Author Topic: What comes after the ACA?  (Read 308955 times)

Exflyboy

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1750 on: March 25, 2017, 11:45:52 AM »

 In other words, in the UK you are taxed just like you would be in California except that your health care is completely free.  As I hope you can see, my fellow Americans, you are being screwed over by the system in the US and the Republicans just tried to screw you over even more!  I hope someday the USA can join the rest of the civilised world....

So do I...so do many of us

Yeah America has some catching up to do.. I mean Bloody Sunday in Selma, Alabama happened in 1965 FFS! The rest of the world I remember my Parents in the UK being absolutely horrified watching the news for the lad of the free.. Dear God!

suds

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1751 on: March 26, 2017, 07:49:57 PM »

 In other words, in the UK you are taxed just like you would be in California except that your health care is completely free.  As I hope you can see, my fellow Americans, you are being screwed over by the system in the US and the Republicans just tried to screw you over even more!  I hope someday the USA can join the rest of the civilised world....

So do I...so do many of us

Yeah America has some catching up to do.. I mean Bloody Sunday in Selma, Alabama happened in 1965 FFS! The rest of the world I remember my Parents in the UK being absolutely horrified watching the news for the lad of the free.. Dear God!

I am not disagreeing, but that is a terrible example in reference to the UK. The 'Bloody Sunday' march of 1965 was a terrible, brutal act of violence - even worse because it was sanctioned by the local government. However, in perspective, noone died (except Reeb, who was lated murdered in connection with the event, but not during). 2 weeks later, they did the same march with protection from the federal government, so it's not like the whole country agreed with this. Most of the country who were not in the deep south were appalled by this.

7 years later.... and the UK has it's own Bloody Sunday, where the NATIONAL army kills a dozen peaceful protesters - because, oh, they were Irish...

Again, I am not really disagreeing with your point, but using an example of the horrible things America was doing 40 years ago, and then referencing how terrible they were in comparison to your own country who was also doing terrible things at the time just doesn't sit right.
Please - let's stop trying to fling intra-country mud here, its not particularly helpful in trying to figure out the best way forward for American healthcare.

sol

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1752 on: March 26, 2017, 09:55:04 PM »
Please - let's stop trying to fling intra-country mud here, its not particularly helpful

No way man, America rules and England drools.

Exflyboy

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1753 on: March 27, 2017, 12:23:25 AM »
Indeed America has some wonderful qualities, I mean if I didn't like it I simply wouldn't be here.

Sadly Healthcare is not one of those quality features. Whats more the culture here is such that a large enough portion of the population doesn't believe the US can learn anything from anyone else.

That I find to be pretty sad.

thenextguy

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1754 on: March 27, 2017, 12:11:12 PM »
What comes after the AHCA?

Glenstache

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1755 on: March 27, 2017, 12:27:29 PM »
What comes after the AHCA?

The ACA, apparently.

thenextguy

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1756 on: March 27, 2017, 01:59:03 PM »

tyort1

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1757 on: March 27, 2017, 06:55:46 PM »
What comes after the AHCA?

The ACA, apparently.

Round and round we go!

I think it's more a case of zero steps forward, zero steps back.
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chasesfish

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1758 on: March 27, 2017, 07:49:55 PM »
So, where does it go from here?  I'm a soon to be early retiree

I'm disappointed again that both sides can't work together, this thing is a long way from finished.

Is the ACA currently good for early retirees?  Heck yes. 
Is it sustainable?  Questionable.

I don't see how this works without requiring everyone to pay into the system.   You either need a two tiered system with baseline care provided by the government, or an enforced requirement for everyone to buy health insurance.   Withhold tax refunds until they have it and don't process all the refundable tax credits for the really poor.

We also still need to require medical providers to have one service, one price.  Period.   Uninsured, insured, Medicare, its all one price.

 Hell, the deficit run in 2016 would have required each man/woman/child to pay roughly $1500 more in federal taxes.  The solution of "make someone else pay for it" via tax this person, this company, isn't sustainable either.

