Side Hustle: Reselling tickets for profit?

[GuitarStv]

There wouldn't be a problem with scalpers if people were level-headed and didn't pay absurd prices for tickets.

Those who complain about scalpers have one person to point to - and it's looking right back at them in the mirror.

For an awful lot of people, the rush of scalpers grabbing tickets the moment an event opens means that the cheaper seats simply are no longer available.  This likely disproportionally negatively impacts the people on this forum, who are more likely to be trying to get those less expensive seats.

I have zero desire to be herded like cattle to sporting events, concerts, or any other public gathering where you pay for over-priced food / drinks / parking.

Well, at least this explains why you don't care about scalpers.

[Dollar Slice]

There wouldn't be a problem with scalpers if people were level-headed and didn't pay absurd prices for tickets.

Those who complain about scalpers have one person to point to - and it's looking right back at them in the mirror.

I don't think you understand how this works. The people who are complaining about scalpers are the ones who don't get to go to the events at all because of scalpers. We're not buying FROM scalpers. We're sitting home hating them because they used bots to prevent us from getting tickets to an event we were excited to attend.

I'll also note that some people think music is "entertainment," and some people think music is "art." And some people think "art" is a very important part of a fulfilling life, and some people think "art" is a silly waste of time. You can pretty easily figure out where scalpers and their haters lie on that Venn diagram.

[GuitarStv]

It seems some people don't like capitalism.  Perhaps we should close all retail stores (where they buy at one price and resale at a higher price).

Goodness. Okay.

With retail, you're paying for several valuable things on top of the item you purchase. You're paying for the retailer's convenient retail location. You're paying for their relationship with distributors, and for their logistical ability to get the product you like from its point of manufacturing, to the retail location. You're paying for the knowledge of the employees who can help direct you to which product will work best for your need. You're paying for the retailer's economies of scale. i.e., it is cheaper for them to order 1,000 widgets and ship it to their retail outlet than it is for you to buy one widget and ship it to your home.

With scalping, you're paying for the guy who was in front of you in line to turn around and hand you a ticket that he had no interest in to begin with.

Or, increasingly, you're paying the guy/bot who won the F5 raffle.

Retail undeniable creates value for everyone involved, at every level. The world would be a universally better place without career scalpers.

+1 on pretty much every point here.  People who scalp tickets are dicks.

this is incorrect.  when i buy group tickets to a game i can buy them cheaper than single game tickets, i also dont have to pay any fees when i buy tickets.  Now thanks to dynamic pricing that most MLB teams use i can then sell those tickets cheaper than the team is usually selling them for closer to the day of the game.  therefore providing value to the team b/c they sold tickets earlier, and to the fan who can get a ticket cheaper than the team is currently selling them for and without added fees.  you can add value scalping but i guess you could personally attack everyone who posted here and saying they do this and call them all dicks.

Fair enough, I stand corrected.  People who scalp tickets are dicks to everyone except the rich assholes who wait until the last second to buy for their event.

Seriously, seems like you didn't even read what the prior poster wrote, since they said they were reselling for less than the team itself.

I'm not sure that you fully understand what he's doing.  He's removing a block of tickets from the market when they're cheap, then waiting until no more inexpensive tickets are available, then selling them to those able to afford his inflated prices.  This effectively cuts out people who aren't willing to pay an exorbitant amount for tickets.

And let's be honest, all we are talking about is tickets to events that have nothing but entertainment value. It's not like folks here are buying up all the water and selling it at inflated prices to people dying of dehydration. It you can't go see U2 or some NFL game because the tickets are too pricey, then oh well...

Well sure . . . if these events aren't important to you, I can see why you are OK with the actions of scalpers.

[seattlecyclone]

For an awful lot of people, the rush of scalpers grabbing tickets the moment an event opens means that the cheaper seats simply are no longer available.

This is false. The seats are available, they're just being sold for a market clearing price rather than a lower price. The same number of people get to go to the show whether or not resellers exist. With resellers, the people who are willing to pay the most get to attend. Without resellers, whoever showed up at the box office first gets to attend. Why should ability to wait in line be the determining factor rather moreso than ability to pay?

There wouldn't be a problem with scalpers if people were level-headed and didn't pay absurd prices for tickets.

Those who complain about scalpers have one person to point to - and it's looking right back at them in the mirror.

I don't think you understand how this works. The people who are complaining about scalpers are the ones who don't get to go to the events at all because of scalpers.

There's only so many seats. For every person who doesn't get to go because they don't value the experience enough to pay the prices the resellers are charging, there's another person who only gets to go because the reseller got there first to make that seat available to someone willing and able to pay more than face value.

Yes, this explicitly prioritizes people with wealth over people without. It's bad for people who know the value of a dollar, because they'll choose to attend these events less often. How is this different from any other industry though? We Mustachians might drool over the new iPhone, but choose not to buy one because we don't think any cell phone will bring us $800 worth of additional happiness compared to a $200 mid-range Android device. Same goes for music; we might love to see a superstar in concert, but if the ticket costs $200 we might choose to see a less well-known artist for $20 and end up happier for having done so.

[GuitarStv]

For an awful lot of people, the rush of scalpers grabbing tickets the moment an event opens means that the cheaper seats simply are no longer available.

This is false. The seats are available, they're just being sold for a market clearing price rather than a lower price. The same number of people get to go to the show whether or not resellers exist. With resellers, the people who are willing to pay the most get to attend. Without resellers, whoever showed up at the box office first gets to attend. Why should ability to wait in line be the determining factor rather moreso than ability to pay?

Because that's what the fans and the people producing the music both want.

There wouldn't be a problem with scalpers if people were level-headed and didn't pay absurd prices for tickets.

