Poll

What's your income level and savings rate?

$0-$50k - 0%-20%
$0-$50k - 20%-50%
$0-$50k - 50%+
$50-$75k - 0%-20%
$50-$75k - 20%-50%
$50-$75k - 50%+
$75-$100k - 0%-20%
$75-$100k - 20%-50%
$75-$100k - 50%+
>$100k - 0%-20%
>$100k - 20%-50%
>$100k - 50%+

Author Topic: What's your income level and savings rate?  (Read 22757 times)

boarder42

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #200 on: June 19, 2017, 11:03:15 AM »
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.

My savings rate is around 50%. I'm not sure what hair you are splitting.

b/c you're more or less coming to the defence of people making 200k and saving sub 25% of their money.  this is a large difference.
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ixtap

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #201 on: June 19, 2017, 11:04:20 AM »


thats literally the point of this site. to have others judge and make you question all your decisions to help you FIRE earlier or in a better safer way. 

wa wah wah



No, it isn't. That is the point specifically of case studies. The site itself has many points, such as:
  • individuals and individual families learning to optimize their own situations
  • people who have always lived well below their means looking for camaraderie
  • people who are proud of what they are doing having a place to brag

StarBright

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #202 on: June 19, 2017, 11:04:34 AM »


So if I move to a HCOL to earn more and am able to save $75k, even with the additional expenses, vs the $50k I was able to save in a LCOL, by your definition I have failed?
I am with you. There are far too many judgmental people with their noses in the air on this form looking for a FIGHT. Not even a single face punch,  but a constant poke the bear attitude. They have to prove they are so smart/enlightened and prove you are not "one of them". And they always have to say ONE more thing to say! It's non stop...

They completely ruined this thread by making it difficult to find everyone else's responses and being able to see what others savings rates are at a comparable income level.

They are not being helpful by making condescending and obviously inflammatory remarks to entice a response and keep the drama going. It's a waste of time and not helpful to anyone.

If you are making intentional decisions with your money, know where it's all going and what your goals are - who is anyone to judge? It's your life. I think the point of the blog is to open people's eyes to their spending, goals and how they can achieve FI. If you are engaged enough on this forum then you are aware. If you are unsure you will ask for a case study.




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thats literally the point of this site. to have others judge and make you question all your decisions to help you FIRE earlier or in a better safer way. 

wa wah wah

its hard to save 50% on 200k ... no its not and making statements like this doesnt better the forum in any way shape or form. all it does is help feed into a group think mentality for newcomers around here ... like oh yeah i can keep my porsche and my cable.. these are cognitive decisions i made ... that makes them ok. 

its not comfortable to truly look at where your money is going and evaluate if thats truly a happiness point in your life.  but misery loves company and there is a growing number of people on here complaining about how hard it is to save on ridiculous levels of income.

I don't think it is fair to make this about newbies with "my porsche and my cable" - the reasons I've seen on this thread seem to be very childcare specific - ie. high costs of childcare (especially for children with additional needs) and saving for college, and higher healthcare costs that come with having a family. In fact, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only people who are saying it is hard to save 50% were people with children.

I also don't think I actually read a post where someone said it was hard to save 50% on 200k (I may have missed it - and if it was Caracarn with 6 children approaching college age I totally get it! :))). There were plenty of people who said it is hard to save 50% on 100k+ and it is very possible that they are at the bottom of the range. To be honest and upfront - we are the bottom of that range and saved 45% last year - the budget was too bare bones and unpleasant enough that I'm no longer aiming to save that much again. I guess I should get face punched.

I can't remember who at this point, but someone upthread basically said they were surprised at how many 100k+ people weren't saving 50% and then several people responded to that. It wasn't as if these respondents commented unprompted - they were responding to a specific question and giving info. They were trying to be helpful and provide context for savings rates.

I think folks nicely volunteered additional information and ended up being told "you don't belong on this forum."



« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 11:25:31 AM by StarBright »

honeybbq

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #203 on: June 19, 2017, 11:06:32 AM »
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.

My savings rate is around 50%. I'm not sure what hair you are splitting.

b/c you're more or less coming to the defence of people making 200k and saving sub 25% of their money.  this is a large difference.

I did no such thing. I said that relative costs associated with making large incomes are also usually larger so it's not apples to apples all the time. Just because the salary SOUNDS large, it's often eaten up by increased taxes and costs of living by being in areas where you can command such a salary. Why is this so hard to understand? I'd love to only pay 100/month property tax, but mine is over 10x that, and there's nothing I can do about it. That's what it costs to live here and command a large salary.

honeybbq

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #204 on: June 19, 2017, 11:10:58 AM »
Here's an example:

Living in LCOLA:
salary 125 k
daycare 200/week (10k/yr)
house cost: 350k (very nice house)
property tax: 3000/year

Living in HCOLA
salary 200k
daycare 700/week (36k/yr)
house cost: 750k (2 bedroom, needs work)
property tax: 10k/year

So while one makes 75k a year more, a lot of it goes to costs that are difficult to control (daycare, property tax, etc). In the long run, it's better to make more money as raises equate with more money, contributions to retirement funds if a % of salary are more, etc. However, one's overall savings 'rate' might be similar.


jooniFLORisploo

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #205 on: June 19, 2017, 11:11:48 AM »
I think some folks confuse MMM with Jesus or someone. I suspect neither MMM nor Jesus aimed to be Jesus. They were folks doing their thing, sharing some good stuff that worked for them, and then other people went all Life of Brian on them.

I think they both encourage -and hope to inspire- others to live true to one's own values, not to theirs. Thus, every person being true to their deepest values and dreams, if not hurting others/the earth, is doing it right.

caracarn

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #206 on: June 19, 2017, 11:21:42 AM »

I can't remember who at this point, but someone upthread basically said they were surprised at how many 100k+ people weren't saving 50% and then several people responded to that. It wasn't as if these respondents commented unprompted - they were responding to a specific question and giving info. They were trying to be helpful and provide context for savings rates.

I think folks nicely volunteered additoinal information and ended up being told "you don't belong on this forum."
Yes, I was the first idiot who responded to that "prompt", and then "promptly" got my teeth kicked in for opening my mouth.  Was trying to further the conversation not become the punching bag in a game of "how MMM are you".

Lmoot

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #207 on: June 19, 2017, 01:15:17 PM »
Ixtap what are you trying to gain here. Are you arguing to try to get people to confirm your decisions or are you here to learn.  There is a mountain of wealth here and from your few posts in this thread it is blatantly obvious there is alot about personal finance and optimization you don't understand or refuse to listen to.

Open your mind and your finances with a case study. It likely would be eye opening to you just as you went thru it.

If you're here for justification of high spending it's unlikely to be found.

I am trying to gain a few of the posters here moving away from acting like a cult. There was literally a comment about "If you don't do what I expect, why are you even using these forums." However, justifying MMMs additional spending while simultaneously lambasting others doing the same thing in their own lives doesn't sound like that is a horse I should bother beating.

