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General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: YoungGranny on June 12, 2017, 06:28:58 AM

Title: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 12, 2017, 06:28:58 AM
I recently started a podcast and had an episode where I was talking about savings but didn't get into too much detail about savings rate which I definitely want to cover soon. Then I started realized I might be a little skewed since I've always had a high savings rate but I've always made fairly high income. I started after college right around $60k and have gone up since. My savings rate just out of college was probably around 40% and has steadily climbed since when I get raises I just keep saving.

Anyways, I was curious to take a poll to see what different ranges of income have for a savings rate. Figured the mustachian crowd is more inclined to have the "goal" savings rates so I could try and give ranges for a target savings rate based on income. If anyone with an income bracket of $40k to $60k with a high savings rate would be interested in sharing their annual expenses & savings with me via a PM I'd love to chat more about it. I know quite a few people who ended up in this range after college and "can't possibly saving any money". I'd love a real life example to chat about on my podcast - of course you'd remain anonymous since between this forum and then my podcast you'd have 2 layers of protection.


Thanks for all of your help in advance!
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 12, 2017, 06:34:14 AM
*
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Feivel2000 on June 12, 2017, 06:42:11 AM
Are we talking before or after tax income?
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 12, 2017, 06:48:16 AM
I usually calculate my savings rate based on take home pay and I'm looking for gross income.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: BTDretire on June 12, 2017, 06:54:46 AM
 I put $75-$100k - 20%-50%, but that is only true for the last 10 years or so.
Going back to when we married 36 years ago, we have varied from $18k to $100k.
Over those 36 years the average was about $47k, using my SS records to calculate.
The SS records don't tell the whole story, because we had a few houses and some capital gains that don't require SS payments. But it is fairly close.
  The only years I'm sure about savings numbers, is our first year of marriage when we earned $18k and saved $6k and sometime in the 80s, (86?) when I had a very good earning year and
earned $60k and saved $25k.
  2011 thru 2016 were very good years for us in savings and stock market growth. However we are probably done saving, as we now have two kids in college with one going to dental school at a cost of over $200k that we expect to pay for, hopefully with work income and dividends
that we receive. I hope we don't need to touch principal. Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 12, 2017, 06:59:39 AM
not surprised at where this is filling up at the top.  most around here are high income high savings.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Fire2025 on June 12, 2017, 07:41:31 AM
I make $60,000 and save about 50%.  I live in Los Angeles area, so it can be done, even in a HCOL area.  congrats on the new Podcast, I'll check it out.  I need podcasts for my bike to work, one of the ways to live on less, thanks MMM!!!!!!
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: inline five on June 12, 2017, 07:52:29 AM
I actually don't know what our savings rate is, nor does it really matter, what matters is savings dollars and investment growth rates. You can save $0 but grow your nest egg 200% in a year and you're far ahead of where someone who stuffs money away in a conservative bond fund would be, or save 25% but put more into investments than someone saving 60% of their income if they earn less.

Personally I don't want to live my life for the next 30-40 years like I'm living now, I want to improve my standard of living as time goes on.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: APowers on June 12, 2017, 08:07:10 AM
Our income has averaged around $25k/yr over the last 7 years, with a savings rate of around 50%.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 12, 2017, 08:46:26 AM
Our income has averaged around $25k/yr over the last 7 years, with a savings rate of around 50%.

this is insanely impressive
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 12, 2017, 09:13:03 AM
BTDretire - seems like you had a decent savings rate no matter what! Good luck getting those kids through college and figuring out how to map out your savings as you move to a new chapter :)

boarder42 - yea i assumed mostly higher incomes which is why i tried to break it up a bit - helpful to see people at all tiers. Definitely easier to increase the % when you earn more but also not impossible if you earn less as evident by some BA people on this site!

Fire2025 - that is incredible! Have you ever shared your budget on the forums? I love seeing success stories like this and love to see how people do it when so many people deem it impossible!

inline five - i think most people on this site invest in pretty well performing mutual funds so increasing your savings rate has a direct correlation with FIRE date. I agree with having a nice standard of living but I don't always think the way to improve that is to spend more money :-)

APowers - that is absolutely incredible! Have you shared your expenses on the forums before? I'd love to look it over and see how you do that! Does that include living expenses or are you mortgage free?

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on June 12, 2017, 09:24:08 AM
My income is about $48/k and our family has been spending about $1300/mo (though my newest rent is higher, so will have to see how things play out), two people (one adult, one teen).

I do most of the normal frugal things (don't really buy clothes, don't eat out unless it's cheaper than eating at home, etc). But I also have a car, etc, and a pretty luxurious life overall.

My biggest hack is housing costs. I haven't paid normal housing costs in a looooooong time, and will take pretty strong measures to avoid them. That one piece would make or break things for me.

My whole schtick is laid out in detail in my book, link in my sig :)
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: pachnik on June 12, 2017, 09:27:55 AM
I make about $55,000 per year gross and save about 1/3 of my net income.   I also do the usual frugal stuff - buying as much secondhand as I can, eating out once a week, inexpensive hobbies like yoga and gardening.  But I do own a car and drive to work since my workplace location isn't transit friendly. 
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Fire2025 on June 12, 2017, 10:12:15 AM
Fire2025 - that is incredible! Have you ever shared your budget on the forums? I love seeing success stories like this and love to see how people do it when so many people deem it impossible!

I have a journal.  Let the Games Begin.  But I don't update often.  Most of my spending is really automated and I don't do anything that others don't do.  Same stuff, different town.  I was a poor/broke artist most of my life, when I finally got a grown-up job at 42, I luckily found MMM, and became frugal.  No real changes from the days when I was broke, but now I feel free of everything I don't have, instead of feeling deprived.  Funny how one word - Frugal - can change your whole brain.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: APowers on June 12, 2017, 12:37:04 PM
APowers - that is absolutely incredible! Have you shared your expenses on the forums before? I'd love to look it over and see how you do that! Does that include living expenses or are you mortgage free?

I did a whole thread about it here (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/more-extreme-than-ere/msg809974/#msg809974).

It includes all living expenses, and while we're not mortgage free, our mortgage was ~$300/mo until we got it finally paid off. We now have bought another house and are renting the first one out, plus my job situation is different so I'm earning more now than I've ever before. Once our financial situation calms down to a more normal routine, I'm planning on figuring out how to best optimize it again. I expect we'll end up with about a 50% savings rate again.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: FIRE Artist on June 12, 2017, 01:36:03 PM
I'm no longer saving aggressively for retirement so my numbers are significantly different than they were 5 years ago.  My net worth is >$1MM (about $1.4MM CND) and I have downshifted to working in the public sector.   I have mandatory pension contributions which account for the lion's share of my current savings.  Building equity in the house I live in would be the second.  I am now just happily working at a low stress job and building equity in my house while watching my stash appreciate in value until it can replace my current post tax and pension contribution salary.  This should happen organically in about 5 years from now.  Then I will call it quits.  If I need to retire before then for some life altering reason, I will sell my house and move someplace lower cost. 

They weren't kidding when they said invest early and reap the benefits of compounding interest. 
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: dropspindl on June 12, 2017, 03:07:12 PM
I'm a nanny in NYC. My take home pay is about $40k and I save over half of it.

How:
-Lots of roomies (but my own room)
-nyc subways mean I don't need a car
-My hobby is a medieval group that is run on volunteers, so costs are really low
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: HPstache on June 12, 2017, 03:17:54 PM
Using the formulas contained in this MMM blog post:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/26/calculating-net-worth/

I am saving 37% of my ~$70K income
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: VolcanicArts on June 12, 2017, 09:27:23 PM
Right now my income is really good and has been that way for seven years. Unfortunately I had to spend a few years paying down student loans, but I am debt free noe and have a decent nest egg around 200k. I'm also in the process of starting a small side business which I will be putting 100% of profits into investments. Wish me luck. Kudos to the poster who makes 25k and saves 50% that is way more impressive than most.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: monstermonster on June 12, 2017, 09:38:43 PM
Highest I've made was $39,000 and I was consistently at 50% savings rate (some months as high at 65%). I quit my job last fall and am working part time while I start a business. Part time job has me making about ˜$23,000/year gross and saving 14-25% in an average month.

With the cost of self-employed health insurance my savings rate has plummeted on my sub-$25K income (but I'm still happy I can get it at all, I wouldn't be starting a business if it weren't for ACA insurance!)

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 13, 2017, 06:05:28 AM
Constantly impressed by all the B.A. people on this site. Kudos to all of you with a high savings rate - it's amazing when you talk to people with a high savings rate they almost never feel deprived yet once you inflate your lifestyle it can feel so much harder to cut back.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 13, 2017, 08:37:07 AM
the most baffling thing to me is the number of people pulling over 100k who arent saving 50% or more of their income. I'd expect that to be a much lower number there.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: wenchsenior on June 13, 2017, 08:47:43 AM
the most baffling thing to me is the number of people pulling over 100k who arent saving 50% or more of their income. I'd expect that to be a much lower number there.

I had that reaction also, but then I thought very probably those people are latecomers to MMM who are paying down debt.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: rockstache on June 13, 2017, 08:59:40 AM
the most baffling thing to me is the number of people pulling over 100k who arent saving 50% or more of their income. I'd expect that to be a much lower number there.

I had that reaction also, but then I thought very probably those people are latecomers to MMM who are paying down debt.

Also the poll doesn't really account for how many people are being taken care of on that income. One parent working, one staying at home with 6 kids? 50% might be tough.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on June 13, 2017, 09:02:38 AM
^ Yes. I went back and bolded that mine was for two people.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: NESailor on June 13, 2017, 10:37:26 AM
the most baffling thing to me is the number of people pulling over 100k who arent saving 50% or more of their income. I'd expect that to be a much lower number there.

I had that reaction also, but then I thought very probably those people are latecomers to MMM who are paying down debt.

I'm in there at the moment.  But honestly, it's entirely possible I'll save more than 50% this year but I didn't want to mis-represent our situation.  Last year we made about 115K as a family.  To allow for 2 jobs this required 2 kids in paid daycare, 2 cars, etc.   With a lot of effort we probably could have done better but it would have cost us happiness, which we would not want to sacrifice.  Anyway, we probably saved about 50K-ish.  The rest was living expenses and taxes.

Going into this year we increased our pay quite significantly (about 40K+ gross) and one of our kids is aging into UPK (publicly funded pre-school...with RE taxes we pay anyway).  Depending on how much of this raise will be eaten up by taxes, we will probably get over the 50% threshold since we don't plan to inflate our lifestyle.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: dropspindl on June 13, 2017, 10:46:41 AM
Here's a breakdown of my spending for the past 30 days:

Details: Living in NYC, have 3-4 apartment mates

Rent:         
  $740

Food (which includes a snack box subscription that I signed up for introductory box and then forgot to cancel, and a delivery order on Seamless):
 $197

Subway Pass:
 $121

3 YEAR membership renewal to a medieval group I participate in (SCA):
 $90

Shared Utilities and Home Items: 
 $58

Cell Phone service (which should be $25 but I forgot to downgrade):
 $35

Netflix:
 $13

Student Loan that I should just pay off already (Have money, dislike calling beauracratic places):
 $55

Two Uber/ Lyft Trips when the L train shut down and I was too lazy to walk to a different subway line:
 $61

Shopping (charger cord, Kindle book, paintbrush, makeup, etc):
$50

Monthly donation to the Against Malaria Foundation
$33

TOTAL:
$1452



Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 13, 2017, 10:47:46 AM
I did expect there to be more people over 50% at $100k but I also think there's a lot of high income earners that come to this site to start making changes. I bet people in the middle of their journey check in on the forum more often than people who have everything on auto-pilot. Also, like others mentioned a bias depending on how many people your income is supporting and likely somewhat of a bias on different cost of living areas although many people on this thread proved you can still save in a HCOL!
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 13, 2017, 10:49:48 AM
Here's a breakdown of my spending for the past 30 days:

Details: Living in NYC, have 3-4 apartment mates

Rent:         
  $740
Shared Utilities and Home Items: 
 $58
Two Uber/ Lyft Trips when the L train shut down and I was too lazy to walk to a different subway line:
$61

What about groceries or restaurants? Is that just included in home items. Awesome rental price for NYC though - having roommates is one of the most efficient ways to save money that many people refuse to try.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: dropspindl on June 13, 2017, 10:56:22 AM
Here's a breakdown of my spending for the past 30 days:

Details: Living in NYC, have 3-4 apartment mates

Rent:         
  $740
Shared Utilities and Home Items: 
 $58
Two Uber/ Lyft Trips when the L train shut down and I was too lazy to walk to a different subway line:
$61

What about groceries or restaurants? Is that just included in home items. Awesome rental price for NYC though - having roommates is one of the most efficient ways to save money that many people refuse to try.

I accidentally posted before I was done typing :P. It's fixed now!
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 13, 2017, 11:00:16 AM
Here's a breakdown of my spending for the past 30 days:

Details: Living in NYC, have 3-4 apartment mates

Rent:         
  $740
Shared Utilities and Home Items: 
 $58
Two Uber/ Lyft Trips when the L train shut down and I was too lazy to walk to a different subway line:
$61

What about groceries or restaurants? Is that just included in home items. Awesome rental price for NYC though - having roommates is one of the most efficient ways to save money that many people refuse to try.

I accidentally posted before I was done typing :P. It's fixed now!

Thanks for sharing! This is really, really helpful information to have. It seems like housing, transportation, and food costs can truly make or break a budget. Plus, cheap hobbies are a win. $90 for 3 years is a small price to pay. Plus you still found room in your budget to donate which is awesome!
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: VoteCthulu on June 13, 2017, 11:09:04 AM
I did expect there to be more people over 50% at $100k but I also think there's a lot of high income earners that come to this site to start making changes. I bet people in the middle of their journey check in on the forum more often than people who have everything on auto-pilot.
I consider myself on autopilot as I glide to my final number before pulling the cord, and I try to use the forum instead of tinkering with my accounts based on the hot news of the day.

I am a bit surprised at 11 people making $100k+ with less than 20% savings rate. Perhaps some retired folk with millions in investments or new Mustachians just starting out.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: dropspindl on June 13, 2017, 11:20:49 AM
Thanks!

The $90 SCA membership doesn't include ALL the SCA fees, just the membership fee. I still pay about $20 per event (which includes food, mead and ale, and occasionally overnight accomodation, so is still a WONDERFUL deal), and also spend money on project materials like paint and wool. I also pay people gas money to give me rides (when they'll accept it) and buy nicer-food-than-usual when we gather (which usually includes semi potluck).

For donating, I think we often forget exactly how rich we are when we compare it to the world. If you net $40k or more, you are in the top 2% worldwide, even adjusting for Purchasing Power Parity. As a member of the planetary wealthy elite I am happy to donate. I am also happy knowing HOW MUCH GOOD can be done with my money when it is given to some of the most effective charities such as the Against Malaria Foundation, the Schistosomiasis Control Initiative, or Give Directly. In places where the average person only makes $600/year (adjusted for PPP), relatively small amounts of money can go very far.

(SCA and effective giving are two things I'm passionate about :) )

You can find out how rich you really are on this calculator: https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-involved/how-rich-am-i/
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: StarBright on June 13, 2017, 11:28:19 AM
the most baffling thing to me is the number of people pulling over 100k who arent saving 50% or more of their income. I'd expect that to be a much lower number there.

I had that reaction also, but then I thought very probably those people are latecomers to MMM who are paying down debt.

Also the poll doesn't really account for how many people are being taken care of on that income. One parent working, one staying at home with 6 kids? 50% might be tough.

Yeah - my immediate assumption on this was two working parents and kids in full time childcare. But any configuration of working parents and more than 1 child have that number making a lot of sense to me (and is the personal reason why my family REALLY struggles to hit 50%).
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: marielle on June 13, 2017, 11:51:30 AM
60k income, looks like the first year of working I'll save a little over 50%, but I had some expenses that shouldn't repeat again. I bought a good bit of furniture (used), a mattress, a brand new bike, and caught up on some much needed preventative maintenance for the car. Possibly up to $5000 that I won't be spending again in the 2nd year of working.

I did live with a roommate, paid about $575 a month after utilities but currently looking at a roommate situation a LOT closer to work for only $400 a month. I may have a bit of an interesting budget if everything works out! Sub $1000 average monthly spending should be very doable after I move.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Bumperpuff on June 13, 2017, 12:54:25 PM
I'm earning $62K while living in Alaska.  My voluntary savings rate is 60% and my controllable. If I'm including involuntary savings and employer contributions I'm about 70% of gross income (not including health benefits).  My total living expenses run between $17k and $19K per year, not including income taxes and other non-voluntary paycheck deductions.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: CorpRaider on June 13, 2017, 01:18:53 PM
I need to step it up.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: VolcanicArts on June 13, 2017, 01:22:37 PM
the most baffling thing to me is the number of people pulling over 100k who arent saving 50% or more of their income. I'd expect that to be a much lower number there.

I had that reaction also, but then I thought very probably those people are latecomers to MMM who are paying down debt.

I think most likely a lot of that group are professionals who are grappling with high amounts of debt from their schooling. I think if they were Mustachians with no debt then they would be in at least the 40% savings rate range. When I was grappling with student loans my savings rate was a lot less than 50% where it is now. I plan to do a gradual jump to 60% once my side business is up and running in the next 3 months.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: NESailor on June 13, 2017, 02:17:37 PM
the most baffling thing to me is the number of people pulling over 100k who arent saving 50% or more of their income. I'd expect that to be a much lower number there.

I had that reaction also, but then I thought very probably those people are latecomers to MMM who are paying down debt.

I think most likely a lot of that group are professionals who are grappling with high amounts of debt from their schooling. I think if they were Mustachians with no debt then they would be in at least the 40% savings rate range. When I was grappling with student loans my savings rate was a lot less than 50% where it is now. I plan to do a gradual jump to 60% once my side business is up and running in the next 3 months.

A couple people including me brought up the kids / # of dependents situation.  100K household income with 2 earners and 2 kids is not a whole lot in many areas.  Daycare & housing will easily cost you 30%, taxes another 15% and you've still got to eat and so on...  Not hard to spend more than 50% of 100K on non-negotiable "fixed" costs.

Of course things get much easier once the 100+ income gets farther away from the bottom end of that range.  We are approaching 160K this year and our "fixed" costs will remain around 60K all in so we should be able to save more than half.

Very impressive numbers all around, though.  Especially from the lower ends and in HCOL areas!  Good job everyone!
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: BTDretire on June 13, 2017, 03:33:10 PM
I did expect there to be more people over 50% at $100k but I also think there's a lot of high income earners that come to this site to start making changes.

  I have a different take, I think there are a lot of readers that have not really embraced the "full on, hard core" 35% to 50% savings rate that a "full on, hard core mustachian" would think is the way to go about FIRE.
  The full on, hard core mustachian saving rate is not for everyone, but just getting people to save 20% will certainly make a difference in their lives. And maybe next year something will click.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: PoutineLover on June 13, 2017, 03:44:21 PM
I'm at about 40k gross, ~30% savings of net income. I want to increase my income to save more, because I've optimized as much as I can without sacrificing my quality of life too much. Luckily I live in a relatively inexpensive large city, and I have a good deal on rent to live alone, for me the benefit of not having roommates outweighs the potential 200 or so in savings. I know I could cut back on some entertainment and travel but the trade-off isn't worth it for me. Actively looking for a new job, so hopefully I'll move up a bracket in the survey soon!
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Raenia on June 13, 2017, 04:15:11 PM
I just squeaked into the 50-75k/50%+ category.  Last year I grossed ~56k, and my savings rate hovers around 55%.  That's supporting just one person, though.  Hoping to pull that up to 60% this year, but I'm not quite on track for that so far.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: SpareChange on June 13, 2017, 06:42:47 PM
On pace to make 85-90k this year, and so far saving 75% of net.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: lexde on June 13, 2017, 06:45:50 PM
65K/55% net
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: WYOGO on June 13, 2017, 07:28:08 PM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: DaKini on June 14, 2017, 03:36:10 AM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.
They just have no time to reply because fire is approaching so fast ;)

With 100k gross income i would save about 70% net easily. I would fire in 3 years or so.
Sadly i am way more down (60k € gross) but currently feed a family of four, so still doing great in my opinion.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 14, 2017, 06:01:40 AM
Well I created this poll and am one of the 100+ 50%+ people so I'm replying at least lol. I think a lot of us don't have much to add. Personally since I don't have kids yet I feel as though it would be hard for me to not save that much. I don't even necessarily feel like a super frugal b.a. because my life is easy and full of luxury. One of the reasons I created this poll because I want to be able to give advice to people in lower salary ranges on my podcast without coming across as super out-of-touch - figured absorbing other peoples stories is one strong way I can try to do that.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Mmm_Donuts on June 14, 2017, 06:44:14 AM
I'm on the lower income scale here, but am working PT and semi FIREd. I don't really know my savings rate yet, because I just went back to working PT and am not sure what I'll make this year. Aiming to set aside 50%, but some of this could be for future spending. I like having a lot of EF padding in case I go through long periods without work.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: rockstache on June 14, 2017, 07:07:11 AM
Well I created this poll and am one of the 100+ 50%+ people so I'm replying at least lol. I think a lot of us don't have much to add. Personally since I don't have kids yet I feel as though it would be hard for me to not save that much. I don't even necessarily feel like a super frugal b.a. because my life is easy and full of luxury. One of the reasons I created this poll because I want to be able to give advice to people in lower salary ranges on my podcast without coming across as super out-of-touch - figured absorbing other peoples stories is one strong way I can try to do that.

I am one and also don't have much to say about it. We're DINKs, so that makes it easier, although I don't know if we will remain so, and if we have a kid, I may quit working, which would push the FIRE date out significantly. Since we don't know our future plans, we just stash away while also trying to enjoy life. We do save a lot, but we don't have super low spending.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: StarBright on June 14, 2017, 07:21:46 AM
Well I created this poll and am one of the 100+ 50%+ people so I'm replying at least lol. I think a lot of us don't have much to add. Personally since I don't have kids yet I feel as though it would be hard for me to not save that much. I don't even necessarily feel like a super frugal b.a. because my life is easy and full of luxury. One of the reasons I created this poll because I want to be able to give advice to people in lower salary ranges on my podcast without coming across as super out-of-touch - figured absorbing other peoples stories is one strong way I can try to do that.

If DH and I were living as individuals we'd both be 50k-75k and saving between 20%-50%. Together we are 100+ but still saving between 20% and 50% - the combined power of having someone to split expenses with is effectively wiped out by two kids in full time childcare.

Last year we came in at the high end of the range for savings though (somewhere in the 40% range)  - I'm happy to PM you the budget/spending if you want.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: prognastat on June 14, 2017, 07:27:34 AM
We are DINKs and both work so those help a lot and though we don't live in a LCOL area, it's also not HCOL nationally speaking. We make >120k per year and manage to save about 60% of it. This savings rate is more recent though as I found MMM about three years ago and at the time we had a much lower income and probably had a savings rate closer to 20%, my wife wasn't on board right away and so I managed to maybe get the savings rate up to 30-40%. This year I managed to get my wife more on board though which has managed to boost it to the 60% we are currently sitting at.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: wenchsenior on June 14, 2017, 07:30:33 AM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.

I'm one of them...we gross about 130K, and save about 52% of take home.

No need to comment, I thought...because it doesn't take much in the way of skills to save this much once you go over 100K gross.  Also, we are DINK (though partially supporting some other family, so maybe that's the equivalent cost of 1 kid, I dunno).  Now, those of you who are saving large percentages who make less (sometimes a lot less)? THAT is really impressive.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 14, 2017, 07:41:27 AM
Well I created this poll and am one of the 100+ 50%+ people so I'm replying at least lol. I think a lot of us don't have much to add. Personally since I don't have kids yet I feel as though it would be hard for me to not save that much. I don't even necessarily feel like a super frugal b.a. because my life is easy and full of luxury. One of the reasons I created this poll because I want to be able to give advice to people in lower salary ranges on my podcast without coming across as super out-of-touch - figured absorbing other peoples stories is one strong way I can try to do that.

If DH and I were living as individuals we'd both be 50k-75k and saving between 20%-50%. Together we are 100+ but still saving between 20% and 50% - the combined power of having someone to split expenses with is effectively wiped out by two kids in full time childcare.

Last year we came in at the high end of the range for savings though (somewhere in the 40% range)  - I'm happy to PM you the budget/spending if you want.

Please do! I'd love comparing my expenses against someone with a kid. Thanks!
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: caracarn on June 14, 2017, 07:41:36 AM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.
I'd love to be in the 50% savings rate, but kids make that really, really hard.  That's the one "message" of MMM that never resonated with me, is that he makes it seem like it is so simple to save over half your income with children because he did it with one child who seems to not have gotten pulled into organized activities etc.  If we had really embraced the frugal lifestyle earlier before we had all the kids, maybe our savings rate would be higher, but I did not post a comment because frankly I feel like a big failure in this realm.  We make close to $200K but are lucky if we achieve anything over a 23% savings rate.  Saving for college, vacations and other things just make it untenable to reach the higher savings rates.  The blog posts do not address this and therefore when I speak to friends (who are also mainly married with multiple kids) the lifestyle seems a dream because no one is going to uproot their family to move within walking distance to work every time they change a job because the kids need continuity in school for example and leaving a terrific school district to move to an inner city one to be able to bike to work seems like a pretty crappy tradeoff to make to risk your kids entire future earning potential on a selfish desire to want to save an extra 10%.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: caracarn on June 14, 2017, 07:44:23 AM
the most baffling thing to me is the number of people pulling over 100k who arent saving 50% or more of their income. I'd expect that to be a much lower number there.

I had that reaction also, but then I thought very probably those people are latecomers to MMM who are paying down debt.
Nope.  See my post above.  No debt other than the mortgage.  Having six kids makes it hard to save 50% of your income.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Bird In Hand on June 14, 2017, 10:12:02 AM
I find computing "savings rate" to be ambiguous and tedious.  I know that we currently save about $72,000/year, but that includes employer match for retirement accounts and mortgage principal payments.  I know many would bristle at including those as part of "savings."  #dontcare -- it all adds up to a greater nest-egg and lower expenses in retirement, and I'm just trying to make those two meet at a SWR we're comfortable with.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 14, 2017, 10:39:40 AM
I find computing "savings rate" to be ambiguous and tedious.  I know that we currently save about $72,000/year, but that includes employer match for retirement accounts and mortgage principal payments.  I know many would bristle at including those as part of "savings."  #dontcare -- it all adds up to a greater nest-egg and lower expenses in retirement, and I'm just trying to make those two meet at a SWR we're comfortable with.

I agree - I just figured out how to best calculate a savings rate that works for me and stick to the same measure to track progress year-over-year. For the sake of the poll I figured it didn't matter if people were calculating it absolutely perfectly since in many cases it won't affect the result too drastically.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 14, 2017, 10:40:27 AM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.
I'd love to be in the 50% savings rate, but kids make that really, really hard.  That's the one "message" of MMM that never resonated with me, is that he makes it seem like it is so simple to save over half your income with children because he did it with one child who seems to not have gotten pulled into organized activities etc.  If we had really embraced the frugal lifestyle earlier before we had all the kids, maybe our savings rate would be higher, but I did not post a comment because frankly I feel like a big failure in this realm.  We make close to $200K but are lucky if we achieve anything over a 23% savings rate.  Saving for college, vacations and other things just make it untenable to reach the higher savings rates.  The blog posts do not address this and therefore when I speak to friends (who are also mainly married with multiple kids) the lifestyle seems a dream because no one is going to uproot their family to move within walking distance to work every time they change a job because the kids need continuity in school for example and leaving a terrific school district to move to an inner city one to be able to bike to work seems like a pretty crappy tradeoff to make to risk your kids entire future earning potential on a selfish desire to want to save an extra 10%.

if you're pulling 200k and only saving 46k you have alot more holes that could be plugged than moving closer to work.  obvisously you're making active choices not to b/c you've deamed that important to you.  but i'd be willing to wager you're not close to optimizing the choices you're making if youre saving that little on such a large salary.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 14, 2017, 10:45:45 AM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.
I'd love to be in the 50% savings rate, but kids make that really, really hard.  That's the one "message" of MMM that never resonated with me, is that he makes it seem like it is so simple to save over half your income with children because he did it with one child who seems to not have gotten pulled into organized activities etc.  If we had really embraced the frugal lifestyle earlier before we had all the kids, maybe our savings rate would be higher, but I did not post a comment because frankly I feel like a big failure in this realm.  We make close to $200K but are lucky if we achieve anything over a 23% savings rate.  Saving for college, vacations and other things just make it untenable to reach the higher savings rates.  The blog posts do not address this and therefore when I speak to friends (who are also mainly married with multiple kids) the lifestyle seems a dream because no one is going to uproot their family to move within walking distance to work every time they change a job because the kids need continuity in school for example and leaving a terrific school district to move to an inner city one to be able to bike to work seems like a pretty crappy tradeoff to make to risk your kids entire future earning potential on a selfish desire to want to save an extra 10%.

