Author Topic: Voting and the Circle of Influence  (Read 2482 times)

Glenstache

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Voting and the Circle of Influence
« on: November 06, 2018, 02:07:42 PM »
Voting is one of the few times our circle of influence scales up to beyond our day to day. Regardless of your political affiliation, please go and vote. Just because millions of people vote, does not mean that your vote does not matter. In fact, it matters quite a bit in your local elections. It matters quite a bit in close elections, especially in swing states. It matters in civic pride. It matters in communicating what you want. It matters.

So, if you have not yet done so, go out and vote now. If you've already voted, great! Such a mustachian investment! Low effort and (hopefully) big returns!

Trifele

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2018, 03:45:59 PM »
Thanks for this @Glenstache!

haflander

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2018, 04:04:19 PM »
I sense I'm going to be in the minority in this one, but so be it. I'm not voting in this round. I'm tired of both parties and extremism on both sides. I'm not going to vote for the lesser of two evils...I hate that idea. I'm not going to vote for someone I don't like either as a person or if I disagree with most of their platform. Those two qualifications alone rule out anywhere from 95-100% of politicians.

For example, the big race around here is Beto O'Rourke vs Ted Cruz for Senate. I don't like Cruz, he's a slimy robot/reptilian (haven't decided which yet). I liked Beto (finally, a real human!) until I watched him in a debate...he's pretty much just another Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie Sanders follower. He voted against Kate's Law, which states that immigrants who are violent criminals and repeatedly trespass into our country and commit violent crime should be put in jail, not just deported...to cross into our borders and commit another violent crime. I can't imagine why any politician on either side would vote against that. I'd like him to look in the eyes of a mother who's daughter was killed by a repeat offender violent immigrant and explain to her why he voted against that law. Oh, and I hate the idea of The Wall, too.

For context, I consider myself a right-leaning moderate. I've voted for the loser of the Presidential race every time, including when I was 18 and only old enough by a month. I believe I'm much more informed about politics than the average person voting...but I'm just not gonna vote for someone I don't support.

/rant

Glenstache

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2018, 04:21:10 PM »
I sense I'm going to be in the minority in this one, but so be it. I'm not voting in this round. I'm tired of both parties and extremism on both sides. I'm not going to vote for the lesser of two evils...I hate that idea. I'm not going to vote for someone I don't like either as a person or if I disagree with most of their platform. Those two qualifications alone rule out anywhere from 95-100% of politicians.

For example, the big race around here is Beto O'Rourke vs Ted Cruz for Senate. I don't like Cruz, he's a slimy robot/reptilian (haven't decided which yet). I liked Beto (finally, a real human!) until I watched him in a debate...he's pretty much just another Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie Sanders follower. He voted against Kate's Law, which states that immigrants who are violent criminals and repeatedly trespass into our country and commit violent crime should be put in jail, not just deported...to cross into our borders and commit another violent crime. I can't imagine why any politician on either side would vote against that. I'd like him to look in the eyes of a mother who's daughter was killed by a repeat offender violent immigrant and explain to her why he voted against that law. Oh, and I hate the idea of The Wall, too.

For context, I consider myself a right-leaning moderate. I've voted for the loser of the Presidential race every time, including when I was 18 and only old enough by a month. I believe I'm much more informed about politics than the average person voting...but I'm just not gonna vote for someone I don't support.

/rant

I'm sorry that politics have left you so cynical, though I can certainly understand. Certainly there are a lot of local races that you can vote on and leave the marks between Cruz and Beto blank. Local elections are hugely influential. In my work I spend a lot of time working with the local level elected officials (not in a political sense at all), and most of them are pretty earnest about what they are doing. These positions make a big difference in the local communities and are worth showing up to vote for even if you don't make a mark for every position on the ballot.

dude

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2018, 08:06:50 AM »
I sense I'm going to be in the minority in this one, but so be it. I'm not voting in this round. I'm tired of both parties and extremism on both sides. I'm not going to vote for the lesser of two evils...I hate that idea. I'm not going to vote for someone I don't like either as a person or if I disagree with most of their platform. Those two qualifications alone rule out anywhere from 95-100% of politicians.

