Think I might have taken a job in a toxic workplace

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

So how do I handle this one??? The pay is pretty good, the actual duties are fine but the people are kind of awful. I'm having major issues with a woman that I will eventually be expected to manage. A woman hired after me is having issues with other staff. A woman hired 6 months before me is already in a formal complaint situation after being bullied by her manager! The company 'seems' to be taking this seriously and making an effort to improve the culture but the woman I'm having dramas with has already been performance managed several times without any discernible effect. She's had a serious misconduct warning, ffs. What would you do about this??? Stay or go? I feel like it's a really bad fit.

[poetdereves]

If I remember correctly from some previous posts this is a brand new job for you correct? And you’re making a lot more money than you were before? I’d say give it some time and feel things out. Being so new to the job you are a bit of an outsider still and a lot of it may be just some drama. Try to set yourself apart and not take part in the trivial things as much as possible. Show professionalism, solve problems, and do your best to put yourself above petty situations. Give it a bit of time, but if there are problems that you can’t solve set yourself up to get out of there quickly. Don’t jump the gun and leave before you try to work it out, but don’t stay just because you think the money is good.

[ender]

Nothing I read screams "toxic workplace" here.

The higher your position, the more interpersonal issues will become part of your job.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

If I remember correctly from some previous posts this is a brand new job for you correct? And you’re making a lot more money than you were before? I’d say give it some time and feel things out. Being so new to the job you are a bit of an outsider still and a lot of it may be just some drama. Try to set yourself apart and not take part in the trivial things as much as possible. Show professionalism, solve problems, and do your best to put yourself above petty situations. Give it a bit of time, but if there are problems that you can’t solve set yourself up to get out of there quickly. Don’t jump the gun and leave before you try to work it out, but don’t stay just because you think the money is good.

Yes, brand new. I've been here two months, and yes, it is more money. It's definitely not a nice place to work right now, and I'm worried that all the other newbies are having significant issues also. The woman who is under a formal bullying complaint is the HR manager, ffs!

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Nothing I read screams "toxic workplace" here.

The higher your position, the more interpersonal issues will become part of your job.

There's a big difference between interpersonal issues and a bullying culture. I've never worked in a place with so much drama, so much gossip, so many new hires experiencing serious negativity, and incumbent staff members with such a long history of poor behaviour. Everyone disagrees with people, or gets frustrated or has bad days. This ain't that.

[ender]

Nothing I read screams "toxic workplace" here.

The higher your position, the more interpersonal issues will become part of your job.

There's a big difference between interpersonal issues and a bullying culture. I've never worked in a place with so much drama, so much gossip, so many new hires experiencing serious negativity, and incumbent staff members with such a long history of poor behaviour. Everyone disagrees with people, or gets frustrated or has bad days. This ain't that.

Isn't the HR manager being investigated basically? Or what is the "formal complaint" referring to?

What more would you like to see happen?

[G-dog]

When a former colleague started at my ex-employer, she quickly fired someone with no previous problems at work, then she fired another person (“insubordination”). I wasn’t there yet, but of course heard about it. She didn’t have a great reputation for awhile, but long term I don’t think it hurt her much.

I think stay for awhile and try to figure out the culture. Talk with your supervisors for ideas on how to deal with your problem child. I would also ask (carefully) why the fuck someone with such an extensive history of poor performance / behavior is still working there. Is her former supervisor there? I would talk with them (what can you tell me about establishing a good working relationship with Bathsheba).  Study your company’s policies on all aspects of dealing with performance and behavior issues.  It’s very possible your company absolutely sucks at wotking within their own policies, but you really don’t want to go outside of the policies.

Good luck.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Nothing I read screams "toxic workplace" here.

The higher your position, the more interpersonal issues will become part of your job.

There's a big difference between interpersonal issues and a bullying culture. I've never worked in a place with so much drama, so much gossip, so many new hires experiencing serious negativity, and incumbent staff members with such a long history of poor behaviour. Everyone disagrees with people, or gets frustrated or has bad days. This ain't that.

