Time millionaires

[dodojojo]

Not necessarily a FI article but Fire-adjacent?

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/oct/12/time-millionaires-meet-the-people-pursuing-the-pleasure-of-leisure 

[Morning Glory]

Great article. This part really struck me:

"As a result, leisure has become a dirty word. Any time we scrounge away from work is to be filled with efficient blasts of high-intensity exercise, or other improving activities, such as meditation or prepping nutritionally balanced meals. Our hobbies are monetised side hustles; our homes informal hotels; our cars are repurposed for ride-sharing apps. We holiday with the solemn purpose of returning recharged, ready for ever-more punishing overwork. Doing nothing – simply savouring the miracle of our existence in this world – is a luxury afforded only to the respectably retired, or children."

[boarder42]

Great article and 100% what FI is about.  At the end of the day its choice of what to do with your time and to control it yourself.

[simonsez]

That was a good read.  I do think Gavin should try some jobs that aren't in the service industry, though.  I get life is short and service industry is not for everyone (especially cubicle life) but the example person should keep trying to find more meaningful work - unless they can retire.  Just sounds like a person with little or zero appreciation for the amazing life that exists built on the billions of prior humans.  Can Gavin grow his own food?  Can he fix things?  Can he create things?  Is he independent?  If not, he should find something more meaningful to pay the bills and save for the future (then again, his boss is satisfied so...).

"Binstead is a recovering workaholic. Pre-pandemic, he ran a 50-cover wine bar in central Sheffield."

I don't know what a 50-cover wine bar is.  Does this mean the bar stocks 50 different wine labels?  Does this mean they charge a $50 cover fee to enter?  I guess from the context whatever it is, it means a lot to manage?

[Jenny Wren]

I don't know what a 50-cover wine bar is.  Does this mean the bar stocks 50 different wine labels?  Does this mean they charge a $50 cover fee to enter?  I guess from the context whatever it is, it means a lot to manage?

A cover is how many patrons are served at any one time. For example, a restaurant may have 20 tables and be able to cover (seat) 50 patrons.

[Adventine]

I loved this article. Thank you for sharing. I can relate a great deal, because I'm currently on an extended sabbatical / a very relaxed job hunt. One of my main criteria for saying NO to jobs is any expectation of overtime or being on call past normal working hours.

[chemistk]

I enjoyed reading this - mostly because I have been trying to break myself of the very habits described in here. I've felt, especially over the past decade, that if I'm not doing something productive at any given moment, then I'm slacking/failing.

It's about high time work is de-coupled from morality. As much as the oligarchic elite would like to demonstrate otherwise, we are not creatures that exist to earn an income (be that what it may) until we die.

I would be immensely happy if, in my lifetime, I got to witness a shift away from the fear of not having enough money and the activities that fear generates to a fear that individuals aren't maximizing their fleeting time doing things are fulfilling to them (and not detrimental to society).

[simonsez]

I don't know what a 50-cover wine bar is.  Does this mean the bar stocks 50 different wine labels?  Does this mean they charge a $50 cover fee to enter?  I guess from the context whatever it is, it means a lot to manage?

A cover is how many patrons are served at any one time. For example, a restaurant may have 20 tables and be able to cover (seat) 50 patrons.

Ah, thanks @Botany Bae , of course that makes way more sense now in retrospect! 

Who goes to a wine bar at 10 am though?  I know it's not the point of the article but just freaking open at noon or some time in the afternoon to make life less hectic if you're the person running it.  They're probably just doing what the owner wants but anyway...

[dodojojo]

Maybe he's going in at 10 to do prep work and not necessarily open the winery?

I've gotta work through my inertia and be a time millionaire. I work from home and the amount of time I have wasted being "virtually present" is embarrassing.

[boarder42]

Maybe he's going in at 10 to do prep work and not necessarily open the winery?

I've gotta work through my inertia and be a time millionaire. I work from home and the amount of time I have wasted being "virtually present" is embarrassing.

