What do you value more - money or time?

[arebelspy]

Who cares?  He's already FI.

Extra money has no utility.

Does being FI automatically mean that extra money has no utility?  I don't think that is true in every case, instead depending on the desired level of luxury for each individual person.  One could argue that I'm already FI because my NW is over $1 million...but I want to live more luxuriously in retirement, so the extra money I'm earning now does have utility.

One could also argue if your NW won't support your lifestyle you aren't FI.  The amount really has nothing to do with it.

This.  If your net worth won't support the lifestyle you want, you aren't FI.  You're "barebones FI" or something similar, where you could get by okay if you lost your job.  But you aren't fully FI to the level you want.  Assuming you were, no, money has no extra utility beyond charity, in my view.

I have considered going back to work to earn more to donate, and may do that at some point, but no, for myself, I'm FI at the level of spending I want, and if I wasn't allowed to give away any extra money I earned, it would be useless to me, and I'm literally trading my time for bits of paper.

[mak1277]

Who cares?  He's already FI.

Extra money has no utility.

Does being FI automatically mean that extra money has no utility?  I don't think that is true in every case, instead depending on the desired level of luxury for each individual person.  One could argue that I'm already FI because my NW is over $1 million...but I want to live more luxuriously in retirement, so the extra money I'm earning now does have utility.

One could also argue if your NW won't support your lifestyle you aren't FI.  The amount really has nothing to do with it.

This.  If your net worth won't support the lifestyle you want, you aren't FI.  You're "barebones FI" or something similar, where you could get by okay if you lost your job.  But you aren't fully FI to the level you want.  Assuming you were, no, money has no extra utility beyond charity, in my view.

I have considered going back to work to earn more to donate, and may do that at some point, but no, for myself, I'm FI at the level of spending I want, and if I wasn't allowed to give away any extra money I earned, it would be useless to me, and I'm literally trading my time for bits of paper.

So you honestly would get ZERO enjoyment out of flying first class instead of coach, just to use one example?  I know, you probably don't fly anywhere, but insert your own example.

[arebelspy]

I do, in fact, fly places.  I'm going to Pamukkale, Turkey next week, and Athens, Greece the week after (then Prague a few weeks to a month later).

I would not fly first class if I had an extra 100MM, or up my spending in any way.

It would be extra money to donate to charity.

My spending level is the exact level I want, where I have everything I want without waste.  I wouldn't introduce waste, and if I did, it wouldn't make me happier.

That didn't directly answer your question, which was would I get enjoyment out of flying first class?  Maybe, slightly.  So if it was free, I would consider it, but would have to think about it.  If it was a $1 upgrade, no, I probably wouldn't do it.  I definitely wouldn't pay whatever it cost, regardless of if I had an extra 100MM, because it wouldn't be worth paying for.  The extra money would be donated.

I already pay for everything that I find worth paying for.  I always did that while working, too. The thing that makes me FI is I can continue paying for everything I want (which is higher than when I was working, because I do want more stuff now--I have a more extravagant lifestyle traveling the world full time than I did staying in one place working) without having to work.

[mak1277]

I do, in fact, fly places.  I'm going to Pamukkale, Turkey next week, and Athens, Greece the week after (then Prague a few weeks to a month later).

I would not fly first class if I had an extra 100MM, or up my spending in any way.

It would be extra money to donate to charity.

My spending level is the exact level I want, where I have everything I want without waste.  I wouldn't introduce waste, and if I did, it wouldn't make me happier.

That didn't directly answer your question, which was would I get enjoyment out of flying first class?  Maybe, slightly.  So if it was free, I would consider it, but would have to think about it.  If it was a $1 upgrade, no, I probably wouldn't do it.  I definitely wouldn't pay whatever it cost, regardless of if I had an extra 100MM, because it wouldn't be worth paying for.  The extra money would be donated.

I already pay for everything that I find worth paying for.  I always did that while working, too. The thing that makes me FI is I can continue paying for everything I want (which is higher than when I was working, because I do want more stuff now--I have a more extravagant lifestyle traveling the world full time than I did staying in one place working) without having to work.

Now I just think you're being stubborn...if it was free you'd "have to think about it"?  Give me a break.

[arebelspy]

Now I just think you're being stubborn...if it was free you'd "have to think about it"?  Give me a break.

What makes you doubt my sincerity?

I turn down plenty of free things other people wouldn't.  If it doesn't add value to my life, why would I want it?  I would have to think about if it added value or not.  Still, I admitted though that I would probably take it in that circumstance. 

But it is not worth paying for, for me.

[Bertram]

I've had the pleasure of dining in a first class lounge once, and it was a great experience. Now, I certainly wouldn't want to pay for the expense that would incur (much less the price they would tag on it). Let alone a whole flight. But a free gift with no strings attached? No need to think about it. For a few dollars? Incredibly great value. Flight prices fluctuate all the time anyway, I'd be quick to so some mental accounting to justify a moderate increase in price for such great value, even if I didn't "need" it.