I understand this. I think it's hard to write about experiences that are not your own so MMM can only reflect on his life. I teach financial literacy to inner city high schoolers who are nearing graduation and for them I recommend a savings rate of 10% so you're still beating the 'average advice' rate. Most Americans do not have even $500 saved up in case of an emergency so really you're not doing bad at all. I think it's hard on this forum because we fall into the comparison trap and there's always someone doing things better. Keep in mind you're doing the best you can and still much better than average. I've talked to many people who have this 'all-or-nothing' mindset when it comes to savings and I like to remind them that any is better than nothing! So when I start working with people who save 0% getting them to 10% is a huge accomplishment even if it may not lead to super early FIRE that we all like to talk about on here.

I guess my point is: Have your own goals and enjoy the life you've created. Personally I will never be as frugal as MMM because i really do love to travel but at the same time I don't complain about working longer because I know it's a choice I'm making. So enjoy giving your kids the life you want them to have, you're doing great anyway.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: TornWonder on June 14, 2017, 10:54:18 AM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.

I'm one of them...we gross about 130K, and save about 52% of take home.

No need to comment, I thought...because it doesn't take much in the way of skills to save this much once you go over 100K gross.  Also, we are DINK (though partially supporting some other family, so maybe that's the equivalent cost of 1 kid, I dunno).  Now, those of you who are saving large percentages who make less (sometimes a lot less)? THAT is really impressive.

Yeah, I'm a single guy that makes a good salary, my savings rate is >60%, but it's not really something to brag about and I don't really think talking about my situation would be that helpful to anybody on here.  People that earn the amount I spend and still save half are the true heroes on here.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: caracarn on June 14, 2017, 11:48:38 AM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.
I'd love to be in the 50% savings rate, but kids make that really, really hard.  That's the one "message" of MMM that never resonated with me, is that he makes it seem like it is so simple to save over half your income with children because he did it with one child who seems to not have gotten pulled into organized activities etc.  If we had really embraced the frugal lifestyle earlier before we had all the kids, maybe our savings rate would be higher, but I did not post a comment because frankly I feel like a big failure in this realm.  We make close to $200K but are lucky if we achieve anything over a 23% savings rate.  Saving for college, vacations and other things just make it untenable to reach the higher savings rates.  The blog posts do not address this and therefore when I speak to friends (who are also mainly married with multiple kids) the lifestyle seems a dream because no one is going to uproot their family to move within walking distance to work every time they change a job because the kids need continuity in school for example and leaving a terrific school district to move to an inner city one to be able to bike to work seems like a pretty crappy tradeoff to make to risk your kids entire future earning potential on a selfish desire to want to save an extra 10%.

if you're pulling 200k and only saving 46k you have alot more holes that could be plugged than moving closer to work.  obvisously you're making active choices not to b/c you've deamed that important to you.  but i'd be willing to wager you're not close to optimizing the choices you're making if youre saving that little on such a large salary.
Point being I don't consider them "holes" but MMM process would.  We are saving about $50K/year for the college funds for our six kids.  In this process not part of the saving rate, because it does not get me to FIRE, but now something I'd consider not optimized.  Your response though is my point.  I've got a mortgage for a house to fit 8 people in and not have us sharing 2 bedrooms to "optimize".  We needed a car to move 8 people around as I did not think a Honda Fit with a few skateboards attached would be looked at too kindly by my local law enforcement or child services as I asked 4-5 of the kids to sit on the skateboards and hold on as we drive the family around so that I can optimize the savings rate.  Car is paid off, but it has operating costs that are not "optimized" because it burns more gas than a compact car.  I also drive kids to activities they are part of rather than ask them to bike everywhere.  For the older kids we have a car for them to use to get to work as biking back from McDonald's for an hour at 2 AM when they close the store versus getting home in 10 minutes is probably again not going to earn me any points from child services.  My wife and I both work, so no one there to get the kids to work using one of our cars.  I have to insure said cars.  I've gotten feedback on our grocery bill for the 8 people being between $600-$800/month as being pretty good in another thread here.  Is there some waste, but the reaction of "not close to optimizing" is exactly my point of why for anything other than a small family or people with no kids, the MMM bar is so high as to make it seem improbable at all to most people.  In my circle at least, when I present the topic and they go check out the website it's never covered in depth at this level.

ETA: Also, that $200K is our combined salaries.  Taxes come out of that number and dwindle it down just a tad.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Jaguar Paw on June 14, 2017, 12:18:21 PM
Household we make around 170k and save around 80k, including automatic 10% to pension. We both have 18 years until we plan on re (at 50) and can start drawing our pensions. Will be fi way before that but we are currently not in a rush.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Optimiser on June 14, 2017, 12:22:39 PM
I usually calculate my savings rate based on take home pay and I'm looking for gross income.

73,000 Gross and I saved 27% of my take home pay.

2 adults and 2 kids

Full disclosure: I count debt principal payments in my savings rate, I know some consider this to be incorrect.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Incandenza on June 14, 2017, 12:36:02 PM
Quote
We are saving about $50K/year for the college funds for our six kids. 

I get saving heavily for college education--I do it too.  But this isn't about the MMM philosophy not working for you, it's about you not fully embracing that philosophy.  MMM would never endorse saving almost 10k per kid, and few around here would do that.   

There's nothing wrong with not agreeing with every tenet on this website.  I save a lot for college, spend more than would be advised (around here) on food, and put a lot of money into our house.  As a result, I'm around 35-40% savings rate on around 150k earnings.  But again, this isn't about whether the principles work or are unfair; it's about me picking and choosing what works for my own happiness.     

MMM has also written an article about why he only had one kid, and how having more children is likely to delay FIRE. 
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Much Fishing to Do on June 14, 2017, 12:52:25 PM
Due to owning a business with extreme fluctuations and spouse being SAHM, In the last 10 years I've seen income anywhere from $50k to $500k. 

We've always spent pretty much whatever we "wanted", which was of course seemed bad when income was low and good when high.  Over the last 15 years as family grew and lifestyle inflated spending went from about $45k to about $80k.  Given the extreme changing income I never really tracked savings rate...just kept up with expenses as ratio of invested assets.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: rockstache on June 14, 2017, 01:41:38 PM
For the older kids we have a car for them to use to get to work as biking back from McDonald's for an hour at 2 AM when they close the store versus getting home in 10 minutes is probably again not going to earn me any points from child services. 

Where do you live that kids (ages 13-17?) can work until 2 AM?
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: caracarn on June 14, 2017, 01:45:33 PM
For the older kids we have a car for them to use to get to work as biking back from McDonald's for an hour at 2 AM when they close the store versus getting home in 10 minutes is probably again not going to earn me any points from child services. 

Where do you live that kids (ages 13-17?) can work until 2 AM?
Ohio.  They need a form filled out from employer each week that shows they are driving back from work if it is after midnight (until 1 year after license obtained) or 1 AM (until 18).
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: rockstache on June 14, 2017, 01:49:05 PM
Wow that's awful. In my area kids under 16 have to be out of work by 9pm and kids under 18 have to be out by 11pm. It's so strict that the managers used to literally lock the doors behind us so they didn't get caught with us on the premises.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 14, 2017, 01:51:49 PM
Quote
We are saving about $50K/year for the college funds for our six kids. 

I get saving heavily for college education--I do it too.  But this isn't about the MMM philosophy not working for you, it's about you not fully embracing that philosophy.  MMM would never endorse saving almost 10k per kid, and few around here would do that.   

There's nothing wrong with not agreeing with every tenet on this website.  I save a lot for college, spend more than would be advised (around here) on food, and put a lot of money into our house.  As a result, I'm around 35-40% savings rate on around 150k earnings.  But again, this isn't about whether the principles work or are unfair; it's about me picking and choosing what works for my own happiness.     

MMM has also written an article about why he only had one kid, and how having more children is likely to delay FIRE.

posts like these make me want to start blogs about optimizing.  if i were to just list out my lifestyle everyone here would say No F'n way you're saving 67% of around 170k gross on that but yes ... yes we are. 
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Lan Mandragoran on June 14, 2017, 01:55:40 PM
Wait ... caracarn another wheel of timer! Anyway...

Lot's in the high brackets but not as high of a % as I would have guessed given the relatively low polling #'s.

Wife and Kid.

Take home = ~ 6100
Double 15 year mortgages = 1950(Id love to be in 30 years but cant) (so equity gained on this averages out to 1500 a month)
Invest = 1800-2000(including some work, 1400 straight of our budget)
Other expenses budget = 2400~ (id do lower but wife isnt quite as mustachian :) )


1800 to 2000+ 1500 = 3300 to 3500 a month put towards networth.

Not sure exactly what people would say my savings rate is, id put it at 40-55%. We were struggling to get above 25%(while actively trying mind you) when I started reading MMM ~6 months ago. So im thankful for that :).

Oh and 8-9k per year per kid for college seems kinda high to me personally.... Was only about 5-6k*4 years for me about 5 years ago.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: SnidelyWhiplashStache on June 14, 2017, 02:07:59 PM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.
I'd love to be in the 50% savings rate, but kids make that really, really hard.  That's the one "message" of MMM that never resonated with me, is that he makes it seem like it is so simple to save over half your income with children because he did it with one child who seems to not have gotten pulled into organized activities etc.  If we had really embraced the frugal lifestyle earlier before we had all the kids, maybe our savings rate would be higher, but I did not post a comment because frankly I feel like a big failure in this realm.  We make close to $200K but are lucky if we achieve anything over a 23% savings rate.  Saving for college, vacations and other things just make it untenable to reach the higher savings rates.  The blog posts do not address this and therefore when I speak to friends (who are also mainly married with multiple kids) the lifestyle seems a dream because no one is going to uproot their family to move within walking distance to work every time they change a job because the kids need continuity in school for example and leaving a terrific school district to move to an inner city one to be able to bike to work seems like a pretty crappy tradeoff to make to risk your kids entire future earning potential on a selfish desire to want to save an extra 10%.

if you're pulling 200k and only saving 46k you have alot more holes that could be plugged than moving closer to work.  obvisously you're making active choices not to b/c you've deamed that important to you.  but i'd be willing to wager you're not close to optimizing the choices you're making if youre saving that little on such a large salary.
Point being I don't consider them "holes" but MMM process would.  We are saving about $50K/year for the college funds for our six kids.  In this process not part of the saving rate, because it does not get me to FIRE, but now something I'd consider not optimized.  Your response though is my point.  I've got a mortgage for a house to fit 8 people in and not have us sharing 2 bedrooms to "optimize".  We needed a car to move 8 people around as I did not think a Honda Fit with a few skateboards attached would be looked at too kindly by my local law enforcement or child services as I asked 4-5 of the kids to sit on the skateboards and hold on as we drive the family around so that I can optimize the savings rate.  Car is paid off, but it has operating costs that are not "optimized" because it burns more gas than a compact car.  I also drive kids to activities they are part of rather than ask them to bike everywhere.  For the older kids we have a car for them to use to get to work as biking back from McDonald's for an hour at 2 AM when they close the store versus getting home in 10 minutes is probably again not going to earn me any points from child services.  My wife and I both work, so no one there to get the kids to work using one of our cars.  I have to insure said cars.  I've gotten feedback on our grocery bill for the 8 people being between $600-$800/month as being pretty good in another thread here.  Is there some waste, but the reaction of "not close to optimizing" is exactly my point of why for anything other than a small family or people with no kids, the MMM bar is so high as to make it seem improbable at all to most people.  In my circle at least, when I present the topic and they go check out the website it's never covered in depth at this level.

ETA: Also, that $200K is our combined salaries.  Taxes come out of that number and dwindle it down just a tad.

Exactly.  Optimizing choices is just that.  CHOICES.  We all make different choices based on where we are in life.  Income, location, kids, etc.  I empathize with you caracarn.  My wife and I make combined $200+ and save about $50k/year.  We have lived a lifestyle that has suited us.  It hasn't been exactly Mustachian but we have done well for ourselves and yet provided quite well for our three kids (help get three through college with no debt).  At 55 I have only recently decided that I am ready to retire.  I didn't FIRE earlier due to several reasons, the most overriding being I loved my job.  Now, not so much so I am preparing to FIRE within the year. 

Keep on keeping on and you will get there.  Cheers.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 14, 2017, 03:39:50 PM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.
I'd love to be in the 50% savings rate, but kids make that really, really hard.  That's the one "message" of MMM that never resonated with me, is that he makes it seem like it is so simple to save over half your income with children because he did it with one child who seems to not have gotten pulled into organized activities etc.  If we had really embraced the frugal lifestyle earlier before we had all the kids, maybe our savings rate would be higher, but I did not post a comment because frankly I feel like a big failure in this realm.  We make close to $200K but are lucky if we achieve anything over a 23% savings rate.  Saving for college, vacations and other things just make it untenable to reach the higher savings rates.  The blog posts do not address this and therefore when I speak to friends (who are also mainly married with multiple kids) the lifestyle seems a dream because no one is going to uproot their family to move within walking distance to work every time they change a job because the kids need continuity in school for example and leaving a terrific school district to move to an inner city one to be able to bike to work seems like a pretty crappy tradeoff to make to risk your kids entire future earning potential on a selfish desire to want to save an extra 10%.

if you're pulling 200k and only saving 46k you have alot more holes that could be plugged than moving closer to work.  obvisously you're making active choices not to b/c you've deamed that important to you.  but i'd be willing to wager you're not close to optimizing the choices you're making if youre saving that little on such a large salary.
Point being I don't consider them "holes" but MMM process would.  We are saving about $50K/year for the college funds for our six kids.  In this process not part of the saving rate, because it does not get me to FIRE, but now something I'd consider not optimized.  Your response though is my point.  I've got a mortgage for a house to fit 8 people in and not have us sharing 2 bedrooms to "optimize".  We needed a car to move 8 people around as I did not think a Honda Fit with a few skateboards attached would be looked at too kindly by my local law enforcement or child services as I asked 4-5 of the kids to sit on the skateboards and hold on as we drive the family around so that I can optimize the savings rate.  Car is paid off, but it has operating costs that are not "optimized" because it burns more gas than a compact car.  I also drive kids to activities they are part of rather than ask them to bike everywhere.  For the older kids we have a car for them to use to get to work as biking back from McDonald's for an hour at 2 AM when they close the store versus getting home in 10 minutes is probably again not going to earn me any points from child services.  My wife and I both work, so no one there to get the kids to work using one of our cars.  I have to insure said cars.  I've gotten feedback on our grocery bill for the 8 people being between $600-$800/month as being pretty good in another thread here.  Is there some waste, but the reaction of "not close to optimizing" is exactly my point of why for anything other than a small family or people with no kids, the MMM bar is so high as to make it seem improbable at all to most people.  In my circle at least, when I present the topic and they go check out the website it's never covered in depth at this level.

ETA: Also, that $200K is our combined salaries.  Taxes come out of that number and dwindle it down just a tad.

Exactly.  Optimizing choices is just that.  CHOICES.  We all make different choices based on where we are in life.  Income, location, kids, etc.  I empathize with you caracarn.  My wife and I make combined $200+ and save about $50k/year.  We have lived a lifestyle that has suited us.  It hasn't been exactly Mustachian but we have done well for ourselves and yet provided quite well for our three kids (help get three through college with no debt).  At 55 I have only recently decided that I am ready to retire.  I didn't FIRE earlier due to several reasons, the most overriding being I loved my job.  Now, not so much so I am preparing to FIRE within the year. 

Keep on keeping on and you will get there.  Cheers.

this isnt a forum where we actively promote saving 25% of your income on a 200k salary.  i'm sure there is somewhere for that... but i dont consider this to be valuable advice or commeraderie around this place.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: monstermonster on June 14, 2017, 04:07:09 PM
For the older kids we have a car for them to use to get to work as biking back from McDonald's for an hour at 2 AM when they close the store versus getting home in 10 minutes is probably again not going to earn me any points from child services. 

Where do you live that kids (ages 13-17?) can work until 2 AM?
Ohio.  They need a form filled out from employer each week that shows they are driving back from work if it is after midnight (until 1 year after license obtained) or 1 AM (until 18).
Wow, it must've changed a lot. When I worked in OH as a minor (2000-2005) and supervised minors (2005-06), minors were not allowed to 1) use scissors or box cutters on the job or 2) work later than 10PM.

It was extremely strict, we got fined $10K for every violation of a minor working after 10PM (or 9PM when under 16) - large grocery store so our fines were high. Also very strict break rules and alcohol handling rules, thanks to a history of minor labor abuse in Ohio's agricultural and factory history. I always thought it was a bit too restrictive.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Classical_Liberal on June 14, 2017, 04:20:45 PM
This poll doesn't surprise me.  The forum seems heavily weighted in the high earner/average spending as opposed to average earner/low spending.  I think we would do well to understand those demographics.

I think its important to remember median HH income in the US in only about 55K for 2.5 people, even without considering taxes 22K spending per person.  Assume a relatively low tax burden of 10% and you get below 20K per person with a 0 savings rate.  I think those living on less than this in the forum is limited.

this isnt a forum where we actively promote saving 25% of your income on a 200k salary.  i'm sure there is somewhere for that... but i dont consider this to be valuable advice or commeraderie around this place.
It's shifting more and more this way since I've been reading over the past two-three years. 

Personally, I voted 75-100 with greater than 50%, but that's post tax and I'm single w/o dependents.  Even at a 70+% post tax savings rate I'm not too impressed with myself.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Classical_Liberal on June 14, 2017, 04:34:48 PM
Here (http://www.epi.org/resources/budget/) is a budget calculator for a "modest lifestyle" budget.  You can pick geographic area and family size. I used this as a tool for myself by subtracting the tax (as this will vary with income) and using the remaining amounts as a baseline "high" spending for myself no matter where I move for my employment.

I think the categories are off, but the total spending minus taxes is a good gauge regarding how Mustachian spending should look.  If I'm below by more than 10% I'm happy, if above I suck. Just one guys opinion.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: TwoWorlds on June 14, 2017, 04:52:10 PM
We gross 279k savings rate  35%  Family of four with one in college and one in grade school.  Working on getting that up to 40% this year.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: monstermonster on June 14, 2017, 05:04:35 PM
Here (http://www.epi.org/resources/budget/) is a budget calculator for a "modest lifestyle" budget.  You can pick geographic area and family size. I used this as a tool for myself by subtracting the tax (as this will vary with income) and using the remaining amounts as a baseline "high" spending for myself no matter where I move for my employment.
Thank you for sharing that survey! It's very interesting. It looks like they're using pretty old data for housing in PDX, since it reports that single person family can obtain a studio apartment in the Portland metro area for $666 a month including utilities.

It's hard to even find a multiple-roommate situation for that amount, let alone a studio apartment (the median here is $1350 a month now for a studio, rent increasing 15% per year on average, no caps.)
(http://i.imgur.com/g22PiYj.png)

But it also says $450 for transportation (which I spend $15 a month on average) and $270 for groceries (I average $155), so it comes out in the wash.

$30K is definitely more than I'm on track to make this year, and that's the number it says for a modest lifestyle, so that seems fair.
My lifestyle is slightly more modest than their "modest" lifestyle, but that's partially necessitated by lower income and the fact that I've only made more than $30K for 2.5 years of my 12-year career, so I'm not generally accustomed to that lifestyle.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Fire2025 on June 14, 2017, 06:22:59 PM
Here (http://www.epi.org/resources/budget/) is a budget calculator for a "modest lifestyle" budget.  You can pick geographic area and family size.

I think the categories are off, but the total spending minus taxes is a good gauge regarding how Mustachian spending should look.  If I'm below by more than 10% I'm happy, if above I suck. Just one guys opinion.

Thanks, this is interesting.  It says $47,000 for the Los Angeles area.  I'm only high on the housing, I agree, the housing is off.  I'm making it work on less than $30,000 w/a mortgage, WooHoo!!!!
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: StarBright on June 14, 2017, 06:41:59 PM

this isnt a forum where we actively promote saving 25% of your income on a 200k salary.  i'm sure there is somewhere for that... but i dont consider this to be valuable advice or commeraderie around this place.

FWIW - I think a lot of us are on this forum specifically because there aren't many other forums for people who are basically interested in a non-consumer lifestyle.

I'm might be interested in early retirement (definitely interested in scaling back my job eventually), my DH is definitely is not interested in RE - but I love reading about people's DIY hacks, frugal meal plans, and strategies for saving just a bit more. As a parent I also appreciate the community of parents here who all seem to be interested in raising kids in a similar way to me.

Maybe we need a SWAMI category?
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Lmoot on June 14, 2017, 06:44:49 PM
Income about 50-60k savings rate between 60-70%

Monthly expenses:

$425 house payment minus taxes
$400 cc min on $35k @ 0% interest
$250 groceries
$200 (my portion of utilities/internet)
$200 misc/entertainment (high end)
$75 car insurance
$50 water/ trash for rental property
$40 phone
$30 gas (I work from home)

Yearly expenses:
$500 property tax

Total/month = about $1670
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 14, 2017, 07:57:17 PM
I know this forum is known for face punches and promoting high savings rates but I also think if someone is making choices and isn't complaining about working longer because of them then they're still fitting in here. To me the mustachian way is about owning the financial decisions you make and achieving your goals. Which for many of us is early retirement but even that is defined differently​ for  different people. Now if someone was saving 25% but complaining that they couldn't possibly cut back more and whining that they couldn't retire early I think face punches would be in order. But even MMM himself admits he inflates his spending on things like organic food, travel, etc. I think the bigger goal is to stop complaining and take ownership of your finances. Whether that means saving 90% or 10% makes no difference if you're happy and aware of the opportunity costs associated with your decisions.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: jed2009 on June 14, 2017, 08:16:15 PM
I make about 60k gross a year.  Net comes out to around 1690 per 2 weeks.  After deducting insurance, etc. I end up with about 1640.  My bi-weekly savings are approximately as follows:
Savings (usually to student loan): 400
Student loan: 167
401k: 115
Roth: 150

Puts me at around 51% savings.  Including mortgage payment principal of around 135/2wks it goes up to around 59%.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Classical_Liberal on June 15, 2017, 12:54:21 AM
Thank you for sharing that survey! It's very interesting. It looks like they're using pretty old data for housing in PDX, since it reports that single person family can obtain a studio apartment in the Portland metro area for $666 a month including utilities.

It's hard to even find a multiple-roommate situation for that amount, let alone a studio apartment (the median here is $1350 a month now for a studio, rent increasing 15% per year on average, no caps.)

Thanks, this is interesting.  It says $47,000 for the Los Angeles area.  I'm only high on the housing, I agree, the housing is off.  I'm making it work on less than $30,000 w/a mortgage, WooHoo!!!!

The housing category has  been low in every area I've used it for, so you are both right on!  In other categories it seems to be high, so the total seems to be about right for a "no frills" type of standard inefficient spending.  I would think the average Mustachian should be able to live pretty well on the estimated amounts. I know I do & its why I used it as a high end range.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: dreams_and_discoveries on June 15, 2017, 01:10:18 AM
It's a good poll, and as others have said, it's skewing in the way we'd expect; toward the high earning and high savings rates.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: ToughMother on June 15, 2017, 04:22:03 AM
$110K/65.7% savings rate this year

caveat 1: interior remodeling work and wedding this year, so lower than usual rate

caveat 2: just got major promotion and raise on May 1.  In past, $$ significantly lower and savings rate a bit lower too
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Lmoot on June 15, 2017, 05:25:32 AM
$110K/65.7% savings rate this year

caveat 1: interior remodeling work and wedding this year, so lower than usual rate

caveat 2: just got major promotion and raise on May 1.  In past, $$ significantly lower and savings rate a bit lower too

Did you save for the wedding/remodel? If so, then I would personally consider that as part of the savings rate. I don't know if, or how, the intention of the poll is to account for what you spend those savings on.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: eyePod on June 15, 2017, 05:36:11 AM
Our savings rate has definitely gone down. 2 kids in daycare. Will have a 3rd. On top of that, we were saving for a down payment, pulled back on the move, and now we're saving for potential unpaid leave with #3.

In the end though, we've upped our retirement contributions and are almost maxing out, which is a big increase as well. I want to be 'saving' more, but we also tend to have a lot of emergency funds (real emergency fund with 3 months of minimum payments, then there's the hot water heater fund, the hvac fund, the furnace fund, the car repair fund).

And anyone arguing about pre-post tax is getting too far into the weeds. This isn't scientific here, it's the spirit. 10% vs. 11% isn't the point. It's 10% vs. 20% vs. 50%.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Mmm_Donuts on June 15, 2017, 05:51:31 AM

this isnt a forum where we actively promote saving 25% of your income on a 200k salary.  i'm sure there is somewhere for that... but i dont consider this to be valuable advice or commeraderie around this place.

FWIW - I think a lot of us are on this forum specifically because there aren't many other forums for people who are basically interested in a non-consumer lifestyle.

I'm might be interested in early retirement (definitely interested in scaling back my job eventually), my DH definitely is not interested in RE - but I love reading about people's DIY hacks, frugal meal plans, and strategies for saving just a bit more. As a parent I also appreciate the community of parents here who all seem to be interested in raising kids in a similar way to me.

Maybe we need a SWAMI category?

+ 1

Also I find it pretty rude for one member to tell another member who's doing their best that their comments / presence aren't valued here. I've seen comments like border 42's above before and it makes the forum seem like a cult. If the mods wanted a cult they should publish quantifiable membership requirements like "thou shalt save 70% of net income or over to join these sacred halls or be forever banished to live be in your own forumless squalor, mediocrity, and wastefulness, you shameless sinners!"

I've found great benefit from the forum and hopefully have offered the occasional useful comment but there's no way in hell im living off 30k a year like MMM. I live by the simple tenets of "don't buy stupid shit" and "spend less than you earn" and in my books I'm mustachian enough to enjoy and contribute to this forum.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: SnidelyWhiplashStache on June 15, 2017, 06:00:19 AM
I know this forum is known for face punches and promoting high savings rates but I also think if someone is making choices and isn't complaining about working longer because of them then they're still fitting in here. To me the mustachian way is about owning the financial decisions you make and achieving your goals. Which for many of us is early retirement but even that is defined differently​ for  different people. Now if someone was saving 25% but complaining that they couldn't possibly cut back more and whining that they couldn't retire early I think face punches would be in order. But even MMM himself admits he inflates his spending on things like organic food, travel, etc. I think the bigger goal is to stop complaining and take ownership of your finances. Whether that means saving 90% or 10% makes no difference if you're happy and aware of the opportunity costs associated with your decisions.

Bingo.  This is what I was trying to say but you expressed it much more succinctly.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 15, 2017, 07:18:42 AM
I know this forum is known for face punches and promoting high savings rates but I also think if someone is making choices and isn't complaining about working longer because of them then they're still fitting in here. To me the mustachian way is about owning the financial decisions you make and achieving your goals. Which for many of us is early retirement but even that is defined differently​ for  different people. Now if someone was saving 25% but complaining that they couldn't possibly cut back more and whining that they couldn't retire early I think face punches would be in order. But even MMM himself admits he inflates his spending on things like organic food, travel, etc. I think the bigger goal is to stop complaining and take ownership of your finances. Whether that means saving 90% or 10% makes no difference if you're happy and aware of the opportunity costs associated with your decisions.

