Author Topic: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars  (Read 6470 times)

NoStacheOhio

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #100 on: April 13, 2018, 01:31:36 PM »
I don't disagree with much of anything you're said.  I don't like the idea of government trying to change our behavior, but we do need to nudged at times.  A gas tax works well until people overwhelmingly buy electric cars.  But in this case, the nudge works. 

Then, of course, you'd have to go to something like a "wheel tax".  But a Volt has the same number of wheels as an F150.  And if you wanted to go by weight, a Volt likely weighs about the same as a Mustang or Camaro.  The long pole in the tent is the fuel, so I think that there needs to be a hefty gas tax today to nudge the population into becoming more fuel economy conscious.  But obviously there would have to alternate funding in the future because of the unintended (or maybe intended) consequences of using less fuel.

Tires might be a better way to do it. Truck tires taxed at a higher rate, more driving = shorter tire life.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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Car Jack

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #101 on: April 13, 2018, 01:34:33 PM »
With the current administration, I'd not be surprised to see CAFE replaced by requirements to include a coal burning car in the lineup.  You know.....cleeeeeeeen coal.  Really cleeeeeeeeen coal.

Just Joe

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #102 on: April 13, 2018, 03:20:55 PM »
We've seen that a certain portion of the voters won't tolerate gov't nudges very well. Especially if the president happens to be from a minority group or I suspect, female.

chouchouu

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #103 on: April 13, 2018, 04:20:48 PM »
"Public Transit is quite often at least as safe as other options, but often fails on the other 5 measures."


Crime is what I'm comparing in safety.

No pickpockets in my car.
No armed robbers in my car.
No one publicly indecent in my car.
No drug addicts or alcoholics in my car.
No rapists in my car.
No child molesters in my car.
No unpredictable insane people in my car.

All of the above commonly found on public transit.
you forgot bedbugs and lice on public transit. Google it and be afraid.

The neighbor's kid I drop off at school might have those...

Seriously, have you ridden public transit recently?  Not much of that in LA/OC, I guess.  I took public buses all through high school in an urban part of the Bay Area almost 50 years ago.  Would not even consider it today.  The human urine smell on BART, the "upper" end of public transit,  is overwhelming.  No thanks!
I haven't used public transit in years (don't commute) but due to the homeless probelms in OC/LA most buses and bus stops are so massively trashed due to transients, many with mental health, drug or alcohol problems, I would be wary also. Biking for the win! Although it would be nice if they brought back small 4 cylinder station wagons like the Ford Focus or Jetta. I think a lot of people get SUVs because there really isn't much choice between a tiny hatchback or an SUV for those that need a larger cargo area.

I have ridden public transport every work day for the better part of 25 years.

Never been assaulted, robbed or flashed but I'll admit I now have a rather robust immune system after picking up every imaginable cold and flu virus under the sun in that time.
Well you're from Oz so maybe all the things there that kill all the other things there killed the bed bugs and lice - which of course are probably full of deadly toxic venom there. I have ridden public transit in other countries before (and in the US but not for awhile) and its all nice and clean and safe in comparison.

I've ridden public transport in LA and found it clean and convenient, although that was around ten years ago. The concierge at my hotel was shocked I wanted public transport to the museum and tried to get me to order a car because she had no idea how the transit system in LA works. I gave her a day and she found out, with many warnings how inefficient it is, unsafe etc. I took the bus from marina del ray and changed to another bus for the rest of the trip to The Getty Villa. I had left ample time as I was told it was unreliable but it ran exactly to time table. I also took the bus on another visit to the Getty Center. The NYC subway was a bit grotty and old but seemed to work fine and I found the BART perfectly good. Of course American public transport isn't as nice or as efficient as other developed or even developing nations but it's not the nightmare many people seem to think it is.

With regards to the topic of safety, I call SUVs "baby killers" because of the high rate of parents accidentally running over their own children due to the poor visibility of SUVs. The current rate is 50 children per week in the US with 70% of that number accounted to SUVs.  That number will only rise as they increase market share.

https://www.kidsandcars.org/how-kids-get-hurt/backovers/

Also should be noted that while SUVs might be marginally safer for those in the car they increase fatalities in two car collisions. Ie, you're much more likely to kill others on the road. I doubt many will care much for this argument, I have brought it up with those who talk about the "safety" of SUVs and their responses indicate the only safety they care about is their own. Also SUVs have higher fatalities rates than cars for single car crashes.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1847494/

They're basically responsible for the increased road death toll after many years of decreases due to safety and driver education.

