Author Topic: Lawyers on FIRE  (Read 6105 times)

sui generis

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Lawyers on FIRE
« on: March 22, 2018, 03:38:48 PM »
Any other lawyers that have or will FIRE completely from paid legal work?  I really resonated with the some of the perspective-shifting in this thread (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/lawyer-stepping-off-the-treadmill-instead-of-a-window-ledge/msg96102/#msg96102) and while it will be hard to turn away from that drive you have to have (esp in BigLaw), I have no desire to keep on in any paid capacity. 

For similar folks: Have you maintained (or do you plan to maintain) active bar membership (including fees and MCLE) on your own?  And I'm curious whether you've found any particularly good volunteering opportunities using your legal training for after FIRE?  I don't want to do a lot, but feel like I'm duty-bound to do at least some.  There are plenty of orgs, of course, but interested in what actual FIRE folks have found most rewarding or valuable.

Any other issues unique to lawyers that FIRE?  I'm all ears!

Tabaxus

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2018, 05:42:33 PM »
Once I retire, I am 100% done with paid work, and since my specialty doesn't really jive with any meaningful pro bono work, I won't be doing that either.  I suppose I could start over and learn a new skillset.  But, nope.  So once I retire, I'll be letting it all expire.

I vacillate between wanting to retire yesterday, wanting to retire "RIGHT NOW IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS GODFORSAKEN PHONE CALL, I HATE YOU ALL", and being resigned to another 20 years of work, at a minimum, because I probably won't be able to retire until my kid is through college. 

sui generis

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2018, 05:52:45 PM »
Once I retire, I am 100% done with paid work, and since my specialty doesn't really jive with any meaningful pro bono work, I won't be doing that either.  I suppose I could start over and learn a new skillset.  But, nope.  So once I retire, I'll be letting it all expire.

Same with my specialty.  I think I'm going to grit my teeth and try to learn a little something new (I interned for the ACLU one summer, and I would be willing to do that work for that kind of organization), but it seems like the most needed thing is like landlord/tenant and employment stuff, and thinking about learning that makes me want to cry and people needing that kind of help probably deserve better than me.

...wanting to retire "RIGHT NOW IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS GODFORSAKEN PHONE CALL, I HATE YOU ALL"....
hahahahaha, we must be on a lot of the same calls!!!  Oh, and weird to think how many other people on those calls might be thinking that same thing about us, huh? Like 85% of us on the call are just chanting about how we hate each other while the last 15% are saying this: https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/im-going-to-close-this-deal-using-business-words-ive-heard-men-yell-in-airports
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 05:54:24 PM by sui generis »

chrisgermany

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2018, 12:41:47 AM »
Former general counsel here. I retired 5 years ago at 55 when DH retired on a nice pension.
I have kept my formal registration as lawyer and had prepared to be a mediator for years, just in case. But I found no interest to deal with other peoples problems any more, other than help friends and family with more common sense than legal stuff.
I have loved my job, but it was enough.
So now I do what I want, handle our money stuff and love being FIREd.
No boredom yet.

BFGirl

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2018, 03:49:55 AM »
I don't think I'll do paid legal work or pro bono.  Although I enjoy helping people, I'm really tired of solving their problems.  I plan to do some volunteer work, but not of the legal kind.

I'll likely go inactive with the bar, but it's easy to go active again if I want.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 03:54:12 AM by BFGirl »

IllusionNW

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2018, 11:36:37 AM »
We aren't planning to fully FIRE until our kiddos graduate high school.  That means several more years of full time work to keep building up the nest egg.  And then probably downshifting to more part-time work to cover expenses until full retirement.  We're hoping to slow travel after retirement and I don't love the law, so I likely won't be doing any pro bono work.

OurTown

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2018, 12:15:59 PM »
Mediation might be a good post-FIRE gig for me. 

kaizen soze

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2018, 01:10:03 PM »
I FIREd two years ago, and I've kept up my law license and CLEs.  Is it worth it? So far, no, because I've not done a bit of legal work. I think I'll pay for it for one more year and if I'm still not doing anything with it, go suspended the year after since next year will be my CLE reporting year.

