This quarantine shit’s getting real

[Bloop Bloop]

It's possible to like children and still acknowledge that you're not doing your part for the planet by having them.

I fully intend to have children, but I have no difficulty acknowledging that they're not good for the environment.

I'm not the one getting defensive about others making fair observations about whether I want children or not!

As they  say, if you're going to dish it you have to take it. This all started when someone with children criticised others' (not mine; I don't care for travel) preference for travel on the basis that it was wasteful.

[Wrenchturner]

Interesting conversation in this thread.  I wonder how the responses would vary if COVID-19 were understood to be an occasional event, rather than a once-in-a-lifetime event.  What happens if we get a similar virus in 12 months?  At what point does the risk aversion during a black swan out-damage the actual event?  My biggest concern is that the wet markets have already reopened in China.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

From someone outside the US looking in, it's kind of shocking that anyone's concern right now would be a holiday. I feel like a lot of the population of the US has no perspective on how knife edge serious your country's situation actually is. You're going to have waaay bigger problems in the next 2 years than not being able to holiday.

[lemanfan]

Interesting conversation in this thread.  I wonder how the responses would vary if COVID-19 were understood to be an occasional event, rather than a once-in-a-lifetime event.  What happens if we get a similar virus in 12 months?  At what point does the risk aversion during a black swan out-damage the actual event?  My biggest concern is that the wet markets have already reopened in China.

One thing that's pretty obvious that this really shows the difference in spread in densely populated areas.  Can this virus start to curb the urbanization trend that's been going on for the last century or two?  What are the second and third order effect of such a development? 

A dense city both economical and environmental advantages over a more spread out semi-dense population - and some disadvantages too of course. 

For totally unrelated reasons, I've cut down on work and only support my old company with a few details that are of the more complex kind - but I do notice how much quicker we get to results when we get the right three or four people in the same conference room as compared to working by e-mail and phone/web.  On the other hand, most of what I do is five hours of solitary thinking and writing alone to one hour of interaction with others.  The company is 90-95% working from home now, only the bossman and his secretary are there on a daily basis, and others when necessary only.

The second- and third order effect of more distributed work might affect the rural parts of the country in a positive way too.  If I don't need my staff in the city center office, it's doesn't matter if they live 3, 30 or 300 km away.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Interesting conversation in this thread.  I wonder how the responses would vary if COVID-19 were understood to be an occasional event, rather than a once-in-a-lifetime event.  What happens if we get a similar virus in 12 months?  At what point does the risk aversion during a black swan out-damage the actual event?  My biggest concern is that the wet markets have already reopened in China.

A wet market is no different from a butchers shop or a fish market, or anywhere in the US that sells live fish/lobsters/chickens etc. They're not typically filled with masses of unusual species. Of course they have already opened again - because that's how most chinese households buy food. It's normal to go to the markets for fresh produce. Supermarkets are not a thing in most of China. Furthermore, the fact that this probably started with an outbreak at a wet market in Wuhan does not mean that the virus was CAUSED by the wet market. Anyone, customer or stall holder, could have brought that virus in. No one took in an infected frickin pangolin and boom! Pangolins, IF they're the middle species, are killed for their scales which are used in chinese medicine (yes, I know that's horrific but it's not the topic right now). They're not carried around live.

[asauer]

Completely agree that shit is getting real.  Everything just feels hard now.  Grocery shopping, helping kids with online school, doing work online....

There have been good things.  I love working at home and would do it 100% if I could but with two 13 year olds home all day and a large percentage of co-workers who have no idea how to work from home.  Ugh. 

It's exhausting helping my kids.  I love them and of course we will help them but their in this weird spot where they're old enough to get up and start school, but not old enough to troubleshoot when things go wrong or old enough to really cope with being separated from friend groups when that has become so important.  So, the mental/ emotional tax for that really sucks.

Overall we're fine.  We both have jobs, can feed our family but damn.  I'm not sure how we'll do this for months.

[GuitarStv]

I wonder how the responses would vary if COVID-19 were understood to be an occasional event, rather than a once-in-a-lifetime event.  What happens if we get a similar virus in 12 months?

Well, given that we'll still be dealing with covid-19 in 12 months, I'd suspect that we would be doing largely the same thing for the new virus - social distancing and lockdowns when breakouts risk overwhelming the health care systems.

[LoanShark]

It's possible to like children and still acknowledge that you're not doing your part for the planet by having them.

I fully intend to have children, but I have no difficulty acknowledging that they're not good for the environment.

I'm not the one getting defensive about others making fair observations about whether I want children or not!

As they  say, if you're going to dish it you have to take it. This all started when someone with children criticised others' (not mine; I don't care for travel) preference for travel on the basis that it was wasteful.

I think the argument that "you're not doing your part for the planet by having kids" is a terribly flawed argument in and of itself. I don't buy it.

Again, the virtue signaling is getting old around here. You can pick apart anyone's life choices one by one if you want and there's no end. It gets old fast.

[LifeHappens]

How are others shifting gears and also engaging in new, meaningful activities?

Trudie, sorry your initial question has been completely lost in this thread. It's a good question and I wish more people would answer it!

[ReadySetMillionaire]

How are others shifting gears and also engaging in new, meaningful activities?

Trudie, sorry your initial question has been completely lost in this thread. It's a good question and I wish more people would answer it!

Agree.  I'm also interested in hearing others ideas.

[FIRE Artist]

Isn't looking for loopholes and deciding on an individual level to break your area's social isolation rules because you believe you know better than the doctors advising the lawmakers kind of like you being the passive aggressive version of those people storming state legislatures demanding reopening?

So for those who are not actively lobbying to get the rules changed/lifted, all the while quietly breaking the rules for your own benefit, why do you feel entitled to do that?  Does your personal comfort in breaking the rules depend on everyone else following the rules?  Is that why you aren't actually putting your energy into getting the rules changed instead of just going about breaking them?

