Author Topic: Umbrella Insurance  (Read 19762 times)

seattlecyclone

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #100 on: June 18, 2021, 05:45:07 PM »
Thanks for the detailed run-down! Do you think your process is the way most personal injury lawyers handle it?If every plaintiff hires someone like you I think I'd be satisfied with that outcome in the end. If you get lawyers who often take cases where they don't offer to settle for the insurance amount or less, or they fail to do the turnabout thing where they team up with you to sue the insurance company for negligence, then you as a defendant are still on the hook for the excess. It would be useful to know how much of a risk that actually is.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #101 on: June 18, 2021, 06:05:15 PM »
Thanks for detailed inside baseball @FIREby35, super interesting stuff.

A few questions:
1) why do insurers hire defense lawyers and pay them by the hour, creating the claim milking phenomenon, instead of having salaried in-house lawyers who could be more easily supervised?
2) as a defendent, what can I do minimize the risk of my representation breaching their quasi-fiduciary duty to me? Regularly ask them point blank, in writing, if a settlement has been offered?
3) I didn't fully understand what comfort letters are supposed to achieve, from the insurer's point of view. Why send one at all?

FIREby35

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #102 on: June 19, 2021, 09:56:19 AM »
Seattle:

The way I described is not how average lawyers do it. Average lawyers will never push past your insurance limits. You should understand they are too lazy to pursue assets beyond the insurance policy. If not lazy, then not yet fully formed advocates. If a personal injury lawyer pushes for true, full and fair compensation for serious injuries they will encounter a lot of insurance pushback. It takes time to become the advocate required to really get injured people what they deserve. It is much easier to take what the insurance company gives without a fight. A personal injury lawyer can be fat and happy on easy insurance payments as long as they don't think about how little the injured person is getting.

Paul der Krake:

1. Insurance companies do set up "in-house" relationships in addition to hiring outside firms. But, that is a raging conflict of interest and gives me everything I need to blow past their policy limits. Can you see it? Does the insurance company in-house lawyer represent their employer or the client? The law says they are supposed to rep the real, live person. Practical reality of an in-house counsel is that the insurer is calling the shots in their own interest.

2. The milking phenomenon is a part of any hourly paid legal service. It's really unavoidable. What's interesting, to me, is how the insurance companies do successfully negotiate for very low hourly rates in my town. There are plenty of lawyers ready to get on the corporate gravy train. But, the idea that insurance defense lawyers are prestigious is laughable. Most of the time they are nothing but low-level pawns taking orders from insurance adjusters. They may parade around town as "Corporate lawyers" but they have no power. Of course, there are exceptions to this generalization. But, I hardly bother talking to my opposing lawyers until we begin preparing the case for trial bc that lawyer has to get permission from the insurance adjuster for everything.

3. Comfort letters protect the insured. They say, "Be comforted, we will pay any verdict because we rejected offers to settle inside your insurance limit." Insurance companies hate them. I always try to force them to issue them. Average lawyer has never heard of it. Insurance defense lawyers pretend they have never heard of them. If the insurance defense lawyer really represented the live, human defendant then they would pursue a comfort letter for their client every single time. When I start asking them to get one for their client and they don't, the cement their conflict of interest and confirm my ability to collect an excess verdict. If they do get it, then they also confirm my ability to collect a full verdict. That's a "heads I win, tails you lose" situation for an insurance defense lawyer. You can imagine how much they like me.

4. To protect yourself, yes, 100% ask your lawyer if offers to settle have been made. Even better, tell them to offer the policy limit in writing. Really want to protect yourself? Go hire a Plaintiff lawyer in your town as "Personal Counsel" and have them demand this information and a comfort letter. This lawyer will behave differently than the lawyer paid by the insurance company because they are not compromised by the obvious conflict of interest.

5. I show my offer letters to defendants in depositions. I can always tell when the defense lawyer hasn't told the client about it because they object and ruin my deposition. The defendant is totally confused. This just proves the insurance defense lawyer violated their professional duty to inform their client of offers to settle. After some years, I have learned to have all depositions recorded and I have sanctions motions and briefs on file, ready to go for immediately after. We'll do the same thing again, but this time they are paying.

PS: I don't have to "set up" insurance companies to commit bad-faith. They do it on their own. When they get caught they say, "Hey, you set me up!" lol.


seattlecyclone

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #103 on: June 19, 2021, 10:27:27 AM »
It's rather surprising to hear that collecting from a known higher-net-worth individual is so difficult that most lawyers won't even bother to try for a higher settlement, but I'm happy to defer to your experience on that.

FIREby35

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #104 on: June 19, 2021, 10:44:19 AM »
Seattle: If you have a 1 million dollar policy you can rest assured knowing the insurance company will protect THEIR one-million with vigor. (Here, your interests align with the insurer). Few lawyers in your town have ever achieved a one-million dollar verdict or settlement. The insurance company knows which lawyers those are. If they sense advantage, they will force the lawyer to "go get it." Even with a strong opponent, a million dollar verdict is not so common. They will take their chances and defend. It's a rational choice, just not in their client's interest.

If you negligently hurt someone so bad that a one-million dollar policy is offered easily, your insurance company will demand a release of liability to protect your assets before paying.

The situation you are concerned about, major loss, insurance company offers limit timely and the opposing lawyer still wants to collect your personal assets is possible, but rare. Imagine the average lawyers saying, "No, I don't want your one million (333k to lawyer). Instead, I want to litigate for years, at my cost and go to a jury trial for the possibility of collecting marginally more 3, 4 or 5 years in the future (and the possibility of losing the jury trial)."

Possible? Yes. Likely? No.

