Author Topic: The tradgey of inheritance  (Read 36278 times)

GardenFun

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #100 on: February 16, 2015, 04:29:51 PM »
The thread can wait. If you gotta vent, you have a place here.

Agree.  I (and probably a few others here) have gone through similar circumstances with ones we cared about.  Let the feelings out. 
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 06:12:52 PM by GardenFun »

PatStab

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #101 on: February 16, 2015, 04:55:24 PM »
My mom left me their small farm about 15 years ago I guess it was.  It was 25 acres and a house.  When she first had to go to senior housing I sold the house and added it to her money to help keep her.  I kept the farmland till 2 years ago, all her other money went to care for her as it should be.  My husband kept wanting me to sell it but I didn't want to.  The folks gave $3500 for all of it in the 40's. 

There was a strip mine north of it and they wanted to walk their huge shovel out across 6 acres of it. They paid me $18000 to do so.  Then the guy that farmed it owned all the land north and south of it so he really wanted that piece too, he owned something like a mile and a half of land and mine was in the middle of it.  He paid me $170,000 for it!!  With capital gains, it was valued at $30k when mom gave it to me, the taxes were quite a lot.  But still I did good.  I took that money and put it into this our last house along with a rent house we sold and paid cash.  I was not about to waste that money.  My folks had work so hard to hang onto that house and land I would not do that.  They would be thrilled to know what I did.  The ironic thing is that land would not have been worth that much to anyone else, and he died less then 2 years after that so I did the right thing. 

I have been beyond fortunate in my financial dealings through the years and that helped us get ahead.
Also our house in Texas on 2 acres we bought for $25000 in 1992, we spent about $100k on it and sold it for $230,000 so another winner plus we lived there for over 20 years really really cheap.  I like playing with real estate, all our rentals made us money and we only took a loss on one.  The only reason being we had just finished it and not got it rented but we came out ok on it far as we are concerned.

I too hate to see people waste inheritance money.  I'm hoping to keep all the I bonds we have and maybe have them go to our grandson for college and getting started in life.  They have almost 15 more years to earn and they are earning really well.  He may have enough to pay for college, buy a car, and possibly cover other expenses if we can do it.  I hope he too will use the money wisely.

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #102 on: February 16, 2015, 08:29:00 PM »
At what level of net worth does it make sense to look into creating a spendthrift trust?  If a total market fund four percent withdrawal rate in life can last forever, a two percent total market spendthrift trust can last forever and keep growing.  This is of course assuming the administrative fee is less than two percent.  What do administrative fees go for?

The way I see it, if you are good with money and don't need the windfall, the small distribution every year will be a bonus you can count on.  If you are bad with money and likely to lose the entire inheritance in a few months, then the small distribution will allow some luxuries while not allowing the individual to experience a crash of loss of wealth.

Lia-Aimee

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #103 on: February 18, 2015, 12:09:29 PM »
Cookie78 - I'm so very sorry for your loss.


Inheritance squabbling caused a lot of family drama on my mum's side in the past. My parents recently made a will leaving me as the executor (for which I'm entitled to 10%) and then I get 40% and sister gets 60% (making it 50/50.) That's cool with me.

However, I'm a bit concerned that when my dad passes, my mum will write sister out of the will (they don't get along.) I hope that as the executor, I could find that out and hide it from her, just cutting her a cheque (anyone have experience with this?) Depending on her financial situation at the time (we're just in our 20's, but she's a high school dropout, which is arguably not wholly her fault) I might ensure she gets extra.

NICE!

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #104 on: February 18, 2015, 12:53:18 PM »
However, I'm a bit concerned that when my dad passes, my mum will write sister out of the will (they don't get along.) I hope that as the executor, I could find that out and hide it from her, just cutting her a cheque (anyone have experience with this?) Depending on her financial situation at the time (we're just in our 20's, but she's a high school dropout, which is arguably not wholly her fault) I might ensure she gets extra.

