What's the point of financial independence if.....

[DiamondIce]

My first post on this site. MMM is fantastic and after discovering the man and his mission a few months ago felt really encouraged to see someone beat me at my own game.

I've paid my way through 4 degrees and, at 40, have a nice financial nest egg set up. However, also at 40, I've discovered the value of financial independence, something I do not have. But the idea does leave one major question.

What then?

So you've got a strong sense you don't need to work anymore to pay all the bills for your family and yourself. There is still the question of meaning in life. How it may be found. How meaning may be given.

While financial independence and MMM's philosophy can give freedom from the worst of working arrangements and cycles of greed, it does not tell us how to find fulfillment. And fulfillment often just comes back to how we choose to make a living -- or otherwise insert ourselves into the very predicaments MMM is trying to save us from.

Thoughts, arguments, queries?

Perhaps a clue to the answer can be found in the words of Victor Frankl, from Man's Search for Meaning.
If I may quote:

“Don't aim at success. The more you aim at it and make it a target, the more you are going to miss it. For success, like happiness, cannot be pursued; it must ensue, and it only does so as the unintended side effect of one's personal dedication to a cause greater than oneself or as the by-product of one's surrender to a person other than oneself. Happiness must happen, and the same holds for success: you have to let it happen by not caring about it. I want you to listen to what your conscience commands you to do and go on to carry it out to the best of your knowledge. Then you will live to see that in the long-run—in the long-run, I say!—success will follow you precisely because you had forgotten to think about it”

[Zikoris]

There's no "point" to financial independence beyond having a big enough pile of cash to do whatever you want for the rest of your life. I'm not sure why you would expect it to have any meaning beyond that. It's a math equation, not some sort of spiritual enlightenment life-meaning thing.

[sunday]

Imagine you're on your deathbed and you think to yourself, "I wish I would have done _____." Now that you have the freedom to do what you want without worrying about the basics of everyday life, go do that thing.

[Otsog]

This seems to be a regular query from newbies.  Does someone have the links to all the relevant blog posts locked and loaded?

[magickelly]

Do what you want to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn87-mcnoVc

If you love working then keep working just now maybe it's continuing to work but on your own terms, like Jim Collins. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/05/26/guest-posting-financial-independence-23-years-later/

If you don't, what do you want to do? Maybe it's rollerblading all day thinking spiritual thoughts like Slomo, maybe it's carpentry and houses and fatherhood like MMM. My dear friend walked away from a 30 year career as a physician - never very fulfilled by it and beyond frustrated at the end, much like Mr. Kitchin - to fulfill a childhood dream to hike the AT. He also judges pageants in the Miss America system, is a private coach for talent and interviewing to pageant contestants, and devotes an enormous amount of time to music, including performing in high-level amateur ensembles as a pianist and oboist and holding officer positions with the international double reed society.

Only you can define fulfillment for yourself. Once you reach FI, the gift is time and freedom to figure out what it is that lights you up (if you haven't already.)

[Lordy]

The question sounds to me like: "Why should I seek freedom? If I don't stray to far I don't feel the leash."

To me FI is about my preferences, my schedule, my rules. Why this may sound selfish at first it doesn't mean that I would use all that time purely for myself. If you have sufficient money, you can give some away and the same goes for time. You can give the gift of your time (and skills) to your family, your friends or a cause of your choosing.

The fact that you don't have to work doesn't remove meaning either. Like hobbies, taste and many other things I believe meaning to change too. With a different outlook (from an FI perspective), new options, and with them, new meaning will come.

[Dexterous]

whatever makes you happy

[forummm]

From http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/your-favoritememorable-mustachian-quotes-from-the-mmm-forum-(or-other)/msg700563/?topicseen#new

I've been bored before, but I never thought of work as a solution to that.

[401Killer]

Imagine you're on your deathbed and you think to yourself, "I wish I would have done _____." Now that you have the freedom to do what you want without worrying about the basics of everyday life, go do that thing.

^This^

Simple as that.

[forummm]

Imagine you're on your deathbed and you think to yourself, "I wish I would have done _____." Now that you have the freedom to do what you want without worrying about the basics of everyday life, go do that thing.

^This^

Simple as that.

The cliche is that no one says "I wished I spent more time at the office" in these situations.

OP, maybe what you're getting at is that you need something to give you a sense of purpose in life. We all do. If you get that from work and you love your job, then that's really wonderful and you can happily keep doing that. But many of us find our purpose outside of that thing that pays us. For me, it will be doing lots of volunteering, public interest, educational and recreational activities. So I can still be playing an important role in society and providing value to others. But it's not something that would necessarily pay very well.

