What is the true state of Mustachianism and where do you fall on the spectrum?

[Meinurgill]

I am relatively new to this forum but in my short time here I have noticed a major disconnect.

Some people are all in, others are wading in the FI waters waist-deep, some are just getting their toes wet, and still others are ultimately making excuses for every extra "want"-based purchase they make.

I still haven't figured out where my husband and I fall (or want to be) on this spectrum. Do we have the balls to go all-in? Do we even want to?

It's challenging to figure out the best approach, especially in the forum environment. Everyone has their own interpretation of what a true mustachian lifestyle looks like.

Where does mustachianism stand? Has it been diluted by its popularity? Is it possible to be pseudo-mustachian, or is that just a smokescreen? Is basic frugality enough or are people lying to themselves when they adopt some of the MMM principles but not others?

[socaso]

I think the hardcore principles of Mustachianism apply to people who have hair-on-fire debt or are otherwise in serious financial crisis. Other than that I think the principles have to be guided by your own values. I think the core idea of Mustachianism is to question all the things you are paying for and asking yourself if those things are really necessary for your happiness. Some people don't want to achieve the kind of FI that MMM achieved for himself and that's their choice. I personally want a stash large enough to keep me from working a job I hate but I don't know that I will ever fully retire from working because I like it.

[Meinurgill]

I think the hardcore principles of Mustachianism apply to people who have hair-on-fire debt or are otherwise in serious financial crisis. Other than that I think the principles have to be guided by your own values. I think the core idea of Mustachianism is to question all the things you are paying for and asking yourself if those things are really necessary for your happiness. Some people don't want to achieve the kind of FI that MMM achieved for himself and that's their choice. I personally want a stash large enough to keep me from working a job I hate but I don't know that I will ever fully retire from working because I like it.

I kind of feel the same way about retirement. I don't want to stop working because I love what I do, but I want to be in control of my life. Self-employment would be ideal for me, or a highly flexible work arrangement (like contract jobs).

[odput]

I think this is a bit of a misconception about mustachianism.  It is not about spending as little as possible on only the things you need to survive.  That's being cheap.  Nor is it necessarily a race to FI.  There are lots of SWAMI's out there.  The core of mustachianism is spending your money consciously and efficiently.  This means that the goalposts are different for everyone, but being aware of how you are spending your money is key.

For instance, I have a car-clown commute of 25 miles each way.  Before embracing the MMM principles, I would have bitched to anyone who would listen about how "commuting sucks."  Now, I realize that I could:
a) move closer to work
b) get a different job
c) do not change either a or b

For the moment, I have chosen (c) because I quite enjoy the people I work with, and genuinely believe the work I am doing will better humanity.  Moving is not a viable option because it is likely that we will be relocated within a year, so the payback is not quite there.  So I accept that the commute is an expense related to having my current job.  What I can do about it is drive a fuel efficient vehicle, and stay alert to drive safely.

This may induce some facepunching from those you call "all-in", but I am aware of the cost and deem it acceptable in my budget and values construct.

Mostly, keep your spending efficient and on the things you value, and you are doing just fine.

[scrnplyr]

Just use the concepts in any way you want to without rigidly punishing yourself if you falter. We are basically financial amoebas constantly reforming and what's good for today may change tomorrow depending on what life throws us. The trick is to stay as true to your goals as possible without ruining your life or freaking out when you color outside the lines occasionally.

Someone who is espousing or selling a philosophy such as MMM cannot spend a lot of time dealing with nuance and philosophical masturbation, rather the tenets must be generalized and simplified to reach a wider audience.  As in all things reality, the facts on the ground vis a vis MMM are a little more complicated for most folks who are attempting to follow in his footsteps or razor marks as the case may be...so while it might appear that people are rigidly ensconced in the categories you mentioned, I believe most people use the MMM concepts in a way that benefits them most. As my former econ prof might say "enlightened self interest" has a way of corralling people into efficient economic behavior.

[MooseOutFront]

I don't think there's any sort of scripture that must followed.  My wife and I continue to optimize, but our annual spending still sits at a facepunch worthy $50k after you remove child care.  On the flip side we're set to quit our jobs by age 40 if we can keep spending at this level and then we'll be able to spend our days however we want for a very long time, much of it in our prime while raising children.  This sounds mustachian to me, though less so than others.

[Freedom2016]

I'm enough of an independent thinker that I'm done with drinking Kool-Aid of any kind, and that even includes MMM. I'm not interested in being a follower, adhering to a dogma, and/or being judged for not being a "good enough" adherent to...whatever.

MMM has been valuable to me b/c it's helped me ask important questions about how I use my time and resources. Like some others on here, I'm not using that new awareness to dial back to bare bones spending, as that doesn't appeal to me and doing so would just be a different flavor of following a crowd. I'm well aware of what I would get face punches for here, but I personally am comfortable living with the choices I've made, at least for now, and I know the tradeoffs I'm making. But MMM has been very useful in helping me ratchet up our savings and think more deliberately about my family's future and how important financial independence is for us.