I'm gonna have a trial in a month. State Farm has never offered a penny for 6 years since the crash. This is much more common. Straight deny and see who can climb the mountain.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #105 on: June 19, 2021, 11:14:48 AM »
If you negligently hurt someone so bad that a one-million dollar policy is offered easily, your insurance company will demand a release of liability to protect your assets before paying.

Sorry, this bit wasn't clear to me. Would the insurance company demand I sign something to promise not to go after them for the excess, or would they demand the opposing party sign something to promise they won't go after me?

Quote
The situation you are concerned about, major loss, insurance company offers limit timely and the opposing lawyer still wants to collect your personal assets is possible, but rare. Imagine the average lawyers saying, "No, I don't want your one million (333k to lawyer). Instead, I want to litigate for years, at my cost and go to a jury trial for the possibility of collecting marginally more 3, 4 or 5 years in the future (and the possibility of losing the jury trial)."

"Possible but rare" is exactly why I'm buying insurance, no? If you're saying the insurance company flat-out won't ever agree to a settlement above the policy limit where I pay the excess, and that the only way to get more than the policy limit is to go to trial, that actually makes me feel pretty good about things. I know a few lawyers, and their income can be very irregular because of cases that drag out. The number who can afford to turn down being paid today in order to be paid double in five years isn't very high.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 11:37:42 AM by seattlecyclone »

BlueMR2

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #106 on: June 20, 2021, 09:17:52 AM »
I'd be curious to know where you live. It seems you have a terrible agent if doubling your umbrella policy costs anywhere near to double the price. My experience is that's only slightly more. Do you have litigation issues in your past?

Ohio.  Never been sued.  No accident claims (house or vehicle), not even a speeding ticket ever myself.  I've shopped multiple companies and the numbers all come back in the same range.  One place told me it's because they penalize people with more vehicles than drivers.  Seems crazy to me.  It's not like I'm using more than 1 at a time...  And yet somehow if I owned multiple houses and rented them out it wouldn't increase the risk and payments?

Then as I mentioned above, reading the fine print they exempt the umbrella from covering things that the standard insurance does cover, so you should expect to fall back to that base coverage anyways.  It's kind of like that credit card car rental insurance, sounds like a great idea, but read the terms and conditions and it's unusable in practice due to all the restrictions and requirements.  Every discussion with insurance agents (including ones I otherwise like and use) about umbrella insurance has me walking out feeling like they're trying to rip me off.

lutorm

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #107 on: June 20, 2021, 12:14:53 PM »
... reading the fine print they exempt the umbrella from covering things that the standard insurance does cover, so you should expect to fall back to that base coverage anyways.
Isn't that why it's called "umbrella", it's "on top" of the other things that they want you to insure separately?

I assumed the reason it can be cheap is because the marginal risk of needing to use the insurance beyond the standard coverages is so small.

Jack0Life

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #108 on: June 20, 2021, 02:44:02 PM »
Reading all this stuff is very interesting.
A hypothetical situation:
If I was getting sued and I know I might lose, knowing what type of assets are protected.
Beside the primary home, 401k, IRAs, SS, I can go buy an annuity with money I have left so there are very little left they can take from it. Is this the gist of it or there's more to it ??

FIREby35

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #109 on: June 21, 2021, 08:29:46 AM »
If you negligently hurt someone so bad that a one-million dollar policy is offered easily, your insurance company will demand a release of liability to protect your assets before paying.

Sorry, this bit wasn't clear to me. Would the insurance company demand I sign something to promise not to go after them for the excess, or would they demand the opposing party sign something to promise they won't go after me?

Quote
The situation you are concerned about, major loss, insurance company offers limit timely and the opposing lawyer still wants to collect your personal assets is possible, but rare. Imagine the average lawyers saying, "No, I don't want your one million (333k to lawyer). Instead, I want to litigate for years, at my cost and go to a jury trial for the possibility of collecting marginally more 3, 4 or 5 years in the future (and the possibility of losing the jury trial)."

"Possible but rare" is exactly why I'm buying insurance, no? If you're saying the insurance company flat-out won't ever agree to a settlement above the policy limit where I pay the excess, and that the only way to get more than the policy limit is to go to trial, that actually makes me feel pretty good about things. I know a few lawyers, and their income can be very irregular because of cases that drag out. The number who can afford to turn down being paid today in order to be paid double in five years isn't very high.

1. The release is for the person injured by negligence. Before receiving any settlement, the insurance for the negligent person will require the negligence victim to sign a complete release. I'll say to my injured client, "When you sign this paper it means the case is over. You will never be able to come back for more. If we discover something new and terrible after you sign this paper it does not matter. So, when you sign this know it means case closed FOREVER."

From the point of view of the person whose negligence caused injury, this "release of liability" ends the threat of any liability in excess of your insurance.

2. You point about lawyers, their finances and the rare few who can turn down a big settlement today in favor of pursuing a "full justice verdict" tomorrow is spot on. I'm able to do what I do for injured people bc of my Mustachian nature. I can play the long game against insurance companies. While I don't have resources equal to an insurance company, I have enough that it doesn't matter on a single lawsuit. They can't outspend or outlast me. This is "FU" money applied professionally.

The fact is you should feel pretty  good knowing what I have told you. The insurance will fight hard to protect their money. So hard, they sometimes forget their job is to protect you and not their money. If/When they make that mistake, I can "judo" that mistake into the potential for an unlimited recovery at trial. An excess verdict would rarely be a problem where your assets are at risk after any common negligence if you are adequately insured (car crash, is the obvious example).