Reality sucks

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EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1759 on: March 27, 2017, 08:02:09 PM »
At this point, now that I'm back in the US and things didn't get as bad as I ranted about, I'm actually very happy.  In a way, it's a little sad that I was braced for the worst (given the rapid descent of Airline USA) and now I'm happy the best airline in the world didn't crash although the pilot is balls.  I'm still wondering if I want to be a passenger on this 4-year flight, but at least I'm flying the best airline money can buy (for the time being).
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DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1760 on: March 27, 2017, 08:11:22 PM »
What are some of the ways they might do that [i.e., sabotage the ACA] without Democratic support?

Today's NY Times outlines some of the available options on the menu:  "Trump's Choice on Obamacare: Sabotage or Co-opt?"

Scary

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1761 on: March 27, 2017, 08:24:41 PM »
What are some of the ways they might do that [i.e., sabotage the ACA] without Democratic support?

Today's NY Times outlines some of the available options on the menu:  "Trump's Choice on Obamacare: Sabotage or Co-opt?"

Scary
It is quite troublesome that, instead of this administration learning anything from this episode, things will only get more polarized (within the fractious GOP especially).  This is, as Trump naively conceded, a complex issue, but it's something that you delve in to, then use some of your powers as President to determine a preferable path forward and bring Congress on board. 

I fear that nothing was learned and the GOP is becoming more desperate to show influence.
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jim555

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1762 on: March 28, 2017, 05:56:54 AM »
I was wondering about the enforcement of the Individual Mandate and the penalty tax.  The law is still on the books so I don't see how they can simply not enforce the law.  I read that a tax return that leaves blank the section on health insurance will not be rejected now.  But I don't see how that absolves the tax liability.  I think it is a Trump trap and people will find out later they are still on the hook for the penalty.

Gin1984

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1763 on: March 28, 2017, 07:09:01 AM »
So, where does it go from here?  I'm a soon to be early retiree

I'm disappointed again that both sides can't work together, this thing is a long way from finished.

Is the ACA currently good for early retirees?  Heck yes. 
Is it sustainable?  Questionable.

I don't see how this works without requiring everyone to pay into the system.   You either need a two tiered system with baseline care provided by the government, or an enforced requirement for everyone to buy health insurance.   Withhold tax refunds until they have it and don't process all the refundable tax credits for the really poor.

We also still need to require medical providers to have one service, one price.  Period.   Uninsured, insured, Medicare, its all one price.

 Hell, the deficit run in 2016 would have required each man/woman/child to pay roughly $1500 more in federal taxes.  The solution of "make someone else pay for it" via tax this person, this company, isn't sustainable either.

Reality sucks

.
If one group wants to destroy something that is good for your constituents with no solution except harming them, how exactly are you suppose to compromise?  This is a serious question.

chasesfish

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1764 on: March 28, 2017, 07:17:58 AM »
I thought there was some good and some bad in the new plan, just like there is with the ACA.  Tying the penalty to continuous coverage and having it go into the insurance pool for example was a positive. 

I think the ACA is doomed as soon as states loose all of the big 4 carriers.  Maybe that happens in 2018, maybe its 2019, but its coming.   Not enough payers, too many takers.

I stand by my prediction of one of two outcomes:

Switzerland style mandatory insurance OR Costa Rica style two tiered medicine with public providers and private providers.  Its the only two politically obtainable options.  I'm indifferent on which route we end up with.
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DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1765 on: March 28, 2017, 07:57:00 AM »

I think the ACA is doomed as soon as states loose all of the big 4 carriers.  Maybe that happens in 2018, maybe its 2019, but its coming.   Not enough payers, too many takers.


There are many states where the ACA individual marketplace is doing well, like California, and states with larger population. Where I am in Michigan there are lots of health insurance companies participating in the exchange.

