Author Topic: What happens after retirement?  (Read 24654 times)

aarmfield

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What happens after retirement?
« on: July 12, 2013, 05:32:05 PM »
So, after extensively reading through the articles, I began to understand a lot of the principles being applied.  However, one thing that keeps coming up in question is the following:

How much freedom do I really have after "retired?"

Let's say I live under the gun of not having the luxuries that most people spend their money on.  I move closer to work, I bike to work, I get rid of my awesome cool phone and get a $19/mo plan.  Once I retire in 10 years...with $500,000 put away, am I supposed to continue living this way, or is there something that hasn't clicked for me?  Do you live off the interest that money earns you?  Do you purchase a company and invest in someone else to gain your monthly income to cover bills?  Should one continue living the lifestyle of no luxuries until death?

I would love to struggle and put in my time for the next 7 years living on basically nothing and putting away 75% of my income.  The problem is, I don't want to have to live that way forever.  I don't like having to go to work day in and day out 9-5, but I want to be able to play video games, go fishing, etc. that costs money to take up your time while not working.  If it means I get to buy a boat and take my son water skiing, go on vacations, and travel the world, then I don't mind working the 9-5 to pay for all of that.

The way I see it, if I saved $52.5K/year in a $70K/year job (75%), for 10 years, I would have $525,000.  If I only spent $20K/year, that $525,000 would get me 26.25 years.  While that is a lot of time, that is no where near the amount it would take to survive through your ages, unless I was 60 already.  I would have to go back to work, and have to work twice as hard to get back to where I left off, and work through my 60's to get back to retirement.  It just doesn't seem like something that would work, from the outside.

Please help me realize that my mind is just set in a way that keeps me locked into a rat race and how to turn that though around.

steveo

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2013, 05:40:28 PM »
My take is that you need to figure out if you really want those luxuries or not and then what you are prepared to do to keep and get those luxuries. You can spend everything you earn and even borrow and ramp up your lifestyle if that is what you want.

If you choose to save as you have stated you might get a lot longer than than 26.25 years because that money would be earning interest/dividends/whatever - it would basically be earning money for you to spend and if you kept your spending under control it could last forever.

I suppose it is your choice to think through what you want.

I do Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and it costs me about $1,050 per year + gi's which is maybe another $500 per year. I'm not going to quit this activity to increase my savings rate and retire earlier or just have more for later. I have 3 kids and I am not going to stop spending on them within reason in order to retire earlier. I will though pay off my mortgage as quickly as possible and minimise my spending on stuff I consider frivolous in order to become financially independent. It is your call where your limits are.

As to what to do when you retire I suppose the same principle applies. You have a certain amount of money to spend. If you need more you need to work more or borrow or whatever. Personally I don't need fancy cars/boats/holidays/etc and I would happily retire on $20k per year. I'd prefer not having to go to work each day and just to exercise, eat well, read and potter around the house. Occasionally I could go out to a restaurant and maybe even travel every so often. Truthfully though luxuries aren't that important to me.



« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 05:44:07 PM by steveo »

happy

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2013, 06:05:05 PM »
As steveo noted,  your issues with MMM seem to fall into 2 categories:

Firstly "the math". If your expenses are 20k a year then a 525K portfolio is just better than a  4% SWR and if future returns are no worse than historical ones, then it should last indefinitely. However you math is incorrect since if you save 52.5k a year and invest it at 5%  for 10 years then you will end up with 665k approx. This will yield about 26.5k a year at 4% SWR or be safer/last longer if you only draw 20k.  There are assumptions in here, but they are fairly conservative.  Also you could still do some part-time work intermittently which will boost the numbers if you were concerned.


Secondly "the freedom issue". It depends on whether  you think  working 9-5 until you are 65 with a larger disposable income gives you more freedom than being retired with a smaller disposable income. Personally I've been working part-time for the last 18 years and find this optimises that equation, but it will not be the same for everyone.  If you think living frugally involves gritting your teeth and a life of miserable deprivation, then you've missed "the attitude" part of the program.  If you look for free fun things to do and enjoy, you will realise life is just as much fun as if you are wanting a big boat. Spending on stuff gives only passing happiness. Learning to live on less is both an interesting challenge and a fun game.  Some of us "min-max"...ie have something expensive they are passionate about, and minimise all other expenses to pay for it. In one sense MMMs min-max is not having a 9-5 job.

