Author Topic: Travel and Mustachianism  (Read 5589 times)

SimpleCycle

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Travel and Mustachianism
« on: October 05, 2017, 11:58:17 AM »
I was reading this thread (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/weird-fourm-coversations-has-the-community-gone-soft/) and there are some mentions of extensive travel, especially international travel, as not necessarily in line with the principles of Mustachianism.

I am interested in this because for me, travel is the biggest struggle in figuring out how to align my spending with my values.  One one hand, I strongly value experiences, the opportunity to see new places and learn about other cultures, and the opportunity to shake up my routine with something new and very different from my usual routine.  On the other hand, I also value taking care of the earth and saving money to enable future freedom.  Air travel in particular has a huge carbon footprint and is quite expensive, especially now that we are a family of four.

Our approach to balancing this has been a combination of finding cool experiences in our region and making our big trips really worth it by choosing destinations that are super exciting and different from our usual.  One area that is still a challenge is what I would consider "low value" travel for family obligations (we live far from our families).  In the past I have considered this the "cost of doing business" of having jobs that keep us far from home, but I am beginning to question that.

Thoughts on how travel fits into a Mustachian lifestyle?  Or does it not fit in?

Luck12

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2017, 12:01:36 PM »
Financially churning/sign up bonuses for credit cards helps.  Also, one or two long trips instead of 3-4 shorter trips.   

PoutineLover

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2017, 12:15:09 PM »
I value travel, including both international travel for new experiences and more local travel to visit family/friends. I have just started using points to travel, and plan on getting more flights that way, but since I don't spend a lot that is somewhat limited. I am conscious of the environmental impact of plane travel but since I don't drive and my electricity comes from renewable sources, I figure I'm overall not too bad if I fly once or twice a year. When I travel I don't spend all that much more than my regular life (couchsurfing, staying with friends, exploring a city by walking around, doing some picnics instead of always restaurants, etc.). As long as my overall spending is in line with my goals, I don't think travel is necessarily unmustachian. I enjoy it, I learn from it, it's an incentive to learn more languages and I don't go all out on vacation and pay for it later. I'm not spendy in other, more wasteful ways, so it's my main indulgence and I wouldn't want to give it up completely just to retire sooner. However, I don't think it's prudent to go on extravagant vacations while in consumer debt, and it shouldn't derail your other goals unless you are fully aware of that and accept that consequence.

GetItRight

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2017, 12:33:03 PM »
I don't believe travel as most here (or perhaps the most vocal about travel) tend to do it. They fly to all sorts of faraway expensive places. Of course they tend to minimize cost by using points, rewards, etc. to do it for less than most of the general public presumably do, but there's still a cost. Those time and effort into the points and reward could have led to other different types of rewards, maybe focusing on cash rewards put toward the stash resulting in an earlier FI date. That would be a better use of the churning effort for me, arguably a more prudent use for the majority, but not necessarily a better use for those who value that type of travel.

For me, there's so much to see and do in this country that I tend to travel within the region, within a day or two drive. I rarely spend money for hotels and such when traveling, though i don't really travel often. One big trip and one small trip per year typically, that involve an overnight stay. I value material possessions far more than travel. After paying for travel you only have memories. After purchasing a material possession (a motorcycle, a boat, sports equipment, etc.) you can keep using that possession for enjoyment and experiences as often as you'd like. Well, more often than a single instance of travel and once you're FIRE, as often as you'd like.

Global1st

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2020, 12:16:11 AM »
Once or two times per year you should travel to a new place, to see something what you have never seen before, to try some local food, to meet new people and of course to fill yourself with positive emotions. Travel for me is not just “went there, seen that”. It is an activity that brings me peace and enrich me with new ideas, feelings and motivates me to climb to the new peaks.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2020, 02:01:52 AM »
This is a major struggle for me too.  We both absolutely love travel and with 2 kids the costs and carbon footprint an add up.  I live on a different continent than my parents and sibling so I see travelling to see them around once a year is a fixed cost that I build into my budget.  For other travel, we live in Italy and there is just so much to see that's either near where we live or in other European countries that are a 1-2 hour flight from here.  We tend to travel quite a lot within Italy by train or bus.  Last year we visited Perugia/Assisi and also Naples and we're currently planning a long weekend in Florence in the next month or so.  But we also take advantage of Ryanair mostly to visit friends of ours around Europe.  Last year we flew to Dublin for less than 200 euros round trip for the 4 of us to see our friends who live there.  This year we are thinking about either visiting a friend in London and/or taking the train to Northern Italy and Austria.

So I guess living in Italy makes things easier in a way as there is just so much to explore close to home.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2020, 02:35:00 AM »
I love travel and new experiences and think it’s the best thing ever. I can’t get caught up in the carbon footprint thing, sorry. I’m not going to deny myself the opportunity to see the world.