Agreed. I know I'm leaving in 2 months and even this is hard for me.

[FIRE Artist]

I don't know what a 50-cover wine bar is.  Does this mean the bar stocks 50 different wine labels?  Does this mean they charge a $50 cover fee to enter?  I guess from the context whatever it is, it means a lot to manage?

A cover is how many patrons are served at any one time. For example, a restaurant may have 20 tables and be able to cover (seat) 50 patrons.

Ah, thanks @Botany Bae , of course that makes way more sense now in retrospect! 

Who goes to a wine bar at 10 am though?  I know it's not the point of the article but just freaking open at noon or some time in the afternoon to make life less hectic if you're the person running it.  They're probably just doing what the owner wants but anyway...

Probably to be there to receive deliveries amongst other management duties. 

[Dee18]

I had a complete negative reaction to this part of the article:
"In every job he has ever had, Gavin has shirked. When he worked in a call centre, he would mute the phone, rather than answer it. ... His best-ever job was as a civil servant. He would take an hour for breakfast, and two for lunch. No one ever said anything. All his colleagues were at it, too."

Who among us has not had the frustration of waiting an eternity on hold for necessary information?  Or trying to contact a government official for something important?  (Like how a daughter stuck in China during the pandemic can renew a car registration without appearing in person.) I worked in government for 9 years.  It was a job I loved in a position where I got great experience, but the work week was usually 60+ hours with no overtime.  For the rest of my working years I had a job where salary was not based on hours worked, but on getting the job done.  I agree that more jobs should be like that.  But I find nothing admirable in cheating the citizens paying your salary or your cheating your employer.  And the comment "all his colleagues were at it too" sounds like an attempt to rationalize poor behavior.  It brought to mind my students' caught in a cheating scheme who said the same thing, despite the fact that only 5 out of the entire large class were involved.

[exige]

thanks for sharing loved it

[dadbod]

Good, if depressing, read as I wait for my fourth work meeting of the day while on vacation. 

[scantee]

Good, if depressing, read as I wait for my fourth work meeting of the day while on vacation.

Remember that this is a choice you’re making. Your job almost certainly isn’t important enough to justify this.

[joe189man]

I had a complete negative reaction to this part of the article:
"In every job he has ever had, Gavin has shirked. When he worked in a call centre, he would mute the phone, rather than answer it. ... His best-ever job was as a civil servant. He would take an hour for breakfast, and two for lunch. No one ever said anything. All his colleagues were at it, too."

Who among us has not had the frustration of waiting an eternity on hold for necessary information?  Or trying to contact a government official for something important?  (Like how a daughter stuck in China during the pandemic can renew a car registration without appearing in person.) I worked in government for 9 years.  It was a job I loved in a position where I got great experience, but the work week was usually 60+ hours with no overtime.  For the rest of my working years I had a job where salary was not based on hours worked, but on getting the job done.  I agree that more jobs should be like that.  But I find nothing admirable in cheating the citizens paying your salary or your cheating your employer.  And the comment "all his colleagues were at it too" sounds like an attempt to rationalize poor behavior.  It brought to mind my students' caught in a cheating scheme who said the same thing, despite the fact that only 5 out of the entire large class were involved.

i dont like it either,

however every job has your A, B and C Team players. A team crushes it day in and day out, B team is good but not putting in overtime, C team shows up and half asses things but is a warm body that serves a function.

But i love the idea of being time rich and is my main focus in striving to save and invest

[Runrooster]

Great article. This part really struck me:

Any time we scrounge away from work is to be filled with efficient blasts of high-intensity exercise, or other improving activities, such as meditation or prepping nutritionally balanced meals.

I liked this sentence especially.  I used to be an exercise-aholic, doing upwards of 2 hours a day.  I cut back about a year ago when the time change made it dark so early, and then never went back.  Sure, I end up watching TV on the couch instead of on the treadmill, and my family hates my current choice, but I still walk at lunch and I'm waiting to see the fallout.