Isn't the HR manager being investigated basically? Or what is the "formal complaint" referring to?

What more would you like to see happen?

Well, yes, they are being investigated. That's what is making me want to stay. They appear to be taking on the problem. On the other hand, it's the HR MANAGER! So clearly it's a giant problem. And the other 'on the other hand' is that the woman causing me difficulties has been through this process several times. Apparently, it's not a very vigorous process..... I'm really just in a 'what the hell have I signed on for??' space.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

When a former colleague started at my ex-employer, she quickly fired someone with no previous problems at work, then she fired another person (“insubordination”). I wasn’t there yet, but of course heard about it. She didn’t have a great reputation for awhile, but long term I don’t think it hurt her much.

I think stay for awhile and try to figure out the culture. Talk with your supervisors for ideas on how to deal with your problem child. I would also ask (carefully) why the fuck someone with such an extensive history of poor performance / behavior is still working there. Is her former supervisor there? I would talk with them (what can you tell me about establishing a good working relationship with Bathsheba).  Study your company’s policies on all aspects of dealing with performance and behavior issues.  It’s very possible your company absolutely sucks at wotking within their own policies, but you really don’t want to go outside of the policies.

Good luck.

Her former supervisor has moved sideways, and I have taken his position. He's told me that she will continue to be a problem and he was reduced to actually giving her lists of tasks daily. Some of which are still pending from July of last year. No one actually checked!

[SwordGuy]

Find out what the company policies are.  Follow them to the letter.   If in doubt. give the employee the benefit of the doubt.  Document it.

And if they don't perform, fire them, if you have that authority.

If not, let them decide that their life would be more pleasant if the got another job.

Employees actually LOVE when an asswipe fellow employee gets fired.  There work environment improves.

[G-dog]

True - difficult employees that appear to suffer no real consequences are bad for the morale of the other employees.

I think it’s fair to say this employee shouldn’t be getting any pay raises.  But even so, some people will stay.

Like SwordGuy said - document everything! It with be a PITA at the time, but will serve you long term. You will be having weekly if not more frequent  meetings with this employee. Send her copies of all the documents (and likely HR, but check your policies). Give clear, measurable, time-limited goals.  This can be really difficult in some jobs.

What hav3 your discussions with the employee been like? Have you asked her what work she likes doing, what her goals are? You can say your goal is to work with her to get her off disciplinary status, but if there is no improvement, she will be let go (check Ask A Manager | I think she instructs to avoid more vague language like “might be let go”)

[Sibley]

I'm in the same boat, but a little further in. Started in December, non-management role. No training, unrealistic expectations that they don't realize they have, people are shell shocked from toxic mgmt, etc. I could write a whole list but it's depressing. In my case, I'm looking around and do not see evidence that things are going to improve. I'm starting to job search now, but really did want to give them a solid chance to fix the problems. If I was seeing improvement, I'd stick around. But I'm not, and don't see any evidence that it will anytime soon.

You need to give this more time. It sounds like various things are in motion that might actually make a significant difference, so you need to give it enough time to play out. At a minimum, wait to see what happens with this investigation into the HR manager.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

True - difficult employees that appear to suffer no real consequences are bad for the morale of the other employees.

I think it’s fair to say this employee shouldn’t be getting any pay raises.  But even so, some people will stay.

Like SwordGuy said - document everything! It with be a PITA at the time, but will serve you long term. You will be having weekly if not more frequent  meetings with this employee. Send her copies of all the documents (and likely HR, but check your policies). Give clear, measurable, time-limited goals.  This can be really difficult in some jobs.

What hav3 your discussions with the employee been like? Have you asked her what work she likes doing, what her goals are? You can say your goal is to work with her to get her off disciplinary status, but if there is no improvement, she will be let go (check Ask A Manager | I think she instructs to avoid more vague language like “might be let go”)

There has been no positive communication with this woman. I've been stuck in the process side of things and will take over management later in the year. She knows this, but the few interactions I've had with her that involve telling her how something operates have resulted in her knowing better and using 'I don't like the way you're talking to me' to shut down the conversation.  Apparently that's her MO. Which makes her impossible to deal with.

