Author Topic: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?  (Read 15624 times)

Bicycle_B

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2016, 10:21:08 PM »
You could also look into carbon offsets.

https://www.nrdc.org/stories/should-you-buy-carbon-offsets

On the emotional side, learn to live your life.  All of us are responsible jointly yet each can only do our part, so do what you can do and live a well-rounded life.  Take actions on this issue, and where appropriate, make some effort - ride bike instead of drive car, cook beans instead of buy meat, plant trees.  Then do the rest of life as if what you did will work (everything will be ok, enjoy life's many aspects, assume your kids will be alive them too).  And live your life as if they will fail (it's hopeless, but we're alive, so enjoy life's many aspects.  Have kids if you want, because even if it's hopeless, we could be wrong!). 

The paragraph above is from the perspective of being 50.  My parents told me they thought maybe nuclear war would destroy us before I grew up.  I remember that being a possible thing even in the last stages of the Cold War - we even danced at college to songs about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La4Dcd1aUcE

And then the hole in the ozone layer was potentially going to end life on earth.  Later we danced to that too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1XEYZEU0Tg

What saved us wasn't the songs, it was a combination of protests and policy work and some daily actions.  But the songs show that while we're alive, there's hope.  So do some advocacy (voting, electing people who care, writing to officials, writing to companies) and some daily actions (beans, biking, chicken tractors) and some dancing.

PS.  OP, you're getting a lot of suggestions in this thread.  You're the only person who can modify the top post.  Would you summarize the suggestions as a postscript to your original post?  Then you and readers will have a roadmap.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 10:23:14 PM by Bicycle_B »

Tetsuya Hondo

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2016, 05:40:51 AM »
Maybe climate change will be completely irrelevant, as Mr. Carlin suggests. Maybe it'll have been catastrophic and we won't be here. It's fascinating to think about the possibilities.

Carlin was saying that it's only irrelevant in a cosmic sense. The outlook for humans may not be as bright:

"Save the planet?! The planet's not going anywhere! We are!"




franklin w. dixon

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2016, 06:45:47 AM »
Maybe climate change will be completely irrelevant, as Mr. Carlin suggests. Maybe it'll have been catastrophic and we won't be here. It's fascinating to think about the possibilities.

Carlin was saying that it's only irrelevant in a cosmic sense. The outlook for humans may not be as bright:

"Save the planet?! The planet's not going anywhere! We are!"
As the Great Helmsman, Mao Zedong, once said: "Even a nuclear war wouldn't be a big deal from the perspective of the solar system."

aceyou

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2016, 09:59:38 AM »

Vote for people who genuinely care about and have a track record for the environment...

some would argue you should also constrain this to those who have a chance to win. i'm not necessarily one of them.

Either way, I suppose the point is to make it a priority.  I'll personally be voting for Clinton because I believe she's the best candidate for the environment who can win(among other considerations).  However, that doesn't mean she's the person I'd choose if I could pick my own slate...far from:)  That said, each person can and should make the own decisions about how to cast their vote, so I don't want to argue what anyone other than myself should do at the polls. 

Helvegen

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2016, 11:04:00 AM »
Drives me nuts to hear soccer moms say how environmentally conscious they are....meanwhile they all drive large SUV's without fail and replace them every five years.  Biggest thing you can do is drive a fuel efficient car and drive it until the wheels fall off
The real kicker is that the most environmentally friendly thing you can do bar none is just not have any children or severely reduce the number of children you have.

http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/2009/jul/family-planning-major-environmental-emphasis
http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2102
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/12/why-we-should-have-fewer-children-save-the-planet-climate-change
http://www.npr.org/2016/08/18/479349760/should-we-be-having-kids-in-the-age-of-climate-change

Lose weight.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/04/obesity-makes-us-waste-more-than-a-billion-gallons-of-gas-every-year/256521/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-05/american-economy-has-a-weight-problem-as-costs-of-obesity-mount
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/global-shift-obesity-packs-serious-climate-consequences/

Eat less meat.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/mar/21/eat-less-meat-vegetarianism-dangerous-global-warming
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/30/how-meat-is-destroying-the-planet-in-seven-charts/
http://www.iflscience.com/environment/new-study-says-beef-10x-more-damaging-environment-chicken-pork-or-dairy-foods/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/watchdog/pork/
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 11:07:56 AM by Helvegen »

JCfire

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2016, 11:26:06 AM »
"The real kicker is that the most environmentally friendly thing you can do bar none is just not have any children or severely reduce the number of children you have."

Certainly that is more impactful than the possible total of things you can do to reduce your own personal consumption impact on the environment.

