Til Debt Do Us Part

[5catlady]

Gail lives nearby and she is just as much of a straight talker when calling out the local mayor! 

[GrumpyPenguin]

Gail lives nearby and she is just as much of a straight talker when calling out the local mayor!

I would LOVE to see that!

[5catlady]

Follow her on Twitter if you'd like to get an idea of what she's really like.  I think she's awesome and a great advocate but many find her overwhelming.

[Zamboni]

Okay okay, here is where I admit that we had a milk box on our stoop when I was a kid . . . everyone had them, and the local dairy delivered filled bottles for the number of empty bottles you put out. So bags of milks seems crazy weird to me.

I have not been updating this although I have continued watching. They were getting  repetitive, but then I hit S2E13 THE WEDDING EPISODE! Slightly new format, and this one is really hitting close to home since I'm thinking about tying the knot myself. Fortunately my other half and I are older and wiser than these kids, and there's always inspiration in Gail's firm but kind manner.

[Laserjet3051]

Okay okay, here is where I admit that we had a milk box on our stoop when I was a kid . . . everyone had them, and the local dairy delivered filled bottles for the number of empty bottles you put out. So bags of milks seems crazy weird to me.

I have not been updating this although I have continued watching. They were getting  repetitive, but then I hit S2E13 THE WEDDING EPISODE! Slightly new format, and this one is really hitting close to home since I'm thinking about tying the knot myself. Fortunately my other half and I are older and wiser than these kids, and there's always inspiration in Gail's firm but kind manner.

Wait until you get to Season 4 and see the problems "Stinky" brings to the table.

[Zamboni]

This seems like a dare to jump ahead to the stinky episode. Hmmmm.

Okay, edited to add that I am now watching the episode with Stink. He is a pretty boy.

But right off the top I gots to say this: does literally every dude in Canada play hockey? And golf? Kind of a winter fun/summer fun combo pack up there? And where are all the hockey playing Canadian chicks? I mean, I get why the chicks aren't golfing, cause golf sucks.

[Goldielocks]

This seems like a dare to jump ahead to the stinky episode. Hmmmm.

Okay, edited to add that I am now watching the episode with Stink. He is a pretty boy.

But right off the top I gots to say this: does literally every dude in Canada play hockey? And golf? Kind of a winter fun/summer fun combo pack up there? And where are all the hockey playing Canadian chicks? I mean, I get why the chicks aren't golfing, cause golf sucks.

Hah.  Women golf.   
You forgot curling. !!!  Oh the drama at work when curling season overlaps with golf.   People that don't play hockey curl.  Co ed teams.   Lots of adult leagues for all these sports.

Bowling used to be more common and faded out in the 80's... (5 pin bowling, not 10pin)

Prairies:  Golf, Hockey, Curling.   Ringette for younger women. Some hockey for adult women
BC: More $$ goes towards housing and there is more to do so not as common. More women play hockey here than in the prairies, I find.  I have a team or two I could ask to join if I played and I did take a "power skate for hockey" class to warm up to try it and never did finally join...

[Zamboni]

Oh yeah, curling . . . It's like bocci in that you can mostly keep one hand free to hold your beer.

I've switched to Money Moron today.

Season 1 Episode 3. Wow, that table got turned pretty quick! I've never seen anything quite like that guy.

Gail summed it up perfectly:
"You know what? Working is a lot easier than living with an asshole."

[RetiredAt63]

Oh yeah, curling . . . It's like bocci in that you can mostly keep one hand free to hold your beer.

I've switched to Money Moron today.

Season 1 Episode 3. Wow, that table got turned pretty quick! I've never seen anything quite like that guy.

Gail summed it up perfectly:
"You know what? Working is a lot easier than living with an asshole."

Gail has such good lines.  And she is right.

[Spitfire]

Thanks for the thread, after reading it, I binged pretty much the whole thing in the last month or so. I also started another one that she did called "money moron."

Kind of sad to see so many situations where people have no clue what they are doing, but at the same time it seems she is a great help to them by the end.

[Zamboni]

Yeah, she manages to help most of the people, which is great. It's startling how many people shop for entertainment.

