Author Topic: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars  (Read 13104 times)

chouchouu

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #100 on: April 13, 2018, 04:20:48 PM »
"Public Transit is quite often at least as safe as other options, but often fails on the other 5 measures."


Crime is what I'm comparing in safety.

No pickpockets in my car.
No armed robbers in my car.
No one publicly indecent in my car.
No drug addicts or alcoholics in my car.
No rapists in my car.
No child molesters in my car.
No unpredictable insane people in my car.

All of the above commonly found on public transit.
you forgot bedbugs and lice on public transit. Google it and be afraid.

The neighbor's kid I drop off at school might have those...

Seriously, have you ridden public transit recently?  Not much of that in LA/OC, I guess.  I took public buses all through high school in an urban part of the Bay Area almost 50 years ago.  Would not even consider it today.  The human urine smell on BART, the "upper" end of public transit,  is overwhelming.  No thanks!
I haven't used public transit in years (don't commute) but due to the homeless probelms in OC/LA most buses and bus stops are so massively trashed due to transients, many with mental health, drug or alcohol problems, I would be wary also. Biking for the win! Although it would be nice if they brought back small 4 cylinder station wagons like the Ford Focus or Jetta. I think a lot of people get SUVs because there really isn't much choice between a tiny hatchback or an SUV for those that need a larger cargo area.

I have ridden public transport every work day for the better part of 25 years.

Never been assaulted, robbed or flashed but I'll admit I now have a rather robust immune system after picking up every imaginable cold and flu virus under the sun in that time.
Well you're from Oz so maybe all the things there that kill all the other things there killed the bed bugs and lice - which of course are probably full of deadly toxic venom there. I have ridden public transit in other countries before (and in the US but not for awhile) and its all nice and clean and safe in comparison.

I've ridden public transport in LA and found it clean and convenient, although that was around ten years ago. The concierge at my hotel was shocked I wanted public transport to the museum and tried to get me to order a car because she had no idea how the transit system in LA works. I gave her a day and she found out, with many warnings how inefficient it is, unsafe etc. I took the bus from marina del ray and changed to another bus for the rest of the trip to The Getty Villa. I had left ample time as I was told it was unreliable but it ran exactly to time table. I also took the bus on another visit to the Getty Center. The NYC subway was a bit grotty and old but seemed to work fine and I found the BART perfectly good. Of course American public transport isn't as nice or as efficient as other developed or even developing nations but it's not the nightmare many people seem to think it is.

With regards to the topic of safety, I call SUVs "baby killers" because of the high rate of parents accidentally running over their own children due to the poor visibility of SUVs. The current rate is 50 children per week in the US with 70% of that number accounted to SUVs.  That number will only rise as they increase market share.

https://www.kidsandcars.org/how-kids-get-hurt/backovers/

Also should be noted that while SUVs might be marginally safer for those in the car they increase fatalities in two car collisions. Ie, you're much more likely to kill others on the road. I doubt many will care much for this argument, I have brought it up with those who talk about the "safety" of SUVs and their responses indicate the only safety they care about is their own. Also SUVs have higher fatalities rates than cars for single car crashes.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1847494/

They're basically responsible for the increased road death toll after many years of decreases due to safety and driver education.

Slow2FIRE

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #101 on: April 13, 2018, 04:35:56 PM »
...Seriously people think they could not possibly live without...air conditioning.  (I won't go into how safety and gov regulations have increased the price of cars, but for a interesting watch, YouTube the offset crash test of a '59 Bel Air to an '09 Malibu and tell me what car you'd rater be in)
...

I tried to make it through a Phoenix AZ summer without A/C.  No can do, not even close.

I kept a nice big bottle of ice & water in the drink holder (another of those options that you may be discussing even though you didn't specifically call it out), had a misting bottle that sprays a very fine atomized mist, nice infrared (and UV) rejection tint all around (including the front windshield) -> made it to about early June before I had to run the A/C.  When it is 115+ degrees Fahrenheit outside and the interior of your car gets to 140 degrees Fahrenheit, going without A/C wasn't something I could do.  I can't imagine my driving was improved by attempting this no A/C experiment (especially when I tried misting myself about every 10-15 seconds to keep cool).

JLee

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #102 on: April 14, 2018, 09:15:47 AM »
"Public Transit is quite often at least as safe as other options, but often fails on the other 5 measures."


Crime is what I'm comparing in safety.

No pickpockets in my car.
No armed robbers in my car.
No one publicly indecent in my car.
No drug addicts or alcoholics in my car.
No rapists in my car.
No child molesters in my car.
No unpredictable insane people in my car.

All of the above commonly found on public transit.
you forgot bedbugs and lice on public transit. Google it and be afraid.

The neighbor's kid I drop off at school might have those...

Seriously, have you ridden public transit recently?  Not much of that in LA/OC, I guess.  I took public buses all through high school in an urban part of the Bay Area almost 50 years ago.  Would not even consider it today.  The human urine smell on BART, the "upper" end of public transit,  is overwhelming.  No thanks!
I haven't used public transit in years (don't commute) but due to the homeless probelms in OC/LA most buses and bus stops are so massively trashed due to transients, many with mental health, drug or alcohol problems, I would be wary also. Biking for the win! Although it would be nice if they brought back small 4 cylinder station wagons like the Ford Focus or Jetta. I think a lot of people get SUVs because there really isn't much choice between a tiny hatchback or an SUV for those that need a larger cargo area.

I have ridden public transport every work day for the better part of 25 years.

Never been assaulted, robbed or flashed but I'll admit I now have a rather robust immune system after picking up every imaginable cold and flu virus under the sun in that time.
Well you're from Oz so maybe all the things there that kill all the other things there killed the bed bugs and lice - which of course are probably full of deadly toxic venom there. I have ridden public transit in other countries before (and in the US but not for awhile) and its all nice and clean and safe in comparison.