3. Just like, final overview, the purpose of Umbrella, liability only insurance is protecting you if you negligently cause injury. All we have discussed is highly fact-specific for any individual case. But, having an umbrella policy to protect your assets is a good, necessary thing. Make it proportional to your assets without overdoing it.  I've tried to make sure everyone understands an umbrella policy usually protects against liability only. To protect yourself against the negligence of others you need to pump up your Uninsured/Underinsured coverage or make a point to have that included within an umbrella coverage. It is at least as big a risk that a negligent driver will injure you, have little insurance and cause major financial liability as the other way around. So, don't focus on being negligent so much that you forget it is also possible to be a victim of negligence.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 08:34:34 AM by FIREby35 »

Loren Ver

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #110 on: June 21, 2021, 05:17:00 PM »
DH and I have been going back and forth on umbrella for a while too.  Most of our assets are not in protected forms so they should be protected, but the cost for us isn't as cheap as others are finding and how it protects we find off putting.

Cost:
1 million for us is about 440 per year and that covers liability and non/underinsured motorists (they are required to both be equal or the motorist to be denied). 

2 million goes up to 660 per year. 

We have never had a car accident, no tickets, good credit, no kids, no previous litigation etc.  I think our issue is also that we have 2 drivers and three cars, even though we don't drive much (FIREd).

How it protects:

As someone else stated, we aren't sure how much to buy since buying up to networth makes no sense.  You don't need your networth protected, you need the amount you can likely be sued for plus one dollar.  I have no idea what that number is.  If we got the 1 million policy and someone sued us for 1.5 million and the insurance paid the million, that 500,000 would still crash the stash.  So now you need 2 million coverage.  But if you are sued for 2.5 million, same problem. 

So what are the likelihoods of actually being sued (or damaged by under/non- insured) in values in excess of the more standard 300,000/500,000?  And if lawyers are only targeting insurance limits, why pay for more than that?  That's pretty reasonable coverage?

I feel like I am lacking a graph or table with which to help me make an informed decision based on actual data.

meandmyfamily

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #111 on: June 22, 2021, 06:31:14 AM »
Thank you FIREby35 this really helps me.  Keep up the good work with your clients!

I got my umbrella insurance and now I will up under and uninsured motorists.

jac941

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #112 on: June 22, 2021, 12:37:18 PM »
So what are the likelihoods of actually being sued (or damaged by under/non- insured) in values in excess of the more standard 300,000/500,000?  And if lawyers are only targeting insurance limits, why pay for more than that?  That's pretty reasonable coverage?

I feel like I am lacking a graph or table with which to help me make an informed decision based on actual data.

I’m definitely no expert, but I can tell you that we looked at this from the other way around. How much UM/UIM and med pay coverage do we need that we would not feel it was worth it to go after the at fault party for amounts beyond the coverage limits. For us it was $100k med pay and $1 million UM/UIM. We also have $1 million umbrella which is cheap and worth the peace of mind.

My concern about the level of guilt I’d feel for destroying someone’s life so badly that they could get more than $2 million out of me is more than my concern about having my net worth impacted. To get that kind of settlement, you generally have to permanently disable or kill someone. Doing $300k worth of damages on the other hand isn’t that hard. Hit someone making $100k / yr, shatter their tibia and a small brain injury (both very common) will result in not permanent disability but easily a couple of years of surgery / recovery / rehab. Lost wages + medical bills could easily hit that and you aren’t even getting into pain and suffering, scarring, and other real but less quantifiable effects.

Having personally been badly injured in a car crash, I mostly want to move on and get enough money that my expenses are covered and that I don’t lose money on the whole thing. No amount of money will make it ok, and if I had the choice I’d have the at fault driver’s license and vehicle revoked over any financial settlement. I’ve spoken to a lot of victims and most would give all the money back to not have the injuries.

In any case, that all goes back to think of what you will need and hope that it’s enough for any damage that you do. For me $1 million felt right - it will cover my salary and expenses for a few years plus the additional expenses of extra medical bills, physical therapy, mental health therapy, transportation to appointments, food delivery, gardener, housekeeper, childcare and other extra expenses for more household and transportation help incurred while I focus on my recovery. For me, the highest priority is getting better and knowing I don’t have to maintain a strict budget and can instead pay for all the extra help I need is worth having the higher level of coverage.

thedigitalone

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #113 on: June 22, 2021, 02:29:39 PM »
Cost:
1 million for us is about 440 per year and that covers liability and non/underinsured motorists (they are required to both be equal or the motorist to be denied). 

2 million goes up to 660 per year. 

This made me go look at our USAA policy, we have homeowners and our cars insured there as well and our $2M umbrella policy is $815 per year, about $68 a month.  I have no idea how other folks are getting such low rates!

justinramani

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #114 on: June 22, 2021, 02:51:04 PM »
Cost:
1 million for us is about 440 per year and that covers liability and non/underinsured motorists (they are required to both be equal or the motorist to be denied). 

2 million goes up to 660 per year. 

This made me go look at our USAA policy, we have homeowners and our cars insured there as well and our $2M umbrella policy is $815 per year, about $68 a month.  I have no idea how other folks are getting such low rates!
I have USAA Umbrella as well and agree that they are quite expensive. On the other hand - I keep them because I feel that they are one of the more reputable companies out there when it comes to insurance.


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Loren Ver

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #115 on: June 23, 2021, 07:26:14 AM »
The company I am looking at is USAA as well.  I can't really imagine going with another company either since they have a history of sticking by the people they insure.  All my other insurance is with them, so it would tie everything together. 

Loren Ver

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #116 on: June 23, 2021, 07:31:12 AM »
So what are the likelihoods of actually being sued (or damaged by under/non- insured) in values in excess of the more standard 300,000/500,000?  And if lawyers are only targeting insurance limits, why pay for more than that?  That's pretty reasonable coverage?

I feel like I am lacking a graph or table with which to help me make an informed decision based on actual data.