The problem with losing carriers is generally in rural counties with few participants and not many hospitals.

protostache

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1766 on: March 28, 2017, 08:54:49 AM »
I was wondering about the enforcement of the Individual Mandate and the penalty tax.  The law is still on the books so I don't see how they can simply not enforce the law.  I read that a tax return that leaves blank the section on health insurance will not be rejected now.  But I don't see how that absolves the tax liability.  I think it is a Trump trap and people will find out later they are still on the hook for the penalty.

The only thing Trump's executive order changed was the IRS' timeline for automatically rejecting returns without a box checked, just as they've done since TY2014.

Filers who don't check a box and don't carry qualified coverage are absolutely still on the hook for the penalty. The IRS will generate a notice for every single one of them that demands they produce a 1095 or cold hard cash.

teen persuasion

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1767 on: March 28, 2017, 09:15:44 AM »


I think the ACA is doomed as soon as states loose all of the big 4 carriers.  Maybe that happens in 2018, maybe its 2019, but its coming.   Not enough payers, too many takers.


Health insurance is regional.  Who are the big 4 carriers?  In my area it is Independent Health, Univera, and BCBS.  Other parts of the state have different players.  I see insurance companies mentioned by posters from other parts of the country that seem to be big players, but don't exist in my state at all, and my market is said to be healthy.

tyort1

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1768 on: March 28, 2017, 10:13:03 AM »

I think the ACA is doomed as soon as states loose all of the big 4 carriers.  Maybe that happens in 2018, maybe its 2019, but its coming.   Not enough payers, too many takers.


There are many states where the ACA individual marketplace is doing well, like California, and states with larger population. Where I am in Michigan there are lots of health insurance companies participating in the exchange.

The problem with losing carriers is generally in rural counties with few participants and not many hospitals.

Between farm subsidies, sucking up all those Federal benefits dollars, and not even being able to carry their own weight on health insurance, the rural parts of this country sure are a bunch of takers.
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sol

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1769 on: March 28, 2017, 10:25:36 AM »
Between farm subsidies, sucking up all those Federal benefits dollars, and not even being able to carry their own weight on health insurance, the rural parts of this country sure are a bunch of takers.

Wait, you mean it's NOT unwed teenage mothers who are destroying America?

tyort1

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1770 on: March 28, 2017, 11:05:24 AM »
Between farm subsidies, sucking up all those Federal benefits dollars, and not even being able to carry their own weight on health insurance, the rural parts of this country sure are a bunch of takers.

Wait, you mean it's NOT unwed teenage mothers who are destroying America?

Nope.  Here's the map, you can see for yourself - the red states get more federal $$ than they contribute and the blue states take less federal $$ than they contribute.  Purple states are about net zero.  You might see a pattern here...

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stoaX

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1771 on: March 28, 2017, 12:55:21 PM »
Between farm subsidies, sucking up all those Federal benefits dollars, and not even being able to carry their own weight on health insurance, the rural parts of this country sure are a bunch of takers.

Wait, you mean it's NOT unwed teenage mothers who are destroying America?

Nope.  Here's the map, you can see for yourself - the red states get more federal $$ than they contribute and the blue states take less federal $$ than they contribute.  Purple states are about net zero.  You might see a pattern here...



Cool map - am I right that it is from 2005, like it says in the bottom right hand corner?  I wonder how things have changed now that we are more than a decade later.

tyort1

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1772 on: March 28, 2017, 01:50:55 PM »

Cool map - am I right that it is from 2005, like it says in the bottom right hand corner?  I wonder how things have changed now that we are more than a decade later.

2014 Data:

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PathtoFIRE

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1773 on: March 28, 2017, 02:33:55 PM »
That's not exactly the same info as the 2005 graphic

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1774 on: March 28, 2017, 03:07:41 PM »
That's not exactly the same info as the 2005 graphic

That's true but the two graphs taken together illustrate a trend.

stoaX

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1775 on: March 28, 2017, 03:35:34 PM »
That's not exactly the same info as the 2005 graphic

and it only gets us up to 2012.   Things have changed since then such as the money moving around between the feds and the states for ACA / Medicaid expansion. 