As for personal finance knowledge, I do at least understand that something "not happening every year" is a poor reason to exclude it from your spending. As a matter of fact, it is right in line with the I deserve it mentality so often used to justify a splurge.
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.



So if I move to a HCOL to earn more and am able to save $75k, even with the additional expenses, vs the $50k I was able to save in a LCOL, by your definition I have failed?
I am with you. There are far too many judgmental people with their noses in the air on this form looking for a FIGHT. Not even a single face punch,  but a constant poke the bear attitude. They have to prove they are so smart/enlightened and prove you are not "one of them". And they always have to say ONE more thing to say! It's non stop...

They completely ruined this thread by making it difficult to find everyone else's responses and being able to see what others savings rates are at a comparable income level.

They are not being helpful by making condescending and obviously inflammatory remarks to entice a response and keep the drama going. It's a waste of time and not helpful to anyone.

If you are making intentional decisions with your money, know where it's all going and what your goals are - who is anyone to judge? It's your life. I think the point of the blog is to open people's eyes to their spending, goals and how they can achieve FI. If you are engaged enough on this forum then you are aware. If you are unsure you will ask for a case study.




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thats literally the point of this site. to have others judge and make you question all your decisions to help you FIRE earlier or in a better safer way. 

wa wah wah

its hard to save 50% on 200k ... no its not and making statements like this doesnt better the forum in any way shape or form. all it does is help feed into a group think mentality for newcomers around here ... like oh yeah i can keep my porsche and my cable.. these are cognitive decisions i made ... that makes them ok. 

its not comfortable to truly look at where your money is going and evaluate if thats truly a happiness point in your life.  but misery loves company and there is a growing number of people on here complaining about how hard it is to save on ridiculous levels of income.

 I don't believe that you are only referring to people who complain because I constantly see you, and select others, lumping everyone together, and if people do say they are happy and satisfied with their decision both on how they spend their money now, and how early or not early they want to retire, you diminish their goals down to justifications.

 What if they don't want to retire earlier? And before you come at me and say well that is the point of this site, I didn't say they don't want to retire early. But some people genuinely have an ideal time they want to retire, and it's not based on when a bunch of strangers on the internet say they should retire.  One of the things I personally hate about consumerist society,  is the lemming-like tendencies  of its participants; the inability to mindfully assess ones's individual needs and desires, and follow through with them, even in the face of opposing popular view. Sounds quite a bit familiar around here. Consumerist behaviour doesn't only apply to over consumption of physical objects. You can overconsume ideologies as well.

 If you truly want to attempt a social experiment measuring the validity of one's happiness, I would 100% choose the individual who is secure enough in their goals, and shows the logical and mathematical work to support those goals, that they are not going to let a bunch of strangers on internet make convince them to do a complete edit, over the one who apparently isn't secure or happy enough in their prior decisions, that they seek and need the total validation of those same anonymous individuals. Retiring the earliest, is absolutely no guarantee of a happier life.  And if you are hedging all of your bets on having an entirely different life post retirement, then you are not doing something right in your life now in my opinion. I am so thankful that I don't feel the need to eat shit now for the "promise of milk and honey later". I guess that's the same reason I'm an atheist as well. I like to spread my bets around a little bit.


boarder42

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #208 on: June 19, 2017, 01:19:53 PM »

I can't remember who at this point, but someone upthread basically said they were surprised at how many 100k+ people weren't saving 50% and then several people responded to that. It wasn't as if these respondents commented unprompted - they were responding to a specific question and giving info. They were trying to be helpful and provide context for savings rates.

I think folks nicely volunteered additoinal information and ended up being told "you don't belong on this forum."
Yes, I was the first idiot who responded to that "prompt", and then "promptly" got my teeth kicked in for opening my mouth.  Was trying to further the conversation not become the punching bag in a game of "how MMM are you".

your response was one of "you cant understand my life,  we have it all figured out" 

i disagree that saving that little on an income that large fits the statement made above.
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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #209 on: June 19, 2017, 01:44:05 PM »
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.
They just have no time to reply because fire is approaching so fast ;)

With 100k gross income i would save about 70% net easily. I would fire in 3 years or so.
Sadly i am way more down (60k € gross) but currently feed a family of four, so still doing great in my opinion.

I always have to pipe up when I see comments that are "If I made XYZ, I could save ABC"... the truth is many people who make a lot of money live in HCOLA. I moved to a HCOLA and increased my salary by over 50k, but I don't get an extra 50k worth of savings because of the extra expenses associated along with living in that area to make that salary.  My savings 'rate' is about the same, I just make more. So it ends up being a win overall, but it's not like a smoking gun.

we're around 160k-170k gross income and invest around 110k+ annually -  always trying to squeeze more out. variance is due to my bonus structure at work.  more bonus more money into savings. if you were to count house equity gain that savings goes up more but its not something i count.

I'm going to call BS on this. Let's say you make 170k and can both contribute the max (36k) to pretax 401k's and 6.7k to an HSA; So your Taxable income is 127k. In Missouri you pay about 37.5k in taxes.

So of your 170k you are working with 132.5k after taxes and saving 110k which means you are living off 22.5k?

You have a mortgage for a "big house", a boat, and long commute by car. Housing expenses on say 150K for a large house in rural MO is 9k per year. Are you are not counting income from side gigs, gifts, or employer matching? Maybe you are getting a lot of "freebies" you are not counting like MMM and his 30k renovation, new car, or vacations?

I am genuinely interested how you can live a "six figure" lifestyle for something around 15k after housing expenses.   


boarder42

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #210 on: June 19, 2017, 01:53:58 PM »
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.
They just have no time to reply because fire is approaching so fast ;)

With 100k gross income i would save about 70% net easily. I would fire in 3 years or so.
Sadly i am way more down (60k € gross) but currently feed a family of four, so still doing great in my opinion.

I always have to pipe up when I see comments that are "If I made XYZ, I could save ABC"... the truth is many people who make a lot of money live in HCOLA. I moved to a HCOLA and increased my salary by over 50k, but I don't get an extra 50k worth of savings because of the extra expenses associated along with living in that area to make that salary.  My savings 'rate' is about the same, I just make more. So it ends up being a win overall, but it's not like a smoking gun.

we're around 160k-170k gross income and invest around 110k+ annually -  always trying to squeeze more out. variance is due to my bonus structure at work.  more bonus more money into savings. if you were to count house equity gain that savings goes up more but its not something i count.

I'm going to call BS on this. Let's say you make 170k and can both contribute the max (36k) to pretax 401k's and 6.7k to an HSA; So your Taxable income is 127k. In Missouri you pay about 37.5k in taxes.

So of your 170k you are working with 132.5k after taxes and saving 110k which means you are living off 22.5k?

You have a mortgage for a "big house", a boat, and long commute by car. Housing expenses on say 150K for a large house in rural MO is 9k per year. Are you are not counting income from side gigs, gifts, or employer matching? Maybe you are getting a lot of "freebies" you are not counting like MMM and his 30k renovation, new car, or vacations?