[Retired To Win]

... So you've got a strong sense you don't need to work anymore to pay all the bills for your family and yourself. There is still the question of meaning in life. How it may be found. How meaning may be given... And fulfillment often just comes back to how we choose to make a living -- or otherwise insert ourselves into the very predicaments MMM is trying to save us from...

Often, maybe.  Required, absolutely not.  One easy example: the SAHMs and the FI/REd Dads (MMM included) that find fulfillment in raising and schooling their own children instead of leaving it to others and not experiencing/enjoying it themselves.  I'm sure I could think of other examples. I may come back and post them.

[dcheesi]

FI is the start of the journey towards fulfillment, not the destination. Can you find fulfillment without being FI? Sure, if you're lucky, and find fulfillment in something that also pays your bills.

But also consider the problem of local maxima: just because you feel reasonably fulfilled in your current position doesn't mean that there isn't an even more fulfilling situation somewhere out there that you're missing on. Being FI gives you freedom and confidence to leave your current comfort zone and explore other options that might be better for you in the long run, using your 'stache to weather any temporary obstacles or discomforts you may encounter in the crossing.

Finally, consider also that you might be better at fulfilling your current role when you are FI. You no longer have to compromise your principles for fear of losing your position, which means that you are free to focus entirely on doing the work in the most appropriate and effective manner. And you won't hesitate to speak up when you see something being done that you think is wrong, or less than optimal for the organization or its end goal.

[Louisville]

Once I'm FI ( I will be pretty old), I'd like to teach personal finance to adults. So many people I talk to, many of them quite intelligent, seem to know fuckall about how to handle money. If I could get even a few people to turn their lives around the way I've turned mine around, I'd feel like I'd accomplished something.
Not sure how I'm going to accomplish this - stand on a street corner and shout, maybe?

[golden1]

It's a good question.  Life is full of possibilities that most never really allow themselves to contemplate because they just assume that they will live a similar life to what everyone else does.  The idea of FI is that not everyone has to live that way because we are at a point in history where we can buy our own freedom if we knuckle down for a few years and live a slightly less ridiculous existence. 

[Insanity]

From http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/your-favoritememorable-mustachian-quotes-from-the-mmm-forum-(or-other)/msg700563/?topicseen#new

I've been bored before, but I never thought of work as a solution to that.

That is an awesome quote!

[Kris]

Personally, although I have enjoyed my career for most of it (not anymore, because I work in Scott Walker's Wisconsin at the university) -- but I have never mistaken my work as a major source of fulfillment.  I work to make money to live.  That puts food on the table and a roof over my head.  But fulfillment comes from within, not from performing a service for which I receive money from someone else in exchange. 

For me, fulfillment comes from time I spend with loved ones, time I spend in nature, or traveling, or trying new things.  FIRE will allow me to be MORE fulfilled, not less. 

[Mrs.LC]

Fulfillment definitely comes from within.  Too many people define themselves by their work and the job they have.  FI is about enjoying life and being your true self.  You will be your own boss, set your own schedule and rules.   

[Chris22]

I find it interesting that a group of people who find fulfillment in things like abstaining from want and being self sufficient do not generally seem to understand those who find fulfillment in challenging careers.  I would expect the feelings to be similar, not opposed to one another. 

[EricL]

You're missing the point. Not everyone has a fulfilling career.  I'll venture to say most people don't.  Many don't even have careers. Even the ones who do may not always be fulfilled by it due to industry and/or life changes. 

[Chris22]

You're missing the point. Not everyone has a fulfilling career.  I'll venture to say most people don't.  Many don't even have careers. Even the ones who do may not always be fulfilled by it due to industry and/or life changes.

I don't think I am, in fact I specifically said

"...a group of people who find fulfillment in things like abstaining from want and being self sufficient do not generally seem to understand those who find fulfillment in challenging careers."

IOW, not that everyone has a fulfilling career, I'm asking why this group tends to not recognize that people can.  In fact, they even try to talk us into the idea that maybe we're not as happy as we think we are (???)

But also consider the problem of local maxima: just because you feel reasonably fulfilled in your current position doesn't mean that there isn't an even more fulfilling situation somewhere out there that you're missing on.

Point being, if you subscribe to the silly-ass word "badassity" where doing things that are hard make you happy/fulfilled, wouldn't it stand to reason that people who have challenging careers might find hapiness in them?  Is it not the same theory applied to work?  Not that everyone would feel this way, but that some of us do?