Mr. Green

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1776 on: March 28, 2017, 04:21:56 PM »
One of the things I'm concerned about is the potential for the Congress to cease funding for cost sharing in the ACA. The big 4 insurers have said if that goes away then they will no longer participate. We're in the verge of making some decisions about work that affect health insurance and I'm nervous about the prospect of giving up employer-based insurance right before a pregnancy and child birth, to potentially find ourselves in a situation where we now have to try and find jobs just for health insurance because it's other wise unaffordable or we're some how denied coverage.
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DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1777 on: March 28, 2017, 05:11:41 PM »
One of the things I'm concerned about is the potential for the Congress to cease funding for cost sharing in the ACA. The big 4 insurers have said if that goes away then they will no longer participate. We're in the verge of making some decisions about work that affect health insurance and I'm nervous about the prospect of giving up employer-based insurance right before a pregnancy and child birth, to potentially find ourselves in a situation where we now have to try and find jobs just for health insurance because it's other wise unaffordable or we're some how denied coverage.

I agree and sympathize. It's so chaotic, wish we had two parties that actually wanted to fix the ACA and improve on it.

tyort1

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1778 on: March 28, 2017, 05:42:31 PM »
That's not exactly the same info as the 2005 graphic

and it only gets us up to 2012.   Things have changed since then such as the money moving around between the feds and the states for ACA / Medicaid expansion.

Here's more recent data:  https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700/

The point is this - we could fix the deficit if the red states just stopped taking the money.  People talk about "welfare queens", but the true welfare queens seem to be farmers, small towns and rural America. 
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sol

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1779 on: March 28, 2017, 06:11:49 PM »
People talk about "welfare queens", but the true welfare queens seem to be farmers, small towns and rural America.

We've discussed this disparity before.  "Welfare queens" are a tiny tiny fraction of the free handouts that the US government gives out.  Most of those handouts go to rich people, not poor people.  Most of that tiny fraction that goes to poor people goes to rural white communities.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 06:22:51 PM by sol »

tyort1

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1780 on: March 28, 2017, 06:19:36 PM »
People talk about "welfare queens", but the true welfare queens seem to be farmers, small towns and rural America.

We've discussed this disparity before.  "Welfare queens" are a tiny tiny fraction of the free handouts that the US government gives out.  Most of those handouts go to rich people, not poor people.  Most of that tiny fraction that goes to poor people goes to rural white communities.

Interesting.  Thanks sol.
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DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1781 on: March 28, 2017, 08:07:23 PM »
"Wyoming’s cowboy mythology has helped its residents ignore the dynamic of federal reliance."

http://www.gillettenewsrecord.com/news/article_e9b925fc-8518-5326-a4db-bf5c01d67933.html

Paul der Krake

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1782 on: March 28, 2017, 08:57:00 PM »
The press is now reporting that there is another version of the replacement bill in the works.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/28/us/politics/health-care-obamacare-freedom-caucus.html

This is going to be fun.

Bateaux

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1783 on: March 28, 2017, 09:03:21 PM »
Woo hoo!  Louisiana here at number 2 and we love us some Trump no doubt.
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scantee

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1784 on: March 28, 2017, 09:13:05 PM »
The press is now reporting that there is another version of the replacement bill in the works.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/28/us/politics/health-care-obamacare-freedom-caucus.html

This is going to be fun.

Not going to happen. McConnell has already said, definitively, that the Senate will not be considering health care reform bills. These calls for new bills from House members are pure ass covering since they spent the last seven years crowing about repealing ACA only to give up the effort after a mere few weeks.

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1785 on: March 28, 2017, 10:12:21 PM »
We've discussed this disparity before.  "Welfare queens" are a tiny tiny fraction of the free handouts that the US government gives out.  Most of those handouts go to rich people, not poor people.  Most of that tiny fraction that goes to poor people goes to rural white communities.