However, I think that the most environmentally friendly thing that you can do is probably contributing towards the advocacy of enivornmentally friendly causes, either by being an effective advocate yourself or donating a substantial fraction of your income towards organizations that do this sort of work.  By doing this for decades, it's very likely that you would make a cumulative impact much larger than the negative impact of one or even a few additional people.

Helvegen

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2016, 11:39:53 AM »
"The real kicker is that the most environmentally friendly thing you can do bar none is just not have any children or severely reduce the number of children you have."

Certainly that is more impactful than the possible total of things you can do to reduce your own personal consumption impact on the environment.

However, I think that the most environmentally friendly thing that you can do is probably contributing towards the advocacy of enivornmentally friendly causes, either by being an effective advocate yourself or donating a substantial fraction of your income towards organizations that do this sort of work.  By doing this for decades, it's very likely that you would make a cumulative impact much larger than the negative impact of one or even a few additional people.

Why not do both though?

I have more money to spend on those things precisely because I only have one child. I'd have even more if I had none.

RosieTR

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2016, 05:41:13 PM »
Vote.
Don't have any children (or any more than you do now).

Glenstache

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2016, 05:49:42 PM »
On further consideration, in addition to voting, you should also write to your representatives to support climate related legislation. This is an instance where we need broadly applied top-down regulation. Give state and federal legislators the demonstrable support to confidently support the bills (and their constituency). 

dilinger

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2016, 06:07:42 PM »
"The real kicker is that the most environmentally friendly thing you can do bar none is just not have any children or severely reduce the number of children you have."

Certainly that is more impactful than the possible total of things you can do to reduce your own personal consumption impact on the environment.

However, I think that the most environmentally friendly thing that you can do is probably contributing towards the advocacy of enivornmentally friendly causes, either by being an effective advocate yourself or donating a substantial fraction of your income towards organizations that do this sort of work.  By doing this for decades, it's very likely that you would make a cumulative impact much larger than the negative impact of one or even a few additional people.

And in some cases using your children for advocacy can help the cause greatly.  Do this [environmental pet cause] for the children! *raises his slobbery, grubby spawn for emphasis*


GetItRight

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2016, 01:15:24 PM »
Or is groupthink required on this board?

Yes, it seems groupthink is required when discussing any liberal issues or agenda. It's a religion to these people, no amount of logic, reason, or facts will reduce the amount of hatred in their knee-jerk emotional response. It seems like a religious thing for the lower level folks like here (holier than thou), but a financial and power over others issue for those higher up.

MOD NOTE: Don't troll.  Thanks.

I am simply simply stating anecdotal observations of patterns I've noticed both here and in general. I suspect arebelspy dislikes such anecdotes based on his opinions, and more specifically feelings, regarding the topic of this thread. Using his moderator status to dismiss what I said as trolling, and not to point out a specific grievance, could be construed as one of those knee-jerk emotional responses.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2016, 01:39:40 PM »
The real kicker is that the most environmentally friendly thing you can do bar none is just not have any children or severely reduce the number of children you have.

http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/2009/jul/family-planning-major-environmental-emphasis
http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2102
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/12/why-we-should-have-fewer-children-save-the-planet-climate-change
http://www.npr.org/2016/08/18/479349760/should-we-be-having-kids-in-the-age-of-climate-change

Lose weight.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/04/obesity-makes-us-waste-more-than-a-billion-gallons-of-gas-every-year/256521/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-05/american-economy-has-a-weight-problem-as-costs-of-obesity-mount
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/global-shift-obesity-packs-serious-climate-consequences/

Eat less meat.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/mar/21/eat-less-meat-vegetarianism-dangerous-global-warming
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/30/how-meat-is-destroying-the-planet-in-seven-charts/
http://www.iflscience.com/environment/new-study-says-beef-10x-more-damaging-environment-chicken-pork-or-dairy-foods/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/watchdog/pork/

Helvegen wins this thread.

Instructions unclear, murdered all my children before I realized "severely reduce number of children you have" was a different have then the have I was thinking of.

ketchup

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2016, 01:53:56 PM »
The real kicker is that the most environmentally friendly thing you can do bar none is just not have any children or severely reduce the number of children you have.

http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/2009/jul/family-planning-major-environmental-emphasis
http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2102
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/12/why-we-should-have-fewer-children-save-the-planet-climate-change
http://www.npr.org/2016/08/18/479349760/should-we-be-having-kids-in-the-age-of-climate-change

Lose weight.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/04/obesity-makes-us-waste-more-than-a-billion-gallons-of-gas-every-year/256521/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-05/american-economy-has-a-weight-problem-as-costs-of-obesity-mount
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/global-shift-obesity-packs-serious-climate-consequences/

Eat less meat.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/mar/21/eat-less-meat-vegetarianism-dangerous-global-warming
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/30/how-meat-is-destroying-the-planet-in-seven-charts/
http://www.iflscience.com/environment/new-study-says-beef-10x-more-damaging-environment-chicken-pork-or-dairy-foods/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/watchdog/pork/

Helvegen wins this thread.