I don't know who the fuck she thinks she is, but I can't see any talent whatsoever except that she obviously has a talent for surviving 'performance management'. I guess I'm stuck with it for now.

It doesn't help that we don't seem to have one thing other than the job in common. It's rare to find someone you have NOTHING in common with. Some of my best friends are complete opposites to me on paper, but we have at least a similar sense of humour or something. In two months I haven't found a single topic of conversation that she's willing to engage in beyond being her version of polite. Which is eye rolling, sighing and general flouncing around.

[Astreja]

...but the woman I'm having dramas with has already been performance managed several times without any discernible effect. She's had a serious misconduct warning, ffs. What would you do about this??? Stay or go? I feel like it's a really bad fit.

I'd sit it out a little while longer and observe how the company deals with the problems that are already on record.  If the woman mentioned above has already been formally warned, chances are they almost have enough on her file to justify dismissal and she may not be your problem much longer.

And when problems directly impact you or your work assignments, or you witness something that adversely affects a co-worker -- document, document, document!

[LeRainDrop]

I'm prone to inertia, so *I* probably would just end up staying a while to see how things play out. Truth be told, I did in fact stay in a very toxic/bullying workplace for a couple years (had also been there several years when it was not toxic). That said, here are some things to consider from Alison Green at Ask A Manager:  5 Reasons to Leave Your Toxic Job Right Now

[Goldielocks]

Okay,  I will post this here.

I have been FIRED from my high paid / stress job for just over a year.  In that time, I have rested, continued to teach night school, took a huge vacation and am starting a side hustle.   Wonderful, in other words.

My work life was stressing me out.  I had severe enough digestive issues that I ended up at the doctor's office for a series of screenings and then an allergist, and then a naturopath.   I had another doctor at the age of 35, 10years ago, when I was 40lb lighter than I am today (and biking to work so exercising), try to put me on a lifetime prescription for high blood pressure (144/90 If I recall).  I refused, but struggled with BP ever since.

Today, out of the blue, and in the middle of running around, I sat down and got a BP reading at Walmart (not a relaxing place for me).

My blood pressure was 108/80.    !!!   Because I am no longer working at stressful job. !!!

-------------------------------------------
TLDR
Watch out for stress.   Find ways to get Ms. PITA out of your sphere.    If it gets too toxic, you owe it to yourself to fix it before it impacts your health.

[former player]

OP: Nothing you have said so far directly impacts the job you are doing at the moment.  You have heard complaints from female co-workers, had news about the HR manager being investigated, and will be the manager for a poor performing worker in a few month's time but not yet.  Is that right?

If so, please consider carefully why you are hearing all this stuff which doesn't directly impact you but which is making you question this well paid job with duties you like.   You are getting a lot of gossip about things which don't relate to your actual job.  Why is that?  Who are these people who are spilling secrets to a newbie, and why are they doing it?  What are their positions in the organisation relative to yours?  Please consider their motives.  What about the people who are not gossiping to you?  What are their positions in the organisation and how do you relate to them?  Are you being sidelined into a toxic subculture?

As others have said, document your interactions with the future underling.  Her behaviour is insubordinate (eyerolling, etc.), so document that too.  Document tasks not done for a year (although how vital are they, if they haven't been done for a year and the sky hasn't fallen in?).  Look up the procedures for dismissal so that you can implement them as soon as something worthy of dismissal has been done when she is under your management: don't do "performance management", do "dismissal procedures".

Good luck.

