What is the hurry to RE?

[MMM365]

I've been searching for this kind of thread, so please forgive me if it's been discussed prior. 

For those who do not like their jobs or for those who feel that they are not accomplishing anything in their work, the drive to RE is completely understandable.  Also, the desire to get out from under the out-of-one's-control schedule and not-my-timing deadlines is completely understandable.

However, FI aside, I'm wondering what is the reason for retiring early?  If one's work is meaningful both professionally and personally, and if the benefit to society and humanity from one's work is substantial, I'm wondering what has been the tipping point for those who have been in similar situations and have retired early?  Have you found another avenue in which to use the gifts of your time, effort, and skills? 

I love the MMM philosophy of living simply, not being fleeced into buying junk that one doesn't need, and questioning the expensive lifestyle goals of so many people.  However, I'm wondering, tied in with all of these ideas, is there room to be passionate about one's work and contribution to society? 

[arebelspy]

I was a teacher.  I loved my job.  I felt like I was making a meaningful difference in the lives of kids.  Yet I still ER'd by 30.

Why?

Because my life is so short, and there's so much I want to do.  By the time I quit, I had been doing that for nearly a decade.  For me, a decade is long enough to do anything, even something you love.  To think about doing that for two, three, four decades, and where that would limit me in terms of doing other things, wasn't a trade off I was willing to make.

A few links to help illustrate visually the length of your life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOksW_NabEk
http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/life-weeks.html
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/12/the-tail-end.html

At least watch the first one.

If your job brings you meaning and satisfaction and you enjoy it, and there's nothing else you can think of for how you want to spend your short time (your jellybeans, if you watched that first link), great.  Keep working!  But if you've done it for years, and years, at some point you might decide there's other things you want to spend time on (in ways that are limited by the job), and other contributions you can make (that, again, aren't possible with the job).

And that's when you quit.  Even if you loved your job, it can be time to move on, satisfied with what you've accomplished.

That was it, for me at least.

[deborah]

It was a dreadful couple of months. There were fires. The family home was burnt down. The church where my parents married was burnt down. Several cousins' homes were burnt down. My youngest cousin (in the final year of high school) lost two of his best mates to the fires. I was working in a different city and couldn't get there to be a help. Then two weeks later, my best friend (also in those parts) was told she had pancreatic cancer and three to six months to live. She died six weeks later.

Trying to juggle work and caring just didn't work. It wasn't the first major disaster where I needed to be other places than work, but the whole situation was just too much.

Since I retired, my father got cancer and I needed to visit them (7.5 hours drive away) every two weeks for two years. No way would I have been able to do that and work as well.

Contributing to society doesn't just mean work.

[MrsDinero]

For us it was the realization that one day we are going to be too old and possibly sick to enjoy retirement the way we envisioned.   

This hit us hard when both of our parents retired and suffered a stroke, cancer diagnosis, autoimmune disease, and other health issues.  While we know these are not limited to old age, we want to enjoy our life and each other while we are healthy and able.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Jupiter]

For me it's not about "retiring", it's about creating for the purpose of creating, not money. Everything I do is fueled by money. I have 55,000 subscribers emailing me and begging me for more Youtube content but no, I can't make them videos often at all (something I don't mind and enjoy due to the feedback I receive) as it earns poor money ($100 per week AUD). So instead I work 55 hours per week at a job I dislike and 20+ hours on side jobs I also prefer not to do rather than what I do want to do just so I can pay off my mortgage then save for investment properties. I'm very mustachian, no car, no loans (ever, except for mortgage) no family, (no kids) ect (If I were rich enough not to work I'd make lots of Youtube videos, develop more free software ect...).

So it's NOT about retiring, It's about doing work I care about and anything that pays me by the hour or involves having a boss ain't worth working for. I want to work for me and my fans. Note, I'm only 21 (high school drop out but earned 174K over 3.5 years through my own hands so don't think "What have you been doing for the last few decades?". Once I reach 1 million I'll FIRE and follow my dreams, until then... 826K more to save (9 more years I estimate) then I can live the good life :)

I must admit, it will be extremely satisfying to FIRE after putting in all the hard work. You have to live through the worst parts of life (first 30 years) to really enjoy the good parts afterwards. Until you reach 60... then health problems ruin everything. Thus why, you should do what you love before it's too late.

[2Birds1Stone]

Because there are WAAYYY better things to exchange my time for than employment. $$ is just a means to an end.