I've ridden public transport in LA and found it clean and convenient, although that was around ten years ago. The concierge at my hotel was shocked I wanted public transport to the museum and tried to get me to order a car because she had no idea how the transit system in LA works. I gave her a day and she found out, with many warnings how inefficient it is, unsafe etc. I took the bus from marina del ray and changed to another bus for the rest of the trip to The Getty Villa. I had left ample time as I was told it was unreliable but it ran exactly to time table. I also took the bus on another visit to the Getty Center. The NYC subway was a bit grotty and old but seemed to work fine and I found the BART perfectly good. Of course American public transport isn't as nice or as efficient as other developed or even developing nations but it's not the nightmare many people seem to think it is.

With regards to the topic of safety, I call SUVs "baby killers" because of the high rate of parents accidentally running over their own children due to the poor visibility of SUVs. The current rate is 50 children per week in the US with 70% of that number accounted to SUVs.  That number will only rise as they increase market share.

https://www.kidsandcars.org/how-kids-get-hurt/backovers/

Also should be noted that while SUVs might be marginally safer for those in the car they increase fatalities in two car collisions. Ie, you're much more likely to kill others on the road. I doubt many will care much for this argument, I have brought it up with those who talk about the "safety" of SUVs and their responses indicate the only safety they care about is their own. Also SUVs have higher fatalities rates than cars for single car crashes.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1847494/

They're basically responsible for the increased road death toll after many years of decreases due to safety and driver education.

Vehicle size doesn't mean much - if I put something behind your bumper in an economy car, you're not going to see it any better than you are in an SUV.  Incidentally, the source you provided said over 70% of the kids ran over by vehicles are struck with larger vehicles, like SUVs, trucks, and vans. The much-heralded minivan fits into this category too, so perhaps consider how you are selectively applying facts to fit your agenda.

Your single-vehicle crash statistics are talking about SUVs from 1988 to 2004, which is utterly irrelevant when applied to today's crossover market.

Regardless, backup cameras are mandatory on new cars anyway. https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/new-backup-camera-rule-cameras-will-be-mandatory-2-223739

If you visit NYC for two days and do nothing but take three stops back and forth in Midtown, then sure the subway is fine. If you do more than that? Not so much.
https://ny.curbed.com/2018/3/20/17141380/mta-subway-performance-on-time-delays
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/06/nyregion/subway-late-early-new-york.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/26/opinion/new-york-subway-mta.html
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 09:25:11 AM by JLee »

NoStacheOhio

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #103 on: April 14, 2018, 11:37:02 AM »
Vehicle size doesn't mean much - if I put something behind your bumper in an economy car, you're not going to see it any better than you are in an SUV.  Incidentally, the source you provided said over 70% of the kids ran over by vehicles are struck with larger vehicles, like SUVs, trucks, and vans. The much-heralded minivan fits into this category too, so perhaps consider how you are selectively applying facts to fit your agenda.

Your single-vehicle crash statistics are talking about SUVs from 1988 to 2004, which is utterly irrelevant when applied to today's crossover market.

Regardless, backup cameras are mandatory on new cars anyway. https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/new-backup-camera-rule-cameras-will-be-mandatory-2-223739

If you visit NYC for two days and do nothing but take three stops back and forth in Midtown, then sure the subway is fine. If you do more than that? Not so much.
https://ny.curbed.com/2018/3/20/17141380/mta-subway-performance-on-time-delays
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/06/nyregion/subway-late-early-new-york.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/26/opinion/new-york-subway-mta.html

Could also be self-selection bias; more families have larger vehicles than smaller ones.

NorthernBlitz

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #104 on: April 16, 2018, 09:23:24 AM »
With the current administration, I'd not be surprised to see CAFE replaced by requirements to include a coal burning car in the lineup.  You know.....cleeeeeeeen coal.  Really cleeeeeeeeen coal.



If the stats are similar to the 2016 stats above, aren't 1/3 of EVs already coal powered cars?

From the chart above, I think we can think of EVs as:
- 1/3 as coal cars,
- 1/3 as natural gas cars,
- 1/3 hybrid nuclear / renewable energy vehicle.

RFAAOATB

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #105 on: April 16, 2018, 03:16:50 PM »
A couple of things I wanted to bring up that I don't have the math to back up:

First:  How many people can afford a more expensive and profitable bottom tier SUV if they were looking at an inexpensive small car?

Would the price increase to a more profitable, less efficient style lead to a lower total number or automobiles bought such that the total fuel consumption is lower than it would be if there were more affordable options that happened to be more efficient?  Maybe a family having one SUV instead of two small cars or someone who has to stretch too far to get a small car, and decides against a vehicle at the SUB starting price.

Second: To encourage the use of public transportation be it buses or subways when they are associated with the dirty, slow, last resort options of the lower classes.  Would it make sense to have premium buses and designate one or two cars on the train as premium cars that cost more, are more luxurious, and attract a more affluent crowd?  They have to be in aggregate more efficient than personal cars, but cool enough to attract the right people.  They also have to be expensive enough to discourage the lower classes from using them but not so expensive they aren't used enough to be profitable. 

desertadapted

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #106 on: April 16, 2018, 04:04:36 PM »
Quote
If the stats are similar to the 2016 stats above, aren't 1/3 of EVs already coal powered cars?

From the chart above, I think we can think of EVs as:
- 1/3 as coal cars,
- 1/3 as natural gas cars,
- 1/3 hybrid nuclear / renewable energy vehicle.

Although 3-4 years out of date, this provides somewhat more reliable state-level power mix information.  While it can reasonably be further refined by utility company, time of day, etc., I'm not aware of any easily available information that gets more granular than the state level.  It seems to me that where you live is a better predictor of how EV's are powered than a a more arbitrary 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 split.

https://www.npr.org/2015/09/10/319535020/coal-gas-nuclear-hydro-how-your-state-generates-power

Gone Fishing

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #107 on: April 16, 2018, 07:49:16 PM »
Quote
If the stats are similar to the 2016 stats above, aren't 1/3 of EVs already coal powered cars?

From the chart above, I think we can think of EVs as:
- 1/3 as coal cars,
- 1/3 as natural gas cars,
- 1/3 hybrid nuclear / renewable energy vehicle.

Although 3-4 years out of date, this provides somewhat more reliable state-level power mix information.  While it can reasonably be further refined by utility company, time of day, etc., I'm not aware of any easily available information that gets more granular than the state level.  It seems to me that where you live is a better predictor of how EV's are powered than a a more arbitrary 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 split.

https://www.npr.org/2015/09/10/319535020/coal-gas-nuclear-hydro-how-your-state-generates-power

Interesting data, thanks for the link!