MMM seems to have it nailed down: cars, eating out, shopping as entertainment. These are the main things that crush people financially.

[TVRodriguez]

Thanks for posting this and suggesting this show on YouTube.   I started watching it and am through the first season and into season 2.  I like how she rewards the couples who follow through and even do extra, while not rewarding the extraordinarily lazy.

[Zamboni]

^I'm glad you found it!

I'm finding Money Moron is mostly the same show as Til Debt Do Us Part except that not all of the folks are married couples. She also hones in on people she can really help in terms of getting their debt paid off pretty fast.

For example, I just watched MM S2E5: they made $90K combined, had $11K in credit card debt, owed his parents $14K, and a home equity line of credit of $30K from a kitchen renovation and pool addition. I could see how this type of debt could build up pretty fast. Unfortunately his rate of paying the HELOC was so low that it would take 356 years to pay it off! They also had no plan for retirement. Gail helped this couple a lot with just some basic common sense. Getting debt free isn't that hard as long as you catch yourself before it gets completely out of control.

[Zamboni]

Serious question: several people on the show (who are renting) seem to have a "line of credit" on which they owe $20-$30K.

How is this possible? Credit card consolidation lines of credit? Why do banks give people these?

[Metalcat]

Serious question: several people on the show (who are renting) seem to have a "line of credit" on which they owe $20-$30K.

How is this possible? Credit card consolidation lines of credit? Why do banks give people these?

???

Most people I know have a personal line of credit of some sort. The banks offer them all the time. They have an interest rate usually between 4-7%. When I got my latest LOC offer, it specifically was marketed in terms of reducing credit card payment interest, so yeah, I would assume that's what most people are using it for.

Is this not a thing outside Canada?

[scantee]

Serious question: several people on the show (who are renting) seem to have a "line of credit" on which they owe $20-$30K.

How is this possible? Credit card consolidation lines of credit? Why do banks give people these?

???

Most people I know have a personal line of credit of some sort. The banks offer them all the time. They have an interest rate usually between 4-7%. When I got my latest LOC offer, it specifically was marketed in terms of reducing credit card payment interest, so yeah, I would assume that's what most people are using it for.

Is this not a thing outside Canada?

I think it is less common in the US. Homeowners and business owners will typically have lines of credit. Certainly some people outside of those groups use LOCs, but it’s just not as ubiquitous as credit cards. I’ve never had a personal LOC, nor known anyone who used one where I was familiar enough with their financial situation that we would be discussing this sort of thing.

[OtherJen]

Serious question: several people on the show (who are renting) seem to have a "line of credit" on which they owe $20-$30K.

How is this possible? Credit card consolidation lines of credit? Why do banks give people these?

???

Most people I know have a personal line of credit of some sort. The banks offer them all the time. They have an interest rate usually between 4-7%. When I got my latest LOC offer, it specifically was marketed in terms of reducing credit card payment interest, so yeah, I would assume that's what most people are using it for.

Is this not a thing outside Canada?

I think it is less common in the US. Homeowners and business owners will typically have lines of credit. Certainly some people outside of those groups use LOCs, but it’s just not as ubiquitous as credit cards. I’ve never had a personal LOC, nor known anyone who used one where I was familiar enough with their financial situation that we would be discussing this sort of thing.

Not all homeowners here have a line of credit. Husband and I don't, and we're 15 years into our mortgage. We avoid interest-bearing non-mortgage debt like the plague.

[Zamboni]

Okay, yeah, probably I have been offered these types of "bank products" in the mail. I always just assumed they would be tied to my house.

When I see the folks making $20K or $30K who are renters and have a $20K-$30K line of credit debt on this show, well I just think that's irresponsible of the banks. Predatory lending is clearly alive and well.

[Goldielocks]

A personal line of credit or unsecured LOC are typically $5K and have an interest rate about 3% higher than a HELOC.

People will get them as emergency fund backup or bridge financing if they are temp. Short.  The larger amounts are often for debt consolidation loans.  I think the US has these by that name?  The bank sees that the client had insurious interest rates but is stable and can make monthly payments and a lower rate helps a lot.  They see an opportunity to make 7% interest with modest risk and the client saves the 14% or more interest in CC's. 