That's not really fair accounting. So you take $100k from rich people then cut them some slack for $4k back; and you tax poor people $5k then give them back $1k in food stamps. You're still taxing the rich 96k and the poor 4k for the same societal benefits, yet you claim that the rich got more in return! That's just laughable.

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1786 on: March 29, 2017, 05:26:19 AM »
That's not really fair accounting. So you take $100k from rich people then cut them some slack for $4k back; and you tax poor people $5k then give them back $1k in food stamps. You're still taxing the rich 96k and the poor 4k for the same societal benefits, yet you claim that the rich got more in return! That's just laughable.

That's pretty disingenuous. The reason the poor don't get taxed that much is because, well, they're poor. You need to be making quite a bit more than 100k if you're in that tax bracket. Not that I have anything against the very rich, but pardon me if I don't feel anything for someone who has that much money. 1000 in food stamps doesn't go very far.

Your example doesn't even compare apples to oranges though. More like apples to, I dunno, fucking space meatballs or something.

Edited for clarity.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 09:19:34 AM by accolay »

radram

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1787 on: March 29, 2017, 06:31:51 AM »
1000k in food stamps doesn't go very far.

I am quite sure I could make 1 million dollars in food stamps go pretty far :)

Now THAT would be a welfare queen.

/sarcasm

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1788 on: March 29, 2017, 08:06:26 PM »
We've discussed this disparity before.  "Welfare queens" are a tiny tiny fraction of the free handouts that the US government gives out.  Most of those handouts go to rich people, not poor people.  Most of that tiny fraction that goes to poor people goes to rural white communities.

That's not really fair accounting. So you take $100k from rich people then cut them some slack for $4k back; and you tax poor people $5k then give them back $1k in food stamps. You're still taxing the rich 96k and the poor 4k for the same societal benefits, yet you claim that the rich got more in return! That's just laughable.

We should be more like Guatemala or Kazakhstan where income taxes are low.

infogoon

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1789 on: March 30, 2017, 07:42:15 AM »
We should be more like Guatemala or Kazakhstan where income taxes are low.

It's really strange how the "taxation is theft!" crowd never wants to move to a country with little or no taxation.

gerardc

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1790 on: March 30, 2017, 12:00:46 PM »
We should be more like Guatemala or Kazakhstan where income taxes are low.

It's really strange how the "taxation is theft!" crowd never wants to move to a country with little or no taxation.

You guys are missing the point as usual. The point is not that taxation is theft. Taxation need not be linear, it can be anything from constant to sub-linear, linear, and supra-linear in progressive taxation systems. Let's assume that an optimal tax rate (however you define optimality) ends up between 5% and 75%. We don't really know what that number is. So when we give a tax break to set one's rate from 35% back to 33%, and another one from 15% to 14%, we can't really look at the correction (the delta) and whine about it. We need to look at the big picture. We might actually get closer to the optimum. The point is nobody knows, and unless we have specific data about optimal taxation, we're just speculating / whining / wasting our time.

Scortius

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1791 on: March 30, 2017, 12:15:20 PM »
We should be more like Guatemala or Kazakhstan where income taxes are low.

It's really strange how the "taxation is theft!" crowd never wants to move to a country with little or no taxation.

You guys are missing the point as usual. The point is not that taxation is theft. Taxation need not be linear, it can be anything from constant to sub-linear, linear, and supra-linear in progressive taxation systems. Let's assume that an optimal tax rate (however you define optimality) ends up between 5% and 75%. We don't really know what that number is. So when we give a tax break to set one's rate from 35% back to 33%, and another one from 15% to 14%, we can't really look at the correction (the delta) and whine about it. We need to look at the big picture. We might actually get closer to the optimum. The point is nobody knows, and unless we have specific data about optimal taxation, we're just speculating / whining / wasting our time.

If you're talking about the Laffer Curve, I believe there is a wide body of evidence demonstrating that we are left of the optimum.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1792 on: March 30, 2017, 12:58:05 PM »
We should be more like Guatemala or Kazakhstan where income taxes are low.