There is no single right solution to the parameters: you get to design your own.  Think about what you would like in retirement and the cheapest way to acheive that. Keep challenging your assumptions. Develop frugal habits and enjoy.


Eric

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2013, 06:23:09 PM »
Should one continue living the lifestyle of no luxuries until death?

Is there a greater luxury than spending your time how you choose?

jdoolin

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2013, 07:08:51 PM »
There are a couple of issues I see here.

One is that you're still under the impression that living a frugal life means living a deprived life of misery.  This need not be the case, and for many in this community (such as myself) it has been the opposite.  I've cut out so many expenses and I've gotten VERY selective about what I spend my money on.  I seek out free or inexpensive ways to enjoy life and engage in activities that result in long term happiness, rather than the fleeting pleasure of purchases.

The other issue I see is that I'm not sure you realize that many of us, including MMM and steveo above, still spend money on luxuries.  Like MMM, I believe that I live a VERY luxurious life.  I have video games and guitars, a nice bike, I make home roasted coffee from some of the best beans in the world (and cheaper than MMM's coffee), I still buy fancy beers (but not as often... it's actually below MMM's budget from his alcohol article), we eat fantastic, home cooked and healthy meals and soon we'll have a nice home that we will continue to improve.  My life is pretty effing awesome.

The difference is I'm extremely selective about what I buy now.  For example, I recently purchased a practice amplifier for electric guitar.  I've been using my performance amp for both, but it's relatively big and inconvenient to lug back and forth (it's a Vox AC15), and it's also very loud and has no way of allowing me to practice at home quietly.  I began to evaluate the possibility of getting a practice amp.  I considered whether or not it would be worthwhile, I shopped for various models, scanned craigslist and the used music equipment at local shops... I spent a couple weeks making the decision.

But I eventually decided to get one.  Music is something I find very rewarding and it's a skill and self-improvement that is awesome for one's well being and long term happiness.  Being able to practice at home and play more often is a huge win.  I opted for a NEW(!!!) Vox Pathfinder 10 amp.  After considering all the used equipment, it didn't cost much more to get the new Vox, and it also has the advantage of being similar to my performance amp in sound and in the way it works with the rest of my equipment.  I've also discovered it works great at rehearsals and I can even use it in performance as a monitor or even a second amp for small venues.

So I still purchase things for myself.  But I still have a 50+% savings rate, and I've cut out so many of the other random luxuries I used to buy.  As MMM puts it, I've been cured of wanting the crap I used to want.  I've found enjoyment and happiness in so many other things that are either free or cost very little.

I also have so many things I want to do in the future, some of which will cost some money (but not a whole lot) but most will be free/very cheap and a few have the potential of *making* extra money.  When I retire I'll have all the time in the world to do these things and not care about whether or not they produce income.

THAT is freedom.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 07:32:07 PM by jdoolin »

dragoncar

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2013, 07:34:32 PM »
Yes you live that way indefinitely.  To me, it looks like this:

1) Find the minimum expense to lead a happy life.  This is usually a lot lower than people think it is, but some people just need more.  That's OK, the numbers change.
2) Live this minimum expense happy life while working.  Don't waste your money on things that don't truly improve your life.  Save a bunch.
3) Once you've saved 25-30 times your annual expenses, "retire" and continue living your minimum expense happy life indefinitely.

arebelspy

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2013, 07:38:17 PM »
Yes you live that way indefinitely.  To me, it looks like this:

1) Find the minimum expense to lead a happy life.  This is usually a lot lower than people think it is, but some people just need more.  That's OK, the numbers change.
2) Live this minimum expense happy life while working.  Don't waste your money on things that don't truly improve your life.  Save a bunch.
3) Once you've saved 25-30 times your annual expenses, "retire" and continue living your minimum expense happy life indefinitely.

This.  I wouldn't "sacrifice" when I'm saving for retirement, nor would I "sacrifice" in retirement.

I'd spend what would make me happy.

The trick is finding what truly makes you happy and only spend on that - you should be able to cut a TON of waste.  It's surprising how little you actually need to be happy.
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lauren_knows

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2013, 08:12:41 PM »
As steveo noted,  your issues with MMM seem to fall into 2 categories:

Firstly "the math". If your expenses are 20k a year then a 525K portfolio is just better than a  4% SWR and if future returns are no worse than historical ones, then it should last indefinitely. However you math is incorrect since if you save 52.5k a year and invest it at 5%  for 10 years then you will end up with 665k approx. This will yield about 26.5k a year at 4% SWR or be safer/last longer if you only draw 20k.  There are assumptions in here, but they are fairly conservative.  Also you could still do some part-time work intermittently which will boost the numbers if you were concerned.


