What are your thoughts on the illegal immigration crisis?

[davisgang90]

Put politics aside. Put compassion aside. What are your financial thoughts on it and how it may impact you and your family?

Is it no big deal?  How much would be too much?  Do we need more of it?

I'd like to hear the opinions of this community that obviously spends a fair amount of time thinking about profits and losses an log term investments and the impact of costs and inflation.

Seeing as how my parents came here illegally and I have double nationality, we need more of it so my other family members can come here as well and enjoy the opportunities given to lazy Americans :) Hispanics are the largest minority in the US so eventually todos vamos a hablar Español. Plus it would mean no longer having to use Western Union every month.

I speak Català so I should start brushing up on my Castellano. La Reconquista is coming. Slowly but surely :D

Lol true indeed sir. If anything this will improve the intelligence level of Americans since speaking more than one language develops the brain to a higher degree. I never understand why people bring up illegal immigration, nothing will ever stop it. We'll keep coming over as long as there is good money to be made. We don't care about borders or laws :)

Give me your address and I'll come by and help myself to your stuff since you don't care about laws.

[YK-Phil]

Give me your address and I'll come by and help myself to your stuff since you don't care about laws.

As my other half of the family (including five children) who are North American Natives will attest, you already did.

[thepokercab]

Give me your address and I'll come by and help myself to your stuff since you don't care about laws.

As my other half of the family (including five children) who are North American Natives will attest, you already did.

Come now.  We all know that when white people move in and displace the natives its exploration not illegal immigration.  Let's stay on topic here.

/sarcasm
 

[Huffy2k]

White people, cancer to society. ..


/sarcasm

[YK-Phil]

White people, cancer to society. ..


/sarcasm

Depends on which society, and which white people. It's open to debate, but not here. However, if you happened to be from a group or nation or religion or ethnicity that has been enslaved, dispossessed, expelled from their homeland, abused in more ways than one, exposed to genocide, and other crimes against humanity, you are correct. No sarcasm.

[thepokercab]

White people, cancer to society. ..


/sarcasm

Not to derail the thread, but you've at least got to admit that history has a sense of humor.  The ancestors of the people trying to immigrate today had no interest in going anywhere, but european states, including the U.S,  invaded their land, stole their resources, and built their empires off the backs of the slave labor they provided.

Now, fast forward to today, these shining empires exist, and when the descendants of the people who got raped and pillaged and enslaved; whose labor and land and resources went in to building these shining empires; when they want in on a little of the action, they get a "whoa, hold on now- people can't just go where ever they want!  We've got laws!!" 

To me, that's history having a big fucking laugh.   

[Simple Abundant Living]

Here's an article that illustrates the current issue of refugee children.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/13/opinion/sunday/a-refugee-crisis-not-an-immigration-crisis.html?_r=0&referrer=

If you were in a burning building, you'd jump too.

[davisgang90]

White people, cancer to society. ..


/sarcasm

Depends on which society, and which white people. It's open to debate, but not here. However, if you happened to be from a group or nation or religion or ethnicity that has been enslaved, dispossessed, expelled from their homeland, abused in more ways than one, exposed to genocide, and other crimes against humanity, you are correct. No sarcasm.

That is every people in the history of the planet.  My people were enslaved in Europe as well so get over yourself.

[YK-Phil]

White people, cancer to society. ..


/sarcasm

Depends on which society, and which white people. It's open to debate, but not here. However, if you happened to be from a group or nation or religion or ethnicity that has been enslaved, dispossessed, expelled from their homeland, abused in more ways than one, exposed to genocide, and other crimes against humanity, you are correct. No sarcasm.

That is every people in the history of the planet.  My people were enslaved in Europe as well so get over yourself.

My bike was stolen. I'll just steal the next bike I see. Get over it, and move on. Logical indeed.

[davisgang90]

White people, cancer to society. ..


/sarcasm

Depends on which society, and which white people. It's open to debate, but not here. However, if you happened to be from a group or nation or religion or ethnicity that has been enslaved, dispossessed, expelled from their homeland, abused in more ways than one, exposed to genocide, and other crimes against humanity, you are correct. No sarcasm.

That is every people in the history of the planet.  My people were enslaved in Europe as well so get over yourself.

My bike was stolen. I'll just steal the next bike I see. Get over it, and move on. Logical indeed.

Blame me for the actions of (you assume not even knowing my race) my ancestors.  Logical indeed. 

[DoubleDown]

Earlier I posted how the illegal immigrant population is overwhelming my kids' public schools. Here's an article from the Washington Post that discusses the situation, and it ain't pretty

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/in-fairfax-county-kindergarten-classes-school-systems-future-comes-into-focus/2014/06/28/1ced10d2-f25e-11e3-914c-1fbd0614e2d4_story.html

More than one-third of the 13,424 kindergartners in the county this year qualified for free or reduced-price meals, a federal measure of poverty, and close to 40 percent of the Class of 2026 requires additional English instruction, among the most ever for a Fairfax kindergarten class.