I just don't see why one would turn to down on principle. If a city offered free public transportation and trains and busses would run in a 5 minute schedule going half empty - that would also be an incredible waste - would you also decline a ride on principle due to the waste? Or is it more the category of what is generally categorized as "luxury" targeted to affluent people that turns you off?

[arebelspy]

Today's SMBC, which I've linked here in the Comics thread, may help explain.  I'd rather the salad I enjoy than the salad that "wins."

[arebelspy]

I just don't see why one would turn to down on principle. If a city offered free public transportation and trains and busses would run in a 5 minute schedule going half empty - that would also be an incredible waste - would you also decline a ride on principle due to the waste? Or is it more the category of what is generally categorized as "luxury" targeted to affluent people that turns you off?

But I pay for city busses.  So that would be something I'd use anyways. 

But if I wasn't planning on using a bus that day, but was going to walk a half block, I wouldn't wait and ride the bus just because it was free, if it added no value.

I wouldn't ride the bus up and down the city streets all day, for no reason, just because it's free.

Replacing something I pay for, at a lower cost?  Great!  Something I don't value?  Well, I wouldn't pay for it, and would be very careful about taking it for "free."

What if that free first class ride causes hedonic adaptation such that I am no longer happy with option I was previously happy with?  Did that make me better off, overall?  That's why I would think carefully about it.  So choosing the salad that makes me happy is a win, rather than going for a more expensive one that might not.

Does that make sense?  :)

[mak1277]

Today's SMBC, which I've linked here in the Comics thread, may help explain.  I'd rather the salad I enjoy than the salad that "wins."

I too would rather have the salad I enjoy compared to the salad that wins.  But if you are saying a coach seat is what you enjoy, compared to a first class seat, at the same price (or even at a close price) then you're either being insincere, willfully stubborn or you're a complete fool (for choosing to be uncomfortable when a more comfortable option exists).  Or, I suppose, maybe you're 5'5" tall and don't find coach uncomfortable. 

[arebelspy]

Today's SMBC, which I've linked here in the Comics thread, may help explain.  I'd rather the salad I enjoy than the salad that "wins."

I too would rather have the salad I enjoy compared to the salad that wins.  But if you are saying a coach seat is what you enjoy, compared to a first class seat, at the same price (or even at a close price) then you're either being insincere, willfully stubborn or you're a complete fool (for choosing to be uncomfortable when a more comfortable option exists).  Or, I suppose, maybe you're 5'5" tall and don't find coach uncomfortable.

Did you read my last post?

[mak1277]

Today's SMBC, which I've linked here in the Comics thread, may help explain.  I'd rather the salad I enjoy than the salad that "wins."

I too would rather have the salad I enjoy compared to the salad that wins.  But if you are saying a coach seat is what you enjoy, compared to a first class seat, at the same price (or even at a close price) then you're either being insincere, willfully stubborn or you're a complete fool (for choosing to be uncomfortable when a more comfortable option exists).  Or, I suppose, maybe you're 5'5" tall and don't find coach uncomfortable.

Did you read my last post?

I did...and I will still stick to my three possible reasons for your reaction to this question.

[arebelspy]

/shrug

Think whatever you want. :)

[Cassie]

TIME!!! 10 years ago I would have said $. I am now 61 and in the past 4 years I have had 3 close friends die and 2 become so disabled they had to go into homes.  Were these people a lot older then me or unhealthy?  No, no and no.  1 at age 18 got a rare liver disease and 2 died of cancer.  The other 2 have MS and early Alzheimer's.  I now value my time above all other. I teach a uni class online but would do that for free-that is how much I love the experience.  I once had an opportunity to upgrade to first class because of a $20.00 coupon on a box of soda.  I did it and it was great. Would I pay 20 each time if I could? -yes.  Would I work longer to be able to afford it?-not on your life.  $ will do you no good if you are severely disabled, too sick to enjoy yourself or dead.

[Bertram]

What if that free first class ride causes hedonic adaptation such that I am no longer happy with option I was previously happy with?  Did that make me better off, overall?  That's why I would think carefully about it.  ...
Does that make sense?  :)

Yes and no. I understand not willfully participating in a situation where you are worried temptation might win you over, but you don't see any possible gain. I certainly have my weak spots where I'd do the same (say, for example I wouldn't go out to dinner with a woman I feel attracted to, if I were in a serious relationship with another woman).

But with things and services... I want to give it a try to know for sure whether I am really OK without it, or I just want to have made the experience out of curiosity knowing that I'd never justify the regular price for it anyway.

I mean you could use that argument of yours to never try out a smartphone. But most of us have, and most of us find that it's "worth it". At some point you must have made the decision to give it a try.

I feel there is something that feels not quite right about depriving oneself of something for fear one might like it. But I can't put it into words. Need to to think on it a while...