Those who complain about scalpers have one person to point to - and it's looking right back at them in the mirror.

I don't think you understand how this works. The people who are complaining about scalpers are the ones who don't get to go to the events at all because of scalpers.

There's only so many seats. For every person who doesn't get to go because they don't value the experience enough to pay the prices the resellers are charging, there's another person who only gets to go because the reseller got there first to make that seat available to someone willing and able to pay more than face value.

Yes, this explicitly prioritizes people with wealth over people without. It's bad for people who know the value of a dollar, because they'll choose to attend these events less often. How is this different from any other industry though? We Mustachians might drool over the new iPhone, but choose not to buy one because we don't think any cell phone will bring us $800 worth of additional happiness compared to a $200 mid-range Android device. Same goes for music; we might love to see a superstar in concert, but if the ticket costs $200 we might choose to see a less well-known artist for $20 and end up happier for having done so.

It's totally different than any other industry because of the limited supply and the one time opportunity.

Scalping tickets is like someone going out and buying every type of cellphone that can be had for under 500$, then reselling them for 800$ and telling everyone that this is doing them a big favour because they don't have to fork over a grand for Apple's most expensive phone.

Don't get me wrong . . . you're free to do whatever you want.  But I'm free to call you an asshole when you behave like one by scalping tickets.

[mathlete]

There's only so many seats. For every person who doesn't get to go because they don't value the experience enough to pay the prices the resellers are charging, there's another person who only gets to go because the reseller got there first to make that seat available to someone willing and able to pay more than face value.

This is a description of a zero sum game. Making money by taking opportunity from one person and selling it to another. Zero value added. Hence why scalpers shall be described as "enemies of fun".

[Pizzabrewer]

Yes it is dickish but I've been known occasionally to do a dickish thing.

A number of years ago I was (mostly) unemployed and lived in a small East Coast market where bands would play a "tuneup" show before launching their tour.  At the time the arena allowed you to camp out for tickets.  I was first in line for Elton John (first concert he'd played with his full band in 2 years), Simon and Garfunkel (same idea only much longer hiatus), AC/DC.  The ticket window saved 6 front row seats for the first person in line.  A friend of a friend knew a local rich business owner who would buy anything I could get.

So I was in the front row for all these shows and profited a few $100 for each.  To make matters better, I also won a call-in radio contest for 2 more front row seats to the Elton John show.  So I had 8 of the 48 front row seats.  I can brag, right?

Sadly the arena switched to a lottery system to eliminate people camping out.  The camping was a blast, we hung out with fans for days.  I usually started camping on Wednesday for a Saturday ticket sale.

[patchyfacialhair]

Scalpers are the worst. They don't add any value and complicate what should be a simple transaction. I deal with their nonsense every time my favorite band comes into town. Since they're very popular, buying tickets is always a nightmare. And I just want the cheap seats!

I'd argue that it's not the same if someone cornered the market on fidget spinners and re-sold them for multiples what the face value was. Fidget spinners can always be produced. A live event is something that occurs once and may never occur again in the same location.

I see what a lot of you are saying, but I respectfully disagree with the pro-scalping crowd.

[NoVa]

I think some people are talking past each other. My opinion: there is a vast difference between having spare season tickets you won't use/camping out for days to buy 6 tickets OR having a bot program scoop up several hundred tickets the instant tickets go on sale online.

[Davnasty]

With scalping, you're paying for the guy who was in front of you in line to turn around and hand you a ticket that he had no interest in to begin with.

I was struck by this quote and how much emotion seems to play in the analysis.  How is this statement really different from the credit card reward/travel hacking that is so highly lauded on this forum (and which I do)?

Person buys credit card only for reward bonus knowing that the bonus is intended to get person to be a long-term user of the card.  Bonus is clearly worth way more than person's use of the card just to get the bonus.  Bank loses money for no reason other than person seeking credit card reward decided to take advantage of the system.  Bank then likely gets that money back by charging all other users higher interest rates or fees.

What's the difference?  Especially if one then adds people doing manufactured spending to get the bonuses?  There is zero value added by the people doing the credit card reward hacking.

At a gut level, I don't like the scalpers either.  But your statement made me realize that the model is not that different from the credit card hacking, so why do we feel so differently about that?  Because the bank "deserves" it?

Just a note.  Carry on.

I would agree with this analysis in the sense that you are adding nothing of value and that it may be somewhat immoral. However I would disagree that CC churners increase costs to other consumers. In theory CC companies aim to set their fees at the point that maximizes profit, they don't just up their fees a little to make up for the rewards handed out to churners.

In other words, their fees/rates are set to a point that gives them the best returns. CC churners take a little chunk of that profit that has already been set by the market. Admittedly, this equation may be more complicated than theory can explain but this is my best understanding of it.

[jtraggie99]

Interesting thread.  Frankly, I do not have a strong opinion one way or the other.  It's a free market.  If people refused to pay inflated prices then scalpers would go out of business, simple as that.  Something is only worth what people are willing to pay for it, scalpers do not control the prices, the buyers do. 

I do find it funny that some people describe scalpers as immoral (what exactly is immoral?), and that somehow people that can afford and are willing to pay inflated prices are not true fans. 

[boarder42]

It seems some people don't like capitalism.  Perhaps we should close all retail stores (where they buy at one price and resale at a higher price).

Goodness. Okay.

With retail, you're paying for several valuable things on top of the item you purchase. You're paying for the retailer's convenient retail location. You're paying for their relationship with distributors, and for their logistical ability to get the product you like from its point of manufacturing, to the retail location. You're paying for the knowledge of the employees who can help direct you to which product will work best for your need. You're paying for the retailer's economies of scale. i.e., it is cheaper for them to order 1,000 widgets and ship it to their retail outlet than it is for you to buy one widget and ship it to your home.

