Author Topic: Today on Reddit r/studentloans there was a newly graduated dentist owing $558k  (Read 6436 times)

Daisyedwards800

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He was asking if a payment shown on his loan website of $5900 a month for ten years was normal.  Hardly anyone has responded.  I have no idea what to say to this kid.

:(

Wrenchturner

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That reddit gets 20+ posts per day, it looks like.  Most have less than ten replies. 

I didn't see that one jump out at me.  It's a sad state.

As someone who didn't take a pile of loans out, partly due to my own caution and partly since I wasn't headed in a highly academic direction, I am curious how people end up stumbling into this ditch.  Are they raised not to consider the risk properly?  Are they naive or overly optimistic? 

Dentists make good money, right?  Is the math favorable in the long term?

use2betrix

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That’s a lot of money, but if it’s very good schools and they’re a good dentist, it can easily pay off in the long run. Even at a relatively low $200k/yr, they could pay it off in 5-6 years if they really worked at it. Good dentists that own their own practices could make 2-3x that amount.

Consider that some college degrees people may never make more than $50k-$75k.

Metalcat

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This level of debt is crushing for a new dentist.
Absolutely crushing.

They will likely not enjoy their career as a result. There are complex reasons for that, but I would be seriously concerned for this person's long term mental health.

I say this as someone who is literally paid to talk to medical professionals about their finances and career paths.

BTDretire

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This level of debt is crushing for a new dentist.
Absolutely crushing.

They will likely not enjoy their career as a result. There are complex reasons for that, but I would be seriously concerned for this person's long term mental health.

I say this as someone who is literally paid to talk to medical professionals about their finances and career paths.

 I have a daughter in Dental school, I saw the income number $200k and then 2 to 3 times that. What is a reasonable number for a dentist having their own practice. I'm thinking the $200k is closer, but that might even be high.
Edit: I did find this from 2016, https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/dentist/salary
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 08:05:39 AM by BTDretire »

Metalcat

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This level of debt is crushing for a new dentist.
Absolutely crushing.

They will likely not enjoy their career as a result. There are complex reasons for that, but I would be seriously concerned for this person's long term mental health.

I say this as someone who is literally paid to talk to medical professionals about their finances and career paths.

 I have a daughter in Dental school, I saw the income number $200k and then 2 to 3 times that. What is a reasonable number for a dentist having their own practice. I'm thinking the $200k is closer, but that might even be high.
Edit: I did find this from 2016, https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/dentist/salary

Averages in dentistry are utterly meaningless as most are incorporated, so their actual numbers are completely obscured.

With a lot of markets being severely oversaturated, with the increasing domination of corporations, the ever inflating cost of buying practices, and exploding overheads, it's hard to say what an owner dentist can expect to make, and what conditions they may have to tolerate in order to make it.

Note, I never said that this Reddit guy wouldn't be able to make this investment pay off, I said I would be concerned for his mental health and ability to be happy in his career.

I also said that my reasons for saying so are complex.

ender

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As someone who didn't take a pile of loans out, partly due to my own caution and partly since I wasn't headed in a highly academic direction, I am curious how people end up stumbling into this ditch.  Are they raised not to consider the risk properly?  Are they naive or overly optimistic? 

Dentists make good money, right?  Is the math favorable in the long term?

My guess is they had influences in their entire childhood/college careers telling them that "you'll make a lot of money it'll be fine!" and never had anyone even mention the idea of being financially responsible.

I have always wondered what percentage of the ludicrous student loan amounts are the result of parents "helping" their kids by telling them it's a good idea. But then again, maybe I don't want to know.

Dentists make decent money. But I don't think that many have a spare $100k+ in salary (less taxes, it'd be their income) they can spend just on their student loan payments for.. a long time.

A friend of ours owns a practice still only makes around $200k/year. I say only, because with minimum student loans, that'd be considerably less than $100k/year of actual salary for them while they pay down the loans.  For a long time, too.