Radagast

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #108 on: April 16, 2018, 08:26:51 PM »
This is why instead of counter-productive CAFE regulations that do nothing but encourage car makers to play games with car classifications (that SUV is actually a truck, har har!), we need to directly tax vehicles through a formula based on weight, emissions, MPG, CO2 emissions and miles driven.

I mostly agree, except that you could just tax the hell out of the fuel (at least until there are too many electrics).
Wear-and-tear to roads is almost entirely a function a weight and traffic volume. Roadway damage resulting from axle weight increases exponentially, while damage from traffic volume increases linearly. 100 million bicycle trips scarcely equal one trip in a truck in terms of pavement damage. I like tax = miles * (weight + emissions) as a basic framework to recapture the lost costs of vehicle ownership.

libertarian4321

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #109 on: April 17, 2018, 04:54:36 AM »
Cars are becoming more like the family room than a mode of transportation because people spend much more of their time in them than in the past.  Driving to work, school, stores, and recreation takes up a lot of waking hours these days.  Traffic everywhere you go and hours spent stuck in it.  Entertainment systems to keep the kids quiet and occupied and the phones for multitasking while inching your way onto the freeway.  Gotta be bigger and taller than the next guy because of the perceived safety advantage.  Cars equal freedom and now comfort and safety.

It's going to be tough to move back to limited car use and public transit.  Nobody wants that when safe, clean, and comfortable private transportation to anywhere is available at any time.
All these reasons is why I support passing a law that would automatically raise the gasoline tax by 20 cents every year for the next 10 years.

The people in the cars outnumber you.  People vote for all kinds of tax increases for public transit, in hopes the other guy takes it when it's built so the roads will be clearer.  Unless public transit is safe, clean, reliable, comfortable, and convenient, people that are able to avoid using it will choose to do so.

Yup.

"Convenient" being the key.

When I need/want to go somewhere, I want to go now.  I don't want to find a bus schedule, trudge to the bus stop, sit around and wait for the bus, then "enjoy" the ride with society's finest.

That's why public transit in most cities (usually buses) is largely the realm of the desperate who have no alternative.

libertarian4321

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #110 on: April 17, 2018, 05:38:04 AM »
We've seen that a certain portion of the voters won't tolerate gov't nudges very well. Especially if the president happens to be from a minority group or I suspect, female.

Consider for a moment the possibility that free adult citizens may just not like being told what to do by obnoxious, know-it-all do gooders who think they have the right to use government to bludgeon people into compliance with their world view?  A world view that most Americans, including many Democrats, don't agree with.

Could it be that they are fighting more against overbearing government than "the black guy" or "the woman?"

I don't recall Bill Clinton, who's as white as you can be, passing a whole lot of that sort of legislation, even with control of both houses of Congress.  Because he knew the American people wouldn't put up with it.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #111 on: April 17, 2018, 05:42:33 AM »
We've seen that a certain portion of the voters won't tolerate gov't nudges very well. Especially if the president happens to be from a minority group or I suspect, female.

Consider for a moment the possibility that free adult citizens may just not like being told what to do by obnoxious, know-it-all do gooders who think they have the right to use government to bludgeon people into compliance with their world view?  A world view that most Americans, including many Democrats, don't agree with.

Could it be that they are fighting more against overbearing government than "the black guy" or "the woman?"

I don't recall Bill Clinton, who's as white as you can be, passing a whole lot of that sort of legislation, even with control of both houses of Congress.  Because he knew the American people wouldn't put up with it.

Do you know what "nudge" means?

GuitarStv

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #112 on: April 17, 2018, 08:05:23 AM »
We've seen that a certain portion of the voters won't tolerate gov't nudges very well. Especially if the president happens to be from a minority group or I suspect, female.

Consider for a moment the possibility that free adult citizens may just not like being told what to do by obnoxious, know-it-all do gooders who think they have the right to use government to bludgeon people into compliance with their world view?  A world view that most Americans, including many Democrats, don't agree with.

Could it be that they are fighting more against overbearing government than "the black guy" or "the woman?"

I don't recall Bill Clinton, who's as white as you can be, passing a whole lot of that sort of legislation, even with control of both houses of Congress.  Because he knew the American people wouldn't put up with it.

I'm not sure I understand your complaint.  You often self-identify as a Libertarian.

One of the core tenants of Libertarian philosophy is that if you leave other people alone, you should be left alone to do what you want.  If you cause harm to people through force however, that's unacceptable and a reasonable time for the government to step in.  That's basically what the concept of 'natural rights' is all about.  So the government is allowed to create a police force to stop murders, slavery, and theft for example, because these violate natural rights.  When you drive an inefficient vehicle, you are creating and contributing to the pollution that directly causes harm to others . . . about 58,000 deaths a year in the US alone (https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/10/22/mit-study-vehicle-emissions-cause-58000-premature-deaths-yearly-in-u-s/).  That violates the natural rights of these people to breathe clean air and stay alive.

Given that, Libertarians should be wholeheartedly on-board with government pollution controls on vehicles.  Free adult citizens might not like being told they can't keep slaves, or murder other people by obnoxious know-it-all do gooders . . . but they're in the wrong from a libertarian perspective as their actions violate natural rights of others.  So too with driving a vehicle that spews out significant pollution.

JLee

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #113 on: April 17, 2018, 08:45:48 AM »
We've seen that a certain portion of the voters won't tolerate gov't nudges very well. Especially if the president happens to be from a minority group or I suspect, female.

Consider for a moment the possibility that free adult citizens may just not like being told what to do by obnoxious, know-it-all do gooders who think they have the right to use government to bludgeon people into compliance with their world view?  A world view that most Americans, including many Democrats, don't agree with.

Could it be that they are fighting more against overbearing government than "the black guy" or "the woman?"

I don't recall Bill Clinton, who's as white as you can be, passing a whole lot of that sort of legislation, even with control of both houses of Congress.  Because he knew the American people wouldn't put up with it.

I'm not sure I understand your complaint.  You often self-identify as a Libertarian.

