Traveling for business on expense account

[benjenn]

Does anyone else travel for business with an expense account? 

I'm in DC right now for a meeting... got here yesterday afternoon and my meeting starts at 1 p.m.  Had someone buy my dinner last night at a local spot.  Noticed the tab after her 20% tip was $85. 

Worked out at the hotel this morning and opted for a free banana for breakfast aftwards.  Coffee in the room.  Could have gone to the hotel's buffee and paid $20 but didn't.

I'm sitting at lunch right now and will pay almost $20 after tip at PF Chang's.  Not too expensive by most standards but definitely not very mustachian.  But it's not my money.

Dinner tonight is a group outing for the meeting and won't cost anything.  Will probably opt for the same breakfast tomorrow after working out again.  Lunch is included in the meeting tomorrow and it's out to dinner with another friend tomorrow night.  I will pick up the tab if she'll let me but I won't be surprised if she won't since I'm on her turf. 

Flying out early Friday morning and may grab another banana on my way to the airport.  Might buy lunch at the airport (which will surely be expensive!) between connecting flights.

So I will have taken a 4 day business trip and may spend $50 if I really push it.  At this point, it looks like it will be way less than that  I know others in the office who travel for work spend hundreds in the same amount of time.

Makes me wonder if I should loosen up a bit since I'm not spending my money... it's not as though I'll earn any points with the boss (honestly not sure WHAT I could do to earn points with him which makes retiring that much more appealing!) for not spending money that's in my budget... but then it's also not like I'm trying purposely NOT to spend money (like I would do if it were my money I was spending).  This just seems to be how I operate since we found MMM.

So should I spend money just because I can?  LOL.  Buying food I don't need doesn't seem like a good idea and then I'd have to work out harder.  But I'm sure, especially in a high cost area like DC, I could find more expensive places to go if I tried.  I guess part of my quandry is that I don't really like saving the company money when there's so much TB  (tiresome bullshit) I put up with at the office.  LOL.  I suppose spending more money just because of that wouldn't be the right thing to do...

Does anyone else deal with this?  I shouldn't have to travel too much between now and when we retire later this year but I was just wondering how other mustachians handle it.  :)

[AlwaysBeenASaver]

I don't try to squander the company's money, but I treat myself to meals I would ordinarily reserve for a special occasion due to the $$ - fresh seafood, dessert, room service; whatever works for you.

[SF Semi-Mustache]

Business travel and company events are actually some of the ways I keep myself from "splurging" on my own dime.  If I had a nice dinner at the Four Seasons for a work MCLE, a steak in a hotel restaurant somewhere, or a couple of fancy cocktails at a work happy hour, then I don't feel deprived at all going home to my slow cooker pork shoulder. 

[jda1984]

At our company, most of our travel is for client paid work (we're in consulting).  In that case, we add the per diem expense to the proposal.  At the end of the trip, we do an expense report and each person personally receives a check for their meals and incidentals.  Thus, it is in one's best interest to try to keep expenses low as the difference goes to that person.  For conferences or marketing type trips, it's somewhat similar, but we'll often take clients out and cover the bill and expense the actual cost to a marketing budget for that event.  In that scenario, it is somewhat expected to splurge to establish/maintain rapport with the clients.

[gt7152b]

I try my best to spend my company's money like I would my own. There are just several limitations because I'll be expected to stay in a certain hotel or eat at certain restaurants due to group decisions. Maybe I'm a little looser with the strings when picking a certain meal off a menu but nothing outlandish. I usually try to recommend public transportation over car rentals when it's applicable.

It's similar to asking if you would change your spending habits if you had a $10 million windfall overnight. You'd have plenty of money to spend more without affecting your financial situation but would that align with your personal ethics? MMM could spend way more than $24,000 per year on his family but he would not be happy with the impact that has on the world (as a percentage). I just watched I Am on Netflix thanks to a recommendation on this forum and it covers the same topic.

[RunHappy]

I'm a consultant so all my business/travel expenses are paid by the client.  The travel expenses are pretty generous, but I still find myself living frugally.  I typically stay at the same types of hotels no matter where I go (free breakfast, free wifi).  To me frugality is a lifestyle regardless of who is footing the bill.

