Poll

What's your income level and savings rate?

$0-$50k - 0%-20%
$0-$50k - 20%-50%
$0-$50k - 50%+
$50-$75k - 0%-20%
$50-$75k - 20%-50%
$50-$75k - 50%+
$75-$100k - 0%-20%
$75-$100k - 20%-50%
$75-$100k - 50%+
>$100k - 0%-20%
>$100k - 20%-50%
>$100k - 50%+

Author Topic: What's your income level and savings rate?  (Read 16350 times)

boarder42

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #150 on: June 16, 2017, 07:06:08 AM »
do none of you get the zoolander reference its been stated quite a few times.

PM me about how to save 6% on your annual grocery Bill!

There is a 35k starwood bonus right now as well. PM me for the info.

Fire2025

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #151 on: June 16, 2017, 08:06:51 AM »
I don't count the money in my savings account toward my savings rate. FIRE is my goal, so all that really counts is what's going to the stache.  The savings account is short term future spending (i.e. house and garage remodel/build) so I just have never thought of it in terms of savings rate.

I also never thought of my employer match in my savings rate, but I'm going to add that in in the future.  It's money going to the stache so...it fits my self defined description of savings.  WooHoo!! 

Teachstache

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #152 on: June 16, 2017, 08:14:59 AM »
do none of you get the zoolander reference its been stated quite a few times.

Yeah, boarder, I DO get it. As a reading specialist, it's one of my favorite tongue in cheek references. The sentiment behind your statements isn't quite as humorous.

Bird In Hand

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #153 on: June 16, 2017, 08:16:21 AM »
do none of you get the zoolander reference its been stated quite a few times.

I'll only speak for myself: I didn't get the Zoolander reference (I watched that movie many years ago and apparently it didn't leave much of an impression on me).  Subsequently it was pointed out that it was a reference, which I took note of.

Teachstache's point is that there's a difference between knowing about something and understanding it through experience.  Our understanding shapes our actions and behavior, and that includes spending choices when it comes to what we believe is best for our children.

Sometimes hypothetical optimal choices don't relate well to real-world decisions people have to make about their real children.  Referencing the previous discussion about child care costs, just because some online document says the range of cost is $1,300-$2,100 or whatever, doesn't mean that it's "unmustachian" if someone ends up paying near or above the top of that range.  It could be that the $1,300 options are suboptimal for a number of reasons: poor care, far away from home/work, etc.  Likewise, it could simply be that a very expensive option is more optimal in some respects: on-site at the parent's workplace, staff with specialized training for non-neurotypical kids, better security/safety, etc.

I hope you can understand that child care isn't solely a financial transaction subject to optimization where minimal cost is the only constraint.

boarder42

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #154 on: June 16, 2017, 08:31:14 AM »
I don't count the money in my savings account toward my savings rate. FIRE is my goal, so all that really counts is what's going to the stache.  The savings account is short term future spending (i.e. house and garage remodel/build) so I just have never thought of it in terms of savings rate.

I also never thought of my employer match in my savings rate, but I'm going to add that in in the future.  It's money going to the stache so...it fits my self defined description of savings.  WooHoo!!

yep this is the way to do it.  just make sure you put that match on both sides of the equation.  counts as income and additional savings.
PM me about how to save 6% on your annual grocery Bill!

There is a 35k starwood bonus right now as well. PM me for the info.

honeybbq

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #155 on: June 16, 2017, 08:43:21 AM »


I have a child in day care in a HCOLA, I think that makes my post on how much daycare ACTUALLY costs a lot more valid than your random internet browser search.

But just to show you I can 'google' too:

The average cost for full time care in NYC ranges from $1,300-$2,500/month. Centers typically charge more for younger children because they require more care and attention (diaper changes, feeding help, etc.). Costs for infant and toddler care averages $1,800/month in NYC.
Child Care Centers - NYU
https://www.nyu.edu/employees/life...care/child-care/...children/child-care-centers.html


I'm a Manhattan nanny, so I'm fully aware of how much childcare CAN cost, if you let it. (My entire salary!)

Note, the source I found said $1354 average. (and I didn't cherry pick. I just used the first source)
The source you picked said $1800/mo average

Your original claim was $2500. You realize that even if you use your own source that's still too much.

When they (the source YOU quoted) say the NYC childcare cost RANGES from $1300-$2500, no Mustachian would budget for the HIGHEST amount in the range.

These are old data. MY center is $2500 a month in a HCOLA. Other areas are similar. No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare to save a few dollars if it was important to them.

Prairie Stash

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #156 on: June 16, 2017, 09:41:11 AM »


I have a child in day care in a HCOLA, I think that makes my post on how much daycare ACTUALLY costs a lot more valid than your random internet browser search.

But just to show you I can 'google' too:

The average cost for full time care in NYC ranges from $1,300-$2,500/month. Centers typically charge more for younger children because they require more care and attention (diaper changes, feeding help, etc.). Costs for infant and toddler care averages $1,800/month in NYC.
Child Care Centers - NYU
https://www.nyu.edu/employees/life...care/child-care/...children/child-care-centers.html


I'm a Manhattan nanny, so I'm fully aware of how much childcare CAN cost, if you let it. (My entire salary!)

Note, the source I found said $1354 average. (and I didn't cherry pick. I just used the first source)
The source you picked said $1800/mo average

Your original claim was $2500. You realize that even if you use your own source that's still too much.

When they (the source YOU quoted) say the NYC childcare cost RANGES from $1300-$2500, no Mustachian would budget for the HIGHEST amount in the range.

These are old data. MY center is $2500 a month in a HCOLA. Other areas are similar. No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare to save a few dollars if it was important to them.
The original point is valid, some of us are extremely clever and have found cheaper alternatives. Before taking a stand, maybe look at the message and realize that a lot of us have found cheaper alternatives without compromising our children's welfare.

Having tried the larger centers I was extremely disappointed with the illness rate compared to private care. How often does your child get sick? My last center was predominantly the children of lawyers, engineers, doctors and you could count on regular exposures to pink eye, flu and loads of childhood illnesses, some picked up overseas from vacations which the affluent seem to take more of. It turns out, in my experience, the smaller day homes have lower illness rates and save money, have you tried both? Next time your little one is sick just think, your choices also influence their health.

shawndoggy

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #157 on: June 16, 2017, 09:44:24 AM »
The bands on the savings rates are kinda whack.  20-50% is quite a range.  48% is a lot more than 20.

honeybbq

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #158 on: June 16, 2017, 09:45:21 AM »


I have a child in day care in a HCOLA, I think that makes my post on how much daycare ACTUALLY costs a lot more valid than your random internet browser search.

But just to show you I can 'google' too:

The average cost for full time care in NYC ranges from $1,300-$2,500/month. Centers typically charge more for younger children because they require more care and attention (diaper changes, feeding help, etc.). Costs for infant and toddler care averages $1,800/month in NYC.
Child Care Centers - NYU
https://www.nyu.edu/employees/life...care/child-care/...children/child-care-centers.html


I'm a Manhattan nanny, so I'm fully aware of how much childcare CAN cost, if you let it. (My entire salary!)