Instructions unclear, murdered all my children before I realized "severely reduce number of children you have" was a different have then the have I was thinking of.
Just make sure you eat them afterwards so that you buy less meat.  But space it out over time so you lose weight too.

Digital Dogma

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2016, 02:03:37 PM »
Or is groupthink required on this board?

Yes, it seems groupthink is required when discussing any liberal issues or agenda. It's a religion to these people, no amount of logic, reason, or facts will reduce the amount of hatred in their knee-jerk emotional response. It seems like a religious thing for the lower level folks like here (holier than thou), but a financial and power over others issue for those higher up.

MOD NOTE: Don't troll.  Thanks.

I am simply simply stating anecdotal observations of patterns I've noticed both here and in general. I suspect arebelspy dislikes such anecdotes based on his opinions, and more specifically feelings, regarding the topic of this thread. Using his moderator status to dismiss what I said as trolling, and not to point out a specific grievance, could be construed as one of those knee-jerk emotional responses.
Its rather presumptuous and dismissive to declare an acknowledgement of anthropogenic climate change as a religious pursuit when there isn't a faith component to the argument, and you're implying that their beliefs are solely based on faith rather than fact. Logic,reason, and facts all have their place in science, however your argument seems to be a false proposition that assumes people cant understand the evidence for themselves so they're taking a researchers word on faith alone.

If you've got a logical, reasonable, fact based rebuttal to our understanding of anthropogenic climate change, I'd encourage you to engage the science community with your findings. Laying out your thesis in a thread which presumes our 200+ years of science surrounding anthropogenic climate change is so ambiguous that it can only be taken as faith and engaged with religious fervor is likely going to be met with the assumption that you're trolling to engage in a political argument outside of the threads scope.

I'd say you're misinterpreting people's unwillingness to waste their time on rehashing the same basic highschool science topics with hatred. Its really not much different from trying to engage in a serious argument about science with flat-earthers, creationists, and ghost hunters.

Northwestie

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2016, 02:30:00 PM »
.....and all this adds up to negligible effects to the amount of carbon in the atmosphere to date.  Pending a miracle (fusion, immediate removal of all gas/diesel vehicles) we will see ever increasing amounts of carbon in the atmosphere and the corresponding effects.
Well that sort of depends on your definition of negligible! I was having this same conversation with someone the other day and I've become downright optimistic about climate emissions at least as far as electrical generation goes...

As for the amount of electricity produced by renewables and whether the climate impact "matters," there are a couple ways of looking at it. First, to use the US as an example, the fraction of renewables (Wind/Water/Solar) in the overall electric mix has been growing at around .75% per year for a decade (from like 6% to 14%, sth like that). USA generation is like 4,000 TWH. So compared to what we were doing previously, "new" renewables have generated like 4800 TWH in the past 10 years. Production of 4800 TWH from coal fired generation would produce ~5b tons of CO2. And current global emissions are around 10b tons/yr, so whatever "carbon budget" you accept, new renewables in the USA in the past 10 years have earned us an extra 6 months. That's not a lot, but it's not nothing, and it's only from one foot-dragging coal burnin crap country which is hardly even trying.

Or to put it a different way, 10 years ago carbon emissions were rising very rapidly. If you accept a carbon budget of, say, 1000 billion tons, it looked like we were going to crack through the budget in ~2048. Now, in 2016, it looks like emissions are at peak. World emissions have been flat for two years and there is good reason they will remain flat at close to 10b tons in 2015-16. At the present rate of emissions we have 42 years left before we hit 1000 billion tons. So compared to what things looked like a decade ago, we've gained a decade to get our shit together. That's not nothing!

Too little too late.  The IPPC consensus is that atmospheric CO2 at 350 ppm is the threshold for major change - we are already at 390 ppm and rising at 2 ppm per year.  And if methane is added then total current carbon levels are about 435 ppm Even if all carbon inputs stopped immediately the earth's average temperature would continue to rise for an estimated century or so.

So hurray for us , hurray for us!!  We are starting to bend the curve.  Yea, great.  As I said, I've been attending these conferences for a decade and a half and we've blown by all the previous estimates.   To seriously make a difference the US would have to immediately stop all production of carbon-fuel cars and power plants and let those run the course of life span. 