[Fishindude]

Good thread and I see nothing wrong with working a job till the day you die, if you enjoy it and are contributing.

I have seen a fair number of old business owner and managers that didn't know when to step aside.  They want to remain boss and retain control forever, and eventually it starts costing them young talent who don't see an opportunity to get into a leadership position.

[GuitarStv]

As much as I bitch about it, my job is far from terrible.  The thing is . . . every once in a while it's snowing, traffic is a mess, and I want to stay home with my kid to sleep in, play in the snow, and watch a movie rather than go to work.

Sometimes I'm feeling creative and energized late at night, and have to crush all that down and stop writing music to go to bed because I've got to get up the next morning.  8.5 hrs of work plus the extra commute time eats up a tremendous amount of free time, so it's difficult to do things that I'd like to . . . like renovations in the house, like more relaxation time, spending more time with my family and friends, going on long bike rides, etc.

When you're forced to do anything to someone else's schedule, no matter how pleasant the job is . . . it eventually starts to chafe a little bit.

[MMM365]

I was a teacher.  I loved my job.  I felt like I was making a meaningful difference in the lives of kids.  Yet I still ER'd by 30.

Why?

Because my life is so short, and there's so much I want to do.  By the time I quit, I had been doing that for nearly a decade.  For me, a decade is long enough to do anything, even something you love.  To think about doing that for two, three, four decades, and where that would limit me in terms of doing other things, wasn't a trade off I was willing to make.

A few links to help illustrate visually the length of your life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOksW_NabEk
http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/life-weeks.html
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/12/the-tail-end.html

At least watch the first one.

If your job brings you meaning and satisfaction and you enjoy it, and there's nothing else you can think of for how you want to spend your short time (your jellybeans, if you watched that first link), great.  Keep working!  But if you've done it for years, and years, at some point you might decide there's other things you want to spend time on (in ways that are limited by the job), and other contributions you can make (that, again, aren't possible with the job).

And that's when you quit.  Even if you loved your job, it can be time to move on, satisfied with what you've accomplished.

That was it, for me at least.

I appreciate your thoughts.  I am just curious at what is the tipping point for when/why people make the decisions to RE. 

I continue to love what I do, my job contributes to society, and I love the fact that the money I make also allows me to contribute financially to charities around the world.  As well, the flexibility in my work allows me to be meaningfully present in the lives of my family and also to contribute time to local causes.  Of course, I have some headaches at work and life is very full, but I'm trying to be intentional about what will be the tipping point to move to part time work or not at all.

I know my situation is very fortunate, but I enjoy hearing other's stories.

[matchewed]

Because my job doesn't allow hookers and blow.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That being said not all jobs are flexible or pay well...etc. I would argue that there are very few jobs that offer that right amount of freedom for people to think they are free from their jobs, whether it is one where the job fits in perfectly with your lifestyle or some other combination of values.

It's fine to keep working if you really derive value from it. But if you don't then don't.

Of course, I have some headaches at work and life is very full, but I'm trying to be intentional about what will be the tipping point to move to part time work or not at all.

Tipping point... what do you mean by that? Do you mean reason? Is there a current debate in your head about RE? Are you looking for an excuse to FIRE? Or an excuse to stay?

[GuitarStv]

The beauty of becoming FI as soon as possible is that you don't have to retire early . . . but the option is available if/when it becomes an important issue to you (circumstances change, jobs change, people change).

[arebelspy]

I continue to love what I do, my job contributes to society, and I love the fact that the money I make also allows me to contribute financially to charities around the world.  As well, the flexibility in my work allows me to be meaningfully present in the lives of my family and also to contribute time to local causes.  Of course, I have some headaches at work and life is very full, but I'm trying to be intentional about what will be the tipping point to move to part time work or not at all.

Do you have a reason to FIRE?

If not, why would you?  If yes... there's your reason why.  :)

[nereo]

Good thread

We've been firmly in the camp of people who genuinely like our jobs (most of the time) and plan on working in our fields for decades.  So why FI/RE?  A few reasons:
1) we've realized we don't need much to be really happy and healthy.  What I yearn for each day is more time, not more money.

2) Security.  We don't ever want to need both of us to have jobs to survive, and want to be ok should we both become unemployed.  The last ~7 years of budget cuts, furloughs and project cancelations have really highlighted why FI and financial security should be a priority for us.

