Travel after FIRE

[SachaFiscal]

There are two expenses that I am nervous about having enough money for in retirement. One is healthcare for obvious reasons that have been discussed in numerous other topics. The other is travel. The amount we spend on travel can be quite large and I don't think I necessarily have enough budgeted for it in my estimated retirement expenses. We can easily spend 10k in a year and maybe more. I feel like there are people on this forum who spend a lot less than I do and I wonder how they do it. I guess I'd like to be somewhat comfortable when I travel but sometimes go overboard and end up staying in a really nice hotel just because it's vacation and I don't know if I'll ever go back there again. Then we eat out at fancy places and go out for drinks. Then helicopter ride. I can't seem to control my spending on vacation like I can at home.

Has anyone gone from spending lots on vacations to spending a moderate amount? How did you do it?

I'm a fan of vacation packages because I don't have to do much planning. Is this a bad idea? How do you plan your vacations so that they are comfortable and fun but not that expensive?

Right now I'm looking to go to New Zealand and there's a 14 day lord of the rings tour that will be 10K  for the both of us (not including airfare). Is that just crazy? Or a once ina lifetime experience and worth it? Anyone whose traveled to New Zealand on budget, advice welcome.

[rob in cal]

  Sacha, I can't speak for New Zealand, but over the last three years I've started to do a lot of travel research. For ideas on cheaper places to stay look on trip advisor, air bnb, check out the different travel forums etc. The strategy that I will probably use is to skimp on the accomodations and restaurants, but don't skimp on things like admission tickets to a cool castle or museum.  There are massive savings to be had by not eating out too much, and staying at modest, but still comfortable hotels, pensions, vacation apartments etc.
  It would probably be good to think about how much travel per year you hope to do, and what your overall budget target for travel would be

[undercover]

Holy shit. $10k for two weeks, not including airfare? Yes, I think you need to rethink your priorities. I mean, if you're willing to work long enough to cover these extravagances perpetually, then more power to you. I think with a little tweaking though, you'll find you're barely sacrificing anything and saving a shit ton in the process. The idea of paying for a tour or anything that involves some other human being doing a menial task for you seems incredibly ludicrous in today's instant access to information age. Just walk through the places yourself and use your smartphone.

I can drive 4 hours away and get pretty much the same benefits I would get from flying two continents away. Enjoyment of travel per dollar spent has a diminishing return after you've sufficiently traveled far enough from your home.

I just think you need to try to disassociate travel with having to be spendy and activity-packed in order to enjoy it. You need to try different travel styles. My favorite thing to do is experience nature - which costs very little if you're willing to camp and drive. I could care less about cities now because they're all basically the same.

[rockstache]

I'm a fan of vacation packages because I don't have to do much planning. Is this a bad idea? How do you plan your vacations so that they are comfortable and fun but not that expensive?

I will address this portion. I think vacation packages are a bad idea because you either spend a ton of money to have a tour created for you individually OR you join a (slightly less expensive but still pricey) generalized tour with a bunch of other random people. You then have to eat where they eat, shop where they bring you, and stay where they set up, none of which is a good deal for the tourist.

Most people that I know that travel that way later say...."If I did it again, I would plan it myself," and "I wish we had had more time to spend at X, but the tour only allotted an hour..." etc. It is easier to just book the tour and show up, and if you don't know how to use the internet very well, this is probably a great option (this is not sarcasm). For those of us with the time (which you will probably/maybe have in FIRE), and the inclination, self planned trips are much more enjoyable. You get to spend your time seeing things that are off the beaten path, and missed by the average tour group, and seeing what is important to YOU. That IMO is the best way to get the value for your money. 

[GreenSheep]

The reason I am not FIREd yet is that I'm saving enough to allow continuation of my current travel habits. Although there are endless worthwhile destinations in my own country, there is also something to be said for experiencing other cultures and seeing places that are simply nothing like anything we have in the US. So travel is worth it to me.