I’m definitely no expert, but I can tell you that we looked at this from the other way around. How much UM/UIM and med pay coverage do we need that we would not feel it was worth it to go after the at fault party for amounts beyond the coverage limits. For us it was $100k med pay and $1 million UM/UIM. We also have $1 million umbrella which is cheap and worth the peace of mind.

My concern about the level of guilt I’d feel for destroying someone’s life so badly that they could get more than $2 million out of me is more than my concern about having my net worth impacted. To get that kind of settlement, you generally have to permanently disable or kill someone. Doing $300k worth of damages on the other hand isn’t that hard. Hit someone making $100k / yr, shatter their tibia and a small brain injury (both very common) will result in not permanent disability but easily a couple of years of surgery / recovery / rehab. Lost wages + medical bills could easily hit that and you aren’t even getting into pain and suffering, scarring, and other real but less quantifiable effects.

Having personally been badly injured in a car crash, I mostly want to move on and get enough money that my expenses are covered and that I don’t lose money on the whole thing. No amount of money will make it ok, and if I had the choice I’d have the at fault driver’s license and vehicle revoked over any financial settlement. I’ve spoken to a lot of victims and most would give all the money back to not have the injuries.

In any case, that all goes back to think of what you will need and hope that it’s enough for any damage that you do. For me $1 million felt right - it will cover my salary and expenses for a few years plus the additional expenses of extra medical bills, physical therapy, mental health therapy, transportation to appointments, food delivery, gardener, housekeeper, childcare and other extra expenses for more household and transportation help incurred while I focus on my recovery. For me, the highest priority is getting better and knowing I don’t have to maintain a strict budget and can instead pay for all the extra help I need is worth having the higher level of coverage.

That is an interesting way of looking at it.  Good food for thought. 

I (thankfully) never had to deal with car accidents or even damaged property so knowing how (and how often) expenses leap from 500,000 to 1Million to 2million is still a mystery to me. 


sailinlight

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #117 on: June 23, 2021, 07:32:35 AM »
Not bragging at all, but just to put out a data point- we have three car policies, homeowners, and six rental property policies with USAA and our 1MM umbrella is $255/year. No idea why it's lower than others'. 2MM would be $425, that's a bigger increase than I would have thought.

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #118 on: June 23, 2021, 09:24:07 AM »
The company I am looking at is USAA as well.  I can't really imagine going with another company either since they have a history of sticking by the people they insure.  All my other insurance is with them, so it would tie everything together.

Don't be too sure. My father, a veteran, had USAA for years.  Then, while pulling a 32' Airstream with a new truck, a wind gust whipped the Airstream into resonance (sort of) which caused it to go back and forth until my dad went into the median and rolled both airstream and truck.  Both were totaled.  Amazingly, my Mom and Dad walked away with only a little glass in their skin.

USAA covered both trailer and truck.  They then moved to a different state and when they went to renew their policy were promptly dropped.  USAA will no longer insure them.

FIREby35

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #119 on: July 11, 2021, 08:27:44 AM »
The company I am looking at is USAA as well.  I can't really imagine going with another company either since they have a history of sticking by the people they insure.  All my other insurance is with them, so it would tie everything together.

Don't be too sure. My father, a veteran, had USAA for years.  Then, while pulling a 32' Airstream with a new truck, a wind gust whipped the Airstream into resonance (sort of) which caused it to go back and forth until my dad went into the median and rolled both airstream and truck.  Both were totaled.  Amazingly, my Mom and Dad walked away with only a little glass in their skin.

USAA covered both trailer and truck.  They then moved to a different state and when they went to renew their policy were promptly dropped.  USAA will no longer insure them.

USAA won't give any special treatment. They will act just like all the other insurance companies. If there is a dispute, they hire the same defense lawyers, who use the same tactics. Buying insurance is necessary. But, thinking your insurance company is your friend or somehow going to treat you better than another is just not realistic.

Loren Ver

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #120 on: July 12, 2021, 01:31:33 PM »
No, I don't see them as a friend.  They are a company and their job is to provide insurance (and make money).  They have a reputation of sticking by the product they are providing.  I have had friends that have insurance with other companies that have hemmed and hawed about paying out what is owned by the contact signed.  Not something you need after an accident.  USAA has not done that to anyone I know personally that has used them, and their reputation is that they generally don't do that to people (they come out highly rated for an insurance company).   

I was warned by my dad when I was young that they would dropped my like a hot potato if I became too expense to insure (since it is their job to make money, and they only insure people that fit that cost-benefit model).  That seems to be what another posters family found out after their accident when they couldn't renew.  But USAA paid out until that point, as they should have.

LV

iris lily

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #121 on: July 12, 2021, 06:15:10 PM »
DH and I have been going back and forth on umbrella for a while too.  Most of our assets are not in protected forms so they should be protected, but the cost for us isn't as cheap as others are finding and how it protects we find off putting.

Cost:
1 million for us is about 440 per year and that covers liability and non/underinsured motorists (they are required to both be equal or the motorist to be denied). 

2 million goes up to 660 per year. 

We have never had a car accident, no tickets, good credit, no kids, no previous litigation etc.  I think our issue is also that we have 2 drivers and three cars, even though we don't drive much (FIREd).

How it protects:

As someone else stated, we aren't sure how much to buy since buying up to networth makes no sense.  You don't need your networth protected, you need the amount you can likely be sued for plus one dollar.  I have no idea what that number is.  If we got the 1 million policy and someone sued us for 1.5 million and the insurance paid the million, that 500,000 would still crash the stash.  So now you need 2 million coverage.  But if you are sued for 2.5 million, same problem. 

So what are the likelihoods of actually being sued (or damaged by under/non- insured) in values in excess of the more standard 300,000/500,000?  And if lawyers are only targeting insurance limits, why pay for more than that?  That's pretty reasonable coverage?