[Tabaxus]

I also travel on an expense budget.  Will admit that I don't pay close attention to the bills, because there's no benefit to keeping them lower.  That has had an awful effect on my waistline over the past few years, so I'll be minimizing the expenses as part of my campaign to fix that damage.

[frugalnacho]

I find that I don't get recognized or receive any benefit from being frugal when work is paying.  In my home life if I opt to eat chicken instead of steak it has a large impact to my bottom line, but if the company is footing the bill it makes no difference.  I don't get that money kicked back, and I don't receive an extra bonus because of it.  I have no incentive to try to be frugal and save the company money when dining out.  So I tend to live it up as much as I want when the company is paying.  I don't get ridiculous and order rounds for every person in the place, but I certainly wouldn't hesitate to order an over priced soda or get a nice cut of steak.

I also don't buy the "I wouldn't spend a single penny more even if I won the lottery" attitude some people have.  MMM himself admits he spends on tons of luxuries and his 24k/yr spending would certainly be lower if he was in financial trouble.  I would change my diet and spending habits if my wealth increased a ridiculous amount, as many of my choices are based on finances.  I rarely eat steak, even though I love steak, because it is expensive and has an impact to my finances if it was a regular habit.  If I had $10M in the bank, or my company was paying for it though, I would almost certainly choose steak over chicken 90% of the time (instead of my current inverted 10:90 steak:chicken ratio).

[mak1277]

I used to travel on expense account quite often, for a large company full of people who traveled extravagently.  I also really enjoy fine dining and nice restaurants, so I had quite a few dinners that were in the neighborhood of $100 per person that got expensed. 

But I would never spend money just because I could...only on things that I actually wanted.  If you're perfectly happy continuing to be frugal even on expense account, then don't sweat it.  Just do what you want to do with it and don't worry about spending a certain amount if you're not really into it.

[retired?]

I find that I don't get recognized or receive any benefit from being frugal when work is paying.  In my home life if I opt to eat chicken instead of steak it has a large impact to my bottom line, but if the company is footing the bill it makes no difference.  I don't get that money kicked back, and I don't receive an extra bonus because of it.  I have no incentive to try to be frugal and save the company money when dining out.  So I tend to live it up as much as I want when the company is paying.  I don't get ridiculous and order rounds for every person in the place, but I certainly wouldn't hesitate to order an over priced soda or get a nice cut of steak.

I also don't buy the "I wouldn't spend a single penny more even if I won the lottery" attitude some people have.  MMM himself admits he spends on tons of luxuries and his 24k/yr spending would certainly be lower if he was in financial trouble.  I would change my diet and spending habits if my wealth increased a ridiculous amount, as many of my choices are based on finances.  I rarely eat steak, even though I love steak, because it is expensive and has an impact to my finances if it was a regular habit.  If I had $10M in the bank, or my company was paying for it though, I would almost certainly choose steak over chicken 90% of the time (instead of my current inverted 10:90 steak:chicken ratio).

Agree.  Was not noticed at all in the places I have worked.  It was interesting to see managers trying to keep the cost down....not for the benefit of the money, but b/c they thought it would get them "points".  It could almost be seen as a negative, i.e. the real value you provide is keeping the budget down rather than your actual work?  Every firm would rather have a valuable employee who spends his full allowance than a marginal person who keeps the cost down.  There were limits anyway to keep people in line.

[ThatGuy701]

I traveled a lot for work and the company paid for everything. I would be gone for weeks at a time and only spend $1.00 of my own money.
When I first started traveling I would buy all the expensive meals and drinks just because I could and what I came to find out is that a $100 dinner isn't any more satisfying to me than a $10 dinner.

If you allow yourself to only be satisfied with expensive meals and become a wine connoisseur the harder it will be to cut cost at home.
If a person is used to eating only the best and drinking only the best they will have a tough time in retirement once they no longer have the company paying for it.
 
If you are satisfied with only having a banana for breakfast and spending less on dinners then good for you! This means you have actually made life changes and not just living frugal because you financially have to.

Sounds like you won't have to worry about this much longer anyway!

Have fun in retirement!

[CDP45]

I always try not to eat alone, always be networking and building relationships. I see 2 scenarios: my expenses and spending on clients.