I discussed my MIL situation earlier in this thread and I think I'm changing my mind on it. If the mother wishes that she does not receive anything, I have to wonder if it is best to go against her wishes. I don't know, I'm still struggling with that. But if you just happen to give your sister a gift the size of 50% of the estate, maybe that works. It is a little bit of logical gymnastics, but it might work for me/you/some people.

In my case, we've discussed doing what you say...but we'd be throwing away MIL's hard-earned money by giving it to the two other sisters. I also asked about making a trust to give them the money slowly but someone made the wise point that might really strain their relationship with DW since she'd be 'controlling' them like children.

The final option is to just give the other person's cut to charity.

Tabaxus

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #105 on: February 18, 2015, 07:39:37 PM »
However, I'm a bit concerned that when my dad passes, my mum will write sister out of the will (they don't get along.) I hope that as the executor, I could find that out and hide it from her, just cutting her a cheque (anyone have experience with this?) Depending on her financial situation at the time (we're just in our 20's, but she's a high school dropout, which is arguably not wholly her fault) I might ensure she gets extra.

I discussed my MIL situation earlier in this thread and I think I'm changing my mind on it. If the mother wishes that she does not receive anything, I have to wonder if it is best to go against her wishes. I don't know, I'm still struggling with that. But if you just happen to give your sister a gift the size of 50% of the estate, maybe that works. It is a little bit of logical gymnastics, but it might work for me/you/some people.

In my case, we've discussed doing what you say...but we'd be throwing away MIL's hard-earned money by giving it to the two other sisters. I also asked about making a trust to give them the money slowly but someone made the wise point that might really strain their relationship with DW since she'd be 'controlling' them like children.

The final option is to just give the other person's cut to charity.

Keep in mind how quickly you might run into gift tax implications with that kind of thing, and leave a setaside for it.

Lia-Aimee

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #106 on: February 18, 2015, 10:20:45 PM »
@Tabaxus: great point, thank you! The bulk of my parents net worth is in the house (well, as of now, but mum adamantly plans to die there) so perhaps selling it to sis very cheaply would work. Or complicate it further.
@NICE!: I can see how it's much more complicated in your situation. It seems a bit like a "damned if you do..." kind of situation because I imagine if you accept your inheritance and don't share, there'll be a ton of resentment; if you do create a trust they'll resent you for being manipulative, and if you share they'll waste it. I'm not sure what I would do if I were you. My situation is a bit different in that while sister is not the best with money and has made some sub-par life choices, some (all?) of that is due to the fact that growing up with the mum was rather traumatic. Plus, my father wants sister in the will, and it's his hard-earned money, so no guilt here :)

Tabaxus

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #107 on: February 19, 2015, 06:40:53 AM »
@Tabaxus: great point, thank you! The bulk of my parents net worth is in the house (well, as of now, but mum adamantly plans to die there) so perhaps selling it to sis very cheaply would work. Or complicate it further.
@NICE!: I can see how it's much more complicated in your situation. It seems a bit like a "damned if you do..." kind of situation because I imagine if you accept your inheritance and don't share, there'll be a ton of resentment; if you do create a trust they'll resent you for being manipulative, and if you share they'll waste it. I'm not sure what I would do if I were you. My situation is a bit different in that while sister is not the best with money and has made some sub-par life choices, some (all?) of that is due to the fact that growing up with the mum was rather traumatic. Plus, my father wants sister in the will, and it's his hard-earned money, so no guilt here :)

The difference between the FMV of the house and the amount you sell it for would be at risk of being treated as a gift.  The IRS tends to extract its pound of flesh;)

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #108 on: February 19, 2015, 07:26:51 AM »
Anyone who would be hurt by their parents' decision about who to give their money to is silly.  Why on earth do you think you have any right to any expectations with respect to how your parents will distribute their resources?

In my case it's because the trend has been for not only financial but also emotional and time resources to be prioritized away from me and towards my sister. 

Sorry, but I don't think that it's silly for a child to expect their parents to at least maintain a semi-believable illusion of loving all their children equally.