I feel like I am lacking a graph or table with which to help me make an informed decision based on actual data.

I have umbrella i surance

I keep wads  of $$$ only in financial institutions  that insure  the account up to $100,000.

All of my houses are paid off, I own them free and clear.

All of this is to provide me sleep at night. No charts necessary, wouldnt change my mind.

DaMa

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #122 on: July 13, 2021, 07:42:56 AM »

USAA won't give any special treatment. They will act just like all the other insurance companies. If there is a dispute, they hire the same defense lawyers, who use the same tactics. Buying insurance is necessary. But, thinking your insurance company is your friend or somehow going to treat you better than another is just not realistic.

I worked in health insurance, and I advise people that insurance companies are in business to make money, not provide quality health care.  If the insurance companies are supporting it (i.e. legislation), then you should assume it's not good for you.

I really appreciate this thread.  In Michigan, you are covered by your own policy (no-fault), so I don't understand the need for uninsured motorist coverage.  My policy will pay me, not the other person's.

Hvillian

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #123 on: July 14, 2021, 12:14:16 PM »
One more USAA data point . . . Our $2M policy is $272 per year.  Two Cars/Drivers and Three houses covered.

However, I'm thinking it may not include coverage for uninsured / underinsured though, going to check on that. The website says coverage is for:  Personal Liability - protection if someone makes a claim or files a suit against you (or someone covered by the policy) for accidental bodily injury or property damage and the cost to defend any such claims or suits against you.

Overall very interesting discussing.  Thank you all, especially FIREby35.


ETA:  Umbrella policy does NOT cover uninsured/underinsured; "This policy provides no uninsured motorists coverage, underinsured motorists coverage, auto no-fault coverage or medical payments coverage."    Coverage for that still appears to be at the Auto Policy limits of $300,000/500,000 per person/per accident.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2021, 12:24:41 PM by Hvillian »

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #124 on: July 23, 2021, 12:59:49 PM »
There has been a lot of good discussion on here about including uninsured motorist coverage and the like, but I'm curious what do people here that have umbrella insurance look for in it besides that. By this, I mean, what specifically do you look for wording wise or specifics wise that it covers that you checked for before you got it. I realize this is probably an igorant question, but I am considering getting some for general liability protection but don't want to buy something missing obvious aspects that need to be insured or something like that. I may also be overthinking it, and if so, I would be grateful to hear and know that.

elysianfields

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #125 on: August 04, 2021, 10:33:14 PM »

I keep wads  of $$$ only in financial institutions  that insure  the account up to $100,000.


@iris lily you should check around, the FDIC raised its insurance limits some time back to $250k per depositor per institution per ownership type.

iris lily

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #126 on: August 04, 2021, 10:44:44 PM »

I keep wads  of $$$ only in financial institutions  that insure  the account up to $100,000.


@iris lily you should check around, the FDIC raised its insurance limits some time back to $250k per depositor per institution per ownership type.
You are right, and I think DH made that clear. I just dorgot the “new” limits.

Dr Kidstache

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #127 on: January 17, 2022, 03:18:56 PM »
This thread is really helpful!  I'm just buying umbrella insurance for the first time in a while and I definitely didn't know to ask about UM/UIM coverage. I felt much more confident reviewing the options my insurance broker gave me.

RedmondStash

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #128 on: January 18, 2022, 11:48:10 AM »
Great thread. Many thanks to everyone who shared their experience and knowledge. Very helpful.

It may be time to have a chat with our insurance company about the specifics of our coverage, so I'll understand better what they will and won't pay for.

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #129 on: January 18, 2022, 11:56:52 AM »
I'm catching up.  Something Paul and Seattle brought up a while back that I feel was never clarified.  All this concern over UM/UIM coverage in the umbrella policy seems to imply that people assume if something happens to them it's not going to be their fault.  What happens if it IS your fault?  Then you're fucked, but that's ok because you deserve it, because it was your fault?  Wouldn't it be better to put all this mental effort and insurance into something that covers you regardless of fault, and then the UM/UIM part is irrelevant?

Paul der Krake

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #130 on: January 18, 2022, 12:12:08 PM »
I'm catching up.  Something Paul and Seattle brought up a while back that I feel was never clarified.  All this concern over UM/UIM coverage in the umbrella policy seems to imply that people assume if something happens to them it's not going to be their fault.  What happens if it IS your fault?  Then you're fucked, but that's ok because you deserve it, because it was your fault?  Wouldn't it be better to put all this mental effort and insurance into something that covers you regardless of fault, and then the UM/UIM part is irrelevant?
I can't sue myself for millions of dollars.

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #131 on: January 18, 2022, 12:18:49 PM »
I'm catching up.  Something Paul and Seattle brought up a while back that I feel was never clarified.  All this concern over UM/UIM coverage in the umbrella policy seems to imply that people assume if something happens to them it's not going to be their fault.  What happens if it IS your fault?  Then you're fucked, but that's ok because you deserve it, because it was your fault?  Wouldn't it be better to put all this mental effort and insurance into something that covers you regardless of fault, and then the UM/UIM part is irrelevant?
I can't sue myself for millions of dollars.

No but you can injure yourself for millions of dollars.  And the UM/UIM isn't about getting sued/suing.  It's about covering yourself for your own injuries.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #132 on: January 18, 2022, 12:38:16 PM »
I'm catching up.  Something Paul and Seattle brought up a while back that I feel was never clarified.  All this concern over UM/UIM coverage in the umbrella policy seems to imply that people assume if something happens to them it's not going to be their fault.  What happens if it IS your fault?  Then you're fucked, but that's ok because you deserve it, because it was your fault?  Wouldn't it be better to put all this mental effort and insurance into something that covers you regardless of fault, and then the UM/UIM part is irrelevant?
I can't sue myself for millions of dollars.