One of the core tenants of Libertarian philosophy is that if you leave other people alone, you should be left alone to do what you want.  If you cause harm to people through force however, that's unacceptable and a reasonable time for the government to step in.  That's basically what the concept of 'natural rights' is all about.  So the government is allowed to create a police force to stop murders, slavery, and theft for example, because these violate natural rights.  When you drive an inefficient vehicle, you are creating and contributing to the pollution that directly causes harm to others . . . about 58,000 deaths a year in the US alone (https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/10/22/mit-study-vehicle-emissions-cause-58000-premature-deaths-yearly-in-u-s/).  That violates the natural rights of these people to breathe clean air and stay alive.

Given that, Libertarians should be wholeheartedly on-board with government pollution controls on vehicles.  Free adult citizens might not like being told they can't keep slaves, or murder other people by obnoxious know-it-all do gooders . . . but they're in the wrong from a libertarian perspective as their actions violate natural rights of others.  So too with driving a vehicle that spews out significant pollution.

When you drive an efficient vehicle, sometimes it's worse.  A Fiat 500 produces over twice the NOx and over triple the hydrocarbons as a Ford SVT Raptor does.

For some more perspective, a half hour working in your yard with a 2 stroke leafblower pollutes as much as driving a Raptor from Texas to Anchorage, AK (nearly 4000 miles).

Source

tldr; you are conflating emissions controls with efficiency.

robartsd

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #114 on: April 17, 2018, 09:23:49 AM »
I'm not sure I understand your complaint.  You often self-identify as a Libertarian.
I think he's just got tired of the race card being played every time he objected to policies put forth by the Obama administration and was responding to Just Joe playing the card again. As a libertarian he opposes government "nudges" wherever they come from.

One of the core tenants of Libertarian philosophy is that if you leave other people alone, you should be left alone to do what you want.  If you cause harm to people through force however, that's unacceptable and a reasonable time for the government to step in.  That's basically what the concept of 'natural rights' is all about.  So the government is allowed to create a police force to stop murders, slavery, and theft for example, because these violate natural rights.  When you drive an inefficient vehicle, you are creating and contributing to the pollution that directly causes harm to others . . . about 58,000 deaths a year in the US alone (https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/10/22/mit-study-vehicle-emissions-cause-58000-premature-deaths-yearly-in-u-s/).  That violates the natural rights of these people to breathe clean air and stay alive.

Given that, Libertarians should be wholeheartedly on-board with government pollution controls on vehicles.  Free adult citizens might not like being told they can't keep slaves, or murder other people by obnoxious know-it-all do gooders . . . but they're in the wrong from a libertarian perspective as their actions violate natural rights of others.  So too with driving a vehicle that spews out significant pollution.
I identify with Libertarian philosophy of government and think taxation based on externalities like as pollution is a great idea (much better than taxes based on productive economic activity like income an sales). I've been criticized on these forums when suggesting such taxes as an alternative to hard caps.

For pollution I think taxing the fossil fuel is easier and better than taxing the vehicle miles (and could be applied fairly to non-transportation fossil fuel use as well).

For road maintenance I think there should be some combination of:
  • property taxes (perhaps based on frontage length)
  • congestion tolls
  • weight adjusted vehicle miles driven

GuitarStv

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #115 on: April 17, 2018, 10:22:44 AM »
We've seen that a certain portion of the voters won't tolerate gov't nudges very well. Especially if the president happens to be from a minority group or I suspect, female.

Consider for a moment the possibility that free adult citizens may just not like being told what to do by obnoxious, know-it-all do gooders who think they have the right to use government to bludgeon people into compliance with their world view?  A world view that most Americans, including many Democrats, don't agree with.

Could it be that they are fighting more against overbearing government than "the black guy" or "the woman?"

I don't recall Bill Clinton, who's as white as you can be, passing a whole lot of that sort of legislation, even with control of both houses of Congress.  Because he knew the American people wouldn't put up with it.

I'm not sure I understand your complaint.  You often self-identify as a Libertarian.

One of the core tenants of Libertarian philosophy is that if you leave other people alone, you should be left alone to do what you want.  If you cause harm to people through force however, that's unacceptable and a reasonable time for the government to step in.  That's basically what the concept of 'natural rights' is all about.  So the government is allowed to create a police force to stop murders, slavery, and theft for example, because these violate natural rights.  When you drive an inefficient vehicle, you are creating and contributing to the pollution that directly causes harm to others . . . about 58,000 deaths a year in the US alone (https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/10/22/mit-study-vehicle-emissions-cause-58000-premature-deaths-yearly-in-u-s/).  That violates the natural rights of these people to breathe clean air and stay alive.

Given that, Libertarians should be wholeheartedly on-board with government pollution controls on vehicles.  Free adult citizens might not like being told they can't keep slaves, or murder other people by obnoxious know-it-all do gooders . . . but they're in the wrong from a libertarian perspective as their actions violate natural rights of others.  So too with driving a vehicle that spews out significant pollution.

When you drive an efficient vehicle, sometimes it's worse.  A Fiat 500 produces over twice the NOx and over triple the hydrocarbons as a Ford SVT Raptor does.

For some more perspective, a half hour working in your yard with a 2 stroke leafblower pollutes as much as driving a Raptor from Texas to Anchorage, AK (nearly 4000 miles).

Source

tldr; you are conflating emissions controls with efficiency.

Did we really need yet another reason to discourage use of leaf blowers?  :P  It's already annoyingly loud and less efficient than just grabbing a rake.

But yes, you raise a valid point.  I'd be happy to increase taxes upon the worst polluting vehicles, and let people pay as much as they want for gas otherwise.  (Although the price we currently pay at the pump is artificially deflated by ignoring the damage that any burning of fossil fuel does to our health and the environment.)

pecunia

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #116 on: April 17, 2018, 10:29:15 AM »
Well,.....

Seems to me that American car companies did this once before when they dumped the Pinto and the Vega for big cars.  It was kind of obvious that they didn't like building small cars back then either.  The Japanese ate their lunch.  So,.....they'll be all tooled up for the big cars again and history will repeat itself.