The rising enrollment — the overall student body has surged by more than 22,000 since 2004 — is not sustainable at the current funding level, schools officials said

During the past five years, costs for English language instruction increased by more than $18 million, and elementary school teachers say they spend an increasing amount of their time on remedial education.

At Springfield’s Lynbrook Elementary, 502 out of the 637 students speak Spanish at home, school records show, and 89 percent of those Spanish-speaking children were born in the United States. Grace Choi, a kindergarten language teacher at London Towne, said children from poor families often arrive for the first day of school not knowing the alphabet, a standard lesson in preschool.

“We’re all ESOL teachers here,” said Principal Mary McNamee, noting that literacy has become central to the school’s curriculum. Meredith Hopkins, a third-year kindergarten teacher at Lynbrook, said she has never had a native English speaker in her classes.

Kevin Sneed, director of construction and planning for the school system, said the rise in enrollment in recent years has created capacity issues, leading the schools to use more than 990 trailers for extra classroom space. At many schools, supply closets have been transformed into miniature food banks for children who come to school hungry and return home at the end of the day to homes with bare cupboards.

Understanding what the children face at home, Mason Crest teachers do not require homework, Kerr said.
For some students, home is a trailer park. At Audubon Estates near Alexandria, the 700 trailers house more than 1,500 children, many of whom attend nearby Hybla Valley Elementary, one of the poorest schools in the county.

Now we may resume discussing how the people coming here illegally are of no impact, and are supporting themselves and their communities through their labor and all those taxes they're paying (despite having bare cupboards, getting free/reduced meals, eating from food pantries, and living in trailers).

[Sofa King]

As soon as they are picked up give the illegals a bottle of water and a bologna sandwich put them on a bus and send them rite back.  And to me that is being generous. 

[PeteD01]

Earlier I posted how the illegal immigrant population is overwhelming my kids' public schools. Here's an article from the Washington Post that discusses the situation, and it ain't pretty

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/in-fairfax-county-kindergarten-classes-school-systems-future-comes-into-focus/2014/06/28/1ced10d2-f25e-11e3-914c-1fbd0614e2d4_story.html

More than one-third of the 13,424 kindergartners in the county this year qualified for free or reduced-price meals, a federal measure of poverty, and close to 40 percent of the Class of 2026 requires additional English instruction, among the most ever for a Fairfax kindergarten class.

The rising enrollment — the overall student body has surged by more than 22,000 since 2004 — is not sustainable at the current funding level, schools officials said

During the past five years, costs for English language instruction increased by more than $18 million, and elementary school teachers say they spend an increasing amount of their time on remedial education.

At Springfield’s Lynbrook Elementary, 502 out of the 637 students speak Spanish at home, school records show, and 89 percent of those Spanish-speaking children were born in the United States. Grace Choi, a kindergarten language teacher at London Towne, said children from poor families often arrive for the first day of school not knowing the alphabet, a standard lesson in preschool.

“We’re all ESOL teachers here,” said Principal Mary McNamee, noting that literacy has become central to the school’s curriculum. Meredith Hopkins, a third-year kindergarten teacher at Lynbrook, said she has never had a native English speaker in her classes.

Kevin Sneed, director of construction and planning for the school system, said the rise in enrollment in recent years has created capacity issues, leading the schools to use more than 990 trailers for extra classroom space. At many schools, supply closets have been transformed into miniature food banks for children who come to school hungry and return home at the end of the day to homes with bare cupboards.

Understanding what the children face at home, Mason Crest teachers do not require homework, Kerr said.
For some students, home is a trailer park. At Audubon Estates near Alexandria, the 700 trailers house more than 1,500 children, many of whom attend nearby Hybla Valley Elementary, one of the poorest schools in the county.

Now we may resume discussing how the people coming here illegally are of no impact, and are supporting themselves and their communities through their labor and all those taxes they're paying (despite having bare cupboards, getting free/reduced meals, eating from food pantries, and living in trailers).

Best news regarding my SS I've heard in long time. Are you aware that the US is the only developed country that does not face a demographic crisis because of immigration? I am happy to hear that the reality on ground matches what I only have heard from some statisticians before.

[Simple Abundant Living]

As soon as they are picked up give the illegals a bottle of water and a bologna sandwich put them on a bus and send them rite back.  And to me that is being generous.

And what if it's a 9-yr-old child who has been robbed, beaten and raped in his country?  Returning would mean either joining the drug gangs or getting murdered- probably getting murdered either way.  What should we do there?

I'll repost this article for you.  People with set ideas of immigration are not aware of the current situation. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/13/opinion/sunday/a-refugee-crisis-not-an-immigration-crisis.html?_r=0

[thepokercab]

Now we may resume discussing how the people coming here illegally are of no impact,

Where was that said?

and are supporting themselves and their communities through their labor and all those taxes they're paying (despite having bare cupboards, getting free/reduced meals, eating from food pantries, and living in trailers).