Just about right. If you do no worse than history, calculators like www.cfiresim.com tell me that 10yrs of saving $52.5k will give you on average a $695,510 portfolio. That portfolio will provide $23,238/yr in expenses, following inflation, if you do no worse than any time in the past (a 40yr retirement period).  These sort of calculators can give people more confidence in the numbers.

arebelspy

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2013, 08:19:06 PM »
If you do no worse than history, calculators like www.cfiresim.com tell me that 10yrs of saving $52.5k will give you on average a $695,510 portfolio.

What calculation are you using to get this?  If I put in a portfolio of $0, saving 52,500/yr, retiring in 2023 (10 years), leaving everything else defaults, I see an average portfolio of 759k and a median of 729k.

EDIT: Using FIRECalc putting in 0 spending, 0 portfolio, 10 years, retiring in 2023, saving 52.5/yr until then gives me an average of $761,819, very close to cfiresim's 759.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 08:22:18 PM by arebelspy »
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

lauren_knows

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2013, 08:29:03 PM »
If you do no worse than history, calculators like www.cfiresim.com tell me that 10yrs of saving $52.5k will give you on average a $695,510 portfolio.

What calculation are you using to get this?  If I put in a portfolio of $0, saving 52,500/yr, retiring in 2023 (10 years), leaving everything else defaults, I see an average portfolio of 759k and a median of 729k.

EDIT: Using FIRECalc putting in 0 spending, 0 portfolio, 10 years, retiring in 2023, saving 52.5/yr until then gives me an average of $761,819, very close to cfiresim's 759.

I'm doing 0 spending, 0 portfolio, only 10 years of simulation, with a recurring portfolio addition from 2013-2023. So that I can see the "final portfolio". It's adjusted for inflation, so it's in Today's Dollars.  In theory, our simulations should be identical...
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 09:16:15 AM by bo_knows »

arebelspy

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2013, 08:32:55 PM »
That test string gets me the 759k/729k avg/median I posted, not the 695k you posted.

I did it 3 ways: with retiring in a decade and contributing each year, with retiring now and adding off chart income, and with your test string.

All 3 are identical to my original results.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

steveo

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2013, 10:05:24 PM »
Yes you live that way indefinitely.  To me, it looks like this:

1) Find the minimum expense to lead a happy life.  This is usually a lot lower than people think it is, but some people just need more.  That's OK, the numbers change.
2) Live this minimum expense happy life while working.  Don't waste your money on things that don't truly improve your life.  Save a bunch.
3) Once you've saved 25-30 times your annual expenses, "retire" and continue living your minimum expense happy life indefinitely.

This is a great way to look at it.

Kriegsspiel

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2013, 10:21:03 PM »
Is that not the way everyone sees it? I have the same mindset as dragoncar. I like the idea that you don't have to be static, you can have different phases to your time. For instance, you just set your annual spending in your accumulation phase (or whatever you are using as your "retirement" goal spending), and maybe you want to keep doing what you're doing, just with more free time. Or maybe you take that annual amount and see how much international travel you can do with it. Something like that. Keeps it spicy.

arebelspy

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2013, 11:42:58 PM »
I like the idea that you don't have to be static, you can have different phases to your time.

Absolutely.

Heck, I'm planning my spending in retirement to be 2-3 times higher than it is now.

(DINKs working can spend a lot less less than a family traveling full time.. Spend less now to build p a big stache and spend more later.)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

lauren_knows

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2013, 05:49:05 AM »
That test string gets me the 759k/729k avg/median I posted, not the 695k you posted.

I did it 3 ways: with retiring in a decade and contributing each year, with retiring now and adding off chart income, and with your test string.

All 3 are identical to my original results.

I was thinking about this as I slept (ha!).  The reason I got a different answer, was because I didn't do inflation adjusted amounts, I did a flat 52.5k per year. Firecalc forces you into an amount that adjusts with inflation each year.  And....I just sent you the wrong test string.

I'm having issues getting some test strings to even work.  It just gives back a $0 output. Not sure what it is.  I can copy one directly from the output page, paste it in, and it works fine. Copy and pasting from these forums isn't working. Weird...

Good times.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 06:07:09 AM by bo_knows »

steveo

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2013, 06:04:48 AM »
Is that not the way everyone sees it?