My expenses: I'm fine with average, with an emphasis on quick. I'm not going to sit down for breakfast because it's going to take time to get my order, cook it up, wait for the bill etc... rather just do the grab stuff on counter and eat and leave. I'm not going to stay in motel 6, but I travel to small towns, not fancy stuff (think Boise). I will spend more on airfare to get back soon, even bought a 1st class ticket on the spot in Denver when shitty frontier airlines said their 9pm flight wouldn't leave before 2am. It was only like $300 anyway but no regrets there.

Clients: Happy to spend the company's money on the company's clients, especially if it helps increase sales ergo my bonus. I feel somewhat deficient here actually, any good ideas other than dinners?

I feel like on this forum there's a lot of demonizing of work yet basically we need to be making an above average way for years to FIRE, and there's like 0 topics on how to do better at work...though it's critical to FIRE. So thanks to OP for starting this one!

PS - I really haven't found a way to personally benefit from the spending other than a few decent meals here and there, would rather be home with the fam.

[benjenn]

Thanks for all the great responses.  I guess (like someone said) I really have changed my spending habits to the point that I don't feel like being frugal deprives me at all, even when I have someone else's money to spend.  That's a good thing.

I did, however, stop at Starbucks on my way to the meeting this afternoon and spend $5 to get a Chai Tea for the first time in MONTHS.  :)  So there you go... a $5 splurge with someone else's money and I'm happy.  LOL.  Now that is pretty funny in my book.  :)

[iwasjustwondering]

I travel for work every so often.  When we travel for more than six hours, we can fly business class, but the last time I flew internationally, I flew coach.  It was actually pretty hard, because I had to stop in London, get off the plane in Prague at 2pm, and then start meetings/dinner.  I was pretty tired.  But I didn't want to waste the company's money, and business class was something like $8,000.  I took a shower at Heathrow (10 pounds), which made a huge difference in how I handled the day.

If the cost of isn't too outrageous, I fly business.  I'm pretty frugal when I travel, though.  If it's just a colleague and I, we'll do lunch at Au Bon Pain or something, esp. if we're going out for a fancy dinner that night as a group.

[JLee]

I view travel/per diem coverage as a perk/benefit of my employment. If they are willing to pay "X" for me to do something, I have zero shame in using as much of that benefit as possible. I'm already not using the sick time they give me, so I might as well get what I can out of what they offer!

[penguins4everyone!]

Business travel and company events are actually some of the ways I keep myself from "splurging" on my own dime.  If I had a nice dinner at the Four Seasons for a work MCLE, a steak in a hotel restaurant somewhere, or a couple of fancy cocktails at a work happy hour, then I don't feel deprived at all going home to my slow cooker pork shoulder.

I definitely do this too!  When I've just eaten at restaurants for a week for work, all I want is to go home and have some yogurt and homemade granola and not have to have a customer service interaction at a restaurant 3x/day.  Also, I feel like I am just leaving a trail of garbage behind me when I travel from all the cups, receipts, paper napkins, plasticware, wrappers, ect.  (although on my last work trip i used my refillable mug and water bottle exclusively, which is a slight improvement)

When traveling I really like using company $ to try something that might actually be healthy, but is like, fancy people healthy.  I've had some good $7 green smoothies on the company dime, I also order the salmon on the menu at every opportunity.  I never buy salmon in real life but I hear it's good for you.  Also, $12 kale salads for lunch whenever possible.  When it's my own money, I'll go for filling and cheap, which is often not the healthiest in a restaurant environment. 

[xenon5]

I'm traveling for about 25-50% of working days each year.  My company gives me a flat rate for per diem, and I get to keep any points from hotels and airlines.  Generally I pick a hotel with free breakfast, and once you get enough status with a hotel chain, some hotels will also have a free evening meals or snacks as well.  So I spend as little as $10-20 on food on weeks when I don't eat out at all, and bank the other extra $200ish per diem each week.  It's basically tax free income!

I've seen both ends of the spectrum.  On my current project my manager is also pretty frugal so we go to the grocery store together after work on Monday to pick up On my last project, many of my coworkers were spending the $40 a day(!!!!) on food and drinks.  When I told one of my teammates I only spend $14 one week she looked at me like she'd seen a ghost.  But honestly I don't understand how everyone was spending so much when these hotels practically throw free food at you all day!