I don't know where your data comes from - but the latest available report on carbon inputs in the U.S. still show us increasing 1% a year -- and the primary reason it is not greater is because of a very modest GDP increase during the recent past.  http://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/carbon/pdf/2014_co2analysis.pdf

So we are making some progress -- but really, it is not making dent in the issues.  China's estimates for the amount of coal reduction have proved unreliable and or downright false

BEIJING — China, the world’s leading emitter of greenhouse gases from coal, has been burning up to 17 percent more coal a year than the government previously disclosed, according to newly released data. The finding could complicate the already difficult efforts to limit global warming.

Then wait as all those new drivers in China and India come on-line.

Then there are practicalities.  Wind and solar work great - when the wind blows and when the sun shines.  On the west coast we have a glut of power now during the day -- that cannot be stored.  Sure - maybe in a decade or two we will make some advances, and I would agree that is a great thing.  But it is not going to help places like Norfolk, VA or the Florida coast, which is already experiencing sea level rise problems and infrastructure. 

It's going to get worse.  A lot worse.   So yea, we'll make some advances that may help the planet cool back down in 150 - 300 years.  But in my lifetime, your lifetime, your kids, and their grandkids.  Nope.   We screwed the pooch and will be paying for it in displacement, infrastructure costs, environmental degradation, and affected lives. 

TomTX

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2016, 06:48:27 PM »

Then there are practicalities.  Wind and solar work great - when the wind blows and when the sun shines.  On the west coast we have a glut of power now during the day -- that cannot be stored.  Sure - maybe in a decade or two we will make some advances, and I would agree that is a great thing.  But it is not going to help places like Norfolk, VA or the Florida coast, which is already experiencing sea level rise problems and infrastructure. 

It's going to get worse.  A lot worse.   So yea, we'll make some advances that may help the planet cool back down in 150 - 300 years.  But in my lifetime, your lifetime, your kids, and their grandkids.  Nope.   We screwed the pooch and will be paying for it in displacement, infrastructure costs, environmental degradation, and affected lives.

You apparently missed it, but we are at the point where we don't need* any technological advances. Solar is cheap enough and good enough, wind is cheap enough and good enough that we could replace virtually all the fossil fuel plants on the US grid. Add some HVDC connections for longer-distance transfer of power and leave most of the NG plants on standby as "peaker" plants, emitting less than 5% of what we do today. If we intelligently use Canadian hydro, we can use that for peaking and dump all the NG plants too.

Electric car technology is good enough to replace the gasoline car. Today. Hell, it was good enough in 2012 when Tesla introduced the Model S.

We can plant more vegetation to absorb CO2.

We are now at a point where it's just a matter of DOING IT. We are not constrained by needing advances in technology. We just need to use what we already have proven.

*They can certainly help.

franklin w. dixon

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2016, 06:50:21 PM »
Too little too late.  The IPPC consensus is that atmospheric CO2 at 350 ppm is the threshold for major change - we are already at 390 ppm and rising at 2 ppm per year.  And if methane is added then total current carbon levels are about 435 ppm Even if all carbon inputs stopped immediately the earth's average temperature would continue to rise for an estimated century or so.

So hurray for us , hurray for us!!  We are starting to bend the curve.  Yea, great.  As I said, I've been attending these conferences for a decade and a half and we've blown by all the previous estimates.   To seriously make a difference the US would have to immediately stop all production of carbon-fuel cars and power plants and let those run the course of life span. 


I don't know where your data comes from - but the latest available report on carbon inputs in the U.S. still show us increasing 1% a year -- and the primary reason it is not greater is because of a very modest GDP increase during the recent past.  http://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/carbon/pdf/2014_co2analysis.pdf

So we are making some progress -- but really, it is not making dent in the issues.  China's estimates for the amount of coal reduction have proved unreliable and or downright false

BEIJING — China, the world’s leading emitter of greenhouse gases from coal, has been burning up to 17 percent more coal a year than the government previously disclosed, according to newly released data. The finding could complicate the already difficult efforts to limit global warming.

Then wait as all those new drivers in China and India come on-line.

Then there are practicalities.  Wind and solar work great - when the wind blows and when the sun shines.  On the west coast we have a glut of power now during the day -- that cannot be stored.  Sure - maybe in a decade or two we will make some advances, and I would agree that is a great thing.  But it is not going to help places like Norfolk, VA or the Florida coast, which is already experiencing sea level rise problems and infrastructure. 