No but you can injure yourself for millions of dollars.  And the UM/UIM isn't about getting sued/suing.  It's about covering yourself for your own injuries.

Exactly. That's why I personally don't advocate for UIM coverage. You can get injured by an uninsured motorist, yes. You can also injure yourself misjudging a curve and driving off a cliff. Do you need to be paid more in the former case than the latter? I sure don't think so. UIM coverage is for people who feel differently.

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #133 on: January 18, 2022, 12:49:39 PM »
I'm catching up.  Something Paul and Seattle brought up a while back that I feel was never clarified.  All this concern over UM/UIM coverage in the umbrella policy seems to imply that people assume if something happens to them it's not going to be their fault.  What happens if it IS your fault?  Then you're fucked, but that's ok because you deserve it, because it was your fault?  Wouldn't it be better to put all this mental effort and insurance into something that covers you regardless of fault, and then the UM/UIM part is irrelevant?
I can't sue myself for millions of dollars.

No but you can injure yourself for millions of dollars.  And the UM/UIM isn't about getting sued/suing.  It's about covering yourself for your own injuries.

Exactly. That's why I personally don't advocate for UIM coverage. You can get injured by an uninsured motorist, yes. You can also injure yourself misjudging a curve and driving off a cliff. Do you need to be paid more in the former case than the latter? I sure don't think so. UIM coverage is for people who feel differently.

Is there data around severe medical bills and how often it's someone else's fault and either they cover you, or you would be otherwise covered by UM/UIM insurance?  I assume most cases fall outside of that circle (but maybe not?).  For all the data analysis we do here, I feel like this one is a reaction based on emotion.  "Other people are crazy and they're likely to seriously injure me!  But I'm rational and don't do dangerous things and am unlikely to injure myself.  So therefore I need maximum coverage against others, while I ignore the gaping hole in my coverage on if it were actually my fault (or no one's fault)."

seattlecyclone

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #134 on: January 18, 2022, 01:02:29 PM »
Insurance companies surely have this data, and they're not terribly interested in sharing it. You could probably get a reasonable ballpark estimate by comparing the premiums for liability coverage vs. UIM coverage. For me personally the relative likelihood is mostly irrelevant. Injury from an uninsured motorist is a common enough occurrence that it makes sense to have insurance for it. Injury from a circumstance where you're personally at fault and would therefore not be covered by anyone's liability or UIM coverage is also common enough to be worth insuring against: for this you need some level of disability and health insurance. If you have sufficient disability and health insurance to be okay when you hurt yourself, another insurance policy to pay you even more when someone else injures you just seems superfluous to me. Others clearly disagree.

Dr Kidstache

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #135 on: January 18, 2022, 01:34:42 PM »
Insurance companies surely have this data, and they're not terribly interested in sharing it. You could probably get a reasonable ballpark estimate by comparing the premiums for liability coverage vs. UIM coverage. For me personally the relative likelihood is mostly irrelevant. Injury from an uninsured motorist is a common enough occurrence that it makes sense to have insurance for it. Injury from a circumstance where you're personally at fault and would therefore not be covered by anyone's liability or UIM coverage is also common enough to be worth insuring against: for this you need some level of disability and health insurance. If you have sufficient disability and health insurance to be okay when you hurt yourself, another insurance policy to pay you even more when someone else injures you just seems superfluous to me. Others clearly disagree.

I think there's definitely an emotional aspect in my coverage decision making. I've already had to rely on my disability insurance from a freak accident. I've also had 5-digits of necessary medical care that wasn't covered by my health insurance. I'm definitely more likely to over-insure because of my prior experiences. 

Paul der Krake

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #136 on: January 18, 2022, 02:01:04 PM »
I'm catching up.  Something Paul and Seattle brought up a while back that I feel was never clarified.  All this concern over UM/UIM coverage in the umbrella policy seems to imply that people assume if something happens to them it's not going to be their fault.  What happens if it IS your fault?  Then you're fucked, but that's ok because you deserve it, because it was your fault?  Wouldn't it be better to put all this mental effort and insurance into something that covers you regardless of fault, and then the UM/UIM part is irrelevant?
I can't sue myself for millions of dollars.

No but you can injure yourself for millions of dollars.  And the UM/UIM isn't about getting sued/suing.  It's about covering yourself for your own injuries.
Sure, but this is why I have broad health insurance, and disability insurance (everyone who pays into Social Security does too). I am happy with the amount of coverage this gives me.

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #137 on: January 18, 2022, 02:11:13 PM »
If you have sufficient disability and health insurance to be okay when you hurt yourself, another insurance policy to pay you even more when someone else injures you just seems superfluous to me. Others clearly disagree.

No but you can injure yourself for millions of dollars.  And the UM/UIM isn't about getting sued/suing.  It's about covering yourself for your own injuries.
Sure, but this is why I have broad health insurance, and disability insurance (everyone who pays into Social Security does too). I am happy with the amount of coverage this gives me.

These are what I'm getting at.  If you have good health and disability that will cover you if you get injured at no fault of someone else, then why such a fuss over UM/UIM?  Mostly asking others that are concerned about it.

RedmondStash

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #138 on: January 18, 2022, 02:42:46 PM »
If you have sufficient disability and health insurance to be okay when you hurt yourself, another insurance policy to pay you even more when someone else injures you just seems superfluous to me. Others clearly disagree.

No but you can injure yourself for millions of dollars.  And the UM/UIM isn't about getting sued/suing.  It's about covering yourself for your own injuries.
Sure, but this is why I have broad health insurance, and disability insurance (everyone who pays into Social Security does too). I am happy with the amount of coverage this gives me.