That article definitely lays out the challenge.  I live in Arizona so I see it first hand myself.  However, they are two sides of the same coin.  Yes, classrooms are getting more crowded and services are strained, but immigrant labor is a huge driver of Virginia's economy (and Arizona). Other analysis shows that robust immigrant labor + all the money they spent in VA, was one of the reasons the Great Recession was relatively muted there.  You can't just ignore that with a hand wave and just focus on the bad.  We ultimately benefit from a growing population, and immigrant labor and consumers are a huge part of that.

One of the greatest, and least trumpeted, assets of the United States is its growing population. More people means a larger labor force, higher levels of production, more services, more creativity, more consumption and a larger tax revenue for governments. Of course a growing population presents challenges as well, such as stimulating enough demand in the labor market. This is, however, one of the nice problems to have as a government. For the EU the problem is exactly opposite.

With that said, maybe as a country we need to reflect on what our priorities need to be moving forward. We insist on continuing to spend gazillions of dollars on elderly services at the expense of just about everything else: 

Over the next 10 years, federal outlays on children will fall as a percentage of the budget (from 10 to 8 percent); federal spending is projected to increase by nearly $1 trillion, but children’s spending remains essentially unchanged in absolute dollars."

Looking solely at the federal budget, an elderly person receives close to seven federal dollars for every dollar received by a child]

Its not hard to see the paradox- on the one hand we benefit from a steadily growing population, but on the other hand federal spending priorities aren't pointed in that direction. If our federal spending priorities are old people and guns then yes, there's not much left over to build more schools.  That's not a ding on the elderly, but just a fact that if most of the federal government's money is going towards elderly services there isn't much more to do anything else. 

[davisgang90]

Those darn elderly using all those services they never paid for!!!  Oh wait....

[giggles]

I work in this field.  SSA does not have a public publication on this topic, but this article sums it up:

http://seniorsleague.org/2013/illegal-work-under-fake-social-security-number-government-still-pays-benefits/

Even if the person uses someone else's valid snn, the vast majority of the time the IRS catches it and the earnings go in our suspense file, to be claimed by the once-illegal-now-legal worker in the future.  In my experience it is extremely rare for the earnings to end up under the snn of the person whose ssn was stolen, but even in that case the earnings canbe removed and added to to once-illegal-now-legal worker record if the correct proof is provided


And on the topic, I am impacted directly very little in my personal life and tax-wise.  I wish we could craft true immigration reform to prevent this from happening again in 30 years, but know we will get a watered down mess instead and be going through this all again every quarter century or so.

[allergic2average]

Put politics aside. Put compassion aside. What are your financial thoughts on it and how it may impact you and your family?

Is it no big deal?  How much would be too much?  Do we need more of it?

I'd like to hear the opinions of this community that obviously spends a fair amount of time thinking about profits and losses an log term investments and the impact of costs and inflation.

Seeing as how my parents came here illegally and I have double nationality, we need more of it so my other family members can come here as well and enjoy the opportunities given to lazy Americans :) Hispanics are the largest minority in the US so eventually todos vamos a hablar Español. Plus it would mean no longer having to use Western Union every month.

I speak Català so I should start brushing up on my Castellano. La Reconquista is coming. Slowly but surely :D

Lol true indeed sir. If anything this will improve the intelligence level of Americans since speaking more than one language develops the brain to a higher degree. I never understand why people bring up illegal immigration, nothing will ever stop it. We'll keep coming over as long as there is good money to be made. We don't care about borders or laws :)

Give me your address and I'll come by and help myself to your stuff since you don't care about laws.

Actually PM your address and I'll happily send you my stuff since you need it more than I do :-)

[davisgang90]

Put politics aside. Put compassion aside. What are your financial thoughts on it and how it may impact you and your family?

Is it no big deal?  How much would be too much?  Do we need more of it?

I'd like to hear the opinions of this community that obviously spends a fair amount of time thinking about profits and losses an log term investments and the impact of costs and inflation.

Seeing as how my parents came here illegally and I have double nationality, we need more of it so my other family members can come here as well and enjoy the opportunities given to lazy Americans :) Hispanics are the largest minority in the US so eventually todos vamos a hablar Español. Plus it would mean no longer having to use Western Union every month.

I speak Català so I should start brushing up on my Castellano. La Reconquista is coming. Slowly but surely :D

Lol true indeed sir. If anything this will improve the intelligence level of Americans since speaking more than one language develops the brain to a higher degree. I never understand why people bring up illegal immigration, nothing will ever stop it. We'll keep coming over as long as there is good money to be made. We don't care about borders or laws :)

Give me your address and I'll come by and help myself to your stuff since you don't care about laws.

Actually PM your address and I'll happily send you my stuff since you need it more than I do :-)

1600 Pennsylvania Ave.  Washington DC.  Please send it soon, I really need it.

[lisahi]

Here's an article that illustrates the current issue of refugee children.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/13/opinion/sunday/a-refugee-crisis-not-an-immigration-crisis.html?_r=0&referrer=

If you were in a burning building, you'd jump too.