[benjenn]

Well, I splurged again at Starbucks... another Chai tea and a scone instead of the free hotel banana.  That $7 puts me up to $32 and I expect that will be the last I spend today.  Definitely under $50 for the 4 day trip.  Two salmon dinners so far and probably another tonight.  Not a bad deal.

[JLee]

I'm traveling for about 25-50% of working days each year.  My company gives me a flat rate for per diem, and I get to keep any points from hotels and airlines.  Generally I pick a hotel with free breakfast, and once you get enough status with a hotel chain, some hotels will also have a free evening meals or snacks as well.  So I spend as little as $10-20 on food on weeks when I don't eat out at all, and bank the other extra $200ish per diem each week.  It's basically tax free income!

I've seen both ends of the spectrum.  On my current project my manager is also pretty frugal so we go to the grocery store together after work on Monday to pick up On my last project, many of my coworkers were spending the $40 a day(!!!!) on food and drinks.  When I told one of my teammates I only spend $14 one week she looked at me like she'd seen a ghost.  But honestly I don't understand how everyone was spending so much when these hotels practically throw free food at you all day!

If we could keep our per diem, I'd incline more that way. In my case, if I spent $25 over 5 days, I'm leaving $300 on the table (that's likely getting billed to the customer anyway, and I assume some way getting pocketed by an upper echelon manager as a bonus). If you get to keep anything that's not spent, that's awesome!

[benjenn]

I wish we had a per diem that was a spend it or keep it deal but we don't.  I would come out WAY ahead that way.  As it is, I just don't spend much and the money stays in my budget.  If it's still there at the end of the year, it's just gone.  I'm not purposely trying to save money, I just can't seem to make myself spend money, even when it's not mine.  :)

[frugalnacho]

I'm traveling for about 25-50% of working days each year.  My company gives me a flat rate for per diem, and I get to keep any points from hotels and airlines.  Generally I pick a hotel with free breakfast, and once you get enough status with a hotel chain, some hotels will also have a free evening meals or snacks as well.  So I spend as little as $10-20 on food on weeks when I don't eat out at all, and bank the other extra $200ish per diem each week.  It's basically tax free income!

I've seen both ends of the spectrum.  On my current project my manager is also pretty frugal so we go to the grocery store together after work on Monday to pick up On my last project, many of my coworkers were spending the $40 a day(!!!!) on food and drinks.  When I told one of my teammates I only spend $14 one week she looked at me like she'd seen a ghost.  But honestly I don't understand how everyone was spending so much when these hotels practically throw free food at you all day!

If we could keep our per diem, I'd incline more that way. In my case, if I spent $25 over 5 days, I'm leaving $300 on the table (that's likely getting billed to the customer anyway, and I assume some way getting pocketed by an upper echelon manager as a bonus). If you get to keep anything that's not spent, that's awesome!

Same here, I don't see anything that I save the company.  Eating pb&j with water instead of a steak with 5 beers makes no difference to my own pocket book, so I go for the beers and steak.

[Tyler]

I've traveled a lot internationally, and view meals as part of the total compensation for my time. It seems that many people go out of their way to eat expensively every chance they get. I generally just get what sounds good regardless of the price (sometimes a steak, sometimes a PB&J sandwich, often some delicious local food hard to find in the states).

FWIW, I once worked at a large company with a set per diem instead of an expense limit. That was awesome. I never had to show a receipt, and got a set $135/day in additional pay for my Asia trips. Following my normal routine outside of the hotel and tourist spots (where food prices are inflated for westerners) I ate like a king and still pocketed most of the money.

[mak1277]

I travel for work every so often.  When we travel for more than six hours, we can fly business class, but the last time I flew internationally, I flew coach.  It was actually pretty hard, because I had to stop in London, get off the plane in Prague at 2pm, and then start meetings/dinner.  I was pretty tired.  But I didn't want to waste the company's money, and business class was something like $8,000.  I took a shower at Heathrow (10 pounds), which made a huge difference in how I handled the day.

If the cost of isn't too outrageous, I fly business.  I'm pretty frugal when I travel, though.  If it's just a colleague and I, we'll do lunch at Au Bon Pain or something, esp. if we're going out for a fancy dinner that night as a group.

You're a better man than I am...I would never...NEVER...turn down business class if my company was paying for it no matter how much it cost.