In 1980 I was working in Ann Arbor.  One of the guys who worked at Chrysler told me, "People don't want small cars."  I guess I wasn't a person to him.  I think a lot of the people attracted to the car industry like racing and lots of horsepower.  Building econoboxes has never been as much fun. Who killed the electric car a few years back?

To quote the lyrics from an old song, "When will they ever learn?"

dogboyslim

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #117 on: April 17, 2018, 11:53:00 AM »

Did we really need yet another reason to discourage use of leaf blowers?  :P  It's already annoyingly loud and less efficient than just grabbing a rake.

My leaf blower is 1/3 coal powered!  ;)  Also, not nearly as loud as gas.  I use it when I need to blow out the laundry lint residue from the dryer.  Works wonders.  Let's see your rake do that!

Purple Economist

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #118 on: April 19, 2018, 09:11:31 PM »
We've seen that a certain portion of the voters won't tolerate gov't nudges very well. Especially if the president happens to be from a minority group or I suspect, female.

Consider for a moment the possibility that free adult citizens may just not like being told what to do by obnoxious, know-it-all do gooders who think they have the right to use government to bludgeon people into compliance with their world view?  A world view that most Americans, including many Democrats, don't agree with.

Could it be that they are fighting more against overbearing government than "the black guy" or "the woman?"

I don't recall Bill Clinton, who's as white as you can be, passing a whole lot of that sort of legislation, even with control of both houses of Congress.  Because he knew the American people wouldn't put up with it.

I'm not sure I understand your complaint.  You often self-identify as a Libertarian.

One of the core tenants of Libertarian philosophy is that if you leave other people alone, you should be left alone to do what you want.  If you cause harm to people through force however, that's unacceptable and a reasonable time for the government to step in.  That's basically what the concept of 'natural rights' is all about.  So the government is allowed to create a police force to stop murders, slavery, and theft for example, because these violate natural rights.  When you drive an inefficient vehicle, you are creating and contributing to the pollution that directly causes harm to others . . . about 58,000 deaths a year in the US alone (https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/10/22/mit-study-vehicle-emissions-cause-58000-premature-deaths-yearly-in-u-s/).  That violates the natural rights of these people to breathe clean air and stay alive.

Given that, Libertarians should be wholeheartedly on-board with government pollution controls on vehicles.  Free adult citizens might not like being told they can't keep slaves, or murder other people by obnoxious know-it-all do gooders . . . but they're in the wrong from a libertarian perspective as their actions violate natural rights of others.  So too with driving a vehicle that spews out significant pollution.

Your application of the non-aggression principle is indirect, flimsy and not universally agreed up on at best.

Additionally, your proposed cure is worse than the disease.

sol

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #119 on: April 19, 2018, 09:21:59 PM »
It seems to me that where you live is a better predictor of how EV's are powered than a a more arbitrary 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 split.

Even better than where you live is where your electricity actually comes from.  Your utility releases an annual report that can tell you what fraction of your grid electrons are from which sources.  For example, Seattle's:  http://www.seattle.gov/light/FuelMix/

Or you can cheat the system, and put solar panels on your roof to charge your electric car.  My car is definitely not 1/3 coal-powered, no matter how you slice it.

bacchi

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #120 on: April 19, 2018, 09:55:11 PM »

Did we really need yet another reason to discourage use of leaf blowers?  :P  It's already annoyingly loud and less efficient than just grabbing a rake.

My leaf blower is 1/3 coal powered!  ;)  Also, not nearly as loud as gas.  I use it when I need to blow out the laundry lint residue from the dryer.  Works wonders.  Let's see your rake do that!

I....use my hands. ?? Or the (solar-powered) vacuum cleaner.

desertadapted

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #121 on: April 26, 2018, 07:54:04 AM »

neo von retorch

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #122 on: April 26, 2018, 08:02:44 AM »
Just to clarify or restate:

Ford is getting out of the sedan and sub-compact business. (Some people would say "car business" is the selling of automobiles, and Ford is not doing that at all!) They are going with the (current) market trends, and selling more "tall" vehicles, basically a wide variety of SUVs (like Toyota does with their RAV4/Highlander/Sequoia/Land Cruiser/4 Runner/CH-R). They are hoping the small/hybrid SUVs and Focus Active cover enough of the entry level to have good market coverage. And, zero surprises, they will continue to sell trucks ;)

Taco7

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #123 on: April 26, 2018, 08:27:05 AM »
I for one am happy to see this.  One of my many peeves is people not using the horsepower under the hood to get up to freeway speed during on-ramp merges.  Passing or changing lanes is another example. 

I know many hybrid cars have the power, but the older, smaller gas vehicles, simply have to be driven very hard to accomplish this.  When I'm moving up the freeway and some tin can car jumps into my lane to pass another slow moving car, they don't have the power to get it to the speed that everyone else is going, causing dangerous conditions for everyone behind.  Ford, as an example, makes SUVs with tremendous power that allow you to quickly get to speed.

 

NoStacheOhio

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #124 on: April 26, 2018, 08:38:02 AM »
I for one am happy to see this.  One of my many peeves is people not using the horsepower under the hood to get up to freeway speed during on-ramp merges.  Passing or changing lanes is another example. 

I know many hybrid cars have the power, but the older, smaller gas vehicles, simply have to be driven very hard to accomplish this.  When I'm moving up the freeway and some tin can car jumps into my lane to pass another slow moving car, they don't have the power to get it to the speed that everyone else is going, causing dangerous conditions for everyone behind.  Ford, as an example, makes SUVs with tremendous power that allow you to quickly get to speed.

Eh?

This makes zero sense. The vast majority of normal cars (like the ones Ford is eliminating) make sufficient power to do what you're saying without thrashing them. If you want to go back to the mid-90s and make that argument, then sure, some cars were underpowered, but 6 seconds was also considered a fast 0-60 time.

The heavier trucks need to be thrashed to match the smaller cars. In the last year, I've driven a rental Tahoe (V8), Suburban (V8), Expedition (V6T), Pathfinder (V8) and Murano (V6). They were all more sluggish than my Civic. I've driven Focuses in the recent past, and they weren't underpowered.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 01:31:49 PM by NoStacheOhio »

GuitarStv

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #125 on: April 26, 2018, 08:41:14 AM »
I for one am happy to see this.  One of my many peeves is people not using the horsepower under the hood to get up to freeway speed during on-ramp merges.  Passing or changing lanes is another example. 