I agree with you- but I'm also of the opinion that fair isn't equal.  I once joked that my parents owed me like $100k, because I went to a cheap public university on scholarship and my sister went to an expensive private school without one- but it was only a joke.  What was "fair" was that they provided us both with an undergrad education. What was not equal was the money spent to do it.

I expect my sister to get more of my parents inheritance than me, because she has 3 children and I have none.  I would imagine my parents' will is written to proportion more money to her so that it ends up going to the kids in the end; but to prevent wasteful spending, not to the kids directly.  Although it won't surprise me if they skip the two of us entirely and set up trusts for the kids to get after they finish college.  We've always been told not to expect much of an inheritance- so I'd guess a lot goes to charity, or, as they often say they will- they spend it all before they die.  (In high school, I remember my sister asking my Mom if we were rich.  She told her "Your Dad and I are rich. You and your sister are not."  That said, they aren't rich in like super duper terms, just relative to the "american middle class" thing- they are above that- I doubt we are talking about that much money in the end.)

sweetproserpina

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #109 on: February 19, 2015, 07:33:05 AM »
Here's an interesting question, what about stuff vs. money in an inheritance?

My mother has always told me that I will inherit the family antiques/heirlooms and my brother will get an equal amount in cash. This makes sense as I am more interested in being the historian/custodian of these things (as i am a historian, and former museum worker). However, it's just occurred to me that as a custodian these would not benefit me in a direct monetary way. It would be morally wrong (to me) to achieve financial gain from selling them. I would be passing them on to my children or my brother's children (whomever became the next family historian/custodian)  So my brother would be looking at a cash windfall, while I might end up having to pay (ie. Insurance) to keep my portion of inherited stuff.

Is this equal, is this fair? Fair but not equal, equal but not fair.... Thoughts?*



*This is merely for discussion, as I am totally okay (more than okay) with my mother's decision, as is my brother.. it suits our personalities, lives etc.

Villanelle

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #110 on: February 19, 2015, 07:40:07 AM »
Here's an interesting question, what about stuff vs. money in an inheritance?

My mother has always told me that I will inherit the family antiques/heirlooms and my brother will get an equal amount in cash. This makes sense as I am more interested in being the historian/custodian of these things (as i am a historian, and former museum worker). However, it's just occurred to me that as a custodian these would not benefit me in a direct monetary way. It would be morally wrong (to me) to achieve financial gain from selling them. I would be passing them on to my children or my brother's children (whomever became the next family historian/custodian)  So my brother would be looking at a cash windfall, while I might end up having to pay (ie. Insurance) to keep my portion of inherited stuff.

Is this equal, is this fair? Fair but not equal, equal but not fair.... Thoughts?*



*This is merely for discussion, as I am totally okay (more than okay) with my mother's decision, as is my brother.. it suits our personalities, lives etc.

Interesting question to ponder.

To me, it would depend on several things.  Would your mom be okay if you wanted to sell those things?  If so, then keeping them (rather than converting them to cash via sale) is your choice, so think it does end up mostly equal.  Also, have you expressed interest in having those items, or was the decision made without your input that you'd get stuff and he'd get money?

In your mom's shoes, it's not the decision I'd probably make (not knowing what input she's gotten from you and your brother, of course).  If it was a given that those things would stay in the family, I'd treat them as separate from the money, and probably divide the money equally and make you "custodian" of the family treasures as well, since I'd see them as mostly separate.  But if you and your brother and your mom think her method is fair, then it seems like a good solution.

In the end, the fact that you are okay with it is really all that matters.  Well, perhaps that and the fact that it sounds like your mother has actually discussed it with you ahead of time, which I think goes a very long way. 

Sibley

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #111 on: February 19, 2015, 10:09:47 AM »
My mom has a ton of furniture, dishes, pictures etc that are all family related. Almost all of it is from people that my sister and I don't remember/never knew. While there are certain items that one or both of us would like, there's still a large amount that we do not want. Mom of course will not get rid of anything because she has emotional attachments to it.