Note, the source I found said $1354 average. (and I didn't cherry pick. I just used the first source)
The source you picked said $1800/mo average

Your original claim was $2500. You realize that even if you use your own source that's still too much.

When they (the source YOU quoted) say the NYC childcare cost RANGES from $1300-$2500, no Mustachian would budget for the HIGHEST amount in the range.

These are old data. MY center is $2500 a month in a HCOLA. Other areas are similar. No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare to save a few dollars if it was important to them.
The original point is valid, some of us are extremely clever and have found cheaper alternatives. Before taking a stand, maybe look at the message and realize that a lot of us have found cheaper alternatives without compromising our children's welfare.

Having tried the larger centers I was extremely disappointed with the illness rate compared to private care. How often does your child get sick? My last center was predominantly the children of lawyers, engineers, doctors and you could count on regular exposures to pink eye, flu and loads of childhood illnesses, some picked up overseas from vacations which the affluent seem to take more of. It turns out, in my experience, the smaller day homes have lower illness rates and save money, have you tried both? Next time your little one is sick just think, your choices also influence their health.

My kiddo is extremely healthy. I think with hand sanitizers, required washing of hands before entering and leaving, and no shoes inside policy - it's a cleaner and more regulated environment. They are required to clean toys and common areas every night. No room for hiding germs at all... She's been sick once or twice over the years, but nothing serious. There are a lot more benefits to a large center IMO than a small private house but that's probably for another thread.

Scortius

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #159 on: June 16, 2017, 09:58:03 AM »
What is the minimum SR needed to be a true Mustachian?

I'd say it has much more to do with spending that saving. And I'd put it around 40k with housing for a family of 4. Even if doubled for high col area it's only 80k

Here's what 220k gross in a HCOLA looks like:
50k taxes
40k housing (2bd/2ba apt)
15k daycare (this is in-home; would be 25k at a daycare center)
15k support for a relative (non-negotiable for us)
70k savings
30k everything else

Our 30k spend after fixed costs isn't too far off from MMM family's 25k. With both of us working, we do pay for some conveniences, but it's worth it to us with a crazy toddler.

Savings rate: 70k/170k(net) = 41%, or 70k/220k(gross) = 32%

See, I think this is a great argument to show how well you can do.  First of all, you're saving 70k per year!  Second of all, if you count the 15k support as money set aside and not spent on yourself, you're really spending half of your post-tax income, which is pretty darn similar to achieving a 50% savings rate.

prognastat

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #160 on: June 16, 2017, 09:59:24 AM »
I have to say I'm with Boarder on this one too. I come to this forum for a sense of community where rampant consumerism and excuses for spending aren't constantly made. Since I don't have any mustachians around my in my day to day life it is actually easy to see how my frame of reference could be shifted towards higher spending simply by human nature making me want to fit in with those around me.

I don't come here to hear excuses for spending and be told how there is no need to strive to do better when you have a 25% savings when you make 200k a year. You do realize that MMM advocates optimizing just about every choice and not just saying oh spending more is better. That is the whole point of his website and the forum. It is one thing to say I am not able to do these things like many here do, however it is another to say that there is no need to strive to do better and that sometimes you shouldn't try to optimize your financial choices.

Although I haven't been actively posting here for forever I have been lurking and intermittently posting here for the past 3 years and have definitely noticed a shift towards people complaining about face punches and how the community has to be more accepting of people that aren't willing to strive towards mustachianism the way outlined in the blog. We are at about 60% savings rate at just over 100k and I have to admit that even at that I could be doing better, but I'm not advocating that others should not call me out on these and try to help me do better.

Also people are going to be a lot more accepting of a sub 50% savings rate on a 50k income than when you are making over 100k and still aren't. It's not just about savings rate it is also about spending. The median household income in the US is 50k, saying you absolutely need to spend 150k is ridiculous.

YoungGranny

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #161 on: June 16, 2017, 10:06:33 AM »
The bands on the savings rates are kinda whack.  20-50% is quite a range.  48% is a lot more than 20.

I know the bands are quite large but my intention was just to get an idea of how many lower income people have a modest savings rate of 0-20% versus stepping it up to be more aggressive than normal versus a more extreme rate of 50% which on smaller incomes is rather impressive.

To be perfectly honest even the salary bands could be expanded quite a bit. I didn't think this poll would get over 500 responses. When I created it I was thinking I'd get perhaps 2 dozen responses and with too many options the data would have been fairly inconclusive and not credible.

Prairie Stash

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #162 on: June 16, 2017, 10:42:11 AM »


My kiddo is extremely healthy. I think with hand sanitizers, required washing of hands before entering and leaving, and no shoes inside policy - it's a cleaner and more regulated environment. They are required to clean toys and common areas every night. No room for hiding germs at all... She's been sick once or twice over the years, but nothing serious. There are a lot more benefits to a large center IMO than a small private house but that's probably for another thread.
We can reach common ground, both small and large centers have benefits, I've tried both and can see both sides. I'm of the opinion it depends on the child, you'll never convince me its black and white. I know very well the procedures in place at centers, having attended one, do you think a two year old regularly uses hand sanitizer though?  The route of infection has never been the workers.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1349981/  A link for anyone interested in the science of illness among respective daycare choices. Even with the sanitizer the science shows its a dirty environment primarily due to exposure routes, germs don't need to hide they get transmitted directly.

However, paying $30,000/child/year is on the high end. Actively pushing that anyone who isn't paying $2500 is harming their children is elitism. In the poll you have many people making $30,000 and you're comment that "No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare" speaks of a heightened sense of entitlement. Are you actually saying that my cheaper childcare choice is bad for my children?

However, if you concede that my choice might be equally decent, then you have the uncomfortable position that I'm doing equally well for my children at a substantially lower cost. So which is it, am I harming my children or is my lower cost choice equally valid? I'll gladly say that you're children are being given great opportunities, I'm not disputing your choice is right for you. Will you extend the same courtesy?

You asked Boarder to admit if they're wrong. Will you do the same or double down on saying that I'm cheap and that my childcare isn't important to me.

Scortius

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #163 on: June 16, 2017, 11:05:43 AM »


My kiddo is extremely healthy. I think with hand sanitizers, required washing of hands before entering and leaving, and no shoes inside policy - it's a cleaner and more regulated environment. They are required to clean toys and common areas every night. No room for hiding germs at all... She's been sick once or twice over the years, but nothing serious. There are a lot more benefits to a large center IMO than a small private house but that's probably for another thread.
We can reach common ground, both small and large centers have benefits, I've tried both and can see both sides. I'm of the opinion it depends on the child, you'll never convince me its black and white. I know very well the procedures in place at centers, having attended one, do you think a two year old regularly uses hand sanitizer though?  The route of infection has never been the workers.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1349981/  A link for anyone interested in the science of illness among respective daycare choices. Even with the sanitizer the science shows its a dirty environment primarily due to exposure routes, germs don't need to hide they get transmitted directly.