I think most people don't really think about it. I personally never thought early retirement was really possible unless you earned a fortune until very recently. I think most people spend without much thought going into it.

Kriegsspiel

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2013, 06:18:58 AM »
I like the idea that you don't have to be static, you can have different phases to your time.

Absolutely.

Heck, I'm planning my spending in retirement to be 2-3 times higher than it is now.

(DINKs working can spend a lot less less than a family traveling full time.. Spend less now to build p a big stache and spend more later.)

I was trying to refute the thinking that you won't be able to travel around, since you'll have a rent payment. Or you won't be able to become a Krav Maga expert AND a racquetball maestro. Or that you won't have enough money to spawn, since your early retirement is budgeted for following Justin Bieber's world tours.  You probably CAN, just stop wanting to do it all at the same time.

I think about this a lot. I think Jacob talked about this a lot. But it just makes sense.  Here is a cartoon.


arebelspy

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2013, 10:09:36 AM »
I was trying to refute the thinking that you won't be able to travel around, since you'll have a rent payment. Or you won't be able to become a Krav Maga expert AND a racquetball maestro. Or that you won't have enough money to spawn, since your early retirement is budgeted for following Justin Bieber's world tours.  You probably CAN, just stop wanting to do it all at the same time.

I really like that SMBC as well, and agree with its ideas.

I also agree with the idea that you can do anything you want, but not everything.

The problem is I don't want to put off having kids any longer than we are (shooting to have the first around age 30), and I don't want to put off traveling for a decade+ either.

So I'd rather make a plan to have both.  That, IMO, is the best way to go.  Figure out what you really want, and make a plan to get it.

And, since we'll be able to achieve that by young-30s and we both enjoy our jobs, I don't see a point to saying "well I can FIRE today, so I'll do it, but it means I can't have everything I want all at the same time" -- screw that, I'll wait a few years so I can have what I want all at the same time.

Sure, I could travel now (and we do).  Sure, I could have kids now.  I could probably FIRE and travel now and have kids, and be close to a very frugal budget of that, maybe occasionally getting part time gigs.  But I'd rather get it out of the way now, while we have jobs we enjoy.

YMMV.   I do totally understand those hating their jobs and wanting to FIRE ASAP, and being willing to give up certain things in retirement, and I understand those wanting semi-ER.  Just not what I want, I want to be completely done working unless I choose, and I want kids and travel.. will just take a few more years to get there, and a budget of 2-3x what we have now.  I'm good with that.  :)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

Nords

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2013, 06:42:07 PM »
How much freedom do I really have after "retired?"

Once I retire in 10 years...with $500,000 put away, am I supposed to continue living this way, or is there something that hasn't clicked for me?  Do you live off the interest that money earns you?  Do you purchase a company and invest in someone else to gain your monthly income to cover bills?  Should one continue living the lifestyle of no luxuries until death?

I would love to struggle and put in my time for the next 7 years living on basically nothing and putting away 75% of my income.  The problem is, I don't want to have to live that way forever.  I don't like having to go to work day in and day out 9-5, but I want to be able to play video games, go fishing, etc. that costs money to take up your time while not working.  If it means I get to buy a boat and take my son water skiing, go on vacations, and travel the world, then I don't mind working the 9-5 to pay for all of that.

Please help me realize that my mind is just set in a way that keeps me locked into a rat race and how to turn that though around.
Geez, maybe you've crossed the line from "frugality" to "deprivation".  You could lighten up a bit and back off the savings rate to, say, 70%.  Maybe even 65% (but let's not go hedonic crazy here).  Just spend an extra $100/month on something that you enjoy.

You get all the freedom that you're willing to work for.  You align your spending with your values, and you save for what's important to you.  If it's so important to you that you'd happily keep working another year (or five or ten) then that's what you'd do. 

When your portfolio is big enough to support the lifestyle that you value, then you're free.  You could go really cheap but you only have to grow your own food, live in a mobile home without air conditioning, take cold showers, walk everywhere, and re-use your dental floss if you value those lifestyles.  Of course if you want to live like Donald Trump then you have to be willing to work long enough to build up enough portfolio to be able to spend millions per year.

In a few years you'll notice that your portfolio will support your bare-bones lifestyle, and you'll decide to work a year or two longer for a few things that you value (like travel or a particular hobby).  Then in another year or two you'll have enough for your decent lifestyle, and you'll consider quitting work.  But you'll be in the middle of a fun project at work, or you'll want a little extra safety margin, or you want a Tesla, so you'll work for another year or two.