I haven't looked for any opportunities to do part time or pro bono work. I've just been content with the other things I've got going on. Maybe that will change. 

dude

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2018, 07:10:28 AM »
Fed attorney here, retiring next year. Never plan to practice law again. Won't keep my bar membership active. If for some reason I ever see the need to jump back in, it wouldn't be too hard to go active again.

traveling_vines

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2018, 12:20:29 PM »
Mediation might be a good post-FIRE gig for me.

This may be what I do. Or try to negotiate a greatly reduced, non-revenue generating position at my (small) firm. For now, I'm too far out from sufficiently comfortable FI to know exactly how I'll want to structure my departure. If all goes according to plan, I'll be in my mid-40s when RE becomes an option. To maintain flexibility and ease reentry into the practice of law, I'll probably keep paying bar dues at my own expense. My state doesn't have mandatory CLE, which also makes the decision easier (and expense lower).

Slow2FIRE

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2018, 01:56:03 PM »
I am starting to come around to the idea of pro bono Patent prosecution for micro-entities when I FIRE.  Also considering contacting an organization that works to dismantle what they consider to be "bad patents"...not sure how amenable they would be to allowing me to work the few hours I am interested in putting in.

MiserlyMiser

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2018, 02:24:36 PM »
I plan to go inactive.  In my state, I'll have to pay an annual fee, but no CLE requirements.  The other alternative to "active" is "retired."  It's not difficult to switch between active and inactive, but it's a huge hassle to come back from retired.  Also, my state allows inactive members to practice pro bono for certain designated organizations, so it wouldn't have to mean a complete break from the law. 

CNM

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2018, 02:48:08 PM »
I'm a lawyer.  I'm not FIRED and I'm not exactly close either. (Estimated another 10 years, but highly dependent on how my spouse's new business goes.)

I sort of see myself doing a semi-FIRED thing for a while.  I'm thinking brief writing on a contract basis and/or mediation.  Probably more into the brief writing thing than mediation, TBH.  Like a lot you have posted, I'm not that excited about dealing with assholes face to face anymore. 

I have a pretty nice thing going right now at my small law firm - the billable hours aren't crazy or anything.  But, seriously, the assholes I deal with in my litigation practice, the lies THE LIES!!, are hard to take and I want to just yell screaming sometimes.

sui generis

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2018, 03:06:38 PM »

I sort of see myself doing a semi-FIRED thing for a while.  I'm thinking brief writing on a contract basis and/or mediation.  Probably more into the brief writing thing than mediation, TBH.  Like a lot you have posted, I'm not that excited about dealing with assholes face to face anymore. 


Your post just reminded me I've heard Slate advertising for a legal writer lately on their podcasts.  Last time I was listening to Dahlia Lithwick, they mentioned it - could be of interest to some here as a part-time gig! 

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2018, 03:18:25 PM »
There’s another option: teach!  Share what you’ve learned with others. Deliver CLE’s or become an adjunct. Or, especially if you’re female, go through a board training course and get yourself on some boards, many pay for that.

use2betrix

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2018, 03:22:32 PM »
I vacillate between wanting to retire yesterday, wanting to retire "RIGHT NOW IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS GODFORSAKEN PHONE CALL, I HATE YOU ALL"

I’m not in law, but this is still probably one of the most resonating posts I’ve ever read on this entire forum.

montgomery212

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2018, 03:26:12 PM »
There’s another option: teach!  Share what you’ve learned with others. Deliver CLE’s or become an adjunct. Or, especially if you’re female, go through a board training course and get yourself on some boards, many pay for that.

Any thoughts or ideas on how to pursue a corporate board? It's something I've always wanted as a future goal since I was in college (finance undergrad; law school; ~10 yrs as a big firm litigator in NYC; ~3 in the gov't in financial regulation; next steps TBD); my interest would be a corporate board rather than for a non profit/charity, yet I'm not suggesting that it must be a fortune 500 that is a household name kind of company either. And yet if I ever mention this idea re boards to any lawyer I get shot down with the -- oh no board is going to take a lawyer, they want finance people. (Yet I think companies are getting wise to litigation and compliance issues, so you'd think someone with that skill set with a business mind would not be the worst addition on the world). Yet I have no clue where to even start.