I know many hybrid cars have the power, but the older, smaller gas vehicles, simply have to be driven very hard to accomplish this.  When I'm moving up the freeway and some tin can car jumps into my lane to pass another slow moving car, they don't have the power to get it to the speed that everyone else is going, causing dangerous conditions for everyone behind.  Ford, as an example, makes SUVs with tremendous power that allow you to quickly get to speed.

Eh?

This makes zero sense. The vast majority of normal cars (like the ones Ford is eliminating) make sufficient power to do what you're saying without thrashing them. If you want to go back to the mid-90s and make that argument, then sure, some cars were underpowered, but 6 seconds was also considered a fast 0-60 time.

The heavier trucks need to be thrashed to do match the smaller cars. In the last year, I've driven a rental Tahoe (V8), Suburban (V8), Expedition (V6T), Pathfinder (V8) and Murano (V6). They were all more sluggish than my Civic. I've driven Focuses in the recent past, and they weren't underpowered.

+1

I drove a Ford Focus for years and never had any problem getting the vehicle quickly up to speed to pass slow moving traffic.  I currently drive a Corolla and find the same to be true.

PC2K

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #126 on: April 26, 2018, 09:06:24 AM »
I for one am happy to see this.  One of my many peeves is people not using the horsepower under the hood to get up to freeway speed during on-ramp merges.  Passing or changing lanes is another example. 

I know many hybrid cars have the power, but the older, smaller gas vehicles, simply have to be driven very hard to accomplish this.  When I'm moving up the freeway and some tin can car jumps into my lane to pass another slow moving car, they don't have the power to get it to the speed that everyone else is going, causing dangerous conditions for everyone behind.  Ford, as an example, makes SUVs with tremendous power that allow you to quickly get to speed.

Eh?

This makes zero sense. The vast majority of normal cars (like the ones Ford is eliminating) make sufficient power to do what you're saying without thrashing them. If you want to go back to the mid-90s and make that argument, then sure, some cars were underpowered, but 6 seconds was also considered a fast 0-60 time.

The heavier trucks need to be thrashed to do match the smaller cars. In the last year, I've driven a rental Tahoe (V8), Suburban (V8), Expedition (V6T), Pathfinder (V8) and Murano (V6). They were all more sluggish than my Civic. I've driven Focuses in the recent past, and they weren't underpowered.

+1

I drove a Ford Focus for years and never had any problem getting the vehicle quickly up to speed to pass slow moving traffic.  I currently drive a Corolla and find the same to be true.

European here; i have a small hatchback with a 1.4, 101BHP engine in it, no issues merging on the autobahn. Also 40+mpg is pretty normal.

Optimiser

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #127 on: April 26, 2018, 09:11:44 AM »
I for one am happy to see this.  One of my many peeves is people not using the horsepower under the hood to get up to freeway speed during on-ramp merges.  Passing or changing lanes is another example. 

I know many hybrid cars have the power, but the older, smaller gas vehicles, simply have to be driven very hard to accomplish this.  When I'm moving up the freeway and some tin can car jumps into my lane to pass another slow moving car, they don't have the power to get it to the speed that everyone else is going, causing dangerous conditions for everyone behind.  Ford, as an example, makes SUVs with tremendous power that allow you to quickly get to speed.

Eh?

This makes zero sense. The vast majority of normal cars (like the ones Ford is eliminating) make sufficient power to do what you're saying without thrashing them. If you want to go back to the mid-90s and make that argument, then sure, some cars were underpowered, but 6 seconds was also considered a fast 0-60 time.

The heavier trucks need to be thrashed to do match the smaller cars. In the last year, I've driven a rental Tahoe (V8), Suburban (V8), Expedition (V6T), Pathfinder (V8) and Murano (V6). They were all more sluggish than my Civic. I've driven Focuses in the recent past, and they weren't underpowered.

+1

I drove a Ford Focus for years and never had any problem getting the vehicle quickly up to speed to pass slow moving traffic.  I currently drive a Corolla and find the same to be true.

European here; i have a small hatchback with a 1.4, 101BHP engine in it, no issues merging on the autobahn. Also 40+mpg is pretty normal.

I've drive a 28 year old 1.6 liter car and have no problem wringing out my engine to appropriately merge on the freeway.

I will not be even a little bit sad if we have another gas price hike and Ford goes out of business.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 09:18:22 AM by Optimiser »

NoStacheOhio

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #128 on: April 26, 2018, 09:17:08 AM »
I will not be even a little bit sad if we have another gas price hike and Ford goes out of business.

This is just for the US. Since they're global platforms, bringing them back in response to changes in demand won't be prohibitively expensive.

neo von retorch

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #129 on: April 26, 2018, 09:19:41 AM »
I will not be even a little bit sad if we have another gas price hike and Ford goes out of business.

You made no claims to be an expert in the automotive business, so I'll pull my punches. But I think the same people that think Telsa stock valuation is "spot on" just might have the same kind of narrow view of business to think Ford is even remotely more in danger of going out of business than their competitors. Remember - they've become an international business. That means they build and sell cars overseas, and the have a huge variety of vehicles that they'll continue to develop across the globe. If the market really does explode for small, efficient cars here in the States, they can pull in their European models.

ol1970

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #130 on: April 26, 2018, 09:22:05 AM »
In other news Ford announced that is getting rid of most of its cars by 2022.  90% of the vehicles it produces will be SUV's Trucks and commercial vehicles.

I doubt they are doing this because they want to jam trucks and SUV's down our throats.  The free market economy has spoken.  Keep in mind Ford is also investing $11B and committed to have 40 electrified vehicles on the road by 2022 as well...so it is not all doom and gloom, unless you really like sedans I suppose.

partdopy

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #131 on: April 26, 2018, 09:25:31 AM »
This is the only thing mentioned:

Quote
With the Trump administration planning to roll back fuel-economy standards for auto makers’ fleets, the shift to SUVs and trucks is only likely to continue.

Thanks.