3) Kids (possibly).  If we have kids we want to be able to spend time with them as they grow.  In our fields it's pretty easy to take entire semesters or or even a year off if you are ok with not being paid.  Being FI means we could do just that, and alternate who works and who is the caregiver.

4) Options.  There are lots of job projects I'd like to do that don't pay very much.  I want to make my decisions based on what I want, not on a need for chasing more money.  This is especially true in our fields (scientific research). 

5) To do non-work things with my life.  Look, I'll likely continue working in my field for the next 4 decades, but I have so many projects and other things I want to spend time on.

6) Choosing our location.  The places we really want to live (New England, eastern Canada, Alaska) tend to have jobs in our field that pay far less than many other spots that are less desirable to us.  Having some level of FI means we can jobs that pay less and still have more spending power than most of our debt-laden peers.  I never want to live somewhere I don't really like just for a high paycheck.

Those are a few of our reasons.

[StetsTerhune]

I continue to love what I do, my job contributes to society, and I love the fact that the money I make also allows me to contribute financially to charities around the world.  As well, the flexibility in my work allows me to be meaningfully present in the lives of my family and also to contribute time to local causes.  Of course, I have some headaches at work and life is very full, but I'm trying to be intentional about what will be the tipping point to move to part time work or not at all.

For me it's simple, being FI leaves me with a lot more options in life than most people. Most people can do their current job, or look for some other job that they're qualified for and supports their lifestyle. I can do those those things too, or I can do a job that doesn't support my lifestyle. Or I volunteer for charity. Or I can ski 160 days a year and float down a river drinking beer the other 205

Your job sounds like it works well for you. If you love it, and you'd rather do that than any of the other possibilities that are open to you, then keep working. If there's something else you want to do, RE and do that. I don't think it takes a tipping point to do that. It just takes a thing you want to do more than work, and not needing the money from work anymore.

[arebelspy]

I don't think it takes a tipping point to do that. It just takes a thing you want to do more than work, and not needing the money from work anymore.

I think that last sentence you said IS the tipping point.  :)

If you don't have enough money, or you do, but have nothing else you'd rather do, keep working.  If you have enough, and something else you'd rather do (due to it's value to you, to society, whatever, however you evaluate that), that's the point at which you decide to walk away (then you just have to deal with societal and emotional hangups).

That sentence though perfectly describes it, to me.

[Smokystache]

...
A few links to help illustrate visually the length of your life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOksW_NabEk
http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/life-weeks.html
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/12/the-tail-end.html

At least watch the first one.

...

Well crap. It's posts and videos like this that force me to think critically about my life and spur me to action as opposed to staying on "auto-pilot".  Like I've got the time or energy to do that. =).

Seriously though - I find videos like that really compelling. Time to get serious about a plan and some goals.

[arebelspy]

...
A few links to help illustrate visually the length of your life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOksW_NabEk
http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/life-weeks.html
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/12/the-tail-end.html

At least watch the first one.

...

Well crap. It's posts and videos like this that force me to think critically about my life and spur me to action as opposed to staying on "auto-pilot".  Like I've got the time or energy to do that. =).

Seriously though - I find videos like that really compelling. Time to get serious about a plan and some goals.

Glad you enjoyed.

When I just watched that (I rewatched it after your comment, I didn't when I posted it, but I've seen it probably 5 or 6 times before), the thing I took away is how, by transferring jellybeans from the "work" and "tv" and "commuting" (and a few other) categories, I can add to that extra time at the end.  That's why ER.  That's why less time on *.

Cause I have so little of it.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I have the opposite reaction when confronted with the 'I'm 43 and each year is precious' argument.  First off, my family is blessed (or cursed) with longevity.  I won't apply for SS until the latest, highest paying age (currently 70…).  Second, if every year is precious, I should also take into account my wife and kids.  I improve their lives with my work in many ways.  I enjoy my work and have a lot of autonomy, so it doesn't interfere with my health, friendships, or parenting.  It prevents me from fully enjoying our FI a bit - less freedom to travel - but I guess I just don't feel that I'm at a tipping point.  I really tried to ER and am still open to it if I do hit a tipping point, but life is currently pretty darn good.

[crazylemon]

For me, power and optionality.

I have to work for a monopolistic organisation to stay in my profession in this country where 'training' (career progression) requires hoop jumping and not sticking your neck out to an absurd level. Working extra and 'professionalism' are deliberately merged such that complaining about having to work late continuously is ignored and with current reforms will be even easier to do so.
Going part time other than by given birth prior to completion of training is also near impossible. If you want to remain in training.