Slow2FIRE

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #104 on: April 13, 2018, 04:35:56 PM »
...Seriously people think they could not possibly live without...air conditioning.  (I won't go into how safety and gov regulations have increased the price of cars, but for a interesting watch, YouTube the offset crash test of a '59 Bel Air to an '09 Malibu and tell me what car you'd rater be in)
...

I tried to make it through a Phoenix AZ summer without A/C.  No can do, not even close.

I kept a nice big bottle of ice & water in the drink holder (another of those options that you may be discussing even though you didn't specifically call it out), had a misting bottle that sprays a very fine atomized mist, nice infrared (and UV) rejection tint all around (including the front windshield) -> made it to about early June before I had to run the A/C.  When it is 115+ degrees Fahrenheit outside and the interior of your car gets to 140 degrees Fahrenheit, going without A/C wasn't something I could do.  I can't imagine my driving was improved by attempting this no A/C experiment (especially when I tried misting myself about every 10-15 seconds to keep cool).

JLee

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #105 on: April 14, 2018, 09:15:47 AM »
"Public Transit is quite often at least as safe as other options, but often fails on the other 5 measures."


Crime is what I'm comparing in safety.

No pickpockets in my car.
No armed robbers in my car.
No one publicly indecent in my car.
No drug addicts or alcoholics in my car.
No rapists in my car.
No child molesters in my car.
No unpredictable insane people in my car.

All of the above commonly found on public transit.
you forgot bedbugs and lice on public transit. Google it and be afraid.

The neighbor's kid I drop off at school might have those...

Seriously, have you ridden public transit recently?  Not much of that in LA/OC, I guess.  I took public buses all through high school in an urban part of the Bay Area almost 50 years ago.  Would not even consider it today.  The human urine smell on BART, the "upper" end of public transit,  is overwhelming.  No thanks!
I haven't used public transit in years (don't commute) but due to the homeless probelms in OC/LA most buses and bus stops are so massively trashed due to transients, many with mental health, drug or alcohol problems, I would be wary also. Biking for the win! Although it would be nice if they brought back small 4 cylinder station wagons like the Ford Focus or Jetta. I think a lot of people get SUVs because there really isn't much choice between a tiny hatchback or an SUV for those that need a larger cargo area.

I have ridden public transport every work day for the better part of 25 years.

Never been assaulted, robbed or flashed but I'll admit I now have a rather robust immune system after picking up every imaginable cold and flu virus under the sun in that time.
Well you're from Oz so maybe all the things there that kill all the other things there killed the bed bugs and lice - which of course are probably full of deadly toxic venom there. I have ridden public transit in other countries before (and in the US but not for awhile) and its all nice and clean and safe in comparison.

I've ridden public transport in LA and found it clean and convenient, although that was around ten years ago. The concierge at my hotel was shocked I wanted public transport to the museum and tried to get me to order a car because she had no idea how the transit system in LA works. I gave her a day and she found out, with many warnings how inefficient it is, unsafe etc. I took the bus from marina del ray and changed to another bus for the rest of the trip to The Getty Villa. I had left ample time as I was told it was unreliable but it ran exactly to time table. I also took the bus on another visit to the Getty Center. The NYC subway was a bit grotty and old but seemed to work fine and I found the BART perfectly good. Of course American public transport isn't as nice or as efficient as other developed or even developing nations but it's not the nightmare many people seem to think it is.

With regards to the topic of safety, I call SUVs "baby killers" because of the high rate of parents accidentally running over their own children due to the poor visibility of SUVs. The current rate is 50 children per week in the US with 70% of that number accounted to SUVs.  That number will only rise as they increase market share.

https://www.kidsandcars.org/how-kids-get-hurt/backovers/

Also should be noted that while SUVs might be marginally safer for those in the car they increase fatalities in two car collisions. Ie, you're much more likely to kill others on the road. I doubt many will care much for this argument, I have brought it up with those who talk about the "safety" of SUVs and their responses indicate the only safety they care about is their own. Also SUVs have higher fatalities rates than cars for single car crashes.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1847494/

They're basically responsible for the increased road death toll after many years of decreases due to safety and driver education.