Even my relatively pro environment friends seem to favor light SUVs over cars - Subarus or crossovers. So basically without regulations to save us from ourselves we’re screwed.

I was looking at NASA’s climate website the other day and was shocked by the steady increase in atmospheric CO2- I know it’s happening, obviously, but the change in just my lifetime is disheartening.https://climate.nasa.gov

I don't think it should really be the government's job to save us from ourselves though...  The good/bad news here is that the price of used, quality smaller cars is going to go up.  Good news for owners, bad news for buyers.

MilesTeg

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #132 on: April 26, 2018, 12:49:56 PM »
I for one am happy to see this.  One of my many peeves is people not using the horsepower under the hood to get up to freeway speed during on-ramp merges.  Passing or changing lanes is another example. 

I know many hybrid cars have the power, but the older, smaller gas vehicles, simply have to be driven very hard to accomplish this.  When I'm moving up the freeway and some tin can car jumps into my lane to pass another slow moving car, they don't have the power to get it to the speed that everyone else is going, causing dangerous conditions for everyone behind.  Ford, as an example, makes SUVs with tremendous power that allow you to quickly get to speed.

Eh?

This makes zero sense. The vast majority of normal cars (like the ones Ford is eliminating) make sufficient power to do what you're saying without thrashing them. If you want to go back to the mid-90s and make that argument, then sure, some cars were underpowered, but 6 seconds was also considered a fast 0-60 time.

The heavier trucks need to be thrashed to do match the smaller cars. In the last year, I've driven a rental Tahoe (V8), Suburban (V8), Expedition (V6T), Pathfinder (V8) and Murano (V6). They were all more sluggish than my Civic. I've driven Focuses in the recent past, and they weren't underpowered.

This generally is not down to any post 2000 vehicle, This is generally down to:

* Generally bad drivers who don't understand how unsafe velocity differentials are
* Assholes that think the road belongs to them
* Assholes who think their 'hypermiling' 90 second 0-60 is saving them significant money and saving the planet.

GuitarStv

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #133 on: April 26, 2018, 12:54:42 PM »
I have a strange suspicion that the complaint may well be related to:
* Generally bad drivers who don't understand how unsafe velocity differentials are
* Assholes that think the road belongs to them
* Assholes driving well above the speed limit, who fail to safely moderate speed for traffic conditions

:P

MilesTeg

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #134 on: April 26, 2018, 01:26:50 PM »
I have a strange suspicion that the complaint may well be related to:
* Generally bad drivers who don't understand how unsafe velocity differentials are
* Assholes that think the road belongs to them
* Assholes driving well above the speed limit, who fail to safely moderate speed for traffic conditions

:P

At least in my area, very rarely is the right lane moving even at the limit of the roadway. Lots of tractor-trailers and other slow vehicles (the left lanes on the other hand, I agree). Yet often I see Prius and other EV/econocar owners (frequently with various rear bumper literature proclaiming their desire to save the planet) not speed matching before attempting to merge. Even modern vehicles that are quite capable of being operated safely in the situation.

Don't take that as a slight toward frugal car ownership or environmentalism, but saving a few drops of gas on a freeway entrance isn't going to solve any financial or environmental problem and only increases the risks to yourself and other drivers. Hell, forcing several cars to have to brake and then re-accelerate because you don't match speed blows away any savings your one vehicle might realize. It's entirely idiotic.

But, even in the event people in the lane you are trying to merge into ARE speeding, it's still dangerous, illegal and counter productive to environmental goals to not match speed before doing so.

Radagast

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #135 on: April 26, 2018, 10:39:33 PM »
I for one am happy to see this.  One of my many peeves is people not using the horsepower under the hood to get up to freeway speed during on-ramp merges.  Passing or changing lanes is another example. 

I know many hybrid cars have the power, but the older, smaller gas vehicles, simply have to be driven very hard to accomplish this.  When I'm moving up the freeway and some tin can car jumps into my lane to pass another slow moving car, they don't have the power to get it to the speed that everyone else is going, causing dangerous conditions for everyone behind.  Ford, as an example, makes SUVs with tremendous power that allow you to quickly get to speed.
When I got my first job I got the intern truck, a '92 F350 that could only break 74mph going downhill and did 0-60 in about 30 seconds (also the AC didn't work, so they sent it to Las Vegas just after I left). My dad has an '87 Blazer with an eight cylinder direct injection engine that technically gets up to 85 mph (or at least the speedometer does) but anything over 65 is scary as hell, plus it corners like a tall glass bottle. Fortunately, Honda makes Civics that have tremendous power that allow you to corner and get up to speed quickly (and have working AC).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 10:58:21 PM by Radagast »

dragoncar

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #136 on: April 27, 2018, 06:38:01 AM »

Did we really need yet another reason to discourage use of leaf blowers?  :P  It's already annoyingly loud and less efficient than just grabbing a rake.

My leaf blower is 1/3 coal powered!  ;)  Also, not nearly as loud as gas.  I use it when I need to blow out the laundry lint residue from the dryer.  Works wonders.  Let's see your rake do that!

My leaf blower is great at getting a bonfire really going.  How many emissions is that?

AZDude

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #137 on: April 27, 2018, 10:06:10 AM »
We've seen that a certain portion of the voters won't tolerate gov't nudges very well. Especially if the president happens to be from a minority group or I suspect, female.

Consider for a moment the possibility that free adult citizens may just not like being told what to do by obnoxious, know-it-all do gooders who think they have the right to use government to bludgeon people into compliance with their world view?  A world view that most Americans, including many Democrats, don't agree with.

Could it be that they are fighting more against overbearing government than "the black guy" or "the woman?"

I don't recall Bill Clinton, who's as white as you can be, passing a whole lot of that sort of legislation, even with control of both houses of Congress.  Because he knew the American people wouldn't put up with it.

Well, this is just plain wrong. Bill Clinton passed DOMA, for one, which is about as anti-libertarian as you can get.

Just Joe

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #138 on: April 30, 2018, 08:23:38 AM »
We've seen that a certain portion of the voters won't tolerate gov't nudges very well. Especially if the president happens to be from a minority group or I suspect, female.