[Hula Hoop]

I agree with FP.  I worked in a truly toxic workplace and quit after less than 3 weeks with no job to go to thanks to FU money (I should put the story on that thread) but the behavior was observed directly by me - it wasn't second or third hand.  I directly saw the big boss being an abusive jerk to several underlings and engaging in extremely inappropriate/sexist/harassing behavior.  I knew that it was just a matter of time until i became the next victim as this is just the kind of guy he was and he ran the show.  If I understand correctly, the information you have is all second hand, so I'd verify this directly by observing carefully before making any rash moves if I were in your shoes.

Keep your eyes open about the co-workers you have been warned about as well as the ones who told you the gossip.  Trust no one at your workplace.  At the same time,  judgment until you observe bad behavior directly.  Then start job searching.  If you can stick it out at this workplace for at least a year it will make things much easier.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Thanks everyone. I've just come from a toxic workplace and I'm leery of getting into the same situation! I'm really unhappy about the things I've seen, and I don't have confidence in the processes that have implemented. I guess we'll see. It's a small team, maybe 20 people at the head office of an organisation that has 100 medical staff in the field. The stuff that's gone on I HAVE seen myself. It's not second or third hand. In fact, part of the reason that the HR manager is under investigation is that I reported some behaviour to MY manager.

The tasks that have been incomplete for a year relate to invoicing. This is money the company hasn't got, because it hasn't been invoiced for. This is a bulk funded medical organisation that is essentially paid by a government department. This is exactly the stuff I was employed to find and create checks and balances that prevent anything further slipping through the cracks.

This company just feels like a disaster. Senior management seems to be trying to do something about it. I have no idea, really. I guess I'm stuck here for the foreseeable, so I'll just keep my eyes open and document everything.

[Just Joe]

In the meantime make sure you "don't give a flip" is totally charged up each day. Cover your backside, document everything as suggested, get your work done as well as you can, and stockpile cash so when/if it goes totally sour you can leave on your terms. I'd ride it out six months and then if it is still a lousy place to work start looking for something else. Don't want to job hop too much and lead future employers to believe there is something wrong with you rather than the past employers.

[KeeKat]

I'm in the same boat, but a little further in. Started in December, non-management role. No training, unrealistic expectations that they don't realize they have, people are shell shocked from toxic mgmt, etc. I could write a whole list but it's depressing. In my case, I'm looking around and do not see evidence that things are going to improve. I'm starting to job search now, but really did want to give them a solid chance to fix the problems. If I was seeing improvement, I'd stick around. But I'm not, and don't see any evidence that it will anytime soon.

You need to give this more time. It sounds like various things are in motion that might actually make a significant difference, so you need to give it enough time to play out. At a minimum, wait to see what happens with this investigation into the HR manager.

I've experienced this with the job I started last fall, too. Unrealistic expectations are the worst - I'm seen as a naysayer when I try to redefine goals or get clarification. When management doesn't understand your position or how it works, it's incredibly frustration.

Anna, my current setup is around 20 staff, too. I've found there's a LOT more personality clashing and power grabbing happening in this small staff vs. megacorp that I've worked at before. Lots of drama, everyone is in your business ALL THE TIME and most of these people have been here 5, 10 or more years. Change is not happening. I completely feel your pain. I wish I would have started looking for a new job sooner.

[calimom]

In the meantime make sure you "don't give a flip" is totally charged up each day. Cover your backside, document everything as suggested, get your work done as well as you can, and stockpile cash so when/if it goes totally sour you can leave on your terms. I'd ride it out six months and then if it is still a lousy place to work start looking for something else. Don't want to job hop too much and lead future employers to believe there is something wrong with you rather than the past employers.

THIS is a really good plan of action. Try to remember it's called 'work' for a reason. Personalities will clash, there are differences of opinion. Unless you feel you're unduly put upon, just do your job and go home each day. It's best to not get drawn into the drama. As I remember from previous posts, in your former job you felt the owners of the company were not up to snuff. You left there due to the drama and feeling under-apprecatied. It's clear you're a hardworking, ethical person, but hopefully you can keep your eye on the prize with this job (FI at least) and soldier through.

Wishing you the best!