The other thing is, if not nutritionally balanced, there is a pressure to make gourmet meals, or at least complicated ones.  How many cuisines are we (is it just me) expected to master?  Sometimes its entertaining, but so much its excess work for something that gets eaten in 15 minutes.  My sister likes to try new recipes, which is fine, but she then likes to text me recipes she hasn't tried, like I don't have the same internet she does.  Then when she throws dinner parties, there will be an hour of ordering people around to help.  Then the text message pictures of what she cooked or ate elsewhere, so much drama around what she puts in her mouth.

[wageslave23]

Great article. This part really struck me:

Any time we scrounge away from work is to be filled with efficient blasts of high-intensity exercise, or other improving activities, such as meditation or prepping nutritionally balanced meals.

I liked this sentence especially.  I used to be an exercise-aholic, doing upwards of 2 hours a day.  I cut back about a year ago when the time change made it dark so early, and then never went back.  Sure, I end up watching TV on the couch instead of on the treadmill, and my family hates my current choice, but I still walk at lunch and I'm waiting to see the fallout.

The other thing is, if not nutritionally balanced, there is a pressure to make gourmet meals, or at least complicated ones.  How many cuisines are we (is it just me) expected to master?  Sometimes its entertaining, but so much its excess work for something that gets eaten in 15 minutes.  My sister likes to try new recipes, which is fine, but she then likes to text me recipes she hasn't tried, like I don't have the same internet she does.  Then when she throws dinner parties, there will be an hour of ordering people around to help.  Then the text message pictures of what she cooked or ate elsewhere, so much drama around what she puts in her mouth.

Amen to that. I can't stand to believe that our lives should revolve around planning meals, preparing meals, eating, cleaning up afterwards.  It can take up 50% of your waking hours if you let it. I like to think I have better things to do.

[Metalcat]

Great article. This part really struck me:

Any time we scrounge away from work is to be filled with efficient blasts of high-intensity exercise, or other improving activities, such as meditation or prepping nutritionally balanced meals.

I liked this sentence especially.  I used to be an exercise-aholic, doing upwards of 2 hours a day.  I cut back about a year ago when the time change made it dark so early, and then never went back.  Sure, I end up watching TV on the couch instead of on the treadmill, and my family hates my current choice, but I still walk at lunch and I'm waiting to see the fallout.

The other thing is, if not nutritionally balanced, there is a pressure to make gourmet meals, or at least complicated ones.  How many cuisines are we (is it just me) expected to master?  Sometimes its entertaining, but so much its excess work for something that gets eaten in 15 minutes.  My sister likes to try new recipes, which is fine, but she then likes to text me recipes she hasn't tried, like I don't have the same internet she does.  Then when she throws dinner parties, there will be an hour of ordering people around to help.  Then the text message pictures of what she cooked or ate elsewhere, so much drama around what she puts in her mouth.

Amen to that. I can't stand to believe that our lives should revolve around planning meals, preparing meals, eating, cleaning up afterwards.  It can take up 50% of your waking hours if you let it. I like to think I have better things to do.

I cook about 3-4hrs/week, and that feels like A LOT most weeks.

[Runrooster]

You've got me beat by a mile: 

3.5 hours breakfast 7x a week - omelet, toast, tea, peel apples every day
2 hours grocery shopping - Indian store, produce store, regular grocery store (that's a good week)
1 hour pork butt - plus the time I spent researching recipes since this is only my second time making one, enormous yield
2 hours idli/sambar - 12 plus servings, plus 20 minutes time to grind rice/ thal
2 hours chopping - caregiver does this: onions/garlic, pineapple2, cantalope, squash, pepper, puree tomato, peel/ puree fruit for Mom
3 hours various veg - salad2 (3 servings each), squash, pepper, cauliflower, sprouts - light cause we ate sambar half week
2 hr-pack lunch, including fruit, veg.