I want to be able to say no and dictate my own terms of employment. If they don't want me I just walk away, and fill odd rota gaps as I choose.

I actually by an large enjoy my job but not the forced nights and weekends. they can have me in sort of office hours once I FIRE occasionally. Don't want that then I can find plenty else to do.

[MMM365]

Great discussion; I appreciate everyone's thoughts. 

Clearly FI is a great goal to have and gives choices compared to when not FI.  However, RE is not as clearly simple a goal for me. 

I love the jellybean video, but also see how cutting back on TV watching, FB watching, and lounging around will help me reclaim more jellybeans.  But to what end?  The goal, ultimately, from the jellybean video, and MMM, is to be intentional about living a life that is meaningful (however each of us define meaningful), and not necessarily living based on a presumed lifestyle dictated by the masses.  If the jellybeans for work are enjoyable, meaningful jellybeans, certainly we should continue to reclaim those. 

My only wish is to travel more, although I already travel quite a bit.  I don't see that RE, allowing me to play golf every day, and travel every month would bring more happiness and fulfillment than where I am now. 

[MMM365]

I continue to love what I do, my job contributes to society, and I love the fact that the money I make also allows me to contribute financially to charities around the world.  As well, the flexibility in my work allows me to be meaningfully present in the lives of my family and also to contribute time to local causes.  Of course, I have some headaches at work and life is very full, but I'm trying to be intentional about what will be the tipping point to move to part time work or not at all.

Do you have a reason to FIRE?

If not, why would you?  If yes... there's your reason why.  :)

And to Arebelspy, if I were to RE, my initial consider on what to do with my time, would be to become a teacher in an inner city school! 

[mamagoose]

I've been searching for this kind of thread, so please forgive me if it's been discussed prior. 

For those who do not like their jobs or for those who feel that they are not accomplishing anything in their work, the drive to RE is completely understandable.  Also, the desire to get out from under the out-of-one's-control schedule and not-my-timing deadlines is completely understandable.

However, FI aside, I'm wondering what is the reason for retiring early?  If one's work is meaningful both professionally and personally, and if the benefit to society and humanity from one's work is substantial, I'm wondering what has been the tipping point for those who have been in similar situations and have retired early?  Have you found another avenue in which to use the gifts of your time, effort, and skills? 

I love the MMM philosophy of living simply, not being fleeced into buying junk that one doesn't need, and questioning the expensive lifestyle goals of so many people.  However, I'm wondering, tied in with all of these ideas, is there room to be passionate about one's work and contribution to society?

To raise our daughter and travel the world as a family without being tied to a desk. Maybe even to have another kid.

[Tetsuya Hondo]

I'm not in a hurry to RE; but, I am in a hurry to have the means to RE. Like others, I want the flexibility and options that come with FI. For now, I like what I do, but will I still enjoy it down the road? If not, I want a Plan B.

[Schaefer Light]

When you're forced to do anything to someone else's schedule, no matter how pleasant the job is . . . it eventually starts to chafe a little bit.

Damn right it does.  That's it in a nutshell for me.  I want as much freedom as possible.  Freedom to do what I want, when I want, where I want.  Until I have that, I'll keep busting my ass to get it.

[matchewed]

If the jellybeans for work are enjoyable, meaningful jellybeans, certainly we should continue to reclaim those. 

Only insofar as they are more valuable than the alternative(s).

[Schaefer Light]

Regarding the passage of time, if you want to see something really depressing then check out the link below.

http://www.maximiliankiener.com/digitalprojects/time/

If this doesn't make the case for retiring even earlier (or at least having the ability to do what you want at a younger age), then I don't know what does.

[Chris22]

When you're forced to do anything to someone else's schedule, no matter how pleasant the job is . . . it eventually starts to chafe a little bit.

It's funny, because I both understand this and laugh at it at the same time.  I was in the military after college, and they owned my ass.  Vacations/leave could be cancelled at a whim, working hours were extended for no reason all the time, someone fucks up and the whole crew gets punished with liberty restrictions, etc.  I hated it.  And I was an officer, so I had a lot of leeway compared to most enlisted.

Now, I have an office job at an F100.  I more or less set my own working hours.  Leave early, stay late, call in for an early/late meeting from home, take off for the lake early and work remotely for a day, whatever.  And when I walk out of the building, my ass is my own except for sending the occasional email.  If I get a speeding ticket on the way home the only person who cares is my wife IF I chose to tell her, unlike the military where it's a giant incident. 