Turns out I am also lucky in that I basically run my own business, have tons of autonomy, plenty of down time, and lots of income potential. So in some respects I'm already living the MMM dream - I'm not on a treadmill, don't hate what I do, am not seeking escape from "the grind." Others who are may find more appeal in going "all in."

YMMV...

[CptCool]

I'd say this MMM quote (one of my favorite quotes I've ever seen or read) sums up the true state of Mustachianism and what it is all about:

"Life is not a contest to see who can accomplish the most. It’s simply a series of days where your goal is to wake up, have a great time, and go to bed even happier than when you woke up."

How happiness is defined is different for every individual. Frugality and simplicity are just some of the common ways those on this forum help to accomplish their goal of being happy.

[scrnplyr]

course,

you bring up a great point - the more you talk to people about retiring early the more you realize that a good chunk of the population actually likes their jobs.  That doesn't mean that financial independence is not a huge goal of almost anyone who holds a regular job, however the conventional wisdom that a majority of Americans are stressed out zombies trudging to the sawmill every day is a bit antiquated. I too enjoy my work and have ample time to engage in creative and fun activities without chucking my job.  In fact after analyzing all my investments I noticed that my job actually pays me the highest dividends of my entire portfolio.  ; )

[FrenchGirl]

I'm also kind of new here, and I find this question very interesting and I'm looking forward to read people's answers.

(I know I'm not adding much at this point, but I did want to say I'm glad you're asking this question :) )

[Beric01]

I've only been reading this blog for a couple months, but I would argue I'm about halfway-mustachian. I do:

• Bike everywhere - I'm planning to sell my only car soon
• Make my own bag lunches
• live in a cheap apartment
• save over 50% of my income

However, I have to admit I still have plenty of work on.

• I still get fast food for dinner a couple times a week
• I buy a fair bit of junk food (it is cheap!) - I guess I justify it because I'm skinny
• I don't cook at all yet
• I have almost no practical skills, including no bike repair.

I got plenty to work on, but so far this site has helped me a lot - it's really helped me to make sense of all of my thoughts about life I've been having as of late.

[sheepstache]

Well put, Odput.

(I've always wanted to say that!  Since like 1 minute ago.)

[ketchup]

I live 23 miles from work. 

I've put almost 9,000 miles on my car in the past three months. 

We have three Australian Shepherd showdogs.

We eat wonderful, high-quality, delicious, nutritious fancy food.

We live in a fancy 3-bedroom 1400 square foot house.

But I bike to the train station when I can, and my train stops a quarter mile from work.

But I bought it for $1,000, it gets me an average combined 47MPG, I do all the work myself, and plan on owning it for years to come.

But my GF bathes them, grooms them, trains them, and we only outsource obvious things like shots.  We give them the best bang-for-buck food we can find.

But we cook it ourselves, creatively source our ingredients, and buy in bulk when it makes sense.

But we share it with my fake sister-in-law and brother-in-law and split rent and utilities four ways, making it next to nothing given our quality of life.

It's about doing what you want to do in life, but being as efficient about it as possible.  Not about pinching pennies, even though to some that's how it seems to some at first glance.  $2 spent on a case of bottled water is a total waste even though it's "cheap".  $2 spent on two avocados is actively improving your life.

I don't have cable, because I don't want cable.  I don't buy shitloads of new clothes, because I don't want them.  I don't finance a big fancy new car, because I don't want it.  I don't buy "snacks" because I don't want them.

It's about figuring out what you want, and what you don't want.  Figuring out what truly makes you happy, and what makes you less happy.  It's all about happiness when you really boil it all down.  MMM is a very happy man.

[Daisy]

I’m on the side of not being fond of cults. I have an aversion to the term “mustachian”.

MMM is a great role model and espouses a lot of great ideas. But really, is it anything all that new and different from what our grandparents (and parents too, in my case) did? Our grandparents were frugal by necessity and lack of alternatives (limited access to credit cards, for example), in addition to going through the Great Depression (again, in my case). Yet we do it by choice and now have the option to retire early if we so desire. And there are other people with the same message. I was applying a lot of these ideas way before I stumbled across the MMM blog. I’ve learned new ideas from MMM, and that’s great.

I understand his need to market his blog and make it a “sticky” site to stay on. “Sticky” a marketing term meaning having customers stay loyal to your product. So he can brand his version of frugality with "mustachian" and gain a loyal following to his site. I hope he continues as it is a very interesting way to spread the message of frugality and environmental consciousness.

But you don’t need to measure yourself by his standards. Take his great ideas and apply what works for you in your own situation.