However, paying $30,000/child/year is on the high end. Actively pushing that anyone who isn't paying $2500 is harming their children is elitism. In the poll you have many people making $30,000 and you're comment that "No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare" speaks of a heightened sense of entitlement. Are you actually saying that my cheaper childcare choice is bad for my children?

However, if you concede that my choice might be equally decent, then you have the uncomfortable position that I'm doing equally well for my children at a substantially lower cost. So which is it, am I harming my children or is my lower cost choice equally valid? I'll gladly say that you're children are being given great opportunities, I'm not disputing your choice is right for you. Will you extend the same courtesy?

You asked Boarder to admit if they're wrong. Will you do the same or double down on saying that I'm cheap and that my childcare isn't important to me.

Meh, your argument doesn't really hold water.  It's quite possible that the $2,500/mo day care does provide a marginally better service than a cheaper one.  It doesn't mean you're cheap for not spending that much, but it doesn't make honeybbq 'elitist' for choosing to spend for that marginal return.

I think it's important here to read MMM's Ivy League Preschool post.  I do agree that the benefits of these fancy preschools with individual study plans for toddlers through pre-K provide marginal benefits over simpler preschools that allow the kids to have lots of playground time interspersed with various arts and crafts, read-along, and free play activities.

talltexan

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #164 on: June 16, 2017, 12:50:55 PM »
If the debate is still open about what savings rate is the minimum to be "mustachian", how about we reframe it in terms of opposition.

All of us face opposition from a culture that exalts consumerism. Some of us also face other forces--personal habits, upbringing, spousal choices, family interactions--that put us in different places as far as what savings rate is possible. Some of us might well be meeting help from these forces, while others are meeting resistance.

But we are here to interact with people who share the value of finding happiness from something other than spending money. In addition, we are concerned about generating less pollution that affects everyone. Our communications are in the context of these values, with the savings rate being a result, not a cause. So, if you seek a path that runs counter to consumerism, THAT is what makes you a mustachian, NOT any particular savings rate.

Optimiser

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #165 on: June 16, 2017, 01:24:20 PM »
I have to say I'm with Boarder on this one too. I come to this forum for a sense of community where rampant consumerism and excuses for spending aren't constantly made. Since I don't have any mustachians around my in my day to day life it is actually easy to see how my frame of reference could be shifted towards higher spending simply by human nature making me want to fit in with those around me.

I don't come here to hear excuses for spending and be told how there is no need to strive to do better when you have a 25% savings when you make 200k a year. You do realize that MMM advocates optimizing just about every choice and not just saying oh spending more is better. That is the whole point of his website and the forum. It is one thing to say I am not able to do these things like many here do, however it is another to say that there is no need to strive to do better and that sometimes you shouldn't try to optimize your financial choices.

Although I haven't been actively posting here for forever I have been lurking and intermittently posting here for the past 3 years and have definitely noticed a shift towards people complaining about face punches and how the community has to be more accepting of people that aren't willing to strive towards mustachianism the way outlined in the blog. We are at about 60% savings rate at just over 100k and I have to admit that even at that I could be doing better, but I'm not advocating that others should not call me out on these and try to help me do better.

Also people are going to be a lot more accepting of a sub 50% savings rate on a 50k income than when you are making over 100k and still aren't. It's not just about savings rate it is also about spending. The median household income in the US is 50k, saying you absolutely need to spend 150k is ridiculous.

+1

There is way to much justification for high spending going on around here for site based on living an awesome life for around 25k a year(+housing).

ixtap

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #166 on: June 16, 2017, 01:36:49 PM »
I have to say I'm with Boarder on this one too. I come to this forum for a sense of community where rampant consumerism and excuses for spending aren't constantly made. Since I don't have any mustachians around my in my day to day life it is actually easy to see how my frame of reference could be shifted towards higher spending simply by human nature making me want to fit in with those around me.

I don't come here to hear excuses for spending and be told how there is no need to strive to do better when you have a 25% savings when you make 200k a year. You do realize that MMM advocates optimizing just about every choice and not just saying oh spending more is better. That is the whole point of his website and the forum. It is one thing to say I am not able to do these things like many here do, however it is another to say that there is no need to strive to do better and that sometimes you shouldn't try to optimize your financial choices.

Although I haven't been actively posting here for forever I have been lurking and intermittently posting here for the past 3 years and have definitely noticed a shift towards people complaining about face punches and how the community has to be more accepting of people that aren't willing to strive towards mustachianism the way outlined in the blog. We are at about 60% savings rate at just over 100k and I have to admit that even at that I could be doing better, but I'm not advocating that others should not call me out on these and try to help me do better.

Also people are going to be a lot more accepting of a sub 50% savings rate on a 50k income than when you are making over 100k and still aren't. It's not just about savings rate it is also about spending. The median household income in the US is 50k, saying you absolutely need to spend 150k is ridiculous.

+1

There is way to much justification for high spending going on around here for site based on living an awesome life for around 25k a year(+housing).

Even MMM didn't find that life sustainable and found creative ways to justify more spending, what do you expect of mere mortals?

Prairie Stash

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #167 on: June 16, 2017, 01:56:40 PM »


My kiddo is extremely healthy. I think with hand sanitizers, required washing of hands before entering and leaving, and no shoes inside policy - it's a cleaner and more regulated environment. They are required to clean toys and common areas every night. No room for hiding germs at all... She's been sick once or twice over the years, but nothing serious. There are a lot more benefits to a large center IMO than a small private house but that's probably for another thread.
We can reach common ground, both small and large centers have benefits, I've tried both and can see both sides. I'm of the opinion it depends on the child, you'll never convince me its black and white. I know very well the procedures in place at centers, having attended one, do you think a two year old regularly uses hand sanitizer though?  The route of infection has never been the workers.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1349981/  A link for anyone interested in the science of illness among respective daycare choices. Even with the sanitizer the science shows its a dirty environment primarily due to exposure routes, germs don't need to hide they get transmitted directly.

However, paying $30,000/child/year is on the high end. Actively pushing that anyone who isn't paying $2500 is harming their children is elitism. In the poll you have many people making $30,000 and you're comment that "No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare" speaks of a heightened sense of entitlement. Are you actually saying that my cheaper childcare choice is bad for my children?

However, if you concede that my choice might be equally decent, then you have the uncomfortable position that I'm doing equally well for my children at a substantially lower cost. So which is it, am I harming my children or is my lower cost choice equally valid? I'll gladly say that you're children are being given great opportunities, I'm not disputing your choice is right for you. Will you extend the same courtesy?

You asked Boarder to admit if they're wrong. Will you do the same or double down on saying that I'm cheap and that my childcare isn't important to me.

Meh, your argument doesn't really hold water.  It's quite possible that the $2,500/mo day care does provide a marginally better service than a cheaper one.  It doesn't mean you're cheap for not spending that much, but it doesn't make honeybbq 'elitist' for choosing to spend for that marginal return.