Bingo.  This is what I was trying to say but you expressed it much more succinctly.

does not mean we still shouldnt be face punching people for their choices or lack of willingness to optimize and try to push them in the right direction.  the posters posting about these low savings rates have low posting rates ... which can be inferred to mean new.(it may not be but likely is)  with 8 posts its highly unlikely you've done a case study.  Its human nature to seek out support for your decisions.  But the real hard truth is its HIGHLY ... very HIGHLY unlikely those making over 100k(and closer to 200k from those combatting this) truly are optimizing things when only saving 25% of income.  most in that realm that are big spenders still are finding this forum much later in life and have hard fast ideas about how this all works and are less open minded to change their life style.  "i'm 55 and i loved my job"  maybe b/c you didnt realize there were other options b/c FIRE forums didnt exist when you were 25.  it also takes a certain level of ego to climb to these higher salaries typically.  and no one likes to look back and say shit i could have been doing this a different way. 

IMO if you've got a low savings rate and havent opened up that budget to the community to pick a part and help you out you're missing the largest benefit here.

as stated above saving 10k a year for each of 6 kids schooling .... in a case study that would be picked apart instantly.  i mean holy cow if you're investing that correctly you're saying your kids are gonna get 363k for college each! in today dollars.  assuming you did this from birth to 18.  thats 100% unnecessary.  maybe you're just doing it for 5 years and then your 50-60k gets dumped into your savings rate.  all that would come out in a case study. 
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Teachstache on June 15, 2017, 07:19:57 AM
Haven't posted in about a year, so thought I would. Spouse and I have 1 child, live in a relatively LCOL metro area in Nebraska. We earn $112k together in base salaries, I am a public school teacher & he is a community college employee. We save $63,800 of our base $112k gross income (56.9%) in a combination of maxed 457 (1), 403b (2), my state retirement pension (10% of my salary mandatory) & $3600 annually in a 529 plan for our 2 year old.

We are 35 (me) & 36 (him). Some features that allow this savings rate: part time free daycare from my mom, a low 30 year mortgage​ @ 3.6% on a 3 bedroom/3 bathroom home in biking distance of work & kid daycare (both for paid daycare & free Grandma daycare). We have 2 cars but no car payments & no student loans.

We have some additional side hustles of teaching evening college courses (me, netting around $5k per year) & crypto currency mining (spouse, depends on the market but anywhere from $7200-$12,000 per year). Extra income is put towards mortgage (my side hustle) or reinvested in crypto currency mining equipment (spouse's side hustle).

We are both naturally frugal, but we completely realize how fortunate we are to have family taking care of our 2 year old part time for free. If we had 2 kids in center based daycare totaling $1,600 per month, we'd never have achieved this savings rate.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: NESailor on June 15, 2017, 07:30:41 AM
Here (http://www.epi.org/resources/budget/) is a budget calculator for a "modest lifestyle" budget.  You can pick geographic area and family size. I used this as a tool for myself by subtracting the tax (as this will vary with income) and using the remaining amounts as a baseline "high" spending for myself no matter where I move for my employment.

I think the categories are off, but the total spending minus taxes is a good gauge regarding how Mustachian spending should look.  If I'm below by more than 10% I'm happy, if above I suck. Just one guys opinion.

It's an interesting tool but seems to fail in certain areas.  I live in rural NY and it's telling me I need around 77K for 2 adults and 2 kids.  Interested in what my buddy in Denver needs for the same size family - 71K... I don't think so ;)
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: SnidelyWhiplashStache on June 15, 2017, 09:52:19 AM
I know this forum is known for face punches and promoting high savings rates but I also think if someone is making choices and isn't complaining about working longer because of them then they're still fitting in here. To me the mustachian way is about owning the financial decisions you make and achieving your goals. Which for many of us is early retirement but even that is defined differently​ for  different people. Now if someone was saving 25% but complaining that they couldn't possibly cut back more and whining that they couldn't retire early I think face punches would be in order. But even MMM himself admits he inflates his spending on things like organic food, travel, etc. I think the bigger goal is to stop complaining and take ownership of your finances. Whether that means saving 90% or 10% makes no difference if you're happy and aware of the opportunity costs associated with your decisions.


Bingo.  This is what I was trying to say but you expressed it much more succinctly.

does not mean we still shouldnt be face punching people for their choices or lack of willingness to optimize and try to push them in the right direction.  the posters posting about these low savings rates have low posting rates ... which can be inferred to mean new.(it may not be but likely is)  with 8 posts its highly unlikely you've done a case study.  Its human nature to seek out support for your decisions.  But the real hard truth is its HIGHLY ... very HIGHLY unlikely those making over 100k(and closer to 200k from those combatting this) truly are optimizing things when only saving 25% of income.  most in that realm that are big spenders still are finding this forum much later in life and have hard fast ideas about how this all works and are less open minded to change their life style.  "i'm 55 and i loved my job"  maybe b/c you didnt realize there were other options b/c FIRE forums didnt exist when you were 25.  it also takes a certain level of ego to climb to these higher salaries typically.  and no one likes to look back and say shit i could have been doing this a different way. 

IMO if you've got a low savings rate and havent opened up that budget to the community to pick a part and help you out you're missing the largest benefit here.

as stated above saving 10k a year for each of 6 kids schooling .... in a case study that would be picked apart instantly.  i mean holy cow if you're investing that correctly you're saying your kids are gonna get 363k for college each! in today dollars.  assuming you did this from birth to 18.  thats 100% unnecessary.  maybe you're just doing it for 5 years and then your 50-60k gets dumped into your savings rate.  all that would come out in a case study.

Ah, the FNG syndrome.  New to this Forum and Site. True.  New to investing, budgeting, finances.  False.  You are correct, I haven't done a case study.  Who knows maybe I will at some point.  I certainly recognize there are points in my own budget that need adjusting for expense optimization, however as expressed earlier, I have made those choices based on current situation and desires. 

You want to face punch me for my savings rate of "only" 25% on $200k+ feel free.  But I am not trying to out-save anyone by increasing that to a percentage that doesn't fit in to my particular plan simply because some may view it as too little.  Just working toward financial security in my own little piece of the world. 

And stated again, at 55 with a new career change after leaving the job I loved for 21+ years, I am looking to FIRE next year.  I would not have changed those 21+ years even if MMM was around.  Isn't part of the advocacy of MMM to be able to have time to do what you really want to do.  Well, I spent 21+ years doing just that in a job I dreamed of doing as a little kid.  And was paid a decent salary for it with a pension to boot.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 15, 2017, 09:59:13 AM
I know this forum is known for face punches and promoting high savings rates but I also think if someone is making choices and isn't complaining about working longer because of them then they're still fitting in here. To me the mustachian way is about owning the financial decisions you make and achieving your goals. Which for many of us is early retirement but even that is defined differently​ for  different people. Now if someone was saving 25% but complaining that they couldn't possibly cut back more and whining that they couldn't retire early I think face punches would be in order. But even MMM himself admits he inflates his spending on things like organic food, travel, etc. I think the bigger goal is to stop complaining and take ownership of your finances. Whether that means saving 90% or 10% makes no difference if you're happy and aware of the opportunity costs associated with your decisions.


Bingo.  This is what I was trying to say but you expressed it much more succinctly.

does not mean we still shouldnt be face punching people for their choices or lack of willingness to optimize and try to push them in the right direction.  the posters posting about these low savings rates have low posting rates ... which can be inferred to mean new.(it may not be but likely is)  with 8 posts its highly unlikely you've done a case study.  Its human nature to seek out support for your decisions.  But the real hard truth is its HIGHLY ... very HIGHLY unlikely those making over 100k(and closer to 200k from those combatting this) truly are optimizing things when only saving 25% of income.  most in that realm that are big spenders still are finding this forum much later in life and have hard fast ideas about how this all works and are less open minded to change their life style.  "i'm 55 and i loved my job"  maybe b/c you didnt realize there were other options b/c FIRE forums didnt exist when you were 25.  it also takes a certain level of ego to climb to these higher salaries typically.  and no one likes to look back and say shit i could have been doing this a different way. 

IMO if you've got a low savings rate and havent opened up that budget to the community to pick a part and help you out you're missing the largest benefit here.

as stated above saving 10k a year for each of 6 kids schooling .... in a case study that would be picked apart instantly.  i mean holy cow if you're investing that correctly you're saying your kids are gonna get 363k for college each! in today dollars.  assuming you did this from birth to 18.  thats 100% unnecessary.  maybe you're just doing it for 5 years and then your 50-60k gets dumped into your savings rate.  all that would come out in a case study.

Ah, the FNG syndrome.  New to this Forum and Site. True.  New to investing, budgeting, finances.  False.  You are correct, I haven't done a case study.  Who knows maybe I will at some point.  I certainly recognize there are points in my own budget that need adjusting for expense optimization, however as expressed earlier, I have made those choices based on current situation and desires. 

You want to face punch me for my savings rate of "only" 25% on $200k+ feel free.  But I am not trying to out-save anyone by increasing that to a percentage that doesn't fit in to my particular plan simply because some may view it as too little.  Just working toward financial security in my own little piece of the world. 

And stated again, at 55 with a new career change after leaving the job I loved for 21+ years, I am looking to FIRE next year.  I would not have changed those 21+ years even if MMM was around.  Isn't part of the advocacy of MMM to be able to have time to do what you really want to do.  Well, I spent 21+ years doing just that in a job I dreamed of doing as a little kid.  And was paid a decent salary for it with a pension to boot.

yes this is atrocious around here.  to pull in that amount of money and say 25% of it its not "only" only doesnt belong in quotes with that level of income and 25% savings.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: SnidelyWhiplashStache on June 15, 2017, 10:12:12 AM
The only was placed in quotes because that is what you had said.  Hence the reason for quotes.  You obviously don't approve of my savings/income ratio and by assumption my expenses/budget/investments/NW, etc.  Whatever.  I'll still be FIRE'd in a year because I know my plan is true.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 15, 2017, 10:18:22 AM
The only was placed in quotes because that is what you had said.  Hence the reason for quotes.  You obviously don't approve of my savings/income ratio and by assumption my expenses/budget/investments/NW, etc.  Whatever.  I'll still be retired in a year because I know my plan is true.

fixed that for ya.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Lmoot on June 15, 2017, 10:34:15 AM
Oh boy. My heart sincerely breaks for those who seek to escape their current circumstances so much that they cannot even conceive of someone being fine with not being FIRE by their 30's.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 15, 2017, 10:35:04 AM
I know this forum is known for face punches and promoting high savings rates but I also think if someone is making choices and isn't complaining about working longer because of them then they're still fitting in here. To me the mustachian way is about owning the financial decisions you make and achieving your goals. Which for many of us is early retirement but even that is defined differently​ for  different people. Now if someone was saving 25% but complaining that they couldn't possibly cut back more and whining that they couldn't retire early I think face punches would be in order. But even MMM himself admits he inflates his spending on things like organic food, travel, etc. I think the bigger goal is to stop complaining and take ownership of your finances. Whether that means saving 90% or 10% makes no difference if you're happy and aware of the opportunity costs associated with your decisions.

Bingo.  This is what I was trying to say but you expressed it much more succinctly.

does not mean we still shouldnt be face punching people for their choices or lack of willingness to optimize and try to push them in the right direction.  the posters posting about these low savings rates have low posting rates ... which can be inferred to mean new.(it may not be but likely is)  with 8 posts its highly unlikely you've done a case study.  Its human nature to seek out support for your decisions.  But the real hard truth is its HIGHLY ... very HIGHLY unlikely those making over 100k(and closer to 200k from those combatting this) truly are optimizing things when only saving 25% of income.  most in that realm that are big spenders still are finding this forum much later in life and have hard fast ideas about how this all works and are less open minded to change their life style.  "i'm 55 and i loved my job"  maybe b/c you didnt realize there were other options b/c FIRE forums didnt exist when you were 25.  it also takes a certain level of ego to climb to these higher salaries typically.  and no one likes to look back and say shit i could have been doing this a different way. 

IMO if you've got a low savings rate and havent opened up that budget to the community to pick a part and help you out you're missing the largest benefit here.

as stated above saving 10k a year for each of 6 kids schooling .... in a case study that would be picked apart instantly.  i mean holy cow if you're investing that correctly you're saying your kids are gonna get 363k for college each! in today dollars.  assuming you did this from birth to 18.  thats 100% unnecessary.  maybe you're just doing it for 5 years and then your 50-60k gets dumped into your savings rate.  all that would come out in a case study.

Yea that's a fair point. I think perhaps I just empathize a bit more because although I have a savings rate of right around 65% I know if I did a case study with some of the frugal B.A.s on this site I'd be due for a million face punches. I could cut out various luxuries  and likely get closer to probably 70-75% savings but I make a choice to spend more on housing/food/transportation (still a 2 car family) than I absolutely have to because I like the quality of life I have. I do understand where you're coming from because a certain amount of bloat is just being wasteful of resources. However, in the example of savings for college expenses I have nothing to add because I personally don't have kids yet so I'm not an expert in how much should or shouldn't be saved so I can't speak to if that's excessive or not.

Hope I'm not coming across as rude - I'm enjoying the conversation and trying my best to understand both viewpoints!
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: SnidelyWhiplashStache on June 15, 2017, 10:42:13 AM
The only was placed in quotes because that is what you had said.  Hence the reason for quotes.  You obviously don't approve of my savings/income ratio and by assumption my expenses/budget/investments/NW, etc.  Whatever.  I'll still be retired in a year because I know my plan is true.

fixed that for ya.

My mom always said to make sure and wear clean underwear and never argue with crazy people.  Peace.  Out.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: StarBright on June 15, 2017, 10:42:29 AM
Here (http://www.epi.org/resources/budget/) is a budget calculator for a "modest lifestyle" budget.  You can pick geographic area and family size. I used this as a tool for myself by subtracting the tax (as this will vary with income) and using the remaining amounts as a baseline "high" spending for myself no matter where I move for my employment.

I think the categories are off, but the total spending minus taxes is a good gauge regarding how Mustachian spending should look.  If I'm below by more than 10% I'm happy, if above I suck. Just one guys opinion.

It's an interesting tool but seems to fail in certain areas.  I live in rural NY and it's telling me I need around 77K for 2 adults and 2 kids.  Interested in what my buddy in Denver needs for the same size family - 71K... I don't think so ;)

I think some metro areas are off. Rather than going by my actual zipcode (a rather nice college town)  it assigned me to the nearest large city 30 minutes away, which is a depressed Rustbelt city. Both the childcare and housing numbers were way too low.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on June 15, 2017, 11:05:25 AM
While I don't save for my child's post-secondary*, if I did I would still certainly include such numbers in my savings rate.

I don't think it's only "saving" if it will be used for FIRE. Saving is saving, regardless of what we use a stash for ultimately. And if one or more of a family's kids chooses not to go to college, the money is available for whatever else anyway.

*I actually do max out a kid college account, but only for the government top-up of 20%+. If for some bizarre reason he really, really, really needs it for college, we'll use it that way. Otherwise we'll give back the portion of initial grants required, and roll the results into general life uses.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 15, 2017, 11:17:34 AM
The only was placed in quotes because that is what you had said.  Hence the reason for quotes.  You obviously don't approve of my savings/income ratio and by assumption my expenses/budget/investments/NW, etc.  Whatever.  I'll still be retired in a year because I know my plan is true.

fixed that for ya.

My mom always said to make sure and wear clean underwear and never argue with crazy people.  Peace.  Out.

so i'm crazy b/c saving 25% of your 200k income on a fire forum is face punch worthy and b/c i said you're basically looking at a traditional retirement due to your pension and being within 4.5 years of the age of normal retirement.

must be a lot of wacko's around this forum then. 
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: index on June 15, 2017, 12:43:53 PM
We in the group making over 100k and saving under 50%. Here is the cliff notes version for our chosen path:

We are saving 35% on a pretax income of 150k.

Tax and HDHP Health Insurance - 27.7k
Fixed expenses are 30k -  (mortgage, tax, insurance, rental property, cable, telephone, gym, and utilities)
Variable expenses are 32k (Food, travel, clothing, gas, auto maintenance, pets, etc...)
Home renovation expenses 8k

Savings 52k

We have everything broken up in a detailed spreadsheet that is updated once a month. The crazy thing is, we could substantially cut down on our quality of life by not taking any vacations (7k), no going out to dinner (4k), canceling gym memberships (2k), stop drinking good wine (2k), and finish renovating the house  (8k) and save an additional 23k per year and put us at a 50% SR. This would cut the amount of time to FI from 16 years 10 months, to 13 years 6 months. 

We are 29 and 30. I have no plans to quit working and enjoy my job. My wife will quite her corporate job and pursue her own passions in another 3-4 years. If I work an extra 3 years and 4 months I get:

14 - Trips to Europe
14 - Trips to Central or South America
730 - Meals out
1550 - Bottles of good wine
14  years of Yoga + Climbing gym memberships
and a very nice fully renovated house 2 miles from our workplace.


Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: wenchsenior on June 15, 2017, 01:03:53 PM
The only was placed in quotes because that is what you had said.  Hence the reason for quotes.  You obviously don't approve of my savings/income ratio and by assumption my expenses/budget/investments/NW, etc.  Whatever.  I'll still be retired in a year because I know my plan is true.

fixed that for ya.

My mom always said to make sure and wear clean underwear and never argue with crazy people.  Peace.  Out.

so i'm crazy b/c saving 25% of your 200k income on a fire forum is face punch worthy and b/c i said you're basically looking at a traditional retirement due to your pension and being within 4.5 years of the age of normal retirement.

must be a lot of wacko's around this forum then.

Most of the hardcore mustachians on this forum don't act like such smug, obnoxious board-police as you are in this thread. Please try to chill out.  IMO, we should encourage every level of the Mustachian mindset, and your attitude will just put people off. If people want specific critiques of their plans and lifestyles, presumably they will ask. 
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Sweeney on June 15, 2017, 01:07:44 PM
My family is also in the over $100k saving under 50% camp. We are older parents who have older parents ourselves. I've got one kid in day care, one in high school, and one going off to college. In addition to that our older parents health are starting to fail. My family is mostly overseas and my wife's family is more than 1000 miles away. A lot of random expenses seem to come up that make it very hard to get above 50% savings. I think we are doing pretty well, but I can't see getting above 50% savings any time soon.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 15, 2017, 01:28:29 PM
The only was placed in quotes because that is what you had said.  Hence the reason for quotes.  You obviously don't approve of my savings/income ratio and by assumption my expenses/budget/investments/NW, etc.  Whatever.  I'll still be retired in a year because I know my plan is true.

fixed that for ya.

My mom always said to make sure and wear clean underwear and never argue with crazy people.  Peace.  Out.

so i'm crazy b/c saving 25% of your 200k income on a fire forum is face punch worthy and b/c i said you're basically looking at a traditional retirement due to your pension and being within 4.5 years of the age of normal retirement.

must be a lot of wacko's around this forum then.

Most of the hardcore mustachians on this forum don't act like such smug, obnoxious board-police as you are in this thread. Please try to chill out.  IMO, we should encourage every level of the Mustachian mindset, and your attitude will just put people off. If people want specific critiques of their plans and lifestyles, presumably they will ask.

i said i was surprised to see all the 100k plus people not primarily in the 50% plus range

then there started to become a group of people banding together to talk about how hard it is to save 50% on 200k ... something that has no place in this forum IMO.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 15, 2017, 01:30:19 PM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.
They just have no time to reply because fire is approaching so fast ;)

With 100k gross income i would save about 70% net easily. I would fire in 3 years or so.
Sadly i am way more down (60k € gross) but currently feed a family of four, so still doing great in my opinion.

I always have to pipe up when I see comments that are "If I made XYZ, I could save ABC"... the truth is many people who make a lot of money live in HCOLA. I moved to a HCOLA and increased my salary by over 50k, but I don't get an extra 50k worth of savings because of the extra expenses associated along with living in that area to make that salary.  My savings 'rate' is about the same, I just make more. So it ends up being a win overall, but it's not like a smoking gun.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 15, 2017, 01:34:52 PM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.
They just have no time to reply because fire is approaching so fast ;)

With 100k gross income i would save about 70% net easily. I would fire in 3 years or so.
Sadly i am way more down (60k € gross) but currently feed a family of four, so still doing great in my opinion.

I always have to pipe up when I see comments that are "If I made XYZ, I could save ABC"... the truth is many people who make a lot of money live in HCOLA. I moved to a HCOLA and increased my salary by over 50k, but I don't get an extra 50k worth of savings because of the extra expenses associated along with living in that area to make that salary.  My savings 'rate' is about the same, I just make more. So it ends up being a win overall, but it's not like a smoking gun.

we're around 160k-170k gross income and invest around 110k+ annually -  always trying to squeeze more out. variance is due to my bonus structure at work.  more bonus more money into savings. if you were to count house equity gain that savings goes up more but its not something i count.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 15, 2017, 01:34:55 PM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.

Interesting. I put in Seattle and 2 adults one child and it told us we only needed 1100/month for housing. A 2 bedroom bare bones apartment is 1800/month and a fixer-upper house is 750k. Not sure how accurate this data is.

Just to answer the OP, we are way above 100k, right around 50-55% so I answered 50%.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 15, 2017, 01:40:37 PM




then there started to become a group of people banding together to talk about how hard it is to save 50% on 200k ... something that has no place in this forum IMO.

Meh. Places where you earn 200k, day care for an infant costs $2500/month. Yes, 200k is a shit ton of money. I've lived in LCOLA and VHCOLA and money is money, but expenses rise with the average salary. I think people in rural Oklahoma and the like really can't fathom the expenses in HCOLA unless they've personally done it. I had a VERY nice house in the midwest for $400k, but you literally can NOT buy a house in Seattle for $400 k. Condemed lots costs more than 400k. Easy come easy go.

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 15, 2017, 01:50:30 PM




then there started to become a group of people banding together to talk about how hard it is to save 50% on 200k ... something that has no place in this forum IMO.

Meh. Places where you earn 200k, day care for an infant costs $2500/month. Yes, 200k is a shit ton of money. I've lived in LCOLA and VHCOLA and money is money, but expenses rise with the average salary. I think people in rural Oklahoma and the like really can't fathom the expenses in HCOLA unless they've personally done it. I had a VERY nice house in the midwest for $400k, but you literally can NOT buy a house in Seattle for $400 k. Condemed lots costs more than 400k. Easy come easy go.

it was family income and you can earn 200k household in Missouri.  i practically do that ... and we're talking 55 year olds stating what they make.  if i worked til 55 i'd be pulling over 300k in missouri in today dollars.

shit if i worked til 55 my SWR would be over 550k a year that would just be nuts.  should we buy another lake house this year hunny ... i dunno... we already have 7
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: SnidelyWhiplashStache on June 15, 2017, 01:51:32 PM




then there started to become a group of people banding together to talk about how hard it is to save 50% on 200k ... something that has no place in this forum IMO.

Meh. Places where you earn 200k, day care for an infant costs $2500/month. Yes, 200k is a shit ton of money. I've lived in LCOLA and VHCOLA and money is money, but expenses rise with the average salary. I think people in rural Oklahoma and the like really can't fathom the expenses in HCOLA unless they've personally done it. I had a VERY nice house in the midwest for $400k, but you literally can NOT buy a house in Seattle for $400 k. Condemed lots costs more than 400k. Easy come easy go.

Not to mention the additional and continued costs associated with kids.  I have three and have lived in an HCOL area for most of my life.  My wife and I made the choice to put our three kids through college so they were able to obtain degrees with no debt.  Now two have gone on to graduate school and we have helped out with those, including living expenses, however they have each taken loans to cover some of that cost. 

Choices we all make and things we do for our kids.

Congrats on the 50% savings rate.  We are not there and probably never will be which causes some on this forum to chastize for lack of true MMM adherence.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: dropspindl on June 15, 2017, 01:52:22 PM

Meh. Places where you earn 200k, day care for an infant costs $2500/month.



Don't think so. Quick Google search shows that average cost of infant daycare in NYC (where I live)  is $1354/mo.

This isn't the forum to talk about how hard it is to save with six figure incomes. That's what the rest of the internet is for. I would be sad if this forum filled up with people discussing their six figure lifestyle, because this is where I go to get AWAY from that mindset.

 I've been a member of other communities where people saying "there's no wrong way to do <x>" eventually led to <x> being a meaningless category.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 15, 2017, 01:57:05 PM

Meh. Places where you earn 200k, day care for an infant costs $2500/month.



Don't think so. Quick Google search shows that average cost of infant daycare in NYC (where I live)  is $1354/mo.

This isn't the forum to talk about how hard it is to save with six figure incomes. That's what the rest of the internet is for. I would be sad if this forum filled up with people discussing their six figure lifestyle, because this is where I go to get AWAY from that mindset.

 I've been a member of other communities where people saying "there's no wrong way to do <x>" eventually led to <x> being a meaningless category.

i prefer to live a 6 figure lifestyle on much less ... so it annoys me to almost no end when people say i just cant do it.  yes you can optimize.

now if you've already completely inflated your lifestyle worked til 55 and have a pension that covers it ... who really cares.  but then whats this forum doing for you?
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: talltexan on June 15, 2017, 02:11:35 PM
In a LCOL, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people have housing costs BELOW their child care costs. So then optimize the higher expense.

In a HCOL, your housing cost is probably still greater. So optimize that.

But people in each world would probably think that the other was unfamiliar.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: caracarn on June 15, 2017, 02:41:04 PM
For the older kids we have a car for them to use to get to work as biking back from McDonald's for an hour at 2 AM when they close the store versus getting home in 10 minutes is probably again not going to earn me any points from child services. 

Where do you live that kids (ages 13-17?) can work until 2 AM?
Ohio.  They need a form filled out from employer each week that shows they are driving back from work if it is after midnight (until 1 year after license obtained) or 1 AM (until 18).
Wow, it must've changed a lot. When I worked in OH as a minor (2000-2005) and supervised minors (2005-06), minors were not allowed to 1) use scissors or box cutters on the job or 2) work later than 10PM.

It was extremely strict, we got fined $10K for every violation of a minor working after 10PM (or 9PM when under 16) - large grocery store so our fines were high. Also very strict break rules and alcohol handling rules, thanks to a history of minor labor abuse in Ohio's agricultural and factory history. I always thought it was a bit too restrictive.
This is the ENTIRE section of Ohio Minor Labor Laws chapter 4109:
RESTRICTIONS ON WORKING HOURS FOR MINORS 16 and 17 YEARS OF AGE
No person 16 or 17 who is required to attend school shall be employed:
1. Before 7 a.m. on any day that school is in session or 6 a.m. if the person was not employed after 8 p.m. the previous night
2. After 11 p.m. on any night preceding a day that school is in session.


As you can see, when school is not in session, virtually no restrictions at all.  They can work them 60 hours a week, 12 hours a day any time of day or whatever does not break regular labor laws.
And even with school in session Friday and Saturday night is again, wide open.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: StarBright on June 15, 2017, 02:47:37 PM

Meh. Places where you earn 200k, day care for an infant costs $2500/month.



Don't think so. Quick Google search shows that average cost of infant daycare in NYC (where I live)  is $1354/mo.


Whoa! That is about what I paid down south 5 years ago and only a couple hundred more than our current center in the midwest charges. If that is quality childcare then that is a STEAL!
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: caracarn on June 15, 2017, 03:01:19 PM

as stated above saving 10k a year for each of 6 kids schooling .... in a case study that would be picked apart instantly.  i mean holy cow if you're investing that correctly you're saying your kids are gonna get 363k for college each! in today dollars.  assuming you did this from birth to 18.  thats 100% unnecessary.  maybe you're just doing it for 5 years and then your 50-60k gets dumped into your savings rate.  all that would come out in a case study.