[DadJokes]

How are others shifting gears and also engaging in new, meaningful activities?

There have been far more pros than cons to the current situation for me.

I've been riding the bike daily (when it's not raining, anyway). My wife has been going on walks. We've both spent a lot more time with our child. It's great watching him learn things, instead of seeing that he learned something while we were working.

I've traded my weekly board game group for playing video games. That is a trade-off I don't love, but it's entertaining at least.

@FIRE Artist do you know my (or anyone else's) area's rules? If not, then you probably don't have anything meaningful to add with your virtue signaling.

[LoanShark]

How are others shifting gears and also engaging in new, meaningful activities?

Trudie, sorry your initial question has been completely lost in this thread. It's a good question and I wish more people would answer it!

Good point - back on topic...

It is indeed "getting real". Personally, I'm with you on the travel front - my wife and I LOVE to travel and currently have a trip planned for September to hike the rim to rim of the Grand Canyon for charity...doubtful that's going to happen at this point but we'll see.

We're both able to work from home, but there's also the possibility that I might lose my job (might not...who knows?). If I do, we'll be fine. We've structured our life to live off of my wife's salary and bank mine. Plus, we have plenty in savings to last us if we both ended up getting canned (highly unlikely).

I live in GA and we're officially back open in this state. However, I don't feel comfortable getting back at it quite yet. We're only going "out" to get groceries and go for the occasional drive (this has rejuvenated my love of driving sports cars). Outside of that, I'm getting outside as much as possible and exercising.

We've also had the occasional get together with neighbors (no physical contact and distanced) which has been nice for some social interaction.

I'm interested in how this is going to shape our world from a philosophical standpoint - what social norms are going to be changed forever, etc? I just hope it doesn't crater our economy and create a depression that lasts for years.

[LoanShark]

How are others shifting gears and also engaging in new, meaningful activities?

There have been far more pros than cons to the current situation for me.

I've been riding the bike daily (when it's not raining, anyway). My wife has been going on walks. We've both spent a lot more time with our child. It's great watching him learn things, instead of seeing that he learned something while we were working.

I've traded my weekly board game group for playing video games. That is a trade-off I don't love, but it's entertaining at least.

@FIRE Artist do you know my (or anyone else's) area's rules? If not, then you probably don't have anything meaningful to add with your virtue signaling.

Same here on the video games! I haven't played in YEARS...not really actively since I was a kid actually. Bought a PS4 and have been enjoying FF7 remake and COD. Fun stuff.

[ReadySetMillionaire]

Isn't looking for loopholes and deciding on an individual level to break your area's social isolation rules because you believe you know better than the doctors advising the lawmakers kind of like you being the passive aggressive version of those people storming state legislatures demanding reopening?

So for those who are not actively lobbying to get the rules changed/lifted, all the while quietly breaking the rules for your own benefit, why do you feel entitled to do that?  Does your personal comfort in breaking the rules depend on everyone else following the rules?  Is that why you aren't actually putting your energy into getting the rules changed instead of just going about breaking them?

My state's order (Ohio) is 14 pages long, single spaced, with a ton of exceptions to stay home. I'm not sure why they think anybody would read it.

My understanding of the order is to stay home as much as possible, but if you want to gather as a family, be outside and keep the gathering below ten people.  I've certainly bent the "family" part but I don't see any scientific distinction between letting grandma and grandpa over versus good friends.  In fact, I think the data suggests that it is far more responsible to have my similarly aged younger friends (20s/30s) over than my son's grandparents (60s).

I live on a half-acre lot with plenty of space.  The most we've had over is four people and we have had a ton of distance between us (almost comical sometimes, bordering on 15-20 feet).

If this makes me a deviant then whatever.

[JLee]

You're right. The figure you put wasn't 1%, it was 0.5% (1 skittle out of 200). It's still off by a factor of 3. So your numbers are still fudged.

I am going to do whatever I like. My state reported only 14 new cases today, out of 10,000 tests done, and 13 of those were connected to a known outbreak which is being quarantined. In other words, only 1 new case aside from a controlled outbreak. 1 out of 5 million. I think I'll take the odds on that and enjoy a nice road trip today, since I've earned it.

That's because it was an analogy, not a mathematically precise illustration.

Isn't looking for loopholes and deciding on an individual level to break your area's social isolation rules because you believe you know better than the doctors advising the lawmakers kind of like you being the passive aggressive version of those people storming state legislatures demanding reopening?

So for those who are not actively lobbying to get the rules changed/lifted, all the while quietly breaking the rules for your own benefit, why do you feel entitled to do that?  Does your personal comfort in breaking the rules depend on everyone else following the rules?  Is that why you aren't actually putting your energy into getting the rules changed instead of just going about breaking them?

My state's order (Ohio) is 14 pages long, single spaced, with a ton of exceptions to stay home. I'm not sure why they think anybody would read it.

My understanding of the order is to stay home as much as possible, but if you want to gather as a family, be outside and keep the gathering below ten people.  I've certainly bent the "family" part but I don't see any scientific distinction between letting grandma and grandpa over versus good friends.  In fact, I think the data suggests that it is far more responsible to have my similarly aged younger friends (20s/30s) over than my son's grandparents (60s).

I live on a half-acre lot with plenty of space.  The most we've had over is four people and we have had a ton of distance between us (almost comical sometimes, bordering on 15-20 feet).

If this makes me a deviant then whatever.

The general sense I'm getting here is that people who live in rural areas think they're not vulnerable and people in cities don't.  Maybe you're right, maybe you're not...but all it takes is one employer, one church service, one supermarket, etc. to have an outbreak and it will explode from there.