I hope the MMM forum moderators don’t cancel my account after this. If so, it was nice knowing you all. ;-)

[Spartana]

I probably fall somewhat on the "extreme" end on some things (like Jacob on ERE more so then MMM), and the other direction on a few things. For example I retired early without a big stash, live on a small amount of money compared to MMM and most here. (approx. $700/month for basic living expenses - although my retirement income is double that but the rest gets saved mostly for things like travel, repairs, etc...). But on the other hand I just bought a new 4 cylinder SUV (face punch!). But I paid cash, had a 14 year old truck before that with 200K miles on it, will keep the SUV just as long, and will use it to camp in with my dog while I do full time travel soon. When I'm home it stays in the garage and I bike everywhere.

[MoneyCat]

I'm somewhere in the middle.  I live in a high-COL state, so my savings have been hovering just above 50% while I try to increase my income.  I ride a bicycle in town, but I commute the ten miles to work everyday, because it would be nearly impossible to get another job in my field any closer and we bought the house to be within bicycle riding distance of my wife's job.  I do drive a hybrid car, though, so that makes a difference.  I also started growing my own vegetables in my backyard garden and I'm trying to learn how to can them to save our produce for the winter.  I bake my own bread and make my own pizza dough with a bread machine I bought off Craigslist.

Gaining skills is really the key to Mustachianism.  I made it my New Year's Resolution to become more skilled, so I have been focusing on household stuff right now -- like how to cook better and how to grow my own food.  I'd like to learn to be more handy to save money on home repairs, so I guess that's the next step.  Mustachianism is a process and sometimes it takes a while to embrace all the aspects of it.

[pichirino]

To answer one of OP's questions.

Its possible to be pseudo-mustachian I believe if you are earning a ton of money and it's very easy to live off 10% of what you earn,you still get a shitload of luxuries which could not be frugal choices at all.Let alone mustachian ones.
Like is said in the millionaire next door,even the glittery rich live below their means,but not necesserily by doing anything frugal.

So to answer the subject question I am lucky to have a partner to which to split costs but I still consider myself more an ERE member then a mustachian since I live off my bonus' and holiday pays and only every few years go on relatively frugal vacations.So I save the complete salary itself.My savings rate is thus extreme.

I always tell myself I prefer a hard life over a stressful life so in order to reach a comfortable FI state im willing to sacrifice cars to walk in desert like temperatures for 30 minutes to get to work and willing to use all utilities and food in an extremely conscious way.

Im called cheap by those who dont see me spend but thats ok,as long as I reach that ultimate freedom any insult won't bother me.My partner however understands and is always given what is possible within my framework.

[bikebum]

I think the hardcore principles of Mustachianism apply to people who have hair-on-fire debt or are otherwise in serious financial crisis. Other than that I think the principles have to be guided by your own values. I think the core idea of Mustachianism is to question all the things you are paying for and asking yourself if those things are really necessary for your happiness. Some people don't want to achieve the kind of FI that MMM achieved for himself and that's their choice. I personally want a stash large enough to keep me from working a job I hate but I don't know that I will ever fully retire from working because I like it.

I kind of feel the same way about retirement. I don't want to stop working because I love what I do, but I want to be in control of my life. Self-employment would be ideal for me, or a highly flexible work arrangement (like contract jobs).

Me 3. My plan is to stash $200-250K at a young age and let it grow into my retirement money. Once I get that stash, I will work less and only have to cover expenses and not touch the stash. This should free me up to do mostly what I want, and I think the need to do some work will be a good thing for me.

[EricL]

I was already very frugal before I discovered MMM.  I'd had to resort to diverting half my pay to various debts, conditioned myself not to having that money, then rerouted it to various investments.  I was already nearly FIRE when I ran across Jacob's Early Retirement Extreme blog and then bought his book.  It was extraordinary not that it mentioned all the reasons and methods to achieve FIRE.  I'd read or heard almost all of them before.  And because it was written by a scientist it's a tad pedantic.  But it synthesized them into a coherent philosophy with over arching goals.  I loved it.  But Jacob's retirement philosophy is, well, extreme.  Fortunately he listed several sympathetic fellow travelers' blogs on his and one was MMM.  Being Mustachian is much more my speed. 

I embrace the MMM philosophies.  Talk of it being a "cult" to me comes from MMM's facetious invitation on the front page and whining spendthrifts who just don't get it.  (they're similar to Microsoft fan boys who deride Mac users as a cult.  As if wanting a computer that's futuristic and easy to use is absurd). It seems to me that Mustachianism is more like a martial art than Dianetics.  And like, say, Karate, you can find people across the whole religious, racial, and political spectrum practicing at different skill levels, enthusiasm, and goals.  If it ever did become cultish there are other blogs out there.

[former player]

I think there can be this wonderful feeling of "home" and "safe" when first finding Mustachianism: I've certainly had it.  Some people do drink the Kool-Aid for the first few weeks and months, follow the method precisely and proselytise to friends and family (with mixed success).  Others ease into it gently with progressive change.  And for all of us, the starting and end points are unique to our own situations.