I think it's important here to read MMM's Ivy League Preschool post.  I do agree that the benefits of these fancy preschools with individual study plans for toddlers through pre-K provide marginal benefits over simpler preschools that allow the kids to have lots of playground time interspersed with various arts and crafts, read-along, and free play activities.
Calling someone cheap is elite. It wasn't their actions, its the judgement they passed on people who spend less. Most of this forum can't spend $2500/month, they're not being cheap. Of those that can spend that amount and choose no to, they're also not being cheap, they're being frugal. Frugal is the conscious decision to spend less because you've weighed the marginal benefits of spending more. Cheap is what you call people when you want to be insulting or show disdain.

YoungGranny

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #168 on: June 16, 2017, 02:04:43 PM »
I have to say I'm with Boarder on this one too. I come to this forum for a sense of community where rampant consumerism and excuses for spending aren't constantly made. Since I don't have any mustachians around my in my day to day life it is actually easy to see how my frame of reference could be shifted towards higher spending simply by human nature making me want to fit in with those around me.

I don't come here to hear excuses for spending and be told how there is no need to strive to do better when you have a 25% savings when you make 200k a year. You do realize that MMM advocates optimizing just about every choice and not just saying oh spending more is better. That is the whole point of his website and the forum. It is one thing to say I am not able to do these things like many here do, however it is another to say that there is no need to strive to do better and that sometimes you shouldn't try to optimize your financial choices.

Although I haven't been actively posting here for forever I have been lurking and intermittently posting here for the past 3 years and have definitely noticed a shift towards people complaining about face punches and how the community has to be more accepting of people that aren't willing to strive towards mustachianism the way outlined in the blog. We are at about 60% savings rate at just over 100k and I have to admit that even at that I could be doing better, but I'm not advocating that others should not call me out on these and try to help me do better.

Also people are going to be a lot more accepting of a sub 50% savings rate on a 50k income than when you are making over 100k and still aren't. It's not just about savings rate it is also about spending. The median household income in the US is 50k, saying you absolutely need to spend 150k is ridiculous.

+1

There is way to much justification for high spending going on around here for site based on living an awesome life for around 25k a year(+housing).

I would say my spendy-pants is at around $30k a year +housing. I really should post a case study someday, I know I'd get ripped to shreds (which is why I've avoided doing it so far). I agree that you can live super-duper-extremely well at this amount. Perhaps we need a Case Study section we're people with low annual expenses share their lifestyle so we can all be in awe on how happy people's lives are on less money. That was kind of my intent with this survey I've helped 2 people I know IRL budget with a $50k salary and they told me I couldn't relate because I'm a higher income earner - I wanted to see how savings rates changed by individuals but perhaps that's not the best metic.  So now I'm thinking what you make is somewhat irrelevant and focusing on what you spend could perhaps spark an interesting conversation.

respond2u

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #169 on: June 16, 2017, 02:09:34 PM »
If the debate is still open about what savings rate is the minimum to be "mustachian", how about we reframe it in terms of opposition.

All of us face opposition from a culture that exalts consumerism. ...

Is it the savings rate that makes one mustachian, or the spending decisions? Whether I make 50K or 300K, seems to me looking for healthy ways to reduce or control spending seems to be the MMM way. Remember when he bought that CO2 tank for his soda water?

They've got so much income nowadays that I think Root Of Good is probably a better "frugal living" examplar, but paying attention to spending seems to be the common theme.

prognastat

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #170 on: June 16, 2017, 02:19:46 PM »
If the debate is still open about what savings rate is the minimum to be "mustachian", how about we reframe it in terms of opposition.

All of us face opposition from a culture that exalts consumerism. ...

Is it the savings rate that makes one mustachian, or the spending decisions? Whether I make 50K or 300K, seems to me looking for healthy ways to reduce or control spending seems to be the MMM way. Remember when he bought that CO2 tank for his soda water?

They've got so much income nowadays that I think Root Of Good is probably a better "frugal living" examplar, but paying attention to spending seems to be the common theme.

To me it is a combination of the two. Kind of like a sliding scale. If you have very low income I'm not expecting your savings rate to be as high as when you have a very high savings rate since your expenses don't have to scale 1:1 with your income.

If you spend 200k a year, but make 1.000.000 a year. I'll probably say you could spend less, but I won't judge it the way I would judge someone spending 100k a year when they make 150k a year so obviously it's not only spending since both are spending the same and both can technically afford the spending. In the same trend I would actually respect someone who is saving 25% on 50k a lot more than someone saving 25% on 200k.

ixtap

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #171 on: June 16, 2017, 02:26:23 PM »
Silly me, I thought the goal was for everyone to find ways to improve their own situation, rather than meeting arbitrary goals set by pseudonymous posters on the internet.

marcela

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #172 on: June 16, 2017, 02:27:42 PM »
I have to say I'm with Boarder on this one too. I come to this forum for a sense of community where rampant consumerism and excuses for spending aren't constantly made. Since I don't have any mustachians around my in my day to day life it is actually easy to see how my frame of reference could be shifted towards higher spending simply by human nature making me want to fit in with those around me.

I don't come here to hear excuses for spending and be told how there is no need to strive to do better when you have a 25% savings when you make 200k a year. You do realize that MMM advocates optimizing just about every choice and not just saying oh spending more is better. That is the whole point of his website and the forum. It is one thing to say I am not able to do these things like many here do, however it is another to say that there is no need to strive to do better and that sometimes you shouldn't try to optimize your financial choices.

Although I haven't been actively posting here for forever I have been lurking and intermittently posting here for the past 3 years and have definitely noticed a shift towards people complaining about face punches and how the community has to be more accepting of people that aren't willing to strive towards mustachianism the way outlined in the blog. We are at about 60% savings rate at just over 100k and I have to admit that even at that I could be doing better, but I'm not advocating that others should not call me out on these and try to help me do better.

Also people are going to be a lot more accepting of a sub 50% savings rate on a 50k income than when you are making over 100k and still aren't. It's not just about savings rate it is also about spending. The median household income in the US is 50k, saying you absolutely need to spend 150k is ridiculous.

+1

There is way to much justification for high spending going on around here for site based on living an awesome life for around 25k a year(+housing).

I would say my spendy-pants is at around $30k a year +housing. I really should post a case study someday, I know I'd get ripped to shreds (which is why I've avoided doing it so far). I agree that you can live super-duper-extremely well at this amount. Perhaps we need a Case Study section we're people with low annual expenses share their lifestyle so we can all be in awe on how happy people's lives are on less money. That was kind of my intent with this survey I've helped 2 people I know IRL budget with a $50k salary and they told me I couldn't relate because I'm a higher income earner - I wanted to see how savings rates changed by individuals but perhaps that's not the best metic.  So now I'm thinking what you make is somewhat irrelevant and focusing on what you spend could perhaps spark an interesting conversation.