Since this is directed at my response, I'll add some color.  Yes, this is for a 5 year period as we are a remarried couple where my three kids had a bit of a 529 that then had stopped contributions  because after divorce and no liquid cash for a while it was tough, and her three who have 0 saved.  All the kids are above in middle school through college already, so I do not have 20 years to save while they grow up.  Also not sure if you are aware, but all they can borrow is $$31K in Stafford Loans, which for even a state school is not even half of what they need (our oldest is at Kent State now and they will be $80K over the 4 years).  How would you like a child to cover that $55K gap?  I'm not dumb enough to co-sign loans for them, which is the ONLY way to get more than the $31K if you get nothing from school for aid.  At our income you get a happy donut from them.  Sorry if I sound offended, because yes, the judgmental tone without details is a little too direct of a face punch.  I think we're doing pretty darn well to be able to save $50K for the kids, and my point of sharing that was to show that it could obviously be added to the $46K we already are saving bringing the total to almost $100K saved IF I was putting it to FIRE out of $200K NET not GROSS.  So actual take home last year was around $172K and we could have saved $100K if I decided to basically tell my kids "we're not helping you at all".  That turns into a 58% savings rate but because I made, I guess what you are deeming a terrible choice to help my kids, it would be picked apart instantly in a case study.  I didn't make college stupidly expensive and make it impossible for a kid to go if you make any amount of money without a parent putting their financial well being on the line.  Are you telling me that I'd really get a better case study if I said, "I'm saving 60% of my income but I'm going to cosign on over $300K of loans to get my six kids through basic state schools and go into FIRE with the possibility of having to pay that debt myself if my kids can't/don't want to swing it?"  Makes zero sense to me.

Going to one other comment here.  I'm not whining that I could not make different choices and save more.  I posted by rate, and then only elaborated because someone commented that those of us over $100K were not offering any comments and people wondered why.  Then it turned into this.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: caracarn on June 15, 2017, 03:21:33 PM

Meh. Places where you earn 200k, day care for an infant costs $2500/month.



Don't think so. Quick Google search shows that average cost of infant daycare in NYC (where I live)  is $1354/mo.

This isn't the forum to talk about how hard it is to save with six figure incomes. That's what the rest of the internet is for. I would be sad if this forum filled up with people discussing their six figure lifestyle, because this is where I go to get AWAY from that mindset.

 I've been a member of other communities where people saying "there's no wrong way to do <x>" eventually led to <x> being a meaningless category.

i prefer to live a 6 figure lifestyle on much less ... so it annoys me to almost no end when people say i just cant do it.  yes you can optimize.

now if you've already completely inflated your lifestyle worked til 55 and have a pension that covers it ... who really cares.  but then whats this forum doing for you?
The point I would suggest you mix from your soapbox is your expectation of life experience is not what everyone's life is like. 

I was 35 with $300K saved.  Then shit happened and I got divorced and do to concessions and Snidely says, to get my kids away from their mom who literally yelled in their face of my three year old son for the year before we got divorced, "I wish I never had you!" I ended up with zero equity, and only $75K left of that $300K because I parted with the rest to get my kids out of that toxic environment.  Could I have "optimized" that decision?  Probably.  Are you really going to sit here and argue that point?

Now 7 years later (3 of which I still had to pay her $1,200/month in alimony and have the kids 80% of the time) and she has not paid one dime towards any of their expenses, I have gotten that $75K up to $289K in retirement funds and $85K in taxable investments and added three wonderful kids who have a deadbeat for a dad on the other side to my family along with my wonderful wife.  I've decided to help those kids and mine to be able to attend college, and I simply share some basic details on an internet forum that I have felt  for the last year I have been here was very open and accommodating and get attacked by the MMM gestapo as being a deadbeat optimizer.  We do not have 7 vacation homes.  We have what we need to get by and are doing a damn good job optimizing given those shitty circumstances thank you very much.  Pontificating about how awesome your income would be had you stayed working is really smug considering you have no idea if that is the case.  Are you immune to layoffs and downsizings?  Some of us have not had the problem free life you seem to have had where wealth was not lost and savings were next to nothing and made decisions to prioritize out kids over some lifestyle that we agree with and are trying hard to work within, but then get judged for. 
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: FrogStash on June 15, 2017, 03:21:46 PM
$110K/65.7% savings rate this year

caveat 1: interior remodeling work and wedding this year, so lower than usual rate

caveat 2: just got major promotion and raise on May 1.  In past, $$ significantly lower and savings rate a bit lower too

Did you save for the wedding/remodel? If so, then I would personally consider that as part of the savings rate. I don't know if, or how, the intention of the poll is to account for what you spend those savings on.

If you spend your savings, then it isn't saving any more.  It is spending.  I think the question clearly meant saving for retirement.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Mmm_Donuts on June 15, 2017, 03:32:04 PM
...but then whats this forum doing for you?

This is fortunately not for you to decide. It may be hard for you to fathom, but people can come and go on this forum as they please. If they find it useful and interesting, then they stay! If not, then they go.

We all are here for different reasons. Please, stop trying to force your own reasons onto other people.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Classical_Liberal on June 15, 2017, 03:47:12 PM
i said i was surprised to see all the 100k plus people not primarily in the 50% plus range

then there started to become a group of people banding together to talk about how hard it is to save 50% on 200k ... something that has no place in this forum IMO.

I'm with boarder in this discussion.  The blow-back from the original comment is further evidence this forum is deteriorating from the original MMM message.  We've gone from limited, intelligent, efficient consumption (less than average) to "I'm a one-percenter, but I live like a two-percenter" and that's really the best I can do, [insert further whine and/or hurt feeling comment here].

Much like the blog, the earlier threads in this forum are more helpful than the later, particularly when it comes to the core reduced consumption discussions. That's not to say this still isn't a good place to come and learn if one is interested in the core message to change lifestyle.  We are all a work in progress, but to claim a 25% SR with a 1%er income is Mustachian?  Sorry... nope!
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Scortius on June 15, 2017, 04:19:55 PM
Well, this got contentious in a hurry, but considering the original purpose of the thread perhaps it's not so surprising.

I think there is a fairly large disconnect here between what people aspire to and how we act.  We have to remember that this is MMM, not bogleheads or another financial site.  I mean, even boarder's spending is ridiculously extravagant by MMM standards.  We're at a site where the main message is that you can lead a fulfilling life free of want for around $25k/year (with no mortgage or rent).  Thus, the idea that you could pull in $200k/yr and spend more than half of it is somewhat crazy and does go against the message here, for whatever that is worth.

My family brings in about $180k/yr combined, and I don't think we're that close to saving half (probably around 35% at this point).  I think it's entirely face-punch worthy and I am certainly open to criticism.  Yes, it's different if you're living in a HCOL city with kids, but even then you don't have to take offense to the main message, you just have to ignore boarder and realize that this metric just doesn't apply to you very well.   Now, if you're pulling 200k in a LCOL city and you're not managing to put away half of your post-tax income... I think it's fair to bring up the quote, "so... what do you say you do here?"

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 15, 2017, 04:21:22 PM

Meh. Places where you earn 200k, day care for an infant costs $2500/month.



Don't think so. Quick Google search shows that average cost of infant daycare in NYC (where I live)  is $1354/mo.

This isn't the forum to talk about how hard it is to save with six figure incomes. That's what the rest of the internet is for. I would be sad if this forum filled up with people discussing their six figure lifestyle, because this is where I go to get AWAY from that mindset.

 I've been a member of other communities where people saying "there's no wrong way to do <x>" eventually led to <x> being a meaningless category.

i prefer to live a 6 figure lifestyle on much less ... so it annoys me to almost no end when people say i just cant do it.  yes you can optimize.

now if you've already completely inflated your lifestyle worked til 55 and have a pension that covers it ... who really cares.  but then whats this forum doing for you?
The point I would suggest you mix from your soapbox is your expectation of life experience is not what everyone's life is like. 

I was 35 with $300K saved.  Then shit happened and I got divorced and do to concessions and Snidely says, to get my kids away from their mom who literally yelled in their face of my three year old son for the year before we got divorced, "I wish I never had you!" I ended up with zero equity, and only $75K left of that $300K because I parted with the rest to get my kids out of that toxic environment.  Could I have "optimized" that decision?  Probably.  Are you really going to sit here and argue that point?

Now 7 years later (3 of which I still had to pay her $1,200/month in alimony and have the kids 80% of the time) and she has not paid one dime towards any of their expenses, I have gotten that $75K up to $289K in retirement funds and $85K in taxable investments and added three wonderful kids who have a deadbeat for a dad on the other side to my family along with my wonderful wife.  I've decided to help those kids and mine to be able to attend college, and I simply share some basic details on an internet forum that I have felt  for the last year I have been here was very open and accommodating and get attacked by the MMM gestapo as being a deadbeat optimizer.  We do not have 7 vacation homes.  We have what we need to get by and are doing a damn good job optimizing given those shitty circumstances thank you very much.  Pontificating about how awesome your income would be had you stayed working is really smug considering you have no idea if that is the case.  Are you immune to layoffs and downsizings?  Some of us have not had the problem free life you seem to have had where wealth was not lost and savings were next to nothing and made decisions to prioritize out kids over some lifestyle that we agree with and are trying hard to work within, but then get judged for.

Again you're making a laundry list of reasons why you can't, how about throw down a case study and learn how you can. I just have a fundamental problem with the can't do attitude.

Maybe we'll all come to the same conclusion you have... That it can't be done but I'd wager that's highly unlikely

If you'd responded with I'm new I'm learning I'd like some help. That's where this forum can benefit you.  Your response was I can't do it to which I lose what are you trying to gain from this site then.

Can't can't can't.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: EconDiva on June 15, 2017, 04:24:29 PM
What is the minimum SR needed to be a true Mustachian?
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 15, 2017, 04:31:09 PM
What is the minimum SR needed to be a true Mustachian?

I'd say it has much more to do with spending that saving. And I'd put it around 40k with housing for a family of 4. Even if doubled for high col area it's only 80k

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: tarheeldan on June 15, 2017, 04:32:36 PM
I'm with boarder in this discussion.  The blow-back from the original comment is further evidence this forum is deteriorating from the original MMM message. 

There's no question. A victim of its own popularity. I've been thinking it'd be nice to have a "hardcore" section, but if things follow the "diluted by mainstream thinking" pattern, it'll only be a stopgap. Oh well, it was cool while it lasted.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Classical_Liberal on June 15, 2017, 04:41:08 PM
What is the minimum SR needed to be a true Mustachian?

I'd say it has much more to do with spending that saving. And I'd put it around 40k with housing for a family of 4.

+1, in that it's about total consumption (spending).  Which is why I placed that calculator up-thread earlier, an attempt to compare apple to orange situations.  I realize it inst a perfect tool, if anyone has better one feel free to link it.  Here  (http://livingwage.mit.edu/) is a different "living wage" calculator. 

The general point is that if an average household can "make it" on these comparatively low numbers, someone from this forum should be able to live very well on the same amount.  That's the whole point, to learn how.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 15, 2017, 04:43:14 PM

Meh. Places where you earn 200k, day care for an infant costs $2500/month.



Don't think so. Quick Google search shows that average cost of infant daycare in NYC (where I live)  is $1354/mo.

This isn't the forum to talk about how hard it is to save with six figure incomes. That's what the rest of the internet is for. I would be sad if this forum filled up with people discussing their six figure lifestyle, because this is where I go to get AWAY from that mindset.

 I've been a member of other communities where people saying "there's no wrong way to do <x>" eventually led to <x> being a meaningless category.

A six figure lifestyle can still be a mustachian one.

I have a child in day care in a HCOLA, I think that makes my post on how much daycare ACTUALLY costs a lot more valid than your random internet browser search.

But just to show you I can 'google' too:

The average cost for full time care in NYC ranges from $1,300-$2,500/month. Centers typically charge more for younger children because they require more care and attention (diaper changes, feeding help, etc.). Costs for infant and toddler care averages $1,800/month in NYC.
Child Care Centers - NYU
https://www.nyu.edu/employees/life...care/child-care/...children/child-care-centers.html

At Bright Horizons in Redmond, for instance, infant care costs about $2,200 per month, Kidspace in Ballard charges $2,150 per month, and the Seattle Infant Development Center and Preschool in central Seattle charges $2,000 per month.Sep 25, 2014
King County's daycare dilemma - Crosscut
crosscut.com/2014/09/parents-seek-alternatives-tough-seattle-childcare/


In home care costs less. I send my daughter to a daycare center. It's almost $2500 for an infant. The data for Seattle is 3 years old.

You can say whatever you want about my spending or earning. It's just not as simple as envisioning an enormous paycheck and making it so. It costs a lot to make a lot in SOME areas of the US. THAT is my point. Everyone who thinks they'd spend less on housing because they'd find the non existent 500k 2 bedroom house is laughable because there ARE NONE.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 15, 2017, 04:47:13 PM
Infant development center.

Apparently the more sophisticated words you put in your name the more you can charge people.

I'm going to start the infant cranium enlargement school for kids who can't read good and want to do other things good too
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 15, 2017, 04:51:01 PM
Infant development center.

Apparently the more sophisticated words you put in your name the more you can charge people.

I'm going to start the infant cranium enlargement school for kids who can't read good and want to do other things good too

Really? Now you're going to go there? I take my kid to a day care center, and that's what I called it. You are really unbelievable.  At least you can admit you are wrong.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Lmoot on June 15, 2017, 04:55:08 PM
$110K/65.7% savings rate this year

caveat 1: interior remodeling work and wedding this year, so lower than usual rate

caveat 2: just got major promotion and raise on May 1.  In past, $$ significantly lower and savings rate a bit lower too

Did you save for the wedding/remodel? If so, then I would personally consider that as part of the savings rate. I don't know if, or how, the intention of the poll is to account for what you spend those savings on.

If you spend your savings, then it isn't saving any more.  It is spending.  I think the question clearly meant saving for retirement.

 I don't think it was very clear that it was for retirement savings. It would've said retirement savings, and apparently a whole bunch of other people missed the message as they included non-retirement savings. It is important to know your savings rate, or capability, whether or not it's going towards retirement or other things. Because you can always change your mind what you're saving for later, all the way up until the second before you spend it.

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 15, 2017, 04:57:01 PM
Infant development center.

Apparently the more sophisticated words you put in your name the more you can charge people.

I'm going to start the infant cranium enlargement school for kids who can't read good and want to do other things good too

Really? Now you're going to go there? I take my kid to a day care center, and that's what I called it. You are really unbelievable.  At least you can admit you are wrong.

I'm not the one who posted about the cost of childcare. Much too touchy a subject for people. But since you asked. I went thru in home as did my brother I see no value in overpriced childcare centers for infants.

My comment was meant with sarcasm which I thought would have been understood by the Zoolander reference
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 15, 2017, 05:01:54 PM
$110K/65.7% savings rate this year

caveat 1: interior remodeling work and wedding this year, so lower than usual rate

caveat 2: just got major promotion and raise on May 1.  In past, $$ significantly lower and savings rate a bit lower too

Did you save for the wedding/remodel? If so, then I would personally consider that as part of the savings rate. I don't know if, or how, the intention of the poll is to account for what you spend those savings on.

If you spend your savings, then it isn't saving any more.  It is spending.  I think the question clearly meant saving for retirement.

 I don't think it was very clear that it was for retirement savings. It would've said retirement savings, and apparently a whole bunch of other people missed the message as they included non-retirement savings. It is important to know your savings rate, or capability, whether or not it's going towards retirement or other things. Because you can always change your mind what you're saving for later, all the way up until the second before you spend it.

I'd agree just bc you're putting money away now if it's earmarked to be spent later it is most certainly not savings. Unless that earmark is for when in retired.

I put a dollar in my bank today to buy a candy bar tomorrow. Does not increase my savings rate by a dollar.

Same way putting 1k in the bank today for my wedding next summer doesn't mean I increased my savings by 1k
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: dropspindl on June 15, 2017, 05:05:36 PM


I have a child in day care in a HCOLA, I think that makes my post on how much daycare ACTUALLY costs a lot more valid than your random internet browser search.

But just to show you I can 'google' too:

The average cost for full time care in NYC ranges from $1,300-$2,500/month. Centers typically charge more for younger children because they require more care and attention (diaper changes, feeding help, etc.). Costs for infant and toddler care averages $1,800/month in NYC.
Child Care Centers - NYU
https://www.nyu.edu/employees/life...care/child-care/...children/child-care-centers.html


I'm a Manhattan nanny, so I'm fully aware of how much childcare CAN cost, if you let it. (My entire salary!)

Note, the source I found said $1354 average. (and I didn't cherry pick. I just used the first source)
The source you picked said $1800/mo average

Your original claim was $2500. You realize that even if you use your own source that's still too much.

When they (the source YOU quoted) say the NYC childcare cost RANGES from $1300-$2500, no Mustachian would budget for the HIGHEST amount in the range.

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: tarheeldan on June 15, 2017, 05:24:28 PM
Oh goodie, dogma arguments.

Sometimes I wonder if Pete ever imagined a future reality where he became the messiah of a pedantic juggernaught. Suspect not. He probably just though it would be cool to start a blog. Poor bastard.

Yeah. The blog is really an attack on consumerism and waste (spending) and he used the word cult lol:
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/29/mr-money-mustache-the-frugal-guru

Dogma? You mean the thing we have in common that defines the blog and forum. That's the whole point.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Lmoot on June 15, 2017, 05:52:21 PM
$110K/65.7% savings rate this year

caveat 1: interior remodeling work and wedding this year, so lower than usual rate

caveat 2: just got major promotion and raise on May 1.  In past, $$ significantly lower and savings rate a bit lower too

Did you save for the wedding/remodel? If so, then I would personally consider that as part of the savings rate. I don't know if, or how, the intention of the poll is to account for what you spend those savings on.

If you spend your savings, then it isn't saving any more.  It is spending.  I think the question clearly meant saving for retirement.

 I don't think it was very clear that it was for retirement savings. It would've said retirement savings, and apparently a whole bunch of other people missed the message as they included non-retirement savings. It is important to know your savings rate, or capability, whether or not it's going towards retirement or other things. Because you can always change your mind what you're saving for later, all the way up until the second before you spend it.

I'd agree just bc you're putting money away now if it's earmarked to be spent later it is most certainly not savings. Unless that earmark is for when in retired.

I put a dollar in my bank today to buy a candy bar tomorrow. Does not increase my savings rate by a dollar.

Same way putting 1k in the bank today for my wedding next summer doesn't mean I increased my savings by 1k

What say you then about buying assets? Or saving to invest in assets (remodel), or invest in a business.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 15, 2017, 06:06:33 PM
$110K/65.7% savings rate this year

caveat 1: interior remodeling work and wedding this year, so lower than usual rate

caveat 2: just got major promotion and raise on May 1.  In past, $$ significantly lower and savings rate a bit lower too

Did you save for the wedding/remodel? If so, then I would personally consider that as part of the savings rate. I don't know if, or how, the intention of the poll is to account for what you spend those savings on.

If you spend your savings, then it isn't saving any more.  It is spending.  I think the question clearly meant saving for retirement.

 I don't think it was very clear that it was for retirement savings. It would've said retirement savings, and apparently a whole bunch of other people missed the message as they included non-retirement savings. It is important to know your savings rate, or capability, whether or not it's going towards retirement or other things. Because you can always change your mind what you're saving for later, all the way up until the second before you spend it.

I'd agree just bc you're putting money away now if it's earmarked to be spent later it is most certainly not savings. Unless that earmark is for when in retired.

I put a dollar in my bank today to buy a candy bar tomorrow. Does not increase my savings rate by a dollar.

Same way putting 1k in the bank today for my wedding next summer doesn't mean I increased my savings by 1k

What say you then about buying assets? Or saving to invest in assets (remodel), or invest in a business.

Remodeling isn't at asset unless you're flipping the house for profit. Investing with the goal of making more money to fire would be savings rate.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: ixtap on June 15, 2017, 06:28:49 PM
$110K/65.7% savings rate this year

caveat 1: interior remodeling work and wedding this year, so lower than usual rate

caveat 2: just got major promotion and raise on May 1.  In past, $$ significantly lower and savings rate a bit lower too

Did you save for the wedding/remodel? If so, then I would personally consider that as part of the savings rate. I don't know if, or how, the intention of the poll is to account for what you spend those savings on.

If you spend your savings, then it isn't saving any more.  It is spending.  I think the question clearly meant saving for retirement.

 I don't think it was very clear that it was for retirement savings. It would've said retirement savings, and apparently a whole bunch of other people missed the message as they included non-retirement savings. It is important to know your savings rate, or capability, whether or not it's going towards retirement or other things. Because you can always change your mind what you're saving for later, all the way up until the second before you spend it.

I'd agree just bc you're putting money away now if it's earmarked to be spent later it is most certainly not savings. Unless that earmark is for when in retired.

I put a dollar in my bank today to buy a candy bar tomorrow. Does not increase my savings rate by a dollar.

Same way putting 1k in the bank today for my wedding next summer doesn't mean I increased my savings by 1k

Won't it earn interest? Don't you have it available to use for some other purpose, if you so choose?  Won't it be considered an asset if you need the leverage? Didn't you forgo some other want now?
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Mariposa on June 15, 2017, 07:20:14 PM
What is the minimum SR needed to be a true Mustachian?

I'd say it has much more to do with spending that saving. And I'd put it around 40k with housing for a family of 4. Even if doubled for high col area it's only 80k

Here's what 220k gross in a HCOLA looks like:
50k taxes
40k housing (2bd/2ba apt)
15k daycare (this is in-home; would be 25k at a daycare center)
15k support for a relative (non-negotiable for us)
70k savings
30k everything else

Our 30k spend after fixed costs isn't too far off from MMM family's 25k. With both of us working, we do pay for some conveniences, but it's worth it to us with a crazy toddler.

Savings rate: 70k/170k(net) = 41%, or 70k/220k(gross) = 32%




Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: BTDretire on June 15, 2017, 07:26:28 PM
The only was placed in quotes because that is what you had said.  Hence the reason for quotes.  You obviously don't approve of my savings/income ratio and by assumption my expenses/budget/investments/NW, etc.  Whatever.  I'll still be retired in a year because I know my plan is true.

fixed that for ya.

My mom always said to make sure and wear clean underwear and never argue with crazy people.  Peace.  Out.

so i'm crazy b/c saving 25% of your 200k income on a fire forum is face punch worthy and b/c i said you're basically looking at a traditional retirement due to your pension and being within 4.5 years of the age of normal retirement.

must be a lot of wacko's around this forum then.

 I resemble that remark!
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: index on June 15, 2017, 08:36:28 PM
Remodeling isn't at asset unless you're flipping the house for profit. Investing with the goal of making more money to fire would be savings rate.
I agree with you to an extent and actually had a problem with MMM not counting his 30k renovation into his expenses in his 2016 report. I started thinking though, if you do a renovation then get an appraisal and HELOC isn't the renovation actually an asset?

I will agree renovations typically have a poor return 60-70% but perhaps you should count this as an asset gain? What if you do the work yourself and come in at 50% of a typical renovation like mmm? How should we think about this?
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: ToughMother on June 15, 2017, 08:54:13 PM
$110K/65.7% savings rate this year

caveat 1: interior remodeling work and wedding this year, so lower than usual rate

caveat 2: just got major promotion and raise on May 1.  In past, $$ significantly lower and savings rate a bit lower too

Did you save for the wedding/remodel? If so, then I would personally consider that as part of the savings rate. I don't know if, or how, the intention of the poll is to account for what you spend those savings on.

If you spend your savings, then it isn't saving any more.  It is spending.  I think the question clearly meant saving for retirement.

Savings are for expenses that happen at a later date whether the savings are for later retirement, travel, healthcare, house maintenance, emergency spending, etc.  In any event, the wedding/remodel is being primarily paid for with PRIOR savings (interestingly, savings intended for neither of those...) and a bit from current income (cash, no financing of anything).  Since I'm spending a bit of my current income on these new/one time expenses, that does not count as savings as FrogStash notes -- it is definitely spending, so my savings rate is down a bit.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Lmoot on June 15, 2017, 09:36:25 PM
$110K/65.7% savings rate this year

caveat 1: interior remodeling work and wedding this year, so lower than usual rate

caveat 2: just got major promotion and raise on May 1.  In past, $$ significantly lower and savings rate a bit lower too

Did you save for the wedding/remodel? If so, then I would personally consider that as part of the savings rate. I don't know if, or how, the intention of the poll is to account for what you spend those savings on.

If you spend your savings, then it isn't saving any more.  It is spending.  I think the question clearly meant saving for retirement.

 I don't think it was very clear that it was for retirement savings. It would've said retirement savings, and apparently a whole bunch of other people missed the message as they included non-retirement savings. It is important to know your savings rate, or capability, whether or not it's going towards retirement or other things. Because you can always change your mind what you're saving for later, all the way up until the second before you spend it.

I'd agree just bc you're putting money away now if it's earmarked to be spent later it is most certainly not savings. Unless that earmark is for when in retired.

I put a dollar in my bank today to buy a candy bar tomorrow. Does not increase my savings rate by a dollar.

Same way putting 1k in the bank today for my wedding next summer doesn't mean I increased my savings by 1k

What say you then about buying assets? Or saving to invest in assets (remodel), or invest in a business.

Remodeling isn't at asset unless you're flipping the house for profit. Investing with the goal of making more money to fire would be savings rate.

I didn't call it an asset. I called it an investment in an asset.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Lmoot on June 16, 2017, 04:06:38 AM
$110K/65.7% savings rate this year

caveat 1: interior remodeling work and wedding this year, so lower than usual rate

caveat 2: just got major promotion and raise on May 1.  In past, $$ significantly lower and savings rate a bit lower too

Did you save for the wedding/remodel? If so, then I would personally consider that as part of the savings rate. I don't know if, or how, the intention of the poll is to account for what you spend those savings on.

If you spend your savings, then it isn't saving any more.  It is spending.  I think the question clearly meant saving for retirement.

Savings are for expenses that happen at a later date whether the savings are for later retirement, travel, healthcare, house maintenance, emergency spending, etc.  In any event, the wedding/remodel is being primarily paid for with PRIOR savings (interestingly, savings intended for neither of those...) and a bit from current income (cash, no financing of anything).  Since I'm spending a bit of my current income on these new/one time expenses, that does not count as savings as FrogStash notes -- it is definitely spending, so my savings rate is down a bit.

It sounds like we have our own ideas of what constitutes 1) savings 2) savings rate. And I am sure it matters how you measure it too. What if one were to say, savings rate for 2017? But you had some those savings marked for something in 2018? Is it not accurate to include those earmarked savings? It's just a moving measurement, it's not the end-game...at least that's how I interpret and calculate it for my own purposes.

Saving is a decision. Spending IMO, is a separate decision. Spending in the future might reduce your savings rate going forward, but I personally do not count it as retroactively reducing your savings rate if you take cash out of savings (NOT unless you are doing an end quarter, end year, end decade, pre-post retirement calculation); which is fine if that's how you do it. I find it easier and more useful for myself to calculate my savings rate on a monthly basis. It lets me know how much of my income I have available to save, and how much I have the will power to put away for another time.

As for boarder42's example of saving for a candy bar....if you want to xfer funds to designated savings account, and then transfer it back later, then yeah, call it savings....it would take more than 1 business day though.

Sometimes I even calculate the savings rate for a future purpose. How much do I have to save, in order to reach 'x' goal by 'x' time. So you see, it's merely a measurement, and it's up to us to define its parameters based on what we are using it for. But one definition of "savings rate" is not built into the term.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: ToughMother on June 16, 2017, 04:28:51 AM
First the retirement police, and now the savings police! (and evidently the "who is worthy" police too.  wow).

Like one of the poster's said - we have a general definition of savings that includes individual differences.  So be it.  Like yet another poster, I used this methodology: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/26/calculating-net-worth/

That methodology works for me and I have the Personal Capital evidence of net worth (closing in on $800k - yay!) to demonstrate the veracity of my personal savings (and spending) rates (I reconcile quarterly).  I'm happy with the internal consistency of my financial data. 

Hope you all are too!  And good job to everyone who's hitting those 50% plus savings rates (however defined) and those who aspire to.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Feivel2000 on June 16, 2017, 05:23:29 AM
Infant development center.

Apparently the more sophisticated words you put in your name the more you can charge people.

I'm going to start the infant cranium enlargement school for kids who can't read good and want to do other things good too

Really? Now you're going to go there? I take my kid to a day care center, and that's what I called it. You are really unbelievable.  At least you can admit you are wrong.