I am genuinely interested how you can live a "six figure" lifestyle for something around 15k after housing expenses.

company matches and ESOP contributions count into that 170k number and these arent taxable either.  that tax assumption seems to be way off as well.  with deduction etc. our taxable income is down to around 85k and our taxes are around 13k federal and 5k state. 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 02:00:30 PM by boarder42 »
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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #211 on: June 19, 2017, 02:42:54 PM »
we're around 160k-170k gross income and invest around 110k+ annually -  always trying to squeeze more out. variance is due to my bonus structure at work.  more bonus more money into savings. if you were to count house equity gain that savings goes up more but its not something i count.

I'm going to call BS on this. Let's say you make 170k and can both contribute the max (36k) to pretax 401k's and 6.7k to an HSA; So your Taxable income is 127k. In Missouri you pay about 37.5k in taxes.

So of your 170k you are working with 132.5k after taxes and saving 110k which means you are living off 22.5k?

You have a mortgage for a "big house", a boat, and long commute by car. Housing expenses on say 150K for a large house in rural MO is 9k per year. Are you are not counting income from side gigs, gifts, or employer matching? Maybe you are getting a lot of "freebies" you are not counting like MMM and his 30k renovation, new car, or vacations?

I am genuinely interested how you can live a "six figure" lifestyle for something around 15k after housing expenses.

company matches and ESOP contributions count into that 170k number and these arent taxable either.  that tax assumption seems to be way off as well.  with deduction etc. our taxable income is down to around 85k and our taxes are around 13k federal and 5k state.

I see. This is why there needs to be more clarity when people are posting savings rates. So your grossing about 127.5k if your taxable is 85k  and you are putting away 36k in 401k's and 6.6k into an HSA. ESOP and Matching is around 40k. So pretax is ~83k and post tax is about ~27k which means you are spending ~40k.

You are putting away ~70k/yr your of your paycheck which is awesome - 55% of gross but you are counting a lot of employer matching and gifts which other posters may exclude.

posts like these make me want to start blogs about optimizing.  if i were to just list out my lifestyle everyone here would say No F'n way you're saving 67% of around 170k gross on that but yes ... yes we are.


Spending ~40k which is a lot by MMM standards, and you are beating up on caracarn for saving 23% of his gross 200k family income. He is saving 50k for college + 46k for retirement (where his 23% comes from) + 49k in taxes (TN) and spending 55K/yr. So about ~15k more than you spend and is feeding, housing, and transporting 6 more people. To put it another way - He spends $6900 per person per year and you spend 20k per person per year. Who is more frugal?   

prognastat

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #212 on: June 19, 2017, 03:36:41 PM »
Spending ~40k which is a lot by MMM standards, and you are beating up on caracarn for saving 23% of his gross 200k family income. He is saving 50k for college + 46k for retirement (where his 23% comes from) + 49k in taxes (TN) and spending 55K/yr. So about ~15k more than you spend and is feeding, housing, and transporting 6 more people. To put it another way - He spends $6900 per person per year and you spend 20k per person per year. Who is more frugal?   

$40k a year isn't a lot by MMM standards if a mortgage is included in that. If MMM was carrying a mortgage on his house he would actually be somewhere around 45-50k a year simply by adding the mortgage to his 25k mortgage free spending.

Also the college money isn't savings since it is earmarked for college thus spending, and not going towards funding their stache so this doesn't really count the same way and it's disingenuous to act as if it is simply savings.

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #213 on: June 19, 2017, 04:29:07 PM »
Spending ~40k which is a lot by MMM standards, and you are beating up on caracarn for saving 23% of his gross 200k family income. He is saving 50k for college + 46k for retirement (where his 23% comes from) + 49k in taxes (TN) and spending 55K/yr. So about ~15k more than you spend and is feeding, housing, and transporting 6 more people. To put it another way - He spends $6900 per person per year and you spend 20k per person per year. Who is more frugal?   

$40k a year isn't a lot by MMM standards if a mortgage is included in that. If MMM was carrying a mortgage on his house he would actually be somewhere around 45-50k a year simply by adding the mortgage to his 25k mortgage free spending.

Also the college money isn't savings since it is earmarked for college thus spending, and not going towards funding their stache so this doesn't really count the same way and it's disingenuous to act as if it is simply savings.

True, the point is border is spending 20k per year per person while caracarin is spending less than 7k per person. Border is belittling other posters because he sees his lavish lifestyle with a big house, boat, and Hawaiian vacations paid for with 40k of spending and can't see the difference between some one providing day to day living expenses for 8 people of 55k in yearly spending. I'm sure border is living considerably more lavishly than caracarin, but is attacking him as not belonging on the site because he has made helping his 6 kids with college a priority. If you would like to face punch him for paying for college go ahead, but don't assume he just has a day to day spending problem, fancy car, boat, and goes on wild vacations and is just making excuses. 55k for a mortgage, food, ckothing, and transportation for 8 people sounds pretty badass.

doublethinkmoney

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #214 on: June 19, 2017, 05:53:35 PM »
I think some folks confuse MMM with Jesus or someone. I suspect neither MMM nor Jesus aimed to be Jesus. They were folks doing their thing, sharing some good stuff that worked for them, and then other people went all Life of Brian on them.

I think they both encourage -and hope to inspire- others to live true to one's own values, not to theirs. Thus, every person being true to their deepest values and dreams, if not hurting others/the earth, is doing it right.
Amen. I don't see MMM spending his time trolling people on this form about their savings rate. That's not the point of the blog or the forum.

He has better things to do.


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Classical_Liberal

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #215 on: June 19, 2017, 06:47:28 PM »
I think some folks confuse MMM with Jesus or someone. I suspect neither MMM nor Jesus aimed to be Jesus.

^This really made me laugh!

re The debate at hand. I still agree with boarder.  This forum is one where people who spend efficiently and below average  meet and discuss.  Not only that, we regularly challenge each other.  We challenge about resource usage, spending, charity, personal ideals of social and political importance.  No matter incomes, no matter savings rate, any comment is open for intelligent criticism.  If you don't like it, don't make comments.

That being said, obviously each person is a special snow flake with unique circumstances and that's fine.   However, be prepared to defend a position that is obviously, at first glance, outside of optimized.  Not even knowing how to calculate your own savings rate is not prepared, sorry.

As boarder has stated over and over, if someone is here to simply reaffirm he/she is "doing great" because she/he spends less than his/her neighbors, then you are in the wrong place.  If someone is here to learn how to do better than a low savings rate with high income, even in HCOL, then post a case study and learn.  Otherwise it is YOU who is trolling the actual core of this forum.

Everyone here can do better, me, boarder 42, everyone. The difference is in attitude.  Should I learn to do better or make excuses about why I can't, both take about the same amount of energy. Choose wisely.


Classical_Liberal

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #216 on: June 19, 2017, 06:59:11 PM »
While I appreciate the OPs poll I do think saving and spending rates between people of equal incomes are just too different to compare.