My case study from 2 years ago shows my annual expenses at around $19,000. I had just gotten a new job making 55k, but most of my expenses were from when I was making 38k. This was household income for 2 adults. I was just about at 50% SR.

prognastat

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #173 on: June 16, 2017, 02:35:45 PM »
Silly me, I thought the goal was for everyone to find ways to improve their own situation, rather than meeting arbitrary goals set by pseudonymous posters on the internet.

I hear a lot of complainypantsing.

If you've read much of the blog you'll know MMM isn't some kind of relativist when it comes to spending. He judges people for increasing their spending as their income grows and advocates that his family of 3 spending 25k a year + housing cost/paid off house is the right thing to do. He also argues that you should drive as little as possible and instead use a bicycle. He sets very specific goals he wants to convince people of.

I'm not judging people for not being able to live just like MMM, I judge them for making excuses about how it is simply impossible to improve their spending/savings when they spend orders of magnitude more than even than that.


ixtap

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #174 on: June 16, 2017, 02:48:57 PM »
Silly me, I thought the goal was for everyone to find ways to improve their own situation, rather than meeting arbitrary goals set by pseudonymous posters on the internet.

I hear a lot of complainypantsing.

If you've read much of the blog you'll know MMM isn't some kind of relativist when it comes to spending. He judges people for increasing their spending as their income grows and advocates that his family of 3 spending 25k a year + housing cost/paid off house is the right thing to do. He also argues that you should drive as little as possible and instead use a bicycle. He sets very specific goals he wants to convince people of.

I'm not judging people for not being able to live just like MMM, I judge them for making excuses about how it is simply impossible to improve their spending/savings when they spend orders of magnitude more than even than that.

If you have been reading the blog, you know that MMM currently spends orders of magnitude more than that, he just calls it something else if it doesn't fit into the minimalist lifestyle.

He also rails against consumerism for consumerism's sake. People on this thread are arguing about the cost of daycare and groceries.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 02:52:51 PM by ixtap »

honeybbq

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #175 on: June 16, 2017, 02:50:35 PM »


My kiddo is extremely healthy. I think with hand sanitizers, required washing of hands before entering and leaving, and no shoes inside policy - it's a cleaner and more regulated environment. They are required to clean toys and common areas every night. No room for hiding germs at all... She's been sick once or twice over the years, but nothing serious. There are a lot more benefits to a large center IMO than a small private house but that's probably for another thread.
We can reach common ground, both small and large centers have benefits, I've tried both and can see both sides. I'm of the opinion it depends on the child, you'll never convince me its black and white. I know very well the procedures in place at centers, having attended one, do you think a two year old regularly uses hand sanitizer though?  The route of infection has never been the workers.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1349981/  A link for anyone interested in the science of illness among respective daycare choices. Even with the sanitizer the science shows its a dirty environment primarily due to exposure routes, germs don't need to hide they get transmitted directly.

However, paying $30,000/child/year is on the high end. Actively pushing that anyone who isn't paying $2500 is harming their children is elitism. In the poll you have many people making $30,000 and you're comment that "No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare" speaks of a heightened sense of entitlement. Are you actually saying that my cheaper childcare choice is bad for my children?

However, if you concede that my choice might be equally decent, then you have the uncomfortable position that I'm doing equally well for my children at a substantially lower cost. So which is it, am I harming my children or is my lower cost choice equally valid? I'll gladly say that you're children are being given great opportunities, I'm not disputing your choice is right for you. Will you extend the same courtesy?

You asked Boarder to admit if they're wrong. Will you do the same or double down on saying that I'm cheap and that my childcare isn't important to me.

I never said that anyone who doesn't pay 2500/month is harming their child. That is ridiculous. I said no mustachian would cheap out on child care in response to another poster that no real mustachian would pay 2500/month for their child, which is ridiculous, as well. It's about priorities and up to the individual to make those choices. I also made no judgement on you or your choices at all.

I have paid 200/week when I lived in the midwest and I've paid 800/week in a HCOLA. This is the whole point. You are sweeping with a really wide brush and it doesn't make sense. There IS NO CHILDCARE within 25 miles that is 200/week, so to accuse someone of paying more as being 'ridiculous' is also inherently ridiculous. Like buying a 400k house. They don't exist. Higher salaries are often tied to higher expenses intrinsically. That is the point of my statements.

It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area. 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 02:58:32 PM by honeybbq »

prognastat

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #176 on: June 16, 2017, 03:12:03 PM »
Silly me, I thought the goal was for everyone to find ways to improve their own situation, rather than meeting arbitrary goals set by pseudonymous posters on the internet.

I hear a lot of complainypantsing.

If you've read much of the blog you'll know MMM isn't some kind of relativist when it comes to spending. He judges people for increasing their spending as their income grows and advocates that his family of 3 spending 25k a year + housing cost/paid off house is the right thing to do. He also argues that you should drive as little as possible and instead use a bicycle. He sets very specific goals he wants to convince people of.

I'm not judging people for not being able to live just like MMM, I judge them for making excuses about how it is simply impossible to improve their spending/savings when they spend orders of magnitude more than even than that.

If you have been reading the blog, you know that MMM currently spends orders of magnitude more than that, he just calls it something else if it doesn't fit into the minimalist lifestyle.

He also rails against consumerism for consumerism's sake. People on this thread are arguing about the cost of daycare and groceries.

I have been and even if you were to include all the things you are counting as spending and put it all as this one year he still isn't spending anywhere near 150k last year.

Though I disagree that all of it should count as part of his year spending, he isn't buying a car every year nor is he building a stand-alone office every year. The building is probably a one of forever and the car will likely not be replaced for another 10 years and it can be argued that environmental concerns are a large part of his worldview and as such he could be seeing this as detrimental in frugality, but important in convincing people to switch to a more sustainable form of transport. As for the traveling this isn't something I'd even be interested in doing, could be achieved by credit card miles and is also related to both expanding MMMs brand.

Finally he has specifically made multiple posts addressing groceries and reducing spending there and the cost of having children.

deborah

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #177 on: June 16, 2017, 03:51:08 PM »
My take away from the figures is that it doesn't matter what you earn - a lot of people can save significant amounts of their earnings even if they don't earn much.

It just goes to show how little effort those who are earning a lot actually end up putting into saving.



Optimiser

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #178 on: June 16, 2017, 04:12:52 PM »
My take away from the figures is that it doesn't matter what you earn - a lot of people can save significant amounts of their earnings even if they don't earn much.

It just goes to show how little effort those who are earning a lot actually end up putting into saving.

Agreed. I'm always impressed and inspired by people who save more money than me while making less. I could try to come up with reasons why that won't work for me, but instead I use it as motivation.

boarder42

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #179 on: June 16, 2017, 05:52:20 PM »
Ixtap what are you trying to gain here. Are you arguing to try to get people to confirm your decisions or are you here to learn.  There is a mountain of wealth here and from your few posts in this thread it is blatantly obvious there is alot about personal finance and optimization you don't understand or refuse to listen to.

Open your mind and your finances with a case study. It likely would be eye opening to you just as you went thru it.