Hirondelle

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2020, 03:50:19 AM »
One one hand, I strongly value experiences, the opportunity to see new places and learn about other cultures, and the opportunity to shake up my routine with something new and very different from my usual routine.  On the other hand, I also value taking care of the earth and saving money to enable future freedom.  Air travel in particular has a huge carbon footprint and is quite expensive, especially now that we are a family of four.


Lots of thoughts and struggles here. Let's start with the fact that I love travel beyond almost anything else. Travel is my 2nd budget line, only rent is higher.

Then for the thoughts and struggles. If I want to look critically at my travel habits, I tend to look at the things you value about travel and look at why I think I need to travel to do those. For the things you mention these are:
1. Seeing new places
2. Learning about other cultures
3. Shake up your routine

These things are very common values regarding travel and I think it's quite funny how we all keep thinking we need to travel to get them (myself included!).

For 1. if you think about new places to see you often tend to think of faraway places, yet how many places right around the corner have you been? I have seen more places in faraway Laos than in next-door Germany, while the latter could be done with a much lower footprint. There's plenty of countries within a days bus/train ride away that I haven't been or just to the capital, which I keep forgetting when thinking about 'new places'. This is probably the case for you too, so start identifying the nearby places that attract tourists that you haven't been.

For 2. it's funny how people think they learn about different cultures when being in a place for a couple days/weeks. Think about your last international trip and ask yourself with how many locals you actually interacted; not talking about waiters, bus drivers, guides etc, but only actual people. This number is often remarkably low unless you were visiting friends or using Couchsurfing. At the same time, I know many folks living in places full of cultural diversity who never bother to look at the cultures of their own neighbours or coworkers. So identify what international exposure is there in your city/workplace and start getting to know cultures there.

For 3. What is your routine at home and why is it hard to shake it up? How is going on a local camping trip not enough 'shaking up' compared to going on a camping trip abroad? If it's about the hotel/accomodation you could pick a nearby city you haven't been and stay a night there. If it's about trying new things, I'm sure there's a lot of new things to try in your very own town or the one next door.

TL;DR: The things you value about travel don't require travel to get them. To feel more satisfied about these values, try to get them closer to home. Often it's an even better way compared to traveling far away and being sheltered running around tourist locations meeting other tourists for a week or 2.

Hirondelle

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2020, 03:54:14 AM »
Additional post regarding air travel, also applicable to visiting family. I wrote up this earlier on Diapasoun's journal. It's about how to reduce the impact of your air travel habits if you don't see ways to not fly at all: 

- See if you can travel partially by train/bus to an airport closer to your destination. Usually this doesn't make sense though.
- Do less frequent but longer trips (e.g. one 2 week visit to relatives instead of 2x 1 week)
- Try to go for direct flights rather than the ones with stopovers (take off and landing are the worst polluters so avoiding that is key). You could combine this with option #1. E.g. in my case I could either get a flight from Amsterdam to Asia by getting a stopover in Paris, OR I could take a train/bus to Paris and get the flight directly from there. Stupidly enough though the direct flight is often more expensive even if it's the very same flight! This can be very effective though if you live near a small airport where you'll always get expensive flights with stopovers, vs driving/bussing to a larger airport further away where you have better options.
- If you can choose from multiple airlines, pick the one with the cleanest planes (e.g. newer = cleaner) or airlines that are paying offsets by default (e.g. Easyjet has pledged to pay offsets for all their flights). Skyscanner is one tool that does include some recommendations regarding CO2 emissions for the different flight options they give you.
- Include paying offsets as part of your ticket price. I always calculate how much I'd have to pay in offsets using $30/ton CO2 as a price, including stopovers in the calculation. So if I see a cheap ticket I will calculate the emissions and add this to the total price. Makes it less tempting to respond to a good deal compared to calculating the offsets/CO2 emissions after buying the ticket and may affect your choice of flights due to extra layovers/less efficient routes.

Last one: commit to NOT using air travel for trips within a certain distance. For myself this means that I do not want to take planes anymore for places less than a night bus ride (up to 12h) away. Even if the bus/train is more expensive than the plane. This will also discourage me to take short weekend trips to see friends in the countries next door. If I want to visit them I'll have to suck up the long travel time and price, so I'll be pickier about which trips to take.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 03:58:09 AM by Hirondelle »

Khaetra

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2020, 09:50:10 AM »
I like to travel, but I hate to fly so all of my trips are road trips.  My next one will be next year and I am heading out to Yellowstone/Grand Teton. 

dougules

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2020, 12:28:36 PM »
EDIT: Fooled by a necropost yet again.  WTF?