It's going to get worse.  A lot worse.   So yea, we'll make some advances that may help the planet cool back down in 150 - 300 years.  But in my lifetime, your lifetime, your kids, and their grandkids.  Nope.   We screwed the pooch and will be paying for it in displacement, infrastructure costs, environmental degradation, and affected lives.
Yea I don't think we really disagree at all I guess my "optimism" is like "Good news: it may only be devastating, rather than apocalyptic."

shelivesthedream

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2016, 01:33:33 AM »
So the advice in this thread seems to have broadly fallen into three categories:

1. Don't worry so much about it. Maybe get therapy if it becomes pathological.
2. Deal with the big hitters in your own life (meat, car, flights, etc) and the small stuff if you can but don't worry too much.
3. Vote for those at any level of the political system who will positively impact environmental policy.

These are good things. But I'm surprised no one has mentioned teaching or volunteering. It's all well and good the OP changing their own life but it sounds like they want to have a wider impact. Getting involved with community projects or local organisations is a great way to have a tangible impact on the ground. It could be anything from working in a community garden to leading a workshop on energy efficiency in the home to running a walking bus to school. It is a way of helping others become more environmentally friendly without being a sanctimonious butthead, because you are actually helping and not just preaching.

The OP could also consider their investment strategy and whether it could focus on environmental projects. For example, a leaflet recently came through my door about investing in a solar farm as an actual investment rather than a donation. Such opportunities should be carefully researched on both financial and environmental grounds, but it's a way to make your stash work for both you and others. The OP might also consider buying rental houses and eco-retrofitting them.

The OP could also donate money to some kind of environmental charity, although I imagine the emotional satisfaction wouldn't quite hit the spot.

I would recommend the OP read a book called "The Utopia Experiment" by Dylan Evans. It's a quick read and seems very very pertinent to their situation.

Northwestie

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2016, 09:28:32 AM »

Then there are practicalities.  Wind and solar work great - when the wind blows and when the sun shines.  On the west coast we have a glut of power now during the day -- that cannot be stored.  Sure - maybe in a decade or two we will make some advances, and I would agree that is a great thing.  But it is not going to help places like Norfolk, VA or the Florida coast, which is already experiencing sea level rise problems and infrastructure. 

It's going to get worse.  A lot worse.   So yea, we'll make some advances that may help the planet cool back down in 150 - 300 years.  But in my lifetime, your lifetime, your kids, and their grandkids.  Nope.   We screwed the pooch and will be paying for it in displacement, infrastructure costs, environmental degradation, and affected lives.

You apparently missed it, but we are at the point where we don't need* any technological advances. Solar is cheap enough and good enough, wind is cheap enough and good enough that we could replace virtually all the fossil fuel plants on the US grid. Add some HVDC connections for longer-distance transfer of power and leave most of the NG plants on standby as "peaker" plants, emitting less than 5% of what we do today. If we intelligently use Canadian hydro, we can use that for peaking and dump all the NG plants too.

Electric car technology is good enough to replace the gasoline car. Today. Hell, it was good enough in 2012 when Tesla introduced the Model S.

We can plant more vegetation to absorb CO2.

We are now at a point where it's just a matter of DOING IT. We are not constrained by needing advances in technology. We just need to use what we already have proven.

*They can certainly help.

The only problem is that "doing it" isn't making a dent in the trend

Northwestie

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2016, 09:29:54 AM »
Too little too late.  The IPPC consensus is that atmospheric CO2 at 350 ppm is the threshold for major change - we are already at 390 ppm and rising at 2 ppm per year.  And if methane is added then total current carbon levels are about 435 ppm Even if all carbon inputs stopped immediately the earth's average temperature would continue to rise for an estimated century or so.

So hurray for us , hurray for us!!  We are starting to bend the curve.  Yea, great.  As I said, I've been attending these conferences for a decade and a half and we've blown by all the previous estimates.   To seriously make a difference the US would have to immediately stop all production of carbon-fuel cars and power plants and let those run the course of life span. 


I don't know where your data comes from - but the latest available report on carbon inputs in the U.S. still show us increasing 1% a year -- and the primary reason it is not greater is because of a very modest GDP increase during the recent past.  http://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/carbon/pdf/2014_co2analysis.pdf

So we are making some progress -- but really, it is not making dent in the issues.  China's estimates for the amount of coal reduction have proved unreliable and or downright false

BEIJING — China, the world’s leading emitter of greenhouse gases from coal, has been burning up to 17 percent more coal a year than the government previously disclosed, according to newly released data. The finding could complicate the already difficult efforts to limit global warming.

Then wait as all those new drivers in China and India come on-line.