Difficult to compare is true, but that should not be an excuse for one to say "My situation is different so I need three BMW's".

Those calculators I posted up thread were really an attempt to show spending on "equal ground" for family size and location.  Again, those are not perfect.  FIRE cash flow accounting is difficult.  Should a paid off home have imputed rent,  annual maintenance/tax cost only,  if I rent a room should it be an appreciating asset, ect?

The issue is more, is your resource usage optimized or are you super-wasteful?  Are the cash flows optimized for your situation?

IOW do I, classical liberal, live in a 2000 sq foot home in a HCOL area by myself?  If so, I'm being wasteful, no matter my income or SR, I'm not optimized.  If I post this information and don't get jumped on, then the forum has lost its usefulness.

afuera

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #217 on: June 20, 2017, 06:25:46 AM »
we're around 160k-170k gross income and invest around 110k+ annually -  always trying to squeeze more out. variance is due to my bonus structure at work.  more bonus more money into savings. if you were to count house equity gain that savings goes up more but its not something i count.

I'm going to call BS on this. Let's say you make 170k and can both contribute the max (36k) to pretax 401k's and 6.7k to an HSA; So your Taxable income is 127k. In Missouri you pay about 37.5k in taxes.

So of your 170k you are working with 132.5k after taxes and saving 110k which means you are living off 22.5k?

You have a mortgage for a "big house", a boat, and long commute by car. Housing expenses on say 150K for a large house in rural MO is 9k per year. Are you are not counting income from side gigs, gifts, or employer matching? Maybe you are getting a lot of "freebies" you are not counting like MMM and his 30k renovation, new car, or vacations?

I am genuinely interested how you can live a "six figure" lifestyle for something around 15k after housing expenses.

company matches and ESOP contributions count into that 170k number and these arent taxable either.  that tax assumption seems to be way off as well.  with deduction etc. our taxable income is down to around 85k and our taxes are around 13k federal and 5k state.

I see. This is why there needs to be more clarity when people are posting savings rates. So your grossing about 127.5k if your taxable is 85k  and you are putting away 36k in 401k's and 6.6k into an HSA. ESOP and Matching is around 40k. So pretax is ~83k and post tax is about ~27k which means you are spending ~40k.

You are putting away ~70k/yr your of your paycheck which is awesome - 55% of gross but you are counting a lot of employer matching and gifts which other posters may exclude.

posts like these make me want to start blogs about optimizing.  if i were to just list out my lifestyle everyone here would say No F'n way you're saving 67% of around 170k gross on that but yes ... yes we are.


Spending ~40k which is a lot by MMM standards, and you are beating up on caracarn for saving 23% of his gross 200k family income. He is saving 50k for college + 46k for retirement (where his 23% comes from) + 49k in taxes (TN) and spending 55K/yr. So about ~15k more than you spend and is feeding, housing, and transporting 6 more people. To put it another way - He spends $6900 per person per year and you spend 20k per person per year. Who is more frugal?   
+1.  Index, great post and analysis.

My situation is similar to boarder42's close to 190K income pre-tax and we save anywhere between 60-75% depending on the month.  Our only fixed expenses are our house (and associated bills/utilities), gas, and food.  Everything else we spend is completely superfluous and I fully admit we are living luxurious life. 
I'm know that our savings rate would be much, much lower with childcare, HCOL (we live in TX, very affordable housing), and medical costs (HDHP completely covered by employer and both Hubs and I are blessed to be young and healthy). 
"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it" - Henry David Thoreau

6/2017: INV-3.4x, NW-5.0x
Projected FIRE date: 2025
Journal.

YoungGranny

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #218 on: June 20, 2017, 06:32:37 AM »
I guess I still feel like on some level savings rates should be comparable....if you live in a HCOL area vs  LCOL your salary usually reflects that to some extent. While it's not apples to apples I think in a certain income range if you're actively trying to save money and FIRE 50% shouldn't be too difficult. Now kids are where the big wrench can be thrown in and I think then it becomes harder to compare.

I'm actually all for the face-punches to some extent. I started coming on this forum expecting to get way more face punches then I did and I'm a person who can benefit from that. Now on the other hand if you criticize someone but then they justify why they are doing it and it's somewhat reasonable (not talking about justifying 3 BMWs here but something like choosing the right daycare for their child) then at some point the conversation needs to move on because both sides are going to walk away knowing in their mind they are doing the best thing they can for their situation. I also think it's all context - for example I know I could spend less on travel each year but the truth is I would rather work an extra year or two to be able to have those experiences in life. I don't care how much you criticize my traveling I know it's not personally worth it to me to give it up. Now this forum has been helpful in mentioning travel hacking and finding ways to save which I appreciate! But if someone decides they are fine working extra to afford anything I think that's their personal choice - finding ways to achieve the same goal on less money is the perk of this forum to me.

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #219 on: June 20, 2017, 07:06:53 AM »
Quote
Now kids are where the big wrench can be thrown in and I think then it becomes harder to compare.

Would it work to simply do a "per household member" rate, as index explored? e.g., Divide household income by number of people supported on it, then divide savings by same number?

YoungGranny

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #220 on: June 20, 2017, 07:27:04 AM »
Quote
Now kids are where the big wrench can be thrown in and I think then it becomes harder to compare.

Would it work to simply do a "per household member" rate, as index explored? e.g., Divide household income by number of people supported on it, then divide savings by same number?

I think "per household member" gets closer to the target but it still might not capture certain expenses perfectly. For example, lets say you have 5kids in the midwest - your housing costs may not actually be all that much higher than a DINK couple who wanted to purchase a home with the plan of having kids a few years. Although the DINK couple does not need a 3bedroom house right now when I was looking for houses it's hard to find 1 or 2 bedroom houses. Even utilities shouldn't increase too much for more people - you still need to pay for heating in the winter no matter how many people live in it. So for the housing line item we're spending way more per person. Another area would be groceries - buying food in bulk can save you tons of money (as a family of 5 growing up I saw this first hand) but now as a 2-person household I can't exactly replicate that even though I buy what I can in bulk. Although maybe factoring in daycare costs/child expenses that the 2-person household would make it a wash?

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #221 on: June 20, 2017, 07:57:58 AM »
Though, housing is my favourite hack :)
Kid and me paid $500-$650 (all told, for the two of us combined) in two of the world's most expensive housing (rent or own) markets. So, I think even housing can well reflect whether we're effectively slashing costs or can further optimize.

A family of six with a bigger place than we had? Absolutely. And that would be addressed via a PP rate.

index

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #222 on: June 20, 2017, 09:22:52 AM »
I think the big take away from all this is you really have to focus on spending and not the savings rate when comparing yourself to others on the forum. I started another thread about how subjective and different savings rate is from on poster to another depending on how they calculate it. Some people are saying they have a 75% savings rate on 200k which would be impossible if that was actually 200k of W2 income as they would have to be paying at least 25% in taxes. I was super impressed by Border's 69% reported savings rate on 170k until I realized he is counting ~40K tax free matching/stock options as gross income. Which is fine if that is how he chooses to compute his SR, but is not comparable to someone who actually makes 170k in W2 income.   

