, but I could certainly make more in the private sector. Working for a non-profit also means there aren't many amenities or access to resources like new analytic programs/tools. Plus a lot of computer work, which isn't a great fit for my temperament and can be a bit boring.

Benefits are: intellectually interesting and worthwhile work. Great benefits. A lot of job stability. Smart and engaging co-workers. High level of job flexibility.

Overall, it's a pretty good and recommendable job but a pretty niche field and not something kids dream of doing when the grow up.