Don't be too offended, it's a Zoolander joke.
http://gph.is/XKIy3w (http://gph.is/XKIy3w)
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Teachstache on June 16, 2017, 06:14:13 AM
Infant development center.

Apparently the more sophisticated words you put in your name the more you can charge people.

I'm going to start the infant cranium enlargement school for kids who can't read good and want to do other things good too

I used to think (not say) these kinds of things, too. Basically, I was an expert on parenting before I had a kid. Now, I have an autistic 2 year old & my whole perspective has shifted. Some things just aren't under my control, & if I need to spend a bit more to help my kid develop language & social skills, that's money well spent in my book.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Bird In Hand on June 16, 2017, 06:46:17 AM
I used to think (not say) these kinds of things, too. Basically, I was an expert on parenting before I had a kid. Now, I have an autistic 2 year old & my whole perspective has shifted. Some things just aren't under my control, & if I need to spend a bit more to help my kid develop language & social skills, that's money well spent in my book.

+1.  The world looks very black & white when viewed from an ivory tower.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 16, 2017, 07:06:08 AM
do none of you get the zoolander reference its been stated quite a few times.

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Fire2025 on June 16, 2017, 08:06:51 AM
I don't count the money in my savings account toward my savings rate. FIRE is my goal, so all that really counts is what's going to the stache.  The savings account is short term future spending (i.e. house and garage remodel/build) so I just have never thought of it in terms of savings rate.

I also never thought of my employer match in my savings rate, but I'm going to add that in in the future.  It's money going to the stache so...it fits my self defined description of savings.  WooHoo!! 
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Teachstache on June 16, 2017, 08:14:59 AM
do none of you get the zoolander reference its been stated quite a few times.

Yeah, boarder, I DO get it. As a reading specialist, it's one of my favorite tongue in cheek references. The sentiment behind your statements isn't quite as humorous.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Bird In Hand on June 16, 2017, 08:16:21 AM
do none of you get the zoolander reference its been stated quite a few times.

I'll only speak for myself: I didn't get the Zoolander reference (I watched that movie many years ago and apparently it didn't leave much of an impression on me).  Subsequently it was pointed out that it was a reference, which I took note of.

Teachstache's point is that there's a difference between knowing about something and understanding it through experience.  Our understanding shapes our actions and behavior, and that includes spending choices when it comes to what we believe is best for our children.

Sometimes hypothetical optimal choices don't relate well to real-world decisions people have to make about their real children.  Referencing the previous discussion about child care costs, just because some online document says the range of cost is $1,300-$2,100 or whatever, doesn't mean that it's "unmustachian" if someone ends up paying near or above the top of that range.  It could be that the $1,300 options are suboptimal for a number of reasons: poor care, far away from home/work, etc.  Likewise, it could simply be that a very expensive option is more optimal in some respects: on-site at the parent's workplace, staff with specialized training for non-neurotypical kids, better security/safety, etc.

I hope you can understand that child care isn't solely a financial transaction subject to optimization where minimal cost is the only constraint.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 16, 2017, 08:31:14 AM
I don't count the money in my savings account toward my savings rate. FIRE is my goal, so all that really counts is what's going to the stache.  The savings account is short term future spending (i.e. house and garage remodel/build) so I just have never thought of it in terms of savings rate.

I also never thought of my employer match in my savings rate, but I'm going to add that in in the future.  It's money going to the stache so...it fits my self defined description of savings.  WooHoo!!

yep this is the way to do it.  just make sure you put that match on both sides of the equation.  counts as income and additional savings.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 16, 2017, 08:43:21 AM


I have a child in day care in a HCOLA, I think that makes my post on how much daycare ACTUALLY costs a lot more valid than your random internet browser search.

But just to show you I can 'google' too:

The average cost for full time care in NYC ranges from $1,300-$2,500/month. Centers typically charge more for younger children because they require more care and attention (diaper changes, feeding help, etc.). Costs for infant and toddler care averages $1,800/month in NYC.
Child Care Centers - NYU
https://www.nyu.edu/employees/life...care/child-care/...children/child-care-centers.html


I'm a Manhattan nanny, so I'm fully aware of how much childcare CAN cost, if you let it. (My entire salary!)

Note, the source I found said $1354 average. (and I didn't cherry pick. I just used the first source)
The source you picked said $1800/mo average

Your original claim was $2500. You realize that even if you use your own source that's still too much.

When they (the source YOU quoted) say the NYC childcare cost RANGES from $1300-$2500, no Mustachian would budget for the HIGHEST amount in the range.

These are old data. MY center is $2500 a month in a HCOLA. Other areas are similar. No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare to save a few dollars if it was important to them.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Prairie Stash on June 16, 2017, 09:41:11 AM


I have a child in day care in a HCOLA, I think that makes my post on how much daycare ACTUALLY costs a lot more valid than your random internet browser search.

But just to show you I can 'google' too:

The average cost for full time care in NYC ranges from $1,300-$2,500/month. Centers typically charge more for younger children because they require more care and attention (diaper changes, feeding help, etc.). Costs for infant and toddler care averages $1,800/month in NYC.
Child Care Centers - NYU
https://www.nyu.edu/employees/life...care/child-care/...children/child-care-centers.html


I'm a Manhattan nanny, so I'm fully aware of how much childcare CAN cost, if you let it. (My entire salary!)

Note, the source I found said $1354 average. (and I didn't cherry pick. I just used the first source)
The source you picked said $1800/mo average

Your original claim was $2500. You realize that even if you use your own source that's still too much.

When they (the source YOU quoted) say the NYC childcare cost RANGES from $1300-$2500, no Mustachian would budget for the HIGHEST amount in the range.

These are old data. MY center is $2500 a month in a HCOLA. Other areas are similar. No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare to save a few dollars if it was important to them.
The original point is valid, some of us are extremely clever and have found cheaper alternatives. Before taking a stand, maybe look at the message and realize that a lot of us have found cheaper alternatives without compromising our children's welfare.

Having tried the larger centers I was extremely disappointed with the illness rate compared to private care. How often does your child get sick? My last center was predominantly the children of lawyers, engineers, doctors and you could count on regular exposures to pink eye, flu and loads of childhood illnesses, some picked up overseas from vacations which the affluent seem to take more of. It turns out, in my experience, the smaller day homes have lower illness rates and save money, have you tried both? Next time your little one is sick just think, your choices also influence their health.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: shawndoggy on June 16, 2017, 09:44:24 AM
The bands on the savings rates are kinda whack.  20-50% is quite a range.  48% is a lot more than 20.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 16, 2017, 09:45:21 AM


I have a child in day care in a HCOLA, I think that makes my post on how much daycare ACTUALLY costs a lot more valid than your random internet browser search.

But just to show you I can 'google' too:

The average cost for full time care in NYC ranges from $1,300-$2,500/month. Centers typically charge more for younger children because they require more care and attention (diaper changes, feeding help, etc.). Costs for infant and toddler care averages $1,800/month in NYC.
Child Care Centers - NYU
https://www.nyu.edu/employees/life...care/child-care/...children/child-care-centers.html


I'm a Manhattan nanny, so I'm fully aware of how much childcare CAN cost, if you let it. (My entire salary!)

Note, the source I found said $1354 average. (and I didn't cherry pick. I just used the first source)
The source you picked said $1800/mo average

Your original claim was $2500. You realize that even if you use your own source that's still too much.

When they (the source YOU quoted) say the NYC childcare cost RANGES from $1300-$2500, no Mustachian would budget for the HIGHEST amount in the range.

These are old data. MY center is $2500 a month in a HCOLA. Other areas are similar. No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare to save a few dollars if it was important to them.
The original point is valid, some of us are extremely clever and have found cheaper alternatives. Before taking a stand, maybe look at the message and realize that a lot of us have found cheaper alternatives without compromising our children's welfare.

Having tried the larger centers I was extremely disappointed with the illness rate compared to private care. How often does your child get sick? My last center was predominantly the children of lawyers, engineers, doctors and you could count on regular exposures to pink eye, flu and loads of childhood illnesses, some picked up overseas from vacations which the affluent seem to take more of. It turns out, in my experience, the smaller day homes have lower illness rates and save money, have you tried both? Next time your little one is sick just think, your choices also influence their health.

My kiddo is extremely healthy. I think with hand sanitizers, required washing of hands before entering and leaving, and no shoes inside policy - it's a cleaner and more regulated environment. They are required to clean toys and common areas every night. No room for hiding germs at all... She's been sick once or twice over the years, but nothing serious. There are a lot more benefits to a large center IMO than a small private house but that's probably for another thread.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Scortius on June 16, 2017, 09:58:03 AM
What is the minimum SR needed to be a true Mustachian?

I'd say it has much more to do with spending that saving. And I'd put it around 40k with housing for a family of 4. Even if doubled for high col area it's only 80k

Here's what 220k gross in a HCOLA looks like:
50k taxes
40k housing (2bd/2ba apt)
15k daycare (this is in-home; would be 25k at a daycare center)
15k support for a relative (non-negotiable for us)
70k savings
30k everything else

Our 30k spend after fixed costs isn't too far off from MMM family's 25k. With both of us working, we do pay for some conveniences, but it's worth it to us with a crazy toddler.

Savings rate: 70k/170k(net) = 41%, or 70k/220k(gross) = 32%

See, I think this is a great argument to show how well you can do.  First of all, you're saving 70k per year!  Second of all, if you count the 15k support as money set aside and not spent on yourself, you're really spending half of your post-tax income, which is pretty darn similar to achieving a 50% savings rate.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: prognastat on June 16, 2017, 09:59:24 AM
I have to say I'm with Boarder on this one too. I come to this forum for a sense of community where rampant consumerism and excuses for spending aren't constantly made. Since I don't have any mustachians around my in my day to day life it is actually easy to see how my frame of reference could be shifted towards higher spending simply by human nature making me want to fit in with those around me.

I don't come here to hear excuses for spending and be told how there is no need to strive to do better when you have a 25% savings when you make 200k a year. You do realize that MMM advocates optimizing just about every choice and not just saying oh spending more is better. That is the whole point of his website and the forum. It is one thing to say I am not able to do these things like many here do, however it is another to say that there is no need to strive to do better and that sometimes you shouldn't try to optimize your financial choices.

Although I haven't been actively posting here for forever I have been lurking and intermittently posting here for the past 3 years and have definitely noticed a shift towards people complaining about face punches and how the community has to be more accepting of people that aren't willing to strive towards mustachianism the way outlined in the blog. We are at about 60% savings rate at just over 100k and I have to admit that even at that I could be doing better, but I'm not advocating that others should not call me out on these and try to help me do better.

Also people are going to be a lot more accepting of a sub 50% savings rate on a 50k income than when you are making over 100k and still aren't. It's not just about savings rate it is also about spending. The median household income in the US is 50k, saying you absolutely need to spend 150k is ridiculous.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 16, 2017, 10:06:33 AM
The bands on the savings rates are kinda whack.  20-50% is quite a range.  48% is a lot more than 20.

I know the bands are quite large but my intention was just to get an idea of how many lower income people have a modest savings rate of 0-20% versus stepping it up to be more aggressive than normal versus a more extreme rate of 50% which on smaller incomes is rather impressive.

To be perfectly honest even the salary bands could be expanded quite a bit. I didn't think this poll would get over 500 responses. When I created it I was thinking I'd get perhaps 2 dozen responses and with too many options the data would have been fairly inconclusive and not credible.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Prairie Stash on June 16, 2017, 10:42:11 AM


My kiddo is extremely healthy. I think with hand sanitizers, required washing of hands before entering and leaving, and no shoes inside policy - it's a cleaner and more regulated environment. They are required to clean toys and common areas every night. No room for hiding germs at all... She's been sick once or twice over the years, but nothing serious. There are a lot more benefits to a large center IMO than a small private house but that's probably for another thread.
We can reach common ground, both small and large centers have benefits, I've tried both and can see both sides. I'm of the opinion it depends on the child, you'll never convince me its black and white. I know very well the procedures in place at centers, having attended one, do you think a two year old regularly uses hand sanitizer though?  The route of infection has never been the workers.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1349981/  A link for anyone interested in the science of illness among respective daycare choices. Even with the sanitizer the science shows its a dirty environment primarily due to exposure routes, germs don't need to hide they get transmitted directly.

However, paying $30,000/child/year is on the high end. Actively pushing that anyone who isn't paying $2500 is harming their children is elitism. In the poll you have many people making $30,000 and you're comment that "No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare" speaks of a heightened sense of entitlement. Are you actually saying that my cheaper childcare choice is bad for my children?

However, if you concede that my choice might be equally decent, then you have the uncomfortable position that I'm doing equally well for my children at a substantially lower cost. So which is it, am I harming my children or is my lower cost choice equally valid? I'll gladly say that you're children are being given great opportunities, I'm not disputing your choice is right for you. Will you extend the same courtesy?

You asked Boarder to admit if they're wrong. Will you do the same or double down on saying that I'm cheap and that my childcare isn't important to me.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Scortius on June 16, 2017, 11:05:43 AM


My kiddo is extremely healthy. I think with hand sanitizers, required washing of hands before entering and leaving, and no shoes inside policy - it's a cleaner and more regulated environment. They are required to clean toys and common areas every night. No room for hiding germs at all... She's been sick once or twice over the years, but nothing serious. There are a lot more benefits to a large center IMO than a small private house but that's probably for another thread.
We can reach common ground, both small and large centers have benefits, I've tried both and can see both sides. I'm of the opinion it depends on the child, you'll never convince me its black and white. I know very well the procedures in place at centers, having attended one, do you think a two year old regularly uses hand sanitizer though?  The route of infection has never been the workers.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1349981/  A link for anyone interested in the science of illness among respective daycare choices. Even with the sanitizer the science shows its a dirty environment primarily due to exposure routes, germs don't need to hide they get transmitted directly.

However, paying $30,000/child/year is on the high end. Actively pushing that anyone who isn't paying $2500 is harming their children is elitism. In the poll you have many people making $30,000 and you're comment that "No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare" speaks of a heightened sense of entitlement. Are you actually saying that my cheaper childcare choice is bad for my children?

However, if you concede that my choice might be equally decent, then you have the uncomfortable position that I'm doing equally well for my children at a substantially lower cost. So which is it, am I harming my children or is my lower cost choice equally valid? I'll gladly say that you're children are being given great opportunities, I'm not disputing your choice is right for you. Will you extend the same courtesy?

You asked Boarder to admit if they're wrong. Will you do the same or double down on saying that I'm cheap and that my childcare isn't important to me.

Meh, your argument doesn't really hold water.  It's quite possible that the $2,500/mo day care does provide a marginally better service than a cheaper one.  It doesn't mean you're cheap for not spending that much, but it doesn't make honeybbq 'elitist' for choosing to spend for that marginal return.

I think it's important here to read MMM's Ivy League Preschool post.  I do agree that the benefits of these fancy preschools with individual study plans for toddlers through pre-K provide marginal benefits over simpler preschools that allow the kids to have lots of playground time interspersed with various arts and crafts, read-along, and free play activities.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: talltexan on June 16, 2017, 12:50:55 PM
If the debate is still open about what savings rate is the minimum to be "mustachian", how about we reframe it in terms of opposition.

All of us face opposition from a culture that exalts consumerism. Some of us also face other forces--personal habits, upbringing, spousal choices, family interactions--that put us in different places as far as what savings rate is possible. Some of us might well be meeting help from these forces, while others are meeting resistance.

But we are here to interact with people who share the value of finding happiness from something other than spending money. In addition, we are concerned about generating less pollution that affects everyone. Our communications are in the context of these values, with the savings rate being a result, not a cause. So, if you seek a path that runs counter to consumerism, THAT is what makes you a mustachian, NOT any particular savings rate.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Optimiser on June 16, 2017, 01:24:20 PM
I have to say I'm with Boarder on this one too. I come to this forum for a sense of community where rampant consumerism and excuses for spending aren't constantly made. Since I don't have any mustachians around my in my day to day life it is actually easy to see how my frame of reference could be shifted towards higher spending simply by human nature making me want to fit in with those around me.

I don't come here to hear excuses for spending and be told how there is no need to strive to do better when you have a 25% savings when you make 200k a year. You do realize that MMM advocates optimizing just about every choice and not just saying oh spending more is better. That is the whole point of his website and the forum. It is one thing to say I am not able to do these things like many here do, however it is another to say that there is no need to strive to do better and that sometimes you shouldn't try to optimize your financial choices.

Although I haven't been actively posting here for forever I have been lurking and intermittently posting here for the past 3 years and have definitely noticed a shift towards people complaining about face punches and how the community has to be more accepting of people that aren't willing to strive towards mustachianism the way outlined in the blog. We are at about 60% savings rate at just over 100k and I have to admit that even at that I could be doing better, but I'm not advocating that others should not call me out on these and try to help me do better.

Also people are going to be a lot more accepting of a sub 50% savings rate on a 50k income than when you are making over 100k and still aren't. It's not just about savings rate it is also about spending. The median household income in the US is 50k, saying you absolutely need to spend 150k is ridiculous.

+1

There is way to much justification for high spending going on around here for site based on living an awesome life for around 25k a year(+housing).
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: ixtap on June 16, 2017, 01:36:49 PM
I have to say I'm with Boarder on this one too. I come to this forum for a sense of community where rampant consumerism and excuses for spending aren't constantly made. Since I don't have any mustachians around my in my day to day life it is actually easy to see how my frame of reference could be shifted towards higher spending simply by human nature making me want to fit in with those around me.

I don't come here to hear excuses for spending and be told how there is no need to strive to do better when you have a 25% savings when you make 200k a year. You do realize that MMM advocates optimizing just about every choice and not just saying oh spending more is better. That is the whole point of his website and the forum. It is one thing to say I am not able to do these things like many here do, however it is another to say that there is no need to strive to do better and that sometimes you shouldn't try to optimize your financial choices.

Although I haven't been actively posting here for forever I have been lurking and intermittently posting here for the past 3 years and have definitely noticed a shift towards people complaining about face punches and how the community has to be more accepting of people that aren't willing to strive towards mustachianism the way outlined in the blog. We are at about 60% savings rate at just over 100k and I have to admit that even at that I could be doing better, but I'm not advocating that others should not call me out on these and try to help me do better.

Also people are going to be a lot more accepting of a sub 50% savings rate on a 50k income than when you are making over 100k and still aren't. It's not just about savings rate it is also about spending. The median household income in the US is 50k, saying you absolutely need to spend 150k is ridiculous.

+1

There is way to much justification for high spending going on around here for site based on living an awesome life for around 25k a year(+housing).

Even MMM didn't find that life sustainable and found creative ways to justify more spending, what do you expect of mere mortals?
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Prairie Stash on June 16, 2017, 01:56:40 PM


My kiddo is extremely healthy. I think with hand sanitizers, required washing of hands before entering and leaving, and no shoes inside policy - it's a cleaner and more regulated environment. They are required to clean toys and common areas every night. No room for hiding germs at all... She's been sick once or twice over the years, but nothing serious. There are a lot more benefits to a large center IMO than a small private house but that's probably for another thread.
We can reach common ground, both small and large centers have benefits, I've tried both and can see both sides. I'm of the opinion it depends on the child, you'll never convince me its black and white. I know very well the procedures in place at centers, having attended one, do you think a two year old regularly uses hand sanitizer though?  The route of infection has never been the workers.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1349981/  A link for anyone interested in the science of illness among respective daycare choices. Even with the sanitizer the science shows its a dirty environment primarily due to exposure routes, germs don't need to hide they get transmitted directly.

However, paying $30,000/child/year is on the high end. Actively pushing that anyone who isn't paying $2500 is harming their children is elitism. In the poll you have many people making $30,000 and you're comment that "No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare" speaks of a heightened sense of entitlement. Are you actually saying that my cheaper childcare choice is bad for my children?

However, if you concede that my choice might be equally decent, then you have the uncomfortable position that I'm doing equally well for my children at a substantially lower cost. So which is it, am I harming my children or is my lower cost choice equally valid? I'll gladly say that you're children are being given great opportunities, I'm not disputing your choice is right for you. Will you extend the same courtesy?

You asked Boarder to admit if they're wrong. Will you do the same or double down on saying that I'm cheap and that my childcare isn't important to me.

Meh, your argument doesn't really hold water.  It's quite possible that the $2,500/mo day care does provide a marginally better service than a cheaper one.  It doesn't mean you're cheap for not spending that much, but it doesn't make honeybbq 'elitist' for choosing to spend for that marginal return.

I think it's important here to read MMM's Ivy League Preschool post.  I do agree that the benefits of these fancy preschools with individual study plans for toddlers through pre-K provide marginal benefits over simpler preschools that allow the kids to have lots of playground time interspersed with various arts and crafts, read-along, and free play activities.
Calling someone cheap is elite. It wasn't their actions, its the judgement they passed on people who spend less. Most of this forum can't spend $2500/month, they're not being cheap. Of those that can spend that amount and choose no to, they're also not being cheap, they're being frugal. Frugal is the conscious decision to spend less because you've weighed the marginal benefits of spending more. Cheap is what you call people when you want to be insulting or show disdain.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 16, 2017, 02:04:43 PM
I have to say I'm with Boarder on this one too. I come to this forum for a sense of community where rampant consumerism and excuses for spending aren't constantly made. Since I don't have any mustachians around my in my day to day life it is actually easy to see how my frame of reference could be shifted towards higher spending simply by human nature making me want to fit in with those around me.

I don't come here to hear excuses for spending and be told how there is no need to strive to do better when you have a 25% savings when you make 200k a year. You do realize that MMM advocates optimizing just about every choice and not just saying oh spending more is better. That is the whole point of his website and the forum. It is one thing to say I am not able to do these things like many here do, however it is another to say that there is no need to strive to do better and that sometimes you shouldn't try to optimize your financial choices.

Although I haven't been actively posting here for forever I have been lurking and intermittently posting here for the past 3 years and have definitely noticed a shift towards people complaining about face punches and how the community has to be more accepting of people that aren't willing to strive towards mustachianism the way outlined in the blog. We are at about 60% savings rate at just over 100k and I have to admit that even at that I could be doing better, but I'm not advocating that others should not call me out on these and try to help me do better.

Also people are going to be a lot more accepting of a sub 50% savings rate on a 50k income than when you are making over 100k and still aren't. It's not just about savings rate it is also about spending. The median household income in the US is 50k, saying you absolutely need to spend 150k is ridiculous.

+1

There is way to much justification for high spending going on around here for site based on living an awesome life for around 25k a year(+housing).

I would say my spendy-pants is at around $30k a year +housing. I really should post a case study someday, I know I'd get ripped to shreds (which is why I've avoided doing it so far). I agree that you can live super-duper-extremely well at this amount. Perhaps we need a Case Study section we're people with low annual expenses share their lifestyle so we can all be in awe on how happy people's lives are on less money. That was kind of my intent with this survey I've helped 2 people I know IRL budget with a $50k salary and they told me I couldn't relate because I'm a higher income earner - I wanted to see how savings rates changed by individuals but perhaps that's not the best metic.  So now I'm thinking what you make is somewhat irrelevant and focusing on what you spend could perhaps spark an interesting conversation.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: respond2u on June 16, 2017, 02:09:34 PM
If the debate is still open about what savings rate is the minimum to be "mustachian", how about we reframe it in terms of opposition.

All of us face opposition from a culture that exalts consumerism. ...

Is it the savings rate that makes one mustachian, or the spending decisions? Whether I make 50K or 300K, seems to me looking for healthy ways to reduce or control spending seems to be the MMM way. Remember when he bought that CO2 tank for his soda water?

They've got so much income nowadays that I think Root Of Good is probably a better "frugal living" examplar, but paying attention to spending seems to be the common theme.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: prognastat on June 16, 2017, 02:19:46 PM
If the debate is still open about what savings rate is the minimum to be "mustachian", how about we reframe it in terms of opposition.

All of us face opposition from a culture that exalts consumerism. ...

Is it the savings rate that makes one mustachian, or the spending decisions? Whether I make 50K or 300K, seems to me looking for healthy ways to reduce or control spending seems to be the MMM way. Remember when he bought that CO2 tank for his soda water?

They've got so much income nowadays that I think Root Of Good is probably a better "frugal living" examplar, but paying attention to spending seems to be the common theme.

To me it is a combination of the two. Kind of like a sliding scale. If you have very low income I'm not expecting your savings rate to be as high as when you have a very high savings rate since your expenses don't have to scale 1:1 with your income.

If you spend 200k a year, but make 1.000.000 a year. I'll probably say you could spend less, but I won't judge it the way I would judge someone spending 100k a year when they make 150k a year so obviously it's not only spending since both are spending the same and both can technically afford the spending. In the same trend I would actually respect someone who is saving 25% on 50k a lot more than someone saving 25% on 200k.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: ixtap on June 16, 2017, 02:26:23 PM
Silly me, I thought the goal was for everyone to find ways to improve their own situation, rather than meeting arbitrary goals set by pseudonymous posters on the internet.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: prognastat on June 16, 2017, 02:35:45 PM
Silly me, I thought the goal was for everyone to find ways to improve their own situation, rather than meeting arbitrary goals set by pseudonymous posters on the internet.

I hear a lot of complainypantsing.

If you've read much of the blog you'll know MMM isn't some kind of relativist when it comes to spending. He judges people for increasing their spending as their income grows and advocates that his family of 3 spending 25k a year + housing cost/paid off house is the right thing to do. He also argues that you should drive as little as possible and instead use a bicycle. He sets very specific goals he wants to convince people of.

I'm not judging people for not being able to live just like MMM, I judge them for making excuses about how it is simply impossible to improve their spending/savings when they spend orders of magnitude more than even than that.

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: ixtap on June 16, 2017, 02:48:57 PM
Silly me, I thought the goal was for everyone to find ways to improve their own situation, rather than meeting arbitrary goals set by pseudonymous posters on the internet.

I hear a lot of complainypantsing.

If you've read much of the blog you'll know MMM isn't some kind of relativist when it comes to spending. He judges people for increasing their spending as their income grows and advocates that his family of 3 spending 25k a year + housing cost/paid off house is the right thing to do. He also argues that you should drive as little as possible and instead use a bicycle. He sets very specific goals he wants to convince people of.

I'm not judging people for not being able to live just like MMM, I judge them for making excuses about how it is simply impossible to improve their spending/savings when they spend orders of magnitude more than even than that.

If you have been reading the blog, you know that MMM currently spends orders of magnitude more than that, he just calls it something else if it doesn't fit into the minimalist lifestyle.

He also rails against consumerism for consumerism's sake. People on this thread are arguing about the cost of daycare and groceries.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 16, 2017, 02:50:35 PM


My kiddo is extremely healthy. I think with hand sanitizers, required washing of hands before entering and leaving, and no shoes inside policy - it's a cleaner and more regulated environment. They are required to clean toys and common areas every night. No room for hiding germs at all... She's been sick once or twice over the years, but nothing serious. There are a lot more benefits to a large center IMO than a small private house but that's probably for another thread.
We can reach common ground, both small and large centers have benefits, I've tried both and can see both sides. I'm of the opinion it depends on the child, you'll never convince me its black and white. I know very well the procedures in place at centers, having attended one, do you think a two year old regularly uses hand sanitizer though?  The route of infection has never been the workers.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1349981/  A link for anyone interested in the science of illness among respective daycare choices. Even with the sanitizer the science shows its a dirty environment primarily due to exposure routes, germs don't need to hide they get transmitted directly.

However, paying $30,000/child/year is on the high end. Actively pushing that anyone who isn't paying $2500 is harming their children is elitism. In the poll you have many people making $30,000 and you're comment that "No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare" speaks of a heightened sense of entitlement. Are you actually saying that my cheaper childcare choice is bad for my children?

However, if you concede that my choice might be equally decent, then you have the uncomfortable position that I'm doing equally well for my children at a substantially lower cost. So which is it, am I harming my children or is my lower cost choice equally valid? I'll gladly say that you're children are being given great opportunities, I'm not disputing your choice is right for you. Will you extend the same courtesy?

You asked Boarder to admit if they're wrong. Will you do the same or double down on saying that I'm cheap and that my childcare isn't important to me.