Anyway, to get back on point, I had a pallet of stuff delivered from Home Depot a month or two ago and I'm slowly working on renovating my basement.  We're also cooking a lot more at home than we used to, which is good!

[Watchmaker]

I'm 100% WFH home now, and I'm honestly not sure I can face going back into the office. My productivity is about the same (maybe a bit lower at home), but the difference is when I need a break from work I can do something useful or fun (cook dinner, go for a walk, practice a hobby) rather than "looking busy" at my desk. Luckily, after talking with my boss, she seems fine with me staying WFH for the indefinite future.

We're doing a fair amount of Zoom socializing (trivia nights, cocktail parties, etc). I might be joining an online DnD game soon. I've been playing more online video games as a way of socializing with co-workers. We're walking a lot more.

SO is struggling more with the physical distancing as she is the most social person I've ever met.

[FindingFI]

How are others shifting gears and also engaging in new, meaningful activities?

Quaratine has been a struggle and a half.  I am full-time working from home and trying to care for an infant while my husband works an essential job in an office 4 days a week with 1 WFH day, which was low exposure until a coworker tested positive last week. He's taking one day a week off right now under the CARES act to help me out until that time runs out.  Instead of my old 9 hour work day, I'm now trying to get in 9 hours a day in between child care.  Some days it takes 12-16 hours to work 9 hours and some days I can't get 9 hours in.  Because I'm working in fragmented blasts instead of dedicated, focused time, I'm far less efficient and can't get all my work done during the work weeks, so it's spilling into weekends.  There's no time for me to even do my old, meaningful activities.  I'm caring for my child, working, and sleeping in that order and nothing else.

[OtherJen]

How are others shifting gears and also engaging in new, meaningful activities?

Trudie, sorry your initial question has been completely lost in this thread. It's a good question and I wish more people would answer it!

Agree.  I'm also interested in hearing others ideas.

I participated in my first virtual choir a few weeks ago! I suspect there will be more now that the American Choral Directors Association and other choral orgs held a webinar and agreed that it would be difficult and ill-advised to sing together indoors for at least a year.

I've become fairly proficient with Zoom and have had lots of meetings with family, friends, and even other freelancers and managers at one of the companies that supplies me with contract work.

I'm not nearly as introverted as I thought I was. I've worked by myself at home for years, but I am very used to getting out multiple times per week and socializing through volunteer work or with family and friends. I do miss the interactions and am grateful for modern technology.

[LifeHappens]

I'm not nearly as introverted as I thought I was. I've worked by myself at home for years, but I am very used to getting out multiple times per week and socializing through volunteer work or with family and friends.

I'm in a similar situation. Been WFH for 10+years, but we (used to) get out 2-3 evenings a week for running club, book club, etc. I've realized I'm not nearly as introverted as I might seem!

[mm1970]

From someone outside the US looking in, it's kind of shocking that anyone's concern right now would be a holiday. I feel like a lot of the population of the US has no perspective on how knife edge serious your country's situation actually is. You're going to have waaay bigger problems in the next 2 years than not being able to holiday.

My concern is more about getting that $3000 I paid for plane tickets back.  I mean, credit is fine and all, but if the credit expires before it's safe to use it on a plane trip, then that money is gone, right into United's pocket.

[expatartist]

From someone outside the US looking in, it's kind of shocking that anyone's concern right now would be a holiday. I feel like a lot of the population of the US has no perspective on how knife edge serious your country's situation actually is. You're going to have waaay bigger problems in the next 2 years than not being able to holiday.

+1 Americans like many of you writing here, middle class and upwards, will be ok. But the bedrock of America will not be. The downward spiral of the last couple of decades (currency bleeding from the country for military activities overseas, then since the financial crisis away and upwards from the working class and to an extent middle-class) will be accelerated by this.

In Hong Kong one of the world's densest cities, our border with China generally porous, we've had no full lockdowns and probably won't. People began social distancing and wearing masks and upping our hygiene immediately on confirmation of the pneumonia in mid-January. Our dept of health was prepared with a pandemic team and was consulted with every decision our usually inept government made. Schools and leisure centers and entertainment venues were closed immediately. Many small businesses are suffering and people have lost work in the hospitality, F&B and education industries, many sacrificing short-term for long-term survival, but we're all in this together, and mask-wearing is a visual sign of this.

Since we've had no community transmission in weeks (total of 4 deaths & 1041 cases in our city of 7.4 million), schools will start opening later this month and things are slowly opening up. We have been preparing since SARS in 2003 for a pandemic, experts have been saying for decades we were headed for one. Our cases now come from Europe and the USA, because you have not handled things well like the countries who dealt with SARS.

To respond to the OP, I've been relishing this extra time to focus on a research proposal, to start a handful of virtual collaborations (planning a two-country exhibition later this year; recent 24-hour studio swap; giving virtual talks with and to organizations). This disconnection from what we knew as everyday life has made connection more imperative. So we are finding ways to do this virtually and physically around the world. It's a really exciting time for those of us who have steady salaries in the creative industries, even though all our original exhibitions this year were cancelled or postponed. We are having to find new ways to connect and create. Difficult but a good challenge.

[mm1970]

Shifting gears:
- both working from home.  I mostly like it, husband does too but really needs his office to be more effective.  So, when the requirement to stay at home is lifted, I can see where he will be at work most days, and I may go into work 1-2 days per week.  I'm sure my boss would prefer more, but I have 2 kids at home and the younger is 7.

- More time with each other - cooking and eating meals - and playing with the kids.  When there was no school, we were doing board games. Now, we are mostly helping them with school, jumping rope outside, having occasional water gun fights.

- Long term plans are needed though. Summer camp is probably not happening, so we will need another "schedule", to keep the kids active, engaged, reading, and doing some fun activities.  I'm thinking I should have bought that trampoline that I found on facebook marketplace.  But we really don't have space.