[arebelspy]

That's why I said I'd probably take it. I almost posted that I'd take it once, but not a second time, but then decided it wasn't worth arguing with mak--you seem more willing to discuss it, so I'm glad to dialogue about it. (Edit: to clarify, happy to discuss with mak, too, or anyone else, just not interested in arguing.) I still haven't made up my own mind, as you can tell by the "probably."

EIther way, whether I did it once or not, it's something I'd consider first, not just do willy-nilly.

To your last paragraph: Would you take a free hit of heroin?  I wouldn't.

I would argue that they're the same thing, in category, even if not scope.

Also, regarding your last paragraph: it's not a deprivation. Not having heroin is not something I'd consider a deprivation, nor is not flying first class

I'm FLYING. Through the AIR!  Yeah, I don't feel deprived at all. Life is amazing!

As I said, if it was something I wanted and valued, I'd pay for it. It's not, so by definition not having it isn't depriving myself.

Yes, I agree depriving yourself isn't good, in most cases. I don't do that, ever.

[Cassie]

Besides you can't fly anywhere-first class or otherwise if you are dead.  So should you work longer to fly first class or retire and fly coach??? Seems like a easy answer to me.

[arebelspy]

Besides you can't fly anywhere-first class or otherwise if you are dead.  So should you work longer to fly first class or retire and fly coach??? Seems like a easy answer to me.

Definitely agree with that.

But we're also talking if you did (magically) have more money (say 100MM lotto ticket found on the ground).  I'm saying it's not worth it to me, even without having to work longer.

Either way though, we're off topic, but the idea of working more for more money past what you need seems silly, to me.  When is it enough?

[Cromacster]

I'm FLYING. Through the AIR!  Yeah, I don't feel deprived at all. Life is amazing!

I try to tell myself this everytime I fly.  I have flown first class several times, but never paid for it and never will.  With that said coach sucks in comparison.

Louis CK has a couple bits that are related to this concept.

People say, “My phone sucks.” No, it doesn’t! The shittiest cellphone in the world is a miracle. Your life sucks. Around the phone.

[arebelspy]

Yeah, I think of that Louis CK bit maybe 25% of the time I fly? But I love the flying experience every time. :D

[Cassie]

Some people will never have enough and others will need something earth shattering to change their viewpoint.  If I won 100m lottery I probably would be flying first class all the time:))   Shame on me!  But i would donate a ton.

[mak1277]

That's why I said I'd probably take it. I almost posted that I'd take it once, but not a second time, but then decided it wasn't worth arguing with mak--you seem more willing to discuss it, so I'm glad to dialogue about it. (Edit: to clarify, happy to discuss with mak, too, or anyone else, just not interested in arguing.) I still haven't made up my own mind, as you can tell by the "probably."

EIther way, whether I did it once or not, it's something I'd consider first, not just do willy-nilly.

To your last paragraph: Would you take a free hit of heroin?  I wouldn't.

I would argue that they're the same thing, in category, even if not scope.

Also, regarding your last paragraph: it's not a deprivation. Not having heroin is not something I'd consider a deprivation, nor is not flying first class

I'm FLYING. Through the AIR!  Yeah, I don't feel deprived at all. Life is amazing!

As I said, if it was something I wanted and valued, I'd pay for it. It's not, so by definition not having it isn't depriving myself.

Yes, I agree depriving yourself isn't good, in most cases. I don't do that, ever.

I'm not really arguing, per se...I'm just bored at work and this is the most interesting thing I've found to do today.

It's really a philosophical thing I think.  I don't believe there's any honor in self deprivation, so I am typically going to choose the more enjoyable, comfortable, easy path...and I'm always going to choose that path if there's no difference in the cost.

As for your heroin example, it's not really apples to apples since that's against the law.  But I don't regret trying cigarettes.


ETA: I wouldn't work an extra year just to fly first class either...but that doesn't mean I don't find extra utility in money earned after FI is achieved.  And that was really the entire point of my example.

[Cap_Scarlet]

Thanks to all for the replies and for making this a lively discussion.

Let me add some perspective.

As i might have mentioned we sat down and worked out our annual spending budget and it came to around $50,000.

There seems to be a lot of discussion on this board about net worth and i would estimate ours is around $2.5 million which is based on around $2 million of cash and investments and a paid for home $0.5 million.  In addition to that we have deferred income savings of $1 million (taxable) and defined benefit pensions which is today's money will pay around $60,000 p.a. from age 63 plus various other bits and pieces of pensions worth around $5,000 p.a. so from age 63 once you add in social security i think our income needs are fully covered.

As I've said though.....its not just about the money.  I definitely lean on the side of time being more important given the position we are in but .....well....y'know after 20 years in the prison camp breaking out into the outside world is not so easy.

Let me wade in a little on this debate about 'conspicuous consumption'.  I am a regular business traveler and have flow first class a few times.  Compared to economy there is absolutely no comparison, its a great experience.  Would i pay for it?  NEVER.  Complete waste of money.  But there is a level at which a little more comfort is probably worth paying for but that's a very personal decision for the individual.  In my view the price differential between economy and business is just to great to justify the utility.  However, we recently flew from south America to Europe and the cost to upgrade from economy to premium economy was 'only $200' for two people and in my view absolutely worth it.