Then one morning you'll realize that work is no longer fun and has been no fun for several months.  You'll see that you have more than "enough" in your portfolio, and there are other things you want to do with your life.  You'll think to yourself "Why the heck am I living like this?!?" and you'll send in your resignation.

arebelspy

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2013, 06:53:43 PM »
You get all the freedom that you're willing to work for.

That is a dynamite quote!

Did you make that up, or did you hear it somewhere?
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

Jamesqf

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2013, 10:09:49 PM »
Let's say I live under the gun of not having the luxuries that most people spend their money on.  I move closer to work, I bike to work, I get rid of my awesome cool phone...

The trick here is a bit of an attitude adjustment.  It's not an awesomely cool phone, it's a pain in the butt electronic leash that costs you bunches of money.  Biking to work "deprives" you of perhaps several tens of pounds of flab, improving your health (& perhaps your social life), and saves you money.  And so on.

Eventually you begin to see a lot of those luxuries as not luxurious at all.  Instead, you're living a lifestyle that only benefits the people that are selling you those "luxuries".

vern

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2013, 10:45:38 PM »
My plan is to start drinking heavily.

I thought this was an original idea when I came up with it, but apparently it's been done before.


Kriegsspiel

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2013, 10:52:42 PM »
I LIKE YOU

Nords

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2013, 11:16:59 PM »
You get all the freedom that you're willing to work for.
That is a dynamite quote!
Did you make that up, or did you hear it somewhere?
Thanks.  I think I made it up, although if I'm plagiarizing then I don't remember where I read it.  The words "freedom" and "hard work" came up a lot in my occupation.

I also feel that owning (and caring for) a lot of possessions is no freedom at all.  When I look at how I used to live in college or on sea duty, and compare it to what my Dad owned when we downsized his apartment into his care facility, it's almost enough to turn me into a minimalist.

Maybe I should copyright or trademark that phrase... right up there with "In early retirement you have to be responsible for your own entertainment"...
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 11:19:25 PM by Nords »

Ozstache

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2013, 05:48:11 AM »
How much freedom do I really have after "retired?"

Once I retire in 10 years...with $500,000 put away, am I supposed to continue living this way, or is there something that hasn't clicked for me?  Do you live off the interest that money earns you?  Do you purchase a company and invest in someone else to gain your monthly income to cover bills?  Should one continue living the lifestyle of no luxuries until death?

I would love to struggle and put in my time for the next 7 years living on basically nothing and putting away 75% of my income.  The problem is, I don't want to have to live that way forever.  I don't like having to go to work day in and day out 9-5, but I want to be able to play video games, go fishing, etc. that costs money to take up your time while not working.  If it means I get to buy a boat and take my son water skiing, go on vacations, and travel the world, then I don't mind working the 9-5 to pay for all of that.

Please help me realize that my mind is just set in a way that keeps me locked into a rat race and how to turn that though around.
Geez, maybe you've crossed the line from "frugality" to "deprivation".  You could lighten up a bit and back off the savings rate to, say, 70%.  Maybe even 65% (but let's not go hedonic crazy here).  Just spend an extra $100/month on something that you enjoy.

You get all the freedom that you're willing to work for.  You align your spending with your values, and you save for what's important to you.  If it's so important to you that you'd happily keep working another year (or five or ten) then that's what you'd do. 

When your portfolio is big enough to support the lifestyle that you value, then you're free.  You could go really cheap but you only have to grow your own food, live in a mobile home without air conditioning, take cold showers, walk everywhere, and re-use your dental floss if you value those lifestyles.  Of course if you want to live like Donald Trump then you have to be willing to work long enough to build up enough portfolio to be able to spend millions per year.

In a few years you'll notice that your portfolio will support your bare-bones lifestyle, and you'll decide to work a year or two longer for a few things that you value (like travel or a particular hobby).  Then in another year or two you'll have enough for your decent lifestyle, and you'll consider quitting work.  But you'll be in the middle of a fun project at work, or you'll want a little extra safety margin, or you want a Tesla, so you'll work for another year or two.

Then one morning you'll realize that work is no longer fun and has been no fun for several months.  You'll see that you have more than "enough" in your portfolio, and there are other things you want to do with your life.  You'll think to yourself "Why the heck am I living like this?!?" and you'll send in your resignation.