For example, the big race around here is Beto O'Rourke vs Ted Cruz for Senate. I don't like Cruz, he's a slimy robot/reptilian (haven't decided which yet). I liked Beto (finally, a real human!) until I watched him in a debate...he's pretty much just another Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie Sanders follower. He voted against Kate's Law, which states that immigrants who are violent criminals and repeatedly trespass into our country and commit violent crime should be put in jail, not just deported...to cross into our borders and commit another violent crime. I can't imagine why any politician on either side would vote against that. I'd like him to look in the eyes of a mother who's daughter was killed by a repeat offender violent immigrant and explain to her why he voted against that law. Oh, and I hate the idea of The Wall, too.

For context, I consider myself a right-leaning moderate. I've voted for the loser of the Presidential race every time, including when I was 18 and only old enough by a month. I believe I'm much more informed about politics than the average person voting...but I'm just not gonna vote for someone I don't support.

/rant

"Extremism" on both sides? Frankly, that's a laughable assertion.  Setting that aside, this statement:

"He voted against Kate's Law, which states that immigrants who are violent criminals and repeatedly trespass into our country and commit violent crime should be put in jail, not just deported...to cross into our borders and commit another violent crime."

evinces a high degree of ignorance as to how our criminal justice system actually works. Are you under the impression that under current law/policies, illegal immigrants who commit violent crimes are somehow just whisked across the border without facing criminal penalties?  I can assure you, as someone who has worked in federal prisons for 21+ years, that is not the case. Violent crimes committed by anyone, immigrant or not, are prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and our federal prisons have many illegal immigrants serving lengthy sentences for numerous crimes, violent or otherwise. Once their sentence has expired, they are turned over to ICE and processed for deportation. On occasion, some of them are "Treaty transferred" to their country of origin to serve the remainder of their U.S. sentences there -- and those countries reciprocate by sending our citizens who've committed crimes in foreign countries back to the U.S. to serve out their foreign sentences. So you are mistaken if you somehow believe that illegal immigrants who've committed violent crimes get sent away scot-free back to their country of origin. That's simply not how it works.

Dabnasty

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2018, 08:41:30 AM »
He voted against Kate's Law, which states that immigrants who are violent criminals and repeatedly trespass into our country and commit violent crime should be put in jail, not just deported...to cross into our borders and commit another violent crime. I can't imagine why any politician on either side would vote against that. I'd like him to look in the eyes of a mother who's daughter was killed by a repeat offender violent immigrant and explain to her why he voted against that law. Oh, and I hate the idea of The Wall, too.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that this law would change is giving stiffer penalties to those who have been deported/denied entry and subsequently re-enter. This includes those whose only crimes were illegal entry or other misdemeanors, not just violent criminals. As dude already mentioned, no one is getting off the hook because they're an illegal immigrant.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/3004

Quote
The bill provides that an alien who has been excluded, deported, removed, or denied admission, or who has departed the United States while under an outstanding order of exclusion, deportation, or removal, and who subsequently crosses or attempts to cross the border into the United States, shall be fined, imprisoned not more than two years, or both. ("Crosses the border" refers to the physical act of crossing the border, regardless of whether the alien is free from official restraint.)

The bill revises reentry of criminal offender provisions to provide that an alien who was convicted before such removal or departure of:
• three or more misdemeanors or for a felony shall be fined, imprisoned up to 10 years, or both;
•a felony for which the alien was sentenced to not less than 30 months in prison shall be fined, imprisoned up to 15 years, or both;
•a felony for which the alien was sentenced to not less than 60 months shall be fined, imprisoned up to 20 years, or both; or
•murder, rape, kidnapping, or a felony offense relating to peonage and slavery or terrorism, or of three or more felonies of any kind, shall be fined, imprisoned up to 25 years, or both.

I'm not trying to be critical here, but I do hope that you can take something away from this. When a politician does something that causes you to feel outrage, you should really take the time to see if your feelings are based on reality.  When it comes to how someone voted on a particular law the information is there in plain English. Well, sometimes it is anyway.

So much of the outrage and cynicism against politicians comes not from the actions of those politicians, but the interpretation of those actions after it's been funneled through their opponents in the media. Go to the source.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 08:50:06 AM by Dabnasty »

haflander

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2018, 08:51:49 AM »
nah, I'm gonna stand by calling both sides as extreme. One only has to look to the White House (or read the tweets of The Great Orange One) and the Kavanaugh mess to see that both sides keep moving to the fringes at the cost of the middle.
Dabnasty is right.
I didn't phrase the Kate's Law thing well. I don't think they're quickly deported or "whisked across the border" or "sent away scot-free" rather than jailed. Maybe a better worded illustration of my opinion is the following... I like our current policy of being tough on illegal immigrants who commit violent crimes. Any politician against that policy, such as Beto, I will not support. His desire to not appear to be against Hispanics, in any way whatsoever, conflicts greatly with common sense legislation and makes me sick.