It's really strange how the "taxation is theft!" crowd never wants to move to a country with little or no taxation.

You guys are missing the point as usual. The point is not that taxation is theft. Taxation need not be linear, it can be anything from constant to sub-linear, linear, and supra-linear in progressive taxation systems. Let's assume that an optimal tax rate (however you define optimality) ends up between 5% and 75%. We don't really know what that number is. So when we give a tax break to set one's rate from 35% back to 33%, and another one from 15% to 14%, we can't really look at the correction (the delta) and whine about it. We need to look at the big picture. We might actually get closer to the optimum. The point is nobody knows, and unless we have specific data about optimal taxation, we're just speculating / whining / wasting our time.

If you're talking about the Laffer Curve, I believe there is a wide body of evidence demonstrating that we are left of the optimum.

This thought experiment by Paul Krugman illustrates that the optimum tax rate has a lot to do with the effects of rising wages, leisure, and one's earnings status.

https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/10/the-laffer-test-somewhat-wonkish/

Mr Mark

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1793 on: March 30, 2017, 01:59:01 PM »
We should be more like Guatemala or Kazakhstan where income taxes are low.

It's really strange how the "taxation is theft!" crowd never wants to move to a country with little or no taxation.

What about a country where tax rates are the same but the public services are way better, like in terms of healthcare,  public education,  care of the old and indigent,  lower insurance,  and almost no capital gains tax at all?

It amazes me how much of the "debate" is about who pays what, rather than how much y'all pay and what you get for it.
Mr. Mark

marty998

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1794 on: March 30, 2017, 02:35:03 PM »
We should be more like Guatemala or Kazakhstan where income taxes are low.

It's really strange how the "taxation is theft!" crowd never wants to move to a country with little or no taxation.

What about a country where tax rates are the same but the public services are way better, like in terms of healthcare,  public education,  care of the old and indigent,  lower insurance,  and almost no capital gains tax at all?

It amazes me how much of the "debate" is about who pays what, rather than how much y'all pay and what you get for it.

Sounds like New Zealand.

Our old friend Gooki must out enjoying life. Haven't seen her around in a while...

Mr Mark

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1795 on: March 31, 2017, 03:54:00 AM »
^ well spotted!
Mr. Mark

jim555

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1796 on: March 31, 2017, 07:03:46 AM »
Nice article on the lawsuit to stop CSRs:

The bizarre lawsuit that could still blow up the ACA insurance markets
http://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/3/29/15107836/lawsuit-aca-payments-reimbursement-unconstitutional

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1797 on: March 31, 2017, 08:02:32 AM »
The overall costs for Medicare as well as for Medicaid/CHIP/individual insurance marketplace subsidies have come in lower than expected thanks to the reforms of Obamacare/ACA. The Republicans would have risked these cost savings by repealing ACA just so that they can get a tax cut to the top 1% earners using "Reconciliation" to pass budget legislation.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/news/2017/03/30/429602/new-data-deliver-good-news-health-care-bad-news-speaker-ryans-tax-reform-plan/

infogoon

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1798 on: March 31, 2017, 09:23:31 AM »
It amazes me how much of the "debate" is about who pays what, rather than how much y'all pay and what you get for it.

As someone posted earlier in this thread, watching Americans argue about risk pools and selling insurance policies across state lines while the rest of the world has long settled these problems is like watching us argue over whether a '74 Dart _really_ needs a catalytic converter while everyone in Europe drives electric cars.

Glenstache

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Re: What comes after the ACA?
« Reply #1799 on: March 31, 2017, 10:26:16 AM »
It amazes me how much of the "debate" is about who pays what, rather than how much y'all pay and what you get for it.

As someone posted earlier in this thread, watching Americans argue about risk pools and selling insurance policies across state lines while the rest of the world has long settled these problems is like watching us argue over whether a '74 Dart _really_ needs a catalytic converter while everyone in Europe drives electric cars.

I feel like this thread peaked with this post. Pithy and pretty much sums it up.