You just described my life up until about a week ago. And Kriegsspiel's cartoon is hauntingly familiar, except my 'lives' seem to run on about a 10, not 7, year cycle. Finally, dragoncar's 3 point ER plan is the most succinct version I have ever read. Great thread everyone!

SnackDog

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2013, 11:56:00 AM »
Instead of living in deprivation for 10-15 years slaving at job you hate so you can have freedom early, I recommend finding a job you love. This is true freedom. Then you get paid to do what you love and there is no reason to suffer through your best years - you can relax and enjoy doing what you love in comfort.


Jamesqf

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2013, 02:01:16 PM »
I don't like having to go to work day in and day out 9-5, but I want to be able to play video games, go fishing, etc. that costs money to take up your time while not working.  If it means I get to buy a boat and take my son water skiing, go on vacations, and travel the world, then I don't mind working the 9-5 to pay for all of that.

You know, it doesn't actually cost all that much to take your kid fishing.  Couple of rods, some line & hooks, dig up some worms in the garden, and head for the nearest creek or pond.  (As an adult, you'll have to buy a fishing license, but that's maybe $30/year, depending on your state.)  In a pinch, you don't even need rods, just a couple of sticks.  And I guarantee you you'll have just as much fun.

Water skiing can get pretty pricey, so why not do sailboarding and/or kayaking instead?  Lots cheaper, better exercise, no air/water/noise pollution.  For the vacations, why not go on a backpacking or bike touring trip?  Again, way cheaper than doing the hotel or 40-ft RV "camping" thing, you get more exercise and IMHO have more fun.  All it takes is a bit of an attitude adjustment.

brewer12345

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2013, 04:03:39 PM »
Instead of living in deprivation for 10-15 years slaving at job you hate so you can have freedom early, I recommend finding a job you love. This is true freedom. Then you get paid to do what you love and there is no reason to suffer through your best years - you can relax and enjoy doing what you love in comfort.

Let me hop on my purple unicorn and get started on that right away!

Albert

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2013, 04:49:27 PM »
Instead of living in deprivation for 10-15 years slaving at job you hate so you can have freedom early, I recommend finding a job you love. This is true freedom. Then you get paid to do what you love and there is no reason to suffer through your best years - you can relax and enjoy doing what you love in comfort.

Some of us myself included have managed to more or less do so, but I wonder how many jobs are out there someone is likely to love? 5% or maybe 10%? I doubt it's much more than that...

footenote

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2013, 05:02:11 PM »
Agree with brewer12345 and albert; jobs you "luv" are few.

I made my money doing jobs that others found onerous / difficult / unglamorous and relishing the challenge. (Spoiler alert: they pay really, really well....)

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2013, 05:04:24 PM »
I think having a job you love is a rare thing. I think that there will be lots of things about your job that you don't love - waking up early and commuting, going to stupid meetings, performance reviews where you know that the game is all about minimizing bonus payments to keep it within a certain band, difficult bosses, difficult co-workers.

There are also things that I do that I might enjoy in the moment but aren't really what I would choose to do. For instance at the end of a project sometimes I go out and get drunk with the team I am working with. I suppose I enjoy this but its not really how I would like to be spending my time.

I like my job and I like the work most of the time but if I had a choice I could do the work that I enjoy by myself at home and focus on the fun stuff. I'd also do less of it and spend more time doing other stuff that I can enjoy just as much.

Albert

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2013, 05:12:40 PM »
Loving your job doesn't necessarily imply loving every aspect of it and/or loving it every single day.

I believe I've made a very good choice with my job, but still there are aspects of it I don't like all that much (too many meetings and bureaucracy, waking up at 6:30 am etc) and there are occasionally days when I'd rather not be there. I'm sure it's the same for many others.

steveo

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2013, 05:53:29 PM »
Loving your job doesn't necessarily imply loving every aspect of it and/or loving it every single day.

I agree. That is why for me personally I'd rather move towards retirement as quickly as possible within reason. I'd be happier not working full-time than working full-time. I work from home one day per week at least and I love that time. I'd like more of it. I can still do the parts of my job that I love without getting paid for it (maybe even getting paid intermittently for it) without having to go to work and deal with the negative aspects of work.

MrsPete

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2013, 05:58:15 PM »
I think the concept of loving your job is really stressed to teens; you know the cliches:  find a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life, follow your passion and the money will follow.  I've not found those to be truthful or useful.  Some of them even have the idea that if you don't get up every morning saying, "I can't wait to get to work!" Then something's wrong with you. 