That said, I do travel fairly inexpensively. The expensive stuff seems to be stuff that's similar to home... the nice hotels, the meals at fancy restaurants, etc. I actually prefer to stay in a locally-owned inn or AirBnB, and experiencing the food culture is probably best done by eating at markets and street stalls. As mentioned above, nature is usually free, and I do a lot of hiking, etc. I have paid for a guided hike in places like Iceland's Westfjords, where the weather can go instantly from sunny and 70s to blizzard and the trails are not necessarily idiot-proof -- or Italy's Amalfi coast, where even the guide got a bit lost. Still, that's cheaper (and more fun, in my opinion) than a flashy hotel. In general, the way locals do things tends to be not only cheaper but more authentic -- the street food, the "chicken bus," and the particular activities they choose to partake in, like $8 massages in Thailand.

I also enjoy poking around grocery stores to see what they have and getting my own food for at least breakfast and lunch. I don't see this as "I'm too poor to have a real meal out." I see it as a fun opportunity to explore a culture through its food. As a bonus, I've heard that carrying your wallet, camera, etc. in a local grocery bag can make you less prone to crime. You might still stand out as "not from around here," but at least you've been around long enough to require groceries, and you're "poor" enough to shop like the locals.

Yes! Cities ARE pretty much all the same! It's interesting enough and cheap enough to stroll around a bit and maybe pop in somewhere for a cup of coffee and an hour of people-watching, but beyond that, I just don't really have any interest in cities.

[GreenSheep]

I'm a fan of vacation packages because I don't have to do much planning. Is this a bad idea? How do you plan your vacations so that they are comfortable and fun but not that expensive?

I will address this portion. I think vacation packages are a bad idea because you either spend a ton of money to have a tour created for you individually OR you join a (slightly less expensive but still pricey) generalized tour with a bunch of other random people. You then have to eat where they eat, shop where they bring you, and stay where they set up, none of which is a good deal for the tourist.

Most people that I know that travel that way later say...."If I did it again, I would plan it myself," and "I wish we had had more time to spend at X, but the tour only allotted an hour..." etc. It is easier to just book the tour and show up, and if you don't know how to use the internet very well, this is probably a great option (this is not sarcasm). For those of us with the time (which you will probably/maybe have in FIRE), and the inclination, self planned trips are much more enjoyable. You get to spend your time seeing things that are off the beaten path, and missed by the average tour group, and seeing what is important to YOU. That IMO is the best way to get the value for your money.

I agree. I've done some tours and felt all of the constraints that you mention. Now I find it helpful to go to a couple of tour company websites, look at the places they go to within whatever country/region I'm planning to visit, and get ideas from that. It's definitely worth doing other research, though, because if you look at what tour companies offer for the region where you live, you'll find that their clients are totally missing out on some fantastic spots, spending a lot of time in transit, and generally paying entirely too much for the experience. If safety and access are not an issue (meaning you're not going to get lost hiking on your own, and you don't need your own sailboat to get to a remote Thai island you want to visit), then do-it-yourself is the way to go.

[Gretamom]

I use travel hacking, which isn't really for everyone. You have to be super organized and OK with getting credit cards and then occasionally closing them. Check out richmondsavers.com for some great tips and also I believe gocurrycracker.com just had a recent article regarding this.

[Catbert]

Sacha, Remember when you're retired you'll have more time to investigate and plan vacations.  That can lead to cheaper vacations whether it's travel hacking or tracking down the best, cheapest accommodations. 

[dougules]

Do you think your expensive travel habits may be related to work stress or maybe just having more money than time?  Is there a chance you might learn to travel on the cheap you have more time than money?  If you want to take big package tours and helicopter rides you'll probably be working for a while to cover it.

[HenryDavid]

For us a big advantage is having the time to travel off peak. Venice in March, foggy and cool but empty and cheap. The Mediterranean in early October. Spanish coast in May. Stuff like that.
We have shared condos with friends for a week, done Air b n B, or equivalent, or found cheap hotels. If you can cook in your place its fun to shop local markets and you save a ton.