If you're here for justification of high spending it's unlikely to be found. 
PM me about how to save 6% on your annual grocery Bill!

There is a 35k starwood bonus right now as well. PM me for the info.

Fire2025

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #180 on: June 16, 2017, 06:28:38 PM »
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.


ixtap

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #181 on: June 16, 2017, 06:46:00 PM »
Ixtap what are you trying to gain here. Are you arguing to try to get people to confirm your decisions or are you here to learn.  There is a mountain of wealth here and from your few posts in this thread it is blatantly obvious there is alot about personal finance and optimization you don't understand or refuse to listen to.

Open your mind and your finances with a case study. It likely would be eye opening to you just as you went thru it.

If you're here for justification of high spending it's unlikely to be found.

I am trying to gain a few of the posters here moving away from acting like a cult. There was literally a comment about "If you don't do what I expect, why are you even using these forums." However, justifying MMMs additional spending while simultaneously lambasting others doing the same thing in their own lives doesn't sound like that is a horse I should bother beating.

As for personal finance knowledge, I do at least understand that something "not happening every year" is a poor reason to exclude it from your spending. As a matter of fact, it is right in line with the I deserve it mentality so often used to justify a splurge.
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.



So if I move to a HCOL to earn more and am able to save $75k, even with the additional expenses, vs the $50k I was able to save in a LCOL, by your definition I have failed?




boarder42

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #182 on: June 16, 2017, 07:11:32 PM »
You still don't get it but continue to argue. That will work to your benefit.
PM me about how to save 6% on your annual grocery Bill!

There is a 35k starwood bonus right now as well. PM me for the info.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #183 on: June 16, 2017, 09:50:00 PM »
As I commented in another thread, once we start talking about spending in dollar terms we end up in a confusion of HCOL / LCOL, high income w/ 50% savings vs. low income w x%, young / healthy / DINK vs. high medical / family situation / plain able to spend...  it is unproductive to talk about spending $x unless we develop an 'apples to apples' system.  Sadly, I believe MMM has lead the forum down this rabbit hole with his annual '$25k and ultimate luxury' spending reports.
Transitioning to FIRE'd albeit somewhat cautiously...

boarder42

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #184 on: June 17, 2017, 05:36:47 AM »
As I commented in another thread, once we start talking about spending in dollar terms we end up in a confusion of HCOL / LCOL, high income w/ 50% savings vs. low income w x%, young / healthy / DINK vs. high medical / family situation / plain able to spend...  it is unproductive to talk about spending $x unless we develop an 'apples to apples' system.  Sadly, I believe MMM has lead the forum down this rabbit hole with his annual '$25k and ultimate luxury' spending reports.

This scale was tipped by those claiming saving much more the 20-25% on 200k hh income was not really possible for them.  Which I don't really care where you live that's an incorrect statement over 90% of the time including family situation.
PM me about how to save 6% on your annual grocery Bill!

There is a 35k starwood bonus right now as well. PM me for the info.

boarder42

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #185 on: June 17, 2017, 05:39:25 AM »
But back to the purpose of the op. I don't really think you can see any real difference in the data. You have high medium and low savers at every income level. Most are saving at least 20%. But those saving 20-50 vs those saving over 50 are virtually equal amounts at each income level. Which I find very odd - specifically with the 100k plus level.
PM me about how to save 6% on your annual grocery Bill!

There is a 35k starwood bonus right now as well. PM me for the info.

human

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #186 on: June 17, 2017, 06:10:18 AM »
Wow 50% of those polled make twice the median income. Goes to show many of the mmmers on here that like to bash those making less than median income are quite priviledged. This site and forum definitely do not represent the average person and their normal problems.

Fuck half this thread is arguing about 1000 a month childcare v 2500  a month childcare. If you aren't handing off your kids to the wife beating welfare recipient next door every evening before heading to work in some restaurant or bar you are doing real good.

I'm so sick of hearing people explain away fearless leader's leaf and office. He doesn't need either it's bullshit just admit it. He can spend money on that nonesense but not 20 bucks for a used deck of magic cards for his only son?

Fire2025

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #187 on: June 17, 2017, 06:48:39 AM »
So if I move to a HCOL to earn more and am able to save $75k, even with the additional expenses, vs the $50k I was able to save in a LCOL, by your definition I have failed?

I have never nor would I ever use the word "failed" and I'm very sorry if anyone read that.  I'm saying, I think there is a difference between:

"I spend based on my priorities, so I save 75k"
and
"I "have" to spend more because I live in a HCOL area so I can only save 75k". 

One is what we are all trying to move toward and one is what I'm trying to moving away from.

shawndoggy

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #188 on: June 17, 2017, 07:55:12 AM »
But back to the purpose of the op. I don't really think you can see any real difference in the data. You have high medium and low savers at every income level. Most are saving at least 20%. But those saving 20-50 vs those saving over 50 are virtually equal amounts at each income level. Which I find very odd - specifically with the 100k plus level.

but we really don't know where the savers are clustered.  the 20-50 group could be skewed at 45% + and the over 50% group could be skewed at under 55%.  Over 50% sounds like a lot more than 20%, but only marginally more than 48%.

ttadae

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #189 on: June 17, 2017, 08:02:42 AM »
We make $100k plus with a 20-50% savings rate, so though I'm usually a lurker I'm chiming in.

Many seemed surprised at this, but we need to recognize the poll, although interesting, doesn't give much detail.

We save 34% (ETA of our gross income) and live in a state with the 2nd highest state income taxes (9-11%.). Add that back in and we're closer to what it sounds like you all expect of a MMM'er.

We have two kids, and save for college which I did *not* account for in our savings rate since it won't go to retirement.  That's another 5%.

We chose to give 10% to charity.  It will delay our FIRE But it's the decision we made for ourselves.

We have an autistic daughter who has been kicked out of EVERY SINGLE daycare option we have tried.  (Not to mention every single outside activity we have attempted to have her involved in.). So we have a nanny.  Don't even get me started on this cost.  Or the cost of counseling.

The thing about kids, and it's easy to spout the "rules" when you're childless, or even when you have a standard neurotypical kid, is that if it were all about optimizing costs then none of us would have children.  Ever.  There's no way to guarantee you'll have the type of child who will fit into a purely optimized budget plan.  It's basically a way to guarantee your bills will be higher.  But should having kids be judged as harshly as other inflated expenses?  I personally think not. 

I get that some posters are trying to get us (as in the $100k+ with a <50% savings rate) to admit our budgets are sub-optimal.  And perhaps they are by your standards.  But I resent the implication that I don't belong here based on a sweeping generalization that has little flexibility for different non-consumerism type choices.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 09:05:03 AM by ttadae »

human

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #190 on: June 17, 2017, 08:57:35 AM »
I was under the impression that most do not include takes as expenditures but rather calculate savings based on income net of income taxes (property taxes are another debate). Otherwise no one making over 100k could realistically hit 60-70% savings rate. Oh and many here tend to exclude mortgages from expenditures because they don't know the difference between net worth increases and spending.

brooklynmoney

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #191 on: June 17, 2017, 12:00:05 PM »
I make between 260 to 280gz a year. It's just me so I get to control every dollars spent or not spent. I normally spend 60k a year but am trying to get it down to closer to 48k. Of course about half of my gross goes to taxes. If I had a partner or kids I'm sure I'd spend more. My friend in my hood spends $2500 monthly for daycare. Kids are expensive yo epecially in HCOL areas.