I like my job, but I would not do it for free.  Even though I am generally satisfied with my job, I have bad -- no, make that awful -- days occasionally, and my job does include some tasks that I despise.  Overall though, most days, I am satisfied with my job. 

If you find someone who absolutely adores every single thing about his job, I suspect he's just out of college and still in the honeymoon phase -- that is, he's still high on the reality of earning an adult paycheck for the first time.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 05:59:46 PM by MrsPete »

Jamesqf

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2013, 06:05:45 PM »
Loving your job doesn't necessarily imply loving every aspect of it and/or loving it every single day.

The same applies to the stuff I do for fun.  As for instance I usually enjoy taking the horse out for a nice long ride in the mountains, but on a day when it's hot, the sun is baking us 'cause there isn't as much shade as I thought, and the deer flies are biting both of us...  Well, I don't enjoy that much at all.  Or if I'm out for a nice long bike ride, and have to fight a 25 mph headwind on the way home.  Or skiing, and what I thought was going to be great fresh powder melts into slush along about noon...

Nords

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2013, 06:09:16 PM »
If you find someone who absolutely adores every single thing about his job, I suspect he's just out of college and still in the honeymoon phase -- that is, he's still high on the reality of earning an adult paycheck for the first time.
Or they haven't started a family yet, or they haven't found something else that they enjoy more than their job...

steveo

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2013, 06:55:06 PM »
Or they haven't started a family yet, or they haven't found something else that they enjoy more than their job...

This is the next point. I prefer lots of things to going to work. I love going to the gym and doing jiu-jitsu. I love reading a book. When I see your avatar and you look like you are surfing in Hawaii I'm bloody jealous. I'd rather be surfing than turning up to work each day.

I get that there will always be stuff you don't enjoy doing. I don't really like mowing the lawn or taking out the garbage but I do it and that won't change. I think though it is in my interest to maximize my days/life to get as much enjoyment out of it as possible.

wepner

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2013, 07:51:31 PM »
It seems like "Loving every aspect of your job" or "preferring it to everything else in your life" are pretty high hurdles to clear in order to be able to say that you love your job.

Are you guys going to hold your hobbies to these standards after you retire?

There is a lot I like about my job, but I felt the same way when I was doing student teaching when I was in graduate school, or working like every job in a supermarket too. I wouldn't mind working less or making more, but I'm not desperately trying to escape either.

jdoolin

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2013, 08:08:05 PM »
I will never run out of things to do, retired or not.  One of my frustrations with a full time job has always been the lack of time to do things I really wanted, particularly projects and hobbies that require a lot more free time than I've had since entering the workforce. 

Basically, I've got a backlog of things I want to do.  A long list of hobbies and interests that will keep me challenged and working toward goals.  Sometimes I think it would be enough for two lifetimes.

Thing is, I do honestly love my job.  Teaching at a community college is awesome, and I can honestly say I've never worked a job that I've continued to enjoy as much as this.  That being said, here in 10 years or so, I think I'll be ready to hang it up, at least full time.  I may teach a few of my favorite classes here and there as an adjunct, but I'm looking forward to the total freedom in my schedule.  I also know that finding really great jobs can sometimes be tricky around here, so I'd feel bad about keeping one if I don't need it.

secondcor521

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2013, 08:09:59 PM »
[When I see your avatar and you look like you are surfing in Hawaii I'm bloody jealous.

You know he *is* surfing in Hawaii on a regular basis, right?

brewer12345

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2013, 08:27:36 PM »
It seems like "Loving every aspect of your job" or "preferring it to everything else in your life" are pretty high hurdles to clear in order to be able to say that you love your job.

Are you guys going to hold your hobbies to these standards after you retire?

My hobbies are on a totally different scale than any job I have ever had.  My jobs have all entailed substantial drudgery, stress, and general assfuckery.  My hobbies have none of this.  When I am fishing or hunting and strike out (no fish/birds/critters to be had) I am still outside and generally in a beautiful setting.  I do as much as I please, have total control over how I do it, when and where, and if I feel like stopping earlier than planned there are no consequences.  Find me a job like that...

Dulcimina

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2013, 08:36:19 PM »

I would love to struggle and put in my time for the next 7 years living on basically nothing and putting away 75% of my income.  The problem is, I don't want to have to live that way forever.  I don't like having to go to work day in and day out 9-5, but I want to be able to play video games, go fishing, etc. that costs money to take up your time while not working.  If it means I get to buy a boat and take my son water skiing, go on vacations, and travel the world, then I don't mind working the 9-5 to pay for all of that.