We're all very careful not to discuss this issue because it upsets mom so much. I suspect that at some point, my sister and I will have a ton of parent's stuff, and then start whittling it down. What does she want, what do I want, what do other family want, etc. After that, sell or donate. We have plenty of time before it becomes an issue though, and hopefully mom will cull so we don't have to.

rocketpj

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #112 on: February 19, 2015, 10:21:35 AM »
I watched my Dad go through a very painful process of sorting and disposing of all of my grandparents' things when they died.  It was made worse by the fact my Dad had a farm with a lot of storage space, which allowed him to put off letting go of some things.

That said, I won't have that problem.  I sincerely hope that a few of the key items - specifically some paintings created by my G-G-Grandfather (an Impressionist of some note) are distributed according to the will as I really don't want to fight with my sister about them.  To me or her is irrelevant as neither of us is likely to sell them, but they have some significant value and I really would rather not have conflict about it.  There are a few other minor items that have similar interest as well.

MayDay

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #113 on: February 19, 2015, 10:53:40 AM »
I think stuff and money should be divided separately.  Whoever wants stuff should get stuff.  Then the money should be split. 

In my family, it's been easy with the deaths so far.  You divide the stuff.  Some people want it, some don't.  The leftover stuff goes to goodwill.  Then the money is divided as per the will.  In my family there have been a handful of valuable items (nice furniture) that the direct heirs have gotten, and most of the day to day stuff has gone to grandchildren for first apartment/first house use. 

Capsu78

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #114 on: February 19, 2015, 11:07:07 AM »
I had a SIL who started putting post  it notes on the back of the "things she wanted"...and then would "joke about it" in front of all of us and as well as her still living mother.
Cringe inducing to me and most others. 

ambimammular

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #115 on: February 19, 2015, 11:17:58 AM »
My MIL remarried late in the game (DH and I have been married longer than she and her husband have.) MIL brought the shirt on her back and her winning personality and he had a paid off house, land, some retirement etc.

A few years back they let all the kids, two from his family and four from hers, know they were intending that it all be split six ways. As an outsider I sure don't have an opinion to express. (Well I don't mind telling you all ;) But If I was one of the new husband's two sons I'd be a little miffed to see my share go from 1/2 to 1/6. I can already see it brewing in one of the step-SIL. Who, in my opinion, should not have an opinion either ;)

Capsu78

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #116 on: February 19, 2015, 11:38:35 AM »
My MIL remarried late in the game (DH and I have been married longer than she and her husband have.) MIL brought the shirt on her back and her winning personality and he had a paid off house, land, some retirement etc.

A few years back they let all the kids, two from his family and four from hers, know they were intending that it all be split six ways. As an outsider I sure don't have an opinion to express. (Well I don't mind telling you all ;) But If I was one of the new husband's two sons I'd be a little miffed to see my share go from 1/2 to 1/6. I can already see it brewing in one of the step-SIL. Who, in my opinion, should not have an opinion either ;)

I saw a similar situation just last year- the death of a business partner, husband with a business, still living younger spouse and an equal# of adult children on each side.  Guys barely in the ground after being sick for over a year and his son approaches step mom asking about "what can we expect in terms of inheritance?"  I would have paid to have pay per view on her reply which I'm told went along the lines of- "...here is the will, all assets rolling over to me to fund my life decisions and anything left over will be split equally upon my death.  I intend to live long and not have the will rewritten...unless you really piss me off...like you are doing right now".

My point in sharing is that back on page 1 of this thread, I brought up "having the conversation".  The husband had 4 major surgeries in the past decade and yet appears his adult children never came forward to have this conversation face to face with his biological parent.

Parents- have the conversation with your children.   You don't want your wishes to be "misunderstood" after you are gone.
Children- have the conversation with your parents.   You don't want your parents wishes to be "misunderstood" after they are gone.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 02:29:33 PM by Capsu78 »

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #117 on: February 19, 2015, 11:54:30 AM »
I had a SIL who started putting post  it notes on the back of the "things she wanted"...and then would "joke about it" in front of all of us and as well as her still living mother.
Cringe inducing to me and most others.