If you care a lot or still think I'm very in the wrong about the above, consider making another thread. I don't, so I prolly won't join you there. I don't want to derail this thread more than I have already. This thread was an encouragement to vote, and I gave an example of why I wasn't dying to vote. To quote arebelspy, cheers!

Gondolin

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2018, 08:55:34 AM »
Quote
I'm not going to vote for the lesser of two evils...I hate that idea. I'm not going to vote for someone I don't like either as a person or if I disagree with most of their platform. Those two qualifications alone rule out anywhere from 95-100% of politicians.

I doubt an internet stranger will convince you of anything but I'll say it anyway.

You're not a cool, principled rebel who's opting out of the system by not voting. You're a stooge who is tacitly supporting the status quo.

Enjoy 6 more years of Cruz!

haflander

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2018, 09:12:22 AM »
Gondolin, that's fair. I'm not gonna stoop or resort to name-calling to make my points, tho. Everyone has to make their own decisions, and I made mine this time. You're right, in a roundabout way I am supporting the status quo, and I'm fine with that. Maybe I'll change with age and maturity (as we all do) or in response to well-reasoned politely stated views, such as Glenstache issued. We all change... I voted against Obama twice; now I like Obama and definitely would vote for him today. I'm 100% ok with looking back on this time and myself and the fact that I didn't vote because of how I felt at that time.

What I don't support is doing something out of guilt or because someone told me to do so. I'm gonna make my own choices. 6 more Cruz years is fine, because that's what Texas (barely) wanted.

ketchup

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2018, 09:35:13 AM »
Ranked choice voting would help a lot with the "vote for the lesser evil" problem, and might even help break up the D/R duopoly, or give them motivation to actually cater to the middle.  Yes, I listen to Freakonomics.

I voted.  Everyone I voted for one in a landslide or close to it (IL 3rd district), so my vote "didn't matter," but I voted.

Roots&Wings

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2018, 11:32:43 AM »
I voted, and even posted a yard sign for a friend running for City Council who won (yay!). City Council for some reason is "nonpartisan".
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 11:35:20 AM by Roots&Wings »

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2018, 12:38:20 PM »
Ranked choice voting would help a lot with the "vote for the lesser evil" problem, and might even help break up the D/R duopoly, or give them motivation to actually cater to the middle.  Yes, I listen to Freakonomics.

I voted.  Everyone I voted for one in a landslide or close to it (IL 3rd district), so my vote "didn't matter," but I voted.

The only competitive race that I voted in was for governor, and I'm disappointed to learn that my next governor will be a corrupt asshole. I'm a minority (politically speaking) in an overwhelmingly Republican district. I'm in agreement that ranked choice voting would be an effective way to address the legislative polarization that we face.

OurTown

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2018, 12:44:21 PM »
I probably make enough money to vote Republican but I still have a soul, so I voted for Democrats.

goalphish2002

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2018, 01:18:33 PM »
I probably make enough money to vote Republican but I still have a soul, so I voted for Democrats.

Lolz.  You must like patting yourself on the back.  Nice humblebrag, btw!

sui generis

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2018, 06:47:45 PM »
I'm not sure when voting became something people have to be inspired to be great heights to be willing to do rather than seen as a simple and legitimate obligation of citizenship, like placing trash in the proper receptacles or helping a neighbor when they have a problem.  But now it's like citizens only want to do it if they get Hollywood blockbuster levels of inspiration out of it.  Voting?  Not unless I can come out with tears in my eyes for the great act of citizenship I have executed to bestow my sacred vote on a compelling and deserving candidate!

Fuck that.

You vote because you have an obligation to contribute to society.  You put your trash in a receptacle, even if inconvenient, because you have an obligation to society.  You help your neighbor, even if they aren't your favorite and you don't really think their problem is *that* big a deal, because we are trying to have a fucking society here and people need to extend a gracious hand when they have the opportunity to do so.  I'm so fucking sick of people that think they are goddamn owed an inspiration miracle just to cast a fucking ballot.

Thank you to those who vote.  Even when it's tough, as it is for far too many.  Even when it's not fun, as it rarely is.  Even when you are not inspired.  Because having a functioning society - on the national, state and local level - requires your participation and like many jobs, is not always inspiring, but is greatly needed.  It's just one of many tragedies of the commons that so many can refuse to participate in making this work.  But you who vote are the kind of citizens we need to make the vision this country was founded upon work.  Thank you for contributing even though it would obviously be so easy to make an excuse not to.  I and many others appreciate your commitment, no matter who you voted for!