Prairie Stash

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #192 on: June 17, 2017, 01:55:09 PM »


My kiddo is extremely healthy. I think with hand sanitizers, required washing of hands before entering and leaving, and no shoes inside policy - it's a cleaner and more regulated environment. They are required to clean toys and common areas every night. No room for hiding germs at all... She's been sick once or twice over the years, but nothing serious. There are a lot more benefits to a large center IMO than a small private house but that's probably for another thread.
We can reach common ground, both small and large centers have benefits, I've tried both and can see both sides. I'm of the opinion it depends on the child, you'll never convince me its black and white. I know very well the procedures in place at centers, having attended one, do you think a two year old regularly uses hand sanitizer though?  The route of infection has never been the workers.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1349981/  A link for anyone interested in the science of illness among respective daycare choices. Even with the sanitizer the science shows its a dirty environment primarily due to exposure routes, germs don't need to hide they get transmitted directly.

However, paying $30,000/child/year is on the high end. Actively pushing that anyone who isn't paying $2500 is harming their children is elitism. In the poll you have many people making $30,000 and you're comment that "No Mustachian would cheap out on their childcare" speaks of a heightened sense of entitlement. Are you actually saying that my cheaper childcare choice is bad for my children?

However, if you concede that my choice might be equally decent, then you have the uncomfortable position that I'm doing equally well for my children at a substantially lower cost. So which is it, am I harming my children or is my lower cost choice equally valid? I'll gladly say that you're children are being given great opportunities, I'm not disputing your choice is right for you. Will you extend the same courtesy?

You asked Boarder to admit if they're wrong. Will you do the same or double down on saying that I'm cheap and that my childcare isn't important to me.

I never said that anyone who doesn't pay 2500/month is harming their child. That is ridiculous. I said no mustachian would cheap out on child care in response to another poster that no real mustachian would pay 2500/month for their child, which is ridiculous, as well. It's about priorities and up to the individual to make those choices. I also made no judgement on you or your choices at all.

I have paid 200/week when I lived in the midwest and I've paid 800/week in a HCOLA. This is the whole point. You are sweeping with a really wide brush and it doesn't make sense. There IS NO CHILDCARE within 25 miles that is 200/week, so to accuse someone of paying more as being 'ridiculous' is also inherently ridiculous. Like buying a 400k house. They don't exist. Higher salaries are often tied to higher expenses intrinsically. That is the point of my statements.

It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.
I agree that there is likely no daycare for $200/week, what about $500/week? You took it to the extreme to try to prove a point but where I live a daycare provider with 4-5 kids in home (legal limits) at $500/week/kid would make over 6 figures ($2000/week and 52 weeks). Typically in my area the going rate is $300/week, $1000/month/kid ($50,000/year). The in home spots are done by mothers so they usually earn less as they don't "pay" for their own children. Are you seriously trying to convince the world there are no SAHP within 25 miles willing to earn $75,000 by taking in 3-4 kids/year? There's always new mothers where I live who do it for a few years just to spend more time with their kids, they're fantastic mothers and provide excellent care (MIL did it to spend time with my spouse as a toddler). What city do you live in where there's no SAHP daycares?

However, if you choose a center, that's your choice, feel free to move on without answering. I'm curious though, if you subtract daycare (all $30k) from your expenses and your income, does your SR improve considerably? For example if you make $150 and spend $100 now, how does it look making $120 and spending $70? I have 2 kids, daycare is a pretty short term expense (4-5 years/kid). If you ever get tired of the daycare debate just exclude it and then you can compare yourself to childless couples easier. Outside of daycare my kids costs are under $1000/year at this age, its a few clothes and some food, kids clothes are cheap and they eat very little.

Adram

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #193 on: June 18, 2017, 06:59:48 AM »
Household income of about $180K, net after tax of $125K, saving rate of just under 75%. No kids, so i have no comment on childcare costs.

Excluding mortgage interest we will spend about $27,000 this year, while living in luxury.

And i agree with boarder, too many people on this board who don't want to buy into the mustachian philosophy. A horde of complainypants. Hell, there's even people who own boats! 😜
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 07:03:52 AM by Adram »

BTDretire

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #194 on: June 18, 2017, 08:02:55 AM »
If there ever comes a time in my life when I need disapproval of my reading and posting on this forum, I'll be sure to check in with boarder42 and Adram.

CoffeeAndDonuts

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #195 on: June 19, 2017, 08:56:48 AM »
2 income, 1 kid in day care.

Gross: ~$160k equivalent to W2 income (*)
Net: $140.1k.
Spending: $68.2k (49%)
Savings Rate: $71.9k (51%)

Spending would fall to ~37% (of net) if I removed charity (we've been working on bringing this up) and daycare.

(*) We've got 1 W2 income, a K-1 from an s-corp, and 1 LLC filing as sole proprietor. I imagine I'm not the only one but it took some finagling to get my numbers to resemble a normal W2 style income. I made my my best attempt to standardize the numbers into MMM's format: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/26/calculating-net-worth/.

Became aware of MMM and FI about a year ago but was already pretty in that world on my own, historically hovering around a 40% savings rate most of the last decade or more. I've learned a lot and up'ed our game!




doublethinkmoney

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #196 on: June 19, 2017, 09:56:39 AM »
Ixtap what are you trying to gain here. Are you arguing to try to get people to confirm your decisions or are you here to learn.  There is a mountain of wealth here and from your few posts in this thread it is blatantly obvious there is alot about personal finance and optimization you don't understand or refuse to listen to.

Open your mind and your finances with a case study. It likely would be eye opening to you just as you went thru it.

If you're here for justification of high spending it's unlikely to be found.

I am trying to gain a few of the posters here moving away from acting like a cult. There was literally a comment about "If you don't do what I expect, why are you even using these forums." However, justifying MMMs additional spending while simultaneously lambasting others doing the same thing in their own lives doesn't sound like that is a horse I should bother beating.

As for personal finance knowledge, I do at least understand that something "not happening every year" is a poor reason to exclude it from your spending. As a matter of fact, it is right in line with the I deserve it mentality so often used to justify a splurge.
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.



So if I move to a HCOL to earn more and am able to save $75k, even with the additional expenses, vs the $50k I was able to save in a LCOL, by your definition I have failed?
I am with you. There are far too many judgmental people with their noses in the air on this form looking for a FIGHT. Not even a single face punch,  but a constant poke the bear attitude. They have to prove they are so smart/enlightened and prove you are not "one of them". And they always have to say ONE more thing to say! It's non stop...