For me spending decisions should be based on two criteria a) the utility / pleasure that the expense brings b) the opportunity cost of the spending i.e. what will it do to your budget for other things.  The first is a very personal choice, the second is basic economics.

 

[arebelspy]

That's why I said I'd probably take it. I almost posted that I'd take it once, but not a second time, but then decided it wasn't worth arguing with mak--you seem more willing to discuss it, so I'm glad to dialogue about it. (Edit: to clarify, happy to discuss with mak, too, or anyone else, just not interested in arguing.) I still haven't made up my own mind, as you can tell by the "probably."

EIther way, whether I did it once or not, it's something I'd consider first, not just do willy-nilly.

To your last paragraph: Would you take a free hit of heroin?  I wouldn't.

I would argue that they're the same thing, in category, even if not scope.

Also, regarding your last paragraph: it's not a deprivation. Not having heroin is not something I'd consider a deprivation, nor is not flying first class

I'm FLYING. Through the AIR!  Yeah, I don't feel deprived at all. Life is amazing!

As I said, if it was something I wanted and valued, I'd pay for it. It's not, so by definition not having it isn't depriving myself.

Yes, I agree depriving yourself isn't good, in most cases. I don't do that, ever.

It's really a philosophical thing I think.  I don't believe there's any honor in self deprivation

It's not deprivation.  It makes me happier. That's the opposite.  In fact, read the last paragraph of what I said, that you quoted. Then you start with that?  It's like you aren't even reading my posts. :)

so I am typically going to choose the more enjoyable, comfortable, easy path...and I'm always going to choose that path if there's no difference in the cost.

Oh. Well here's some things that may make your life better then!

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/03/28/the-incomparable-advantage-of-having-to-work-for-what-you-get/

www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/02/27/get-rich-with-good-old-fashioned-hard-work/

[mak1277]

That's why I said I'd probably take it. I almost posted that I'd take it once, but not a second time, but then decided it wasn't worth arguing with mak--you seem more willing to discuss it, so I'm glad to dialogue about it. (Edit: to clarify, happy to discuss with mak, too, or anyone else, just not interested in arguing.) I still haven't made up my own mind, as you can tell by the "probably."

EIther way, whether I did it once or not, it's something I'd consider first, not just do willy-nilly.

To your last paragraph: Would you take a free hit of heroin?  I wouldn't.

I would argue that they're the same thing, in category, even if not scope.

Also, regarding your last paragraph: it's not a deprivation. Not having heroin is not something I'd consider a deprivation, nor is not flying first class

I'm FLYING. Through the AIR!  Yeah, I don't feel deprived at all. Life is amazing!

As I said, if it was something I wanted and valued, I'd pay for it. It's not, so by definition not having it isn't depriving myself.

Yes, I agree depriving yourself isn't good, in most cases. I don't do that, ever.

It's really a philosophical thing I think.  I don't believe there's any honor in self deprivation

It's not deprivation.  It makes me happier. That's the opposite.  In fact, read the last paragraph of what I said, that you quoted. Then you start with that?  It's like you aren't even reading my posts. :)

so I am typically going to choose the more enjoyable, comfortable, easy path...and I'm always going to choose that path if there's no difference in the cost.

Oh. Well here's some things that may make your life better then!

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/03/28/the-incomparable-advantage-of-having-to-work-for-what-you-get/

www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/02/27/get-rich-with-good-old-fashioned-hard-work/

I've read those blog posts.  They're not for me, but thanks.
 
And I am reading your posts...I know you said it's not deprivation to you, but to me it would be.  Sitting in an uncomfortable seat out of principle is not something I would ever choose to do....it's the opposite of enjoyable and would make me sadder, not happier.

[arebelspy]

That is, of course, up to you.

If you choose to be sadder instead of happier, who am I to question it?  :)

[arebelspy]

It is something for you to think about though.

You've already said you wouldn't work a year longer to fly first class the rest of your life.  So, presuming you fly some in ER, it will be in coach.

So you can choose to be fully happy with it, or not. Why would you choose to not be happy?  :)

[Mr. Green]

As i might have mentioned we sat down and worked out our annual spending budget and it came to around $50,000.

There seems to be a lot of discussion on this board about net worth and i would estimate ours is around $2.5 million which is based on around $2 million of cash and investments and a paid for home $0.5 million.  In addition to that we have deferred income savings of $1 million (taxable) and defined benefit pensions which is today's money will pay around $60,000 p.a. from age 63 plus various other bits and pieces of pensions worth around $5,000 p.a. so from age 63 once you add in social security i think our income needs are fully covered.