BussoV6

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2018, 11:16:32 PM »
I'm not sure when voting became something people have to be inspired to be great heights to be willing to do rather than seen as a simple and legitimate obligation of citizenship, like placing trash in the proper receptacles or helping a neighbor when they have a problem.  But now it's like citizens only want to do it if they get Hollywood blockbuster levels of inspiration out of it.  Voting?  Not unless I can come out with tears in my eyes for the great act of citizenship I have executed to bestow my sacred vote on a compelling and deserving candidate!

Fuck that.

You vote because you have an obligation to contribute to society.  You put your trash in a receptacle, even if inconvenient, because you have an obligation to society.  You help your neighbor, even if they aren't your favorite and you don't really think their problem is *that* big a deal, because we are trying to have a fucking society here and people need to extend a gracious hand when they have the opportunity to do so.  I'm so fucking sick of people that think they are goddamn owed an inspiration miracle just to cast a fucking ballot.

Thank you to those who vote.  Even when it's tough, as it is for far too many.  Even when it's not fun, as it rarely is.  Even when you are not inspired.  Because having a functioning society - on the national, state and local level - requires your participation and like many jobs, is not always inspiring, but is greatly needed.  It's just one of many tragedies of the commons that so many can refuse to participate in making this work.  But you who vote are the kind of citizens we need to make the vision this country was founded upon work.  Thank you for contributing even though it would obviously be so easy to make an excuse not to.  I and many others appreciate your commitment, no matter who you voted for!

I think Australia fine citizens who don't vote.

sui generis

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2018, 08:36:13 AM »
I'm not sure when voting became something people have to be inspired to be great heights to be willing to do rather than seen as a simple and legitimate obligation of citizenship, like placing trash in the proper receptacles or helping a neighbor when they have a problem.  But now it's like citizens only want to do it if they get Hollywood blockbuster levels of inspiration out of it.  Voting?  Not unless I can come out with tears in my eyes for the great act of citizenship I have executed to bestow my sacred vote on a compelling and deserving candidate!

Fuck that.

You vote because you have an obligation to contribute to society.  You put your trash in a receptacle, even if inconvenient, because you have an obligation to society.  You help your neighbor, even if they aren't your favorite and you don't really think their problem is *that* big a deal, because we are trying to have a fucking society here and people need to extend a gracious hand when they have the opportunity to do so.  I'm so fucking sick of people that think they are goddamn owed an inspiration miracle just to cast a fucking ballot.

Thank you to those who vote.  Even when it's tough, as it is for far too many.  Even when it's not fun, as it rarely is.  Even when you are not inspired.  Because having a functioning society - on the national, state and local level - requires your participation and like many jobs, is not always inspiring, but is greatly needed.  It's just one of many tragedies of the commons that so many can refuse to participate in making this work.  But you who vote are the kind of citizens we need to make the vision this country was founded upon work.  Thank you for contributing even though it would obviously be so easy to make an excuse not to.  I and many others appreciate your commitment, no matter who you voted for!

I think Australia fine citizens who don't vote.

I believe they do as well although IIRC the fine is like $20 or $40.  So I don't think they are doing it because it's a massive financial hardship if they don't, but because it's just....what you do. 

Samuel

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2018, 09:02:39 AM »
I'm not sure when voting became something people have to be inspired to be great heights to be willing to do rather than seen as a simple and legitimate obligation of citizenship, like placing trash in the proper receptacles or helping a neighbor when they have a problem.  But now it's like citizens only want to do it if they get Hollywood blockbuster levels of inspiration out of it.  Voting?  Not unless I can come out with tears in my eyes for the great act of citizenship I have executed to bestow my sacred vote on a compelling and deserving candidate!

Fuck that.

You vote because you have an obligation to contribute to society.  You put your trash in a receptacle, even if inconvenient, because you have an obligation to society.  You help your neighbor, even if they aren't your favorite and you don't really think their problem is *that* big a deal, because we are trying to have a fucking society here and people need to extend a gracious hand when they have the opportunity to do so.  I'm so fucking sick of people that think they are goddamn owed an inspiration miracle just to cast a fucking ballot.