[Step37]

The tasks that have been incomplete for a year relate to invoicing. This is money the company hasn't got, because it hasn't been invoiced for. This is a bulk funded medical organisation that is essentially paid by a government department. This is exactly the stuff I was employed to find and create checks and balances that prevent anything further slipping through the cracks.

Um, what the actual FUCK?! How do things not get invoiced for a whole year? That in itself should be cause for dismissal (I can’t really imagine extenuating circumstances that would make that acceptable — as a bookkeeper/business manager, this makes my head spin/🤯), never mind her terrible attitude. I agree with the advice to document everything and (if it’s within your scope) begin dismissal procedures as soon as you’re able.

I looked after the accounting (plus other areas at times) of an industrial medical company for a number of years. We started with about six office staff, which grew to nearly 20, and 50-200 field staff depending on the season. It became incredibly toxic (there was one banner day that the company president started drinking during the morning meeting, continued through the day, and sideswiped my car, parked beside his, as he was leaving the office at 8 p.m. — I was still working — 12k damage) and I left very soon after the company got sold (about 15 months after the car incident). Anyway, the fact that’s it’s a similar industry makes this thread quite interesting for me. I hope it turns around for you and ends up working out.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

The tasks that have been incomplete for a year relate to invoicing. This is money the company hasn't got, because it hasn't been invoiced for. This is a bulk funded medical organisation that is essentially paid by a government department. This is exactly the stuff I was employed to find and create checks and balances that prevent anything further slipping through the cracks.

Um, what the actual FUCK?! How do things not get invoiced for a whole year? That in itself should be cause for dismissal (I can’t really imagine extenuating circumstances that would make that acceptable — as a bookkeeper/business manager, this makes my head spin/🤯), never mind her terrible attitude. I agree with the advice to document everything and (if it’s within your scope) begin dismissal procedures as soon as you’re able.

I looked after the accounting (plus other areas at times) of an industrial medical company for a number of years. We started with about six office staff, which grew to nearly 20, and 50-200 field staff depending on the season. It became incredibly toxic (there was one banner day that the company president started drinking during the morning meeting, continued through the day, and sideswiped my car, parked beside his, as he was leaving the office at 8 p.m. — I was still working — 12k damage) and I left very soon after the company got sold (about 15 months after the car incident). Anyway, the fact that’s it’s a similar industry makes this thread quite interesting for me. I hope it turns around for you and ends up working out.

I know, right?!! I hate this shit. Unfortunately, there are extenuating circumstances. This is a new type of contract released by the gov dept, and it has gone through several iterations in the last 12 months. Because of that, this company has gone through several methods of billing in the last 12 months. Things have been missed in various cross overs, and we're not talking about huge amounts of money. The thing that pisses me off is that the previous manager didn't actually physically check what was going on, and the current staff haven't got enough sense to run a report for longer than the billing period, and they bill weekly. First thing I did was run that report for a year. There are no checks and balances - but that's why I was hired. My manager knows they have stupid systems and are missing things.

I just cannot BELIEVE that the HR manager is being done for bullying. I mean the frickin HR MANAGER!

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

So... to update. This is definitely a toxic culture in a number of aspects, the most pressing of which for me is the requirement to work alongside the bloody office drama queen. Her latest move has been to take my offer to help her out in an area she's behind on and twist this into me bitching about my line manager - and then to run to said line manager and tell on me. First I knew of it was line manager asking me about it today. This is not the first time she's run and told on me for some imagined bollocks. I've had it. Told the operations manager today that I will be looking for another job. This is NZ. We have employment laws. They can't fire me, so no need to be all secret and underhanded. I'm looking forward to not being in this godawful frickin job!

[KeeKat]

Anna, did you get out of your toxic workplace?

I'm leaving mine at the end of this week to begin freelancing. I'm definitely taking a hit financially, but I have FU money and the stress was talking a toll on my mental and physical health.

Hope you've been able to make it out of there, or are planning to do so soon! :)