With scalping, you're paying for the guy who was in front of you in line to turn around and hand you a ticket that he had no interest in to begin with.

Or, increasingly, you're paying the guy/bot who won the F5 raffle.

Retail undeniable creates value for everyone involved, at every level. The world would be a universally better place without career scalpers.

+1 on pretty much every point here.  People who scalp tickets are dicks.

this is incorrect.  when i buy group tickets to a game i can buy them cheaper than single game tickets, i also dont have to pay any fees when i buy tickets.  Now thanks to dynamic pricing that most MLB teams use i can then sell those tickets cheaper than the team is usually selling them for closer to the day of the game.  therefore providing value to the team b/c they sold tickets earlier, and to the fan who can get a ticket cheaper than the team is currently selling them for and without added fees.  you can add value scalping but i guess you could personally attack everyone who posted here and saying they do this and call them all dicks.

Fair enough, I stand corrected.  People who scalp tickets are dicks to everyone except the rich assholes who wait until the last second to buy for their event.

Seriously, seems like you didn't even read what the prior poster wrote, since they said they were reselling for less than the team itself.

I'm not sure that you fully understand what he's doing.  He's removing a block of tickets from the market when they're cheap, then waiting until no more inexpensive tickets are available, then selling them to those able to afford his inflated prices.  This effectively cuts out people who aren't willing to pay an exorbitant amount for tickets.

And let's be honest, all we are talking about is tickets to events that have nothing but entertainment value. It's not like folks here are buying up all the water and selling it at inflated prices to people dying of dehydration. It you can't go see U2 or some NFL game because the tickets are too pricey, then oh well...

Well sure . . . if these events aren't important to you, I can see why you are OK with the actions of scalpers.

NO guitar steve YOU dont get it.  MLB teams dynamically price tickets.  i'm not waiting for the cheap seats to sell out.  I'm buying up seats in bulk before the season starts to games i think will have a good draw.  So i can buy a ticket in march for 10 bucks for section 420 lets say.  then in july when the game is happening the team may have raised ticket prices for seats in that same section to 20-30 dollars plus fees or higher.  so i can sell my tickets in the same section where seats can be had from the team for 15-25 dollars with no extra fees creating a deal for the buyer.

[GuitarStv]

It seems some people don't like capitalism.  Perhaps we should close all retail stores (where they buy at one price and resale at a higher price).

Goodness. Okay.

With retail, you're paying for several valuable things on top of the item you purchase. You're paying for the retailer's convenient retail location. You're paying for their relationship with distributors, and for their logistical ability to get the product you like from its point of manufacturing, to the retail location. You're paying for the knowledge of the employees who can help direct you to which product will work best for your need. You're paying for the retailer's economies of scale. i.e., it is cheaper for them to order 1,000 widgets and ship it to their retail outlet than it is for you to buy one widget and ship it to your home.

With scalping, you're paying for the guy who was in front of you in line to turn around and hand you a ticket that he had no interest in to begin with.

Or, increasingly, you're paying the guy/bot who won the F5 raffle.

Retail undeniable creates value for everyone involved, at every level. The world would be a universally better place without career scalpers.

+1 on pretty much every point here.  People who scalp tickets are dicks.

this is incorrect.  when i buy group tickets to a game i can buy them cheaper than single game tickets, i also dont have to pay any fees when i buy tickets.  Now thanks to dynamic pricing that most MLB teams use i can then sell those tickets cheaper than the team is usually selling them for closer to the day of the game.  therefore providing value to the team b/c they sold tickets earlier, and to the fan who can get a ticket cheaper than the team is currently selling them for and without added fees.  you can add value scalping but i guess you could personally attack everyone who posted here and saying they do this and call them all dicks.

Fair enough, I stand corrected.  People who scalp tickets are dicks to everyone except the rich assholes who wait until the last second to buy for their event.

Seriously, seems like you didn't even read what the prior poster wrote, since they said they were reselling for less than the team itself.

I'm not sure that you fully understand what he's doing.  He's removing a block of tickets from the market when they're cheap, then waiting until no more inexpensive tickets are available, then selling them to those able to afford his inflated prices.  This effectively cuts out people who aren't willing to pay an exorbitant amount for tickets.

And let's be honest, all we are talking about is tickets to events that have nothing but entertainment value. It's not like folks here are buying up all the water and selling it at inflated prices to people dying of dehydration. It you can't go see U2 or some NFL game because the tickets are too pricey, then oh well...

Well sure . . . if these events aren't important to you, I can see why you are OK with the actions of scalpers.

NO guitar steve YOU dont get it.  MLB teams dynamically price tickets.  i'm not waiting for the cheap seats to sell out.  I'm buying up seats in bulk before the season starts to games i think will have a good draw.  So i can buy a ticket in march for 10 bucks for section 420 lets say.  then in july when the game is happening the team may have raised ticket prices for seats in that same section to 20-30 dollars plus fees or higher.  so i can sell my tickets in the same section where seats can be had from the team for 15-25 dollars with no extra fees creating a deal for the buyer.

I apologize.  If your selling isn't preventing people from being able to get event tickets at face value then I have no issue with your actions.

[mm1970]

There wouldn't be a problem with scalpers if people were level-headed and didn't pay absurd prices for tickets.

Those who complain about scalpers have one person to point to - and it's looking right back at them in the mirror.

I agree with the first part, but not so much about the second.

I mean, I'm complaining about scalpers, because - I think it would be fun to occasionally go on a nice date with my husband to see some band we listened to while we were first dating (like, Depeche Mode, for example).

But scalpers and bots made that impossible.  Sure, I'm fine paying $100 for a ticket, but $400?  No.  So I can look myself in the mirror just fine.