State taxes are a huge too, if you make 200k and put away 36k into your 401k your effective tax rate is 37% in CA, 34% in CO, or 30% in TN. On the spending side, if this 200k high earning couple reported a 50% SR in CA they are spending 26k/yr; in TN they are spending 40k/yr. The TN couple spends 50%+ more per year than the CA couple!


YoungGranny

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #223 on: June 20, 2017, 09:36:15 AM »
I think the big take away from all this is you really have to focus on spending and not the savings rate when comparing yourself to others on the forum. I started another thread about how subjective and different savings rate is from on poster to another depending on how they calculate it. Some people are saying they have a 75% savings rate on 200k which would be impossible if that was actually 200k of W2 income as they would have to be paying at least 25% in taxes. I was super impressed by Border's 69% reported savings rate on 170k until I realized he is counting ~40K tax free matching/stock options as gross income. Which is fine if that is how he chooses to compute his SR, but is not comparable to someone who actually makes 170k in W2 income.   

State taxes are a huge too, if you make 200k and put away 36k into your 401k your effective tax rate is 37% in CA, 34% in CO, or 30% in TN. On the spending side, if this 200k high earning couple reported a 50% SR in CA they are spending 26k/yr; in TN they are spending 40k/yr. The TN couple spends 50%+ more per year than the CA couple!

Ah! Very good points indeed! Living in my small mid-west bubble has definitely skewed my view of things. This post in general has been very informative for me and I've learned a heck of a lot! Which I think we can all agree is one of the main purposes of this forum: learning :).  I do think focusing on spending is the right avenue but focusing on increasing savings as an individual whether that's a dollar amount or a percentage is always good too.

index

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #224 on: June 20, 2017, 09:54:52 AM »
If we want a real comparison of forum members, we need to focus on spending not savings rate.

The location along with the number of people per household needs to be considered.

For location:
 Look up your location (or similar location) here https://www.infoplease.com/business-finance/us-economy-and-federal-budget/cost-living-index-selected-us-cities1. Take your spending divided by the "100% composite index" as a percentage.

Example: if you spend 40k/yr and live in Albany, GA take 40k/.901 =  44.4k.

No. of household members:
There are efficiencies to living and sharing finances with others. A single person and a couple can share the same apartment. I would propose counting the first person as - 1, a couple as 1.5, the first child as 0.5 and each additional child as 0.25.

Example:

Single - 1
Couple -1.5
Couple w/ 1 - 2
Couple w/ 2 - 2.25
Couple w/ 6 - 3.25

Take the location adjusted spending divided by No. of people in the household factor.

Examples:

Couple spending 40k in Los Angeles -> Location factor - 40k/1.36 = 29.4k; household factor - 1.5
Their spending index is 29.4k/1.5 = 19.6k

Couple w/ 6 kids in Nashville TN spending 55k -> Location factor - 55k/.889 = 62k; household factor - 3.25
Their spending index is 62k/3.25 = 19k

Prairie Stash

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #225 on: June 20, 2017, 10:10:44 AM »
If we want a real comparison of forum members, we need to focus on spending not savings rate.

The location along with the number of people per household needs to be considered.

For location:
 Look up your location (or similar location) here https://www.infoplease.com/business-finance/us-economy-and-federal-budget/cost-living-index-selected-us-cities1. Take your spending divided by the "100% composite index" as a percentage.

Example: if you spend 40k/yr and live in Albany, GA take 40k/.901 =  44.4k.

No. of household members:
There are efficiencies to living and sharing finances with others. A single person and a couple can share the same apartment. I would propose counting the first person as - 1, a couple as 1.5, the first child as 0.5 and each additional child as 0.25.

Example:

Single - 1
Couple -1.5
Couple w/ 1 - 2
Couple w/ 2 - 2.25
Couple w/ 6 - 3.25

Take the location adjusted spending divided by No. of people in the household factor.

Examples:

Couple spending 40k in Los Angeles -> Location factor - 40k/1.36 = 29.4k; household factor - 1.5
Their spending index is 29.4k/1.5 = 19.6k

Couple w/ 6 kids in Nashville TN spending 55k -> Location factor - 55k/.889 = 62k; household factor - 3.25
Their spending index is 62k/3.25 = 19k
USDA publishes statistics that confirm your thoughts. Each additional child is cheaper to raise than the first child; as evidenced by compiling statistics on what people actually spend.

However, local wages generally reflect local expenses. In areas with high local expenses people tend to make more, they need to in order to pay the bills or they quickly become homeless. In areas with low expenses people make less. In areas that have high wages and low expenses you generally see rapidly increasing costs, the opposite is also true. In areas where this isn't true there are concerns about the ongoing success; in my local area market corrections took us from a LCOL to a mid cost rapidly when wages started increasing rapidly. The local conditions brought about huge housing gains, eventually though it all averaged out and people's lives reverted to normal. If you had the money, which some did, people made small fortunes from recognizing what happens when wages are out of sync with expenses for an area.

SwordGuy

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #226 on: June 20, 2017, 10:27:10 AM »
...I had a VERY nice house in the midwest for $400k, but you literally can NOT buy a house in Seattle for $400 k. Condemed lots costs more than 400k. Easy come easy go.

Really?

Why is it when I go to Zillow.com and type in a max sale price for a 2 bedroom house in the Seattle area, the screen fills up with dots for houses for sale.  So many, in fact, that zillow puts up a message saying the search has been limited to only 500 results.

Statements like that are why folks who say one CANT' do (whatever) get hammered really hard on these forums.   Because one often CAN, one simply choose not to.

honeybbq

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #227 on: June 20, 2017, 10:36:55 AM »
...I had a VERY nice house in the midwest for $400k, but you literally can NOT buy a house in Seattle for $400 k. Condemed lots costs more than 400k. Easy come easy go.

Really?

Why is it when I go to Zillow.com and type in a max sale price for a 2 bedroom house in the Seattle area, the screen fills up with dots for houses for sale.  So many, in fact, that zillow puts up a message saying the search has been limited to only 500 results.

Statements like that are why folks who say one CANT' do (whatever) get hammered really hard on these forums.   Because one often CAN, one simply choose not to.

I said HOUSE. Not condo. Try again. Again, people thinking they know better than people who ACTUALLY LIVE here is just laughable. There's actually a 2 bedroom house up the street from where I live for sale. It's a nice house, but only 2 bedroom again. It's asking price is for $730k, and usually houses sell for 50-200k over asking here.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 10:44:03 AM by honeybbq »

honeybbq

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #228 on: June 20, 2017, 10:41:21 AM »
...I had a VERY nice house in the midwest for $400k, but you literally can NOT buy a house in Seattle for $400 k. Condemed lots costs more than 400k. Easy come easy go.

Really?