Consider for a moment the possibility that free adult citizens may just not like being told what to do by obnoxious, know-it-all do gooders who think they have the right to use government to bludgeon people into compliance with their world view?  A world view that most Americans, including many Democrats, don't agree with.

Could it be that they are fighting more against overbearing government than "the black guy" or "the woman?"

I don't recall Bill Clinton, who's as white as you can be, passing a whole lot of that sort of legislation, even with control of both houses of Congress.  Because he knew the American people wouldn't put up with it.

Well, this is just plain wrong. Bill Clinton passed DOMA, for one, which is about as anti-libertarian as you can get.

Get out more. Makes no difference to me what a persons gender or race is but I've met alot of people for whom this is an issue. Sometimes they are out with it, sometimes they are subtle but clear in their opinions.

sol

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #139 on: April 30, 2018, 08:31:33 AM »
Get out more. Makes no difference to me what a persons gender or race is but I've met alot of people for whom this is an issue. Sometimes they are out with it, sometimes they are subtle but clear in their opinions.

Are you suggesting that gay marriage is a hot button issue that a majority of Americans strongly oppose?  Because the polls seem to contradict that position. 

Even in deep red states Americans seem to have embraced equality for gay people much more readily than embraced equality for black people.  Maybe it's because they have gay people in their own families?  There are still some hold outs on both causes, of course, but we typically call those people descriptive names, like "Bubba".

accolay

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #140 on: May 01, 2018, 01:06:55 AM »
My leaf blower is great at getting a bonfire really going.  How many emissions is that?

Zero. Bonfires are carbon Nuetral, dude!

The more I read about climate change, the more certain I am that the planet is screwed. Not so much for us, but everyone younger than our kids. Unless there is some miraculous conservation iniative started by rich countries along with new innovative tech by 2030 or at least until the aliens come and save us we're fucked. Despite my tree hugging tendancies and "it matters for that one starfish" mentality, I just don't think emissions matter anymore.

sol

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #141 on: May 01, 2018, 01:19:16 AM »
we're fucked.

The good news: climate change isn't as bad as you think!  We could abandon half of the globe as unlivable hellscape, and still not use the majority of the other half.  We have LOTS of unused land in places that are currently too cold, so as soon as we accept that Florida is toast we can start building a new Manhattan in Alaska.

The bad news: we're probably all getting wiped out by weaponized influenza or nuclear holocaust loooong before we finish building New Manhattan in Alaska.  We're so focused on the "known unknowns" these days that I think we're uniquely vulnerable to global scale ecological collapse from a variety of causes that aren't even on most people's radar screens these days.  Yellowstone could erupt.  A gamma ray burst could sterilize one hemisphere.  Thawing permafrost could unleash The Thing.  Mass extinction is a regular part of Earth's history and climate change is just one of a thousand ways to do it.

accolay

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #142 on: May 01, 2018, 06:36:34 AM »
The bad news: we're probably all getting wiped out by weaponized influenza or nuclear holocaust loooong before we finish building New Manhattan in Alaska.   

Where I live now it will probably be malaria.

Mass exinction is a regular part of Earth's history and climate change is just one of a thousand ways to do it.

I think deGrasse Tyson said something similar. Unsure if it is comforting.

NorthernBlitz

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #143 on: May 01, 2018, 11:36:19 AM »
we're fucked.

The good news: climate change isn't as bad as you think!  We could abandon half of the globe as unlivable hellscape, and still not use the majority of the other half.  We have LOTS of unused land in places that are currently too cold, so as soon as we accept that Florida is toast we can start building a new Manhattan in Alaska.

The bad news: we're probably all getting wiped out by weaponized influenza or nuclear holocaust loooong before we finish building New Manhattan in Alaska.  We're so focused on the "known unknowns" these days that I think we're uniquely vulnerable to global scale ecological collapse from a variety of causes that aren't even on most people's radar screens these days.  Yellowstone could erupt.  A gamma ray burst could sterilize one hemisphere.  Thawing permafrost could unleash The Thing.  Mass extinction is a regular part of Earth's history and climate change is just one of a thousand ways to do it.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/07/how-big-is-your-circle-of-control/

accolay

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #144 on: May 01, 2018, 07:51:24 PM »
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/07/how-big-is-your-circle-of-control/

Exactly. But it doesn't mean we're not fucked. However, I'll continue to bicycle commute and vote.

NorthernBlitz

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #145 on: May 02, 2018, 09:08:10 AM »
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/07/how-big-is-your-circle-of-control/

Exactly. But it doesn't mean we're not fucked. However, I'll continue to bicycle commute and vote.

I think that's a good thing. Control what you can control and do what you think is best.

But, there's no point in worrying about how we're all going to die from something that we don't even know we're supposed to be worrying about yet.

For what it's worth. I firmly believe that we're not fucked. Human ingenuity is amazing and I trust in the traits that have brought us to the pinnacle of life (on this planet at least).

Hargrove

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #146 on: May 02, 2018, 10:11:52 PM »
Aw c'mon, you have to have a 3 ton SUX 6000 to shuttle your little Jeffrey Dahmer Einstein to school and soccer practice, because--safety! I mean, what if it rains????

Does... does it come with cruise control?

accolay

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Re: we'll soon be swimming in a sea of clown cars
« Reply #147 on: May 03, 2018, 12:07:08 AM »
But, there's no point in worrying about how we're all going to die from something that we don't even know we're supposed to be worrying about yet.

I think there's a whole Mustache post on optimism if I'm not mistaken. Oh, here it is: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/10/03/the-practical-benefits-of-outrageous-optimism/

I'm not really worried about dying from climate change  as it will start to get bad in about 40 years and I'll be on my way out. I'm more worried about people who are being born right after now. I know t's hard for us with short lifespans to contemplate a change over decades. For your daily dose of doom and gloom, I think people are putting too much faith into future tech that will save us all. What we have to do, right now, is conserve emissions and cut back on consumerism, which I don't think most people who read MMM will have difficulty with. I believe more in human greed and the ability to lie to ourselves than our ingenuity. We'll probably die from climate change induced war than malaria. Because we wont collectively do it now voluntarily for the future, authoritarian governments will take over to limit emissions abruptly. Go Scott Pruit.

So enjoy life now :)