I never said that anyone who doesn't pay 2500/month is harming their child. That is ridiculous. I said no mustachian would cheap out on child care in response to another poster that no real mustachian would pay 2500/month for their child, which is ridiculous, as well. It's about priorities and up to the individual to make those choices. I also made no judgement on you or your choices at all.

I have paid 200/week when I lived in the midwest and I've paid 800/week in a HCOLA. This is the whole point. You are sweeping with a really wide brush and it doesn't make sense. There IS NO CHILDCARE within 25 miles that is 200/week, so to accuse someone of paying more as being 'ridiculous' is also inherently ridiculous. Like buying a 400k house. They don't exist. Higher salaries are often tied to higher expenses intrinsically. That is the point of my statements.

It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area. 
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: prognastat on June 16, 2017, 03:12:03 PM
Silly me, I thought the goal was for everyone to find ways to improve their own situation, rather than meeting arbitrary goals set by pseudonymous posters on the internet.

I hear a lot of complainypantsing.

If you've read much of the blog you'll know MMM isn't some kind of relativist when it comes to spending. He judges people for increasing their spending as their income grows and advocates that his family of 3 spending 25k a year + housing cost/paid off house is the right thing to do. He also argues that you should drive as little as possible and instead use a bicycle. He sets very specific goals he wants to convince people of.

I'm not judging people for not being able to live just like MMM, I judge them for making excuses about how it is simply impossible to improve their spending/savings when they spend orders of magnitude more than even than that.

If you have been reading the blog, you know that MMM currently spends orders of magnitude more than that, he just calls it something else if it doesn't fit into the minimalist lifestyle.

He also rails against consumerism for consumerism's sake. People on this thread are arguing about the cost of daycare and groceries.

I have been and even if you were to include all the things you are counting as spending and put it all as this one year he still isn't spending anywhere near 150k last year.

Though I disagree that all of it should count as part of his year spending, he isn't buying a car every year nor is he building a stand-alone office every year. The building is probably a one of forever and the car will likely not be replaced for another 10 years and it can be argued that environmental concerns are a large part of his worldview and as such he could be seeing this as detrimental in frugality, but important in convincing people to switch to a more sustainable form of transport. As for the traveling this isn't something I'd even be interested in doing, could be achieved by credit card miles and is also related to both expanding MMMs brand.

Finally he has specifically made multiple posts addressing groceries and reducing spending there and the cost of having children.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: deborah on June 16, 2017, 03:51:08 PM
My take away from the figures is that it doesn't matter what you earn - a lot of people can save significant amounts of their earnings even if they don't earn much.

It just goes to show how little effort those who are earning a lot actually end up putting into saving.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Optimiser on June 16, 2017, 04:12:52 PM
My take away from the figures is that it doesn't matter what you earn - a lot of people can save significant amounts of their earnings even if they don't earn much.

It just goes to show how little effort those who are earning a lot actually end up putting into saving.

Agreed. I'm always impressed and inspired by people who save more money than me while making less. I could try to come up with reasons why that won't work for me, but instead I use it as motivation.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 16, 2017, 05:52:20 PM
Ixtap what are you trying to gain here. Are you arguing to try to get people to confirm your decisions or are you here to learn.  There is a mountain of wealth here and from your few posts in this thread it is blatantly obvious there is alot about personal finance and optimization you don't understand or refuse to listen to.

Open your mind and your finances with a case study. It likely would be eye opening to you just as you went thru it.

If you're here for justification of high spending it's unlikely to be found. 
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Fire2025 on June 16, 2017, 06:28:38 PM
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: ixtap on June 16, 2017, 06:46:00 PM
Ixtap what are you trying to gain here. Are you arguing to try to get people to confirm your decisions or are you here to learn.  There is a mountain of wealth here and from your few posts in this thread it is blatantly obvious there is alot about personal finance and optimization you don't understand or refuse to listen to.

Open your mind and your finances with a case study. It likely would be eye opening to you just as you went thru it.

If you're here for justification of high spending it's unlikely to be found.

I am trying to gain a few of the posters here moving away from acting like a cult. There was literally a comment about "If you don't do what I expect, why are you even using these forums." However, justifying MMMs additional spending while simultaneously lambasting others doing the same thing in their own lives doesn't sound like that is a horse I should bother beating.

As for personal finance knowledge, I do at least understand that something "not happening every year" is a poor reason to exclude it from your spending. As a matter of fact, it is right in line with the I deserve it mentality so often used to justify a splurge.
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.



So if I move to a HCOL to earn more and am able to save $75k, even with the additional expenses, vs the $50k I was able to save in a LCOL, by your definition I have failed?



Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 16, 2017, 07:11:32 PM
You still don't get it but continue to argue. That will work to your benefit.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on June 16, 2017, 09:50:00 PM
As I commented in another thread, once we start talking about spending in dollar terms we end up in a confusion of HCOL / LCOL, high income w/ 50% savings vs. low income w x%, young / healthy / DINK vs. high medical / family situation / plain able to spend...  it is unproductive to talk about spending $x unless we develop an 'apples to apples' system.  Sadly, I believe MMM has lead the forum down this rabbit hole with his annual '$25k and ultimate luxury' spending reports.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 17, 2017, 05:36:47 AM
As I commented in another thread, once we start talking about spending in dollar terms we end up in a confusion of HCOL / LCOL, high income w/ 50% savings vs. low income w x%, young / healthy / DINK vs. high medical / family situation / plain able to spend...  it is unproductive to talk about spending $x unless we develop an 'apples to apples' system.  Sadly, I believe MMM has lead the forum down this rabbit hole with his annual '$25k and ultimate luxury' spending reports.

This scale was tipped by those claiming saving much more the 20-25% on 200k hh income was not really possible for them.  Which I don't really care where you live that's an incorrect statement over 90% of the time including family situation.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 17, 2017, 05:39:25 AM
But back to the purpose of the op. I don't really think you can see any real difference in the data. You have high medium and low savers at every income level. Most are saving at least 20%. But those saving 20-50 vs those saving over 50 are virtually equal amounts at each income level. Which I find very odd - specifically with the 100k plus level.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: human on June 17, 2017, 06:10:18 AM
Wow 50% of those polled make twice the median income. Goes to show many of the mmmers on here that like to bash those making less than median income are quite priviledged. This site and forum definitely do not represent the average person and their normal problems.

Fuck half this thread is arguing about 1000 a month childcare v 2500  a month childcare. If you aren't handing off your kids to the wife beating welfare recipient next door every evening before heading to work in some restaurant or bar you are doing real good.

I'm so sick of hearing people explain away fearless leader's leaf and office. He doesn't need either it's bullshit just admit it. He can spend money on that nonesense but not 20 bucks for a used deck of magic cards for his only son?
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Fire2025 on June 17, 2017, 06:48:39 AM
So if I move to a HCOL to earn more and am able to save $75k, even with the additional expenses, vs the $50k I was able to save in a LCOL, by your definition I have failed?

I have never nor would I ever use the word "failed" and I'm very sorry if anyone read that.  I'm saying, I think there is a difference between:

"I spend based on my priorities, so I save 75k"
and
"I "have" to spend more because I live in a HCOL area so I can only save 75k". 

One is what we are all trying to move toward and one is what I'm trying to moving away from.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: shawndoggy on June 17, 2017, 07:55:12 AM
But back to the purpose of the op. I don't really think you can see any real difference in the data. You have high medium and low savers at every income level. Most are saving at least 20%. But those saving 20-50 vs those saving over 50 are virtually equal amounts at each income level. Which I find very odd - specifically with the 100k plus level.

but we really don't know where the savers are clustered.  the 20-50 group could be skewed at 45% + and the over 50% group could be skewed at under 55%.  Over 50% sounds like a lot more than 20%, but only marginally more than 48%.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: ttadae on June 17, 2017, 08:02:42 AM
We make $100k plus with a 20-50% savings rate, so though I'm usually a lurker I'm chiming in.

Many seemed surprised at this, but we need to recognize the poll, although interesting, doesn't give much detail.

We save 34% (ETA of our gross income) and live in a state with the 2nd highest state income taxes (9-11%.). Add that back in and we're closer to what it sounds like you all expect of a MMM'er.

We have two kids, and save for college which I did *not* account for in our savings rate since it won't go to retirement.  That's another 5%.

We chose to give 10% to charity.  It will delay our FIRE But it's the decision we made for ourselves.

We have an autistic daughter who has been kicked out of EVERY SINGLE daycare option we have tried.  (Not to mention every single outside activity we have attempted to have her involved in.). So we have a nanny.  Don't even get me started on this cost.  Or the cost of counseling.

The thing about kids, and it's easy to spout the "rules" when you're childless, or even when you have a standard neurotypical kid, is that if it were all about optimizing costs then none of us would have children.  Ever.  There's no way to guarantee you'll have the type of child who will fit into a purely optimized budget plan.  It's basically a way to guarantee your bills will be higher.  But should having kids be judged as harshly as other inflated expenses?  I personally think not. 

I get that some posters are trying to get us (as in the $100k+ with a <50% savings rate) to admit our budgets are sub-optimal.  And perhaps they are by your standards.  But I resent the implication that I don't belong here based on a sweeping generalization that has little flexibility for different non-consumerism type choices.

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: human on June 17, 2017, 08:57:35 AM
I was under the impression that most do not include takes as expenditures but rather calculate savings based on income net of income taxes (property taxes are another debate). Otherwise no one making over 100k could realistically hit 60-70% savings rate. Oh and many here tend to exclude mortgages from expenditures because they don't know the difference between net worth increases and spending.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: brooklynmoney on June 17, 2017, 12:00:05 PM
I make between 260 to 280gz a year. It's just me so I get to control every dollars spent or not spent. I normally spend 60k a year but am trying to get it down to closer to 48k. Of course about half of my gross goes to taxes. If I had a partner or kids I'm sure I'd spend more. My friend in my hood spends $2500 monthly for daycare. Kids are expensive yo epecially in HCOL areas.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Prairie Stash on June 17, 2017, 01:55:09 PM


My kiddo is extremely healthy. I think with hand sanitizers, required washing of hands before entering and leaving, and no shoes inside policy - it's a cleaner and more regulated environment. They are required to clean toys and common areas every night. No room for hiding germs at all... She's been sick once or twice over the years, but nothing serious. There are a lot more benefits to a large center IMO than a small private house but that's probably for another thread.
We can reach common ground, both small and large centers have benefits, I've tried both and can see both sides. I'm of the opinion it depends on the child, you'll never convince me its black and white. I know very well the procedures in place at centers, having attended one, do you think a two year old regularly uses hand sanitizer though?  The route of infection has never been the workers.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1349981/  A link for anyone interested in the science of illness among respective daycare choices. Even with the sanitizer the science shows its a dirty environment primarily due to exposure routes, germs don't need to hide they get transmitted directly.

However, paying $30,000/child/year is on the high end. Actively pushing that anyone who isn't paying $2500 is harming their children is elitism. In the poll you have many people making $30,000 and you're comment that "No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare" speaks of a heightened sense of entitlement. Are you actually saying that my cheaper childcare choice is bad for my children?

However, if you concede that my choice might be equally decent, then you have the uncomfortable position that I'm doing equally well for my children at a substantially lower cost. So which is it, am I harming my children or is my lower cost choice equally valid? I'll gladly say that you're children are being given great opportunities, I'm not disputing your choice is right for you. Will you extend the same courtesy?

You asked Boarder to admit if they're wrong. Will you do the same or double down on saying that I'm cheap and that my childcare isn't important to me.

I never said that anyone who doesn't pay 2500/month is harming their child. That is ridiculous. I said no mustachian would cheap out on child care in response to another poster that no real mustachian would pay 2500/month for their child, which is ridiculous, as well. It's about priorities and up to the individual to make those choices. I also made no judgement on you or your choices at all.

I have paid 200/week when I lived in the midwest and I've paid 800/week in a HCOLA. This is the whole point. You are sweeping with a really wide brush and it doesn't make sense. There IS NO CHILDCARE within 25 miles that is 200/week, so to accuse someone of paying more as being 'ridiculous' is also inherently ridiculous. Like buying a 400k house. They don't exist. Higher salaries are often tied to higher expenses intrinsically. That is the point of my statements.

It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.
I agree that there is likely no daycare for $200/week, what about $500/week? You took it to the extreme to try to prove a point but where I live a daycare provider with 4-5 kids in home (legal limits) at $500/week/kid would make over 6 figures ($2000/week and 52 weeks). Typically in my area the going rate is $300/week, $1000/month/kid ($50,000/year). The in home spots are done by mothers so they usually earn less as they don't "pay" for their own children. Are you seriously trying to convince the world there are no SAHP within 25 miles willing to earn $75,000 by taking in 3-4 kids/year? There's always new mothers where I live who do it for a few years just to spend more time with their kids, they're fantastic mothers and provide excellent care (MIL did it to spend time with my spouse as a toddler). What city do you live in where there's no SAHP daycares?

However, if you choose a center, that's your choice, feel free to move on without answering. I'm curious though, if you subtract daycare (all $30k) from your expenses and your income, does your SR improve considerably? For example if you make $150 and spend $100 now, how does it look making $120 and spending $70? I have 2 kids, daycare is a pretty short term expense (4-5 years/kid). If you ever get tired of the daycare debate just exclude it and then you can compare yourself to childless couples easier. Outside of daycare my kids costs are under $1000/year at this age, its a few clothes and some food, kids clothes are cheap and they eat very little.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Adram on June 18, 2017, 06:59:48 AM
Household income of about $180K, net after tax of $125K, saving rate of just under 75%. No kids, so i have no comment on childcare costs.

Excluding mortgage interest we will spend about $27,000 this year, while living in luxury.

And i agree with boarder, too many people on this board who don't want to buy into the mustachian philosophy. A horde of complainypants. Hell, there's even people who own boats! 😜
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: BTDretire on June 18, 2017, 08:02:55 AM
If there ever comes a time in my life when I need disapproval of my reading and posting on this forum, I'll be sure to check in with boarder42 and Adram.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: CoffeeAndDonuts on June 19, 2017, 08:56:48 AM
2 income, 1 kid in day care.

Gross: ~$160k equivalent to W2 income (*)
Net: $140.1k.
Spending: $68.2k (49%)
Savings Rate: $71.9k (51%)

Spending would fall to ~37% (of net) if I removed charity (we've been working on bringing this up) and daycare.

(*) We've got 1 W2 income, a K-1 from an s-corp, and 1 LLC filing as sole proprietor. I imagine I'm not the only one but it took some finagling to get my numbers to resemble a normal W2 style income. I made my my best attempt to standardize the numbers into MMM's format: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/26/calculating-net-worth/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/26/calculating-net-worth/).

Became aware of MMM and FI about a year ago but was already pretty in that world on my own, historically hovering around a 40% savings rate most of the last decade or more. I've learned a lot and up'ed our game!



Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: doublethinkmoney on June 19, 2017, 09:56:39 AM
Ixtap what are you trying to gain here. Are you arguing to try to get people to confirm your decisions or are you here to learn.  There is a mountain of wealth here and from your few posts in this thread it is blatantly obvious there is alot about personal finance and optimization you don't understand or refuse to listen to.

Open your mind and your finances with a case study. It likely would be eye opening to you just as you went thru it.

If you're here for justification of high spending it's unlikely to be found.

I am trying to gain a few of the posters here moving away from acting like a cult. There was literally a comment about "If you don't do what I expect, why are you even using these forums." However, justifying MMMs additional spending while simultaneously lambasting others doing the same thing in their own lives doesn't sound like that is a horse I should bother beating.

As for personal finance knowledge, I do at least understand that something "not happening every year" is a poor reason to exclude it from your spending. As a matter of fact, it is right in line with the I deserve it mentality so often used to justify a splurge.
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.



So if I move to a HCOL to earn more and am able to save $75k, even with the additional expenses, vs the $50k I was able to save in a LCOL, by your definition I have failed?
I am with you. There are far too many judgmental people with their noses in the air on this form looking for a FIGHT. Not even a single face punch,  but a constant poke the bear attitude. They have to prove they are so smart/enlightened and prove you are not "one of them". And they always have to say ONE more thing to say! It's non stop...

They completely ruined this thread by making it difficult to find everyone else's responses and being able to see what others savings rates are at a comparable income level.

They are not being helpful by making condescending and obviously inflammatory remarks to entice a response and keep the drama going. It's a waste of time and not helpful to anyone.

If you are making intentional decisions with your money, know where it's all going and what your goals are - who is anyone to judge? It's your life. I think the point of the blog is to open people's eyes to their spending, goals and how they can achieve FI. If you are engaged enough on this forum then you are aware. If you are unsure you will ask for a case study.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: caracarn on June 19, 2017, 10:17:29 AM


If you are making intentional decisions with your money, know where it's all going and what your goals are - who is anyone to judge? It's your life. I think the point of the blog is to open people's eyes to their spending, goals and how they can achieve FI. If you are engaged enough on this forum then you are aware. If you are unsure you will ask for a case study.


This is a good summation of my feelings.

I tried to rationally engage in trying to get those who were attacking to understand that it is not one size fits all.  My frustration/anger in the continued attacks was that I am not simply proceeding with my eyes closed and trying to justify higher spending.  I make significant efforts to optimize and also know there are areas where we have just said " not now" because it has an impact on our lifestyle we are not willing to take.  I was just surprised at the non-helpful attack focused attitude of a couple of what I guess are hardcore folks who just cannot let any comment go by unchallenged.  Getting hammered the way I did certainly will make me think twice about opening up about details that might bring on the wrath of folks who for some reason feel this should be a closed society only open to those who take the blood oath and when they deviate should be punished by death.

I do find in strange that somehow what MMM did specifically, including a kid who seems to not want to be involved in any activities that might involve equipment/instruments and other things that one cannot easily fabricate out of the dirt from ones backyard, can take on such a focused drive from some as to be the blueprint.  I almost feel like the response from them would be that we somehow raised out kids completely wrong because they wanted to be in marching band, or in science Olympiad or theater.    Or god forbid if they like an activity like gymnastics or dance where you need hours and hours of expensive lessons to progress, we somehow failed as a parent for allowing such consumerist ideas to even take root in their brains.  Not every kids enjoys the outdoors and playing in the mud.  Some have different interests.  So when others point to MMM supposedly covering topics like kids, I disagree.  Yes he wrote articles with that title, but he never deviated from his idea of a kid.  We are not optimizable robots with no interests that span other areas that may involve increased spending.  For this reason, I certainly agree with those posters who noted that if that were the goal, no one would ever justify having children.  Too much unpredictability which runs totally against MMM optimizing.  Almost all of our outlandish spending is related to things because of the kids.  We already have a "post-kid" budget and it falls quite in line with a $25K-$30K excluding home costs, so we feel like we have a solid handle on things and our retirement budget is just based on a little bump from the to $40K to allow for some extra travel because we know that is important to us.

For all the vehemence of the responses I got, not once did I come back and say "I can't do any better".  It was very much along the line of this posters note that it's my life and for now I'm OK with there I'm at.  It does not mean I've given up and have gone to the  dark side where I encourage everyone with a $100K+ income to go out an buy a yacht, yet somehow there is this push to ostracize people who are not currently successful at the hardcore lifestyle or have no desire to get all the way there.  Just not what I every really saw in this community until this thread.  I guess I should not have been a sucker assuming an innocent question about why more $100K+ people were not giving more details was actually innocent.  That instead it was a call to toss chum in the water so the sharks could have a field day.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 19, 2017, 10:44:14 AM
Ixtap what are you trying to gain here. Are you arguing to try to get people to confirm your decisions or are you here to learn.  There is a mountain of wealth here and from your few posts in this thread it is blatantly obvious there is alot about personal finance and optimization you don't understand or refuse to listen to.

Open your mind and your finances with a case study. It likely would be eye opening to you just as you went thru it.

If you're here for justification of high spending it's unlikely to be found.

I am trying to gain a few of the posters here moving away from acting like a cult. There was literally a comment about "If you don't do what I expect, why are you even using these forums." However, justifying MMMs additional spending while simultaneously lambasting others doing the same thing in their own lives doesn't sound like that is a horse I should bother beating.

As for personal finance knowledge, I do at least understand that something "not happening every year" is a poor reason to exclude it from your spending. As a matter of fact, it is right in line with the I deserve it mentality so often used to justify a splurge.
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.



So if I move to a HCOL to earn more and am able to save $75k, even with the additional expenses, vs the $50k I was able to save in a LCOL, by your definition I have failed?
I am with you. There are far too many judgmental people with their noses in the air on this form looking for a FIGHT. Not even a single face punch,  but a constant poke the bear attitude. They have to prove they are so smart/enlightened and prove you are not "one of them". And they always have to say ONE more thing to say! It's non stop...

They completely ruined this thread by making it difficult to find everyone else's responses and being able to see what others savings rates are at a comparable income level.

They are not being helpful by making condescending and obviously inflammatory remarks to entice a response and keep the drama going. It's a waste of time and not helpful to anyone.

If you are making intentional decisions with your money, know where it's all going and what your goals are - who is anyone to judge? It's your life. I think the point of the blog is to open people's eyes to their spending, goals and how they can achieve FI. If you are engaged enough on this forum then you are aware. If you are unsure you will ask for a case study.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

thats literally the point of this site. to have others judge and make you question all your decisions to help you FIRE earlier or in a better safer way. 

wa wah wah

its hard to save 50% on 200k ... no its not and making statements like this doesnt better the forum in any way shape or form. all it does is help feed into a group think mentality for newcomers around here ... like oh yeah i can keep my porsche and my cable.. these are cognitive decisions i made ... that makes them ok. 

its not comfortable to truly look at where your money is going and evaluate if thats truly a happiness point in your life.  but misery loves company and there is a growing number of people on here complaining about how hard it is to save on ridiculous levels of income. 
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 19, 2017, 11:01:39 AM
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.

My savings rate is around 50%. I'm not sure what hair you are splitting.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 19, 2017, 11:03:15 AM
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.

My savings rate is around 50%. I'm not sure what hair you are splitting.

b/c you're more or less coming to the defence of people making 200k and saving sub 25% of their money.  this is a large difference.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: ixtap on June 19, 2017, 11:04:20 AM


thats literally the point of this site. to have others judge and make you question all your decisions to help you FIRE earlier or in a better safer way. 

wa wah wah



No, it isn't. That is the point specifically of case studies. The site itself has many points, such as:
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: StarBright on June 19, 2017, 11:04:34 AM


So if I move to a HCOL to earn more and am able to save $75k, even with the additional expenses, vs the $50k I was able to save in a LCOL, by your definition I have failed?
I am with you. There are far too many judgmental people with their noses in the air on this form looking for a FIGHT. Not even a single face punch,  but a constant poke the bear attitude. They have to prove they are so smart/enlightened and prove you are not "one of them". And they always have to say ONE more thing to say! It's non stop...

They completely ruined this thread by making it difficult to find everyone else's responses and being able to see what others savings rates are at a comparable income level.

They are not being helpful by making condescending and obviously inflammatory remarks to entice a response and keep the drama going. It's a waste of time and not helpful to anyone.

If you are making intentional decisions with your money, know where it's all going and what your goals are - who is anyone to judge? It's your life. I think the point of the blog is to open people's eyes to their spending, goals and how they can achieve FI. If you are engaged enough on this forum then you are aware. If you are unsure you will ask for a case study.




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thats literally the point of this site. to have others judge and make you question all your decisions to help you FIRE earlier or in a better safer way. 

wa wah wah

its hard to save 50% on 200k ... no its not and making statements like this doesnt better the forum in any way shape or form. all it does is help feed into a group think mentality for newcomers around here ... like oh yeah i can keep my porsche and my cable.. these are cognitive decisions i made ... that makes them ok. 

its not comfortable to truly look at where your money is going and evaluate if thats truly a happiness point in your life.  but misery loves company and there is a growing number of people on here complaining about how hard it is to save on ridiculous levels of income.

I don't think it is fair to make this about newbies with "my porsche and my cable" - the reasons I've seen on this thread seem to be very childcare specific - ie. high costs of childcare (especially for children with additional needs) and saving for college, and higher healthcare costs that come with having a family. In fact, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only people who are saying it is hard to save 50% were people with children.

I also don't think I actually read a post where someone said it was hard to save 50% on 200k (I may have missed it - and if it was Caracarn with 6 children approaching college age I totally get it! :))). There were plenty of people who said it is hard to save 50% on 100k+ and it is very possible that they are at the bottom of the range. To be honest and upfront - we are the bottom of that range and saved 45% last year - the budget was too bare bones and unpleasant enough that I'm no longer aiming to save that much again. I guess I should get face punched.

I can't remember who at this point, but someone upthread basically said they were surprised at how many 100k+ people weren't saving 50% and then several people responded to that. It wasn't as if these respondents commented unprompted - they were responding to a specific question and giving info. They were trying to be helpful and provide context for savings rates.

I think folks nicely volunteered additional information and ended up being told "you don't belong on this forum."



Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 19, 2017, 11:06:32 AM
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.

My savings rate is around 50%. I'm not sure what hair you are splitting.

b/c you're more or less coming to the defence of people making 200k and saving sub 25% of their money.  this is a large difference.

I did no such thing. I said that relative costs associated with making large incomes are also usually larger so it's not apples to apples all the time. Just because the salary SOUNDS large, it's often eaten up by increased taxes and costs of living by being in areas where you can command such a salary. Why is this so hard to understand? I'd love to only pay 100/month property tax, but mine is over 10x that, and there's nothing I can do about it. That's what it costs to live here and command a large salary.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 19, 2017, 11:10:58 AM
Here's an example:

Living in LCOLA:
salary 125 k
daycare 200/week (10k/yr)
house cost: 350k (very nice house)
property tax: 3000/year

Living in HCOLA
salary 200k
daycare 700/week (36k/yr)
house cost: 750k (2 bedroom, needs work)
property tax: 10k/year

So while one makes 75k a year more, a lot of it goes to costs that are difficult to control (daycare, property tax, etc). In the long run, it's better to make more money as raises equate with more money, contributions to retirement funds if a % of salary are more, etc. However, one's overall savings 'rate' might be similar.

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on June 19, 2017, 11:11:48 AM
I think some folks confuse MMM with Jesus or someone. I suspect neither MMM nor Jesus aimed to be Jesus. They were folks doing their thing, sharing some good stuff that worked for them, and then other people went all Life of Brian on them.

I think they both encourage -and hope to inspire- others to live true to one's own values, not to theirs. Thus, every person being true to their deepest values and dreams, if not hurting others/the earth, is doing it right.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: caracarn on June 19, 2017, 11:21:42 AM

I can't remember who at this point, but someone upthread basically said they were surprised at how many 100k+ people weren't saving 50% and then several people responded to that. It wasn't as if these respondents commented unprompted - they were responding to a specific question and giving info. They were trying to be helpful and provide context for savings rates.

I think folks nicely volunteered additoinal information and ended up being told "you don't belong on this forum."
Yes, I was the first idiot who responded to that "prompt", and then "promptly" got my teeth kicked in for opening my mouth.  Was trying to further the conversation not become the punching bag in a game of "how MMM are you".
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Lmoot on June 19, 2017, 01:15:17 PM
Ixtap what are you trying to gain here. Are you arguing to try to get people to confirm your decisions or are you here to learn.  There is a mountain of wealth here and from your few posts in this thread it is blatantly obvious there is alot about personal finance and optimization you don't understand or refuse to listen to.

Open your mind and your finances with a case study. It likely would be eye opening to you just as you went thru it.

If you're here for justification of high spending it's unlikely to be found.

I am trying to gain a few of the posters here moving away from acting like a cult. There was literally a comment about "If you don't do what I expect, why are you even using these forums." However, justifying MMMs additional spending while simultaneously lambasting others doing the same thing in their own lives doesn't sound like that is a horse I should bother beating.

As for personal finance knowledge, I do at least understand that something "not happening every year" is a poor reason to exclude it from your spending. As a matter of fact, it is right in line with the I deserve it mentality so often used to justify a splurge.
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.