I was already 3 years retired when I found Mustachianism.  For me, it hasn't changed the fundamentals and I don't think it will: I'm happily retired, never had debt except for mortgages, and live a relatively frugal life (brought up by parents who lived through the Great Depression and war time rationing).  I've made some adjustments to daily life (cutting my own hair has been a big win for me in many ways).  A bigger change is the stuff on investment: so far all my money has been in real estate and a pension, but when the current upgrade to my home is finished, I'll be investing tax free in low-cost index funds, for the first time ever.

Being mindful about what we do, learning new skills with money and not trashing the planet are Mustachianisms which are applicable to all of us in our own ways.

[Dee]

The true state of mustachianism includes (but is not necessarily limited to) conscious spending, meeting needs in ways that are less expensive than others (e.g. cooking yourself vs. going to restaurants), valuing effort, mindfulness,  and other attributes that lead to building skills over comfort and mindless luxury and entertainment and being happy and optimistic.

Where I fall on the spectrum... pretty low. I am saving more money than I was a few years ago but that is only partially attributable to mustachianism -- most 'frugality' measures I engage in are some that would have been available on any 'ole personal finance blog.

I am in it strictly for the early retirement. I often feel that depending on my salary is not significantly different from being an indentured servant. I would really like to free myself of that obligation.

Plus my partner is quite a bit older than me so I would like to enjoy our time together without having a job.

I haven't made any real fundamental changes to my spending yet, though my house is currently for sale, as I plan to move in with my boyfriend. That should be a big win and put me a bit further into the mustachian spectrum.

[sheepstache]

[. . .] When you're born, it's like you're entering from one darkness into another. You go through this darkness of life, there's this heavy feeling in your chest, a chain dragging around your neck, something crushing your spirit, like you're molded by calamities. When you're born, you don't choose your fate, and it continues through your life. Society chooses for you. [. . .]

Or as Wordsworth put it:

   Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
          The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
              Hath had elsewhere its setting,
                And cometh from afar:
              Not in entire forgetfulness,
              And not in utter nakedness,
          But trailing clouds of glory do we come
              From God, who is our home:
          Heaven lies about us in our infancy!
          Shades of the prison-house begin to close
              Upon the growing Boy,
          But He beholds the light, and whence it flows,
              He sees it in his joy;
          The Youth, who daily farther from the east
              Must travel, still is Nature's Priest,
              And by the vision splendid
              Is on his way attended;
          At length the Man perceives it die away,
          And fade into the light of common day.

[Zikoris]

We're the really crazy people who get used as examples of "too extreme".

We live in an expensive city but save 60% of our income, which is almost the exact average income for our city. We don't eat in restaurants or order any sort of delivery or takeout. We bring lunches to work 100% of the time, except for rare free employee lunches to celebrate something (even then, my boyfriend often brings his own food because he doesn't like what they serve). We don't have cable. We don't drink alcohol or coffee. We don't have a car, or even licenses. We hang everything to dry, even bed sheets, despite living in a 5th floor downtown studio apartment. We heavily utilize the library, and free entertainment options. I cut my boyfriend's hair myself, and don't pay for any sort of "beauty regime" (nails, skin, makeup, hair products) beyond my haircuts.

The strangest thing to people is that we don't buy things - clothes, decorations, gifts, anything really. Sometimes when I'm travelling I'll pick up an interesting dress shirt if I find something interesting (so far it's happened twice - Guatemala and Paris), otherwise for clothing we buy strictly socks and underwear. When my boyfriend buys video games, he gets them discounted and sells them when he's done, generally for a net zero or nearly zero cost (sometimes even a profit).

So yeah, we're pretty far at one end of the spectrum.

[Noodle]

I think it depends on whether you regard Mustachianism as a philosophy or as a set of practices. If you look at it as a philosophy, you re-examine your spending, think about true costs, consider the cost of debt, re-examine societal "givens" like a long commute or a big house, etc, etc, consider your own goals, constraints and the other people involved,  and then come up with a set of practices which likely overlap with but may not be identical to MMM's approach. If you look at it as a set of practices, you bike, skip eating out, cancel cable, learn to do your own home repairs, etc. (insert blog content here). Of course, both approaches have their risks. On the philosophy side, it is very, very easy to rationalize decisions which are not truly beneficial to your goals or in line with your overall thinking. On the practice side, you might for instance do damage to your marriage by insisting on giving up cable when your spouse loves watching the Yankees games.

If you looked at it from the "practice" side you could judge where people are on the spectrum. Wading into the philosophy side seems really dangerous.

[arebelspy]

I think it depends on whether you regard Mustachianism as a philosophy or as a set of practices.

Well said, and great distinction.

[aclarridge]

Wading into the philosophy side seems really dangerous.

In what way is it dangerous?

I see it as a philosophy, the most important parts being: learning to be happy with what you've got or less, and that becoming financially independent is a worthwhile and achievable goal.