These kids and families could choose other, more stable countries in South America to flee to. They choose the United States for one reason--that's where the smugglers are encouraging them to go. Smugglers tell them lies about American immigration law--saying that if they come to the U.S. they won't be sent back and that they'll qualify for "Dream Act"-type laws (they won't). These smugglers charge them every penny these people have, and then transport them in horrendous conditions through desert and rivers into the U.S. The smugglers then abandon them in ranch land and they are picked up by Border Patrol. Meanwhile, these smugglers are not only getting rich, but are distracting Border Patrol so they can smuggle in other, more nefarious things into the U.S. (think drugs, weapons, etc.). Very well planned.

These kids are pawns. Their families are pawns. Well, some of them. Some of the parents are already here in the U.S. illegally and have paid smugglers to bring their children to meet them. The parents don't dare risk going back to their country to get their children--which seems a tad selfish, really, considering that they're putting their children through life-threatening situations so they don't risk getting caught by Border Patrol.

[Daisy]

How about a positive story on immigration and the economy?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/us/20miami.html

EDIT: I am guessing most of these immigrants are legal. But anyway, an argument to open up immigration more so less people fall in the "illegal" category.

[Daisy]

These kids and families could choose other, more stable countries in South America to flee to. They choose the United States for one reason--that's where the smugglers are encouraging them to go.

That's one issue. It's entirely possible that they view the US as the land of opportunity and freedom. Something which US born people tend to take for granted.

[firelight]

Interesting thread! Illegal immigration is very complicated... They should start with making legal immigration faster. There are people from India and China that wait more than ten years to be approved for legal immigration. And ten years is a looooonnnngggg time.

[firelight]

I'm not saying they should accept every person in the queue but atleast say if he or she is accepted or not in a few months time or a year's time, not after ten or twenty years of waiting

[MrFancypants]

In keeping with the spirit of the original post, removing politics and compassion....

It doesn't impact me one bit, and I'm two hours from the US/Mexican border.

[MrFancypants]

Not in keeping with the original intent of the thread, I suggest all those who have an opinion on the subject read this and bounce that off your current position on the subject...

http://www.cracked.com/article_18552_so-you-want-to-be-american-5-circles-immigration-hell.html

This article was written about a guy trying to move to the US from one our closest allies so he could be with his wife, and the legal process was still maddeningly difficult.

Now try to apply that process to someone who doesn't have the thousands of dollars that he spent to get through the process nor the language skills necessary to navigate this mess in the most efficient way possible.

The process is so broken and full of inefficiencies that I've stopped being upset about people not going through the legal process.  But that's just me.

[prof61820]

You can also buy a Visa: http://fortune.com/2014/07/24/immigration-eb-5-visa-for-sale/

[resy]

Most of the hispanics I know who are legal in this country are against illegal immigrants.  I interact with a lot of hispanics.

I notice this a lot too. Being hispanic myself, it saddens me.

[libertarian4321]

Our immigration system is COMPLETELY BROKEN.

Even for wealthy, well educated immigrants with family members in the USA, it can be a Hell of a goat screw to get access to the USA legally.

For poor laborers, the chance of entering the USA to work legally is essentially nil.  If you have workers looking for a job, and US companies willing to hire them, but the US immigration system is so completely F-cked up neither the employer nor the potential employee has any chance to work legally, within the system, then it doesn't take a genius to realize that they will IGNORE THE SYSTEM and enter illegally.

My wife is a LEGAL immigrant.  Even with money, education, family in the USA, and an in demand job skill (scientist with a graduate degree), she had to jump through ridiculous hoops to become an American citizen.

If you make working within the system legally nearly impossible, don't be surprised if people IGNORE THE LAW.

First step should not be putting machine guns/troops on the border, it should be FIXING OUR BROKEN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM. 

I'm no fan of George W. Bush, but one of the few bright ideas he had was setting up a system of work permits for foreigners.  That would have been a great first step.  Of course, that idea went nowhere, whereas stupid ideas like the Iraq War were endorsed by BOTH major parties.  Utterly pathetic.

[resy]

Put politics aside. Put compassion aside. What are your financial thoughts on it and how it may impact you and your family?

Is it no big deal?  How much would be too much?  Do we need more of it?

I'd like to hear the opinions of this community that obviously spends a fair amount of time thinking about profits and losses an log term investments and the impact of costs and inflation.

Seeing as how my parents came here illegally and I have double nationality, we need more of it so my other family members can come here as well and enjoy the opportunities given to lazy Americans :) Hispanics are the largest minority in the US so eventually todos vamos a hablar Español. Plus it would mean no longer having to use Western Union every month.

I speak Català so I should start brushing up on my Castellano. La Reconquista is coming. Slowly but surely :D

Lol true indeed sir. If anything this will improve the intelligence level of Americans since speaking more than one language develops the brain to a higher degree. I never understand why people bring up illegal immigration, nothing will ever stop it. We'll keep coming over as long as there is good money to be made. We don't care about borders or laws :)

Give me your address and I'll come by and help myself to your stuff since you don't care about laws.