Why is it when I go to Zillow.com and type in a max sale price for a 2 bedroom house in the Seattle area, the screen fills up with dots for houses for sale.  So many, in fact, that zillow puts up a message saying the search has been limited to only 500 results.

Statements like that are why folks who say one CANT' do (whatever) get hammered really hard on these forums.   Because one often CAN, one simply choose not to.
[/quote]

Here's the picture of 500k max price free standing 2 bedroom houses in Seattle proper in the 3 zip codes around me. The one that's listed here is actually a mistake and the zip code is wrong and it belongs in another state (Idaho). One is next to the railroad tracks. Notice the one I'm zooming in on with the LOVELY boarded up windows... I'm sure that place is move in ready. Thanks for playing.


http://imgur.com/a/Zg4lK

I can't make the link work so you'll have to actually click on it.




« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 10:50:33 AM by honeybbq »

Prairie Stash

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #229 on: June 20, 2017, 11:14:43 AM »
Here's an example:

Living in LCOLA:
salary 125 k
daycare 200/week (10k/yr)
house cost: 350k (very nice house)
property tax: 3000/year

Living in HCOLA
salary 200k
daycare 700/week (36k/yr)
house cost: 750k (2 bedroom, needs work)
property tax: 10k/year

So while one makes 75k a year more, a lot of it goes to costs that are difficult to control (daycare, property tax, etc). In the long run, it's better to make more money as raises equate with more money, contributions to retirement funds if a % of salary are more, etc. However, one's overall savings 'rate' might be similar.
Thank you for posting this. There are many diverging viewpoints here but the Bureau of Labour and Standards (BLS) will back this up. HCOL areas people tend to make and spend more so the SR can be the same % as a LCOL area. Median Income for Seattle is over $30/hour, expenses are also higher. The same phenomenon plays out with differing countries, people might make $10k and have a very fine life in other countries, in the USA its below poverty.

As a Canadian my wage in USD is lower but in CDN terms is quite nice. its all relative to where you spend the money. Its neither excusing nor defending a low SR, its just how wages and expenses  are correlated. The average person is comfortable spending all their pay, local expenses usually reflect how much people have in their wallets.

Lmoot

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #230 on: June 20, 2017, 11:22:29 AM »
I think some folks confuse MMM with Jesus or someone. I suspect neither MMM nor Jesus aimed to be Jesus.

^This really made me laugh!

re The debate at hand. I still agree with boarder.  This forum is one where people who spend efficiently and below average  meet and discuss.  Not only that, we regularly challenge each other.  We challenge about resource usage, spending, charity, personal ideals of social and political importance.  No matter incomes, no matter savings rate, any comment is open for intelligent criticism.  If you don't like it, don't make comments.

That being said, obviously each person is a special snow flake with unique circumstances and that's fine.   However, be prepared to defend a position that is obviously, at first glance, outside of optimized.  Not even knowing how to calculate your own savings rate is not prepared, sorry.

As boarder has stated over and over, if someone is here to simply reaffirm he/she is "doing great" because she/he spends less than his/her neighbors, then you are in the wrong place.  If someone is here to learn how to do better than a low savings rate with high income, even in HCOL, then post a case study and learn.  Otherwise it is YOU who is trolling the actual core of this forum.

Everyone here can do better, me, boarder 42, everyone. The difference is in attitude.  Should I learn to do better or make excuses about why I can't, both take about the same amount of energy. Choose wisely.

If everyone here is supposed to be a self-admitted financial screwup, then who the heck isupposed to be doing all of this lecturing and counseling? D'oh! Silly me for thinking this was supposed to be community of like-minded folks taking and giving ideas to help each other reach their respective goals. Case studies might be one aspect of the forum, but there is a reason why there is a segregated area of the forum for them. Apparently the plebe's are not expected to think for themselves, but rather ought to subject themselves to judgement of the court, and provide fodder to feed the ego and provide schadenfreude for the hardcore mustachians to use as punching bags because they could never get away with their obtrusive opinions IRL without getting face punched in real life. Got it.

PoutineLover

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #231 on: June 20, 2017, 11:25:44 AM »
I thought this forum was about striving to do better, reducing expenses and impacts on the environment, and optimizing expenses to meet one's goals. Not about bashing each other and using very limited information to judge each other. Yes, if someone does a case study they are obviously looking for help and are asking for face punches. But this poll was literally asking savings rate range for income range and that's not enough info to know if someone is mustachian or not, especially when there's not a single standard for how to calculate SR (long term vs short term savings, counting employer match, benefits, mortgage, housing, etc.). Not everyone can save >50%. Not everyone wants to retire at 35. Some people have expensive obligations (supporting disabled or young dependents for example). Most of us can do better. All of us who are trying are welcome here, even if they don't meet some arbitrary standard for mustachianism imposed by some anonymous forum member.

force majeure

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #232 on: June 20, 2017, 12:50:31 PM »
I am at savings rate of 120% of salary.
Bit of an experiment really - declared myself FI in JAN last year and decided to do a dry run, living off part of my passive income.
Sure its a severe case of OMY, but I dont give a f*ck.
p.s. I get this from friends a lot…

"What will you do?”
"Whatever the hell I feel like doing on any given day."

jooniFLORisploo

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #233 on: June 20, 2017, 01:20:02 PM »
Quote
If you had the money, which some did, people made small fortunes from recognizing what happens when wages are out of sync with expenses for an area.

Prairie Stash, as an aside, can you please tell me more about this? I'm in one of those areas where wages for many no longer touch basic living (shelter) costs, such that lots of "regular" people are becoming homeless. How were some folks making money in these scenarios, pre-adjustment?

SwordGuy

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #234 on: June 20, 2017, 03:34:50 PM »
Apparently my link didn't paste into my last post, so here it is again:

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/house,condo,townhouse_type/2-_beds/1-_baths/0-400000_price/0-1468_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/47.762638,-121.951332,47.463147,-122.738228_rect/10_zm/

Well over 500 results in the Seattle area under $400,000.

Now, some will be condos or townhomes, some will be single family dwellings.  Some will be foreclosed and actively on the market, others will be foreclosed and you have to contact the bank to buy them.  Some will be bogus due to them being auctions or mis-coded rentals.

I use this website to find likely properties in my market and, although not perfect, it's good enough to find bargains.

But a spot check on the results shows some nice looking properties below $400,000.


SwordGuy

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #235 on: June 20, 2017, 04:49:02 PM »
...I had a VERY nice house in the midwest for $400k, but you literally can NOT buy a house in Seattle for $400 k. Condemed lots costs more than 400k. Easy come easy go.


Here's the picture of 500k max price free standing 2 bedroom houses in Seattle proper in the 3 zip codes around me. The one that's listed here is actually a mistake and the zip code is wrong and it belongs in another state (Idaho). One is next to the railroad tracks. Notice the one I'm zooming in on with the LOVELY boarded up windows... I'm sure that place is move in ready. Thanks for playing.


http://imgur.com/a/Zg4lK

I can't make the link work so you'll have to actually click on it.