So if I move to a HCOL to earn more and am able to save $75k, even with the additional expenses, vs the $50k I was able to save in a LCOL, by your definition I have failed?
I am with you. There are far too many judgmental people with their noses in the air on this form looking for a FIGHT. Not even a single face punch,  but a constant poke the bear attitude. They have to prove they are so smart/enlightened and prove you are not "one of them". And they always have to say ONE more thing to say! It's non stop...

They completely ruined this thread by making it difficult to find everyone else's responses and being able to see what others savings rates are at a comparable income level.

They are not being helpful by making condescending and obviously inflammatory remarks to entice a response and keep the drama going. It's a waste of time and not helpful to anyone.

If you are making intentional decisions with your money, know where it's all going and what your goals are - who is anyone to judge? It's your life. I think the point of the blog is to open people's eyes to their spending, goals and how they can achieve FI. If you are engaged enough on this forum then you are aware. If you are unsure you will ask for a case study.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

thats literally the point of this site. to have others judge and make you question all your decisions to help you FIRE earlier or in a better safer way. 

wa wah wah

its hard to save 50% on 200k ... no its not and making statements like this doesnt better the forum in any way shape or form. all it does is help feed into a group think mentality for newcomers around here ... like oh yeah i can keep my porsche and my cable.. these are cognitive decisions i made ... that makes them ok. 

its not comfortable to truly look at where your money is going and evaluate if thats truly a happiness point in your life.  but misery loves company and there is a growing number of people on here complaining about how hard it is to save on ridiculous levels of income.

 I don't believe that you are only referring to people who complain because I constantly see you, and select others, lumping everyone together, and if people do say they are happy and satisfied with their decision both on how they spend their money now, and how early or not early they want to retire, you diminish their goals down to justifications.

 What if they don't want to retire earlier? And before you come at me and say well that is the point of this site, I didn't say they don't want to retire early. But some people genuinely have an ideal time they want to retire, and it's not based on when a bunch of strangers on the internet say they should retire.  One of the things I personally hate about consumerist society,  is the lemming-like tendencies  of its participants; the inability to mindfully assess ones's individual needs and desires, and follow through with them, even in the face of opposing popular view. Sounds quite a bit familiar around here. Consumerist behaviour doesn't only apply to over consumption of physical objects. You can overconsume ideologies as well.

 If you truly want to attempt a social experiment measuring the validity of one's happiness, I would 100% choose the individual who is secure enough in their goals, and shows the logical and mathematical work to support those goals, that they are not going to let a bunch of strangers on internet make convince them to do a complete edit, over the one who apparently isn't secure or happy enough in their prior decisions, that they seek and need the total validation of those same anonymous individuals. Retiring the earliest, is absolutely no guarantee of a happier life.  And if you are hedging all of your bets on having an entirely different life post retirement, then you are not doing something right in your life now in my opinion. I am so thankful that I don't feel the need to eat shit now for the "promise of milk and honey later". I guess that's the same reason I'm an atheist as well. I like to spread my bets around a little bit.

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 19, 2017, 01:19:53 PM

I can't remember who at this point, but someone upthread basically said they were surprised at how many 100k+ people weren't saving 50% and then several people responded to that. It wasn't as if these respondents commented unprompted - they were responding to a specific question and giving info. They were trying to be helpful and provide context for savings rates.

I think folks nicely volunteered additoinal information and ended up being told "you don't belong on this forum."
Yes, I was the first idiot who responded to that "prompt", and then "promptly" got my teeth kicked in for opening my mouth.  Was trying to further the conversation not become the punching bag in a game of "how MMM are you".

your response was one of "you cant understand my life,  we have it all figured out" 

i disagree that saving that little on an income that large fits the statement made above.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: index on June 19, 2017, 01:44:05 PM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.
They just have no time to reply because fire is approaching so fast ;)

With 100k gross income i would save about 70% net easily. I would fire in 3 years or so.
Sadly i am way more down (60k € gross) but currently feed a family of four, so still doing great in my opinion.

I always have to pipe up when I see comments that are "If I made XYZ, I could save ABC"... the truth is many people who make a lot of money live in HCOLA. I moved to a HCOLA and increased my salary by over 50k, but I don't get an extra 50k worth of savings because of the extra expenses associated along with living in that area to make that salary.  My savings 'rate' is about the same, I just make more. So it ends up being a win overall, but it's not like a smoking gun.

we're around 160k-170k gross income and invest around 110k+ annually -  always trying to squeeze more out. variance is due to my bonus structure at work.  more bonus more money into savings. if you were to count house equity gain that savings goes up more but its not something i count.

I'm going to call BS on this. Let's say you make 170k and can both contribute the max (36k) to pretax 401k's and 6.7k to an HSA; So your Taxable income is 127k. In Missouri you pay about 37.5k in taxes.

So of your 170k you are working with 132.5k after taxes and saving 110k which means you are living off 22.5k?

You have a mortgage for a "big house", a boat, and long commute by car. Housing expenses on say 150K for a large house in rural MO is 9k per year. Are you are not counting income from side gigs, gifts, or employer matching? Maybe you are getting a lot of "freebies" you are not counting like MMM and his 30k renovation, new car, or vacations?

I am genuinely interested how you can live a "six figure" lifestyle for something around 15k after housing expenses.   

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: boarder42 on June 19, 2017, 01:53:58 PM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.
They just have no time to reply because fire is approaching so fast ;)

With 100k gross income i would save about 70% net easily. I would fire in 3 years or so.
Sadly i am way more down (60k € gross) but currently feed a family of four, so still doing great in my opinion.

I always have to pipe up when I see comments that are "If I made XYZ, I could save ABC"... the truth is many people who make a lot of money live in HCOLA. I moved to a HCOLA and increased my salary by over 50k, but I don't get an extra 50k worth of savings because of the extra expenses associated along with living in that area to make that salary.  My savings 'rate' is about the same, I just make more. So it ends up being a win overall, but it's not like a smoking gun.

we're around 160k-170k gross income and invest around 110k+ annually -  always trying to squeeze more out. variance is due to my bonus structure at work.  more bonus more money into savings. if you were to count house equity gain that savings goes up more but its not something i count.

I'm going to call BS on this. Let's say you make 170k and can both contribute the max (36k) to pretax 401k's and 6.7k to an HSA; So your Taxable income is 127k. In Missouri you pay about 37.5k in taxes.

So of your 170k you are working with 132.5k after taxes and saving 110k which means you are living off 22.5k?

You have a mortgage for a "big house", a boat, and long commute by car. Housing expenses on say 150K for a large house in rural MO is 9k per year. Are you are not counting income from side gigs, gifts, or employer matching? Maybe you are getting a lot of "freebies" you are not counting like MMM and his 30k renovation, new car, or vacations?

I am genuinely interested how you can live a "six figure" lifestyle for something around 15k after housing expenses.

company matches and ESOP contributions count into that 170k number and these arent taxable either.  that tax assumption seems to be way off as well.  with deduction etc. our taxable income is down to around 85k and our taxes are around 13k federal and 5k state. 
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: index on June 19, 2017, 02:42:54 PM
we're around 160k-170k gross income and invest around 110k+ annually -  always trying to squeeze more out. variance is due to my bonus structure at work.  more bonus more money into savings. if you were to count house equity gain that savings goes up more but its not something i count.

I'm going to call BS on this. Let's say you make 170k and can both contribute the max (36k) to pretax 401k's and 6.7k to an HSA; So your Taxable income is 127k. In Missouri you pay about 37.5k in taxes.

So of your 170k you are working with 132.5k after taxes and saving 110k which means you are living off 22.5k?

You have a mortgage for a "big house", a boat, and long commute by car. Housing expenses on say 150K for a large house in rural MO is 9k per year. Are you are not counting income from side gigs, gifts, or employer matching? Maybe you are getting a lot of "freebies" you are not counting like MMM and his 30k renovation, new car, or vacations?

I am genuinely interested how you can live a "six figure" lifestyle for something around 15k after housing expenses.

company matches and ESOP contributions count into that 170k number and these arent taxable either.  that tax assumption seems to be way off as well.  with deduction etc. our taxable income is down to around 85k and our taxes are around 13k federal and 5k state.

I see. This is why there needs to be more clarity when people are posting savings rates. So your grossing about 127.5k if your taxable is 85k  and you are putting away 36k in 401k's and 6.6k into an HSA. ESOP and Matching is around 40k. So pretax is ~83k and post tax is about ~27k which means you are spending ~40k.

You are putting away ~70k/yr your of your paycheck which is awesome - 55% of gross but you are counting a lot of employer matching and gifts which other posters may exclude.

posts like these make me want to start blogs about optimizing.  if i were to just list out my lifestyle everyone here would say No F'n way you're saving 67% of around 170k gross on that but yes ... yes we are.


Spending ~40k which is a lot by MMM standards, and you are beating up on caracarn for saving 23% of his gross 200k family income. He is saving 50k for college + 46k for retirement (where his 23% comes from) + 49k in taxes (TN) and spending 55K/yr. So about ~15k more than you spend and is feeding, housing, and transporting 6 more people. To put it another way - He spends $6900 per person per year and you spend 20k per person per year. Who is more frugal?   
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: prognastat on June 19, 2017, 03:36:41 PM
Spending ~40k which is a lot by MMM standards, and you are beating up on caracarn for saving 23% of his gross 200k family income. He is saving 50k for college + 46k for retirement (where his 23% comes from) + 49k in taxes (TN) and spending 55K/yr. So about ~15k more than you spend and is feeding, housing, and transporting 6 more people. To put it another way - He spends $6900 per person per year and you spend 20k per person per year. Who is more frugal?   

$40k a year isn't a lot by MMM standards if a mortgage is included in that. If MMM was carrying a mortgage on his house he would actually be somewhere around 45-50k a year simply by adding the mortgage to his 25k mortgage free spending.

Also the college money isn't savings since it is earmarked for college thus spending, and not going towards funding their stache so this doesn't really count the same way and it's disingenuous to act as if it is simply savings.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: index on June 19, 2017, 04:29:07 PM
Spending ~40k which is a lot by MMM standards, and you are beating up on caracarn for saving 23% of his gross 200k family income. He is saving 50k for college + 46k for retirement (where his 23% comes from) + 49k in taxes (TN) and spending 55K/yr. So about ~15k more than you spend and is feeding, housing, and transporting 6 more people. To put it another way - He spends $6900 per person per year and you spend 20k per person per year. Who is more frugal?   

$40k a year isn't a lot by MMM standards if a mortgage is included in that. If MMM was carrying a mortgage on his house he would actually be somewhere around 45-50k a year simply by adding the mortgage to his 25k mortgage free spending.

Also the college money isn't savings since it is earmarked for college thus spending, and not going towards funding their stache so this doesn't really count the same way and it's disingenuous to act as if it is simply savings.

True, the point is border is spending 20k per year per person while caracarin is spending less than 7k per person. Border is belittling other posters because he sees his lavish lifestyle with a big house, boat, and Hawaiian vacations paid for with 40k of spending and can't see the difference between some one providing day to day living expenses for 8 people of 55k in yearly spending. I'm sure border is living considerably more lavishly than caracarin, but is attacking him as not belonging on the site because he has made helping his 6 kids with college a priority. If you would like to face punch him for paying for college go ahead, but don't assume he just has a day to day spending problem, fancy car, boat, and goes on wild vacations and is just making excuses. 55k for a mortgage, food, ckothing, and transportation for 8 people sounds pretty badass.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: doublethinkmoney on June 19, 2017, 05:53:35 PM
I think some folks confuse MMM with Jesus or someone. I suspect neither MMM nor Jesus aimed to be Jesus. They were folks doing their thing, sharing some good stuff that worked for them, and then other people went all Life of Brian on them.

I think they both encourage -and hope to inspire- others to live true to one's own values, not to theirs. Thus, every person being true to their deepest values and dreams, if not hurting others/the earth, is doing it right.
Amen. I don't see MMM spending his time trolling people on this form about their savings rate. That's not the point of the blog or the forum.

He has better things to do.


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Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Classical_Liberal on June 19, 2017, 06:47:28 PM
I think some folks confuse MMM with Jesus or someone. I suspect neither MMM nor Jesus aimed to be Jesus.

^This really made me laugh!

re The debate at hand. I still agree with boarder.  This forum is one where people who spend efficiently and below average  meet and discuss.  Not only that, we regularly challenge each other.  We challenge about resource usage, spending, charity, personal ideals of social and political importance.  No matter incomes, no matter savings rate, any comment is open for intelligent criticism.  If you don't like it, don't make comments.

That being said, obviously each person is a special snow flake with unique circumstances and that's fine.   However, be prepared to defend a position that is obviously, at first glance, outside of optimized.  Not even knowing how to calculate your own savings rate is not prepared, sorry.

As boarder has stated over and over, if someone is here to simply reaffirm he/she is "doing great" because she/he spends less than his/her neighbors, then you are in the wrong place.  If someone is here to learn how to do better than a low savings rate with high income, even in HCOL, then post a case study and learn.  Otherwise it is YOU who is trolling the actual core of this forum.

Everyone here can do better, me, boarder 42, everyone. The difference is in attitude.  Should I learn to do better or make excuses about why I can't, both take about the same amount of energy. Choose wisely.

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Classical_Liberal on June 19, 2017, 06:59:11 PM
While I appreciate the OPs poll I do think saving and spending rates between people of equal incomes are just too different to compare.

Difficult to compare is true, but that should not be an excuse for one to say "My situation is different so I need three BMW's".

Those calculators I posted up thread were really an attempt to show spending on "equal ground" for family size and location.  Again, those are not perfect.  FIRE cash flow accounting is difficult.  Should a paid off home have imputed rent,  annual maintenance/tax cost only,  if I rent a room should it be an appreciating asset, ect?

The issue is more, is your resource usage optimized or are you super-wasteful?  Are the cash flows optimized for your situation?

IOW do I, classical liberal, live in a 2000 sq foot home in a HCOL area by myself?  If so, I'm being wasteful, no matter my income or SR, I'm not optimized.  If I post this information and don't get jumped on, then the forum has lost its usefulness.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: afuera on June 20, 2017, 06:25:46 AM
we're around 160k-170k gross income and invest around 110k+ annually -  always trying to squeeze more out. variance is due to my bonus structure at work.  more bonus more money into savings. if you were to count house equity gain that savings goes up more but its not something i count.

I'm going to call BS on this. Let's say you make 170k and can both contribute the max (36k) to pretax 401k's and 6.7k to an HSA; So your Taxable income is 127k. In Missouri you pay about 37.5k in taxes.

So of your 170k you are working with 132.5k after taxes and saving 110k which means you are living off 22.5k?

You have a mortgage for a "big house", a boat, and long commute by car. Housing expenses on say 150K for a large house in rural MO is 9k per year. Are you are not counting income from side gigs, gifts, or employer matching? Maybe you are getting a lot of "freebies" you are not counting like MMM and his 30k renovation, new car, or vacations?

I am genuinely interested how you can live a "six figure" lifestyle for something around 15k after housing expenses.

company matches and ESOP contributions count into that 170k number and these arent taxable either.  that tax assumption seems to be way off as well.  with deduction etc. our taxable income is down to around 85k and our taxes are around 13k federal and 5k state.

I see. This is why there needs to be more clarity when people are posting savings rates. So your grossing about 127.5k if your taxable is 85k  and you are putting away 36k in 401k's and 6.6k into an HSA. ESOP and Matching is around 40k. So pretax is ~83k and post tax is about ~27k which means you are spending ~40k.

You are putting away ~70k/yr your of your paycheck which is awesome - 55% of gross but you are counting a lot of employer matching and gifts which other posters may exclude.

posts like these make me want to start blogs about optimizing.  if i were to just list out my lifestyle everyone here would say No F'n way you're saving 67% of around 170k gross on that but yes ... yes we are.


Spending ~40k which is a lot by MMM standards, and you are beating up on caracarn for saving 23% of his gross 200k family income. He is saving 50k for college + 46k for retirement (where his 23% comes from) + 49k in taxes (TN) and spending 55K/yr. So about ~15k more than you spend and is feeding, housing, and transporting 6 more people. To put it another way - He spends $6900 per person per year and you spend 20k per person per year. Who is more frugal?   
+1.  Index, great post and analysis.

My situation is similar to boarder42's close to 190K income pre-tax and we save anywhere between 60-75% depending on the month.  Our only fixed expenses are our house (and associated bills/utilities), gas, and food.  Everything else we spend is completely superfluous and I fully admit we are living luxurious life. 
I'm know that our savings rate would be much, much lower with childcare, HCOL (we live in TX, very affordable housing), and medical costs (HDHP completely covered by employer and both Hubs and I are blessed to be young and healthy). 
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 20, 2017, 06:32:37 AM
I guess I still feel like on some level savings rates should be comparable....if you live in a HCOL area vs  LCOL your salary usually reflects that to some extent. While it's not apples to apples I think in a certain income range if you're actively trying to save money and FIRE 50% shouldn't be too difficult. Now kids are where the big wrench can be thrown in and I think then it becomes harder to compare.

I'm actually all for the face-punches to some extent. I started coming on this forum expecting to get way more face punches then I did and I'm a person who can benefit from that. Now on the other hand if you criticize someone but then they justify why they are doing it and it's somewhat reasonable (not talking about justifying 3 BMWs here but something like choosing the right daycare for their child) then at some point the conversation needs to move on because both sides are going to walk away knowing in their mind they are doing the best thing they can for their situation. I also think it's all context - for example I know I could spend less on travel each year but the truth is I would rather work an extra year or two to be able to have those experiences in life. I don't care how much you criticize my traveling I know it's not personally worth it to me to give it up. Now this forum has been helpful in mentioning travel hacking and finding ways to save which I appreciate! But if someone decides they are fine working extra to afford anything I think that's their personal choice - finding ways to achieve the same goal on less money is the perk of this forum to me.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on June 20, 2017, 07:06:53 AM
Quote
Now kids are where the big wrench can be thrown in and I think then it becomes harder to compare.

Would it work to simply do a "per household member" rate, as index explored? e.g., Divide household income by number of people supported on it, then divide savings by same number?
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 20, 2017, 07:27:04 AM
Quote
Now kids are where the big wrench can be thrown in and I think then it becomes harder to compare.

Would it work to simply do a "per household member" rate, as index explored? e.g., Divide household income by number of people supported on it, then divide savings by same number?

I think "per household member" gets closer to the target but it still might not capture certain expenses perfectly. For example, lets say you have 5kids in the midwest - your housing costs may not actually be all that much higher than a DINK couple who wanted to purchase a home with the plan of having kids a few years. Although the DINK couple does not need a 3bedroom house right now when I was looking for houses it's hard to find 1 or 2 bedroom houses. Even utilities shouldn't increase too much for more people - you still need to pay for heating in the winter no matter how many people live in it. So for the housing line item we're spending way more per person. Another area would be groceries - buying food in bulk can save you tons of money (as a family of 5 growing up I saw this first hand) but now as a 2-person household I can't exactly replicate that even though I buy what I can in bulk. Although maybe factoring in daycare costs/child expenses that the 2-person household would make it a wash?
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on June 20, 2017, 07:57:58 AM
Though, housing is my favourite hack :)
Kid and me paid $500-$650 (all told, for the two of us combined) in two of the world's most expensive housing (rent or own) markets. So, I think even housing can well reflect whether we're effectively slashing costs or can further optimize.

A family of six with a bigger place than we had? Absolutely. And that would be addressed via a PP rate.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: index on June 20, 2017, 09:22:52 AM
I think the big take away from all this is you really have to focus on spending and not the savings rate when comparing yourself to others on the forum. I started another thread about how subjective and different savings rate is from on poster to another depending on how they calculate it. Some people are saying they have a 75% savings rate on 200k which would be impossible if that was actually 200k of W2 income as they would have to be paying at least 25% in taxes. I was super impressed by Border's 69% reported savings rate on 170k until I realized he is counting ~40K tax free matching/stock options as gross income. Which is fine if that is how he chooses to compute his SR, but is not comparable to someone who actually makes 170k in W2 income.   

State taxes are a huge too, if you make 200k and put away 36k into your 401k your effective tax rate is 37% in CA, 34% in CO, or 30% in TN. On the spending side, if this 200k high earning couple reported a 50% SR in CA they are spending 26k/yr; in TN they are spending 40k/yr. The TN couple spends 50%+ more per year than the CA couple!

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: YoungGranny on June 20, 2017, 09:36:15 AM
I think the big take away from all this is you really have to focus on spending and not the savings rate when comparing yourself to others on the forum. I started another thread about how subjective and different savings rate is from on poster to another depending on how they calculate it. Some people are saying they have a 75% savings rate on 200k which would be impossible if that was actually 200k of W2 income as they would have to be paying at least 25% in taxes. I was super impressed by Border's 69% reported savings rate on 170k until I realized he is counting ~40K tax free matching/stock options as gross income. Which is fine if that is how he chooses to compute his SR, but is not comparable to someone who actually makes 170k in W2 income.   

State taxes are a huge too, if you make 200k and put away 36k into your 401k your effective tax rate is 37% in CA, 34% in CO, or 30% in TN. On the spending side, if this 200k high earning couple reported a 50% SR in CA they are spending 26k/yr; in TN they are spending 40k/yr. The TN couple spends 50%+ more per year than the CA couple!

Ah! Very good points indeed! Living in my small mid-west bubble has definitely skewed my view of things. This post in general has been very informative for me and I've learned a heck of a lot! Which I think we can all agree is one of the main purposes of this forum: learning :).  I do think focusing on spending is the right avenue but focusing on increasing savings as an individual whether that's a dollar amount or a percentage is always good too.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: index on June 20, 2017, 09:54:52 AM
If we want a real comparison of forum members, we need to focus on spending not savings rate.

The location along with the number of people per household needs to be considered.

For location:
 Look up your location (or similar location) here https://www.infoplease.com/business-finance/us-economy-and-federal-budget/cost-living-index-selected-us-cities1 (https://www.infoplease.com/business-finance/us-economy-and-federal-budget/cost-living-index-selected-us-cities1). Take your spending divided by the "100% composite index" as a percentage.

Example: if you spend 40k/yr and live in Albany, GA take 40k/.901 =  44.4k.

No. of household members:
There are efficiencies to living and sharing finances with others. A single person and a couple can share the same apartment. I would propose counting the first person as - 1, a couple as 1.5, the first child as 0.5 and each additional child as 0.25.

Example:

Single - 1
Couple -1.5
Couple w/ 1 - 2
Couple w/ 2 - 2.25
Couple w/ 6 - 3.25

Take the location adjusted spending divided by No. of people in the household factor.

Examples:

Couple spending 40k in Los Angeles -> Location factor - 40k/1.36 = 29.4k; household factor - 1.5
Their spending index is 29.4k/1.5 = 19.6k

Couple w/ 6 kids in Nashville TN spending 55k -> Location factor - 55k/.889 = 62k; household factor - 3.25
Their spending index is 62k/3.25 = 19k
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Prairie Stash on June 20, 2017, 10:10:44 AM
If we want a real comparison of forum members, we need to focus on spending not savings rate.

The location along with the number of people per household needs to be considered.

For location:
 Look up your location (or similar location) here https://www.infoplease.com/business-finance/us-economy-and-federal-budget/cost-living-index-selected-us-cities1 (https://www.infoplease.com/business-finance/us-economy-and-federal-budget/cost-living-index-selected-us-cities1). Take your spending divided by the "100% composite index" as a percentage.

Example: if you spend 40k/yr and live in Albany, GA take 40k/.901 =  44.4k.

No. of household members:
There are efficiencies to living and sharing finances with others. A single person and a couple can share the same apartment. I would propose counting the first person as - 1, a couple as 1.5, the first child as 0.5 and each additional child as 0.25.

Example:

Single - 1
Couple -1.5
Couple w/ 1 - 2
Couple w/ 2 - 2.25
Couple w/ 6 - 3.25

Take the location adjusted spending divided by No. of people in the household factor.

Examples:

Couple spending 40k in Los Angeles -> Location factor - 40k/1.36 = 29.4k; household factor - 1.5
Their spending index is 29.4k/1.5 = 19.6k

Couple w/ 6 kids in Nashville TN spending 55k -> Location factor - 55k/.889 = 62k; household factor - 3.25
Their spending index is 62k/3.25 = 19k
USDA publishes statistics that confirm your thoughts. Each additional child is cheaper to raise than the first child; as evidenced by compiling statistics on what people actually spend.

However, local wages generally reflect local expenses. In areas with high local expenses people tend to make more, they need to in order to pay the bills or they quickly become homeless. In areas with low expenses people make less. In areas that have high wages and low expenses you generally see rapidly increasing costs, the opposite is also true. In areas where this isn't true there are concerns about the ongoing success; in my local area market corrections took us from a LCOL to a mid cost rapidly when wages started increasing rapidly. The local conditions brought about huge housing gains, eventually though it all averaged out and people's lives reverted to normal. If you had the money, which some did, people made small fortunes from recognizing what happens when wages are out of sync with expenses for an area.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: SwordGuy on June 20, 2017, 10:27:10 AM
...I had a VERY nice house in the midwest for $400k, but you literally can NOT buy a house in Seattle for $400 k. Condemed lots costs more than 400k. Easy come easy go.

Really?

Why is it when I go to Zillow.com and type in a max sale price for a 2 bedroom house in the Seattle area, the screen fills up with dots for houses for sale.  So many, in fact, that zillow puts up a message saying the search has been limited to only 500 results.

Statements like that are why folks who say one CANT' do (whatever) get hammered really hard on these forums.   Because one often CAN, one simply choose not to.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 20, 2017, 10:36:55 AM
...I had a VERY nice house in the midwest for $400k, but you literally can NOT buy a house in Seattle for $400 k. Condemed lots costs more than 400k. Easy come easy go.

Really?

Why is it when I go to Zillow.com and type in a max sale price for a 2 bedroom house in the Seattle area, the screen fills up with dots for houses for sale.  So many, in fact, that zillow puts up a message saying the search has been limited to only 500 results.

Statements like that are why folks who say one CANT' do (whatever) get hammered really hard on these forums.   Because one often CAN, one simply choose not to.

I said HOUSE. Not condo. Try again. Again, people thinking they know better than people who ACTUALLY LIVE here is just laughable. There's actually a 2 bedroom house up the street from where I live for sale. It's a nice house, but only 2 bedroom again. It's asking price is for $730k, and usually houses sell for 50-200k over asking here.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 20, 2017, 10:41:21 AM
...I had a VERY nice house in the midwest for $400k, but you literally can NOT buy a house in Seattle for $400 k. Condemed lots costs more than 400k. Easy come easy go.

Really?

Why is it when I go to Zillow.com and type in a max sale price for a 2 bedroom house in the Seattle area, the screen fills up with dots for houses for sale.  So many, in fact, that zillow puts up a message saying the search has been limited to only 500 results.

Statements like that are why folks who say one CANT' do (whatever) get hammered really hard on these forums.   Because one often CAN, one simply choose not to.
[/quote]

Here's the picture of 500k max price free standing 2 bedroom houses in Seattle proper in the 3 zip codes around me. The one that's listed here is actually a mistake and the zip code is wrong and it belongs in another state (Idaho). One is next to the railroad tracks. Notice the one I'm zooming in on with the LOVELY boarded up windows... I'm sure that place is move in ready. Thanks for playing.


http://imgur.com/a/Zg4lK

I can't make the link work so you'll have to actually click on it.




Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Prairie Stash on June 20, 2017, 11:14:43 AM
Here's an example:

Living in LCOLA:
salary 125 k
daycare 200/week (10k/yr)
house cost: 350k (very nice house)
property tax: 3000/year

Living in HCOLA
salary 200k
daycare 700/week (36k/yr)
house cost: 750k (2 bedroom, needs work)
property tax: 10k/year

So while one makes 75k a year more, a lot of it goes to costs that are difficult to control (daycare, property tax, etc). In the long run, it's better to make more money as raises equate with more money, contributions to retirement funds if a % of salary are more, etc. However, one's overall savings 'rate' might be similar.
Thank you for posting this. There are many diverging viewpoints here but the Bureau of Labour and Standards (BLS) will back this up. HCOL areas people tend to make and spend more so the SR can be the same % as a LCOL area. Median Income for Seattle is over $30/hour, expenses are also higher. The same phenomenon plays out with differing countries, people might make $10k and have a very fine life in other countries, in the USA its below poverty.