Vehicle size doesn't mean much - if I put something behind your bumper in an economy car, you're not going to see it any better than you are in an SUV.  Incidentally, the source you provided said over 70% of the kids ran over by vehicles are struck with larger vehicles, like SUVs, trucks, and vans. The much-heralded minivan fits into this category too, so perhaps consider how you are selectively applying facts to fit your agenda.

Your single-vehicle crash statistics are talking about SUVs from 1988 to 2004, which is utterly irrelevant when applied to today's crossover market.

Regardless, backup cameras are mandatory on new cars anyway. https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/new-backup-camera-rule-cameras-will-be-mandatory-2-223739

If you visit NYC for two days and do nothing but take three stops back and forth in Midtown, then sure the subway is fine. If you do more than that? Not so much.
https://ny.curbed.com/2018/3/20/17141380/mta-subway-performance-on-time-delays
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/06/nyregion/subway-late-early-new-york.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/26/opinion/new-york-subway-mta.html
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 09:25:11 AM by JLee »

NoStacheOhio

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #106 on: April 14, 2018, 11:37:02 AM »
Vehicle size doesn't mean much - if I put something behind your bumper in an economy car, you're not going to see it any better than you are in an SUV.  Incidentally, the source you provided said over 70% of the kids ran over by vehicles are struck with larger vehicles, like SUVs, trucks, and vans. The much-heralded minivan fits into this category too, so perhaps consider how you are selectively applying facts to fit your agenda.

Your single-vehicle crash statistics are talking about SUVs from 1988 to 2004, which is utterly irrelevant when applied to today's crossover market.

Regardless, backup cameras are mandatory on new cars anyway. https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/new-backup-camera-rule-cameras-will-be-mandatory-2-223739

If you visit NYC for two days and do nothing but take three stops back and forth in Midtown, then sure the subway is fine. If you do more than that? Not so much.
https://ny.curbed.com/2018/3/20/17141380/mta-subway-performance-on-time-delays
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/06/nyregion/subway-late-early-new-york.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/26/opinion/new-york-subway-mta.html

Could also be self-selection bias; more families have larger vehicles than smaller ones.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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NorthernBlitz

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #107 on: April 16, 2018, 09:23:24 AM »
With the current administration, I'd not be surprised to see CAFE replaced by requirements to include a coal burning car in the lineup.  You know.....cleeeeeeeen coal.  Really cleeeeeeeeen coal.



If the stats are similar to the 2016 stats above, aren't 1/3 of EVs already coal powered cars?

From the chart above, I think we can think of EVs as:
- 1/3 as coal cars,
- 1/3 as natural gas cars,
- 1/3 hybrid nuclear / renewable energy vehicle.

RFAAOATB

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #108 on: April 16, 2018, 03:16:50 PM »
A couple of things I wanted to bring up that I don't have the math to back up:

First:  How many people can afford a more expensive and profitable bottom tier SUV if they were looking at an inexpensive small car?

Would the price increase to a more profitable, less efficient style lead to a lower total number or automobiles bought such that the total fuel consumption is lower than it would be if there were more affordable options that happened to be more efficient?  Maybe a family having one SUV instead of two small cars or someone who has to stretch too far to get a small car, and decides against a vehicle at the SUB starting price.

Second: To encourage the use of public transportation be it buses or subways when they are associated with the dirty, slow, last resort options of the lower classes.  Would it make sense to have premium buses and designate one or two cars on the train as premium cars that cost more, are more luxurious, and attract a more affluent crowd?  They have to be in aggregate more efficient than personal cars, but cool enough to attract the right people.  They also have to be expensive enough to discourage the lower classes from using them but not so expensive they aren't used enough to be profitable. 

desertadapted

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #109 on: April 16, 2018, 04:04:36 PM »
Quote
If the stats are similar to the 2016 stats above, aren't 1/3 of EVs already coal powered cars?

From the chart above, I think we can think of EVs as:
- 1/3 as coal cars,
- 1/3 as natural gas cars,
- 1/3 hybrid nuclear / renewable energy vehicle.