These are what I'm getting at.  If you have good health and disability that will cover you if you get injured at no fault of someone else, then why such a fuss over UM/UIM?  Mostly asking others that are concerned about it.

For myself, it's because I know my entire stash could be wiped out by medical bills, whether I'm at fault for my injuries or not. UI/UIM doesn't cover all possibilities, but it mitigates one part of the risk for catastrophically high medical bills.

It's really about the U.S.'s broken, opaque, and astronomically expensive health care system, especially knowing that even good health insurance won't save you from destitution in some situations. Unexpected high medical bills are the one area that worries me in retirement.

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #139 on: January 18, 2022, 03:01:45 PM »
These are what I'm getting at.  If you have good health and disability that will cover you if you get injured at no fault of someone else, then why such a fuss over UM/UIM?  Mostly asking others that are concerned about it.

For myself, it's because I know my entire stash could be wiped out by medical bills, whether I'm at fault for my injuries or not. UI/UIM doesn't cover all possibilities, but it mitigates one part of the risk for catastrophically high medical bills.

It's really about the U.S.'s broken, opaque, and astronomically expensive health care system, especially knowing that even good health insurance won't save you from destitution in some situations. Unexpected high medical bills are the one area that worries me in retirement.

I guess this is the question.  Is there an affordable solution to the problem for if it's not someone else's fault...  or can we only covering one small use-case(someone else's fault), and we're f'd on the others (our fault, or no fault, or an uncovered-circumstance).

RedmondStash

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #140 on: January 18, 2022, 04:58:32 PM »
These are what I'm getting at.  If you have good health and disability that will cover you if you get injured at no fault of someone else, then why such a fuss over UM/UIM?  Mostly asking others that are concerned about it.

For myself, it's because I know my entire stash could be wiped out by medical bills, whether I'm at fault for my injuries or not. UI/UIM doesn't cover all possibilities, but it mitigates one part of the risk for catastrophically high medical bills.

It's really about the U.S.'s broken, opaque, and astronomically expensive health care system, especially knowing that even good health insurance won't save you from destitution in some situations. Unexpected high medical bills are the one area that worries me in retirement.

I guess this is the question.  Is there an affordable solution to the problem for if it's not someone else's fault...  or can we only covering one small use-case(someone else's fault), and we're f'd on the others (our fault, or no fault, or an uncovered-circumstance).

It's a good question. I wish I knew the answer. Maybe medical tourism in a country with lower-cost health care? This is why we need health-care reform -- and until that happens, the risk of being wiped out by unexpected medical expenses remains.

This is one reason I'm padding my stash beyond the 4% SWR. I'm old enough to have had enough medical issues that I have no illusions about my personal indestructibility -- or that exercise and eating right will shield me from health problems.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #141 on: January 18, 2022, 05:54:32 PM »
These are what I'm getting at.  If you have good health and disability that will cover you if you get injured at no fault of someone else, then why such a fuss over UM/UIM?  Mostly asking others that are concerned about it.

For myself, it's because I know my entire stash could be wiped out by medical bills, whether I'm at fault for my injuries or not. UI/UIM doesn't cover all possibilities, but it mitigates one part of the risk for catastrophically high medical bills.

It's really about the U.S.'s broken, opaque, and astronomically expensive health care system, especially knowing that even good health insurance won't save you from destitution in some situations. Unexpected high medical bills are the one area that worries me in retirement.

I guess this is the question.  Is there an affordable solution to the problem for if it's not someone else's fault...  or can we only covering one small use-case(someone else's fault), and we're f'd on the others (our fault, or no fault, or an uncovered-circumstance).
Oh I see what you mean now, and I agree with your assessment.

I think it boils down to the perceived unfairness of someone else fucking you up.

DaTrill

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #142 on: January 18, 2022, 10:29:51 PM »
Every state is going to be different as each state has their own insurance board.  Higher litigious/more lenient courts are going to result in higher and more difficult to get premiums.  In red/rural areas, Coverage can be $100 +$10 per million/year.  In blue urban areas, coverage might cost $1000 per million up to a low cap, but one can always go to AIG or Lloyds for a syndicate umbrella. 

For individuals that do not own a business or high-profile person $1 mil is sufficient.  Business owners should be 2x-3x value of business and high-profile people need a broker split up the exposure over several insurance companies.

I carry $1,000,000, might bump it up in the future.         

Paul der Krake

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #143 on: January 18, 2022, 11:18:04 PM »
In red/rural areas, Coverage can be $100 +$10 per million/year.  In blue urban areas, coverage might cost $1000 per million up to a low cap, but one can always go to AIG or Lloyds for a syndicate umbrella. 
I've now carried umbrella insurance in 3 über-blue, über-urban insurance markets in 3 different states: San Francisco, Seattle, and Honolulu. It's never been anywhere near $1,000. More like $150. Where are you seeing those premiums?

elysianfields

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #144 on: January 19, 2022, 01:11:33 AM »

2. The milking phenomenon is a part of any hourly paid legal service. It's really unavoidable. What's interesting, to me, is how the insurance companies do successfully negotiate for very low hourly rates in my town. There are plenty of lawyers ready to get on the corporate gravy train. But, the idea that insurance defense lawyers are prestigious is laughable. Most of the time they are nothing but low-level pawns taking orders from insurance adjusters. They may parade around town as "Corporate lawyers" but they have no power. Of course, there are exceptions to this generalization. But, I hardly bother talking to my opposing lawyers until we begin preparing the case for trial bc that lawyer has to get permission from the insurance adjuster for everything.

...

PS: I don't have to "set up" insurance companies to commit bad-faith. They do it on their own. When they get caught they say, "Hey, you set me up!" lol.