[CommonCents]

I think it depends on whether you regard Mustachianism as a philosophy or as a set of practices. If you look at it as a philosophy, you re-examine your spending, think about true costs, consider the cost of debt, re-examine societal "givens" like a long commute or a big house, etc, etc, consider your own goals, constraints and the other people involved,  and then come up with a set of practices which likely overlap with but may not be identical to MMM's approach. If you look at it as a set of practices, you bike, skip eating out, cancel cable, learn to do your own home repairs, etc.

Good point.

From a philsophical perspective, I call myself a (non-hard core) mustachian because I've taken to thinking more holistically about how my spending aligns with my priorities.  Recently, I spent on money on change flight fees to attend a wedding we were invited late to (after booking flights for another wedding a few days later).  It was painful, yes, but DH said he thought I'd regret not going more in 10 years than spending the money on the flights & change flight fees then.  He was right.  So, we went and I "forgave" myself for this spending as being worthwhile.  I started to brainstorm a few more situations to relate here (spending on a baby shower and a friend's wedding, etc.), and I realized they all boil down to prioritizing relationships and people over things.


We already were reasonably frugal for our income, not spending what we could and couponing/buying on sale, but in other areas, we've cut back:
- No cable - thrilled to spend more time outside, talking, reading, etc.
- More homecooked meals - thrilled to eat better food.  I miss "lazy" meals out sometimes (really I just wish DH would cook for me sometimes rather than always out, me, or us), but I'm working on creating a repetorie of easy meals that take ~20 minutes to put together for the tougher nights.
- Bringing in more lunches - happy to eat better food and save money.
- Bought a reel mower to avoid spending on gas and get a little workout.  Fixed it when it broke
- Learning other DIY repairs around the house
- Switching highly used lights for LED (cut $35/month off the bills!)

I've also made some philosophical changes such as working to in a small way, declutter and focus more on minimalism so we bring less "crap" into the home.

We are most definitely not the best example of MMM, because we "only" save about 50-60% and we recently bought an expensive house.  I want to do more in the area of learning to DIY.  But we're really happy with where we are (love the house and what it offers us) and even think we need to loosen the reigns on some areas like traveling more.  Mostly the mind shift for me has been recognizing what matters to me - and recognizing I truly don't want the "things" so it's no hardship to not spend.  Everything I listed above has another reason to do beyond just saving money, from more time gained in my day, healthier food or lifestyle, more environmentally friendly, etc. 

[taekvideo]

I'm all in... way, way in :)
Of course I was most of the way in before I even heard of anyone doing it for real... learning about ERE/MMM made me really believe in it and commit completely.

[Cressida]

(really I just wish DH would cook for me sometimes rather than always out, me, or us)

Oh, don't even get me started.  :P  so frustrating.

[Moonwaves]

I think to figure out where you stand on the mustachian scale, you have to also take into account the flip side and figure out where you are on the complainypants scale. After an initial period of enthusiasm I totally petered out and am currently, to be perfectly honest, at maybe 3% mustachian/97% complainypants. I'm still doing most of the frugal things I've done for years (a lot of which came about because of my desire to try and live a less environmentally destructive/green/simple life) but when reading about other peoples 'staches, savings rates, investments etc., I'm mostly filled with whiny fine-for-them-but-I-can't-because... thoughts. I'm currently hitting a bit of a bad patch of depression though so hopefully that accounts for some of the complainypantsedness and once I get through it, I'll be able to re-focus on moving away from 97%. :)

[soccerluvof4]

For me I look at MMM as lifestyle / Cult/ Philosophy etc... but depending on where you are with it and what principles you apply or follow for yourself. I am also sure that mine will change as my income streams change so by reading on the forums what others do I find I am more knowledgeable and will be easier to adapt.  In the meantime as well I try alot of the things that fellow followers here suggest in which I find some make sense to me, some work and some not so much. While I am retired and my wife working (for our business) 25 hours a week I have alot of extra time while still receiving a good income to slowly move to where we want to be when were both retired completely in 2 years max.  We have a Mini Mc Mansion that we downsized 2.5 years ago from a bigger one. We have now decided we want to decide further but it will take as long as it takes. We looked at a house yesterday that was half the size and 1/3 in taxes but we want it to be the final home we live in so for now were spending more but we are looking to improve that situation for life. Since we own our home this too eventually will also add to our stash.  Secondly, we have learned to get rid of alot of things were not using. We were living the Jones's life and had several boats, snowmobiles, atvs etc...all of which have been sold.  I have had our vacation home on the FRICKING market for 3 summers now and that too we own outright so when it sells will add to our stash. So I guess for us these two moves we have identify make sense as Dumpster Diving not so much though when i read the book someone posted I cant pass by a dumpster now without looking at it differently. I have cut our shopping for a family of 6 to a third of what it was and clothe shopping for the most part is non-existent.  We spend a lot though on traveling for kids sports so thats some of the give and take. So i guess my point is while we continue to Max out our 401ks, HSA etc... and receive a good income we continue to    search for the things that make sense to us to save and work our way down to what we have established is where we want our cost of living to be in the next 2 years.  Everyone's path is different. I think the key is figuring out what path is right for you and one you can stay on.  Things have much improved and I feel we are conscientious since working on these things so it makes it all worthwhile.