Seems like your spending needs are covered by pensions alone, and then you still have your investments and SS income to boot! I'm guessing that's enough loot that you could spend upwards of $200,000 per year once you put all the income sources together. Whatever you do, don't give up 4 more years because the unknown is scarier than the known, and you have the ability to disguise that as making another million. An extra million dollars will always sound sweet but at 51 I'd be thinking about longevity. Stuff happens. Not everyone beats the life expectancy odds. A stroke or heart attack could throw a whole lot of "I want to do X"'s right out the window. I'm always thinking about those articles that say what people on their deathbed regretted and not doing the most with their time is always a big one, and I'm only 32!

[Daisy]

After reading the OP'S financial situation  I don't think they should spend 4 more years working. Your 50s and 60s could be the best health years of your life left. Unless you can negotiate a pretty sweet working deal on YOUR terms or an earlier escape with a reduced payout, it's not worth it. Go into a negotiation asking for this sweet deal knowing they may turn you down and you can just walk away.

My plan is to FIRE before 50 to fully enjoy at least 20 years in good health and plenty of time to be active and extend the number of good health years.

[mak1277]

It is something for you to think about though.

You've already said you wouldn't work a year longer to fly first class the rest of your life.  So, presuming you fly some in ER, it will be in coach.

So you can choose to be fully happy with it, or not. Why would you choose to not be happy?  :)

If I had a choice between flying first class and coach and the price was the same (or even as much as 10% different), flying coach would make me unhappy.  So I wouldn't chose that...I'd fly first class every time.

But the unhappiness of flying coach vs. 1st class pales in comparison to the unhappiness of working compared to retirement.  So while my individual decision (flying coach) would make me unhappy for the time I spend wedged in the chair, my overall decision to retire early would bring me great joy.   My decision on when to ER is just the sum of all those choices (minor inconveniences compared to the overall joy of retirement).  Some things are worth working extra for while others are not.

My main point here, again, is that there IS marginal utility of money earned even past the point of being FI. 

[arebelspy]

It is something for you to think about though.

You've already said you wouldn't work a year longer to fly first class the rest of your life.  So, presuming you fly some in ER, it will be in coach.

So you can choose to be fully happy with it, or not. Why would you choose to not be happy?  :)

If I had a choice between flying first class and coach and the price was the same (or even as much as 10% different), flying coach would make me unhappy.  So I wouldn't chose that...I'd fly first class every time.

But the unhappiness of flying coach vs. 1st class pales in comparison to the unhappiness of working compared to retirement.  So while my individual decision (flying coach) would make me unhappy for the time I spend wedged in the chair, my overall decision to retire early would bring me great joy.   My decision on when to ER is just the sum of all those choices (minor inconveniences compared to the overall joy of retirement).  Some things are worth working extra for while others are not.

My main point here, again, is that there IS marginal utility of money earned even past the point of being FI.

You're missing my main point: you don't have to choose to be unhappy in either of those situations.  :)

(And, given that, I disagree with your final sentence.  But I hesitated to say that, because I fear you'll focus on that.  I get it--you think you'd have a use for more money, because it could make you happier.  But it couldn't.  It would be you, choosing to be happier, that would do it.)

[mak1277]

It is something for you to think about though.

You've already said you wouldn't work a year longer to fly first class the rest of your life.  So, presuming you fly some in ER, it will be in coach.

So you can choose to be fully happy with it, or not. Why would you choose to not be happy?  :)

If I had a choice between flying first class and coach and the price was the same (or even as much as 10% different), flying coach would make me unhappy.  So I wouldn't chose that...I'd fly first class every time.

But the unhappiness of flying coach vs. 1st class pales in comparison to the unhappiness of working compared to retirement.  So while my individual decision (flying coach) would make me unhappy for the time I spend wedged in the chair, my overall decision to retire early would bring me great joy.   My decision on when to ER is just the sum of all those choices (minor inconveniences compared to the overall joy of retirement).  Some things are worth working extra for while others are not.

My main point here, again, is that there IS marginal utility of money earned even past the point of being FI.

You're missing my main point: you don't have to choose to be unhappy in either of those situations.  :)

(And, given that, I disagree with your final sentence.  But I hesitated to say that, because I fear you'll focus on that.  I get it--you think you'd have a use for more money, because it could make you happier.  But it couldn't.  It would be you, choosing to be happier, that would do it.)

I'm not missing your main point, I simply disagree with it on a fundamental level.

[arebelspy]

I'm not missing your main point, I simply disagree with it on a fundamental level.

You disagree that you can choose to be happy sitting in coach? 

Okay, question for you then: If you were sitting in coach, feeling unhappy that you weren't in first class... what exactly is making/forcing you to be unhappy?

[Northwestie]

My recommendation would be to lose weight to comfortably fit in coach.

[arebelspy]

My recommendation would be to lose weight to comfortably fit in coach.

I'm 6'0" and weigh more like a 5'0"... sometimes weight isn't the problem, but length.  :)

[Northwestie]

My recommendation would be to lose weight to comfortably fit in coach.

I'm 6'0" and weigh more like a 5'0"... sometimes weight isn't the problem, but length.  :)

Ha - true that!

[PhysicianOnFIRE]

I do, in fact, fly places.  I'm going to Pamukkale, Turkey next week, and Athens, Greece the week after (then Prague a few weeks to a month later).