Many dentists who own their own practice end up with significant debt, too, for the building/equipment and potentially the practice too (if they took over from another dentist).

Bloop Bloop

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Damn.

Expensive tuition is one of those things that just doesn't make sense to me. I think if you can't win a scholarship or subsidised place you're better off focussing on other ways to earn a high income.

And dentistry, as far as I know, has a fairly low ceiling anyway - not sure it'd ever be bang for buck if you're paying that much for a course.

Metalcat

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Damn.

Expensive tuition is one of those things that just doesn't make sense to me. I think if you can't win a scholarship or subsidised place you're better off focussing on other ways to earn a high income.

And dentistry, as far as I know, has a fairly low ceiling anyway - not sure it'd ever be bang for buck if you're paying that much for a course.

I don't know about the US, but there really aren't many scholarships for dental/medical schools in Canada.

You are right though, the ceiling is fairly low. Some will be wildly successful and make many millions, but those are people who are naturally incredibly industrious and entrepreneurial and would probably actually make more in other industries.

One thing to keep in perspective as well is that although he may be able to generate a high income, and may be able to do so under decent conditions, by the time he pays off this debt, he'll have spent ~a decade after undergrad working very long hours under insane stress, unable to afford much, just to get to basically zero.

It's a lot.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 05:57:09 PM by Malkynn »

iris lily

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As someone who didn't take a pile of loans out, partly due to my own caution and partly since I wasn't headed in a highly academic direction, I am curious how people end up stumbling into this ditch.  Are they raised not to consider the risk properly?  Are they naive or overly optimistic? 

Dentists make good money, right?  Is the math favorable in the long term?

My guess is they had influences in their entire childhood/college careers telling them that "you'll make a lot of money it'll be fine!" and never had anyone even mention the idea of being financially responsible.

I have always wondered what percentage of the ludicrous student loan amounts are the result of parents "helping" their kids by telling them it's a good idea. But then again, maybe I don't want to know.

Dentists make decent money. But I don't think that many have a spare $100k+ in salary (less taxes, it'd be their income) they can spend just on their student loan payments for.. a long time.

A friend of ours owns a practice still only makes around $200k/year. I say only, because with minimum student loans, that'd be considerably less than $100k/year of actual salary for them while they pay down the loans.  For a long time, too.

Many dentists who own their own practice end up with significant debt, too, for the building/equipment and potentially the practice too (if they took over from another dentist).

I had exactly this same thought about this student likely having unrealistic, naive parents.

hops

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I don't know about the US, but there really aren't many scholarships for dental/medical schools in Canada.

I'm not sure about dental school, which is a very different entity than medical school in the US, but some medical schools offer merit or need-based assistance. The amounts are often small and sometimes those scholarships aren't well-advertised. My wife had no idea until years after graduation that her very expensive research school was known for helping students. In her circle it was more common to go the MD/PhD route to graduate without debt. I always laugh when Dave Ramsey advises callers to do that, though, because it's much, much harder to accomplish than he makes it sound.

Dental school here seems to be going the way of pharmacy school and optometry school -- too many institutions that are in it for the money churning out too many graduates. My dentist is a great businesswoman but oversaturation's becoming a problem here and she canceled a construction deal on a building of her own after a big chain came to town. Interestingly, part of why she chose dentistry was her siblings were all MDs and she didn't want to delay earning for as many years as they did with residencies and fellowships.

Laura33

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This is the racket of "professional" schools in the US -- medical, dental, law, veterinary, etc.  People know these professions can make a lot of money, and so the schools can charge a lot because of the promise of future high salaries and easy payback.  And the students/parents don't have the experience to understand the actual distribution of those high salaries, or that many of the highest salaries require even more years of study/working at low pay to gain the experience, etc.

IIRC, much of the increase started when states cut funding to their public universities.  The thinking was that, if a college degree is so good at improving people's long-term employment/salary prospects, then the state should subsidize less of that, and the students should pay more of the costs since they reap the long-term benefits.  And under that mindset, the professional schools are seriously low-hanging fruit, because they usually offer, on average, the highest salaries long-term.