They completely ruined this thread by making it difficult to find everyone else's responses and being able to see what others savings rates are at a comparable income level.

They are not being helpful by making condescending and obviously inflammatory remarks to entice a response and keep the drama going. It's a waste of time and not helpful to anyone.

If you are making intentional decisions with your money, know where it's all going and what your goals are - who is anyone to judge? It's your life. I think the point of the blog is to open people's eyes to their spending, goals and how they can achieve FI. If you are engaged enough on this forum then you are aware. If you are unsure you will ask for a case study.




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caracarn

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #197 on: June 19, 2017, 10:17:29 AM »


If you are making intentional decisions with your money, know where it's all going and what your goals are - who is anyone to judge? It's your life. I think the point of the blog is to open people's eyes to their spending, goals and how they can achieve FI. If you are engaged enough on this forum then you are aware. If you are unsure you will ask for a case study.


This is a good summation of my feelings.

I tried to rationally engage in trying to get those who were attacking to understand that it is not one size fits all.  My frustration/anger in the continued attacks was that I am not simply proceeding with my eyes closed and trying to justify higher spending.  I make significant efforts to optimize and also know there are areas where we have just said " not now" because it has an impact on our lifestyle we are not willing to take.  I was just surprised at the non-helpful attack focused attitude of a couple of what I guess are hardcore folks who just cannot let any comment go by unchallenged.  Getting hammered the way I did certainly will make me think twice about opening up about details that might bring on the wrath of folks who for some reason feel this should be a closed society only open to those who take the blood oath and when they deviate should be punished by death.

I do find in strange that somehow what MMM did specifically, including a kid who seems to not want to be involved in any activities that might involve equipment/instruments and other things that one cannot easily fabricate out of the dirt from ones backyard, can take on such a focused drive from some as to be the blueprint.  I almost feel like the response from them would be that we somehow raised out kids completely wrong because they wanted to be in marching band, or in science Olympiad or theater.    Or god forbid if they like an activity like gymnastics or dance where you need hours and hours of expensive lessons to progress, we somehow failed as a parent for allowing such consumerist ideas to even take root in their brains.  Not every kids enjoys the outdoors and playing in the mud.  Some have different interests.  So when others point to MMM supposedly covering topics like kids, I disagree.  Yes he wrote articles with that title, but he never deviated from his idea of a kid.  We are not optimizable robots with no interests that span other areas that may involve increased spending.  For this reason, I certainly agree with those posters who noted that if that were the goal, no one would ever justify having children.  Too much unpredictability which runs totally against MMM optimizing.  Almost all of our outlandish spending is related to things because of the kids.  We already have a "post-kid" budget and it falls quite in line with a $25K-$30K excluding home costs, so we feel like we have a solid handle on things and our retirement budget is just based on a little bump from the to $40K to allow for some extra travel because we know that is important to us.

For all the vehemence of the responses I got, not once did I come back and say "I can't do any better".  It was very much along the line of this posters note that it's my life and for now I'm OK with there I'm at.  It does not mean I've given up and have gone to the  dark side where I encourage everyone with a $100K+ income to go out an buy a yacht, yet somehow there is this push to ostracize people who are not currently successful at the hardcore lifestyle or have no desire to get all the way there.  Just not what I every really saw in this community until this thread.  I guess I should not have been a sucker assuming an innocent question about why more $100K+ people were not giving more details was actually innocent.  That instead it was a call to toss chum in the water so the sharks could have a field day.

boarder42

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #198 on: June 19, 2017, 10:44:14 AM »
Ixtap what are you trying to gain here. Are you arguing to try to get people to confirm your decisions or are you here to learn.  There is a mountain of wealth here and from your few posts in this thread it is blatantly obvious there is alot about personal finance and optimization you don't understand or refuse to listen to.

Open your mind and your finances with a case study. It likely would be eye opening to you just as you went thru it.

If you're here for justification of high spending it's unlikely to be found.

I am trying to gain a few of the posters here moving away from acting like a cult. There was literally a comment about "If you don't do what I expect, why are you even using these forums." However, justifying MMMs additional spending while simultaneously lambasting others doing the same thing in their own lives doesn't sound like that is a horse I should bother beating.

As for personal finance knowledge, I do at least understand that something "not happening every year" is a poor reason to exclude it from your spending. As a matter of fact, it is right in line with the I deserve it mentality so often used to justify a splurge.
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.



So if I move to a HCOL to earn more and am able to save $75k, even with the additional expenses, vs the $50k I was able to save in a LCOL, by your definition I have failed?
I am with you. There are far too many judgmental people with their noses in the air on this form looking for a FIGHT. Not even a single face punch,  but a constant poke the bear attitude. They have to prove they are so smart/enlightened and prove you are not "one of them". And they always have to say ONE more thing to say! It's non stop...

They completely ruined this thread by making it difficult to find everyone else's responses and being able to see what others savings rates are at a comparable income level.

They are not being helpful by making condescending and obviously inflammatory remarks to entice a response and keep the drama going. It's a waste of time and not helpful to anyone.

If you are making intentional decisions with your money, know where it's all going and what your goals are - who is anyone to judge? It's your life. I think the point of the blog is to open people's eyes to their spending, goals and how they can achieve FI. If you are engaged enough on this forum then you are aware. If you are unsure you will ask for a case study.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

thats literally the point of this site. to have others judge and make you question all your decisions to help you FIRE earlier or in a better safer way. 

wa wah wah

its hard to save 50% on 200k ... no its not and making statements like this doesnt better the forum in any way shape or form. all it does is help feed into a group think mentality for newcomers around here ... like oh yeah i can keep my porsche and my cable.. these are cognitive decisions i made ... that makes them ok. 

its not comfortable to truly look at where your money is going and evaluate if thats truly a happiness point in your life.  but misery loves company and there is a growing number of people on here complaining about how hard it is to save on ridiculous levels of income. 
PM me about how to save 6% on your annual grocery Bill!

There is a 35k starwood bonus right now as well. PM me for the info.

honeybbq

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Re: What's your income level and savings rate?
« Reply #199 on: June 19, 2017, 11:01:39 AM »
...
It's easy to say "If I made 200k a year I'd save 150k a year!" Sure, if all your expenses were the same. The REALITY is that OFTEN you have to move to a HCOLA area to make that kind of money (as I did) and that things JUST COST MORE here. I couldn't save 150k a year because of things like taxes, houses, and daycare just costing more. It doesn't make me a ridiculous spendy pants. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, this is how you can get ahead, especially if you want to save enough to FIRE and more to a lower COLA area.

I totally support your right to spend your money in any fashion that fits into our priorities and if that does "look" mustachian to some that is what it is, but I have to part company with you on this last rant. 

I live in a high cost area and I save over 50% of my $60,000 salary and I own a home and I just went on an international trip. 

It's cool to "justify" an expense as important to you, but using the High Cost area, that's an excuse.

I maybe splitting hairs here, but I thought we were here to split those hairs.

My savings rate is around 50%. I'm not sure what hair you are splitting.