I think about that about a lot of things though - what is it worth it to me, and am I willing to get pulled in to the increasing costs as you get closer to the event.  I've gotten back into running in the last year, and have run some races (2 10ks and 2 half marathons).  I have an unofficial $6 per mile rule, though.  Meaning I don't want to pay more than $6 a mile.  I ran a race last year that was kind of fun (a mostly women's race, 5k/10k, and I did the 10k).  It was $25 because I registered early and it was the inaugural race.  Well, this year the starting cost was $32.  I wasn't sure I wanted to run it, so I didn't register.

The event is this week and the cost has climbed to $60.  Occasionally they will email me a discount of $8 (please come back!) but it expires at noon on the day they send it.  Sorry, no thanks!

I have a few friends running it though.   So, instead, I'm going to run from my house to the start (4.5 miles), and cheer on my friends.  And then bum a ride home.  Maybe run along the beach a little more to get in a full 10k, ha!

[Davnasty]

NO guitar steve YOU dont get it.  MLB teams dynamically price tickets.  i'm not waiting for the cheap seats to sell out.  I'm buying up seats in bulk before the season starts to games i think will have a good draw.  So i can buy a ticket in march for 10 bucks for section 420 lets say.  then in july when the game is happening the team may have raised ticket prices for seats in that same section to 20-30 dollars plus fees or higher.  so i can sell my tickets in the same section where seats can be had from the team for 15-25 dollars with no extra fees creating a deal for the buyer.

This is interesting, a way to scalp tickets and not be a dick :)

I know nothing about this dynamic pricing and your method other than what has been discussed here, but it sounds like you may be undermining the intentions of the MLB? Not that I care. Stick it to 'em.

I'm in the "event pricing has gotten out of hand and I don't really want to be around all those people and pay $10 for a beer anyway" crowd. If tickets were significantly cheaper my attitude might change as I do understand the atmosphere aspect of it, but I'd definitely sneak in my own booze.

[seattlecyclone]

NO guitar steve YOU dont get it.  MLB teams dynamically price tickets.  i'm not waiting for the cheap seats to sell out.  I'm buying up seats in bulk before the season starts to games i think will have a good draw.  So i can buy a ticket in march for 10 bucks for section 420 lets say.  then in july when the game is happening the team may have raised ticket prices for seats in that same section to 20-30 dollars plus fees or higher.  so i can sell my tickets in the same section where seats can be had from the team for 15-25 dollars with no extra fees creating a deal for the buyer.

This is interesting, a way to scalp tickets and not be a dick :)

I know nothing about this dynamic pricing and your method other than what has been discussed here, but it sounds like you may be undermining the intentions of the MLB? Not that I care. Stick it to 'em.

I doubt this is undermining the MLB's intentions. "Dynamic pricing" is just a fancy name for automatically adjusting the face value of unsold tickets in response to market conditions. As the game date approaches, they'll raise or lower the price of unsold tickets based on how fast the first few tickets sold at the original price. That way the seats sell for a market clearing price and most of the money goes to the team rather than resellers.

The only way to make money as a reseller under such a system is to consistently and correctly guess well in advance of the game that the team has underestimated the demand for tickets. If the team does a halfway-decent job of forecasting, this is hard to do! In this case most of the reselling would be from people who bought tickets for personal use and later decided they didn't want them anymore. This is the type of reselling that very few people seem to have any problem with.

The only reason reselling is such a phenomenon in music is because bands tend to do a rather terrible job of pricing their tickets. I wish they'd do better. For what it's worth I don't really like that middlemen are able to extract so much value from the event. I'd rather see the people putting on the show get this money. But if correct pricing just isn't on the table for whatever reason I tend to prefer the use of an aftermarket to correct the incorrect pricing rather than the use of technical means to enforce some sort of lottery giving the fastest actors access to the event even if they wouldn't be willing to pay as much as someone else.

[Valhalla]

There wouldn't be a problem with scalpers if people were level-headed and didn't pay absurd prices for tickets.

Those who complain about scalpers have one person to point to - and it's looking right back at them in the mirror.

I agree with the first part, but not so much about the second.

I mean, I'm complaining about scalpers, because - I think it would be fun to occasionally go on a nice date with my husband to see some band we listened to while we were first dating (like, Depeche Mode, for example).

But scalpers and bots made that impossible.  Sure, I'm fine paying $100 for a ticket, but $400?  No.  So I can look myself in the mirror just fine.

I think about that about a lot of things though - what is it worth it to me, and am I willing to get pulled in to the increasing costs as you get closer to the event.  I've gotten back into running in the last year, and have run some races (2 10ks and 2 half marathons).  I have an unofficial $6 per mile rule, though.  Meaning I don't want to pay more than $6 a mile.  I ran a race last year that was kind of fun (a mostly women's race, 5k/10k, and I did the 10k).  It was $25 because I registered early and it was the inaugural race.  Well, this year the starting cost was $32.  I wasn't sure I wanted to run it, so I didn't register.

The event is this week and the cost has climbed to $60.  Occasionally they will email me a discount of $8 (please come back!) but it expires at noon on the day they send it.  Sorry, no thanks!

I have a few friends running it though.   So, instead, I'm going to run from my house to the start (4.5 miles), and cheer on my friends.  And then bum a ride home.  Maybe run along the beach a little more to get in a full 10k, ha!

I look at it this way, the Scalpers just saved you from over-paying for an event you had some interest in going at regular prices, but not at highway robbery prices.

The whole ticketing scheme is scam anyway....http://www.hypebot.com/hypebot/2016/05/ticketmaster-settlement-called-new-scam-on-top-of-old-one.html  The excessive fees, the "resale" by Ticketmaster of good seats that they hold, etc.... you end up paying the scalpers or ticketmaster... to me they are one and the same.