[Tetsuya Hondo]

I'm a mini-Mustachian or a Mustachian Lite. A pencil thin stache?

I discovered the FIRE concept relatively recently and only after buying a biggish house in a spendy neighborhood and acquiring two un-Mustachian vehicles (oy, how I wish I had discovered the idea in college). But, since then we've been slowly whittling down our monthly expenditures and each step has motivated us to take it a step further. We're now on the verge of selling a spendy vehicle and replacing it with something more utilitarian and cheaper to maintain. That will be a big leap for me. Maybe we'll be full Mustachians at some point or maybe not. But, even if we don't we'll be in so much better shape financially than when we started.

[CommonCents]

(really I just wish DH would cook for me sometimes rather than always out, me, or us)

Oh, don't even get me started.  :P  so frustrating.

Hah, I could go on.  I can't even get him to stop asking that loaded question, "What's for dinner?" which I've told him I find annoying because it implies it's my responsibility to brainstorm and make.  A world where the food making was 50/50?  Impossible.  I'd even take him offering on a night here or there during the week to help, rather than me always having to ask him if I want help.  Yes, we we want to eat dinner *every night* so yes, it needs to be made (or procurred) *every night*!  Even my mom, a SAHM not a working gal, got sunday lunches off.  Ok rant over.

Then again the ex-bf that cooked was also a serial cheater, so there are worse problems.

[Zikoris]

(really I just wish DH would cook for me sometimes rather than always out, me, or us)

Oh, don't even get me started.  :P  so frustrating.

Hah, I could go on.  I can't even get him to stop asking that loaded question, "What's for dinner?" which I've told him I find annoying because it implies it's my responsibility to brainstorm and make.  A world where the food making was 50/50?  Impossible.  I'd even take him offering on a night here or there during the week to help, rather than me always having to ask him if I want help.  Yes, we we want to eat dinner *every night* so yes, it needs to be made (or procurred) *every night*!  Even my mom, a SAHM not a working gal, got sunday lunches off.  Ok rant over.

Then again the ex-bf that cooked was also a serial cheater, so there are worse problems.

Have you thought about making a weekly meal plan? My boyfriend and I make one up every weekend based on what we have and what's on sale, and it helps us avoid SO much stress and wasted time trying to decide what to make, as well as saving us money and reducing food waste.  It also gives us much more variety than we used to have, since we're "not allowed" to repeat meals more often than once a month. I do all our cooking, but it would be easy to assign cooking duties at the same time you make the meal plan if you wanted it to be more balanced.

[ZiziPB]

I am a pseudo-mustachian ;-) but I enjoy hanging out on these forums.  I've learned a lot since I joined a year ago, the most important thing being that it's OK to spend money on things that make me happy...

[CommonCents]

(really I just wish DH would cook for me sometimes rather than always out, me, or us)

Oh, don't even get me started.  :P  so frustrating.

Hah, I could go on.  I can't even get him to stop asking that loaded question, "What's for dinner?" which I've told him I find annoying because it implies it's my responsibility to brainstorm and make.  A world where the food making was 50/50?  Impossible.  I'd even take him offering on a night here or there during the week to help, rather than me always having to ask him if I want help.  Yes, we we want to eat dinner *every night* so yes, it needs to be made (or procurred) *every night*!  Even my mom, a SAHM not a working gal, got sunday lunches off.  Ok rant over.

Then again the ex-bf that cooked was also a serial cheater, so there are worse problems.

Have you thought about making a weekly meal plan? My boyfriend and I make one up every weekend based on what we have and what's on sale, and it helps us avoid SO much stress and wasted time trying to decide what to make, as well as saving us money and reducing food waste.  It also gives us much more variety than we used to have, since we're "not allowed" to repeat meals more often than once a month. I do all our cooking, but it would be easy to assign cooking duties at the same time you make the meal plan if you wanted it to be more balanced.

Thanks - this is the inherent conflict in trying to be mustachian.

DH simply *won't* spend the time to look through the flyer to plan meals around the sales.
DH simply *won't* cook anything on his own other than very simple meals: e.g. frozen pizza, pastrami sandwiches, once a salad, etc.  Generally these meals are unhealthier and packaged.

If I say I don't want to cook because I am tired and will he please do it, he offers to go out to pick up food.  Only reluctantly will he make the above simple meals. 

Of late, now that we have a grill, he will grill outside, but I still have to prep everything (e.g. trim and marinate the meat, wash, cut and put olive oil/lemon/salt & pepper/etc. on veggies).  I am working to add more grilled items into our menus so I get this help.

Although he is wonderful in many other respects, we do not have anywhere near a 50/50 partnership around the house.  It drives me batty but my options are 1) object and spend a lot of money to hire out chores like cleaning or eating out, 2) suck it up and do it myself.  For the most part, I do the latter, but sometimes I fall down and become mustachian-lite.  It's made me very determined to make sure that any kids we have are treated gender equally in terms of chores and learn to do everything - yardwork to cooking to cleaning.