I actually don't mind the higher costs of professional schools nearly as much as I mind the high undergrad tuition, because these professions can be extremely lucrative.  What I do mind is the misrepresentation/misunderstanding of how many people actually earn those salaries, what the loans cost, all the extra study/low-pay work required if you want to be that super-high-end cardiologist, and what actually happens to the other 99% of kids who can't do that for one reason or another.  Vet school is particularly bad at this -- it costs the same as med school, but the vast majority of vets make $60-80K/yr.  I would be much more inclined to something like the Australian system, where (I think) the payback is based on a % salary for a certain number of years, so the risk is not all on the naive kid/family.

roomtempmayo

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Everything @Laura33 is spot on.

Here are the basic steps of how someone in what used to be a public service profession ends up over a half million dollars in debt by graduation.

1) 1940s-1960s, the introduction of private health insurance during WWII creates market and salary inflation in health industries.

2) 1970s-1980s, education in those fields remains publicly subsidized at high levels, leading to a large surplus value accruing to medical professionals.  People realize this is a great gig if you can get it (high income + low schooling costs), and people pursue it in droves.  "It's a good gig if you can get it."

3) 1990s-2013, schools raise tuition to capture some of the surplus that had previously accrued to graduates.  Public funding is pulled back in a major way, since the public no longer thinks of these high paying professional jobs as public service.  Tuition goes up more to compensate.  The gig gets less good, especially in the early years, but the general public still thinks it's a gold mine.

4) 2005, GradPlus loans provide an unlimited, nondischargable line of credit to professional students.

5) 2013, interest rates on federal student loans after graduation are doubled from 3.4 to 6.8%.  They have since declined some.

6) Circa 2014, the Reddit poster in question walks across the stage at college graduation.  He might be the first in his family to go to college, but maybe even more likely his parents made reasonable money working in a cube somewhere that they blew entirely on a big house and leasing new SUVs.  Their incomes haven't grown in real dollars for decades, so they're saving less and financing more to enable their expectation of lifestyle inflation over time.  They paid little or nothing toward his college (because big houses and SUVs), and so he's already in debt 50k+.  The parents don't tell the kid that dentistry used to be a good gig but it's less good now (in the unlikely event that they know), or that it's a good gig for those who get parental help, but not for him since he's on his own.  Nope, instead if they tell him anything at all, they tell him to go for it and the finances will work out in the end.  So he goes to dental school, and ends up funding a large portion of it with GradPlus loans.

7) 2020, the poster in question's unsubsidized undergrad loans have been accruing 5+% interest for the past five years.  Plus, he's taken on $50k in tuition, plus $25k in living expenses each year during school.  So, yeah, he's in for $500k+ now.  As @Malkynn mentions, he may very well be able to pay off the debt, but the next ten years are going to be tough: A small town one man dental practice in my area recently changed hands for over a million dollars.

We've been constructing this giant game of Mousetrap haphazardly for 75 years, and it's just now starting to go off.


HBFIRE

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My sister is graduating this year from dental school, with about half this amount of debt.  I'm very concerned for her.  That said, I'm also very proud of her.  She completed her bachelors and dental school in her 30's (starting from scratch) while raising two children.  No idea how she did it, she's the strongest person I know.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 10:17:01 AM by HBFIRE »

chicagomeg

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Meanwhile, 24 hours later: https://www.reddit.com/r/StudentLoans/comments/e72ozm/should_i_go_to_dental_school/

"If you love the profession go for it. There will always be a need for dentists. They have a better work life balance than many working professionals. Live like a student, get a roommate and you’ll be fine."

I don't even have the energy to argue with this person, but this is EXACTLY the mentality that leads to that kind of debt.

Metalcat

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Meanwhile, 24 hours later: https://www.reddit.com/r/StudentLoans/comments/e72ozm/should_i_go_to_dental_school/

"If you love the profession go for it. There will always be a need for dentists. They have a better work life balance than many working professionals. Live like a student, get a roommate and you’ll be fine."