15.5hr not including clean up time, prep roti 2x day, afternoon tea, bake pizza

And I think we eat a pretty simple menu in general, with no fancy meals this week.

[boarder42]

Great article. This part really struck me:

Any time we scrounge away from work is to be filled with efficient blasts of high-intensity exercise, or other improving activities, such as meditation or prepping nutritionally balanced meals.

I liked this sentence especially.  I used to be an exercise-aholic, doing upwards of 2 hours a day.  I cut back about a year ago when the time change made it dark so early, and then never went back.  Sure, I end up watching TV on the couch instead of on the treadmill, and my family hates my current choice, but I still walk at lunch and I'm waiting to see the fallout.

The other thing is, if not nutritionally balanced, there is a pressure to make gourmet meals, or at least complicated ones.  How many cuisines are we (is it just me) expected to master?  Sometimes its entertaining, but so much its excess work for something that gets eaten in 15 minutes.  My sister likes to try new recipes, which is fine, but she then likes to text me recipes she hasn't tried, like I don't have the same internet she does.  Then when she throws dinner parties, there will be an hour of ordering people around to help.  Then the text message pictures of what she cooked or ate elsewhere, so much drama around what she puts in her mouth.

Amen to that. I can't stand to believe that our lives should revolve around planning meals, preparing meals, eating, cleaning up afterwards.  It can take up 50% of your waking hours if you let it. I like to think I have better things to do.

I cook about 3-4hrs/week, and that feels like A LOT most weeks.

I personally love cooking and cook very good meals. And it does not take anywhere near 50% of my waking hours. I've never understood the complete about clean up. This is maybe 3-4 minutes. Per meal.

[Morning Glory]

I personally love cooking and cook very good meals. And it does not take anywhere near 50% of my waking hours. I've never understood the complete about clean up. This is maybe 3-4 minutes. Per meal.

I think I remember from another thread that you are going to be a dad soon? If so you will understand the cleanup a year from now.

I think what the article was getting at with the food thing was not that too much time is spent cooking, but rather that there is just more awareness of nutrition than there used to be, so many people wouldn't dream of eating the kind of simple meals that were common when we were kids. My mom worked so we got spaghetti with sauce from a jar or maybe hot dogs and potato chips and that was considered perfectly normal and acceptable. Her nod to health was forcing us to drink milk every day (I am lactose intolerant). Now there is just more pressure on working parents in particular to make all these homemade perfect nutritionally balanced meals and also breastfeed until the kid is a year old and keep the house in perfect order and never let their precious spawn ingest any "toxins." In America we've always had a culture of dualism too so the thinking goes if it isn't perfectly balanced and organic and grass-fed and made-from-scratch then you might as well throw your hands in the air and buy a bucket of KFC because there is nothing in between.

[boarder42]

I personally love cooking and cook very good meals. And it does not take anywhere near 50% of my waking hours. I've never understood the complete about clean up. This is maybe 3-4 minutes. Per meal.

I think I remember from another thread that you are going to be a dad soon? If so you will understand the cleanup a year from now.

I think what the article was getting at with the food thing was not that too much time is spent cooking, but rather that there is just more awareness of nutrition than there used to be, so many people wouldn't dream of eating the kind of simple meals that were common when we were kids. My mom worked so we got spaghetti with sauce from a jar or maybe hot dogs and potato chips and that was considered perfectly normal and acceptable. Her nod to health was forcing us to drink milk every day (I am lactose intolerant). Now there is just more pressure on working parents in particular to make all these homemade perfect nutritionally balanced meals and also breastfeed until the kid is a year old and keep the house in perfect order and never let their precious spawn ingest any "toxins." In America we've always had a culture of dualism too so the thinking goes if it isn't perfectly balanced and organic and grass-fed and made-from-scratch then you might as well throw your hands in the air and buy a bucket of KFC because there is nothing in between.