Gawd what terrible misrepresentation! As a hispanic I am horrified by the above statements. Part of me thinks it was written either a)in sarcasm or b) a racist redneck person wrote it to get a bad reaction. If not, i am deeply ashamed of you guys wth

[MrFancypants]

Lol true indeed sir. If anything this will improve the intelligence level of Americans since speaking more than one language develops the brain to a higher degree. I never understand why people bring up illegal immigration, nothing will ever stop it. We'll keep coming over as long as there is good money to be made. We don't care about borders or laws :)

Give me your address and I'll come by and help myself to your stuff since you don't care about laws.

Gawd what terrible misrepresentation! As a hispanic I am horrified by the above statements. Part of me thinks it was written either a)in sarcasm or b) a racist redneck person wrote it to get a bad reaction. If not, i am deeply ashamed of you guys wth

Typically I would side with you on this one given that most anti-immigration arguments seem to come from a place of racism.

But in this specific case, the response was appropriate to the statement being made.

I get that the laws are broken, and if you read my previous statements I feel that I have shown that I understand this.  I feel a lot of sympathy for people in this situation, but anyone who says "we don't care about borders or laws" is not worthy of sympathy or forgiveness.  I wouldn't go all eye for an eye on them, but that type of person does not belong in this country.

It's good for allergic2average that I don't have access to his IP address.

[going2ER]

89 percent of those Spanish-speaking children were born in the United States.

So if they are born in the US, my understanding is that they are American. Yes, their parents may be there illegally, but they are your fellow American, like it or not.

My SIL is in the US illegally, from Canada, she tried for 10 years to obtain citizenship and just gave up. Her husband is American and because her son was born there, he is also American. Just like the kids from Mexico and Central America.

I personally think of it as a refugee problem and as such should be dealt with like any other refugee crisis. Other countries should be willing to assist these children and families if they are legitamate refugees.

[DoubleDown]

Yup, our immigration system (if we can even call it that) is broken and ridiculous. That quote above was from a Washington Post article on the subject. The relevance (to the thread and the immigration problem) of the quoted statistic is in the related costs. My county is spending an additional $18 million in ESL for these students in the last 5 years. That's not $18 million total, that's an extra $18 million on top of the base budget from previous years.

There's really no magic in 22,000 extra students being dumped into a school system. At some point, don't you just say "No more"?? That costs a tremendous fucking amount of money, particularly when the students in question are hungry and don't speak English. It affects the other students in the classroom, the teachers, and it certainly affects my taxes and other services from the county which have to be sacrificed in order to absorb the added strain. I've lived (and paid a huge amount of money in property taxes) in this county for 18 years, and my youngest daughter just spent her last year of elementary school in a trailer because there's no room for all these "recent arrivals".

Yes, we live in about the most expensive county in the nation (Fairfax), with the highest incomes and (taxes) in the nation, and she went to school every day in a fucking trailer. In her class of 22 students, 6 spoke no English. I don't know how much her education suffered because so much of the class couldn't even understand what the teacher was saying. My daughter said one poor kid who was bilingual was relegated to pretty much being the translator all day for the others.

[Emilyngh]

I've lived (and paid a huge amount of money in property taxes) in this county for 18 years, and my youngest daughter just spent her last year of elementary school in a trailer because there's no room for all these "recent arrivals".

Waaah.   I went to HS in Fairfax County and am pretty sure your DD still has access to a great education and will wind up doing just fine regardless of being relegated to a trailer in elementary school to make room for the non-white students.   God forbid some white children living in one of the richest places in the US have to spend time in a trailer *gasp* over to make room for the poor children of the world.

[DoubleDown]

I've lived (and paid a huge amount of money in property taxes) in this county for 18 years, and my youngest daughter just spent her last year of elementary school in a trailer because there's no room for all these "recent arrivals".

Waaah.   I went to HS in Fairfax County and am pretty sure your DD still has access to a great education and will wind up doing just fine regardless of being relegated to a trailer in elementary school to make room for the non-white students.   God forbid some white children living in one of the richest places in the US have to spend time in a trailer *gasp* over to make room for the poor children of the world.

Ha, nice race baiting with the "white children making room for non-whites"! I guess no one should mind having their County accept 22,000 additional students and pay $100 million for it. And, if they do mind, they must be racists.

[Emilyngh]

I've lived (and paid a huge amount of money in property taxes) in this county for 18 years, and my youngest daughter just spent her last year of elementary school in a trailer because there's no room for all these "recent arrivals".

Waaah.   I went to HS in Fairfax County and am pretty sure your DD still has access to a great education and will wind up doing just fine regardless of being relegated to a trailer in elementary school to make room for the non-white students.   God forbid some white children living in one of the richest places in the US have to spend time in a trailer *gasp* over to make room for the poor children of the world.