[xenon5]

If I were to look for a new job with a similarly large amount of travel, one of my interview questions would definitely be "what's your per diem/expense policy"? If I have to travel 1,000 miles a week for several weeks at a time I better be getting something out of it!  I just happened into a company with a good policy without knowing it was a good question to ask as a business travel newbie.

[Dimitri]

I travel a couple of times a quarter and stay at company properties.  I have full RFB so I can sign for anything.  That said, I bring granola bars and instant coffee with me and eat breakfast in the room.  Sometimes for dinner I do the same.  The only real significant expense I incur for the company each trip is the fact that I won't drive from the airport.  I have a black car pick me up and another take me back at the end of my trip.  But otherwise I'm cheap with the company's money.

[tbcg12]

I have worked for two large consulting firms and how I handle the expenses depends on the company policy.

For one, we got the city per diem rate but if we did not use it, we lost it. Better believe I spent it. Perfect way to get fresh seafood, fancy cocktails, etc that I normally would not get.

At my current firm, we keep the difference so I will eat the free continental breakfast and usually keep expenses as low as possible.

[Lifestyle Deflation]

I expense every last cent I spend on company travel. I don't go overboard but I do like to stay at decent "corporate" hotels. Great way to get points for hotel/airline rewards in my book.

[benjenn]

Well, I was right.  My friend insisted on buying dinner last night (delicious crab cakes!).  I spent another $7 at Starbucks this morning (I'm pretty sure it will be June, on my next business trip, before I do that again!) and then spent $20 on the taxi to get to the airport so I'm up to a grand total of $59 for a 4 day trip.  I got a free Uber ride from the airport to the hotel earlier in the week because someone else had signed up at my suggestion.  Hate that I gave that to the company instead of using it for a personal ride... may see if I can submit that on the expense report since I have a receipt for what it would have cost.  Also spent a few dollars in tips that I should get reimbursed for, too.  All in all, it was a cheap trip for the company and I feel like I splurged.

[Davids]

I have a company credit card as well. I don't go crazy with it when i travel but i definitely loosen up. Remrmber you need your substinence, i think that's the word...

[OSUBearCub]

I have a company credit card as well. I don't go crazy with it when i travel but i definitely loosen up. Remrmber you need your substinence, i think that's the word...

I think you mean "sustenance": food and drink regarded as a source of strength; nourishment.

[sugarsnap]

I had a job with a $25/day allowance. We were on the road all day and often got a subway sandwich, ate half for lunch and half for dinner. If our hotel was near a chain restaurant we would go and get a $25 gift card and submit that receipt. I was eating free crappy chain restaurant food for quite a while after that job ended.

[Tabaxus]

I'm traveling for about 25-50% of working days each year.  My company gives me a flat rate for per diem, and I get to keep any points from hotels and airlines.  Generally I pick a hotel with free breakfast, and once you get enough status with a hotel chain, some hotels will also have a free evening meals or snacks as well.  So I spend as little as $10-20 on food on weeks when I don't eat out at all, and bank the other extra $200ish per diem each week.  It's basically tax free income!

I've seen both ends of the spectrum.  On my current project my manager is also pretty frugal so we go to the grocery store together after work on Monday to pick up On my last project, many of my coworkers were spending the $40 a day(!!!!) on food and drinks.  When I told one of my teammates I only spend $14 one week she looked at me like she'd seen a ghost.  But honestly I don't understand how everyone was spending so much when these hotels practically throw free food at you all day!

You might consider looking more carefully at the tax treatment of per diems (pretty sure they are treated differently than expense reimbursements if you can get the per diem even if you don't spend the money).

[boy_bye]

I wish we got a per diem for work travel -- instead we need to submit receipts and if it's just us, there's a $75/day limit on what we can spend on food and drink for ourselves. Easy to stay within the limit when going to, say, Michigan, but more difficult in places like Las Vegas where one room service order (at the end of a long ass day when the idea of eating near another human is intolerable) can easily wipe that out.

There's no incentive to spend less, but like some others have mentioned, this can be very dangerous to those of us who have tendencies toward gluttony and fatness.

[I'm a red panda]

I so wish we got a per diem instead of an expense account. Although I do loosen up a bit when it isn't my money, I just cannot waste money.