Although 3-4 years out of date, this provides somewhat more reliable state-level power mix information.  While it can reasonably be further refined by utility company, time of day, etc., I'm not aware of any easily available information that gets more granular than the state level.  It seems to me that where you live is a better predictor of how EV's are powered than a a more arbitrary 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 split.

https://www.npr.org/2015/09/10/319535020/coal-gas-nuclear-hydro-how-your-state-generates-power

Gone Fishing

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #110 on: April 16, 2018, 07:49:16 PM »
Quote
If the stats are similar to the 2016 stats above, aren't 1/3 of EVs already coal powered cars?

From the chart above, I think we can think of EVs as:
- 1/3 as coal cars,
- 1/3 as natural gas cars,
- 1/3 hybrid nuclear / renewable energy vehicle.

Although 3-4 years out of date, this provides somewhat more reliable state-level power mix information.  While it can reasonably be further refined by utility company, time of day, etc., I'm not aware of any easily available information that gets more granular than the state level.  It seems to me that where you live is a better predictor of how EV's are powered than a a more arbitrary 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 split.

https://www.npr.org/2015/09/10/319535020/coal-gas-nuclear-hydro-how-your-state-generates-power

Interesting data, thanks for the link!

Radagast

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #111 on: April 16, 2018, 08:26:51 PM »
This is why instead of counter-productive CAFE regulations that do nothing but encourage car makers to play games with car classifications (that SUV is actually a truck, har har!), we need to directly tax vehicles through a formula based on weight, emissions, MPG, CO2 emissions and miles driven.

I mostly agree, except that you could just tax the hell out of the fuel (at least until there are too many electrics).
Wear-and-tear to roads is almost entirely a function a weight and traffic volume. Roadway damage resulting from axle weight increases exponentially, while damage from traffic volume increases linearly. 100 million bicycle trips scarcely equal one trip in a truck in terms of pavement damage. I like tax = miles * (weight + emissions) as a basic framework to recapture the lost costs of vehicle ownership.

libertarian4321

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #112 on: April 17, 2018, 04:54:36 AM »
Cars are becoming more like the family room than a mode of transportation because people spend much more of their time in them than in the past.  Driving to work, school, stores, and recreation takes up a lot of waking hours these days.  Traffic everywhere you go and hours spent stuck in it.  Entertainment systems to keep the kids quiet and occupied and the phones for multitasking while inching your way onto the freeway.  Gotta be bigger and taller than the next guy because of the perceived safety advantage.  Cars equal freedom and now comfort and safety.

It's going to be tough to move back to limited car use and public transit.  Nobody wants that when safe, clean, and comfortable private transportation to anywhere is available at any time.
All these reasons is why I support passing a law that would automatically raise the gasoline tax by 20 cents every year for the next 10 years.

The people in the cars outnumber you.  People vote for all kinds of tax increases for public transit, in hopes the other guy takes it when it's built so the roads will be clearer.  Unless public transit is safe, clean, reliable, comfortable, and convenient, people that are able to avoid using it will choose to do so.

Yup.

"Convenient" being the key.

When I need/want to go somewhere, I want to go now.  I don't want to find a bus schedule, trudge to the bus stop, sit around and wait for the bus, then "enjoy" the ride with society's finest.

That's why public transit in most cities (usually buses) is largely the realm of the desperate who have no alternative.

libertarian4321

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #113 on: April 17, 2018, 05:38:04 AM »
We've seen that a certain portion of the voters won't tolerate gov't nudges very well. Especially if the president happens to be from a minority group or I suspect, female.

Consider for a moment the possibility that free adult citizens may just not like being told what to do by obnoxious, know-it-all do gooders who think they have the right to use government to bludgeon people into compliance with their world view?  A world view that most Americans, including many Democrats, don't agree with.

Could it be that they are fighting more against overbearing government than "the black guy" or "the woman?"

I don't recall Bill Clinton, who's as white as you can be, passing a whole lot of that sort of legislation, even with control of both houses of Congress.  Because he knew the American people wouldn't put up with it.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #114 on: April 17, 2018, 05:42:33 AM »
We've seen that a certain portion of the voters won't tolerate gov't nudges very well. Especially if the president happens to be from a minority group or I suspect, female.