Just avoid playing the whole game altogether, spend that money on something that won't be fee-ridden, scam ridden, like a very nice weekend trip, a nice cruise dinner, something that doesn't smell like "rip-off".

[Valhalla]

There wouldn't be a problem with scalpers if people were level-headed and didn't pay absurd prices for tickets.

Those who complain about scalpers have one person to point to - and it's looking right back at them in the mirror.

For an awful lot of people, the rush of scalpers grabbing tickets the moment an event opens means that the cheaper seats simply are no longer available.  This likely disproportionally negatively impacts the people on this forum, who are more likely to be trying to get those less expensive seats.

I have zero desire to be herded like cattle to sporting events, concerts, or any other public gathering where you pay for over-priced food / drinks / parking.

Well, at least this explains why you don't care about scalpers.

Again, if people refused to pay scalpers, then this rush of scalpers grabbing tickets would disappear.  If I can't get decent seats directly through the venue (which already charge excessive fees to begin with), then I don't go.  Simple as that.  Why get upset about it?  It's saving money and just good common sense.

[mathlete]

I would agree with this analysis in the sense that you are adding nothing of value and that it may be somewhat immoral. However I would disagree that CC churners increase costs to other consumers. In theory CC companies aim to set their fees at the point that maximizes profit, they don't just up their fees a little to make up for the rewards handed out to churners.

In other words, their fees/rates are set to a point that gives them the best returns. CC churners take a little chunk of that profit that has already been set by the market. Admittedly, this equation may be more complicated than theory can explain but this is my best understanding of it.

I think it is helpful to first look at the concept of credit cards holistically.

To the best of my understanding, here are all the parties involved:

The Merchant

ex. Wal Mart

What they give

Merchant transaction fees, payable to the card issuer and the credit card company.

What they get

A general increase in the the volume and the ease of commerce.
A competitive advantage over merchants that do that accept credit cards.

The Credit Card Company

What they give

The infrastructure through which transactions are processed.

What they get

Part of the merchant fee.
Fees from the card issuing bank, and the merchant's bank.
Data that can be anonymized and sold to marketers.

Card Issuer/Bank

What they give

Taking on default risk.
Fraud/purchase protection for the consumer.

What they get

Merchant fees.
Interest payments.
Ability to market more products and services to cardholders.

Cardholder

What they give

Card membership fees.
Interest payments.
Personal data.

What they get

Purchase protection.
Ability to buy without cash.

------------------------------

The above is a pretty clear win-win-win-win from my perspective. If we accept that, we can think about intro offers and card perks much more clearly. Instead of looking at it as one part of an extremely complex web, we can look at is as another feature of something we already accept as above board.

At this point, when a card issuer offers intro bonus points, it is basically a marketing expense. Chase is paying money to get more transactions, more cardholders, and more data into their ecosystem. They can't collect merchant fees on transactions that don't run through their card. They can't (easily) market more services to a consumer that they haven't established a relationship with.

Is the amount of business I generate for Chase worth the bonus offers I collect, given that I never pay them interest? That is probably unknowable. On the one side, we would stack up all of the bonus points I've earned. On the other side, we'd stack up all the card fees I've paid, merchant transactions fees I've generated, travel agent fees I've generated for Chase by booking through Ultimate Rewards, a fraction of the account activity generated by those who have used my referral code, etc.

[Valhalla]

There wouldn't be a problem with scalpers if people were level-headed and didn't pay absurd prices for tickets.

Those who complain about scalpers have one person to point to - and it's looking right back at them in the mirror.

I don't think you understand how this works. The people who are complaining about scalpers are the ones who don't get to go to the events at all because of scalpers. We're not buying FROM scalpers. We're sitting home hating them because they used bots to prevent us from getting tickets to an event we were excited to attend.

I'll also note that some people think music is "entertainment," and some people think music is "art." And some people think "art" is a very important part of a fulfilling life, and some people think "art" is a silly waste of time. You can pretty easily figure out where scalpers and their haters lie on that Venn diagram.

I don't hate scalpers, I hate fools who make scalpers rich and propagate the game.  You don't pay scalpers, they go away.

And no matter what I consider "art" or "entertainment", if there's scalping involved, count me out.  I would choose any other number of infinite activities where there is zero scalping.

Bottom line, I would refuse to pay for scalping no matter what.  If MMM had a conference for mustachians, and scalpers ended up buying tickets for the conference, I refuse to go.  Simple... rinse and repeat, and I enjoy my life much better, save money, and scalpers (hopefully) end up going broke.   I don't hate scalpers... they make my life choices very easy.

[boarder42]

NO guitar steve YOU dont get it.  MLB teams dynamically price tickets.  i'm not waiting for the cheap seats to sell out.  I'm buying up seats in bulk before the season starts to games i think will have a good draw.  So i can buy a ticket in march for 10 bucks for section 420 lets say.  then in july when the game is happening the team may have raised ticket prices for seats in that same section to 20-30 dollars plus fees or higher.  so i can sell my tickets in the same section where seats can be had from the team for 15-25 dollars with no extra fees creating a deal for the buyer.

This is interesting, a way to scalp tickets and not be a dick :)

I know nothing about this dynamic pricing and your method other than what has been discussed here, but it sounds like you may be undermining the intentions of the MLB? Not that I care. Stick it to 'em.

I'm in the "event pricing has gotten out of hand and I don't really want to be around all those people and pay $10 for a beer anyway" crowd. If tickets were significantly cheaper my attitude might change as I do understand the atmosphere aspect of it, but I'd definitely sneak in my own booze.

yes it has gotten out of hand.  i'm in the sneak in a drink too crowd.  and as far as sporting events go TV has gotten so good most of the time when i'm at a game i'm thinking i'd rather be sitting on my couch at home watching this. 