These could also be consolidation of car loans, student loans and CC's all together, too, for lower net interest.

[Zamboni]

So easy in North America to get into debt .  .  . thus the name of the show.

I've been bouncing around rather than watching the episodes in order. Latest one I watched had a husband who kept refinancing their house to take out more and more equity and thought that was being smart. Gail pointed out how amortizing your steak dinner over 30 years is a bad idea even if the interest rate is low.

[Metalcat]

A personal line of credit or unsecured LOC are typically $5K and have an interest rate about 3% higher than a HELOC.

Maybe the limits are different here in Ontario?

DH and I each have ~30K personal unsecured LOCs. We use them as an e-fund.

As for pp calling it predatory lending, can someone explain that to me?

[Dogastrophe]

My wife has a LOC for around $36K (prime + 1%) and we have a joint LOC for $35K (prime + 0.5%); both unsecured. We've had these for 15 years and 10 years, respectively. 

When we bought our condo the bank tried to convince us that we should set up a HELOC to take advantage of it's "great" rate ... but wanted an extra 1/4% on the mortgage rate. o.O

[OtherJen]

A personal line of credit or unsecured LOC are typically $5K and have an interest rate about 3% higher than a HELOC.

Maybe the limits are different here in Ontario?

DH and I each have ~30K personal unsecured LOCs. We use them as an e-fund.

As for pp calling it predatory lending, can someone explain that to me?

The above poster who mentioned predatory lending was describing the situation of someone with an annual income of $20-$30K who managed to rack up an equivalent amount of unsecured LOC debt at a fairly high interest rate. Obviously that is not your situation.

[Metalcat]

A personal line of credit or unsecured LOC are typically $5K and have an interest rate about 3% higher than a HELOC.

Maybe the limits are different here in Ontario?

DH and I each have ~30K personal unsecured LOCs. We use them as an e-fund.

As for pp calling it predatory lending, can someone explain that to me?

The above poster who mentioned predatory lending was describing the situation of someone with an annual income of $20-$30K who managed to rack up an equivalent amount of unsecured LOC debt at a fairly high interest rate. Obviously that is not your situation.

Reading too quickly on my phone. I totally missed the "making 20-30K" part.

Yeah, I would be seriously questioning a bank lending that much unsecured to people with such low incomes. Is that a common thing?

[OtherJen]

A personal line of credit or unsecured LOC are typically $5K and have an interest rate about 3% higher than a HELOC.

Maybe the limits are different here in Ontario?

DH and I each have ~30K personal unsecured LOCs. We use them as an e-fund.

As for pp calling it predatory lending, can someone explain that to me?

The above poster who mentioned predatory lending was describing the situation of someone with an annual income of $20-$30K who managed to rack up an equivalent amount of unsecured LOC debt at a fairly high interest rate. Obviously that is not your situation.

Reading too quickly on my phone. I totally missed the "making 20-30K" part.

Yeah, I would be seriously questioning a bank lending that much unsecured to people with such low incomes. Is that a common thing?

I don’t know. I hope not.

[Zamboni]

I'm starting to agree with Dave Ramsey that banks and lenders are, for many people, the enemy. While I don't agree with everything Dave says, there is definitely a pattern of people thinking "oh cool, this interest rate is only 5%!" Most don't seem to realize that racking that rapidly up to $60K, which is easy to do with home repairs, cars, vacations, etc. now means the bank is getting $3000 of your take home pay each year . . . and that's $3K every year in addition to any dent you try to make a dent in the principal.

A personal line of credit or unsecured LOC are typically $5K and have an interest rate about 3% higher than a HELOC.

Maybe the limits are different here in Ontario?

DH and I each have ~30K personal unsecured LOCs. We use them as an e-fund.

As for pp calling it predatory lending, can someone explain that to me?

Based upon what a financial advisor has told me, thinking of a LOC as an e-fund is dangerous. The terms of most LOC's allow the bank to cancel it, freeze it, or even recall it at their whim. While I've never heard of that happening, he said he'd seen people lose their jobs, think "good thing I can use my line of credit!" and then the bank computers notice that their paycheck is no longer being deposited and trigger the LOC getting frozen. LOC's and CC's are not e-funds. An e-fund is your own actual saved money that you can access within a few days.