Thank you to those who vote.  Even when it's tough, as it is for far too many.  Even when it's not fun, as it rarely is.  Even when you are not inspired.  Because having a functioning society - on the national, state and local level - requires your participation and like many jobs, is not always inspiring, but is greatly needed.  It's just one of many tragedies of the commons that so many can refuse to participate in making this work.  But you who vote are the kind of citizens we need to make the vision this country was founded upon work.  Thank you for contributing even though it would obviously be so easy to make an excuse not to.  I and many others appreciate your commitment, no matter who you voted for!

I also view voting as a civic obligation, the bedrock of our free society. People have fought and died to protect our right to every so often raise our hands and indicate which direction we think our country should be going (which means those that cynically deprive fellow Americans of this right for political advantage are the lowest of the low morally, spiritually, and politically). I'd like to think my character test for candidates has a fairly high bar so I could foresee a situation where I couldn't bring myself to vote in a specific race when all options are crap, but that hasn't happened yet.

 

CupcakeGuru

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2018, 10:21:44 AM »
Ranked choice voting would help a lot with the "vote for the lesser evil" problem, and might even help break up the D/R duopoly, or give them motivation to actually cater to the middle.  Yes, I listen to Freakonomics.

I voted.  Everyone I voted for one in a landslide or close to it (IL 3rd district), so my vote "didn't matter," but I voted.

The only competitive race that I voted in was for governor, and I'm disappointed to learn that my next governor will be a corrupt asshole. I'm a minority (politically speaking) in an overwhelmingly Republican district. I'm in agreement that ranked choice voting would be an effective way to address the legislative polarization that we face.

You are not alone Mississippi!

Sibley

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2018, 12:19:57 PM »
I sense I'm going to be in the minority in this one, but so be it. I'm not voting in this round. I'm tired of both parties and extremism on both sides. I'm not going to vote for the lesser of two evils...I hate that idea. I'm not going to vote for someone I don't like either as a person or if I disagree with most of their platform. Those two qualifications alone rule out anywhere from 95-100% of politicians.

For example, the big race around here is Beto O'Rourke vs Ted Cruz for Senate. I don't like Cruz, he's a slimy robot/reptilian (haven't decided which yet). I liked Beto (finally, a real human!) until I watched him in a debate...he's pretty much just another Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie Sanders follower. He voted against Kate's Law, which states that immigrants who are violent criminals and repeatedly trespass into our country and commit violent crime should be put in jail, not just deported...to cross into our borders and commit another violent crime. I can't imagine why any politician on either side would vote against that. I'd like him to look in the eyes of a mother who's daughter was killed by a repeat offender violent immigrant and explain to her why he voted against that law. Oh, and I hate the idea of The Wall, too.

For context, I consider myself a right-leaning moderate. I've voted for the loser of the Presidential race every time, including when I was 18 and only old enough by a month. I believe I'm much more informed about politics than the average person voting...but I'm just not gonna vote for someone I don't support.

/rant

Ok. Fair enough. However, you are no longer entitled, or allowed, to have an opinion on, or discuss politics, the governing of the country at any level, etc. Period. No exceptions.

No vote = no voice.

You want a voice? Then you need to vote.

goalphish2002

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2018, 12:25:57 PM »
Let's get off our soapbox.  Voting is a privilege, and people did die for those rights.  But, freedom means you don't have to vote, either.  Hence, people died for that also.   

marty998

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2018, 01:36:43 PM »
Let's get off our soapbox.  Voting is a privilege, and people did die for those rights.  But, freedom means you don't have to vote, either.  Hence, people died for that also.

No, that's ridiculous. Do you really think when people fight against their colonial overlords they ponder to themselves "gee I really hope my great great descendants 200 years hence will enjoy the fact they don't have to vote". Of course not. They have fought and died so their people can live a life of peace and dignity, by allowing them to toss out the ruler in charge if they don't like what they do anymore.

Not exercising your vote is a giant "fuck you" to the ideals all of our predecessors fought for. It's offensive.

I sense I'm going to be in the minority in this one, but so be it. I'm not voting in this round. I'm tired of both parties and extremism on both sides. I'm not going to vote for the lesser of two evils...I hate that idea. I'm not going to vote for someone I don't like either as a person or if I disagree with most of their platform. Those two qualifications alone rule out anywhere from 95-100% of politicians.