I would not fly first class if I had an extra 100MM, or up my spending in any way.

It would be extra money to donate to charity.

My spending level is the exact level I want, where I have everything I want without waste.  I wouldn't introduce waste, and if I did, it wouldn't make me happier.

That didn't directly answer your question, which was would I get enjoyment out of flying first class?  Maybe, slightly.  So if it was free, I would consider it, but would have to think about it.  If it was a $1 upgrade, no, I probably wouldn't do it.  I definitely wouldn't pay whatever it cost, regardless of if I had an extra 100MM, because it wouldn't be worth paying for.  The extra money would be donated.

I already pay for everything that I find worth paying for.  I always did that while working, too. The thing that makes me FI is I can continue paying for everything I want (which is higher than when I was working, because I do want more stuff now--I have a more extravagant lifestyle traveling the world full time than I did staying in one place working) without having to work.

This makes sense to me.  Would I rather fly first class?  Yes.  If I was offered a free upgrade, would I take it?  Yes.  If I had way, way more money than I need, would I pay more for first class?  Probably not. 

I'm not a first class guy, and I can think of better uses for that money than legroom and a warm hand towel.

[Jon_Snow]

Anyone familiar with my story knows I chose TIME. ;) Judging from the results so far...I'd do the same thing again a million times over.

The fact that I left a lot of money on the table doesn't really ever creep into my thoughts...until this thread came along, that is. :)

Won't tell the OP what I think is the right decision for them...but for me it was a NO BRAINER to go live my life on my own terms.

[Bertram]

You're missing my main point: you don't have to choose to be unhappy in either of those situations.  :)

(And, given that, I disagree with your final sentence.  But I hesitated to say that, because I fear you'll focus on that.  I get it--you think you'd have a use for more money, because it could make you happier.  But it couldn't.  It would be you, choosing to be happier, that would do it.)

Ok, now I get what you are saying. I think that it's a pretty difficult thing to learn to be able to do that.

I am already there with cars, e.g., I've driven 100K+ cars and while it was an interesting experience, I know I would get more enjoyment out of cheaper cars. In fact I am planning to downgrade from a 60K car to a 30K car not due to savings but because I fully expect it to be more enjoyable in every aspect. ( Smaller, lighter, more engaged etc). I'd make the same choice if the cars cost the same.

But being a big guy and seeing how economy flights are getting worse and worse all the time... Just the space issue is painful.  I just don't see how I could bring myself to see it that way. To see it that way is like saying that watching half a movie is better than watching the full movie.

Yeah sure I am happy being able to fly, and overall flying coach is obviously good enough for me. But happy is not a binary thing.There are some things that I would enjoy more if I could spend more on it, just as mak said I find there is always some marginal utility to money. But I respect that some people feel differently, though probably a minority...

I did try and do enjoy whisky, bourbon, tobacco... and I am not planning on giving it up because it could save me money. Am I better off? Subjectively I would say yes.

[arebelspy]

Thanks PhysicianOnFIRE and Spartana.  Sometimes I feel quite isolated in my beliefs, even on a forum like this where I have much more in common with people than usual.  :)

You're missing my main point: you don't have to choose to be unhappy in either of those situations.  :)

(And, given that, I disagree with your final sentence.  But I hesitated to say that, because I fear you'll focus on that.  I get it--you think you'd have a use for more money, because it could make you happier.  But it couldn't.  It would be you, choosing to be happier, that would do it.)

Ok, now I get what you are saying. I think that it's a pretty difficult thing to learn to be able to do that.

It's definitely something that takes practice, but it's well, well worth it.

I am already there with cars, e.g., I've driven 100K+ cars and while it was an interesting experience, I know I would get more enjoyment out of cheaper cars. In fact I am planning to downgrade from a 60K car to a 30K car not due to savings but because I fully expect it to be more enjoyable in every aspect. ( Smaller, lighter, more engaged etc). I'd make the same choice if the cars cost the same.

Yeah, great example!

But being a big guy and seeing how economy flights are getting worse and worse all the time... Just the space issue is painful.  I just don't see how I could bring myself to see it that way. To see it that way is like saying that watching half a movie is better than watching the full movie.

Yeah sure I am happy being able to fly, and overall flying coach is obviously good enough for me. But happy is not a binary thing.There are some things that I would enjoy more if I could spend more on it, just as mak said I find there is always some marginal utility to money. But I respect that some people feel differently, though probably a minority...

So that's something that could be worth paying for (or doing the work to get it another way, such as travel hacking).

But if you decide it isn't, then you might as well decide to be just as happy.  :)

[Bertram]

So that's something that could be worth paying for (or doing the work to get it another way, such as travel hacking).

But if you decide it isn't, then you might as well decide to be just as happy.  :)

Well, like I said I am definitely sure it's not worth paying for it to me (or working more). Eco-Flight are a clear thing of "good enough" for me. I'm just not able to do the mental gymnastics to find it equally joyful to fly eco or first class.