Consider for a moment the possibility that free adult citizens may just not like being told what to do by obnoxious, know-it-all do gooders who think they have the right to use government to bludgeon people into compliance with their world view?  A world view that most Americans, including many Democrats, don't agree with.

Could it be that they are fighting more against overbearing government than "the black guy" or "the woman?"

I don't recall Bill Clinton, who's as white as you can be, passing a whole lot of that sort of legislation, even with control of both houses of Congress.  Because he knew the American people wouldn't put up with it.

Do you know what "nudge" means?
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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GuitarStv

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #115 on: April 17, 2018, 08:05:23 AM »
We've seen that a certain portion of the voters won't tolerate gov't nudges very well. Especially if the president happens to be from a minority group or I suspect, female.

Consider for a moment the possibility that free adult citizens may just not like being told what to do by obnoxious, know-it-all do gooders who think they have the right to use government to bludgeon people into compliance with their world view?  A world view that most Americans, including many Democrats, don't agree with.

Could it be that they are fighting more against overbearing government than "the black guy" or "the woman?"

I don't recall Bill Clinton, who's as white as you can be, passing a whole lot of that sort of legislation, even with control of both houses of Congress.  Because he knew the American people wouldn't put up with it.

I'm not sure I understand your complaint.  You often self-identify as a Libertarian.

One of the core tenants of Libertarian philosophy is that if you leave other people alone, you should be left alone to do what you want.  If you cause harm to people through force however, that's unacceptable and a reasonable time for the government to step in.  That's basically what the concept of 'natural rights' is all about.  So the government is allowed to create a police force to stop murders, slavery, and theft for example, because these violate natural rights.  When you drive an inefficient vehicle, you are creating and contributing to the pollution that directly causes harm to others . . . about 58,000 deaths a year in the US alone (https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/10/22/mit-study-vehicle-emissions-cause-58000-premature-deaths-yearly-in-u-s/).  That violates the natural rights of these people to breathe clean air and stay alive.

Given that, Libertarians should be wholeheartedly on-board with government pollution controls on vehicles.  Free adult citizens might not like being told they can't keep slaves, or murder other people by obnoxious know-it-all do gooders . . . but they're in the wrong from a libertarian perspective as their actions violate natural rights of others.  So too with driving a vehicle that spews out significant pollution.

JLee

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #116 on: April 17, 2018, 08:45:48 AM »
We've seen that a certain portion of the voters won't tolerate gov't nudges very well. Especially if the president happens to be from a minority group or I suspect, female.

Consider for a moment the possibility that free adult citizens may just not like being told what to do by obnoxious, know-it-all do gooders who think they have the right to use government to bludgeon people into compliance with their world view?  A world view that most Americans, including many Democrats, don't agree with.

Could it be that they are fighting more against overbearing government than "the black guy" or "the woman?"

I don't recall Bill Clinton, who's as white as you can be, passing a whole lot of that sort of legislation, even with control of both houses of Congress.  Because he knew the American people wouldn't put up with it.

I'm not sure I understand your complaint.  You often self-identify as a Libertarian.

One of the core tenants of Libertarian philosophy is that if you leave other people alone, you should be left alone to do what you want.  If you cause harm to people through force however, that's unacceptable and a reasonable time for the government to step in.  That's basically what the concept of 'natural rights' is all about.  So the government is allowed to create a police force to stop murders, slavery, and theft for example, because these violate natural rights.  When you drive an inefficient vehicle, you are creating and contributing to the pollution that directly causes harm to others . . . about 58,000 deaths a year in the US alone (https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/10/22/mit-study-vehicle-emissions-cause-58000-premature-deaths-yearly-in-u-s/).  That violates the natural rights of these people to breathe clean air and stay alive.

Given that, Libertarians should be wholeheartedly on-board with government pollution controls on vehicles.  Free adult citizens might not like being told they can't keep slaves, or murder other people by obnoxious know-it-all do gooders . . . but they're in the wrong from a libertarian perspective as their actions violate natural rights of others.  So too with driving a vehicle that spews out significant pollution.

When you drive an efficient vehicle, sometimes it's worse.  A Fiat 500 produces over twice the NOx and over triple the hydrocarbons as a Ford SVT Raptor does.

For some more perspective, a half hour working in your yard with a 2 stroke leafblower pollutes as much as driving a Raptor from Texas to Anchorage, AK (nearly 4000 miles).