So the amount of freedom I feel is incredible after the stifling environment in the military.  When I read some of the "why I FIREd/why I can't wait to FIRE" threads, the petty reasons people give are often absurd to me.  But I suppose if you've never experienced military life, and have a meek attitude where running away is easier than standing up for yourself a little, I can see the chafe. 

[HenryDavid]

I always felt in a hurry to have as much freedom and as many choices as possible.
Doesn't mean I have to make one specific choice--as in RE--but that I have the option to do it, when it's the right time.

Work done out of necessity feels VERY different from work done by CHOICE.

As soon as I had any kind of financial/material independence, I felt differently about what work I did, how I chose it, who I worked with. . . this changes your life. In a good way. So that's the "hurry."

(I'd add that once I got clear in my mind about what added value to my own life, I didn't need to hurry, or try very hard. The ducks got into a row all by themselves pretty quickly.)

[elaine amj]

I want to sleep in every morning :)

At the end of the day, I want freedom and autonomy. My job is pretty sweet, but I would prefer that my time is my own. Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind down the road - when I was a SAHM, I hated housekeeping so much that I felt I would be perfectly willing to work at any other menial job to make enough to pay a housekeeper. I'm older now and still dislike housekeeping, but not as badly as I used to. Now it's just something that has to be done.

I've also started wondering if being home during the teen years is beneficial for my kids. I was home when they were little and started working throughout the school years. Now they are teens and some stuff I have been reading have been pointing out that being available during the coming years could be very beneficial. (that would be my excuse anyway LOL)

In addition, my stepfather passed away a year ago. I know my mother is lonely and it would be wonderful to spend more time with her. Right now, my vacation time is limited.

[Schaefer Light]

When you're forced to do anything to someone else's schedule, no matter how pleasant the job is . . . it eventually starts to chafe a little bit.

But I suppose if you've never experienced military life, and have a meek attitude where running away is easier than standing up for yourself a little, I can see the chafe.

How is a person supposed to stand up for himself when his work hours, location, etc., are set and there's no changing them?  And I don't see it as running away...I see it as saying f you, work ;).

[RonMcCord]

For me it's the appeal of having control over my life.  I know family and coworkers who barely make ends meet and there's a feeling of defeatism to just blindly going through and deciding if you can't predict random money demands, then you might as well not even bother trying to budget or save.  I also have no idea what the future will be like, if we hit another recession or if an industry gets outsourced, etc. I'd feel safer trying to save what I can in 10-15 years than 40. 

[Chris22]

When you're forced to do anything to someone else's schedule, no matter how pleasant the job is . . . it eventually starts to chafe a little bit.

But I suppose if you've never experienced military life, and have a meek attitude where running away is easier than standing up for yourself a little, I can see the chafe.

How is a person supposed to stand up for himself when his work hours, location, etc., are set and there's no changing them?  And I don't see it as running away...I see it as saying f you, work ;).

I'm thinking of things like this.  Company asks people to volunteer on a weekend to get a new fulfillment center going:

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/good-reason-to-have-fu-money/

To me, I either decide, you know what, it's good for my career and I will do it, or it's the company looking to exploit me, and I don't.  I don't think "OMG I better quit ASAP!" 

[arebelspy]

I continue to love what I do, my job contributes to society, and I love the fact that the money I make also allows me to contribute financially to charities around the world.  As well, the flexibility in my work allows me to be meaningfully present in the lives of my family and also to contribute time to local causes.  Of course, I have some headaches at work and life is very full, but I'm trying to be intentional about what will be the tipping point to move to part time work or not at all.

Do you have a reason to FIRE?

If not, why would you?  If yes... there's your reason why.  :)

And to Arebelspy, if I were to RE, my initial consider on what to do with my time, would be to become a teacher in an inner city school!

That's awesome!  I hope you hit enough money, and stop finding meaning in your job, cause I know you'll be able to make a big difference there!  ;)

[fattest_foot]

Say you win that $700 million powerball tomorrow, do you still go to your job? Assume now that money is basically not a concern, is your job something you would do for free?

For most people, the answer is absolutely not. That's why I would retire early. My job is where I trade my time to money, because I have to. The minute I don't have to anymore is the minute I leave.

[StetsTerhune]

When you're forced to do anything to someone else's schedule, no matter how pleasant the job is . . . it eventually starts to chafe a little bit.