Then there are practicalities.  Wind and solar work great - when the wind blows and when the sun shines.  On the west coast we have a glut of power now during the day -- that cannot be stored.  Sure - maybe in a decade or two we will make some advances, and I would agree that is a great thing.  But it is not going to help places like Norfolk, VA or the Florida coast, which is already experiencing sea level rise problems and infrastructure. 

It's going to get worse.  A lot worse.   So yea, we'll make some advances that may help the planet cool back down in 150 - 300 years.  But in my lifetime, your lifetime, your kids, and their grandkids.  Nope.   We screwed the pooch and will be paying for it in displacement, infrastructure costs, environmental degradation, and affected lives.
Yea I don't think we really disagree at all I guess my "optimism" is like "Good news: it may only be devastating, rather than apocalyptic."

That's about the summary of events - I suppose there is a decent chance things will get better after getting worse. 

GuitarStv

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2016, 09:35:02 AM »
Too little too late.  The IPPC consensus is that atmospheric CO2 at 350 ppm is the threshold for major change - we are already at 390 ppm and rising at 2 ppm per year.  And if methane is added then total current carbon levels are about 435 ppm Even if all carbon inputs stopped immediately the earth's average temperature would continue to rise for an estimated century or so.

So hurray for us , hurray for us!!  We are starting to bend the curve.  Yea, great.  As I said, I've been attending these conferences for a decade and a half and we've blown by all the previous estimates.   To seriously make a difference the US would have to immediately stop all production of carbon-fuel cars and power plants and let those run the course of life span. 


I don't know where your data comes from - but the latest available report on carbon inputs in the U.S. still show us increasing 1% a year -- and the primary reason it is not greater is because of a very modest GDP increase during the recent past.  http://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/carbon/pdf/2014_co2analysis.pdf

So we are making some progress -- but really, it is not making dent in the issues.  China's estimates for the amount of coal reduction have proved unreliable and or downright false

BEIJING — China, the world’s leading emitter of greenhouse gases from coal, has been burning up to 17 percent more coal a year than the government previously disclosed, according to newly released data. The finding could complicate the already difficult efforts to limit global warming.

Then wait as all those new drivers in China and India come on-line.

Then there are practicalities.  Wind and solar work great - when the wind blows and when the sun shines.  On the west coast we have a glut of power now during the day -- that cannot be stored.  Sure - maybe in a decade or two we will make some advances, and I would agree that is a great thing.  But it is not going to help places like Norfolk, VA or the Florida coast, which is already experiencing sea level rise problems and infrastructure. 

It's going to get worse.  A lot worse.   So yea, we'll make some advances that may help the planet cool back down in 150 - 300 years.  But in my lifetime, your lifetime, your kids, and their grandkids.  Nope.   We screwed the pooch and will be paying for it in displacement, infrastructure costs, environmental degradation, and affected lives.
Yea I don't think we really disagree at all I guess my "optimism" is like "Good news: it may only be devastating, rather than apocalyptic."

That's about the summary of events - I suppose there is a decent chance things will get better after getting worse. 

Sadly, it won't be much solace to tell all of the climate change deniers (or the more recent breed - climate change EVERYTHING'S PERFECTLY OKers) that they were wrong when we're all suffering.

Glenstache

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2016, 10:27:38 AM »
Slightly off topic, but on the voting thing, don't vote Johnson (see clip below, wait for the end for the zinger!), and Trump is a flat out denier.

Johnson answering a question on climate change (from 2011):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxREh8vzoGo

Trump from the horse's mouth (how can one person have this much crazy?):
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/265895292191248385?lang=en

moof

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2016, 12:14:45 PM »
If quoting Crichton isn't climate denialism, I don't know what is.


OP, concentrate on the large things, like dilinger wrote. Don't stress about it.

1) Bike or take mass transit rather than driving solo in a large car or SUV.
2) Limit flights, especially intercontinental flights (sorry, travelers).
3) Live in a smaller apartment or house. Less to heat, less to clean, and better for the environment.
4) Stop buying useless plastic shit.

Those are the big ones. Most of the the other things you can do, like recycling, pale in comparison (it's first "Reduce," and then "Reuse, and Recycle").

Good advice, and I'll add one more:
5) Turn electronics off that you are not using, especially in summer and afternoon/evening.

I work in an office, which at least has timers and motion sensors for lights (still not common in many offices), but these are about 1 hour long timers.  The two conference rooms next to my cube each have about 500 W of fluorescent lights in them, and some ~500W large screen monitors (instead of projectors).  Nobody manually turns them off except me, it is like leaving a hair dryer running for an hour and not caring.  WTF?  On average my turning them off when the rooms are empty saves about 3-5 kWh a day, or at least 60 kWh a month.  In summer the AC has to work extra hard, taking another ~50% more at the worst possible time of the day (higher percentage of power from non-hydroelectric and wind power).