[mathlete]

NO guitar steve YOU dont get it.  MLB teams dynamically price tickets.  i'm not waiting for the cheap seats to sell out.  I'm buying up seats in bulk before the season starts to games i think will have a good draw.  So i can buy a ticket in march for 10 bucks for section 420 lets say.  then in july when the game is happening the team may have raised ticket prices for seats in that same section to 20-30 dollars plus fees or higher.  so i can sell my tickets in the same section where seats can be had from the team for 15-25 dollars with no extra fees creating a deal for the buyer.

Isn't it possible that the venue wouldn't have adjusted the ticked price up  by so much, had it not been for people buying early and sitting on tickets?

[GuitarStv]

The only reason reselling is such a phenomenon in music is because bands tend to do a rather terrible job of pricing their tickets. I wish they'd do better. For what it's worth I don't really like that middlemen are able to extract so much value from the event. I'd rather see the people putting on the show get this money. But if correct pricing just isn't on the table for whatever reason I tend to prefer the use of an aftermarket to correct the incorrect pricing rather than the use of technical means to enforce some sort of lottery giving the fastest actors access to the event even if they wouldn't be willing to pay as much as someone else.

You can claim that bands do a terrible job pricing their tickets.  That might be true from a narrow point of view - assuming that the goal of each band is to squeeze maximum profits from fans during a concert.  This is not really why most people write and perform music though.  A huge number of artists want their music to be accessible to everyone, not just the rich . . . and it's why so many have spoken out or done what they can to prevent ticket resales.  Letting scalpers prevent most people from attending a concert so that they can sell to the rich is not a way to 'correct the incorrect pricing'.

[seattlecyclone]

As much as the musicians may wish that they could operate outside of a capitalist market economy, they cannot. They can either choose to extract maximum profits from fans themselves, or they can let resellers do it.

[Dollar Slice]

As much as the musicians may wish that they could operate outside of a capitalist market economy, they cannot. They can either choose to extract maximum profits from fans themselves, or they can let resellers do it.

Or they can do any or all of the anti-scalping measures discussed earlier.

Or people could be courteous and heed the express wishes of the artists and fans, but obviously scalpers are unwilling to be courteous.

[me1]

I am not a fan of scalpers, but the truly mustachian way of dealing with them is to feel ok about missing the first 3-4 songs and then buying tickets from the scalpers at the door at half price of what they would have been on ticketmaster anyway. They are usually desperate at this point and it makes more sense for them to recoup any costs than none, so you can basically name your price.
 
At least this is what I used to do 10 years ago when I was young and thought going to overpriced shows was cool. Nowadays, I prefer small up and coming acts in small clubs. Tickets are a fraction of a price, you see actual musicians instead of 'stars', and it's a much more intimate atmosphere.

[mathlete]

Or they can do any or all of the anti-scalping measures discussed earlier.

Or people could be courteous and heed the express wishes of the artists and fans, but obviously scalpers are unwilling to be courteous.

Gotta love when fun ruiners (not you personally, seattlecyclone) tell you that the onus is on you to create a system under which they can't profit from ruining your fun.

It is technically correct I suppose, but why wait for rules/systems to progress to the point at which you can't ruin fun before you stop ruining fun?

Be a cool person today!

[seattlecyclone]

As much as the musicians may wish that they could operate outside of a capitalist market economy, they cannot. They can either choose to extract maximum profits from fans themselves, or they can let resellers do it.

Or they can do any or all of the anti-scalping measures discussed earlier.

Or people could be courteous and heed the express wishes of the artists and fans, but obviously scalpers are unwilling to be courteous.

My problem with these technical solutions to preventing reselling is that, although the stated goal is to ensure that the best fans get to go to the show even if they can't afford the market clearing price, it really does nothing of the sort.

Suppose someone found a way to reanimate John Lennon and George Harrison, the Zombie Beatles joined up with Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr to put on a one-night-only show, and they set prices for tickets at $20 apiece. How many people would want to go for that price? Millions. How many would actually get to go? Thousands.

Does the typical method of first-come first-serve ticket sales ensure that only the few thousand best Beatles fans get to go? Of course not. Even fairweather fans would be trying to click on the website at the appointed time for that price. It's just a race to see who can click the fastest or wait in line the longest. If your job or family commitments prevent you from doing that...too bad, so sad.

Auctioning off the tickets isn't a perfect solution either because there will certainly be some huge die-hard fans who care very deeply about the show but are left out because they have less money. However my gut feeling is that the people who actually make it into the venue under the auction system are, on average, going to be bigger fans than the people who make it in under the first-come first-served method.

[Dollar Slice]

Does the typical method of first-come first-serve ticket sales ensure that only the few thousand best Beatles fans get to go? Of course not. Even fairweather fans would be trying to click on the website at the appointed time for that price. It's just a race to see who can click the fastest or wait in line the longest. If your job or family commitments prevent you from doing that...too bad, so sad.

Auctioning off the tickets isn't a perfect solution either because there will certainly be some huge die-hard fans who care very deeply about the show but are left out because they have less money. However my gut feeling is that the people who actually make it into the venue under the auction system are, on average, going to be bigger fans than the people who make it in under the first-come first-served method.

My experience is the opposite. (Keeping in mind: my experience includes 1000+ concerts, many good friends in the music industry, many good friends who are huge live music fans, etc). People who want tickets badly enough will find a way to be online when they go on sale, or they will simply ask someone to help if they absolutely can't do it. But if the ticket costs $500 or $1000, they simply won't bother. For the vast majority of people, it's much easier to find a way to be online, or get a friend or family member to be online, at 11AM on a Wednesday, than it is to come up with a lot of money.