Source

tldr; you are conflating emissions controls with efficiency.

robartsd

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #117 on: April 17, 2018, 09:23:49 AM »
I'm not sure I understand your complaint.  You often self-identify as a Libertarian.
I think he's just got tired of the race card being played every time he objected to policies put forth by the Obama administration and was responding to Just Joe playing the card again. As a libertarian he opposes government "nudges" wherever they come from.

One of the core tenants of Libertarian philosophy is that if you leave other people alone, you should be left alone to do what you want.  If you cause harm to people through force however, that's unacceptable and a reasonable time for the government to step in.  That's basically what the concept of 'natural rights' is all about.  So the government is allowed to create a police force to stop murders, slavery, and theft for example, because these violate natural rights.  When you drive an inefficient vehicle, you are creating and contributing to the pollution that directly causes harm to others . . . about 58,000 deaths a year in the US alone (https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/10/22/mit-study-vehicle-emissions-cause-58000-premature-deaths-yearly-in-u-s/).  That violates the natural rights of these people to breathe clean air and stay alive.

Given that, Libertarians should be wholeheartedly on-board with government pollution controls on vehicles.  Free adult citizens might not like being told they can't keep slaves, or murder other people by obnoxious know-it-all do gooders . . . but they're in the wrong from a libertarian perspective as their actions violate natural rights of others.  So too with driving a vehicle that spews out significant pollution.
I identify with Libertarian philosophy of government and think taxation based on externalities like as pollution is a great idea (much better than taxes based on productive economic activity like income an sales). I've been criticized on these forums when suggesting such taxes as an alternative to hard caps.

For pollution I think taxing the fossil fuel is easier and better than taxing the vehicle miles (and could be applied fairly to non-transportation fossil fuel use as well).

For road maintenance I think there should be some combination of:
  • property taxes (perhaps based on frontage length)
  • congestion tolls
  • weight adjusted vehicle miles driven

GuitarStv

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #118 on: April 17, 2018, 10:22:44 AM »
We've seen that a certain portion of the voters won't tolerate gov't nudges very well. Especially if the president happens to be from a minority group or I suspect, female.

Consider for a moment the possibility that free adult citizens may just not like being told what to do by obnoxious, know-it-all do gooders who think they have the right to use government to bludgeon people into compliance with their world view?  A world view that most Americans, including many Democrats, don't agree with.

Could it be that they are fighting more against overbearing government than "the black guy" or "the woman?"

I don't recall Bill Clinton, who's as white as you can be, passing a whole lot of that sort of legislation, even with control of both houses of Congress.  Because he knew the American people wouldn't put up with it.

I'm not sure I understand your complaint.  You often self-identify as a Libertarian.

One of the core tenants of Libertarian philosophy is that if you leave other people alone, you should be left alone to do what you want.  If you cause harm to people through force however, that's unacceptable and a reasonable time for the government to step in.  That's basically what the concept of 'natural rights' is all about.  So the government is allowed to create a police force to stop murders, slavery, and theft for example, because these violate natural rights.  When you drive an inefficient vehicle, you are creating and contributing to the pollution that directly causes harm to others . . . about 58,000 deaths a year in the US alone (https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/10/22/mit-study-vehicle-emissions-cause-58000-premature-deaths-yearly-in-u-s/).  That violates the natural rights of these people to breathe clean air and stay alive.

Given that, Libertarians should be wholeheartedly on-board with government pollution controls on vehicles.  Free adult citizens might not like being told they can't keep slaves, or murder other people by obnoxious know-it-all do gooders . . . but they're in the wrong from a libertarian perspective as their actions violate natural rights of others.  So too with driving a vehicle that spews out significant pollution.

When you drive an efficient vehicle, sometimes it's worse.  A Fiat 500 produces over twice the NOx and over triple the hydrocarbons as a Ford SVT Raptor does.

For some more perspective, a half hour working in your yard with a 2 stroke leafblower pollutes as much as driving a Raptor from Texas to Anchorage, AK (nearly 4000 miles).

Source

tldr; you are conflating emissions controls with efficiency.

Did we really need yet another reason to discourage use of leaf blowers?  :P  It's already annoyingly loud and less efficient than just grabbing a rake.