Back on topic, I just had a fun time watching TDDUP collide with Hoarders:

Money Moron Mike and Celeste Season 2 Episode 2

Wow, they were a very cute couple, and you could tell that Gail really liked them right off the bat.

[Metalcat]

Based upon what a financial advisor has told me, thinking of a LOC as an e-fund is dangerous. The terms of most LOC's allow the bank to cancel it, freeze it, or even recall it at their whim. While I've never heard of that happening, he said he'd seen people lose their jobs, think "good thing I can use my line of credit!" and then the bank computers notice that their paycheck is no longer being deposited and trigger the LOC getting frozen. LOC's and CC's are not e-funds. An e-fund is your own actual saved money that you can access within a few days.

Yeah, I literally don't worry about this.

I don't see any reality where multiple banks shut down multiple LOCs, where a small stockpile of cash is actually going to save me. It's just not a risk scenario I bother trying to mitigate.

The real problem with using LOCs as emergency funds is that because they are so low interest compared to CCs, people don't feel motivated to pay them off and so they carry a significant balance for years, as seen in a lot of episodes.

Typically, financial risks are mostly behavioural, not actually true financial risks.

[Goldielocks]

A personal line of credit or unsecured LOC are typically $5K and have an interest rate about 3% higher than a HELOC.

Maybe the limits are different here in Ontario?

DH and I each have ~30K personal unsecured LOCs. We use them as an e-fund.

I could be provincial, although BC and AB are similar.... also, it depends on the year when you got your LOC.  I had a large-ish one, maybe $25k, that did not have any balance on it, originally set up around year 1999 for a small home reno then I paid off.  Anyway the bank reduced it to $5k during the 2008 recession, to reduce the numbers on their books.   After that, I found that most banks default to $5k max for a personal LOC unless you are asking for it for a very specific purpose like a renovation or to consolidate cc debt.

These are the exact opposite of predatory lending in my opinion -- low fees, rates are low (4-8%) and are a perfect counter-point to payday loans.'

[Rural]

Based upon what a financial advisor has told me, thinking of a LOC as an e-fund is dangerous. The terms of most LOC's allow the bank to cancel it, freeze it, or even recall it at their whim. While I've never heard of that happening, he said he'd seen people lose their jobs, think "good thing I can use my line of credit!" and then the bank computers notice that their paycheck is no longer being deposited and trigger the LOC getting frozen. LOC's and CC's are not e-funds. An e-fund is your own actual saved money that you can access within a few days.

Yeah, I literally don't worry about this.

I don't see any reality where multiple banks shut down multiple LOCs, where a small stockpile of cash is actually going to save me. It's just not a risk scenario I bother trying to mitigate.

A lot of banks shut down HELOCs during the 2008 crash: https://money.cnn.com/2008/04/18/real_estate/heloc_freeze.moneymag/index.htm?section=money_pf

[Metalcat]

Based upon what a financial advisor has told me, thinking of a LOC as an e-fund is dangerous. The terms of most LOC's allow the bank to cancel it, freeze it, or even recall it at their whim. While I've never heard of that happening, he said he'd seen people lose their jobs, think "good thing I can use my line of credit!" and then the bank computers notice that their paycheck is no longer being deposited and trigger the LOC getting frozen. LOC's and CC's are not e-funds. An e-fund is your own actual saved money that you can access within a few days.

Yeah, I literally don't worry about this.

I don't see any reality where multiple banks shut down multiple LOCs, where a small stockpile of cash is actually going to save me. It's just not a risk scenario I bother trying to mitigate.

A lot of banks shut down HELOCs during the 2008 crash: https://money.cnn.com/2008/04/18/real_estate/heloc_freeze.moneymag/index.htm?section=money_pf

As I said already, the risk of multiple large Canadian banks simultaneously shutting down multiple personal LOCs (not HELOCs), one of which is a business LOC, is just not something I spend any energy worrying about.

I worry about a lot of things, but this scenario isn't one of them. 