- Exercising at home. I'm getting the same amount of exercise as before, but husband is getting more with dog walking and jumping rope with the kids.

- The lack of grocery shopping and figuring out how to procure things when we only shop every 2 weeks is really wearing me down. I use SO MUCH brain power figuring out how to feed everyone. 

- Helping homeschool my kids while working FT is a real drag.  Summer isn't going to be any better.  It would be nice to be able to do more.  But, everything is a chore.  Teaching the teen to cook. Forcing him to feed himself (literally everything is a battle).  Teaching kids to ride a bike, forcing them out for activities.  It's just easier to do it myself.  There's literally too much to do in the time available.

I'm the closest thing to an extrovert in my house, and it's hard. All my exercise was planned around people.  I'm fine running and lifting by myself for now, but I miss my friends.

[mm1970]

+1 Americans like many of you writing here, middle class and upwards, will be ok. But the bedrock of America will not be. The downward spiral of the last couple of decades (currency bleeding from the country for military activities overseas, then since the financial crisis away and upwards from the working class and to an extent middle-class) will be accelerated by this.

It's been a downward spiral for years.  If trump is reelected it's going to get worse before it gets better.

[wenchsenior]

From someone outside the US looking in, it's kind of shocking that anyone's concern right now would be a holiday. I feel like a lot of the population of the US has no perspective on how knife edge serious your country's situation actually is. You're going to have waaay bigger problems in the next 2 years than not being able to holiday.

My concern is more about getting that $3000 I paid for plane tickets back.  I mean, credit is fine and all, but if the credit expires before it's safe to use it on a plane trip, then that money is gone, right into United's pocket.

Same.  I have a 2000$ credit that I was planning to use this summer; it expires in September. ETA: dammit I can't type today!

[StarBright]

Instead of my old 9 hour work day, I'm now trying to get in 9 hours a day in between child care.  Some days it takes 12-16 hours to work 9 hours and some days I can't get 9 hours in.  Because I'm working in fragmented blasts instead of dedicated, focused time, I'm far less efficient and can't get all my work done during the work weeks, so it's spilling into weekends.  There's no time for me to even do my old, meaningful activities. 

+1

[partgypsy]

Here's a general question. For those with kids now that you see what it is like to have kids at home versus at school, does it make you value what schools and teachers do more? Would it make you more supportive for more state and federal resources for schools and teachers including things like headstart? In my state, education keeps getting defunded. We used to be 48th in spending, not sure where we are now.

[FIRE Artist]

How are others shifting gears and also engaging in new, meaningful activities?

There have been far more pros than cons to the current situation for me.

I've been riding the bike daily (when it's not raining, anyway). My wife has been going on walks. We've both spent a lot more time with our child. It's great watching him learn things, instead of seeing that he learned something while we were working.

I've traded my weekly board game group for playing video games. That is a trade-off I don't love, but it's entertaining at least.

@FIRE Artist do you know my (or anyone else's) area's rules? If not, then you probably don't have anything meaningful to add with your virtue signaling.

Hahah, I love it.  Claiming someone else is virtue signaling for presenting a challenging question or dissenting point of view has become the new virtue signaling.

And yes, this quarantine shit’s getting real.

[Michael in ABQ]

Here's a general question. For those with kids now that you see what it is like to have kids at home versus at school, does it make you value what schools and teachers do more? Would it make you more supportive for more state and federal resources for schools and teachers including things like headstart? In my state, education keeps getting defunded. We used to be 48th in spending, not sure where we are now.

We homeschooled for several years but now we pay about $4,000 per child for private school. Meanwhile the public school district spends about $10,000 per pupil with inferior results (closer to $13k if you include capital spending on school buildings and the debt service for previous construction). So no, I am not particularly supportive of more funding for education. We appreciate what the teachers do, and it's certainly easier for my wife not having to plan all the curriculum and do all the instruction for four kids.   

[Samuel]

How are others shifting gears and also engaging in new, meaningful activities?

Trudie, sorry your initial question has been completely lost in this thread. It's a good question and I wish more people would answer it!

Meaningful is a real challenge for me at the moment.

I've hit something of a bad patch lately. At first I was quite satisfied indulging my introvert tendencies to the max but the longer this goes on the more systemic problems with my life are being exposed. Without the diversions of the office and misc site visits I have to admit I'm actually pretty checked out of my job and am no longer sure I can ride this career the remaining way to FIRE. I'm under a layoff threat now so that choice might be made for me but I have no idea in which direction I should pivot my career and it's anxiety producing to think about. Similar realizations have surfaced for my social and love lives where I've really been forced to face how unsatisfying I've let things get.

To completely misappropriate a Buffett analogy: the water has gone out and it appears I've been swimming naked without realizing it.

In the long run this burgeoning existential crisis will be a good thing but for now it sucks since there are so few opportunities to actually act on this new found motivation to reinvigorate my life. New and meaningful activities are pretty much off the table for the immediate future which only adds to the frustration and gloominess (yeah, I know Zoom is a thing but I am not great at the medium, especially with total strangers). There's a limbo/purgatory feeling to things right now I am decidedly not enjoying.

It's not all bad, though. I'm grateful to have a job where I can WFH and keep getting a full paycheck. Family and friends are all currently healthy. Thanks to the MMM/FIRE philosophy I'm sitting on a modest pile of money and expenses are low enough I can comfortably exist on unemployment benefits alone should that be necessary. I've been reading and playing guitar more than I have in years and my fitness is steadily improving. I'm well positioned to rebound, once that becomes an option.

I know I'm not the only one who has been forced to face some uncomfortable truths during this lock down. I expect a lot of people to also make significant changes to their lives in the near future.