For example, the big race around here is Beto O'Rourke vs Ted Cruz for Senate. I don't like Cruz, he's a slimy robot/reptilian (haven't decided which yet). I liked Beto (finally, a real human!) until I watched him in a debate...he's pretty much just another Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie Sanders follower. He voted against Kate's Law, which states that immigrants who are violent criminals and repeatedly trespass into our country and commit violent crime should be put in jail, not just deported...to cross into our borders and commit another violent crime. I can't imagine why any politician on either side would vote against that. I'd like him to look in the eyes of a mother who's daughter was killed by a repeat offender violent immigrant and explain to her why he voted against that law. Oh, and I hate the idea of The Wall, too.

For context, I consider myself a right-leaning moderate. I've voted for the loser of the Presidential race every time, including when I was 18 and only old enough by a month. I believe I'm much more informed about politics than the average person voting...but I'm just not gonna vote for someone I don't support.

/rant

Ok. Fair enough. However, you are no longer entitled, or allowed, to have an opinion on, or discuss politics, the governing of the country at any level, etc. Period. No exceptions.

No vote = no voice.

You want a voice? Then you need to vote.


This is the correct answer.

And if you don't like any candidate, you can always stand for office yourself. Be the change you want to see in the world.

MasterStache

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2018, 01:45:18 PM »
I sense I'm going to be in the minority in this one, but so be it. I'm not voting in this round. I'm tired of both parties and extremism on both sides. I'm not going to vote for the lesser of two evils...I hate that idea. I'm not going to vote for someone I don't like either as a person or if I disagree with most of their platform. Those two qualifications alone rule out anywhere from 95-100% of politicians.

For example, the big race around here is Beto O'Rourke vs Ted Cruz for Senate. I don't like Cruz, he's a slimy robot/reptilian (haven't decided which yet). I liked Beto (finally, a real human!) until I watched him in a debate...he's pretty much just another Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie Sanders follower. He voted against Kate's Law, which states that immigrants who are violent criminals and repeatedly trespass into our country and commit violent crime should be put in jail, not just deported...to cross into our borders and commit another violent crime. I can't imagine why any politician on either side would vote against that. I'd like him to look in the eyes of a mother who's daughter was killed by a repeat offender violent immigrant and explain to her why he voted against that law. Oh, and I hate the idea of The Wall, too.

For context, I consider myself a right-leaning moderate. I've voted for the loser of the Presidential race every time, including when I was 18 and only old enough by a month. I believe I'm much more informed about politics than the average person voting...but I'm just not gonna vote for someone I don't support.

/rant

Ok. Fair enough. However, you are no longer entitled, or allowed, to have an opinion on, or discuss politics, the governing of the country at any level, etc. Period. No exceptions.

No vote = no voice.

You want a voice? Then you need to vote.

I pretty much said that to my wife (in a more roundabout way) as she was complaining about possibly not voting. Needless to say she went and voted.

Also +1 to local issues. We had 3 local issues on the ballot. I was disappointed to see folks in my state overwhelmingly supported an initiative to keep locking up minor drug offenders vs rehabilitation. The opioid epidemic is getting considerably worse and no one seems to want to do anything about it.  I also live in a red state so wasn't all that surprised.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2018, 09:10:25 AM »
Women worked hard to get me the federal and provincial vote.  I vote in every election.

Politicians look at total number of votes, not just who won.  If my vote means my choice lost but my vote helped make it a close race, that is better than if my choice loses by a landslide because nobody bothered to vote for a predicted to lose  candidate.

Plus even if I don't like any of my choices (we have lots of parties to chose from) there will be ones I really don't want to see win.  Sometimes the informed vote is the vote against.  As in, Rob Ford was bad enough as mayor of Toronto, now we have brother Dougie as Premier of Ontario?  I held my nose and voted for a candidate I didn't like at the last provincial election, simply becasue he had the best chance of beating the local Conservative candidate.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 09:14:22 AM by RetiredAt63 »

goalphish2002

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2018, 12:16:40 PM »
Let's get off our soapbox.  Voting is a privilege, and people did die for those rights.  But, freedom means you don't have to vote, either.  Hence, people died for that also.

No, that's ridiculous. Do you really think when people fight against their colonial overlords they ponder to themselves "gee I really hope my great great descendants 200 years hence will enjoy the fact they don't have to vote". Of course not. They have fought and died so their people can live a life of peace and dignity, by allowing them to toss out the ruler in charge if they don't like what they do anymore.

Not exercising your vote is a giant "fuck you" to the ideals all of our predecessors fought for. It's offensive.

I sense I'm going to be in the minority in this one, but so be it. I'm not voting in this round. I'm tired of both parties and extremism on both sides. I'm not going to vote for the lesser of two evils...I hate that idea. I'm not going to vote for someone I don't like either as a person or if I disagree with most of their platform. Those two qualifications alone rule out anywhere from 95-100% of politicians.