As a Canadian my wage in USD is lower but in CDN terms is quite nice. its all relative to where you spend the money. Its neither excusing nor defending a low SR, its just how wages and expenses  are correlated. The average person is comfortable spending all their pay, local expenses usually reflect how much people have in their wallets.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Lmoot on June 20, 2017, 11:22:29 AM
I think some folks confuse MMM with Jesus or someone. I suspect neither MMM nor Jesus aimed to be Jesus.

^This really made me laugh!

re The debate at hand. I still agree with boarder.  This forum is one where people who spend efficiently and below average  meet and discuss.  Not only that, we regularly challenge each other.  We challenge about resource usage, spending, charity, personal ideals of social and political importance.  No matter incomes, no matter savings rate, any comment is open for intelligent criticism.  If you don't like it, don't make comments.

That being said, obviously each person is a special snow flake with unique circumstances and that's fine.   However, be prepared to defend a position that is obviously, at first glance, outside of optimized.  Not even knowing how to calculate your own savings rate is not prepared, sorry.

As boarder has stated over and over, if someone is here to simply reaffirm he/she is "doing great" because she/he spends less than his/her neighbors, then you are in the wrong place.  If someone is here to learn how to do better than a low savings rate with high income, even in HCOL, then post a case study and learn.  Otherwise it is YOU who is trolling the actual core of this forum.

Everyone here can do better, me, boarder 42, everyone. The difference is in attitude.  Should I learn to do better or make excuses about why I can't, both take about the same amount of energy. Choose wisely.

If everyone here is supposed to be a self-admitted financial screwup, then who the heck isupposed to be doing all of this lecturing and counseling? D'oh! Silly me for thinking this was supposed to be community of like-minded folks taking and giving ideas to help each other reach their respective goals. Case studies might be one aspect of the forum, but there is a reason why there is a segregated area of the forum for them. Apparently the plebe's are not expected to think for themselves, but rather ought to subject themselves to judgement of the court, and provide fodder to feed the ego and provide schadenfreude for the hardcore mustachians to use as punching bags because they could never get away with their obtrusive opinions IRL without getting face punched in real life. Got it.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: PoutineLover on June 20, 2017, 11:25:44 AM
I thought this forum was about striving to do better, reducing expenses and impacts on the environment, and optimizing expenses to meet one's goals. Not about bashing each other and using very limited information to judge each other. Yes, if someone does a case study they are obviously looking for help and are asking for face punches. But this poll was literally asking savings rate range for income range and that's not enough info to know if someone is mustachian or not, especially when there's not a single standard for how to calculate SR (long term vs short term savings, counting employer match, benefits, mortgage, housing, etc.). Not everyone can save >50%. Not everyone wants to retire at 35. Some people have expensive obligations (supporting disabled or young dependents for example). Most of us can do better. All of us who are trying are welcome here, even if they don't meet some arbitrary standard for mustachianism imposed by some anonymous forum member.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: force majeure on June 20, 2017, 12:50:31 PM
I am at savings rate of 120% of salary.
Bit of an experiment really - declared myself FI in JAN last year and decided to do a dry run, living off part of my passive income.
Sure its a severe case of OMY, but I dont give a f*ck.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on June 20, 2017, 01:20:02 PM
Quote
If you had the money, which some did, people made small fortunes from recognizing what happens when wages are out of sync with expenses for an area.

Prairie Stash, as an aside, can you please tell me more about this? I'm in one of those areas where wages for many no longer touch basic living (shelter) costs, such that lots of "regular" people are becoming homeless. How were some folks making money in these scenarios, pre-adjustment?
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: SwordGuy on June 20, 2017, 03:34:50 PM
Apparently my link didn't paste into my last post, so here it is again:

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/house,condo,townhouse_type/2-_beds/1-_baths/0-400000_price/0-1468_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/47.762638,-121.951332,47.463147,-122.738228_rect/10_zm/ (https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/house,condo,townhouse_type/2-_beds/1-_baths/0-400000_price/0-1468_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/47.762638,-121.951332,47.463147,-122.738228_rect/10_zm/)

Well over 500 results in the Seattle area under $400,000.

Now, some will be condos or townhomes, some will be single family dwellings.  Some will be foreclosed and actively on the market, others will be foreclosed and you have to contact the bank to buy them.  Some will be bogus due to them being auctions or mis-coded rentals.

I use this website to find likely properties in my market and, although not perfect, it's good enough to find bargains.

But a spot check on the results shows some nice looking properties below $400,000.

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: SwordGuy on June 20, 2017, 04:49:02 PM
...I had a VERY nice house in the midwest for $400k, but you literally can NOT buy a house in Seattle for $400 k. Condemed lots costs more than 400k. Easy come easy go.


Here's the picture of 500k max price free standing 2 bedroom houses in Seattle proper in the 3 zip codes around me. The one that's listed here is actually a mistake and the zip code is wrong and it belongs in another state (Idaho). One is next to the railroad tracks. Notice the one I'm zooming in on with the LOVELY boarded up windows... I'm sure that place is move in ready. Thanks for playing.


http://imgur.com/a/Zg4lK

I can't make the link work so you'll have to actually click on it.

Well, you said it was LITERALLY impossible to do so, but you've shown a picture that proves it can be done.   

Now you're changing the goal posts.  Move in ready was not in your statement, nor was "in only 3 zip codes".

Here's a link to a house under $400,000 that looks to be move-in  ready.

But I see plenty of nice looking single family dwellings for sale in Seattle for less than $400,000 that are move-in ready.   And, frankly, it only takes one to prove that your statement  that it's LITERALLY impossible to do so as an incorrect one.

So, here's one that definitely looks move-in ready:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7742-35th-Ave-SW-Seattle-WA-98126/48769290_zpid/
 (https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7742-35th-Ave-SW-Seattle-WA-98126/48769290_zpid/)

Perhaps a review of this MMM article would be in order?

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/26/cure-yourself-of-tiny-details-exaggeration-syndrome/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/26/cure-yourself-of-tiny-details-exaggeration-syndrome/)
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: SwordGuy on June 20, 2017, 06:01:30 PM

"Young man, success comes in can,
failure comes in can't."

Admiral Grace Hopper to a young friend of mine in 1978.


It was damn good advice, and it's good to keep it in mind when saying "It's not possible to ..."

Instead, turn it into a question, "How could it be possible for me to ...?" or "Where could I go to learn more about ... so that I might learn how it might be possible to ...?"

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: CorpRaider on June 21, 2017, 06:48:21 AM
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.

I'm in this group.  I'm at 51% to 78% depending on if I include my forced savings in pension/annuity and SS and/or student loan payments.  Spouse not onboard with the FIRE thing so none of her (modest) savings are included.  We are having a kid later this year so the challenge will be increased.  Daycare alone will present a hurdle. 
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: index on June 21, 2017, 09:13:15 AM
we're around 160k-170k gross income and invest around 110k+ annually -  always trying to squeeze more out. variance is due to my bonus structure at work.  more bonus more money into savings. if you were to count house equity gain that savings goes up more but its not something i count.

I'm going to call BS on this. Let's say you make 170k and can both contribute the max (36k) to pretax 401k's and 6.7k to an HSA; So your Taxable income is 127k. In Missouri you pay about 37.5k in taxes.

So of your 170k you are working with 132.5k after taxes and saving 110k which means you are living off 22.5k?

You have a mortgage for a "big house", a boat, and long commute by car. Housing expenses on say 150K for a large house in rural MO is 9k per year. Are you are not counting income from side gigs, gifts, or employer matching? Maybe you are getting a lot of "freebies" you are not counting like MMM and his 30k renovation, new car, or vacations?

I am genuinely interested how you can live a "six figure" lifestyle for something around 15k after housing expenses.

company matches and ESOP contributions count into that 170k number and these arent taxable either.  that tax assumption seems to be way off as well.  with deduction etc. our taxable income is down to around 85k and our taxes are around 13k federal and 5k state.

posts like these make me want to start blogs about optimizing.  if i were to just list out my lifestyle everyone here would say No F'n way you're saving 67% of around 170k gross on that but yes ... yes we are.


I don't want to harp on this, but Border was so free with the face punching earlier in the thread. I was reading another thread (race from 1MM to 2MM) and just randomly saw this:

this is the right place.  my number is around 2MM we spend around 50-60k plus our mortgage.  but we wont hit 1MM til 2020 so it will be awhile before we're here.

Dude. Your numbers don't add up:

55k (spending) + 110k+ Savings + 18K Taxes = 183k + mortgage for a big house on a lake
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 21, 2017, 09:24:27 AM
Apparently my link didn't paste into my last post, so here it is again:

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/house,condo,townhouse_type/2-_beds/1-_baths/0-400000_price/0-1468_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/47.762638,-121.951332,47.463147,-122.738228_rect/10_zm/ (https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/house,condo,townhouse_type/2-_beds/1-_baths/0-400000_price/0-1468_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/47.762638,-121.951332,47.463147,-122.738228_rect/10_zm/)

Well over 500 results in the Seattle area under $400,000.

Now, some will be condos or townhomes, some will be single family dwellings.  Some will be foreclosed and actively on the market, others will be foreclosed and you have to contact the bank to buy them.  Some will be bogus due to them being auctions or mis-coded rentals.

I use this website to find likely properties in my market and, although not perfect, it's good enough to find bargains.

But a spot check on the results shows some nice looking properties below $400,000.

95% of those properties aren't actually in Seattle. That big swath of empty with 2 foreclosures in it - that is Seattle. Anything across water is a 1hr+ commute. I said Seattle. You're showing me 100 square miles. Did you look at the link I posted of Seattle proper?
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 21, 2017, 09:25:59 AM



Perhaps a review of this MMM article would be in order?

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/26/cure-yourself-of-tiny-details-exaggeration-syndrome/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/26/cure-yourself-of-tiny-details-exaggeration-syndrome/)


That is in west Seattle, not Seattle proper.  You don't know the area, and it's showing. It's fine. Continue on.
Did you look at the link I posted of the 3 zip codes nearest me with 500k? Would you like to retort on that? Or continue googling areas no where near Seattle proper?
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: honeybbq on June 21, 2017, 09:29:38 AM
Here you go, sword. Here's a charmer in WEST seattle for $427k. Can't wait to move my family in there.
"A West Seattle house so dilapidated that potential buyers weren’t allowed to go inside recently sold for $427,000, more than twice the listing price."

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/this-mold-house-decaying-home-too-dangerous-to-enter-sparks-insane-bidding/


(http://static.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/1dc20318-42f3-11e6-baf5-3c1e1b76058b-640x531.jpg)
(http://static.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/f5dcd310-42e2-11e6-baf5-3c1e1b76058b-640x853.jpg)

Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: SustainableStache on June 21, 2017, 10:02:33 AM
My wife and I make $117,000 combined and we save 30% of our net income. This is with a $3,112 monthly bill for two toddlers in day care. Once they're in the public elementary school, our savings rate will hit 50%.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: mizzourah2006 on June 21, 2017, 11:07:27 AM
We are in the group of people making ~$150k saving right around 50%, but a little under. This year we paid off our second car and with that payment we are on pace to spend about $65k. If you count just monthly recurring expenses we are closer to $52-$53k in expenses, but paying a lump sum of cash for a car still counts as an expense in my book. Also, another expense that has pushed ours up over the past few years is hospital bills. 2 years ago was a birth, last year the little one had RSV, which cost us $5.5k, etc. I'd really love to know how to optimize that :) We are on pace to save $60k this year in retirement and investments and if you count actual savings accounts and college savings we are going to be closer to $70k. Our major expenses are daycare ($9.2k) and PITI ($12.75k). So of our monthly expenses (I count every expense that happens in the month) we are looking at those 2 accounting for 41% of our yearly expenses if you don't count paying for the car and 34% if you do count the car cost.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: afuera on June 21, 2017, 02:13:45 PM
we're around 160k-170k gross income and invest around 110k+ annually -  always trying to squeeze more out. variance is due to my bonus structure at work.  more bonus more money into savings. if you were to count house equity gain that savings goes up more but its not something i count.

I'm going to call BS on this. Let's say you make 170k and can both contribute the max (36k) to pretax 401k's and 6.7k to an HSA; So your Taxable income is 127k. In Missouri you pay about 37.5k in taxes.

So of your 170k you are working with 132.5k after taxes and saving 110k which means you are living off 22.5k?

You have a mortgage for a "big house", a boat, and long commute by car. Housing expenses on say 150K for a large house in rural MO is 9k per year. Are you are not counting income from side gigs, gifts, or employer matching? Maybe you are getting a lot of "freebies" you are not counting like MMM and his 30k renovation, new car, or vacations?

I am genuinely interested how you can live a "six figure" lifestyle for something around 15k after housing expenses.

company matches and ESOP contributions count into that 170k number and these arent taxable either.  that tax assumption seems to be way off as well.  with deduction etc. our taxable income is down to around 85k and our taxes are around 13k federal and 5k state.

posts like these make me want to start blogs about optimizing.  if i were to just list out my lifestyle everyone here would say No F'n way you're saving 67% of around 170k gross on that but yes ... yes we are.


I don't want to harp on this, but Border was so free with the face punching earlier in the thread. I was reading another thread (race from 1MM to 2MM) and just randomly saw this:

this is the right place.  my number is around 2MM we spend around 50-60k plus our mortgage.  but we wont hit 1MM til 2020 so it will be awhile before we're here.

Dude. Your numbers don't add up:

55k (spending) + 110k+ Savings + 18K Taxes = 183k + mortgage for a big house on a lake

He hasn't posted in this thread since you originally did the math on his numbers.  I guess he is comfortable ridiculing others for their spending but once someone starts digging into his spending he clams up.  hmm.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: gggggg on June 21, 2017, 02:20:41 PM
65k, I save about 55% or so of gross.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Prairie Stash on June 21, 2017, 02:47:13 PM
Quote
If you had the money, which some did, people made small fortunes from recognizing what happens when wages are out of sync with expenses for an area.

Prairie Stash, as an aside, can you please tell me more about this? I'm in one of those areas where wages for many no longer touch basic living (shelter) costs, such that lots of "regular" people are becoming homeless. How were some folks making money in these scenarios, pre-adjustment?
The easiest is when wages exceed housing costs; a sign to buy real estate. Take ARS as an example, he was picking up houses cheap because wages in his area remained constant (Las Vegas) but housing plummeted. Then when things revert to normal you're sitting on a house worth an average amount that you purchased at a discount. Detroit, not so much, since wages and houses plummeted at the same time. The key difference is identifying areas where the wages stayed strong, in Detroit too many people lost work and that wasn't good for anyone.

In your scenario, housing exceeding wages. Historically that's a time to sell your house unless you can identify actual reasons why its sustainable (Vancouver has no room for growth due to geography, as does San Francisco, there are local factors at play). The homeless didn't own houses before hand, they will remain poor. The working poor who had houses can profit if they sell and move, if they don't sell and move that's their personal decision. Its not free money, there are choices that need to be made. In Canada this is a hot button topic in Vancouver among baby boomers, they bought houses 20 years ago and some have multi million dollar gains. The debate is whether prices will return to a long term trend or not, do you sell and lock in gains or keep waiting for it to go ever higher?

Please remember, I said its best to have money before the discrepancy occurs. Being poor before doesn't help, there isn't opportunity to profit in either scenario. Being poor always puts you at a disadvantage, recognizing the market cycle doesn't change anything if you can't profit from it. I'm not saying the system is fair or mean, its just an example of how some people profit.

Also remember, cycles don't just last a year or two, some can run a decade or longer. The housing boom that ended in 2008 took several years to form, most people are impatient and want immediate changes.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: SwordGuy on June 21, 2017, 04:46:50 PM
honeybbq,

This official document shows the boundaries of the city of Seattle:

http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/Research/gis/webplots/smallzonemap.pdf (http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/Research/gis/webplots/smallzonemap.pdf)

I originally did the Seattle metro area as that's what many people would mean by Seattle.  You later said you wanted to limit your search to just 3 zip codes.   Hey, if you want to buy your houses where they are most expensive in town, that's your business.   But it doesn't make it true to say that one can't buy a home in Seattle city limits for less.

This link shows homes in Seattle using the same boundaries that the government of Seattle does:

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Seattle-WA/house_type/16037_rid/2-_beds/1-_baths/0-400000_price/0-1468_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/47.854638,-121.904984,47.370454,-122.78389_rect/9_zm/ (https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Seattle-WA/house_type/16037_rid/2-_beds/1-_baths/0-400000_price/0-1468_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/47.854638,-121.904984,47.370454,-122.78389_rect/9_zm/)

There are some MUCH nicer properties listed there that are move-in ready and below the $400,000 threshold.   Plus there are homes in pre-foreclosure status where you might get a great deal.

This book covers some of the techniques real estate investors use to harvest an area for properties with really good deals:

https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Real-Estate-Investor/dp/0071446370/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1498083660&sr=8-1&keywords=millionaire+real+estate+investor
 (https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Real-Estate-Investor/dp/0071446370/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1498083660&sr=8-1&keywords=millionaire+real+estate+investor)

You might want to learn how the pros do it and potentially save yourself a bundle.

Here's another look at the exact same area, but instead of looking at properties that might be bought, this lists properties that were recently sold:

https://www.zillow.com/homes/recently_sold/Seattle-WA/house_type/16037_rid/2-_beds/1-_baths/0-399994_price/0-1468_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/47.748557,-122.13604,47.506533,-122.575493_rect/10_zm/

Note that there are over THREE THOUSAND dwellings that fairly recently sold for under $400,000.    THREE THOUSAND.
This is data that's pulled from public and private commercial data.   Some of those sales will actually be apartments instead of homes.    Doesn't matter because quite a few of them are homes and those homes looked to be in nice shape.

I own six single family homes.   I only bought one of them at retail prices.  That was 16 years ago and I didn't know any better.

The next 4 were bought (and made move-in-able pretty quickly where needed) for the following percentages of retail value: 
51.2%
52.5%
43.5%
68.9%

#6 is a badly damaged property bought for a slow flip, so not applicable for this discussion.

Now, you're in a hotter market than I am, so you'll have to hustle harder to find a deal.

But the deals are most likely there if you (a) know how to find them and (b) put in the effort to do so.

By the way, I'm not saying that I'm a real estate "expert".  I'm not.  I'm a pretty raw beginner.   I've barely touched a small fraction of the techniques I've learned since I started investing in real estate.

So, those of you reading have a choice.  You can give up on finding a deal and either never buy or pay full retail (or more).   Or you can learn how to find and structure real estate deals.   

And even if it turns out that you're right, there truly are no deals in your area, you'll know how to find deals in other areas.  Maybe you'll be able to FIRE in less than 10 years with a host of rental properties in other cities like one of our moderators (ARebelSpy) did on two public school teacher salaries.



Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on June 21, 2017, 05:45:55 PM
Prairie Stash: Thanks!! :)
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: SwordGuy on June 21, 2017, 05:58:37 PM
The easiest is when wages exceed housing costs; a sign to buy real estate. ...
That's a solid analysis.  Thanks!
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Kyle Schuant on July 14, 2017, 12:02:29 AM


Basically, $120k income, it's $30k tax, $30k living, and $60k onto mortgage, which we count as "savings", it'll be paid off in 3-4yr.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Tyson on July 14, 2017, 02:42:05 PM
$120k and 49%.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: gerardc on July 14, 2017, 09:45:56 PM
~$335k (including employer match), ~82% savings rate
1 person, HCOL area

Around 71% (sigh) of my total expenses goes to rent. I'm renting almost the cheapest I can get 3 miles from work (most important criteria) and with no roommates. I'm pretty frugal other than that.

I may revisit the "no roommates" clause but I'd save ~$10k more a year, i.e. 3 more weeks of work per year, so I'm not sure it's worth the headache.


My theory to compare saving rates in HCOL vs LCOL (I've said this a few times before):

Salary is roughly proportional to COL in your area, so if COL doubles, your salary approximately doubles, and your savings per year double too, and your savings rate is the same, for the same level of effort. Using formulas in "the simple math to early retirement" purely as a function of savings rate will thus give you the same time to retire. However, the magic happens if you plan to leave the HCOL to a LCOL on FIRE, which can cut your work years roughly in half if you move to an area with half COL.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: VolcanicArts on July 14, 2017, 10:50:57 PM
I recently downloaded the money pro app, and have been using it religiously. It tracks every expense as well as income and has a lot of really good graphs that give you an idea of your net worth as well as savings rate. I was feeling really upbeat last week and was near the 60% savings rate, but then I got slammed with all types of unexpected stuff this week that knocked my savings rate for the month way down. Kind of a bummer, but this app is really good, and I want to see how much I am spending per month on average, as well as my average savings percent per month over at least a year and then I can get a better idea f how close to FI I really am. My current estimate is I'm about 50% FI, and about 6 years off from FIRE, but this may change based on the numbers that Money Pro gives me. I've also been working on some pretty detailed spreadsheets that calculate almost exactly my after tax and fee dividend amount, and I've been graphing this out as I plan to eventually just live off the dividend yield without ever touching the principal.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: gerardc on July 14, 2017, 10:52:42 PM
~$335k (including benefits), ~82% savings rate
1 person, HCOL area
Around 71% (sigh) of my total expenses goes to rent.

This is exactly why the poll will be inconclusive.  Any job with great benefits throws everything else off.  For example, my job pays OK, but covers healthcare premiums 100%.  My former job paid really well and 150% OT, but had crap healthcare.

Oh sorry, by benefits I meant 401k employer matching, I didn't include health or other perks. I should have been more clear.

Without employer matching it would be ~$325k income, about same savings rate, so not much difference. I'm not tracking any of that to the dollar, that's just an approximation.

ETA: Just did a more precise calculation. By counting 401k/HSA contributions as both savings and net income, I get 83% savings rate. By not counting them neither as savings nor net income, I get 80%, so again not much difference. I actually prefer counting them.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Classical_Liberal on July 15, 2017, 10:27:51 AM
Salary is roughly proportional to COL in your area, so if COL doubles, your salary approximately doubles, and your savings per year double too, and your savings rate is the same, for the same level of effort. Using formulas in "the simple math to early retirement" purely as a function of savings rate will thus give you the same time to retire. However, the magic happens if you plan to leave the HCOL to a LCOL on FIRE, which can cut your work years roughly in half if you move to an area with half COL.

Or manufacture a system in which you can earn the upper end of your fields pay-scale, but live in a LCOL area.  This is possible with many careers. (remote work, travel work, ect)

Or manufacture a system to live in a HCOL with high salary and spend more like you live in a LCOL. (See Herbert Derp's journal, ERE)

Or do both and live at 1/2 the LCOL areas expenses!!  I worship the ground this person walks on.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Lmoot on July 16, 2017, 06:25:01 PM
Salary is roughly proportional to COL in your area, so if COL doubles, your salary approximately doubles, and your savings per year double too, and your savings rate is the same, for the same level of effort. Using formulas in "the simple math to early retirement" purely as a function of savings rate will thus give you the same time to retire. However, the magic happens if you plan to leave the HCOL to a LCOL on FIRE, which can cut your work years roughly in half if you move to an area with half COL.

Or manufacture a system in which you can earn the upper end of your fields pay-scale, but live in a LCOL area.  This is possible with many careers. (remote work, travel work, ect)

Or manufacture a system to live in a HCOL with high salary and spend more like you live in a LCOL. (See Herbert Derp's journal, ERE)

Or do both and live at 1/2 the LCOL areas expenses!!  I worship the ground this person walks on.

It seems like employers are getting hip to this method and are insisting on paying a different wage depending on where you are based. Possibly you can start in a HCOL area and move to a LCOL area, retaining salary, but that might be reserved for seniority and negotiation skills. Unfortunately/ fortunately, working remotely has become more mainstream, and so companies are doing things to cut costs, even using remote employees in LCOL areas.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: SimpleCycle on July 16, 2017, 09:26:11 PM
We're in the $100k+, sub 50% savings rate crowd.  I'm pretty new to the forums, all about becoming FI, less sure about RE in the near term.  Our lifestyle is a work in progress, and I would hate to think people think I don't belong here because I'm still new to optimizing.

We go to an in home daycare and have two children.  If daycare was going into savings we'd be well above 50%.  We try to make Mustachian choices, but daycare in our city the choice is expensive or really expensive.

I think facepunches are most useful when the recipient is a somewhat willing recipient.  Namely, when they have asked for advice rather than when they are unsolicited.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: StarBright on July 17, 2017, 11:13:16 AM
Re-read some of this thread after it surfaced again and it is funny how it now seems boil-downable to the following:

Does providing for kids (and therefor by having kids) mean you are a "consumerist sucker"?

I say that mostly tongue in cheek - but paying for daycare and saving for college were basically equated with buying BMWs and going out to eat :) Most high income folks that saved more than 50% seemed to be non parents, and equivalent incomes that saved under 50% seemed to have children. SO . . . kids are expensive and (I would say) necessarily so if you give them a step up from the basics.

But really - it looks like we are talking about people saving in the 30% range of their income with kids to those saving closer to 50% without - none of that reads as consumerist to me.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: caracarn on July 17, 2017, 12:01:09 PM
@SimpleCycle, in the end there are just people in this world what like to grumble that no matter that you do it's not good enough.  Everyone who's here belongs here.  It's not Mar-a-Lago with a membership fee and an income thermometer shoved up your arse to see if you qualify. 

StarBright boiled it down to how I certainly feel about my situation.  I could easily be saving 60% if I did not have kids, but I do and that is not free, but it's ridiculous of me to think of it as a terrible expense I have incurred and therefore must free myself of as quickly as possible, perhaps by drowning them in a bag in the river like unwanted puppies.  I simply moved on from the complaints of those who felt I was not working hard enough.  I'd do the same thing with your child care expenses.  I am originally from your neck of the woods, so I get the expensive to really expensive.  There are less expensive alternatives but you might not get your kids back with those.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Roboturner on July 17, 2017, 12:05:23 PM
Just did my bi-yearly SR checkup, as of this week:

-115k+bonus (18k in march)
-82% SR

my yearly goal is 80%+ so looks like im doing ok
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Monkeytennis on July 17, 2017, 03:54:12 PM
Joint income of £200,000 so about $260,000, saving rate of 45%, should increase we've only recently increased our incomes and adopted MMM philosophy.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Classical_Liberal on July 17, 2017, 04:58:47 PM
Just did my bi-yearly SR checkup, as of this week:

-115k+bonus (18k in march)
-82% SR

my yearly goal is 80%+ so looks like im doing ok

Boom! Now that's what I'm talking about!
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: Roboturner on July 17, 2017, 05:19:26 PM
Thanks! I owe it all to my absolute hatred I feel for my job.

I suspect if I even felt a modicum of satisfaction from working for the man I'd be a bit more lax with the finances.

silver-lining, folks.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: GenXbiker on July 17, 2017, 07:11:30 PM
It looks like savings rate is calculated different ways, so I'll try to cover some common bases here.

My 2016 final figures:

Just over $100,000 gross income from wages

Preferred method:
Savings rate = (savings including employee & employer 401K contributions) / (net income + employee & employer 401K contributions)

I personally do not include home payments or home appreciation as savings because that is NOT part of your stache.

I get slightly different savings rates depending on which method I use:

80% savings rate as % of take home pay only (retirement investments are excluded)

82% including my retirement fund contributions in savings and dividing by (net income + 401K contributions)

83% including employer partial match retirement fund contributions and adding that to my income above for calculating as shown in the formula I called "preferred method."

85% including dividends on my NON-retirement accounts, which I re-invested.

I haven't figured anything for 2017 yet, but I'm sure it will be less due to some additional expenses I have to deal with this year.  70%+ may still be possible.

On the plus side, I like my job quite a bit.
Title: Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
Post by: onewayfamily on July 17, 2017, 09:52:32 PM
Pre FIRE:
Salary Income: ~$140k   Side-hustle Income: ~$50k
Savings Rate: ~70%

Post FIRE:
Total Income: ~$50-70k (depending on fluctuating interest rates, rental returns and side-hustle income streams)
Savings Rate: ~5-25% depending on how much travel we do (we're doing a lot at the moment)