[ReadySetMillionaire]

You're right. The figure you put wasn't 1%, it was 0.5% (1 skittle out of 200). It's still off by a factor of 3. So your numbers are still fudged.

I am going to do whatever I like. My state reported only 14 new cases today, out of 10,000 tests done, and 13 of those were connected to a known outbreak which is being quarantined. In other words, only 1 new case aside from a controlled outbreak. 1 out of 5 million. I think I'll take the odds on that and enjoy a nice road trip today, since I've earned it.

That's because it was an analogy, not a mathematically precise illustration.

Isn't looking for loopholes and deciding on an individual level to break your area's social isolation rules because you believe you know better than the doctors advising the lawmakers kind of like you being the passive aggressive version of those people storming state legislatures demanding reopening?

So for those who are not actively lobbying to get the rules changed/lifted, all the while quietly breaking the rules for your own benefit, why do you feel entitled to do that?  Does your personal comfort in breaking the rules depend on everyone else following the rules?  Is that why you aren't actually putting your energy into getting the rules changed instead of just going about breaking them?

My state's order (Ohio) is 14 pages long, single spaced, with a ton of exceptions to stay home. I'm not sure why they think anybody would read it.

My understanding of the order is to stay home as much as possible, but if you want to gather as a family, be outside and keep the gathering below ten people.  I've certainly bent the "family" part but I don't see any scientific distinction between letting grandma and grandpa over versus good friends.  In fact, I think the data suggests that it is far more responsible to have my similarly aged younger friends (20s/30s) over than my son's grandparents (60s).

I live on a half-acre lot with plenty of space.  The most we've had over is four people and we have had a ton of distance between us (almost comical sometimes, bordering on 15-20 feet).

If this makes me a deviant then whatever.

The general sense I'm getting here is that people who live in rural areas think they're not vulnerable and people in cities don't.  Maybe you're right, maybe you're not...but all it takes is one employer, one church service, one supermarket, etc. to have an outbreak and it will explode from there.


Anyway, to get back on point, I had a pallet of stuff delivered from Home Depot a month or two ago and I'm slowly working on renovating my basement.  We're also cooking a lot more at home than we used to, which is good!

My not thinking I’m vulnerable has nothing to do with my “rural” area and everything to do with the CDC data.

Even with that said, I am curbing my behavior to prohibit possible asymptomatic infection, but I’ve come to terms with the reality that we cannot shut down for a long period of time and we’re going to have to find out another way to deal with this.

[charis]

Instead of my old 9 hour work day, I'm now trying to get in 9 hours a day in between child care.  Some days it takes 12-16 hours to work 9 hours and some days I can't get 9 hours in.  Because I'm working in fragmented blasts instead of dedicated, focused time, I'm far less efficient and can't get all my work done during the work weeks, so it's spilling into weekends.  There's no time for me to even do my old, meaningful activities. 

+1

+2

I can't begin to relate to people who have time for activities or hobbies or what have you.  2 FT WFH parents plus two home schooling kids. Never been busier or more stressed.

[K_in_the_kitchen]

How are others shifting gears and also engaging in new, meaningful activities?

Trudie, sorry your initial question has been completely lost in this thread. It's a good question and I wish more people would answer it!

I did miss this, and I'm sorry!

We've lived in our neighborhood for 20+ years, and we've walked several times a week for all those years, and yet we always headed off our block to walk. Now we make a point to go around our block at least daily, to walk on both sides of the street, and most of all, to smile, make eye contact, and say hello to our neighbors. Recently I noticed one neighbor has a gorgeous yard I've never gotten close enough to truly appreciate!

We're spending more time sitting on our front porch so we can say hello to neighbors walking by.

I switched our main meal from lunch time to dinner time, in order to create a family meal every evening, something we used to do before the boys graduate from high school. Once the boys started college we rarely had both of them home for the same meal. They're busy with online classes at lunch time, but are available for an early dinner (5:30). It's a chance to reconnect even though we've been in the same house all day.

We're reclaiming Sundays as a day of rest. Being home all of the time, the days can merge into each other and it's easy to work on projects all weekend (cleaning out garage, weeding, etc.). Without the framework of our religious services, Sundays started to feel like Saturday (I'm not loving watching live streams -- the technology feels like a barrier and I miss our singing and praying in unison). I felt we all needed a day without work, a day we could connect with God and each other, and to rest.

I'm talking to my dad each week, and rather than feeling rushed, I'm enjoying it even if the conversation rambles. For once, I'm not rushing around talking to him while I need to be doing other things, or needing to go after a few minutes because we need to leave to get somewhere. Likewise, he has more time to talk to me on Sunday evenings (he used to have standing plans each Sunday late afternoon into evening). It won't last forever, but it's nice now.

[K_in_the_kitchen]

Instead of my old 9 hour work day, I'm now trying to get in 9 hours a day in between child care.  Some days it takes 12-16 hours to work 9 hours and some days I can't get 9 hours in.  Because I'm working in fragmented blasts instead of dedicated, focused time, I'm far less efficient and can't get all my work done during the work weeks, so it's spilling into weekends.  There's no time for me to even do my old, meaningful activities. 

+1

+2

I can't begin to relate to people who have time for activities or hobbies or what have you.  2 FT WFH parents plus two home schooling kids. Never been busier or more stressed.

As someone who homeschooled my children K-12, I find it absurd that school districts would expect parents who are working from home to also homeschool their children. Homeschooling typically isn't "school at home", and really what they're doing is giving most students more homework with less teaching and support, and saddling parents with yet more to do.