[partgypsy]

Based upon what a financial advisor has told me, thinking of a LOC as an e-fund is dangerous. The terms of most LOC's allow the bank to cancel it, freeze it, or even recall it at their whim. While I've never heard of that happening, he said he'd seen people lose their jobs, think "good thing I can use my line of credit!" and then the bank computers notice that their paycheck is no longer being deposited and trigger the LOC getting frozen. LOC's and CC's are not e-funds. An e-fund is your own actual saved money that you can access within a few days.

Yeah, I literally don't worry about this.

I don't see any reality where multiple banks shut down multiple LOCs, where a small stockpile of cash is actually going to save me. It's just not a risk scenario I bother trying to mitigate.

A lot of banks shut down HELOCs during the 2008 crash: https://money.cnn.com/2008/04/18/real_estate/heloc_freeze.moneymag/index.htm?section=money_pf

yes, this happened in the US, around that time our loc of 15K from our mortgage was frozen. It didn't make any sense, as it was tied to our mortgage and even at that time we had over 100K in equity. Apparently the bank was overleveraged and shut down accounts wholesale. I had it frozen again when going through divorce, and I guess I still have it? (probably still frozen). I'm not using it but it feels weird to close as it cost money and paperwork to open.

[Zamboni]

That money article on the HELOC's being shut down was interesting mostly because of the date: April, 2008. Six months before the stock market crash.

I've been overseas all month (yay, me!) but I'm back to watching these, although now I'm going in random order and will only highlight those that raise my eyebrows or especially warm my heart.

Season 4, Episode 4: A mailman (played by John Travolta) marries the Queen of Versailles (played by Gillian Anderson) and they create an heir and a spare. Neither have any money, which is a source of great consternation for the Queen, who reminds us repeatedly that 1) she needs all of her queenly things and 2) she is an excellent mother. The prospect of running into peasants on an apartment building elevator is more than the Queen can endure.

[okisok]

So happy to know about this show! I don't always agree with her financial advise, but I"m not a financial advisor. :)

I like the Wedding episode with the three couples who can't/won't get married bc of too much debt. I appreciate that she has them take on physical, financial, and emotional challenges.
It does make me so sad when people can't do basic math. When she asked the one couple who wanted to have a $50,000 wedding in 18 months how much they needed to save every month to reach their goal in time:

"500?"
"No."
"Each!"
"Nooo."
"1,000?"
"2,777! Every month!"

That's 2nd, 3rd grade math?!

[bluebelle]

So happy to know about this show! I don't always agree with her financial advise, but I"m not a financial advisor. :)

I like the Wedding episode with the three couples who can't/won't get married bc of too much debt. I appreciate that she has them take on physical, financial, and emotional challenges.
It does make me so sad when people can't do basic math. When she asked the one couple who wanted to have a $50,000 wedding in 18 months how much they needed to save every month to reach their goal in time:

"500?"
"No."
"Each!"
"Nooo."
"1,000?"
"2,777! Every month!"

That's 2nd, 3rd grade math?!

maybe they think they'll get 40% returns...........   :-)

[Zamboni]

I just don't understand the "I want to have an $XXXXX wedding" crowd. Total craziness. Instead, why not prioritize what you think you want, figure out what the reasonable price range is for each item, then prioritize and trim what is less important to you. Because, let's be frank, there is not a single guest outside of your MIL who cares about the monogrammed napkins in your "wedding colors."

For example, if you want to have flowers, you can spend $100 or $10000. The exact same florist can come up with quotes at both ends of this spectrum. So, how important are the flowers to you? Are they $10K important?

Season 5, Episode 1: Young and sweet, with a side of clueless. Gail went around putting big "NOT PAID" stickers on everything in their apartment that wasn't paid off, including a dark brown leather living room set that he picked out without including his wife (Rookie mistake!) Then she had them play that old show The Newlywed Game.

[Legsofsteel]

I remember watching this show when I had cable about 5 or so years ago. It was a good show. The amount of money people spend on 'stuff' astounded me'at the time. I watched this show before discovering MMM, but I was already fairly frugal. Never been in debt. If you can't afford it, don't buy it etc etc. Improved my ways since then though.