I have 2 kids already  wife fed both with breast milk til their second birthdays and pumped for a year to do it 2nd one isn't 2 yet but we filled more than a 12 cuft deep freeze with milk so it will make it .  Kids are kids. Sometimes they like what I cook sometimes they're getting ramen bc it's the only thing they will eat.

We both commuted and worked with our first. I came home and cooked dinner with the kid in the high chair most nights. I still cook in batches so it would be a few dinners or lunches. Second was born in vivid. Got to work from home then I took 12 weeks off wife retired now I'm back to work til year end.

I mean like I said I enjoy cooking. Have piles of meals I can make in my head and just shop loss leaders and protein/produce sales each week

[clarkfan1979]

Great article. This part really struck me:

"As a result, leisure has become a dirty word. Any time we scrounge away from work is to be filled with efficient blasts of high-intensity exercise, or other improving activities, such as meditation or prepping nutritionally balanced meals. Our hobbies are monetised side hustles; our homes informal hotels; our cars are repurposed for ride-sharing apps. We holiday with the solemn purpose of returning recharged, ready for ever-more punishing overwork. Doing nothing – simply savouring the miracle of our existence in this world – is a luxury afforded only to the respectably retired, or children."

From my personal experience, people who work 50+ hours/week do not engage in the shared economy as a provider. They don't rent out their house or car. People are more likely to participate in the shared economy as a provider when they work part-time (20 hours/week or less) or don't work at all.

I didn't like the beginning when the guy was cutting corners at work. That is not the only way to attain leisure.

I'm a big fan of being "time" rich. As a result, the article didn't completely suck.

[Morning Glory]

Great article. This part really struck me:

"As a result, leisure has become a dirty word. Any time we scrounge away from work is to be filled with efficient blasts of high-intensity exercise, or other improving activities, such as meditation or prepping nutritionally balanced meals. Our hobbies are monetised side hustles; our homes informal hotels; our cars are repurposed for ride-sharing apps. We holiday with the solemn purpose of returning recharged, ready for ever-more punishing overwork. Doing nothing – simply savouring the miracle of our existence in this world – is a luxury afforded only to the respectably retired, or children."

From my personal experience, people who work 50+ hours/week do not engage in the shared economy as a provider. They don't rent out their house or car. People are more likely to participate in the shared economy as a provider when they work part-time (20 hours/week or less) or don't work at all.

I didn't like the beginning when the guy was cutting corners at work. That is not the only way to attain leisure.

I'm a big fan of being "time" rich. As a result, the article didn't completely suck.

I agree that the guy at the beginning was not a great example. It would have been better if they used someone who had figured out a more efficient way to do their work instead of someone who was just shirking. I have seen people who work 50+ hours and do side hustles or continue their education on top of that, or have roommates.

[bmjohnson35]

Timely and entertaining opinion article.  Although I agree with a lot of the content, I also have great respect for solid work ethic.  Being productive is no more evil than leisure.  Society has been going in the wrong direction for a long time and although  it's never mentioned in the article, consumerism is at the heart of society's issues. 

I think life is about balance and there is no one size fits all.  The right percentage of productivity vs. leisure vs. self improvement vs any other attribute will vary from person to person and will likely change as their life unfolds. 

[2Birds1Stone]

Ha, what a fantastic read! Figuring this out ~5 years ago was life changing. The goal has always been time > money since then.

[Lifestyle Deflation]

Nice article. Time for oneself is so crucial. One thing I've learned about myself is that I need "things" I'm working on in my personal life, or else I get depressed. Not a sad depressed, but a low-energy, low effectiveness sort of depressed. A state where things happen "to" me instead of me making things happen.


For some, work fills this gap and helps alleviate depression. For me, I need my own time to do my own thing and feel like I'm in a lifestyle of self-improvement. That's one of the biggest reasons I got into FIRE.