[Kris]

I find it interesting that a group of people who find fulfillment in things like abstaining from want and being self sufficient do not generally seem to understand those who find fulfillment in challenging careers.  I would expect the feelings to be similar, not opposed to one another.

I think you are not understanding what they (we) are saying.  I am not abstaining from want.  I am abstaining from mindless want.  I do enjoy challenge, and I enjoy the intellectually challenging aspects of my career.  But I can do those things on my own as well.  Money is not the object.  The fulfillment comes from within.  Being self-sufficient and feeling emotionally unfulfilled unless one has a remunerated activity -- those two things are opposed to one another. 

[Bracken_Joy]

Financial independence in no way requires retirement. If you like your job, stay. If you are fulfilled, stay. But FI gives people the choice, and choice is what it is all about.

[Villanelle]

To me, it is about choice.  When you don't have the money you need, you must work. It isn't a choice to do so.  And if your specific jobs becomes untenable for some reason, you have to soldier on anyway, at least until you can line up another job.

If work brings you fulfillment, great.  Keep doing it.  But that's where the "FI" part comes in, even if you don't RE.  It allows you to pull the "R" card the moment work is no longer fulfilling, either temporarily until you find a new job or hobby that does fulfill you, or permanently.

I have doubts that Husband will ever truly want to be fully retired.  My dad, who turned 72 yesterday, is still working (part time, consultant on retainer) and I'm not sure he'll ever give that up voluntarily.  He likes it.  He and my mom certainly don't need the money as they are in their 70s and still have positive cash flow.  So it is all about the work for him.  But the point is he can choose to do it.  Or if he wanted to go to Europe for 4 months and the company wouldn't allow it, he could severe the relationship and be just fine.  If they want him to work more hours or travel more and he doesn't want to (even for more pay), he doesn't have to.

DH and my goal is to be at a point where, when he retires from the military, we can be okay financially.  It won't be the life we want, but it wouldn't be miserable and utterly bare bones, either.  That will allow him, when looking for his next job/career, to take his time, to value the job and the company culture over the pay, to be selective about location, and to feel no pressure if it takes him a year to find something.  He believes he will still want the intangibles he gets from work because he finds work fulfilling.  But that doesn't mean it won't feel very different when we don't *need* the money, and that his experiences won't be different because he will be working purely by choice and for fulfillment, rather than our of necessity and for money.

If work satisfies you, keep doing it.  But there are still plenty of reasons so get to a position where you don't need to work.  What if you get injured or sick?  What if work stops being fulfilling?  What if you are laid off?  What if you realize a previously undiscovered for gardening or stamp collecting or croquette and suddenly that's what you find to be fulfilling instead of work?

[arebelspy]

Financial independence lets you pursue whatever you find meaningful.

It's as simple as that.

[laughing_paddler]

Just wanted to say that I appreciate the OP's quoting of Frankl. Man's Search for Meaning has been on my 'to-read' list for a while now.

I actually briefly suspected OP was a friend of mine who brings up Frankl in another arena (RSS feed sharing/commenting community)! Lev- is that you?  :-)

[Kris]

Just wanted to say that I appreciate the OP's quoting of Frankl. Man's Search for Meaning has been on my 'to-read' list for a while now.

I actually briefly suspected OP was a friend of mine who brings up Frankl in another arena (RSS feed sharing/commenting community)! Lev- is that you?  :-)

Laughing_Peddler, I just noticed your very specific descriptor of your location -- fellow St. Paulite here (used to live on the east side in a previous life!).

[sunday]

I find it interesting that a group of people who find fulfillment in things like abstaining from want and being self sufficient do not generally seem to understand those who find fulfillment in challenging careers.  I would expect the feelings to be similar, not opposed to one another.

I have a very fulfilling career and wouldn't mind doing it until my death. I'm not even planning ER. FI is just giving me the freedom to ensure I can participate in it as long as it fulfills me. There's nothing wrong with loving your work as you do other things, but you have to ask be able to answer "What gives me meaning?" first. We'd like to have lots of FU money so if things arise that makes our jobs no longer serve our goals of happiness and fulfillment,  we can find something else.

[laughing_paddler]

Just wanted to say that I appreciate the OP's quoting of Frankl. Man's Search for Meaning has been on my 'to-read' list for a while now.

I actually briefly suspected OP was a friend of mine who brings up Frankl in another arena (RSS feed sharing/commenting community)! Lev- is that you?  :-)

Laughing_Peddler, I just noticed your very specific descriptor of your location -- fellow St. Paulite here (used to live on the east side in a previous life!).

^ Yuuuup. DW and I (and wee DS) are East-Siders; transplants, not lifers, but you can't beat it for diversity, affordability, closeness to city fun, and pockets of neighborliness.  Cheers!