At home we use the timer on the dishwasher to run it after midnight when my region is almost entirely running on hydro and wind.  Time of use and the make up of your power supply makes a big difference in how how bad your electricity consumption hurts the environment.

Regarding flights, in rough number a plane is about 50 passenger-mpg.  Driving solo long distances in anything worse than a Prius is worse overall.  A mini-van with 3 or more occupants beats flying if you have to travel.  Minimizing the total number of miles traveled is an easier metric to keep in my head.

My personal biggest fear for global climate change is if we manage to mess up the oceans enough to cause a mass die-off.  Ocean warming can result in less oxygen in the water, killing off large swaths of life in short order, resulting in lots of toxic gases produced.  We fear asteroids more than an ocean die-off, even though most of the pre-historic mass extinctions were ocean collapse based.


TomTX

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2016, 01:24:06 PM »

The only problem is that "doing it" isn't making a dent in the trend

You seem incapable of distinguishing between "the trend is changing" and "the problem is solved."

The trend is changing. Darn rapidly for the electric grid, given that most installations have 40+ year lifespans.

Coal use is cut in half in the last 10 years. Wind and solar are up a thousand percent in the same timeframe.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 01:26:52 PM by TomTX »

Fishindude

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #76 on: September 23, 2016, 01:27:39 PM »
Go to an Amish, homesteading, living off the land, no electricity, no gas engines, lifestyle and don't have any children.

Ambergris

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #77 on: September 23, 2016, 02:07:27 PM »
OK, I'm just throwing my oar in because its one of my pet peeves, but the following:

In the words of Michael Crichton:

"Let’s be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world.

In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus. There is no such thing as consensus science. If it’s consensus, it isn’t science. If it’s science, it isn’t consensus. Period."


...is so wrong it hurts. xkcd-staying-up-till-3am-because-someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet hurts.

To see why its wrong, just ask yourself the following question: how do we know when a scientific investigator has got it right? Even better, how do we know when a scientific investigator has got it wrong? "Verified by reference to the real world" may be absolutely true or false of any scientific claim, but determining when verification has happened is not anything like as simple as it might initially sound. Running results through a community that checks and verifies and reproduces and debates (via lots of different means) is not "politics", it is how the we get to move from initial results to knowledge. Its necessity is due to the limits of human understanding and scientific methodology. Scientific consensus is not some kind of stupid democratic vote, it is a register of the fact that those in the community whose job it is to check the work are satisfied that it has in fact been verified. It is an indicator that a set of results is as close to correct as we can hope them to be. The bigger the consensus, the more checkers who are satisfied, the less likely it is that there are any remaining problems.

Science, all science, whether physics or economics or biology or psychology or chemistry or geology or climate science is fundamentally a community phenomenon, not something done by individual investigators. No-one can really do science on their own.

I'll shut up now or the minor derail will become major.

Northwestie

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2016, 02:28:04 PM »

The only problem is that "doing it" isn't making a dent in the trend

You seem incapable of distinguishing between "the trend is changing" and "the problem is solved."

The trend is changing. Darn rapidly for the electric grid, given that most installations have 40+ year lifespans.

Coal use is cut in half in the last 10 years. Wind and solar are up a thousand percent in the same timeframe.

Well my question is -- what is the goal?  If it is to change our input of carbon so that it changes the amount of carbon in and going into the atmosphere - enough that it makes a difference in the next three generations -- then a resounding no - we are not doing anything remotely close to this.

If we want to make changes in our electrical system and put up some magical thinking metric that makes us FEEL as if we're doing something.  Then yes, we are well on to that goal.

The trend in how we produce electricity is changing - but the amount of change in carbon input is drastically insignificant to make any substantial change in the amount of carbon in the atmosphere or to reduce any of the corresponding climate effects. 

So yea, let's give ourselves an awesome high five.  But the idea that the rate of change is anything that is affecting climate change is a false narrative we build for ourselves.

Bicycle_B

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #79 on: September 24, 2016, 12:00:04 AM »

The only problem is that "doing it" isn't making a dent in the trend

You seem incapable of distinguishing between "the trend is changing" and "the problem is solved."

The trend is changing. Darn rapidly for the electric grid, given that most installations have 40+ year lifespans.

Coal use is cut in half in the last 10 years. Wind and solar are up a thousand percent in the same timeframe.