Ha, nice race baiting with the "white children making room for non-whites"! I guess no one should mind having their County accept 22,000 additional students and pay $100 million for it. And, if they do mind, they must be racists.

The fact is that we are talking about mostly white students (is your daughter not white?) making room for non-white students.   Stating this fact is not race-baiting, but reality.   Oh and please copy and paste anything I said calling you a racist.

[Runge]

I've lived (and paid a huge amount of money in property taxes) in this county for 18 years, and my youngest daughter just spent her last year of elementary school in a trailer because there's no room for all these "recent arrivals".

Waaah.   I went to HS in Fairfax County and am pretty sure your DD still has access to a great education and will wind up doing just fine regardless of being relegated to a trailer in elementary school to make room for the non-white students.   God forbid some white children living in one of the richest places in the US have to spend time in a trailer *gasp* over to make room for the poor children of the world.

Ha, nice race baiting with the "white children making room for non-whites"! I guess no one should mind having their County accept 22,000 additional students and pay $100 million for it. And, if they do mind, they must be racists.

The fact is that we are talking about mostly white students (is your daughter not white?) making room for non-white students.   Stating this fact is not race-baiting, but reality.   Oh and please copy and paste anything I said calling you a racist.

Why did you even feel the need to bring race into it? He (she?) said absolutely nothing regarding race, nor really implying it. Why does it even have to matter what color the daughter is? Fact is that he's paid plenty of taxes for the past two decades and as a result of poor planning by or too many restrictions imposed on the school district, his child is getting less of an education than she could have. It has absolutely nothing to do with race.

[Sylly]

Ha, nice race baiting with the "white children making room for non-whites"! I guess no one should mind having their County accept 22,000 additional students and pay $100 million for it. And, if they do mind, they must be racists.

The fact is that we are talking about mostly white students (is your daughter not white?) making room for non-white students.   Stating this fact is not race-baiting, but reality.   Oh and please copy and paste anything I said calling you a racist.

It may be reality, but it's not relevant to the issue DD brought up. So I'd agree with him that it's race-baiting. What other purpose did you have, other than to inject race into the issue, to insert that 'non-white' adjective in there?

[Emilyngh]

Why did you even feel the need to bring race into it? He (she?) said absolutely nothing regarding race, nor really implying it. Why does it even have to matter what color the daughter is? Fact is that he's paid plenty of taxes for the past two decades and as a result of poor planning by or too many restrictions imposed on the school district, his child is getting less of an education than she could have. It has absolutely nothing to do with race.

B/c the race is a reality.   The fact that he ignores it does not mean that it's not a fact that the students he's complaining about losing privileges are mostly white students, so that non-whites can gain access.   I'm not turning a blind eye to reality b/c it makes others feel better.   

And his daughter is still getting a great, privileged education, so my sympathy for his crying about her having to sit in a *gasp* trailer so that other children can have access to education is very limited.   The fact that he's paid taxes does no change this.   We have a public system for the good of the public; if he wanted a "pay-for-play" system he should have sent his kid to private school.

[Emilyngh]

It may be reality, but it's not relevant to the issue DD brought up. So I'd agree with him that it's race-baiting. What other purpose did you have, other than to inject race into the issue, to insert that 'non-white' adjective in there?

DD was bitching about his daughter attending school in one of the richest areas in the US and having to sit in a trailer *gasp.*   One cannot make such a statement without inviting discussions of privilege, and when that privilege is so clearly divided along racial lines, it's relevant, whether people would prefer to ignore it or not.   I did not "inject" race into the issue.   It is already so deeply embedded that ignoring it is not considering the issue as a whole, so let's not all attempt to pretend otherwise.

And before continuing leveraging accusations of "race-baiting" we might want to look up that term: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race-baiting.   Key to the definition are "unfair use of statements about race" and "verbal attacks."   Stating that race exists and that this privilege is divided along racial lines is not an unfair statement about race nor a verbal attack.

[Sylly]

And before continuing leveraging accusations of "race-baiting" we might want to look up that term: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race-baiting.   Key to the definition are "unfair use of statements about race" and "verbal attacks."   Stating that race exists and that this privilege is divided along racial lines is not an unfair statement about race nor a verbal attack.

By the very definition you're linking,

the unfair use of statements about race to try to influence the actions or attitudes of a particular group of people

it doesn't have to be a verbal attack. Your use was arguably to influence the attitudes and possibly actions of the readers. So If not to do so, I ask again, for what purpose is that 'non-white' adjective there?

The conversation is valid with or without racial descriptions. DD's issue (of a school negatively impacted by a large influx of new students) is valid regardless of the race of the newcomers. Whether or not race is present or not in the issue, I would still argue that is is not relevant to the specific issue that DD encounters.

DD was bitching about his daughter attending school in one of the richest areas in the US and having to sit in a trailer *gasp.*   One cannot make such a statement without inviting discussions of privilege, and when that privilege is so clearly divided along racial lines, it's relevant, whether people would prefer to ignore it or not.   I did not "inject" race into the issue.   It is already so deeply embedded that ignoring it is not considering the issue as a whole, so let's not all attempt to pretend otherwise.