Honestly, if it were happening to me, I would withdraw my children from the school, establish a private school in my home (one way to legally homeschool in my state), and do whatever the heck I wanted. No fear. I'd let my kids read, watch educational TV, play games and do puzzles, bake and cook with me, and play play play. It would basically be responsible unschooling. I'd buy whichever level Teaching Textbooks program they were in for math, and just not worry. I'd "strew the environment" with learning games and activities, art supplies, musical instruments (but not during working hours), and plenty of books.

I find it ridiculous to talk about "learning loss", as if trying to do distance learning from home with working parents is going to make up for what the kids aren't learning in school. It would have been far better to take this pressure off of families, acknowledge that children learn all the time, and worry about "learning loss" when schools resume. But that's not how funding works.

[GuitarStv]

Instead of my old 9 hour work day, I'm now trying to get in 9 hours a day in between child care.  Some days it takes 12-16 hours to work 9 hours and some days I can't get 9 hours in.  Because I'm working in fragmented blasts instead of dedicated, focused time, I'm far less efficient and can't get all my work done during the work weeks, so it's spilling into weekends.  There's no time for me to even do my old, meaningful activities. 

+1

+2

I can't begin to relate to people who have time for activities or hobbies or what have you.  2 FT WFH parents plus two home schooling kids. Never been busier or more stressed.

+3

[StarBright]

Here's a general question. For those with kids now that you see what it is like to have kids at home versus at school, does it make you value what schools and teachers do more? Would it make you more supportive for more state and federal resources for schools and teachers including things like headstart? In my state, education keeps getting defunded. We used to be 48th in spending, not sure where we are now.

It doesn't make me value it more because I'm already a pro-teacher's union marching, paying out the wazoo for school taxes supporter of education.

[Bloop Bloop]

Isn't looking for loopholes and deciding on an individual level to break your area's social isolation rules because you believe you know better than the doctors advising the lawmakers kind of like you being the passive aggressive version of those people storming state legislatures demanding reopening?

So for those who are not actively lobbying to get the rules changed/lifted, all the while quietly breaking the rules for your own benefit, why do you feel entitled to do that?  Does your personal comfort in breaking the rules depend on everyone else following the rules?  Is that why you aren't actually putting your energy into getting the rules changed instead of just going about breaking them?

The starting point is whether the rules are at all rational. If they are not rational then we can simply feel free to disregard them, particularly when they are difficult to enforce and therefore there is little risk for rule-breakers. I have been saying for about 2 weeks that my state's lockdown laws are irrational and I have been breaking them at will (a mate of mine in the police force confirmed they are only enforcing egregious breaches anyway). Of course, it might be different in the U.S. - Australia = 97 deaths, none under 42yo. US = lots of deaths, and lots of issues with containment, etc.

[SisterX]

@AnnaGrowsAMustache - From someone inside the US it's appalling to me too. The people on this board who think it's "not a big deal" are, from my perspective, entitled shits. My mother is in hospice, in a care facility. I'm so, so lucky because hers is one of the very few in my area that hasn't had cases of COVID. But one of the reasons for that is that they went on lockdown VERY early, in February. They cycled in and out a couple of times before finally deciding that was it, and barring the doors to all but the staff. Even the hospice workers who tend to my mom and others aren't allowed in, they do everything virtually. So with very little time left to spend with my mom, it's now been two months since I got to give her a hug. And really, I'd like to see the "it's just a flu" crowd, or the "it won't hurt me" crowd, or the "what about the economy" crowd, explain to people with dementia and other memory problems that there's a pandemic going on, sorry that we can't come see you. I'd like to see them visit their loved ones through glass, and have to remind the staff every time that they need to move the phone closer to the window because it confuses her too much to have my voice coming out of the speaker over there. And then needing to repeatedly tap on the glass to get your loved one's attention again, because they can't even remember for a whole minute that you're there so you repeatedly surprise them.

You're missing out on trips? Wah! You miss your friends? Wah! You know what I'm missing out on? Potentially the last months with my mother. If she doesn't get it but it's still circulating in the community then it's too dangerous to let people visit. If it does start spreading in the community then they'll have to be in quarantine anyway, because the risk of spreading it to the community is too high. So either way, as long as this virus is still in circulation at all I don't get to see my mom. People who are breaking the fucking isolation and lockdowns because wah, it's so hard! are making the situation worse for people like me. My siblings were supposed to visit our mom, and none of them are able to now. Will they get to see her again before she dies? Who knows! My mom's younger sister was supposed to visit this spring and, again, they may never get to see each other again before my mom dies. You're missing a "dream" trip somewhere? My heart bleeds for you. Really. But suck it up, put on your big kid pants, and remember that this is not about you. And there are things which are far more important than money.

[OtherJen]

Isn't looking for loopholes and deciding on an individual level to break your area's social isolation rules because you believe you know better than the doctors advising the lawmakers kind of like you being the passive aggressive version of those people storming state legislatures demanding reopening?

So for those who are not actively lobbying to get the rules changed/lifted, all the while quietly breaking the rules for your own benefit, why do you feel entitled to do that?  Does your personal comfort in breaking the rules depend on everyone else following the rules?  Is that why you aren't actually putting your energy into getting the rules changed instead of just going about breaking them?

The starting point is whether the rules are at all rational. If they are not rational then we can simply feel free to disregard them, particularly when they are difficult to enforce and therefore there is little risk for rule-breakers. I have been saying for about 2 weeks that my state's lockdown laws are irrational and I have been breaking them at will (a mate of mine in the police force confirmed they are only enforcing egregious breaches anyway). Of course, it might be different in the U.S. - Australia = 97 deaths, none under 42yo. US = lots of deaths, and lots of issues with containment, etc.

I actually wish our US state would enforce things more heavily. In my husband's semi-rural hometown, there's a barber who decided that he was above the law and opened up his shop. He's 77 and therefore automatically high risk, he lives and works in the largest town in a county where the infection rates are still increasing, and he's been working 15-hour days because people are driving from several counties over for a haircut. I can only hope he hasn't created a new infection cluster (and that my in-laws aren't going in for haircuts, as he's been their barber for most of their lives).