Maybe to generalize: I am an 80/20 guy, out of conviction, and I am happy whem something is at that sweetspot of input/output or cost/benefit. But at the same time I still appreciate the "beauty" of the remaining 19-20%, it does not entice me to do something about it and I doesn't make me feel unhappy. I am content with knowing it could be better.
And I actually feel bad about talking things down that are between 80% and 100%, because to me I'd feel like the fox in the fable with the grapes.

[ender]

The potential to have something more/better doesn't make what you have any less awesome.

[Ricky]

You're missing my main point: you don't have to choose to be unhappy in either of those situations.  :)

(And, given that, I disagree with your final sentence.  But I hesitated to say that, because I fear you'll focus on that.  I get it--you think you'd have a use for more money, because it could make you happier.  But it couldn't.  It would be you, choosing to be happier, that would do it.)

Ok, now I get what you are saying. I think that it's a pretty difficult thing to learn to be able to do that.

I am already there with cars, e.g., I've driven 100K+ cars and while it was an interesting experience, I know I would get more enjoyment out of cheaper cars. In fact I am planning to downgrade from a 60K car to a 30K car not due to savings but because I fully expect it to be more enjoyable in every aspect. ( Smaller, lighter, more engaged etc). I'd make the same choice if the cars cost the same.

But being a big guy and seeing how economy flights are getting worse and worse all the time... Just the space issue is painful.  I just don't see how I could bring myself to see it that way. To see it that way is like saying that watching half a movie is better than watching the full movie.

Yeah sure I am happy being able to fly, and overall flying coach is obviously good enough for me. But happy is not a binary thing.There are some things that I would enjoy more if I could spend more on it, just as mak said I find there is always some marginal utility to money. But I respect that some people feel differently, though probably a minority...

Sorry...but I had to point out this inconsistency. There obviously isn't "always" a marginal justification for something costing more, as you've found with cars.

Maybe there really are some things you'd enjoy more if you "could" spend more money on, but then there's plenty of things you wouldn't either. I don't think the "you get what you pay for" adage is binary either.

[Bertram]

Yes, I can confirm that both of you understood correctly what I was trying to say. : )

[mak1277]

But being a big guy and seeing how economy flights are getting worse and worse all the time... Just the space issue is painful.  I just don't see how I could bring myself to see it that way. To see it that way is like saying that watching half a movie is better than watching the full movie.

Yeah sure I am happy being able to fly, and overall flying coach is obviously good enough for me. But happy is not a binary thing.There are some things that I would enjoy more if I could spend more on it, just as mak said I find there is always some marginal utility to money. But I respect that some people feel differently, though probably a minority...

I did try and do enjoy whisky, bourbon, tobacco... and I am not planning on giving it up because it could save me money. Am I better off? Subjectively I would say yes.

Bertram did a much (much!) better job of explaining my point of view than I did, especially the part about happiness not being binary, but more of a sliding scale.  Am I happy that I'm able to fly somewhere amazing in a coach seat?  Sure am.  But I'm equally as sure that I would be even MORE happy if I was flying in the comfort of a first class seat.

Said another way, if you could chose between a middle seat and an aisle seat (a common, cost-free choice) would you really be 100% as happy in the middle seat?  I just don't think I can believe the answer to that question is ever 'yes'.

As for the person who suggested I lose weight...I might disappear if I did that. I'm 6'2 but could hide behind a flagpole...it's not the width that gives me a problem, it's the length. 

[Ricky]

But being a big guy and seeing how economy flights are getting worse and worse all the time... Just the space issue is painful.  I just don't see how I could bring myself to see it that way. To see it that way is like saying that watching half a movie is better than watching the full movie.

Yeah sure I am happy being able to fly, and overall flying coach is obviously good enough for me. But happy is not a binary thing.There are some things that I would enjoy more if I could spend more on it, just as mak said I find there is always some marginal utility to money. But I respect that some people feel differently, though probably a minority...

I did try and do enjoy whisky, bourbon, tobacco... and I am not planning on giving it up because it could save me money. Am I better off? Subjectively I would say yes.

Bertram did a much (much!) better job of explaining my point of view than I did, especially the part about happiness not being binary, but more of a sliding scale.  Am I happy that I'm able to fly somewhere amazing in a coach seat?  Sure am.  But I'm equally as sure that I would be even MORE happy if I was flying in the comfort of a first class seat.

Said another way, if you could chose between a middle seat and an aisle seat (a common, cost-free choice) would you really be 100% as happy in the middle seat?  I just don't think I can believe the answer to that question is ever 'yes'.

As for the person who suggested I lose weight...I might disappear if I did that. I'm 6'2 but could hide behind a flagpole...it's not the width that gives me a problem, it's the length.

That logic can be a slippery slope - as you're implying that the more we spend on goods and services, the happier we are. Where does it end? The more we spend on a more comfortable car, the happier we are. The more we spend on a more luxurious hotel room - the happier we are, right?