I don't even have the energy to argue with this person, but this is EXACTLY the mentality that leads to that kind of debt.

I talk to a lot of students considering dentistry and medicine and I really try to hammer into them that if they have the capacity to truly love those careers, then they probably have the capacity to love many careers, so anticipating loving it does not alone justify the cost. The cost needs to be assessed rationally like anything else.

roomtempmayo

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I talk to a lot of students considering dentistry and medicine and I really try to hammer into them that if they have the capacity to truly love those careers, then they probably have the capacity to love many careers, so anticipating loving it does not alone justify the cost. The cost needs to be assessed rationally like anything else.

I think one of the issues we face is a lack of perceived off ramps from the health professions.  Dentistry and pharmacy are already the Plan B to med school for many. 

The Plan C options that might pay as much or more, e.g. going into the medical industry, seem scarily ill-defined to students and parents.  Nobody writes the equivalent US News article about how an outside account manager for a major pharma company with a BA and 10 years experience might clear $3-500k.  Students and their parents want what they perceive to be the well defined, sure thing, not the thing that might work out ten years from now.

Breaking the bias toward bad grad school choices is going to need to involve convincing students and their parents that going out there and taking some risks is a good option sometimes.

BTW, in my corner of the world, it's often the students who can least afford the expensive grad school who are most attracted to the narrative of security and certainty it provides.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 03:11:13 PM by caleb »

Daisyedwards800

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That's true but account manager means sales right?  Most people know if they'd be good at sales or not by college. 

Metalcat

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That's true but account manager means sales right?  Most people know if they'd be good at sales or not by college.

And yet they have absolutely no effing clue if they'll be any good at medicine or dentistry.

oldtoyota

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If I was 500K in debt, I would not be able to enjoy my life.

After all that work and education, I would not want to live in a group house and live close to the bone. Sounds awful.

roomtempmayo

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That's true but account manager means sales right?  Most people know if they'd be good at sales or not by college.

And yet they have absolutely no effing clue if they'll be any good at medicine or dentistry.

Enjoyment aside, taking on a half million in debt right now for a health professions degree seems like a gigantic gamble that the private insurance status quo with the big payouts will remain in place for the next 30-40 years.  Imagine what a bad bet that would be if the American system were replaced with something akin to the UK's NHS where the top of the MD payscale is 107,000 GBP (and starts just north of 40,000 GBP). 

Bloop Bloop

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Wow. Why would anyone even want to be a doctor on that sort of money?

Metalcat

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If I was 500K in debt, I would not be able to enjoy my life.

After all that work and education, I would not want to live in a group house and live close to the bone. Sounds awful.

Well, my household debt was 420K, and we paid that off, saved 100K, bought and furnished a condo, all within 6 years, with me only working part time for 3 of those.

As I said above, it's not really the black and white finances that are the problem, it's the career complications that come with needing to generate a certain amount every month and not having the flexibility to take hits to your cash flow.

Again, the details of this are complex, and different between the various medical fields, but basically, if money is the main focus, there are pretty easy trade offs to make to ensure better incomes. It's just that those trade offs may make the entire ordeal of becoming and being a medical professional not feel worth it.

Hence the rampant burnout, addiction, and suicides in these fields.

Bucksandreds

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I'm a dentist working in public health. No way could I have paid that off. This person will be able to pay it by working 5 days per week plus Saturday mornings in the right employed spot. It's not hard to make $250,000 per year as a hired dentist if you're willing to see 5-10 extra patients that you reasonably should per day and over diagnose (doing unnecessary fillings, doing "deep cleanings" on people who don't really need it.) A general dentist who's already paid off their practice after a decade or more but cares as much for their patients as their own pocketbooks probably averages in the mid $200,000s. But remember, even $250,000 per year isn't $250,000 to a private practice dentist as it is an employee. A dentist almost always buys their own health insurance. A bronze level family plan might set the person back $1500-$2000 of pretax money (you have to pay tax before you buy your own health insurance plan.)  I paid $220,000 back in loans in 9 years and that left me with the equivalent income of someone making $80,000- $90,000 or so per year. Ohio State dental school graduates today, from talking to some recently are averaging about $300,000 in loans when they're done. It's still totally doable. The problem is most 25 years olds get done with 20 plus years of schooling and want to spend a lot. That encourages some of the shady aspects were seeing in dentistry these days.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 09:37:48 AM by Bucksandreds »

Daisyedwards800

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That's true but account manager means sales right?  Most people know if they'd be good at sales or not by college.