LWYRUP

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2018, 03:29:50 PM »
Wanted to chime in here.

I don't have a timeline for FIRE.  My job frustrates me sometimes but at the same time I just don't think I am at the end of my legal / career story.  I also want to make absolutely sure I am FI (with cushion) before I make any further significant downshifts in terms of compensation.  (I took some of the gas off already by leaving a big firm but have no plans to coast to FIRE or work for a nonprofit or anything.)  I need to first hit my financial goals and then I'll see where the dust settles.  It's hard to keep pushing sometimes but also hard to walk away from a lucrative gig prior to FIRE while so many are struggling.  So I am just here making hay while the sun shines.   

I am here because I am sure I do not want to be working at this pace into my 60s.  It would straight-up damage my health (in many ways already has in my 30s).  So at a minimum I'll be downshifting later in my career.  But more fundamentally, I want to be reasonably set close to 40 so from there on out is personal choice as to what I do and for how long and for whom. 
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 03:38:38 PM by blinx7 »

MrUpwardlyMobile

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2018, 09:01:12 PM »
There’s another option: teach!  Share what you’ve learned with others. Deliver CLE’s or become an adjunct. Or, especially if you’re female, go through a board training course and get yourself on some boards, many pay for that.

Any thoughts or ideas on how to pursue a corporate board? It's something I've always wanted as a future goal since I was in college (finance undergrad; law school; ~10 yrs as a big firm litigator in NYC; ~3 in the gov't in financial regulation; next steps TBD); my interest would be a corporate board rather than for a non profit/charity, yet I'm not suggesting that it must be a fortune 500 that is a household name kind of company either. And yet if I ever mention this idea re boards to any lawyer I get shot down with the -- oh no board is going to take a lawyer, they want finance people. (Yet I think companies are getting wise to litigation and compliance issues, so you'd think someone with that skill set with a business mind would not be the worst addition on the world). Yet I have no clue where to even start.

You get on corporate boards by having connections mostly.  Lawyers are generally not thought of as worth it unless your connections are from the finance/venture capital angle.

On the flip side, lawyers are a dime a dozen on non profit boards and it’s almost ridiculously easy to get on one.

Trifle

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2018, 03:31:10 AM »
Lawyer here, currently working for a corporation in an executive non-legal capacity, FIREing early next year.  I don't currently do any pro bono.  After FIRE I will keep up my license as I use it for my side gig, which is some legal/consulting work.   My side gig is easy, enjoyable money and I hope to continue doing it as long as I can. 

Hard to say now what FIRE will bring, but I could see myself doing some volunteering or pro bono once I am no longer chained to my full time desk.  One thing I can tell you is that I will never, ever work for a law firm again, NFW.  Soul-sucking hellholes.  Just the other day I got a call from the last firm I worked at, asking me if I'd ever consider coming back.  Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

 

totoro

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2018, 10:29:48 AM »
I've maintained active membership.  I use it to assist family and friends mainly.

I spend most of my time on family pursuits.  This year is a NA road trip looking at grad schools for the eldest child and just hang out.  Next year Germany, Israel and Japan with another child and assisting him with filming a documentary.  I have zero desire to handle time sensitive high responsibility/liability matters for money anymore.  I'd rather use my skill set and time to assist those I love reach whatever goals they set or solve issues I can help with.

montgomery212

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2018, 08:34:16 PM »
Lawyer here, currently working for a corporation in an executive non-legal capacity, FIREing early next year.  I don't currently do any pro bono.  After FIRE I will keep up my license as I use it for my side gig, which is some legal/consulting work.   My side gig is easy, enjoyable money and I hope to continue doing it as long as I can. 

Hard to say now what FIRE will bring, but I could see myself doing some volunteering or pro bono once I am no longer chained to my full time desk.  One thing I can tell you is that I will never, ever work for a law firm again, NFW.  Soul-sucking hellholes.  Just the other day I got a call from the last firm I worked at, asking me if I'd ever consider coming back.  Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

 

Can you say what kind of executive, non lawyer role you have (even generally)? I've been in law for 13 years (commercial litigation - big firm in NYC and then a financial regulator). Finance undergrad education. I feel like I am done/soon will be done with law and would love to get to a business role - so I'm always interested in how others made that jump.