[Cottonswab]

Having fun while traveling cheaply is a skill that you will not develop, if you keep doing packaged tours. 

Researching packaged tours is a good way to get ideas for efficiently linking interesting places /experiences, but usually not worth paying for.  The lonely planet travel guides provide a crutch for people who are not experienced frugal travelers and will help you transition away from packaged tours.   

Get out of your comfort zone.  Sleep in airports, rental cars, hostels, campgrounds, or couch surf, when the opportunities are available.  Don't reserve any hotels, ahead of time.  Only sleep in hotels, as a last resort. 

[wanderin1]

Travel addict here, who work hard to FIRE because work gets in the way of travel!!

In my experience, you can reduce the cost of travel using the same techniques as for anything else: insourcing (do-it-yourself vs tour) and having a clear vision about your spending priorities. A couple of thoughts on each of these—

Spending priorities—once you are FIRE and your time is your own, will you still do short “we’ve got to cram it all in” trips? Lots of people who FIRE change to “slow travel”—for example, rather than the two week $10,000 Lord of the Rings blitz trip, you could spend a month in NZ, getting to experience most of the sights/activities of the tour, plus others of your choosing. Staying in comfortable places, plus adding in some exciting adventures (skydiving! Heli-hiking! Polynesian Spa!). Cost would be @ $6,000.


Insourcing—this  the second part of the equation--research, plain and simple. If I see a tour that inspires me, I then check out a map to see exactly where it goes, start googling for travel blogs and trip advisor to see what sights and activities are around--research independent transportation options, plus search more for activities that are special favorites of mine (like horseback riding). As you research, don’t be turned off by backpacker blogs—you might not be up for staying in a hostel dorm, but you will find great activity ideas there. For example, a couple simple google searches yielded these:
http://www.tourism.net.nz/tours/lord-of-the-rings-tours (NZ tourist board--ideas about how to do your own LOTR tour)

http://www.findingtheuniverse.com/2012/10/a-month-in-new-zealandmy-perfect.html great info on transoprt, accommodation

 http://www.ourbigfattraveladventure.com/2013/04/26/new-zealand-travel-costs-for-one-month/  mouth watering list of adventure activities, plus costs


Having said all this about cheaper travel, I did look at your orig tour (or something a lot like it)—it might actually include some activities you couldn’t get elsewhere (like maybe meet-and-greets with those involved in the movie making?). So if that’s your priority, and there isn’t another way to get to it --then maybe the two-week tour is actually worth it to you?  That will be the beauty and the challenge of your FIRE—you can do anything, but you can’t do everything. 

[SachaFiscal]

Wow these are really good tips! Thanks all for the replies and advice.

Do you think your expensive travel habits may be related to work stress or maybe just having more money than time?  Is there a chance you might learn to travel on the cheap you have more time than money?  If you want to take big package tours and helicopter rides you'll probably be working for a while to cover it.

I think that the tours or vacation packages I've done were probably a produce of work stress and not having the mental energy to plan better. So hopefully during FIRE that won't be an issue.  Also it's a little bit of fear of the unknown. I did a Costco vacation to Italy because I felt secure that the places I'd end up would be safe, clean, vetted.

@wanderin1 thanks for the links I will check them out.  i have heard people talk about slow travel being cheaper but I'm not sure how, as you end up spending more n accommodations, food, and activities the longer you are there. It would be nice to see a comparison with some details just to get an idea of where the cost savings come from. I do believe that it is cheaper, just would like more details on how to use slow travel to my advantage.

I will definitely try to travel off peak if possible, that is a great idea.  I can't always do this for vacations taken with my family but if it's just me and DH we are pretty flexible.  Also staying in a place where I can cook is definitely something I should do because I like to cook and I like eating mostly veg which is difficult to find when traveling.

I also liked the suggestion of researching tours to find the places to go, then just designing your own tour with a subset of the places you like.