For example, the big race around here is Beto O'Rourke vs Ted Cruz for Senate. I don't like Cruz, he's a slimy robot/reptilian (haven't decided which yet). I liked Beto (finally, a real human!) until I watched him in a debate...he's pretty much just another Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie Sanders follower. He voted against Kate's Law, which states that immigrants who are violent criminals and repeatedly trespass into our country and commit violent crime should be put in jail, not just deported...to cross into our borders and commit another violent crime. I can't imagine why any politician on either side would vote against that. I'd like him to look in the eyes of a mother who's daughter was killed by a repeat offender violent immigrant and explain to her why he voted against that law. Oh, and I hate the idea of The Wall, too.

For context, I consider myself a right-leaning moderate. I've voted for the loser of the Presidential race every time, including when I was 18 and only old enough by a month. I believe I'm much more informed about politics than the average person voting...but I'm just not gonna vote for someone I don't support.

/rant

Ok. Fair enough. However, you are no longer entitled, or allowed, to have an opinion on, or discuss politics, the governing of the country at any level, etc. Period. No exceptions.

No vote = no voice.

You want a voice? Then you need to vote.


This is the correct answer.

And if you don't like any candidate, you can always stand for office yourself. Be the change you want to see in the world.

Nah.  You don't decide the correct answer.  If people want to kneel in protest and not vote, they can do so.  They can also complain about it later.  Then, you can get upset about it, and talk about it with superiority.  :D 

rob in cal

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2018, 10:55:41 AM »
  I think it would be great if we had national referenda held on significant national issues, not just on the state level, similar to Switzerland and Italy to an extent.  That would help depersonalize issues, which I think would be helpful, and then voting would be more than just supporting some random candidates. Of course that would mean putting our trust in the national electorate to not just elect a President but to pass judgement on actual things like tax policy, federal drug laws, immigration law changes etc.  Not sure if people on any side of the political spectrum would be too confident about letting the unwashed masses have such a direct say in these matters.

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gaja

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2018, 04:46:25 PM »
Election won by one (1) vote. Yep.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/417097-democrat-beats-republican-by-1-vote-in-kentucky-state-house-race?fbclid=IwAR07q60vGv8Xnh2HyFBaxGm06NYzJy-_FHltY5R6Aj9C1gsYBgyf33Tp5RY

That is fantastic - thank you for sharing! I've only heard about such a close race one time before, and that was in a place with 45 inhabitants, where they got a split 22-22. But this race had a few thousand more.

sui generis

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2018, 05:44:27 PM »
Election won by one (1) vote. Yep.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/417097-democrat-beats-republican-by-1-vote-in-kentucky-state-house-race?fbclid=IwAR07q60vGv8Xnh2HyFBaxGm06NYzJy-_FHltY5R6Aj9C1gsYBgyf33Tp5RY

That is fantastic - thank you for sharing! I've only heard about such a close race one time before, and that was in a place with 45 inhabitants, where they got a split 22-22. But this race had a few thousand more.

Last year in VA, there was an even closer one.  The Dem thought she had won, but the R got the canvassing board to count a previously-rejected ballot, leaving it tied after a recount.  So they drew names out of a...film canister.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/01/04/drawing-today-decide-virginia-state-house-race-majority-party/1002910001/

Sibley

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2018, 08:12:09 PM »
Let's get off our soapbox.  Voting is a privilege, and people did die for those rights.  But, freedom means you don't have to vote, either.  Hence, people died for that also.

No, that's ridiculous. Do you really think when people fight against their colonial overlords they ponder to themselves "gee I really hope my great great descendants 200 years hence will enjoy the fact they don't have to vote". Of course not. They have fought and died so their people can live a life of peace and dignity, by allowing them to toss out the ruler in charge if they don't like what they do anymore.

Not exercising your vote is a giant "fuck you" to the ideals all of our predecessors fought for. It's offensive.

I sense I'm going to be in the minority in this one, but so be it. I'm not voting in this round. I'm tired of both parties and extremism on both sides. I'm not going to vote for the lesser of two evils...I hate that idea. I'm not going to vote for someone I don't like either as a person or if I disagree with most of their platform. Those two qualifications alone rule out anywhere from 95-100% of politicians.