[mak1277]

But being a big guy and seeing how economy flights are getting worse and worse all the time... Just the space issue is painful.  I just don't see how I could bring myself to see it that way. To see it that way is like saying that watching half a movie is better than watching the full movie.

Yeah sure I am happy being able to fly, and overall flying coach is obviously good enough for me. But happy is not a binary thing.There are some things that I would enjoy more if I could spend more on it, just as mak said I find there is always some marginal utility to money. But I respect that some people feel differently, though probably a minority...

I did try and do enjoy whisky, bourbon, tobacco... and I am not planning on giving it up because it could save me money. Am I better off? Subjectively I would say yes.

Bertram did a much (much!) better job of explaining my point of view than I did, especially the part about happiness not being binary, but more of a sliding scale.  Am I happy that I'm able to fly somewhere amazing in a coach seat?  Sure am.  But I'm equally as sure that I would be even MORE happy if I was flying in the comfort of a first class seat.

Said another way, if you could chose between a middle seat and an aisle seat (a common, cost-free choice) would you really be 100% as happy in the middle seat?  I just don't think I can believe the answer to that question is ever 'yes'.

As for the person who suggested I lose weight...I might disappear if I did that. I'm 6'2 but could hide behind a flagpole...it's not the width that gives me a problem, it's the length.

That logic can be slippery slope - as you're implying that the more we spend on goods and services, the happier we are. The more we spend on a more comfortable car, the happier we are. The more we spend on a more luxurious hotel room - the happier we are, right? I get there are actual constraints like physical size that can make something unbearable - but there are other benefits than pure comfort that make make the coach seat more attractive like saving money or sitting next to someone who makes for good conversation.

I agree...and I'm certainly not trying to imply that enjoyment goes up just by spending more money.  I certainly don't apply that in my life (don't buy pricey cars or expensive clothes, live in a house that cost much less than I could afford, etc.).  The example might be different for everyone...I was using flights as something that was personal for me, to demonstrate that even if you're FI, there CAN be marginal utility to additional money.

You and I clearly value different things in air travel.  I prefer not to converse with people sitting next to me, and I'd much rather sleep, read or look out the window than talk to a stranger.  But I'm sure there is some example in your life where you could find marginal utility in money even after FI.

[Bertram]

I don't think we're argiung that it necessarily is the case for everything. But simply that the average life which the average FIREee has chosen for himself is decided by trade offs.
One aspect of this tradeoff is the amount of lifetime I have to trade in for something.
The other aspect is the utility I derive from it.

Now what I was trying to communicate is: Most FIREees do not chose a trade-off point where there is no maringal utility gain at all for more spending money, but rather choose a point where the marginal amount of extra life-time spent is not worth the marginal amount of extra utility. But once you skew either scale it's worth it to re-evaluate. If you can earn a lot more, with a lot less work, it makes sense to think about it, before deciding either way. I don't see why that seems like a foreign concept.

[Ricky]

Thanks PhysicianOnFIRE and Spartana.  Sometimes I feel quite isolated in my beliefs, even on a forum like this where I have much more in common with people than usual.  :)

Welcome to my world ;)! People are always telling me I'm denying myself a better quality of life because I don't spend more money (and that includes people on this forum) but they can't seem to understand that spending less is just a by product of living the life I want to and that spending more wouldn't enhance my life and might actually make it less enjoyable. For example,  I prefer to drink coffee at home rather than Starbucks, or  ride my bike instead of drive a nice car, or eat at home instead of a restaurant, etc... . The fact that my preferred lifestyle  costs me less and means I can live on less (and retire earlier) is just a nice by product of living the way I want to live. So throwing more money into my stash isn't going to enhance my life any more than it already is so why work longer just for money  if you have enough. So it's not whether you live on $10k/year or $100k/year, it's recognizing when you've reached enough for you. And yes I have given away my Starbucks gift cards and turned down many freebies  ;-).

I agree with everything you said. About 10k/yr vs $100k/yr: I think anyone who can be happy on $10k a year is ultimately better off since it should, in theory, take far less time to accumulate a stash to accommodate $10k a year. Lots of people here are "counting down the days" rather than "counting less wants". I guess in OP's situation it's different since he seems to be happy at his job and can't think of anything better he'd rather be doing - I just think that's a rare circumstance.

[arebelspy]

And yes I have given away my Starbucks gift cards and turned down many freebies  ;-).

Hah!  We've done that exact same thing. :)

[Cassie]

The research has shown that more of things does not equate more happiness. We all have a saturation point. Recently I was reading that if you make  75K/year that brings most people happiness and anything beyond that does not equate to much more happiness.  If wealth brought happiness then all the stars, pro-football players, etc would be happy and that is not the case.  I really believe we choose to be happy or not. life happens and we can't control it and we can experience profound sadness/loss but in the end we can still choose to be happy.  All we have to do is look at the Holocaust survivors to see this.  For a look at this read the books : Man's search for meaning, night, all but my life, anne frank's diary, etc.