You seem to take intense offense that DD bemoans the negative impact he's seeing at his daughter's school. So what if his daughter is still receiving great education? That's not the point. The point is that the quality of education is seemingly diminished, no matter how slightly.

If a well-off neighbor was burglarized, but fortunately does not experience a significant setback to his net worth, do you think he doesn't have a right to be upset about it because 'Oh, he's privileged anyway and still has a lot of money?'

Not everything has to be about privilege or race issues. 

[Emilyngh]

By the very definition you're linking,

the unfair use of statements about race to try to influence the actions or attitudes of a particular group of people

it doesn't have to be a verbal attack. Your use was arguably to influence the attitudes and possibly actions of the readers. So If not to do so, I ask again, for what purpose is that 'non-white' adjective there?

DD was bitching about his daughter attending school in one of the richest areas in the US and having to sit in a trailer *gasp.*   One cannot make such a statement without inviting discussions of privilege, and when that privilege is so clearly divided along racial lines, it's relevant, whether people would prefer to ignore it or not.   I did not "inject" race into the issue.   It is already so deeply embedded that ignoring it is not considering the issue as a whole, so let's not all attempt to pretend otherwise.

You seem to take intense offense that DD bemoans the negative impact he's seeing at his daughter's school. So what if his daughter is still receiving great education? That's not the point. The point is that the quality of education is seemingly diminished, no matter how slightly.

If a well-off neighbor was burglarized, but fortunately does not experience a significant setback to his net worth, do you think he doesn't have a right to be upset about it because 'Oh, he's privileged anyway and still has a lot of money?'

Not everything has to be about privilege or race issues.

The definition requires "unfair use of statements about race."   Stating that the privilege is divided along racial lines is not an unfair statement to incite.   It is a fact.   As far as why this is brought up at all, see my very quote you posted above regarding the discussion of privilege that exists along racial lines without mentioning race.

And in this case no one is stealing from DD, simply sharing shared resources with other children who are extremely disadvantaged, while his child is still able to get a super top-notch education.  Yes, that gets a "boo-hoo, tough shit from me."   

[legacyoneup]

Is this really a crisis? It's not like a flood of people moving into refugee camps in the US for whom the government needs to handout food and other amenities.

What skills do they have? What jobs do they do? Harvesting crops/construction/labor intensive jobs in manufacturing... ?

I recently came across a documentary showing their living conditions:
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/vice-news/permanently-temporary-the-truth-about-temp-labor-part-1

Frankly, I'd rather go back to Goa than live like that. Would Americans genuinely want to do that kind of work?

My company very likely does employ such temp workers but many of those jobs have been eliminated via plant / distribution center consolidation and automation over the last few years. Interest in automating such jobs is growing across companies. Hell, Amazon want to deliver items via drones.

As the nature of work changes, illegal immigration will slowly taper. Instead of spending large amounts on sealing the border, maybe we could give a little more aid to these countries to invest in education. An educated populace should be able to generate opportunity and growth within the country, removing the reasons to cross the border.

[frugalnacho]

The definition requires "unfair use of statements about race."   Stating that the privilege is divided along racial lines is not an unfair statement to incite.  It is a fact.   As far as why this is brought up at all, see my very quote you posted above regarding the discussion of privilege that exists along racial lines without mentioning race.

And in this case no one is stealing from DD, simply sharing shared resources with other children who are extremely disadvantaged, while his child is still able to get a super top-notch education.  Yes, that gets a "boo-hoo, tough shit from me."

The fact is irrelevant though.   

And how is illegally taking something (that costs real money) from someone else not stealing?  If I can't afford a bike so I steal one of your extra bikes, is that not stealing? Or is that just you simply sharing your bike resources with someone who is less advantaged than you?

[DoubleDown]

I don't think it matters (hence my questioning bringing race into the equation), but: Yes, I would feel the exact same way if all 22,000 children were lily-white Swedes. The issue to me is not their race, it's the massive financial impact to the county, neighborhoods, taxpayers, increasing crime, and the suffering quality of my own kids' education.

But yeah, I can see how it seems like whining coming from a privileged area, and my kids have it good overall where we live. Like I said before, though -- where does it end? When another 100,000 students enter our schools, when the fire marshal has to close the school because of overcrowding and the County charges me and every other homeowner an extra $15,000/year to build 25 more schools to house them all? Does anyone want crime, poverty, and overcrowding brought into their neighborhood?

[MrFancypants]

I don't think it matters (hence my questioning bringing race into the equation), but: Yes, I would feel the exact same way if all 22,000 children were lily-white Swedes. The issue to me is not their race, it's the massive financial impact to the county, neighborhoods, taxpayers, increasing crime, and the suffering quality of my own kids' education.