[Zikoris]

Thanks - this is the inherent conflict in trying to be mustachian.

DH simply *won't* spend the time to look through the flyer to plan meals around the sales.
DH simply *won't* cook anything on his own other than very simple meals: e.g. frozen pizza, pastrami sandwiches, once a salad, etc.  Generally these meals are unhealthier and packaged.

Can you do the planning together, and just make sure there are a few days a week with things he's willing to make? I make our meal plans, but definitely get a lot of input from him. Our system is REALLY simple and quick. We have a master list of our favourite 25 meals, which get crossed out as we make them over the month. A quick skim of the flyers for any great deals, combined with what we have, and it's really easy to pick meals for the week out of the master list that match what we have on hand.

I think it's a lot easier to get someone to do their share when they've already agreed to, say, make their favourite flavour of pizza on August 15th, no shopping needed because the ingredients and supplies are already on hand, compared to having it sprung on them last minute.

I have days when I don't feel like cooking, but we also plan for that and make sure our Sunday and Monday night dinners produce ample extra leftovers to dip in to if needed (if we finish the week with excess leftovers, we just don't cook much on the weekend and finish everything up).

I guess it seems like a fixable problem to me. INTJ thinking and all.

[Cressida]

Thanks - this is the inherent conflict in trying to be mustachian.

DH simply *won't* spend the time to look through the flyer to plan meals around the sales.
DH simply *won't* cook anything on his own other than very simple meals: e.g. frozen pizza, pastrami sandwiches, once a salad, etc.  Generally these meals are unhealthier and packaged.

Can you do the planning together, and just make sure there are a few days a week with things he's willing to make? I make our meal plans, but definitely get a lot of input from him. Our system is REALLY simple and quick. We have a master list of our favourite 25 meals, which get crossed out as we make them over the month. A quick skim of the flyers for any great deals, combined with what we have, and it's really easy to pick meals for the week out of the master list that match what we have on hand.

I think it's a lot easier to get someone to do their share when they've already agreed to, say, make their favourite flavour of pizza on August 15th, no shopping needed because the ingredients and supplies are already on hand, compared to having it sprung on them last minute.

I have days when I don't feel like cooking, but we also plan for that and make sure our Sunday and Monday night dinners produce ample extra leftovers to dip in to if needed (if we finish the week with excess leftovers, we just don't cook much on the weekend and finish everything up).

I guess it seems like a fixable problem to me. INTJ thinking and all.

No. It's not. Did you read the post? "DH simply *won't*." If someone just flatly does not believe a chore is their responsibility, then even if you can get them to agree that in theory they should be helping out, in practice they'll still rely on you to remind them and do all the legwork to make it happen. In this situation, it's easier to just suck it up. Lesser of two evils.

By the way. Guys, don't do this. If you and your partner both work, you should share housework. Truly share it, not just do it when ordered to do so. It's the 21st century.

(And I don't now want to read dozens of posts about how "I'm a guy and I do housework." If you do, great. I don't need to hear from you.)

[Cassie]

I have been fairly frugal all my life but spend where my priorities are which have changed thru the years.  Now that I am older I do the things that bring me happiness: vacations, spending time with friends, cable, volunteering, working p.t., eating out 1x per week, etc.  I have cut out that things that don't matter: buying clothes, latest gadgets, etc.  I really think it is about living within your means & figuring out your priorities. If someone is constantly trying to figure out how to pay their bills, worried about getting laid-off, etc life would be way too stressful. 

[Cassie]

In  regard to the DH does not cook/do housework I am in the same boat. He does outside work but not in but still wants dinner.  I think (hope) this is an older generation problem. I solve this by having him grill sometimes and I keep easy things to throw in oven when I don't feel like cooking.  I was married to someone that did his fair share of household work but he was an ass-hat so I would take this situation anytime.  We are very compatible/happy except in this one area.

[Zikoris]

No. It's not. Did you read the post? "DH simply *won't*." If someone just flatly does not believe a chore is their responsibility, then even if you can get them to agree that in theory they should be helping out, in practice they'll still rely on you to remind them and do all the legwork to make it happen. In this situation, it's easier to just suck it up. Lesser of two evils.

I think for a lot of people, "I won't" can turn into "Hmm.. maybe I could..." depending on the circumstances. Making it REALLY easy for someone to do what you want them to can really help the process. Taking the mental work (What do I make? What ingredients do we have? Do we have a food processor?) and hassle (Oh crap, I'm missing critical ingredients and have to go the store, and where the heck is the colander?) out of making dinner can make a huge difference in someone's willingness to cook. And lots of praise.