Well, you said it was LITERALLY impossible to do so, but you've shown a picture that proves it can be done.   

Now you're changing the goal posts.  Move in ready was not in your statement, nor was "in only 3 zip codes".

Here's a link to a house under $400,000 that looks to be move-in  ready.

But I see plenty of nice looking single family dwellings for sale in Seattle for less than $400,000 that are move-in ready.   And, frankly, it only takes one to prove that your statement  that it's LITERALLY impossible to do so as an incorrect one.

So, here's one that definitely looks move-in ready:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7742-35th-Ave-SW-Seattle-WA-98126/48769290_zpid/


Perhaps a review of this MMM article would be in order?

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/26/cure-yourself-of-tiny-details-exaggeration-syndrome/

SwordGuy

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #236 on: June 20, 2017, 06:01:30 PM »

"Young man, success comes in can,
failure comes in can't."

Admiral Grace Hopper to a young friend of mine in 1978.


It was damn good advice, and it's good to keep it in mind when saying "It's not possible to ..."

Instead, turn it into a question, "How could it be possible for me to ...?" or "Where could I go to learn more about ... so that I might learn how it might be possible to ...?"


CorpRaider

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #237 on: June 21, 2017, 06:48:21 AM »
Funny how greater than 30% of the poll is 100K or more with greater than 50% savings yet not one comment from this group. Scarcely anything from anyone cresting 100K at all which is greater than 50% of all participants. Interesting.

I'm in this group.  I'm at 51% to 78% depending on if I include my forced savings in pension/annuity and SS and/or student loan payments.  Spouse not onboard with the FIRE thing so none of her (modest) savings are included.  We are having a kid later this year so the challenge will be increased.  Daycare alone will present a hurdle. 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 07:45:29 AM by CorpRaider »

index

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #238 on: June 21, 2017, 09:13:15 AM »
we're around 160k-170k gross income and invest around 110k+ annually -  always trying to squeeze more out. variance is due to my bonus structure at work.  more bonus more money into savings. if you were to count house equity gain that savings goes up more but its not something i count.

I'm going to call BS on this. Let's say you make 170k and can both contribute the max (36k) to pretax 401k's and 6.7k to an HSA; So your Taxable income is 127k. In Missouri you pay about 37.5k in taxes.

So of your 170k you are working with 132.5k after taxes and saving 110k which means you are living off 22.5k?

You have a mortgage for a "big house", a boat, and long commute by car. Housing expenses on say 150K for a large house in rural MO is 9k per year. Are you are not counting income from side gigs, gifts, or employer matching? Maybe you are getting a lot of "freebies" you are not counting like MMM and his 30k renovation, new car, or vacations?

I am genuinely interested how you can live a "six figure" lifestyle for something around 15k after housing expenses.

company matches and ESOP contributions count into that 170k number and these arent taxable either.  that tax assumption seems to be way off as well.  with deduction etc. our taxable income is down to around 85k and our taxes are around 13k federal and 5k state.

posts like these make me want to start blogs about optimizing.  if i were to just list out my lifestyle everyone here would say No F'n way you're saving 67% of around 170k gross on that but yes ... yes we are.


I don't want to harp on this, but Border was so free with the face punching earlier in the thread. I was reading another thread (race from 1MM to 2MM) and just randomly saw this:

this is the right place.  my number is around 2MM we spend around 50-60k plus our mortgage.  but we wont hit 1MM til 2020 so it will be awhile before we're here.

Dude. Your numbers don't add up:

55k (spending) + 110k+ Savings + 18K Taxes = 183k + mortgage for a big house on a lake

honeybbq

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #239 on: June 21, 2017, 09:24:27 AM »
Apparently my link didn't paste into my last post, so here it is again:

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/house,condo,townhouse_type/2-_beds/1-_baths/0-400000_price/0-1468_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/47.762638,-121.951332,47.463147,-122.738228_rect/10_zm/

Well over 500 results in the Seattle area under $400,000.

Now, some will be condos or townhomes, some will be single family dwellings.  Some will be foreclosed and actively on the market, others will be foreclosed and you have to contact the bank to buy them.  Some will be bogus due to them being auctions or mis-coded rentals.

I use this website to find likely properties in my market and, although not perfect, it's good enough to find bargains.

But a spot check on the results shows some nice looking properties below $400,000.

95% of those properties aren't actually in Seattle. That big swath of empty with 2 foreclosures in it - that is Seattle. Anything across water is a 1hr+ commute. I said Seattle. You're showing me 100 square miles. Did you look at the link I posted of Seattle proper?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 09:32:41 AM by honeybbq »

honeybbq

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #240 on: June 21, 2017, 09:25:59 AM »



Perhaps a review of this MMM article would be in order?

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/26/cure-yourself-of-tiny-details-exaggeration-syndrome/



That is in west Seattle, not Seattle proper.  You don't know the area, and it's showing. It's fine. Continue on.
Did you look at the link I posted of the 3 zip codes nearest me with 500k? Would you like to retort on that? Or continue googling areas no where near Seattle proper?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 09:27:58 AM by honeybbq »

honeybbq

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #241 on: June 21, 2017, 09:29:38 AM »
Here you go, sword. Here's a charmer in WEST seattle for $427k. Can't wait to move my family in there.
"A West Seattle house so dilapidated that potential buyers weren’t allowed to go inside recently sold for $427,000, more than twice the listing price."

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/this-mold-house-decaying-home-too-dangerous-to-enter-sparks-insane-bidding/






SustainableStache

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #242 on: June 21, 2017, 10:02:33 AM »
My wife and I make $117,000 combined and we save 30% of our net income. This is with a $3,112 monthly bill for two toddlers in day care. Once they're in the public elementary school, our savings rate will hit 50%.

mizzourah2006

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #243 on: June 21, 2017, 11:07:27 AM »
We are in the group of people making ~$150k saving right around 50%, but a little under. This year we paid off our second car and with that payment we are on pace to spend about $65k. If you count just monthly recurring expenses we are closer to $52-$53k in expenses, but paying a lump sum of cash for a car still counts as an expense in my book. Also, another expense that has pushed ours up over the past few years is hospital bills. 2 years ago was a birth, last year the little one had RSV, which cost us $5.5k, etc. I'd really love to know how to optimize that :) We are on pace to save $60k this year in retirement and investments and if you count actual savings accounts and college savings we are going to be closer to $70k. Our major expenses are daycare ($9.2k) and PITI ($12.75k). So of our monthly expenses (I count every expense that happens in the month) we are looking at those 2 accounting for 41% of our yearly expenses if you don't count paying for the car and 34% if you do count the car cost.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 11:09:07 AM by mizzourah2006 »

afuera

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #244 on: June 21, 2017, 02:13:45 PM »
we're around 160k-170k gross income and invest around 110k+ annually -  always trying to squeeze more out. variance is due to my bonus structure at work.  more bonus more money into savings. if you were to count house equity gain that savings goes up more but its not something i count.