Trifle

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2018, 03:33:40 AM »
Lawyer here, currently working for a corporation in an executive non-legal capacity, FIREing early next year.  I don't currently do any pro bono.  After FIRE I will keep up my license as I use it for my side gig, which is some legal/consulting work.   My side gig is easy, enjoyable money and I hope to continue doing it as long as I can. 

Hard to say now what FIRE will bring, but I could see myself doing some volunteering or pro bono once I am no longer chained to my full time desk.  One thing I can tell you is that I will never, ever work for a law firm again, NFW.  Soul-sucking hellholes.  Just the other day I got a call from the last firm I worked at, asking me if I'd ever consider coming back.  Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

 

Can you say what kind of executive, non lawyer role you have (even generally)? I've been in law for 13 years (commercial litigation - big firm in NYC and then a financial regulator). Finance undergrad education. I feel like I am done/soon will be done with law and would love to get to a business role - so I'm always interested in how others made that jump.

Sure -- My first transition was from a law firm to in house counsel at a corporation.  Then over the next few years I morphed into other roles -- operations, regulatory compliance, and HR, first for that same company, and then I moved on to another.  Currently in an operational/managerial role.  (Can't be more specific, sorry -- otherwise clever folks on this forum can figure out who I am.  :)

There are a couple threads on here about lawyers making the jump to in house counsel if you are curious about that.  I think that may be the most common escape route(?)

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2018, 08:09:14 AM »
I have an ongoing “Employment Dilemma” thread in the Ask a Mustachian subforum. My experiences outlined there, my conversations with more senior lawyers, and the comments in this thread confirm one thing for me: you’re either all in or all out.

I think my current boss is trying to transition, and she attempts to delegate absolutely everything. She’s in the office about 4-8 hours a week, takes a ton of vacations, etc. It’s an absolute disaster and tire fire.

When I achieve FI, I’ll probably slow down my practice and only handle a few cases at a time. But when I’m done, I’m done, period.

FIFoFum

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2018, 08:26:51 AM »
I essentially moved to a different state when I hit FIRE/SWAMI status. I made sure to waive into the bar in new state before the time line ran out for being able to do this (based on having recently been engaged in full-time law job). This is critical to think about for people thinking about relocating in FIRE.

Right now, I'm staying active (on my own dime), because I wanted to be free to do pro bono. I intend to switch on/off active status, based on how things go with this. At least the pro bono stuff I'm doing gets me free access to CLEs. Since I'm in my early 40s and relatively lean in my FIRE, I view maintaining a license where I live - whether active or inactive - as a form of insurance.

sui generis

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2018, 03:02:58 PM »
Although my work as a lawyer has never been as stressful or demanding as those we often hear about, I still know I need to get out of an industry where workers have much higher rates of heavy drinking, depression and suicide than most fields.  It's hard for me to believe that some people practice for decades and decades, when it can get so bad.  Some of you may have seen this article (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/15/business/lawyers-addiction-mental-health.html) when it came out, and this quote is especially chilling to me:

Quote
Of all the heartbreaking details of his story, the one that continues to haunt me is this:  The history on his cellphone shows the last call he ever made was for work.  Peter, vomiting, unable to sit up, slipping in and out of consciousness, had managed, somehow, to dial into a conference call.

Heartbreaking indeed.


Anon648

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Re: Lawyers on FIRE
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2018, 06:18:16 PM »
I left biglaw several years ago and work as a solo in a niche corporate practice. My wife and I are working toward a fat semi-FIRE 10+ years in the future. I plan to maintain my license as I like what I do, have a lot of control over my schedule, and will probably continue to practice for at least a few hours (if not a day or two) per week after we are FI. Most of my work can also be done remotely as long as I'm not too many time zones away from my clients. Over the past couple years I've been able to gradually tilt the practice more and more toward work that I enjoy and I'm optimistic that I can continue to do so. Basically, I've been focusing my formal and informal marketing on the work that I'm most interested in rather than what's most lucrative. That's a big factor in my desire to keep working after FI.