[OtherJen]

@AnnaGrowsAMustache - From someone inside the US it's appalling to me to. The people on this board who think it's "not a big deal" are, from my perspective, entitled shits. My mother is in hospice, in a care facility. I'm so, so lucky because hers is one of the very few in my area that hasn't had cases of COVID. But one of the reasons for that is that they went on lockdown VERY early, in February. They cycled in and out a couple of times before finally deciding that was it, and barring the doors to all but the staff. Even the hospice workers who tend to my mom and others aren't allowed in, they do everything virtually. So with very little time left to spend with my mom, it's now been two months since I got to give her a hug. And really, I'd like to see the "it's just a flu" crowd, or the "it won't hurt me" crowd, or the "what about the economy" crowd, explain to people with dementia and other memory problems that there's a pandemic going on, sorry that we can't come see you. I'd like to see them visit their loved ones through glass, and have to remind the staff every time that they need to move the phone closer to the window because it confuses her too much to have my voice coming out of the speaker over there. And then needing to repeatedly tap on the glass to get your loved one's attention again, because they can't even remember for a whole minute that you're there so you repeatedly surprise them.

You're missing out on trips? Wah! You miss your friends? Wah! You know what I'm missing out on? Potentially the last months with my mother. If she doesn't get it but it's still circulating in the community then it's too dangerous to let people visit. If it does start spreading in the community then they'll have to be in quarantine anyway, because the risk of spreading it to the community is too high. So either way, as long as this virus is still in circulation at all I don't get to see my mom. People who are breaking the fucking isolation and lockdowns because wah, it's so hard! are making the situation worse for people like me. My siblings were supposed to visit our mom, and none of them are able to now. Will they get to see her again before she dies? Who knows! My mom's younger sister was supposed to visit this spring and, again, they may never get to see each other again before my mom dies. You're missing a "dream" trip somewhere? My heart bleeds for you. Really. But suck it up, put on your big kid pants, and remember that this is not about you. And there are things which are far more important than money.

I am so sorry. This fucking sucks, so much. I am heartbroken for you, and for my cousins going through the same thing right now. It is so profoundly unfair. 

[economista]

@SisterX - I am so sorry you aren't able to visit with your mother right now - you have my deepest sympathies. I completely agree with your sentiment.

I am in an urban area that has had hundreds of deaths and thousands of cases and I'm appalled at what is going on with my group of friends. We run a non-profit club for *sport* that normally runs multiple practices a day, 7 days a week. Completely ignoring the financial aspects of keeping the club closed through all of this, they are upset and want to open back up for practices simply because they miss practicing! They want to be "officially" closed but then have practices with hand picked groups of teammates. We have an email thread discussing when we can open up, how to limit transmission, etc for all of the coaches and some of their ideas are insane! They simply want to practice and are trying to look at every loophole they can possible invent to argue that we can open up again - and one of them is a police officer! At least he is being a voice of reason (along with the club owners) who keeps pointing out that we can lose our business license for violating the orders. I just can't justify practicing and violating the orders to satiate my own selfish want to practice and see my friends, thereby putting others at risk. I was an advocate for closing down before the state told us we had to and there were a lot of very heated, angry discussions around that. Then one of our teammates tested positive for the virus and she immediately changed her opinion.

For our part, my husband and I are doing lots of home workouts, taking walks, and spending more time together as a family. I am full time WFH now and he is a full time stay at home dad, so he is really happy having me around to help with feedings and to talk during the day. We think this quarantine time has benefited our family a lot on a personal level, while acknowledging that we are very lucky and that it is created havoc and distress for many others.

[js82]

Interesting conversation in this thread.  I wonder how the responses would vary if COVID-19 were understood to be an occasional event, rather than a once-in-a-lifetime event.  What happens if we get a similar virus in 12 months?  At what point does the risk aversion during a black swan out-damage the actual event? 

The question needs to be a bit broader than "what if we get a similar virus?", because I don't think we should assume the next pandemic will be similar to the current one.  If our leaders are sensible(don't hold your breath) they'll work out a series of hypotheticals for viruses with varying degrees of contagiousness and lethality, as well as starting states(mostly-contained versus absolutely not contained).

There *will* be another new virus, and it most likely won't be the same as Covid-19, minus the fact that the primary mode of transmission will be respiratory.

[wenchsenior]

@AnnaGrowsAMustache - From someone inside the US it's appalling to me to. The people on this board who think it's "not a big deal" are, from my perspective, entitled shits. My mother is in hospice, in a care facility. I'm so, so lucky because hers is one of the very few in my area that hasn't had cases of COVID. But one of the reasons for that is that they went on lockdown VERY early, in February. They cycled in and out a couple of times before finally deciding that was it, and barring the doors to all but the staff. Even the hospice workers who tend to my mom and others aren't allowed in, they do everything virtually. So with very little time left to spend with my mom, it's now been two months since I got to give her a hug. And really, I'd like to see the "it's just a flu" crowd, or the "it won't hurt me" crowd, or the "what about the economy" crowd, explain to people with dementia and other memory problems that there's a pandemic going on, sorry that we can't come see you. I'd like to see them visit their loved ones through glass, and have to remind the staff every time that they need to move the phone closer to the window because it confuses her too much to have my voice coming out of the speaker over there. And then needing to repeatedly tap on the glass to get your loved one's attention again, because they can't even remember for a whole minute that you're there so you repeatedly surprise them.