Money isn't necessarily the answer.  Do you want to buy a boat, and pay for maintenance, insurance, storage, and a truck to haul it around? Or do you just want to go out in a boat sometimes? If all you want to do is go out on a boat sometimes, can you come up with creative ways to do that? Here's the list I came up with:
Barter
Hang out with friends that have boats
Boat-sit (if such a thing exists)
Buy the boat and live in it/travel the world in it (two-fer!)
Get a boat-related part time job
Rent a boat the couple of times a year that you'd use it
Make or refurbish your own boat
Boat-share (time share for boats?)
Become a water-ski instructor in the summers
Hire yourself out as a boat captain or tour guide...

steveo

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2013, 09:15:05 PM »
[When I see your avatar and you look like you are surfing in Hawaii I'm bloody jealous.

You know he *is* surfing in Hawaii on a regular basis, right?

I get it. Right now I'm wearing a suit and plugging away at the keyboard and surfing the internet. I know where I would rather be.

steveo

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2013, 09:25:48 PM »
It seems like "Loving every aspect of your job" or "preferring it to everything else in your life" are pretty high hurdles to clear in order to be able to say that you love your job.

Are you guys going to hold your hobbies to these standards after you retire?

My hobbies are on a totally different scale than any job I have ever had.  My jobs have all entailed substantial drudgery, stress, and general assfuckery.  My hobbies have none of this.  When I am fishing or hunting and strike out (no fish/birds/critters to be had) I am still outside and generally in a beautiful setting.  I do as much as I please, have total control over how I do it, when and where, and if I feel like stopping earlier than planned there are no consequences.  Find me a job like that...

This is exactly what I feel. I think my job is basically alright but comparing it to my hobbies is a joke.

wepner

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2013, 10:06:11 PM »
I never meant to imply that work was as good or better than hobbies or free time, I'm just saying that some people in this thread are framing the discussion about what it means to "enjoy your job" in an unusual way.

I vastly prefer prime rib to boneless skinless chicken breast or having sex to playing basketball, but it doesn't mean that I hate chicken breasts or basketball or that I'm looking forward to a time where I never eat chicken or play basketball again.
Sure I would prefer to be able to have more of a choice about what I do and how I do it everyday but it doesn't mean I am unhappy with my job anymore than I am unhappy with a chicken dinner or a pick up basketball game.

I think ablert and james have sort of already said what I'm trying to say just without the dumb analogies so I'll probably stop now. (Maybe)

Albert

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2013, 01:11:29 AM »
Besides getting paid for my job I also feel that I contribute something to the society by using my hard acquired skills. In addition my job is far more intellectually challenging than any hobby I could think off.

I also love hiking, skiing and playing tennis but I think I would be bored if that was all I had myself to occupy with (I have no kids). Maybe when I'm 50 I'll think differently, but not now...

Jamesqf

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2013, 11:23:15 AM »
I prefer lots of things to going to work. I love going to the gym and doing jiu-jitsu. I love reading a book. When I see your avatar and you look like you are surfing in Hawaii I'm bloody jealous. I'd rather be surfing than turning up to work each day.

But if you HAD to show up at the beach at 8 am every day, and put in your 8 hours regardless of surf conditions, don't you think THAT would get pretty old?

The problem here is that you are taking all the non-good things about work, like the 9-5ness, and thinking that that's all there is to work, so you're not going to do it any more.  Why not instead use your increasing FI as leverage to improve working conditions, keeping the enjoyable parts (including getting paid).  As for instance I work whatever hours I want, so that if I want to go for a hike or bike ride this afternoon, I can.  And if it's too hot (which the forecast is predicting), I can stay here in the cool house and work, or read a book, or whatever.

DoubleDown

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2013, 11:28:10 AM »
My jobs have all entailed substantial drudgery, stress, and general assfuckery. 

That made me laugh out loud. I vote it for Quote of the Day.

footenote

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2013, 12:02:04 PM »
My jobs have all entailed substantial drudgery, stress, and general assfuckery. 

That made me laugh out loud. I vote it for Quote of the Day.
+1

steveo

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Re: What happens after retirement?
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2013, 03:14:42 PM »
My jobs have all entailed substantial drudgery, stress, and general assfuckery. 

That made me laugh out loud. I vote it for Quote of the Day.

It is a great quote.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!