[Cougar]

Well, with 4 degrees and i'm figuring some of them are advanced; you are probably in a position/job where you control most of your time; so you most likely cant relate well to the average worker that can be treated like a yo-yo by their job; doing that for 40 years when there's a way out is why a lot of people are here.


but FI gives you freedom and independence to do whatever you want. if you are doing that now, you can still have greater freedoms. if someone tells you they need this completed by monday and youre fi; you can tell them no; youre life comes first; most workers in the usa cant say that because their chained to debt like a prisoner; but mmm'ers try and get rid of that.

lots of mmm'ers would like to do spomething else, even if it's starting their own business; hell i'm considering going back to school and getting a degree in astrophysics because its fascinating to me but do not really have the time to devote to it with a plus full time job or some just want to sit on the back porch and watch sunsets; but you cant do either when your job has any leverage on you.

[weseh]

I wrote a long post yesterday talking about how 2 years ago I loved my job but then management changed, I got laid off, and I don't love my field even more. Financial independence is a way to be able to walk away instead of being stuck doing something that you now hate.

Now I'm working as an independent consultant. This morning, I was on a call where I literally got yelled at because the people did not like /agree with my position. I mentally told myself, "Hey, you know what? I can leave at any time. I'm going to give this my best because that's who I am, but I also don't have to stay here forever." Knowing I could walk away helped me to stay calm and stand my ground.

Even though I'm not fully FI yet, I know I have enough cushion and that gives me confidence.

[TexasStash]

This thread reminds me of the quote that says that we ought to love people and use things, but often we do the reverse. One of the joys of FI (regardless of what you do with it) is that you no longer feel pressured to use people or manipulate your circumstances to provide for yourself or your family.

It kind of amazes me that anyone can believe that without work they would get exceedingly bored. Tells you how strong the blinders are. I can think of literally dozens of causes/organizations within my own city that I would volunteer with 9-5 without expecting to be paid if I were FI. Sure, you can volunteer, make time for your hobbies, etc in the evenings and on weekends, but they necessite distraction from family and friends often to do so. Imagine filling your days with causes you love and activities that you enjoy, while still having time for family, friends and for everyone else who is still running the 9-5 rat race!

[Davids]

I know once I RE I will never be bored. Hell if i have nothing to do at a particular time i am sure there will be an episode of Maury or Springer on to kill some time and that will still be better than work.

[Villanelle]

This thread reminds me of the quote that says that we ought to love people and use things, but often we do the reverse. One of the joys of FI (regardless of what you do with it) is that you no longer feel pressured to use people or manipulate your circumstances to provide for yourself or your family.

It kind of amazes me that anyone can believe that without work they would get exceedingly bored. Tells you how strong the blinders are. I can think of literally dozens of causes/organizations within my own city that I would volunteer with 9-5 without expecting to be paid if I were FI. Sure, you can volunteer, make time for your hobbies, etc in the evenings and on weekends, but they necessite distraction from family and friends often to do so. Imagine filling your days with causes you love and activities that you enjoy, while still having time for family, friends and for everyone else who is still running the 9-5 rat race!

In the case of my dad, it isn't that he thinks he'd be exceedingly bored without work.  He has a very full life--several tennis leagues, a bridge group, on his HOA board in a very large community, he and my mom entertain regularly, etc.  But his professional work challenges him in a different way.  You advise to imagine filling one's days with activities one enjoy.  For some people, one of those activities is their work.  Why is that so incomprehensible to so many on these boards?  That some people like their work? 

[arebelspy]

I know once I RE I will never be bored.

From the most recent GCC article:

[Dicey]

Trust me, it's worth every shred of the effort it takes to get there.

Suppose you do get there and don't like it. Think how many options you would then have to fill the rest of your days.

It's all about the freedom.

[Potterquilter]

After early retirement I have made lots of quilts and pots for charitable causes and clubs. I have become a very good potter and my items command a high price at silent auctions and raffles. I just made a quilt that is being raffled for a group that works with homeless veterans. Sometimes I participate in craft sales and have fun finding a good use for the money. I am thinking of setting up a scholarship at a local school, still working on the details. Much more fulfilling than going to my job as a burnt out nurse. Better for the patients too, if I may say so.

But you can do whatever you want.  If you enjoy you job, keep doing it.  That is the beauty of FI. If you want to drive a  $100,000 car, fly first class etc. by all means do so if you are willing to work for it. I just would not suggest living like that on credit as it is very risky. Those things bring me no fulfillment, but if it is what you want go for it.