[shelivesthedream]

Just a thought, but I wonder if the DH who *won't* cook on his own might like to cook with you. It's nicer to do something with someone else to chat to even if he's not really much good at helping, and he could do things like get things out of the cupboard, weigh ingredients or stir a pot without any 'special training'. You could later upgrade to chopping vegetables! (This is my favourite bit of making dinner and I don't understand why so many people don't like it.) Obviously you're still fundamentally doing all the cooking but you might find it feels like less of a chore if you're spending time together too, even if he's mostly just sitting around watching.

[Villanelle]

I'm partly in, with little desire to be much more in than I already am. 

I try to spend consciously, I abhor debt, and I believe that we are far more capable of controlling our situations than popular culture might have us believe.  I may not adopt many of MMM's specific practices, but the messages of control and empowerment resonate. 

DH and my priority is not ending our working years as soon as possible.  We know that's a choice.  It isn't in line with MMM's choices, but we acknowledge that we aren't forced into that position and that it isn't our only choice.  For us, working is worth it in order to get use some things that we enjoy now.

 

[iris lily]

Whether calling it Mustachean or Your Money or Your Life mindset, it's all about identifying your core values and spending appropriately to support them.

This assumes that humans understand, once self actualized, that cheap crap from China/shopping at malls/spending to impress and/or to support one's inflated ego does not make a deeply satisfying life.

So first, I think you have to reach the self actualized stage. Ideally, the rest falls from there. Living and spending mindfully is the goal.

Many people won't reach that goal because living an authentic life, being true to yourself, requires too much introspection and connection with humans and nature, plus a bit of self discipline and frankly, a fair amount of luck to be born with skills and health and ability to achieve all of that.

[iris lily]

Where I am in this? Decades into it. I am a senior citizen and have been at it for a long time. Not surprisingly, I've got a nice stache. Sure, it could be bigger. and I could be retired earlier. But DH and I, DINKS, have always lived on one income so that if a job become untenable for one of us, it's no sweat to up and leave it.

[iris lily]

Wading into the philosophy side seems really dangerous.

In what way is it dangerous?

I see it as a philosophy, the most important parts being: learning to be happy with what you've got or less, and that becoming financially independent is a worthwhile and achievable goal.

It's the philosophy that makes it interesting. Otherwise, it's just a set of frugal practices that are lists, like a recipe or a list of actions. That bores me.

[iris lily]

In  regard to the DH does not cook/do housework I am in the same boat. He does outside work but not in but still wants dinner.  I think (hope) this is an older generation problem. I solve this by having him grill sometimes and I keep easy things to throw in oven when I don't feel like cooking.  I was married to someone that did his fair share of household work but he was an ass-hat so I would take this situation anytime.  We are very compatible/happy except in this one area.

my DH is utterly domestic: he cooks, bakes, gardens and preserves it in jams and canning and freezing, makes arrangements for meats from the family farm.

He does expect me to make dinner and clean up. Since he makes his breakfasts and lunches (no fast food or prepared foods for him, EVER!) I htink that's reasonable.

He will tun 60 next month.

[frompa]

Iris Lily, thanks for mentioning Your Money or Your Life, because it's good to remind people that MMM didn't invent the notion of living low on the food chain.  This notion has been around forever.... I remember my first exposure to it on first reading Thoreau when I was fifteen years old.  And Thoreau admittedly relied on far earlier simple livers (doesn't that sound disgustingly anatomical??) who were of a philosophical bent.  The wonder to me is that so many people think MMM is some totally new, cult idea. 

[Jessa]

Is it possible to be pseudo-mustachian, or is that just a smokescreen? Is basic frugality enough or are people lying to themselves when they adopt some of the MMM principles but not others?

I am also pretty new at this...probably knee deep working toward waist deep... but I think adopting any principles is a step in the right direction. I'm starting at 34, right now I think it's feasible that I could retire at 50. Three months ago I would've told you that I'd be working until I died, but MMM really changed my perspective on things. I'm still working on getting SO on board, but we've cancelled cable and I've started biking to work and paying more attention to my grocery trips and getting better value for my money. I think our electric bill is probably too high, SO has a Ford F350 that just GUZZLES gas, and SO has nothing prepared on his own for retirement. Does that make me a failure, that we ran 3 loads of laundry through the dryer today? Or a success that we're saving $60/month and my gas budget is now half of what it was? I think we're doing some of the right things, definitely more of them than we were before I heard of this blog. Could I retire at 45 if I buckled down more? Yeah, probably. Maybe I still will. But I also think small, slow, sustainable changes work better for me than trying to totally overhaul my life overnight. So I'll call myself a Jr Mustachian and be proud of what I've done so far :)

[iris lily]

Iris Lily, thanks for mentioning Your Money or Your Life, because it's good to remind people that MMM didn't invent the notion of living low on the food chain.  This notion has been around forever.... I remember my first exposure to it on first reading Thoreau when I was fifteen years old.  And Thoreau admittedly relied on far earlier simple livers (doesn't that sound disgustingly anatomical??) who were of a philosophical bent.  The wonder to me is that so many people think MMM is some totally new, cult idea.

Evey generation has to discover something and make it their own.