You're missing out on trips? Wah! You miss your friends? Wah! You know what I'm missing out on? Potentially the last months with my mother. If she doesn't get it but it's still circulating in the community then it's too dangerous to let people visit. If it does start spreading in the community then they'll have to be in quarantine anyway, because the risk of spreading it to the community is too high. So either way, as long as this virus is still in circulation at all I don't get to see my mom. People who are breaking the fucking isolation and lockdowns because wah, it's so hard! are making the situation worse for people like me. My siblings were supposed to visit our mom, and none of them are able to now. Will they get to see her again before she dies? Who knows! My mom's younger sister was supposed to visit this spring and, again, they may never get to see each other again before my mom dies. You're missing a "dream" trip somewhere? My heart bleeds for you. Really. But suck it up, put on your big kid pants, and remember that this is not about you. And there are things which are far more important than money.

I am so sorry. This fucking sucks, so much. I am heartbroken for you, and for my cousins going through the same thing right now. It is so profoundly unfair.

Absolutely agree.  I hope my statements didn't come across as 'this isn't a big deal' just b/c I personally haven't been negatively affected.  They were not meant to.  I am thankful every day that I've been so lucky, and I have no assurance that will continue.  I also want to go on the record saying that I think most people are not taking this pandemic seriously enough in terms of the extreme psychological toll it is taking on a lot of people, and the certain toll it's going to take in the future.  ETA, news broke today that our governor issued an executive order freeing a local business owner after the cops arrested her for defying the lockdown to keep her business open. Bitch should be stuck in jail for a month as far as I'm concerned, but our governor is a tool. 

[ReadySetMillionaire]

This helpful article has been published in The Atlantic today:

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/05/restaurants-stores-reopen-dos-and-donts/611314/

CAN I VISIT MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY? AND CAN I GIVE THEM A HUG?

To the first question: Yes, but cautiously, while maintaining social distance. All three experts thought that it would be much safer to socialize outdoors—on patios, lawns, driveways, and so on. If you do choose to risk an indoor visit, Marr said it’s a good idea to open the windows and keep the space well ventilated.

Outdoor areas are generally safer than indoor ones because they have better ventilation, more direct sunlight, and more room for people to space themselves out—none of which completely shuts down the transmission of the virus, but all of which seem to reduce it.

Even during outdoor gatherings, it’s best not to get too close to anyone you don’t live with. “Across household boundaries, there should be six feet of distance,” Noymer said.

Sadly, this means no hugs. “There are so many friends I would love to hug right now, but it’s a no,” Carlton said.

If that makes me a "what about the economy" Trumper then whatever.

[The 585]

We're in Italy, so things have been "real" for us for a long time.  Our lock down happened on March 9 and was a lot more extreme that the lock downs in many other places.  We also live in an apartment with 2 kids with no balcony or other outside space. The only outside space we have in our roof.  We were only allowed to leave the apartment for almost 2 months to go food shopping, go to the pharmacy or go to work if we were essential workers (we're not).  Our kids were not allowed to leave the apartment.  We were only allowed to jog or walk dogs within 200 meters of our apartment -approximately 1 city block.  All parks were closed.

Anyway on Monday, they eased up the restrictions here a bit.  Parks (but not playgrounds) have reopened and we are allowed to exercise in them while social distancing and wearing masks.  We're now allowed to meet friends but we are allowed to meet family members while social distancing.  I took the kids to the park yesterday and it was amazing.  There were a lot of police around checking everyone and everyone was behaving.

The shit's also real for us as my husband owns a tourism business.  He is now a stay at home dad and, thank goodness, I'm able to work from home. Kind of put things into perspective.

I'm in Italy too... terrible timing because I moved here for work, but with traveling around Europe as my primary objective. Now, unfortunately all I can do is work.

You say we're allowed to meet friends, do you know more specifics on that? Do you mean "congiunti"? It's rough being an American here in Italy during this situation-- their rules are tough to understand and are always changing. Even the Italians can't figure them out.

[OtherJen]

This helpful article has been published in The Atlantic today:

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/05/restaurants-stores-reopen-dos-and-donts/611314/

CAN I VISIT MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY? AND CAN I GIVE THEM A HUG?

To the first question: Yes, but cautiously, while maintaining social distance. All three experts thought that it would be much safer to socialize outdoors—on patios, lawns, driveways, and so on. If you do choose to risk an indoor visit, Marr said it’s a good idea to open the windows and keep the space well ventilated.

Outdoor areas are generally safer than indoor ones because they have better ventilation, more direct sunlight, and more room for people to space themselves out—none of which completely shuts down the transmission of the virus, but all of which seem to reduce it.

Even during outdoor gatherings, it’s best not to get too close to anyone you don’t live with. “Across household boundaries, there should be six feet of distance,” Noymer said.

Sadly, this means no hugs. “There are so many friends I would love to hug right now, but it’s a no,” Carlton said.

If that makes me a "what about the economy" Trumper then whatever.

I don't think it does. There's nothing in that quote that isn't common sense.

[scottish]

This situation isn't really all that new - it's just new to us.    This is what life was like before we had vaccines.   Diseases like polio, measles, diptheria were all contagious with roughly comparable mortality rates and long term side effects.     This is what the anti-vaxxers want to go back to, only all the time.

At least antibiotics are still working, despite certain countries allowing them to be fed to livestock and other unnecessary uses.

We all think technology is about smart phones and the internet, when the biological sciences have made huge strides.

[Schaefer Light]

I'm done with it.  I ate in one restaurant last week, and another one today.  Went hiking with a friend yesterday.  I'm going on a golf trip next weekend.  I hope everyone else stays home, though.  I like the reduced traffic.

[Bloop Bloop]

I've definitely noticed a surge in vehicle traffic.

The situation in Aus is different though. When people aren't dying, or even being infected, in large numbers, the government lockdown isn't going to be as persuasive nor as effective.

[RetiredAt63]

So much this.