The people who are online the minute it goes on sale are the die-hard fans who are on the mailing lists, who follow the band on social media, who care about getting the best seats, who are willing to commit to going to the show way in advance, etc. So first-come first-serve does tend to get the best outcome in terms of the biggest fans getting tickets.

If there are a million people trying for a thousand tickets (or whatever extreme ratio), it becomes pretty much a random lottery, which is also very fair. As long as no one is using bots...

[GuitarStv]

As much as the musicians may wish that they could operate outside of a capitalist market economy, they cannot. They can either choose to extract maximum profits from fans themselves, or they can let resellers do it.

Or they can do any or all of the anti-scalping measures discussed earlier.

Or people could be courteous and heed the express wishes of the artists and fans, but obviously scalpers are unwilling to be courteous.

My problem with these technical solutions to preventing reselling is that, although the stated goal is to ensure that the best fans get to go to the show even if they can't afford the market clearing price, it really does nothing of the sort.

That is not the stated goal though (what the hell is a 'best fan' anyway?).  I think that the goal is that the widest array of fans possible get a chance to go to the concert.  When a thousand tickets are available and two thousand people want to go, yeah . . . many won't be able to.  The goal is to prevent the monumental unfairness of just holding a concert for the very richest people.

[CheapScholar]

I think some people are talking past each other. My opinion: there is a vast difference between having spare season tickets you won't use/camping out for days to buy 6 tickets OR having a bot program scoop up several hundred tickets the instant tickets go on sale online.

This comment is spot on.  A lot of the people on here really don't know how online scalping works today, specifically how efficient the bots are.  I know scalpers scooping up dozens of tickets, if not more, to single shows within the first seconds.  I don't care how fast you are with your computer, you'll never beat the bots.  Again, the BOTS ACT from December made them illegal, but people are still using them because they know the odds of getting caught are low.

[Brilliantine]

Where there is a line, there is market failure.

I think the auctioning-the-seats method is the best way to deal with scalpers. I honestly think all sellers who deal with supply-side shortages should do this. Like, Apple, for their Iphones, should just sell the very first one to the biggest bid and so on.

[Valhalla]

Where there is a line, there is market failure.

I think the auctioning-the-seats method is the best way to deal with scalpers. I honestly think all sellers who deal with supply-side shortages should do this. Like, Apple, for their Iphones, should just sell the very first one to the biggest bid and so on.

Very true. Remember when people were paying $10k or more for those pieces of crap PT Cruisers?  I remember when the IIHS had to pay thousands over sticker for a couple of PT Cruisers to test crash.

Ridiculous.  The PT Cruisers are some of the worst vehicles ever sold... I pity the fool who paid over sticker for them. 

Paying over sticker for anything makes zero sense, unless there are bigger fools down the line who will pay you even more for something.   I did buy iPhones before and resold them for a profit on eBay / Swappa, because people were dumb enough to overpay for them.  There are fools everywhere.

[Valhalla]

I am not a fan of scalpers, but the truly mustachian way of dealing with them is to feel ok about missing the first 3-4 songs and then buying tickets from the scalpers at the door at half price of what they would have been on ticketmaster anyway. They are usually desperate at this point and it makes more sense for them to recoup any costs than none, so you can basically name your price.
 
At least this is what I used to do 10 years ago when I was young and thought going to overpriced shows was cool. Nowadays, I prefer small up and coming acts in small clubs. Tickets are a fraction of a price, you see actual musicians instead of 'stars', and it's a much more intimate atmosphere.

I think that is a sensible and smart way of working the system.  The ticket is a perishable good, so you get them when they are desperate to sell and you can score some deals.

[farfromfire]

As much as the musicians may wish that they could operate outside of a capitalist market economy, they cannot. They can either choose to extract maximum profits from fans themselves, or they can let resellers do it.

Or they can do any or all of the anti-scalping measures discussed earlier.

Or people could be courteous and heed the express wishes of the artists and fans, but obviously scalpers are unwilling to be courteous.

+1

[StockBeard]

I consider ticket scalping to be highly unethical, and I'm happy I didn't go through things like that to reach FI. I feel sorry for people who reach FI through such means: I'm super happy that I'll be able to tell people how I became FI without having to admit that portions of it involved being a dick to fellow human beings who just wanted to enjoy a concert or a sports event.

People on this forum are lucky enough that we won't need to work all of our life. We should leverage this to try and make the Earth a better place, not the other way around.

[boarder42]

I consider ticket scalping to be highly unethical, and I'm happy I didn't go through things like that to reach FI. I feel sorry for people who reach FI through such means: I'm super happy that I'll be able to tell people how I became FI without having to admit that portions of it involved being a dick to fellow human beings who just wanted to enjoy a concert or a sports event.

People on this forum are lucky enough that we won't need to work all of our life. We should leverage this to try and make the Earth a better place, not the other way around.

I sure hope you made all your money working at a non profit your entire career and it was a top ten lowest overhead to be making such grand statements and personally attacking everyone in this thread who has scalped tickets. Your comment adds no value to this discussion other than to attack people who are doing something you personally don't agree with. If this were an acceptable way of responding to posts here I should just start calling everyone a dickhead that I don't agree with.

If you don't have any real value to add to the discussion you can move on.

[GuitarStv]

It seems some people don't like capitalism.  Perhaps we should close all retail stores (where they buy at one price and resale at a higher price).

Goodness. Okay.

With retail, you're paying for several valuable things on top of the item you purchase. You're paying for the retailer's convenient retail location. You're paying for their relationship with distributors, and for their logistical ability to get the product you like from its point of manufacturing, to the retail location. You're paying for the knowledge of the employees who can help direct you to which product will work best for your need. You're paying for the retailer's economies of scale. i.e., it is cheaper for them to order 1,000 widgets and ship it to their retail outlet than it is for you to buy one widget and ship it to your home.