[Cassie]

I do some volunteer work but most is mind numbing & that is why many people can't just fill their time with it.  Also if you like what you do professionally & find it stimulates your mind why not just do it p.t. for yourself once you reach F.I.  I think so many people think that you either work f.t. or not at all. I think more & more people will choose this option.

[StockBeard]

I wrote a long post yesterday talking about how 2 years ago I loved my job but then management changed, I got laid off, and I don't love my field even more. Financial independence is a way to be able to walk away instead of being stuck doing something that you now hate.

Same here. A job I loved doing for 6 years all of a sudden became the worst part of my life after a change in management, and this is when I realized I needed FI.

[Chris22]

Were there no other jobs available somewhere else?  Kinda sounds like "I spilled ketchup on my shirt so now I go topless".  Why not just get a different job?

[Kris]

You advise to imagine filling one's days with activities one enjoy.  For some people, one of those activities is their work.  Why is that so incomprehensible to so many on these boards?  That some people like their work?

It is amazing to me that no matter how many times people on here say, "FI is about independence... if what you enjoy doing is your work, then do that!" someone always responds with, "How come none of you people can understand that some people like their work?"

[StockBeard]

Were there no other jobs available somewhere else?  Kinda sounds like "I spilled ketchup on my shirt so now I go topless".  Why not just get a different job?

Everybody's situation is different I guess. Various reasons make it that I have a 2 years additional commitment to my company, otherwise I'd have to give back a significant amount of money.

[bacchi]

Were there no other jobs available somewhere else?  Kinda sounds like "I spilled ketchup on my shirt so now I go topless".  Why not just get a different job?

I spilled ketchup on my shirt, and then spilled mustard, and then some mayo. I even tried bbq sauce and hummus. Same result each time. I'm going topless.

You're lucky that you like your work. Why is it so hard to understand that many don't?

[stlbrah]

I will prolly be working in one way or another until 65+, but will hit FI by around 37

[Cassie]

I think many people are interested in cutting back & maybe retiring at 50 but not 30. I don't really think it matters. If you have a lot of savings it will help you weather the road no matter what unexpected things occur.  I don't think we can ever know what we want in the long term. Things change quickly including ourselves sometimes.

[Eric]

You advise to imagine filling one's days with activities one enjoy.  For some people, one of those activities is their work.  Why is that so incomprehensible to so many on these boards?  That some people like their work?

It is amazing to me that no matter how many times people on here say, "FI is about independence... if what you enjoy doing is your work, then do that!" someone always responds with, "How come none of you people can understand that some people like their work?"

Can't you understand that?  What the hell is wrong with you people?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAY27NU1Jog

[Cassie]

Makes perfect sense to me!!!!!!!!

[Villanelle]

And can't some of you understand that some people *would* be bored without their work, or at least less fulfilled?  Which is, of course, my point as can be seen in the context of my posts.

The post I responded to suggested that it was "blinders" that kept people working, and then went on to list all the things one could do if one would just remove those blinders.  I was pointing out that for some people, it is a well thought our decision to keep working and that, after careful evaluation, they've decided work is the thing they want to do. I didn't claim that "no one" can understand some people like to work.  But that poster was using some pretty judgmental language about working, and that is to what I was responding. 

I said it seemed incomprehensible to so many on these boards.  If you aren't one of those so many, then I wasn't talking about you. 

[Jeremy E.]

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/30/weekend-edition-retire-in-your-mind-even-if-you-love-your-job/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/25/the-joy-of-part-time-work/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/10/06/guest-post-why-youll-become-busier-after-retirement/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/10/15/the-tyranny-of-having-a-real-job/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/03/23/reader-story-the-man-who-thought-early-retirement-sucked/
http://jlcollinsnh.com/2011/06/06/why-you-need-f-you-money/

[RetiredAt63]

Some of us did like our work - look at my user name.  But work is not us, work is something we do.  I changed jobs when I could have retired, really enjoyed that last contract, am now really enjoying retirement.  But I could have retired at 60 if I had wanted to.  FI gives choices.

One of the (not so) hidden messages on the MMM blog is that the ability to have choices is good, and FI gives you more ability to have choices.  Even professionals who love their work - would you like to be a doctor, or a doctor with Medecins Sans Frontieres?  A hydro-geologist, or a hydro-geologist with Hydro-geologists Without Borders?  FI gives choices.

[EricL]

I know once I RE I will never be bored.

From the most recent GCC article:

The student went to his Zen master and complained: "Master, I'm bored."
The master pondered this then replied gravely: "Go then! Do the impossible!"
So the student went away bored.
-Zen story