Sorry I'm only now catching up on this.

I'm not an attorney and don't play one on TV, and @FIREby35 is completely correct about this.

DW & I were once involved in litigation over an automobile accident.  The other (negligent) party never appeared for anything, but his insurance company's attorney represented him.  The dispute concerned ~$2000 in damage to our 10 year-old vehicle, so we were pro se.  The attorney kept pestering us to settle, including sending us a fax for 1/2 the amount the night before trial, but since we were pro se, we went all the way - we wanted those bastards to pay.  After we won a full judgment, he bitched about his client and about [insurance co] forcing him to waste his time on such a piddling amount, and said [insurance co] wouldn't contest further.  He also implied that I had a friend help write our pleading, which I corrected.  We got the check the next day, leaving me to reflect what happens to less eloquent writers and less educated drivers whose cars are totaled.

I later crossed paths with a Diplomatic Courier, a retired attorney who had toiled for one of the big auto insurance companies, and I related this experience.  He said, yeah, that's typical.  I would often tell my supervisors, the other side will take us to a jury, and they'll say this and show that and demonstrate the other, and they'll win.  And the supervisors would say, we don't care, go defend us at trial anyway.  And despite my best efforts, we'd always lose exactly the way I predicted.

Why did they insist, I asked.

Because underwriting's job is to write policies, and claims' job is to avoid paying claims, and the left and right hand don't much communicate, he responded.

He was much happier in his job as a Diplomatic Courier, methinks, than working as an attorney for [insurance co.].

This reminds me, I need to renew my umbrella coverage.  Apologies for the derail.

DadJokes

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #145 on: January 19, 2022, 06:00:51 AM »
Regarding UIM, I got this from a Forbes article:

Quote
Do you have other insurance to cover car accident injuries? The primary function of uninsured motorist coverage is to pay medical bills after a car accident with an uninsured driver. If you have good health insurance, you may not feel you need UM coverage. But if you have a high deductible health plan and would pay a large amount of money for a hospitalization, UM might be attractive.

UM is a way to cover car accident injuries without paying co-insurance, copays and health insurance deductibles. UM also provides some benefits that health insurance won’t, like money for pain and suffering and lost wages.

The average claim payment for UM for injuries is $29,825, according to the National Association of Insurance Commissioners’ most recent report.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #146 on: January 19, 2022, 01:44:20 PM »
Regarding UIM, I got this from a Forbes article:

Quote
Do you have other insurance to cover car accident injuries? The primary function of uninsured motorist coverage is to pay medical bills after a car accident with an uninsured driver. If you have good health insurance, you may not feel you need UM coverage. But if you have a high deductible health plan and would pay a large amount of money for a hospitalization, UM might be attractive.

UM is a way to cover car accident injuries without paying co-insurance, copays and health insurance deductibles. UM also provides some benefits that health insurance won’t, like money for pain and suffering and lost wages.

The average claim payment for UM for injuries is $29,825, according to the National Association of Insurance Commissioners’ most recent report.

Yes, everything about that is factually correct. They correctly identify that many people have insufficient health and disability insurance, and correctly identify that UIM coverage can help remedy that deficiency for the specific case where you get hurt by an underinsured motorist. What they fail to discuss is that if your medical deductibles are higher than you can afford when you get hit by an underinsured motorist, UIM insurance doesn't fix the fact that your deductible will still be unaffordable when you crash your own car, or when you get cancer, or any number of other things that could be medically very expensive.

Perhaps if you get health insurance through your employer and all their options are terrible, papering over that problem with special-purpose supplemental insurance such as UIM is the best you can do. But if you have the option to take that money you would have spent on UIM and instead put it toward better health or disability insurance, that's probably the better play.

DaTrill

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #147 on: January 19, 2022, 06:28:15 PM »
In red/rural areas, Coverage can be $100 +$10 per million/year.  In blue urban areas, coverage might cost $1000 per million up to a low cap, but one can always go to AIG or Lloyds for a syndicate umbrella. 
I've now carried umbrella insurance in 3 über-blue, über-urban insurance markets in 3 different states: San Francisco, Seattle, and Honolulu. It's never been anywhere near $1,000. More like $150. Where are you seeing those premiums?

New policies vs established client.  If a client has been with XYZ insurance company for 20 years with no or minimal number of claims, umbrella will be cheap, regardless of location.  If a new client in lenient/blue state asks for umbrella, cost will reflect the risk as cost of claims are higher.  Within states, premiums can be different depending on zip code based on how courts are designed.       

obstinate

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #148 on: January 19, 2022, 09:43:27 PM »
In blue urban areas, coverage might cost $1000 per million up to a low cap, but one can always go to AIG or Lloyds for a syndicate umbrella. 
FWIW, I live in the bluest of the blue areas, in the heart of a big, high cost of living city. I carry $10M of umbrella coverage and it is $800 per year, including $1M of underinsured motorist coverage. This is via Nationwide and this is our first year on this policy, although we previously had a policy of the same magnitude with AIG.

2sk22

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Re: Umbrella Insurance
« Reply #149 on: January 20, 2022, 02:50:42 AM »
In blue urban areas, coverage might cost $1000 per million up to a low cap, but one can always go to AIG or Lloyds for a syndicate umbrella. 
FWIW, I live in the bluest of the blue areas, in the heart of a big, high cost of living city. I carry $10M of umbrella coverage and it is $800 per year, including $1M of underinsured motorist coverage. This is via Nationwide and this is our first year on this policy, although we previously had a policy of the same magnitude with AIG.

Hmm - I pay $938 for $2M umbrella coverage in NJ. Its probably because I have a daughter under the age of 25 on my car insurance.