It's not about frugality, but about efficiency in getting the most happiness for your resources.  Frugality is definitely a big part of that, but it's not the point. 

To start off, depending on where you go, geoarbitrage can make travel cheaper than staying home or especially domestic travel.  Staying in Thailand or Ecuador for a few months can be significantly cheaper than what you would have spent staying home in a upper-income country, even with the flight.  Also, traveling long-term forces you to pare back the stuff in your life. 

Even if you don't save money with geoarbitrage or reducing your possessions, you generally get a better bang for your buck spending on experiences than on stuff.  Maybe we'd be happier retiring a few years earlier to live within a small radius of home, but I don't think that's true of everybody.  Travel gives you new experiences.  It also connects you with new people, and human connection is one of the biggest drivers of happiness.  Another thing, I don't really believe that travel will save the world, but I do see a lot of misconceptions people have about the rest of the world if they've never been outside their own culture.

If you don't care to travel, though, that's great.  I'm not saying everybody should.  It does take a lot of resources, and maybe I'm actually a little jealous if it doesn't have any allure for you.  I do think it's worth it for those of us that do really enjoy it.

Of course your happiness needs to be balanced with other people's.  Flying does have a big environmental impact.  I don't know how to address that except to say that I'm willing to sacrifice in other things that are equal in their environmental impact.  My lunch today is completely plant-based.  Meat has a big environmental impact.  I'm willing to reduce my driving significantly.  Actually, spending time in countries with more well-rounded transportation makes it much easier for me to reduce my impact when it comes to day-to-day transportation and regional travel. 

For 1. if you think about new places to see you often tend to think of faraway places, yet how many places right around the corner have you been? I have seen more places in faraway Laos than in next-door Germany, while the latter could be done with a much lower footprint. There's plenty of countries within a days bus/train ride away that I haven't been or just to the capital, which I keep forgetting when thinking about 'new places'. This is probably the case for you too, so start identifying the nearby places that attract tourists that you haven't been.

I hear this a lot, but the point of travel for me is to go somewhere significantly different from my hometown.  That may be easy to accomplish with regional travel if you live in a small country, but in a big country like the US, regional travel doesn't really give you the same new environment.  Don't get me wrong; I love traveling within the US.  There's so much to see, but Laos gives way more unique experiences than California if you're from Alabama.  Even then, for reference, Los Angeles is further from my house than Istanbul is from Paris. 

Quote
For 2. it's funny how people think they learn about different cultures when being in a place for a couple days/weeks. Think about your last international trip and ask yourself with how many locals you actually interacted; not talking about waiters, bus drivers, guides etc, but only actual people. This number is often remarkably low unless you were visiting friends or using Couchsurfing. At the same time, I know many folks living in places full of cultural diversity who never bother to look at the cultures of their own neighbours or coworkers. So identify what international exposure is there in your city/workplace and start getting to know cultures there.

True, but that's more an argument for traveling more slowly, not against travel in general.   
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 12:39:30 PM by dougules »

Plina

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2020, 01:01:24 PM »
I see mustanchianism as spending in accordance with your values. Personally, I like traveling so I will spend money on that but will save on things that does not matter for me. I was traveling for 6 months last year and got by train and bus from Moscow to Bangkok.

If I am going to visit my parents by train it is app. 50 hours back and forth by train. If I fly it is about 15-20 hours. I go home about 2-3 Times per year for 2-4 weeks at time. As it is today I don’t see the train as an option. I fly about half of those trips with points. I am doing most of the business trips by train if it doesn’t require some crazy scheduling. Actually my slowtraveling made me much more positive to going by train. So I am going to skip the shorter long weekend trips and instead make one longer trip per year and the trips to family.

During my trip I so some crazy traveling. One Malaysian woman did three countries in a week. Some teenagers also had some crazy scheduling while I decided where I wanted to be and what I wanted to do for one or two days at a time.

Hirondelle

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2020, 01:14:49 PM »
@dougules not quoting you because it will get way too long with all the old posts attached.

I wanted to note that I mostly agree with you as I already started my post with my love for travel. I was not trying to make a stance against traveling, I was trying to make clear how one could fulful the things he values about travel in a non-travel or at least less costsly/environmentally damaging way. Basically I tried to give examples of how one could fit both the pro- and the anti-travel values in one thing (e.g. getting involved with the local immigrant neighbourhood to learn about culture rather than flying to their home country). That doesn't mean visiting these countries has no value (it has tremendous value!) but it's not the only or even the main way to get these experiences. I was definitely not trying to discount travel overall (see how I never said "don't travel" or "travel is bad, do only this instead!").