But yeah, I can see how it seems like whining coming from a privileged area, and my kids have it good overall where we live. Like I said before, though -- where does it end? When another 100,000 students enter our schools, when the fire marshal has to close the school because of overcrowding and the County charges me and every other homeowner an extra $15,000/year to build 25 more schools to house them all? Does anyone want crime, poverty, and overcrowding brought into their neighborhood?

I'm confused....  the people who come here outside of normal immigration channels have to live somewhere too, right?  It's not like they're all camping out on the back forty or something.  If they're paying rent, some of that money is going to property taxes, if they're buying anything from any store, some of that money is going to sales taxes.  Perhaps my impression is wrong, but I thought that these two areas of taxation were where most local education funding is sourced.

Being here illegally doesn't grant you some anti-tax invisibility cloak that automatically deducts the price of every product or service you purchase to prevent tax revenue from being collected.

*edit* -> typo correction

[frugalnacho]

I don't think it matters (hence my questioning bringing race into the equation), but: Yes, I would feel the exact same way if all 22,000 children were lily-white Swedes. The issue to me is not their race, it's the massive financial impact to the county, neighborhoods, taxpayers, increasing crime, and the suffering quality of my own kids' education.

But yeah, I can see how it seems like whining coming from a privileged area, and my kids have it good overall where we live. Like I said before, though -- where does it end? When another 100,000 students enter our schools, when the fire marshal has to close the school because of overcrowding and the County charges me and every other homeowner an extra $15,000/year to build 25 more schools to house them all? Does anyone want crime, poverty, and overcrowding brought into their neighborhood?

I'm confused.... the people who come here outside of normal immigration channels have to live somewhere too, right?  It's not like they're all camping out on the back forty or something.  If they're paying rent, some of that money is going to property taxes, if they're buying anything from any store, some of that money is going to sales taxes.  Perhaps my impression is wrong, but I thought that these two areas of taxation were where most local education funding is sourced.

Being here illegally doesn't grant you some anti-tax invisibility cloak that automatically deducts the price of every product or service you purchase to prevent tax revenue from being collected.

*edit* -> typo correction

Reminds of this scene from family guy about the mexican superfriends:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na1OaXfbEjw

[libertarian4321]

I don't think it matters (hence my questioning bringing race into the equation), but: Yes, I would feel the exact same way if all 22,000 children were lily-white Swedes. The issue to me is not their race, it's the massive financial impact to the county, neighborhoods, taxpayers, increasing crime, and the suffering quality of my own kids' education.

But yeah, I can see how it seems like whining coming from a privileged area, and my kids have it good overall where we live. Like I said before, though -- where does it end? When another 100,000 students enter our schools, when the fire marshal has to close the school because of overcrowding and the County charges me and every other homeowner an extra $15,000/year to build 25 more schools to house them all? Does anyone want crime, poverty, and overcrowding brought into their neighborhood?

I'm confused....  the people who come here outside of normal immigration channels have to live somewhere too, right?  It's not like they're all camping out on the back forty or something.  If they're paying rent, some of that money is going to property taxes, if they're buying anything from any store, some of that money is going to sales taxes.  Perhaps my impression is wrong, but I thought that these two areas of taxation were where most local education funding is sourced.

Being here illegally doesn't grant you some anti-tax invisibility cloak that automatically deducts the price of every product or service you purchase to prevent tax revenue from being collected.

*edit* -> typo correction

Also, many of them pay taxes into our social security system, with no chance of ever collecting.  Those "illegals" are helping to float our Social Security Ponzi scheme.

[fixer-upper]

Also, many of them pay taxes into our social security system, with no chance of ever collecting.  Those "illegals" are helping to float our Social Security Ponzi scheme.

they're also helping to float the housing market.  Can you imagine how far rents and purchase prices would drop if we deported 10M+ illegal aliens?

[DoubleDown]

Also, many of them pay taxes into our social security system, with no chance of ever collecting.  Those "illegals" are helping to float our Social Security Ponzi scheme.

they're also helping to float the housing market.  Can you imagine how far rents and purchase prices would drop if we deported 10M+ illegal aliens?

The problem to me though, with these kinds of arguments (paying taxes to Social Security, 10 million renters) is that those factors are heavily diluted by the local impact. So, let's say some percentage of the illegal population pays some Social Security taxes on any above-board labor they perform. As I stated above, my County alone is absorbing hundreds of millions of dollars in additional costs supporting the huge influx of immigrant children in the schools alone (let alone providing affordable housing, food, and so on). I'd expect that if you totaled up all the Social Security taxes paid by the illegals in my County, it would be a tiny fraction of the taxes being used to support the population.

And so I go back to my statement from before -- I feel bad for these people in how they have it in their countries, but don't we owe it to our own citizens and migrating residents that went through all the pain-staking effort to come and stay here legally, to support them first? Why should tax money be spent building more schools and affordable housing to absorb the influx of people violating our laws to get here, when it could be used to feed hungry children that are already here (legally), or other causes? I am resentful that my substantial property tax dollars are being eaten up building new schools and hiring ESL teachers.