But I suppose if you've never experienced military life, and have a meek attitude where running away is easier than standing up for yourself a little, I can see the chafe.

How is a person supposed to stand up for himself when his work hours, location, etc., are set and there's no changing them?  And I don't see it as running away...I see it as saying f you, work ;).

I'm thinking of things like this.  Company asks people to volunteer on a weekend to get a new fulfillment center going:

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/good-reason-to-have-fu-money/

To me, I either decide, you know what, it's good for my career and I will do it, or it's the company looking to exploit me, and I don't.  I don't think "OMG I better quit ASAP!"

Ok, but you've just picked one random example that you can say no to, likely without any disastrous consequences.

I'll pick another random example: My company requires that I "work" ~220 days per year. I can't just "stand up for myself" and work 180 days a year. I would be fired. I've scratched, clawed, and threatened my way into an unbelievable, unprecedented (as far as I can tell at my company) amount of freedom and flexibility for my job. But those bastards still require that I do work for them. And you know what, I'd rather not do that sometimes.

[arebelspy]

Say you win that $700 million powerball tomorrow, do you still go to your job? Assume now that money is basically not a concern, is your job something you would do for free?

For most people, the answer is absolutely not. That's why I would retire early. My job is where I trade my time to money, because I have to. The minute I don't have to anymore is the minute I leave.

That's the interesting question to me: if your job said "we can't pay you anymore, but we'd love for you to come volunteer for 40 hours/week," would you say yes?  Is that where you'd find the most benefit for your time?  If you're essentially volunteering, is there no where else that you could make a larger impact?  Nothing else you'd be happier doing?

If that's the case, great, keep working past FI.

But I'm of the opinion many people working past FI are just convincing themselves they love their job so much because they're scared, and still need to accumulate more and more.

If the job stopped paying them and asked them to volunteer, they'd be out of there in a flash (to someone who did pay).  It's the rare person who works not only for the love of it, but because they can't think of a single better thing to do (and sometimes that's sad).

[Chris22]

Say you win that $700 million powerball tomorrow, do you still go to your job? Assume now that money is basically not a concern, is your job something you would do for free?

For most people, the answer is absolutely not. That's why I would retire early. My job is where I trade my time to money, because I have to. The minute I don't have to anymore is the minute I leave.

Yeah, but for some people that's a silly question.  I'll tell you what I'd do with $700M (or really, $200M after everything); buy a beach house and a few cool sports cars and maybe a boat and spend a lot of time tinkering with them, and traveling.

Let me tell you all of my hobbies that I could do with a yearly income of $25k or $30k:  maybe one cheapo sports car, and a canoe. 

One of those scenarios makes sense to stop going to work for.  The other one really doesn't, for me. 

[BarkyardBQ]

My fondest memories as a kid were traveling in an RV, hiking, camping etc with my family during summer breaks. My dad was a teacher (summers off), my mom self employed. She often had to cut her time on trips short or chose the ones she went on. My wife spent most of her childhood living in different countries. RE to us is about spending time with our future kids and family and being able to dictate when and how long we do it instead of trying to decide how to spend the ~20 days a year we get in vacation. We will still work or give back in some way but we don't want jobs limiting our time.

As somehow else stated above, there are jobs we would love to do either part time or full time that don't offer much pay. Being FI would mean not worrying about that income but doing what we love, or doing it wherever we can find the work we want.

[arebelspy]

When you're forced to do anything to someone else's schedule, no matter how pleasant the job is . . . it eventually starts to chafe a little bit.

It's funny, because I both understand this and laugh at it at the same time.  I was in the military after college, and they owned my ass.  Vacations/leave could be cancelled at a whim, working hours were extended for no reason all the time, someone fucks up and the whole crew gets punished with liberty restrictions, etc.  I hated it.  And I was an officer, so I had a lot of leeway compared to most enlisted.

...

So the amount of freedom I feel is incredible after the stifling environment in the military.  When I read some of the "why I FIREd/why I can't wait to FIRE" threads, the petty reasons people give are often absurd to me.  But I suppose if you've never experienced military life, and have a meek attitude where running away is easier than standing up for yourself a little, I can see the chafe.

I would think you would understand it better than most then.

Some companies are like you describe in the first paragraph.  They dictate what hours you are there.  They cancel your vacation on a whim. Etc.

You assume people are "weak" but you of all people should be able to understand what it's like to work under very rigid conditions and why some, even if they enjoy the work itself, might not want to do it anymore (even under another employer who might be a little more flexible).