For example, the big race around here is Beto O'Rourke vs Ted Cruz for Senate. I don't like Cruz, he's a slimy robot/reptilian (haven't decided which yet). I liked Beto (finally, a real human!) until I watched him in a debate...he's pretty much just another Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie Sanders follower. He voted against Kate's Law, which states that immigrants who are violent criminals and repeatedly trespass into our country and commit violent crime should be put in jail, not just deported...to cross into our borders and commit another violent crime. I can't imagine why any politician on either side would vote against that. I'd like him to look in the eyes of a mother who's daughter was killed by a repeat offender violent immigrant and explain to her why he voted against that law. Oh, and I hate the idea of The Wall, too.

For context, I consider myself a right-leaning moderate. I've voted for the loser of the Presidential race every time, including when I was 18 and only old enough by a month. I believe I'm much more informed about politics than the average person voting...but I'm just not gonna vote for someone I don't support.

/rant

Ok. Fair enough. However, you are no longer entitled, or allowed, to have an opinion on, or discuss politics, the governing of the country at any level, etc. Period. No exceptions.

No vote = no voice.

You want a voice? Then you need to vote.


This is the correct answer.

And if you don't like any candidate, you can always stand for office yourself. Be the change you want to see in the world.

Nah.  You don't decide the correct answer.  If people want to kneel in protest and not vote, they can do so.  They can also complain about it later.  Then, you can get upset about it, and talk about it with superiority.  :D

Please revisit your history. Specifically, the run up to the Revolutionary War. Key phrases you might want to look for include "taxation without representation"

Voting is how we in the USA have a direct voice in our government. If you don't vote, then you have forfeited your voice. How many have died, or been beaten, or been arrested over the right to vote? It matters.

goalphish2002

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2018, 07:10:27 AM »
Let's get off our soapbox.  Voting is a privilege, and people did die for those rights.  But, freedom means you don't have to vote, either.  Hence, people died for that also.

No, that's ridiculous. Do you really think when people fight against their colonial overlords they ponder to themselves "gee I really hope my great great descendants 200 years hence will enjoy the fact they don't have to vote". Of course not. They have fought and died so their people can live a life of peace and dignity, by allowing them to toss out the ruler in charge if they don't like what they do anymore.

Not exercising your vote is a giant "fuck you" to the ideals all of our predecessors fought for. It's offensive.

I sense I'm going to be in the minority in this one, but so be it. I'm not voting in this round. I'm tired of both parties and extremism on both sides. I'm not going to vote for the lesser of two evils...I hate that idea. I'm not going to vote for someone I don't like either as a person or if I disagree with most of their platform. Those two qualifications alone rule out anywhere from 95-100% of politicians.

For example, the big race around here is Beto O'Rourke vs Ted Cruz for Senate. I don't like Cruz, he's a slimy robot/reptilian (haven't decided which yet). I liked Beto (finally, a real human!) until I watched him in a debate...he's pretty much just another Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie Sanders follower. He voted against Kate's Law, which states that immigrants who are violent criminals and repeatedly trespass into our country and commit violent crime should be put in jail, not just deported...to cross into our borders and commit another violent crime. I can't imagine why any politician on either side would vote against that. I'd like him to look in the eyes of a mother who's daughter was killed by a repeat offender violent immigrant and explain to her why he voted against that law. Oh, and I hate the idea of The Wall, too.

For context, I consider myself a right-leaning moderate. I've voted for the loser of the Presidential race every time, including when I was 18 and only old enough by a month. I believe I'm much more informed about politics than the average person voting...but I'm just not gonna vote for someone I don't support.

/rant

Ok. Fair enough. However, you are no longer entitled, or allowed, to have an opinion on, or discuss politics, the governing of the country at any level, etc. Period. No exceptions.

No vote = no voice.

You want a voice? Then you need to vote.


This is the correct answer.

And if you don't like any candidate, you can always stand for office yourself. Be the change you want to see in the world.

Nah.  You don't decide the correct answer.  If people want to kneel in protest and not vote, they can do so.  They can also complain about it later.  Then, you can get upset about it, and talk about it with superiority.  :D

Please revisit your history. Specifically, the run up to the Revolutionary War. Key phrases you might want to look for include "taxation without representation"

Voting is how we in the USA have a direct voice in our government. If you don't vote, then you have forfeited your voice. How many have died, or been beaten, or been arrested over the right to vote? It matters.

I do vote.  However, I refuse to berate people that don't vote.  It is a choice.

use2betrix

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Re: Voting and the Circle of Influence
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2018, 07:30:02 AM »
"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter"
-Winston Churchill