Well my question is -- what is the goal?  If it is to change our input of carbon so that it changes the amount of carbon in and going into the atmosphere - enough that it makes a difference in the next three generations -- then a resounding no - we are not doing anything remotely close to this.

If we want to make changes in our electrical system and put up some magical thinking metric that makes us FEEL as if we're doing something.  Then yes, we are well on to that goal.

The trend in how we produce electricity is changing - but the amount of change in carbon input is drastically insignificant to make any substantial change in the amount of carbon in the atmosphere or to reduce any of the corresponding climate effects. 

So yea, let's give ourselves an awesome high five.  But the idea that the rate of change is anything that is affecting climate change is a false narrative we build for ourselves.

The current rate of change isn't enough to guarantee that nothing bad will happen. 

But it's pretty fast compared to past results, and some predictions.  It's fast enough to indicate that, depending on further improvements, we might be able to head off some of the worst possibilities.  It's going to be a while before we can tell. We don't know how fast the positive trends will accelerate, just as we don't know exactly when/if various negative feedback loops will occur (eg, release of methane hydrates from ocean floor).  Inaccurate pessimism is no better than inaccurate optimism - it's just as "false."

If MMM's "Optimism Gun" article is right, too much pessimism might be worse than too much optimism.  Optimism at least can lead to action when facing uncertainty.  Hopelessness leads to inaction.  Since we don't really know what will happen, we should act.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 12:13:27 AM by Bicycle_B »

TomTX

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #80 on: September 24, 2016, 07:57:40 AM »
Agreed, we absolutely need to keep pressing forward.

Metric Mouse

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #81 on: October 10, 2016, 02:01:33 AM »
Too little too late.  The IPPC consensus is that atmospheric CO2 at 350 ppm is the threshold for major change - we are already at 390 ppm and rising at 2 ppm per year.  And if methane is added then total current carbon levels are about 435 ppm Even if all carbon inputs stopped immediately the earth's average temperature would continue to rise for an estimated century or so.

So hurray for us , hurray for us!!  We are starting to bend the curve.  Yea, great.  As I said, I've been attending these conferences for a decade and a half and we've blown by all the previous estimates.   To seriously make a difference the US would have to immediately stop all production of carbon-fuel cars and power plants and let those run the course of life span. 


I don't know where your data comes from - but the latest available report on carbon inputs in the U.S. still show us increasing 1% a year -- and the primary reason it is not greater is because of a very modest GDP increase during the recent past.  http://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/carbon/pdf/2014_co2analysis.pdf

So we are making some progress -- but really, it is not making dent in the issues.  China's estimates for the amount of coal reduction have proved unreliable and or downright false

BEIJING — China, the world’s leading emitter of greenhouse gases from coal, has been burning up to 17 percent more coal a year than the government previously disclosed, according to newly released data. The finding could complicate the already difficult efforts to limit global warming.

Then wait as all those new drivers in China and India come on-line.

Then there are practicalities.  Wind and solar work great - when the wind blows and when the sun shines.  On the west coast we have a glut of power now during the day -- that cannot be stored.  Sure - maybe in a decade or two we will make some advances, and I would agree that is a great thing.  But it is not going to help places like Norfolk, VA or the Florida coast, which is already experiencing sea level rise problems and infrastructure. 

It's going to get worse.  A lot worse.   So yea, we'll make some advances that may help the planet cool back down in 150 - 300 years.  But in my lifetime, your lifetime, your kids, and their grandkids.  Nope.   We screwed the pooch and will be paying for it in displacement, infrastructure costs, environmental degradation, and affected lives.
Yea I don't think we really disagree at all I guess my "optimism" is like "Good news: it may only be devastating, rather than apocalyptic."

That's about the summary of events - I suppose there is a decent chance things will get better after getting worse.

I like the positive attitude! Not very actionable advice (because there's nothing that can now be done to mitigate global warming) but should help people stop worrying about it so much.

GuitarStv

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2016, 05:32:29 AM »
I like the positive attitude! Not very actionable advice (because there's nothing that can now be done to mitigate global warming) but should help people stop worrying about it so much.

That's not true at all.  There's nothing that can be done to stop some level of climate change.  There's plenty that can be done to mitigate global warming. 

Metric Mouse

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Re: what can I do and can't I do about global climate change?
« Reply #83 on: October 10, 2016, 12:01:32 PM »
I like the positive attitude! Not very actionable advice (because there's nothing that can now be done to mitigate global warming) but should help people stop worrying about it so much.

That's not true at all.  There's nothing that can be done to stop some level of climate change.  There's plenty that can be done to mitigate global warming.

Sorry. You are correct; my earlier post was inaccurately worded.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!