[AZDude]

I think there is a middle ground between the normal 40+ hour workweek and the ER 0 hour week. Retirement is a sliding scale. I don't think of it as a cliff, where you drop all the way from full time to nothing. I see it more as a gradual descent with plenty of time to figure things out along the way.

[arebelspy]

Say you win that $700 million powerball tomorrow, do you still go to your job? Assume now that money is basically not a concern, is your job something you would do for free?

For most people, the answer is absolutely not. That's why I would retire early. My job is where I trade my time to money, because I have to. The minute I don't have to anymore is the minute I leave.

Yeah, but for some people that's a silly question.  I'll tell you what I'd do with $700M (or really, $200M after everything); buy a beach house and a few cool sports cars and maybe a boat and spend a lot of time tinkering with them, and traveling.

Let me tell you all of my hobbies that I could do with a yearly income of $25k or $30k:  maybe one cheapo sports car, and a canoe. 

One of those scenarios makes sense to stop going to work for.  The other one really doesn't, for me.

Ah, you need to work on the concept of "enough."

700MM and 1MM are the same, to my personal spending (all it would change is freeing some of my family and friends as well).

If you can understand someone leaving with 700MM, because they're happy with that, why can't you understand that for someone is happy with what they have (whatever that amount is), why keep going to work?

If you wouldn't work for free, once you're FI, you should quit. Because you don't need the money, so you're trading your time for something you don't need.  That's ridiculous.

[Chris22]

When you're forced to do anything to someone else's schedule, no matter how pleasant the job is . . . it eventually starts to chafe a little bit.

It's funny, because I both understand this and laugh at it at the same time.  I was in the military after college, and they owned my ass.  Vacations/leave could be cancelled at a whim, working hours were extended for no reason all the time, someone fucks up and the whole crew gets punished with liberty restrictions, etc.  I hated it.  And I was an officer, so I had a lot of leeway compared to most enlisted.

...

So the amount of freedom I feel is incredible after the stifling environment in the military.  When I read some of the "why I FIREd/why I can't wait to FIRE" threads, the petty reasons people give are often absurd to me.  But I suppose if you've never experienced military life, and have a meek attitude where running away is easier than standing up for yourself a little, I can see the chafe.

I would think you would understand it better than most then.

Some companies are like you describe in the first paragraph.  They dictate what hours you are there.  They cancel your vacation on a whim. Etc.

You assume people are "weak" but you of all people should be able to understand what it's like to work under very rigid conditions and why some, even if they enjoy the work itself, might not want to do it anymore (even under another employer who might be a little more flexible).

I don't assume all people are weak, but given the strong INTJ-ness of the forum, and the many many many passive-aggressive "something happened at work today and instead of doing something about it I'm going to go home and stew and post on the internet and fantasize about quitting when they need me most" posts on here...

[arebelspy]

I think there is a middle ground between the normal 40+ hour workweek and the ER 0 hour week. Retirement is a sliding scale. I don't think of it as a cliff, where you drop all the way from full time to nothing. I see it more as a gradual descent with plenty of time to figure things out along the way.

Sure, for some semi-ER is a great plan.

I used to think it was ideal (not my path, but in my mind the ideal one).  Now, though, I think the complete freedom of time is worth it.

Like, I wouldn't want a job that took a single hour per week, but paid me 6 figures annually.  Because the constraints on that hour would be too much.  Having to be there, not out traveling, or living.  No thanks.

If I took a job, there'd be no difference to me between 1 hour and 20 hours.  The dropoff from "some" to "none at all" is huge.  It's the complete freedom that's great, not the "less work" part.

[StetsTerhune]

That's the interesting question to me: if your job said "we can't pay you anymore, but we'd love for you to come volunteer for 40 hours/week," would you say yes?  Is that where you'd find the most benefit for your time?  If you're essentially volunteering, is there no where else that you could make a larger impact?  Nothing else you'd be happier doing?

If that's the case, great, keep working past FI.

I think that's an interesting thought experiment, but it's also a huge simplification of the real question of whether to keep working past FI. It's not as if additional money ceases to have marginal value once you hit FI (perhaps Jakob at ERE would say that, but I suspect that's a very very small minority). I'm weighing whether PersonalValue(Job A + salary from Job A)> PersonalValue(every other possible alternative).  The more money I get, the less value that salary from Job A has, but it never has zero value. Even if I were giving 100% of it away to charity, that's still value.