My idea now is to just go to a couple of the lord of the rings tour stops on our own since I'm not a huge fan, just a medium fan of the movies.  Also I was thinking maybe I could try staying in a vacation rental with a kitchen in a few places for several days at a time and then utilizing public buses to take day trips to destinations.  I think what I really want to see in New Zealand is the amazing Nature scapes.  Also experience the culture there.  Maybe I can find some things to do that are off of the tourist track. 

[wanderin1]

  i have heard people talk about slow travel being cheaper but I'm not sure how, as you end up spending more n accommodations, food, and activities the longer you are there. It would be nice to see a comparison with some details just to get an idea of where the cost savings come from. I do believe that it is cheaper, just would like more details on how to use slow travel to my advantage.

The short answer is: Slow travel is cheaper on a day-to-day basis. You can spend $10,000 on your LOTR at a cost of about $260 per person per day. Or you can DIY comfortable travel featuring some great special adventures for about $100 per person per day.  So you can do a month trip for two for $6000.

The longer answer is that slow travel is a whole different kind of relationship to being outside of your home environment. Your LOTR tour would whip you around the country other foreigners on a standardized, whirlwind sightseeing itinerary, mostly isolated from local people. In contrast, slow travel lets you focus on the things you like to do—and skip what you don’t like. It also puts you into contact with locals, for example by (renting apartments, taking public transport). And that’s when the magic starts to happen. You’ll experience incredible help and kindness. You’ll find out about amazing things to see and do.

As for the how-to on $100 vs $260 per day, just google  “travel blogs” plus “a month in New Zealand.” You’ll find lots of blogs with detailed itineraries, pointers, budgets, etc

[mamagoose]

There are two expenses that I am nervous about having enough money for in retirement. One is healthcare for obvious reasons that have been discussed in numerous other topics. The other is travel. The amount we spend on travel can be quite large and I don't think I necessarily have enough budgeted for it in my estimated retirement expenses. We can easily spend 10k in a year and maybe more. I feel like there are people on this forum who spend a lot less than I do and I wonder how they do it. I guess I'd like to be somewhat comfortable when I travel but sometimes go overboard and end up staying in a really nice hotel just because it's vacation and I don't know if I'll ever go back there again. Then we eat out at fancy places and go out for drinks. Then helicopter ride. I can't seem to control my spending on vacation like I can at home.

Has anyone gone from spending lots on vacations to spending a moderate amount? How did you do it?

I'm a fan of vacation packages because I don't have to do much planning. Is this a bad idea? How do you plan your vacations so that they are comfortable and fun but not that expensive?

Right now I'm looking to go to New Zealand and there's a 14 day lord of the rings tour that will be 10K  for the both of us (not including airfare). Is that just crazy? Or a once ina lifetime experience and worth it? Anyone whose traveled to New Zealand on budget, advice welcome.

Our NZ plan is credit card bonuses to get the free airfare for our family of three, and then WAITING until we are FIRE (3 years from now) and spending an entire summer over there, potentially a whole year (while renting out our US home). Good things come to those who wait! And hell no, I would not spend $10k for 2 weeks. That's 1/4 of our annual spending.

[dougules]

Wow these are really good tips! Thanks all for the replies and advice.

Do you think your expensive travel habits may be related to work stress or maybe just having more money than time?  Is there a chance you might learn to travel on the cheap you have more time than money?  If you want to take big package tours and helicopter rides you'll probably be working for a while to cover it.

I think that the tours or vacation packages I've done were probably a produce of work stress and not having the mental energy to plan better. So hopefully during FIRE that won't be an issue.  Also it's a little bit of fear of the unknown. I did a Costco vacation to Italy because I felt secure that the places I'd end up would be safe, clean, vetted.

@wanderin1 thanks for the links I will check them out.  i have heard people talk about slow travel being cheaper but I'm not sure how, as you end up spending more n accommodations, food, and activities the longer you are there. It would be nice to see a comparison with some details just to get an idea of where the cost savings come from. I do believe that it is cheaper, just would like more details on how to use slow travel to my advantage.