With scalping, you're paying for the guy who was in front of you in line to turn around and hand you a ticket that he had no interest in to begin with.

Or, increasingly, you're paying the guy/bot who won the F5 raffle.

Retail undeniable creates value for everyone involved, at every level. The world would be a universally better place without career scalpers.

+1 on pretty much every point here.  People who scalp tickets are dicks.

this is incorrect.  when i buy group tickets to a game i can buy them cheaper than single game tickets, i also dont have to pay any fees when i buy tickets.  Now thanks to dynamic pricing that most MLB teams use i can then sell those tickets cheaper than the team is usually selling them for closer to the day of the game.  therefore providing value to the team b/c they sold tickets earlier, and to the fan who can get a ticket cheaper than the team is currently selling them for and without added fees.  you can add value scalping but i guess you could personally attack everyone who posted here and saying they do this and call them all dicks.

Fair enough, I stand corrected.  People who scalp tickets are dicks to everyone except the rich assholes who wait until the last second to buy for their event.

Seriously, seems like you didn't even read what the prior poster wrote, since they said they were reselling for less than the team itself.

I'm not sure that you fully understand what he's doing.  He's removing a block of tickets from the market when they're cheap, then waiting until no more inexpensive tickets are available, then selling them to those able to afford his inflated prices.  This effectively cuts out people who aren't willing to pay an exorbitant amount for tickets.

And let's be honest, all we are talking about is tickets to events that have nothing but entertainment value. It's not like folks here are buying up all the water and selling it at inflated prices to people dying of dehydration. It you can't go see U2 or some NFL game because the tickets are too pricey, then oh well...

Well sure . . . if these events aren't important to you, I can see why you are OK with the actions of scalpers.

NO guitar steve YOU dont get it.  MLB teams dynamically price tickets.  i'm not waiting for the cheap seats to sell out.  I'm buying up seats in bulk before the season starts to games i think will have a good draw.  So i can buy a ticket in march for 10 bucks for section 420 lets say.  then in july when the game is happening the team may have raised ticket prices for seats in that same section to 20-30 dollars plus fees or higher.  so i can sell my tickets in the same section where seats can be had from the team for 15-25 dollars with no extra fees creating a deal for the buyer.

I apologize.  If your selling isn't preventing people from being able to get event tickets at face value then I have no issue with your actions.

Hang on.  I take back my apology.  You admitted earlier that you were being a dick . . . in exactly the way that I mentioned:

i do this.  i get opening day tickets for the local baseball team and resell.  i used to do beer festivals but that market has become saturated - too many beer festivals so not much profit left.  I do concert i know will sell out as well.  But you do need to be prepared to lose money.  i usually make 10-15k a year doing this ... when i FIRE i plan to dig deeper into this game and do much more of it.  I just dont have the time to figure out what to buy and resell right now, so i just buy what i plan to go to and scalp extra tickets. 

hate on it all you want but its free market capitalism.

As an aside . . . saying that something is 'free market capitalism' isn't really an argument in your favour.  If I owned a tire shop in a truly free market I'd be free to scatter samples of carpet tacks all over roads in my neighbourhood to increase business.  Just because that action is entirely consistent with the free market doesn't make it ethical.

[trollwithamustache]

A friend of a friend type seems to make his living scalping on StubHub.

For him, it seems  the key is he has a group of friends who have given him their credit card numbers so he can buy tickets under multiple names. He pays them back right away, but it gets him the fancy concert tickets that he can mark up. My buddy likes his ridiculously high end baseball ticket, so the deal is in exchange for use of his ticket buying identity, the scalper gives him baseball tickets.  I believe as others have said, on the sports side, this gentleman looses a little bit here and there on lots of tickets and then makes a huge amount on big games and the post season.  The gentleman ticket trader has an MBA from a top tier business school, so I am under the impression he is running a fairly professional operation about things such as taxes all being properly avoided via an accountant.  :)

Ignoring any ethical issues with the scalping act itself, I've always been fascinated by the "circle of Trust"  the group has going on for this to work as described.

[shelivesthedream]

Yes, unclear where the assumption that everyone loves free market capitalism comes from, to the extent that "but capitalism!" is an acceptable argument. I don't love free market capitalism. It's shit. I'm one of those dreadful socialists. So "but common good!" is my equivalent but if I tried that here I wouldn't be able to leave it at that.

[arebelspy]

MOD NOTE: Please refrain from personal attacks.

Calling someone's behavior unethical, totally fine. Saying their behavior is activing like a *, close to the line.  Saying they are a *, not okay.

Ideally both groups--those frustrated they've missed out on an event because of scalpers, and those hustling to make an extra buck--can both learn from each other, and see why the other views it the way they do. Whether or not minds are changed, no need to be rude in the discussion.

[VoteCthulu]

For those that are OK with scalping and free market capitalism - what do you think about scalping food and water in hurricane ravaged areas?  I heard of some selling cases of water for $40 each.

Assuming you charged a high price like this, but made exceptions to those who couldn't pay (reduce price or take an IOU) so no one was harmed.  I guess these people would be doing the community a service by bringing in water and have the right to make a decent profit for their efforts.
 
I know this isn't the same, but it's the same class of people who use 'capitalism' as an excuse for unethical behavior.

I'm very glad that they are willing to bring more of the needed resources like water into the market. Hopefully other enterprising fellows see that profit and are encouraged to bring more water at $39/case, and so on until market equilibrium can be reached.

I'm against unethical behavior like stealing someone else's water or hacking a website to buy tickets, but my definition of unethical is simply different from yours in that it doesn't include the condemnation of merely selling things at their market price.