Lastly, Alabama to California may not be too exciting, but then LA is further away from Alabama than about the whole Carribean and Mid-America. Realize I never said that it had to be within your own country, just more nearby. I actually used Germany as a great example because it is a different country with different culture/language and it's more nearby than some places in my home country (so maybe doing Germany vs Laos wasn't the best choice, should've done Germany vs Rotterdam), yet I go there maybe once a year. So you going to Mexico or the Carribean vs LA or the PNW would be that very same example where you have actually options that are more different more nearby.

DadJokes

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2020, 01:19:27 PM »
EDIT: Fooled by a necropost yet again.  WTF?

That was my first thought too, but I have been thinking about this recently.

We've churned a bunch of points and even gotten the SW companion pass. However, travel is usually pretty exhausting to me. I'd like to take our son on trips when he is old enough to enjoy learning about the world, but that's several years from now.

In the meantime, we have all these reward points that just sit there. I could redeem for $0.01 per point, which would give us a few thousand dollars, or we could leave them and force in a trip to get that maximum benefit from them.

We do have a five year anniversary this summer, so I was considering Colorado or a national park (Glacier, maybe?). However, I don't even know how to plan activities for a trip like that, since all of our vacations have just been to the beach.

SimpleCycle

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2020, 03:02:22 PM »
EDIT: Fooled by a necropost yet again.  WTF?

It's okay, I'm still here and still wondering about it, particularly the environmental impact part.

Zikoris

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2020, 05:00:44 PM »
I'm not crazy about the environmental impact myself, but I see it as a bit of an inevitability pre-FIRE since we're not about to give up our #1 hobby. We literally do everything else "right" in terms of the environment (small apartment, vegan, low consumption, low waste, no car, no kids, composting, promoting this lifestyle, etc), that I see it more like "eh, this sucks, oh well" than something we need to urgently change. Post-FIRE (in about two years) we will have WAY more options due to a wide open schedule, and I look forward to doing a lot more slow travel and doing cool shit like crossing the ocean by boat.

sui generis

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2020, 08:40:21 PM »
Travel has always been my first love and part of the reason I wanted to FIRE early.  Like Hirondelle, it is the second highest category in my budget as a retiree, so if I did less of it....well, I guess I could have retired even younger! 

And indeed...I'm growing more concerned about the environmental impact and recent terrible experiences with flying have discouraged me from traveling that way as frequently.  So I think I will continue going on some longer trips despite those concerns, but fewer and a lot more closer to home.  If I don't spend all the money in my budget for traveling, I guess I'll donate it to environmental/other charities that can help offset the damage I am doing.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2020, 08:46:32 PM »
I don't travel much, not my thing, but I had an elderly relative that travelled all the time. She had some good little money savers. For example, she always packed boxes of crackers and snacky things so she didn't have to buy them. She always found a local store to buy things like big bottles of soda etc from. And she never bought more than one souvenir per trip, and NEVER clothing. She thought that clothing suited location and always looked rubbish when she got home. She generally went to asian countries, so I guess customs there lets foodstuffs in. They wouldn't here!

SeanTash

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2020, 05:00:29 AM »
I'm not crazy about the environmental impact myself, but I see it as a bit of an inevitability pre-FIRE since we're not about to give up our #1 hobby. We literally do everything else "right" in terms of the environment (small apartment, vegan, low consumption, low waste, no car, no kids, composting, promoting this lifestyle, etc), that I see it more like "eh, this sucks, oh well" than something we need to urgently change. Post-FIRE (in about two years) we will have WAY more options due to a wide open schedule, and I look forward to doing a lot more slow travel and doing cool shit like crossing the ocean by boat.
Yeah I'm the same. No kids (that alone should cover me!) almost never eat meat, don't own a car, rarely take taxi/uber... so I think I can justify a bit of air travel between places now and then (while slow travelling most of the time)

As to it being expensive, I don't think I could afford to be FI (and not work) if I wasn't travelling - first world countries are just too expensive to live in for me all the time.

scottnews

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2020, 04:19:01 AM »
There are carbon offsets that can be purchased, but I've no idea if there is a 3rd party that verifies them or how some of the carbon is offset.

Such as
https://www.terrapass.com/

Askel

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Re: Travel and Mustachianism
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2020, 08:28:23 AM »
Bikes! Bikes, bikes, bikes, bikes, BIKES!

Travel by bicycle is the best. 

Fairly light weigh in the environmental impact and there's no better way (except maybe walking) to immerse yourself in your surroundings. 

I've taken off on two week tours to come home and find I spent less money than I would have just going to work for those two weeks. 

Because I'm still a working stiff and a multi-month cross country tour isn't in the cards, I'll occasionally go multi-modal and mix in a train or ferry here and there if there's a destination in mind (usually visiting family).