I will definitely try to travel off peak if possible, that is a great idea.  I can't always do this for vacations taken with my family but if it's just me and DH we are pretty flexible.  Also staying in a place where I can cook is definitely something I should do because I like to cook and I like eating mostly veg which is difficult to find when traveling.

I also liked the suggestion of researching tours to find the places to go, then just designing your own tour with a subset of the places you like.

My idea now is to just go to a couple of the lord of the rings tour stops on our own since I'm not a huge fan, just a medium fan of the movies.  Also I was thinking maybe I could try staying in a vacation rental with a kitchen in a few places for several days at a time and then utilizing public buses to take day trips to destinations.  I think what I really want to see in New Zealand is the amazing Nature scapes.  Also experience the culture there.  Maybe I can find some things to do that are off of the tourist track.

You save money traveling by doing the same things you would do to save money at home.  Cook your own food, side benefit you have a good excuse to try new things from the local market and chat with the vendors on how to cook it.  Rent modest lodging over longer terms, side benefit you can stay in real neighborhoods with local people.  Move around less, side benefit you're spending more of your time enjoying each place and less on a bus or a plane.  Take buses instead of paying for a car, side benefit you don't have to deal with having to deal with insane drivers.

You should also try visiting a cheaper developing country and see how you like it.  Once you get used to the grime and the chaos (well that's Italy, too, really), it can be just as amazing as Europe or NZ for much less money.  If you like veg food, India will blow your mind.  How far money will go in India will also blow your mind. 

I know your other concern was health care, so if you need any major medical care you can do it while you're traveling.  Medical care is much more affordable in some countries. 

[honeybbq]

NZ is a VERY easy place to travel around in. I'd just do it myself or take a shorter tour just to get a flavor and fill in the gaps myself.

If you love traveling, learn to do travel planning yourself.
-copy other's itineraries
- use trip advisor, virtual tourist, etc.
- in FIRE you can be flexible. what an amazing way to save money!

[wanderin1]

You can get it much lower than $6k/month too. An off season rental for a grand, a pair of airline tickets for $500 each and just eat like you do at home and do self supported day trips or public transit for longer trips. Or you can be a house sitter lime Arebelspy and family do and stay in awesome areas for free. Then there's camping or staying at hostels or travelling by bike (see forum member Patrick ZA's very cool bike touring and camping around Europe thread). My budget as a single solo traveller is about $2k/month or less.

Spartana, you are 100% right! A $6,000 one month budget for two would allow them for example, enjoy Aukland for a couple of days, rent a car for the rest of the month and self drive around the country staying at decent small hotels, B&B's Airbnb, eating some meals on their own and others in restuarants, seeing sights plus doing some relatively high cost adventures. I figured this could make a good starting point for someone new to slow travel. But you are absolutely right about there being tons of ways to drive costs down, down, down.

[SachaFiscal]

These are great tips. It's comforting to know that I can enjoy traveling on a much lower budget. I was thinking I would need to work several more years to be able to enjoy traveling but it looks like many of you are doing it successfully for well under the amount I was thinking I would need.  You're all inspiring me. I feel excited now to plan a mustachian vacation. I feel similar to how I felt when I first found this blog and was excited about changing my daily lifestyle. It's a new challenge! And a whole new web surfing binge: travel blogs :-)
Thanks y'all.

[boarder42]

yeah you have to plan it yourself with costs in mind pretty simple outside of that.  i've spent 40 days traveling this year including hawaii and europe from the mainland US for 24 of those days for under 4k for my wife and i.  everything changes if we're retired though.  lots more slow travel.

[DebtFreeinPhilly]

Sacha, it looks like you are getting some great advice here on traveling that I think you can really improve your FIRE lifestyle.

My two cents on how I toured NZ a few years ago...