I remember one episode titled something like 'the guy just doesn't get it'. He was in huge debt. Play poker games with his friends all the time. By rounds at the bar all the time. Whilst the poor wife suffered at home worrying about their finances. They didn't get much of a reward because it was obvious the guy wasn't going to change his ways. I think the money she gave was in their daughters account, so the guy couldn't have access to it, and blow it straight away (which he would have done).

[TVRodriguez]

I'm still going through the episodes in order.  I think I'm in Season 5, but I'm not sure.  Still thoroughly enjoying the show.

I laughed at the one with the couple who had two dogs, no kids, and who were still overspending a ton.  I only laughed because the wife thought Gail's challenges were ridiculous...um, yes, of course they are, have you ever seen the show?  This was season 4 or 5, so she must have known about the silly stuff Gail makes them do.  And she didn't do the first challenge (of cleaning up dog poop) because she didn't want to expose her dogs to other dogs' germs?!  Wow.  She really was, um, interesting.

I was a bit dismayed at the one with the single dad who sleeps on his mom's couch, pays no rent, and who spends all his money on his new girlfriend.  I felt bad that they dragged the kids into their "new apartment" and forced the kids to have to deal with this silly couple for the show.  I mean, I get that he's their dad, but it's a lot of stress on a kid to move houses, plus to be forced to be with a new step-mom-figure, and it's more stress on the kid when the step-mom-figure is temporarily disabled-but-not-really.  And then that is only their "new house" for a few days...I think it was just for the adults but not so much for the kids.  But hopefully they really did learn some lessons.  That girlfriend was so naive, and the dad was no prize. 

[Zamboni]

Lol, yes, the lady who only fed her dog the organic, fresh-never-frozen-or-dried dog food. Most of the time it makes sense how the pair got together, but that was a weird couple. She was right up there with the guy who said he should be spending more time taking care of his dogs than his kid . . . although at least she had the good sense not to have kids since she's all in on the dogs. I felt pretty sorry for that guy because it seemed like he had it pretty together financially until he hooked up with her.

Regarding the dad who sleeps on Mom's couch, I don't think I've seen that episode yet. In some respects I feel very thankful for having grown up in a poor neighborhood with huge exposure to a bunch of lay-about people of all genders. People never even try to hide that BS from the neighborhood kids, so we had a front row seat to watch them operate in their native habitat: it is a useful life skill to be able to spot lazy leeches from a mile away.

[AMandM]

I just saw the dog couple episode.   Unbefreakinlievable. They were spending a mortgage payment on their dogs! And they weren't seriously committed to changing their lifestyle to the level dictated by their debt. Still clearly wanted to have their cake and eat it, too.

Also saw one about a couple who said their finances were good until they got married and together got into motorcycling. They had loans on 6? 7? motorcycles and credit cards for all the gear. Gail asked, "What made you think you could afford [some five-figure item]? You know you don't have [five-figure sum]!" The wife said, "The payment was only $344. I just think about the payments and whether we can swing that." Gail: "But you can't swing them."

I now can't remember whether this was the same couple that spent over $1k per month on a combination of fast food and health/diet supplements.

[Master of None]

I just saw the dog couple episode.   Unbefreakinlievable. They were spending a mortgage payment on their dogs! And they weren't seriously committed to changing their lifestyle to the level dictated by their debt. Still clearly wanted to have their cake and eat it, too.

Also saw one about a couple who said their finances were good until they got married and together got into motorcycling. They had loans on 6? 7? motorcycles and credit cards for all the gear. Gail asked, "What made you think you could afford [some five-figure item]? You know you don't have [five-figure sum]!" The wife said, "The payment was only $344. I just think about the payments and whether we can swing that." Gail: "But you can't swing them."

I now can't remember whether this was the same couple that spent over $1k per month on a combination of fast food and health/diet supplements.

That episode really brought up some painful financial memories for me. Pre-mustache I would always think about whether or not I could "swing" an additional $50 a month or whatever the payment was. I remember looking over at my wife and she looked back at me and said, "Do you remember when you used to say that all the time?" Damn it killed me, but we are now doing much better and I can't remember the last time I said that statement out loud. Love the show so far. I'm afraid I'm reaching the final episodes. Now what to do...