But yes, you raise a valid point.  I'd be happy to increase taxes upon the worst polluting vehicles, and let people pay as much as they want for gas otherwise.  (Although the price we currently pay at the pump is artificially deflated by ignoring the damage that any burning of fossil fuel does to our health and the environment.)

pecunia

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #119 on: April 17, 2018, 10:29:15 AM »
Well,.....

Seems to me that American car companies did this once before when they dumped the Pinto and the Vega for big cars.  It was kind of obvious that they didn't like building small cars back then either.  The Japanese ate their lunch.  So,.....they'll be all tooled up for the big cars again and history will repeat itself.

In 1980 I was working in Ann Arbor.  One of the guys who worked at Chrysler told me, "People don't want small cars."  I guess I wasn't a person to him.  I think a lot of the people attracted to the car industry like racing and lots of horsepower.  Building econoboxes has never been as much fun. Who killed the electric car a few years back?

To quote the lyrics from an old song, "When will they ever learn?"

dogboyslim

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #120 on: April 17, 2018, 11:53:00 AM »

Did we really need yet another reason to discourage use of leaf blowers?  :P  It's already annoyingly loud and less efficient than just grabbing a rake.

My leaf blower is 1/3 coal powered!  ;)  Also, not nearly as loud as gas.  I use it when I need to blow out the laundry lint residue from the dryer.  Works wonders.  Let's see your rake do that!

Purple Economist

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #121 on: April 19, 2018, 09:11:31 PM »
We've seen that a certain portion of the voters won't tolerate gov't nudges very well. Especially if the president happens to be from a minority group or I suspect, female.

Consider for a moment the possibility that free adult citizens may just not like being told what to do by obnoxious, know-it-all do gooders who think they have the right to use government to bludgeon people into compliance with their world view?  A world view that most Americans, including many Democrats, don't agree with.

Could it be that they are fighting more against overbearing government than "the black guy" or "the woman?"

I don't recall Bill Clinton, who's as white as you can be, passing a whole lot of that sort of legislation, even with control of both houses of Congress.  Because he knew the American people wouldn't put up with it.

I'm not sure I understand your complaint.  You often self-identify as a Libertarian.

One of the core tenants of Libertarian philosophy is that if you leave other people alone, you should be left alone to do what you want.  If you cause harm to people through force however, that's unacceptable and a reasonable time for the government to step in.  That's basically what the concept of 'natural rights' is all about.  So the government is allowed to create a police force to stop murders, slavery, and theft for example, because these violate natural rights.  When you drive an inefficient vehicle, you are creating and contributing to the pollution that directly causes harm to others . . . about 58,000 deaths a year in the US alone (https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/10/22/mit-study-vehicle-emissions-cause-58000-premature-deaths-yearly-in-u-s/).  That violates the natural rights of these people to breathe clean air and stay alive.

Given that, Libertarians should be wholeheartedly on-board with government pollution controls on vehicles.  Free adult citizens might not like being told they can't keep slaves, or murder other people by obnoxious know-it-all do gooders . . . but they're in the wrong from a libertarian perspective as their actions violate natural rights of others.  So too with driving a vehicle that spews out significant pollution.

Your application of the non-aggression principle is indirect, flimsy and not universally agreed up on at best.

Additionally, your proposed cure is worse than the disease.

sol

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #122 on: April 19, 2018, 09:21:59 PM »
It seems to me that where you live is a better predictor of how EV's are powered than a a more arbitrary 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 split.

Even better than where you live is where your electricity actually comes from.  Your utility releases an annual report that can tell you what fraction of your grid electrons are from which sources.  For example, Seattle's:  http://www.seattle.gov/light/FuelMix/

Or you can cheat the system, and put solar panels on your roof to charge your electric car.  My car is definitely not 1/3 coal-powered, no matter how you slice it.

bacchi

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #123 on: April 19, 2018, 09:55:11 PM »

Did we really need yet another reason to discourage use of leaf blowers?  :P  It's already annoyingly loud and less efficient than just grabbing a rake.

My leaf blower is 1/3 coal powered!  ;)  Also, not nearly as loud as gas.  I use it when I need to blow out the laundry lint residue from the dryer.  Works wonders.  Let's see your rake do that!

I....use my hands. ?? Or the (solar-powered) vacuum cleaner.