I toured Auckland for a few days staying on a friend's couch but you can easily get a hostel or Airbnb cheaply. Then I rented a car, headed south to Rotarua (Maori lands) and hit the Polynesian Spa. Spent a few days there touring the country side. All told I spent 6 days in NZ, relaxing and enjoying the scenery. Spent $1000 + $600 airfare. I did combine this trip with a visit to Sydney, AU so my plane ticket was $1800 return (SFO-SYD-AKL)

If I had the time (i.e. FIRE'd), I would take a month starting in Auckland working my way to the glaciers in the south. I would factor $200/day in travel expenses + airfare. Set a budget limit from the beginning and I think you would have an awesome time. 

[lordmetroid]

You can get it much lower than $6k/month too. An off season rental for a grand, a pair of airline tickets for $500 each and just eat like you do at home and do self supported day trips or public transit for longer trips. Or you can be a house sitter lime Arebelspy and family do and stay in awesome areas for free. Then there's camping or staying at hostels or travelling by bike (see forum member Patrick ZA's very cool bike touring and camping around Europe thread). My budget as a single solo traveller is about $2k/month or less.

Spartana, you are 100% right! A $6,000 one month budget for two would allow them for example, enjoy Aukland for a couple of days, rent a car for the rest of the month and self drive around the country staying at decent small hotels, B&B's Airbnb, eating some meals on their own and others in restuarants, seeing sights plus doing some relatively high cost adventures. I figured this could make a good starting point for someone new to slow travel. But you are absolutely right about there being tons of ways to drive costs down, down, down.

Yes you can go wayyyyyy down. My sister spent a year travelling around New Zealand (she gives new meaning to the word "slow" when it comes to slow travel ;-)) and probably spent $6k all together besides airfare. But of course she didn't do luxury stuff but had an amazing time anyways.she spent another year travelling around the USA on very little money plus several other similar slow travel trips of 6 months or so. All on a very tiny budget. Of course that type of budget travel isn't for everyone but I do think there are lots of middle ground between high endvand low end that the OP would really enjoy.

I do not understand, how could you stay for so long? Tourist visas usually only last at max for 3 months.

[wanderin1]

Yes, the tourist visa is a three month visa--and you can renew it several times simply by going to the local immigration office.

The challenge, of course is that NZ, like many other countries, requires that you have a ticket out of the country in order to ENTER the country. And you can't assume that you will get the visa renewal (though you almost certainly will). So you have to enter with a ticket out for a date within three months the of initial arrival. For NZ, the best thing to double would be to either buy a ticket with minimal change fees or buy a one way ticket plus one of the cheap and plentiful onward tickets to Australia (and buy another one way ticket for home--or go to Austrailia.!)

And you know that when your biggest challenge is figuring out how to find a visa for all the time and money hey you have available to spend, you have what is called a "high class" problem!

[Out of the Blue]

NZ has a working holiday programme with quite a few other countries so people under 30 can stay for around 2 years quite easily. 

I'm from NZ, lived here most of my life. I wouldn't recommend public transit for longer distance trips unless you're a single traveller, or you're not comfortable driving.  Public transit in this country is pretty awful and expensive, skips past a lot of places, and not very flexible.  This is a function of our insanely low population density, particularly in the South Island.  Car rental can be more economical (especially for a couple) for short trips.  For slow travel (e.g. 6 months+) I know people who buy a cheap second hand car for, say $1-5k, use it for the time they're here, then sell it for close to what they originally purchased it for. 

[kpd905]

I would really try to avoid package tours, because they charge crazy amounts to people who don't want to do a little research.  If possible, look at the itinerary of the package deal and just replicate it yourself.  Also look into credit card sign up bonuses to get flights and lodging for free.

For example, my wife and I just went to Europe for two weeks and hiked the Tour du Mont Blanc.  Before booking, I noticed that we could go on a guided trip through REI for about $5,000 each, and that cost didn't include airfare.

Instead, we used miles for the flights and a few hotel nights, and we bought a $15 guidebook.  Our total cost for the trip was $1400.