And yet they have absolutely no effing clue if they'll be any good at medicine or dentistry.

Right but there's a clear path to a reward there even if you don't have people skills.

roomtempmayo

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That's true but account manager means sales right?  Most people know if they'd be good at sales or not by college.

And yet they have absolutely no effing clue if they'll be any good at medicine or dentistry.

Right but there's a clear path to a reward there even if you don't have people skills.

I think it's going to be tough to maintain a dental practice without people skills.

At bottom, most professions require a fair amount of soft skills, performance ability, and salesmanship.  Not smarmy used car salesmanship, but professional salesmanship nonetheless.

Daisyedwards800

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Agreed - my point was that in a medical field, you don't need to rely 100% on your superior people skills to earn $300k, while as an account manager you have to be a superstar salesy person.

Metalcat

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That's true but account manager means sales right?  Most people know if they'd be good at sales or not by college.

And yet they have absolutely no effing clue if they'll be any good at medicine or dentistry.

Right but there's a clear path to a reward there even if you don't have people skills.

Oh, I get why people think it's a good idea to push their kids towards these careers. It's fucking reckless and the information is readily available to see what the serious challenges are, but I still get why they do it.

The thing with almost any other career path is that you can find out you don't love it and you can leave. It's incredibly hard to leave a career where give up years of income to train for it, and then spend years digging yourself out of a mountain of debt. By the time you can even afford to quit, you've worked for 10-20 years, are burnt and exhausted, and have substantially less NW than someone who chose to be a teacher.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 03:23:33 PM by Malkynn »

Calvawt

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I'm a dentist working in public health. No way could I have paid that off. This person will be able to pay it by working 5 days per week plus Saturday mornings in the right employed spot. It's not hard to make $250,000 per year as a hired dentist if you're willing to see 5-10 extra patients that you reasonably should per day and over diagnose (doing unnecessary fillings, doing "deep cleanings" on people who don't really need it.) A general dentist who's already paid off their practice after a decade or more but cares as much for their patients as their own pocketbooks probably averages in the mid $200,000s. But remember, even $250,000 per year isn't $250,000 to a private practice dentist as it is an employee. A dentist almost always buys their own health insurance. A bronze level family plan might set the person back $1500-$2000 of pretax money (you have to pay tax before you buy your own health insurance plan.)  I paid $220,000 back in loans in 9 years and that left me with the equivalent income of someone making $80,000- $90,000 or so per year. Ohio State dental school graduates today, from talking to some recently are averaging about $300,000 in loans when they're done. It's still totally doable. The problem is most 25 years olds get done with 20 plus years of schooling and want to spend a lot. That encourages some of the shady aspects were seeing in dentistry these days.

This is much more accurate.  I work for a large healthcare org in California and we see many dentists coming out with $250-350k in debt.  It sounds like a lot until you see they can get $50k of loan repayment ($25k for 2 years) for working in underserved areas and then they start in the mid $100,000 range.  Tenured dentists can get well over $200k in an employment model.  I don't see a lot of private dentists making $500k, there is too much competition and rates from insurances are not going up, but costs go up every year.

Bottom line, is you have to plan to pay it back aggressively or it can be a weight for a long, long time.  Workign extra shifts, seeing extra patients, etc can earn a dentist a lot extra, but many are not motivated to function that way. 

In some ways its a bit like spending $100k to be a social worker make $30k.  If you love what you do, it can work.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!