I am going to Orlando next week and thought I might try a Disney restaurant I had read a lot about. But the cab would be $40 each way.  I said something about how I couldn't expense a cab when there are restaurants right near my hotel, and my coworker said "of course you can, I mean- you need to get dinner and you need a way to get there."

But there is just nothing in my being that would allow me to spend $80 on a cab to get food when I can walk 3 feet across the street and get food. (And decent food- there are at least 15 choices within a mile).

I will however go to Olive Garden and order an appetizer and a drink instead of Chipotle and get neither.  Expense accounts are not great on the waistline.

[I'm a red panda]

You're a better man than I am...I would never...NEVER...turn down business class if my company was paying for it no matter how much it cost.

I agree- I'd never turn down business class. Unfortunately, the only person in our company who is authorized to travel that way is the CEO.  Not even the other C level officers.

[mak1277]

My friend insisted on buying dinner last night (delicious crab cakes!).

I'm going to take another line of thinking here...by allowing other people to buy, even though you're on expense account, are you giving away credit card points/miles that you should otherwise be earning?  Aside from living free while you're out of town, miles are the other big benefit to travelling.  If you travel a lot you should definitely get a reward card and use it for as many of the out of town expenses as possible (both yours and your co-workers if they let you).

[Jamcas]

Yeah, just because the company is paying doesn't mean I change my spending habbits. I don't like to spend my money for irrelevant stuff and it doesn't make me happy to spend someone elses on it. Actual travel expenses are alright of course..

[cashstasherat23]

I love when I get to expense things for work. I'm going to 8-10 different cities a year for events, and I try to stay a day extra in each one, at least, to explore on my own. We don't have any sort of per diem, our boss just asks us to be reasonable. I definitely use this as a way to try out some of the more delicious local foods (and craft beers!), without spending too much out of pocket!

The rule is that the company will pay for anything they would have to pay for even if you did not stay, for example rides to/from the airport, doesn't matter if you go on Tuesday or Wednesday, they still would have had to pay. Same thing with meals, they will pay for breakfast, lunch dinner, and any snacks you get on that event day, so I try to get at least one big meal on the work day, along with a few snacks, that can last for a few portions, so I have things to munch on while I am on my exploring day on my own! Have saved a ton of money and explored (ate my way through) some really great cities this year.

[I'm a red panda]

  Aside from living free while you're out of town, miles are the other big benefit to travelling.  If you travel a lot you should definitely get a reward card and use it for as many of the out of town expenses as possible (both yours and your co-workers if they let you).

This is why I hate that I have a company credit card.  No rewards.  I'd rather float the expenses until they reimburse my own card.

[CDP45]

  Aside from living free while you're out of town, miles are the other big benefit to travelling.  If you travel a lot you should definitely get a reward card and use it for as many of the out of town expenses as possible (both yours and your co-workers if they let you).

This is why I hate that I have a company credit card.  No rewards.  I'd rather float the expenses until they reimburse my own card.

Plug in your personal miles/hotel reward program when you buy the tickets, then you get them personally. My problem is that miles aren't worth shit, they just make up whatever bullshit exchange rate. Like it costs $0.05 to buy miles, but then it costs 10000 miles for a $100 ticket! Ahh! Thanks govt for making the airline industry a monopoly.

[benjenn]

We have to use the company credit card so the company gets reward points for what we spend, not me.  I used to get a TON of points when I could put my business charges on my personal card and get reimbursed for it but those days are over.  I still get the frequent flier points when I buy plane tickets but not as many as if I could pay with my airline credit card.  Those days are gone.

[desk_jockey]

When I’m on business travel I try to be reasonable, but also consider that time has a high value too.   I’ll usually book the cheaper hotel option.   But I won’t hesitate to chose an airfare that is $100 more, if it saves me 3 hours travel time by going direct instead of having 1 stop.   At my destination, I’ll take a taxi instead of losing an hour with public transportation.   And I’ll often choose dinner at the hotel for $20 instead of walking down the street to find a restaurant for $10.     When I’ve worked all day, its 8:30pm and I still have 2+ hours work left to prepare for tomorrow, then it is much better for me and the company if I go with the more expensive, more convenient option for a meal.   It doesn’t benefit my company as much save $200 on a $5000 trip (my time plus expenses) as it does to squeeze the most possible results out of that trip.

Now when I travel for vacations and there are far less time constraints, my decisions are much more MMM-ian.