[Chris22]

Say you win that $700 million powerball tomorrow, do you still go to your job? Assume now that money is basically not a concern, is your job something you would do for free?

For most people, the answer is absolutely not. That's why I would retire early. My job is where I trade my time to money, because I have to. The minute I don't have to anymore is the minute I leave.

Yeah, but for some people that's a silly question.  I'll tell you what I'd do with $700M (or really, $200M after everything); buy a beach house and a few cool sports cars and maybe a boat and spend a lot of time tinkering with them, and traveling.

Let me tell you all of my hobbies that I could do with a yearly income of $25k or $30k:  maybe one cheapo sports car, and a canoe. 

One of those scenarios makes sense to stop going to work for.  The other one really doesn't, for me.

Ah, you need to work on the concept of "enough."

700MM and 1MM are the same, to my personal spending (all it would change is freeing some of my family and friends as well).

If you can understand someone leaving with 700MM, because they're happy with that, why can't you understand that for someone is happy with what they have (whatever that amount is), why keep going to work?

If you wouldn't work for free, once you're FI, you should quit. Because you don't need the money, so you're trading your time for something you don't need.  That's ridiculous.

People who have what they want, I understand not wanting to work anymore (the flip side, maybe some people need to understand that others want more than riding a bike and washing out Ziplocs).  Too many people seem to try and trim down what they want in order to run away from a bad work situation, instead of trying to improve the situation (or moving to a new situation). 

[AZDude]

Say you win that $700 million powerball tomorrow, do you still go to your job? Assume now that money is basically not a concern, is your job something you would do for free?

For most people, the answer is absolutely not. That's why I would retire early. My job is where I trade my time to money, because I have to. The minute I don't have to anymore is the minute I leave.

This is completely true, but the thing I wonder about is if I won $700M, my friends and family could RE with me, and I imagine some fun times with a good group of people all with plenty of free time. On the other hand, if I retire early by myself, I imagine calling someone up like "hey, lets go fishing" and they say "I cant, I have to work". I could make new friends, but those initial months might not be as much fun in reality as in theory.

[GuitarStv]

Say you win that $700 million powerball tomorrow, do you still go to your job? Assume now that money is basically not a concern, is your job something you would do for free?

For most people, the answer is absolutely not. That's why I would retire early. My job is where I trade my time to money, because I have to. The minute I don't have to anymore is the minute I leave.

Yeah, but for some people that's a silly question.  I'll tell you what I'd do with $700M (or really, $200M after everything); buy a beach house and a few cool sports cars and maybe a boat and spend a lot of time tinkering with them, and traveling.

Let me tell you all of my hobbies that I could do with a yearly income of $25k or $30k:  maybe one cheapo sports car, and a canoe. 

One of those scenarios makes sense to stop going to work for.  The other one really doesn't, for me.

How much time do you want to have tinkering with a car?  How much time do you want to have living near the beach?  How much time do you want to spend traveling?

Any work you do is permanently taking away from that time, so you have to decide.  Is doing some sort of cheap slow travel while you're younger more rewarding than doing a little fancy pants travelling years later?  Is have several expensive sports cars in your old age better than having one serviceable one when you're younger?  Is owning a beach house more important than spending time on the beach?

There's no right answer, it's up to you.  It's important to carefully consider all the options though, and not dismiss potential ways to achieve your goals too quickly.

[StetsTerhune]

There's no right answer, it's up to you.  It's important to carefully consider all the options though, and not dismiss potential ways to achieve your goals too quickly.

Well said. I think people are people quick to accept that different people have different tastes and different spending levels, but then so resistant to the notion that their own tastes are not absolute.

It's a huge logical leap from "If I had unlimited money I would have a bunch of sports cars" to "If I only had 30k per year, I couldn't have very many sports cars, therefore I wouldn't have a satisfying life."

There's an infinite number of possibilities in this life. We all need to find the optimum one for ourselves. But if you think that someone absolutely couldn't be happy with 30k a year, I think they probably just need to spend more time dreaming up ways they could.

[Chris22]

It's a huge logical leap from "If I had unlimited money I would have a bunch of sports cars" to "If I only had 30k per year, I couldn't have very many sports cars, therefore I wouldn't have a satisfying life."

I have 1 sports car, and I like my job enough that I want to keep going in order to buy more.  :)

[matchewed]

Something something little to no further utility something something.