I'm going to call BS on this. Let's say you make 170k and can both contribute the max (36k) to pretax 401k's and 6.7k to an HSA; So your Taxable income is 127k. In Missouri you pay about 37.5k in taxes.

So of your 170k you are working with 132.5k after taxes and saving 110k which means you are living off 22.5k?

You have a mortgage for a "big house", a boat, and long commute by car. Housing expenses on say 150K for a large house in rural MO is 9k per year. Are you are not counting income from side gigs, gifts, or employer matching? Maybe you are getting a lot of "freebies" you are not counting like MMM and his 30k renovation, new car, or vacations?

I am genuinely interested how you can live a "six figure" lifestyle for something around 15k after housing expenses.

company matches and ESOP contributions count into that 170k number and these arent taxable either.  that tax assumption seems to be way off as well.  with deduction etc. our taxable income is down to around 85k and our taxes are around 13k federal and 5k state.

posts like these make me want to start blogs about optimizing.  if i were to just list out my lifestyle everyone here would say No F'n way you're saving 67% of around 170k gross on that but yes ... yes we are.


I don't want to harp on this, but Border was so free with the face punching earlier in the thread. I was reading another thread (race from 1MM to 2MM) and just randomly saw this:

this is the right place.  my number is around 2MM we spend around 50-60k plus our mortgage.  but we wont hit 1MM til 2020 so it will be awhile before we're here.

Dude. Your numbers don't add up:

55k (spending) + 110k+ Savings + 18K Taxes = 183k + mortgage for a big house on a lake

He hasn't posted in this thread since you originally did the math on his numbers.  I guess he is comfortable ridiculing others for their spending but once someone starts digging into his spending he clams up.  hmm.
"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it" - Henry David Thoreau

6/2017: INV-3.4x, NW-5.0x
Projected FIRE date: 2025
Journal.

dcamnc

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #245 on: June 21, 2017, 02:20:41 PM »
65k, I save about 55% or so of gross.

Prairie Stash

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #246 on: June 21, 2017, 02:47:13 PM »
Quote
If you had the money, which some did, people made small fortunes from recognizing what happens when wages are out of sync with expenses for an area.

Prairie Stash, as an aside, can you please tell me more about this? I'm in one of those areas where wages for many no longer touch basic living (shelter) costs, such that lots of "regular" people are becoming homeless. How were some folks making money in these scenarios, pre-adjustment?
The easiest is when wages exceed housing costs; a sign to buy real estate. Take ARS as an example, he was picking up houses cheap because wages in his area remained constant (Las Vegas) but housing plummeted. Then when things revert to normal you're sitting on a house worth an average amount that you purchased at a discount. Detroit, not so much, since wages and houses plummeted at the same time. The key difference is identifying areas where the wages stayed strong, in Detroit too many people lost work and that wasn't good for anyone.

In your scenario, housing exceeding wages. Historically that's a time to sell your house unless you can identify actual reasons why its sustainable (Vancouver has no room for growth due to geography, as does San Francisco, there are local factors at play). The homeless didn't own houses before hand, they will remain poor. The working poor who had houses can profit if they sell and move, if they don't sell and move that's their personal decision. Its not free money, there are choices that need to be made. In Canada this is a hot button topic in Vancouver among baby boomers, they bought houses 20 years ago and some have multi million dollar gains. The debate is whether prices will return to a long term trend or not, do you sell and lock in gains or keep waiting for it to go ever higher?

Please remember, I said its best to have money before the discrepancy occurs. Being poor before doesn't help, there isn't opportunity to profit in either scenario. Being poor always puts you at a disadvantage, recognizing the market cycle doesn't change anything if you can't profit from it. I'm not saying the system is fair or mean, its just an example of how some people profit.

Also remember, cycles don't just last a year or two, some can run a decade or longer. The housing boom that ended in 2008 took several years to form, most people are impatient and want immediate changes.

SwordGuy

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #247 on: June 21, 2017, 04:46:50 PM »
honeybbq,

This official document shows the boundaries of the city of Seattle:

http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/Research/gis/webplots/smallzonemap.pdf


I originally did the Seattle metro area as that's what many people would mean by Seattle.  You later said you wanted to limit your search to just 3 zip codes.   Hey, if you want to buy your houses where they are most expensive in town, that's your business.   But it doesn't make it true to say that one can't buy a home in Seattle city limits for less.

This link shows homes in Seattle using the same boundaries that the government of Seattle does:

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Seattle-WA/house_type/16037_rid/2-_beds/1-_baths/0-400000_price/0-1468_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/47.854638,-121.904984,47.370454,-122.78389_rect/9_zm/

There are some MUCH nicer properties listed there that are move-in ready and below the $400,000 threshold.   Plus there are homes in pre-foreclosure status where you might get a great deal.

This book covers some of the techniques real estate investors use to harvest an area for properties with really good deals:

https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Real-Estate-Investor/dp/0071446370/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1498083660&sr=8-1&keywords=millionaire+real+estate+investor


You might want to learn how the pros do it and potentially save yourself a bundle.

Here's another look at the exact same area, but instead of looking at properties that might be bought, this lists properties that were recently sold:

https://www.zillow.com/homes/recently_sold/Seattle-WA/house_type/16037_rid/2-_beds/1-_baths/0-399994_price/0-1468_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/47.748557,-122.13604,47.506533,-122.575493_rect/10_zm/

Note that there are over THREE THOUSAND dwellings that fairly recently sold for under $400,000.    THREE THOUSAND.
This is data that's pulled from public and private commercial data.   Some of those sales will actually be apartments instead of homes.    Doesn't matter because quite a few of them are homes and those homes looked to be in nice shape.

I own six single family homes.   I only bought one of them at retail prices.  That was 16 years ago and I didn't know any better.

The next 4 were bought (and made move-in-able pretty quickly where needed) for the following percentages of retail value: 
51.2%
52.5%
43.5%
68.9%

#6 is a badly damaged property bought for a slow flip, so not applicable for this discussion.

Now, you're in a hotter market than I am, so you'll have to hustle harder to find a deal.

But the deals are most likely there if you (a) know how to find them and (b) put in the effort to do so.

By the way, I'm not saying that I'm a real estate "expert".  I'm not.  I'm a pretty raw beginner.   I've barely touched a small fraction of the techniques I've learned since I started investing in real estate.

So, those of you reading have a choice.  You can give up on finding a deal and either never buy or pay full retail (or more).   Or you can learn how to find and structure real estate deals.   

And even if it turns out that you're right, there truly are no deals in your area, you'll know how to find deals in other areas.  Maybe you'll be able to FIRE in less than 10 years with a host of rental properties in other cities like one of our moderators (ARebelSpy) did on two public school teacher salaries.




jooniFLORisploo

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #248 on: June 21, 2017, 05:45:55 PM »
Prairie Stash: Thanks!! :)

SwordGuy

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #249 on: June 21, 2017, 05:58:37 PM »
The easiest is when wages exceed housing costs; a sign to buy real estate. ...
That's a solid analysis.  Thanks!