My husband's grandmother has started post-it noting her stuff.  If you say you like something, your name gets stuck on the back of it...

It's creepy, though less so than what you describe- because at least she owns these things.

Villanelle

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #118 on: February 19, 2015, 12:28:37 PM »
I had a SIL who started putting post  it notes on the back of the "things she wanted"...and then would "joke about it" in front of all of us and as well as her still living mother.
Cringe inducing to me and most others.

My parents frequently joke that Sister and I need to do this.  And while there are no actual post-its, there are a few sentimental items that, when I've expressed a great memory around them, mom has told me I should consider that mine when the time comes.  They aren't high value (mom's cedar hope chest, her charm bracelet, which probably is worth  several hundred because it is gold, and a painting that has no real value). 

SK Joyous

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #119 on: February 19, 2015, 01:09:22 PM »
This has been some thoughtful discussion for thought, thank you.  I now think I will have a conversation with my brother in the near future about the (hopefully far-off) time we have to deal with our parents' wishes.  I know I am Executor, and it is just my bro and I (and we both have families) so shouldn't be too much conflict; while I am more 'successful' financially than he is, he is also just fine, and I would never ever want money to come between my brother and I.  I sincerely hope my parents spend all of their hard-earned money making themselves happy and building memories and doing what they like - in an ideal world they would spend their last dollar the day they died at a very old age with a smile on their faces :) 

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #120 on: February 19, 2015, 01:56:43 PM »
At what level of net worth does it make sense to look into creating a spendthrift trust?  If a total market fund four percent withdrawal rate in life can last forever, a two percent total market spendthrift trust can last forever and keep growing.  This is of course assuming the administrative fee is less than two percent.  What do administrative fees go for?

The way I see it, if you are good with money and don't need the windfall, the small distribution every year will be a bonus you can count on.  If you are bad with money and likely to lose the entire inheritance in a few months, then the small distribution will allow some luxuries while not allowing the individual to experience a crash of loss of wealth.

This approach definitely has its advantages, when considering the end result of most lottery winners.  I'll note that the demographic skews toward folks who are not great with money anyway as anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of statistics knows it's generally a bad bet.  Anyway, it's common knowledge that most lotto winners end up in worse financial shape, blowing through the stache in short order and winding up in crazy amounts of debt. 

I'll also readily admit that it's still easy to spend the annual allowance on stupid crap, but at least it provides a buffer between an irresponsible person and the inheritance money.  I agree with your sentiment that said money should remain invested in the trust fund. I always tell people that if I had an unexpected windfall, I'd put 99% of it into retiring debts and buying assets like stocks or rental houses. 

dunhamjr

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #121 on: February 19, 2015, 02:11:36 PM »
we are set to inherit between 1-2M, from my mom and her parents.

this money is completely unaccounted for in my retirement planning.  if/when we get the money it will be a bonus on top of what i am already doing.

and it if turned out that the parents ended up spending their last dime as they clocked out 30yrs from now, i couldnt imagine being any happier.

i dont need the money.  i want them to spend the money on whatever the want or need.

i think those of use here on MMM are likely going to take a windfall like this a LOT differently than your average non-mustachian would.

Kaspian

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #122 on: February 19, 2015, 02:47:00 PM »
these people worked their entire lives to generate this wealth to live on and/or pass down and that lifetime of work and savings

This is why I still have most of the $$ inherited from my dad 3.5 years ago, and it is instrumental to my FIRE plans.  He worked his ass off and sacrificed to save this money.  There's no way I'm going to blow it on stupid shit.


Fuckin' A!  Before he passed, my grandpa gave me $7000 from the sale of a car.  That money is still floating, never spent, somewhere in my investments.   It seems a bit weird to take inherited/given money and just throw it in the big pile instead of spending to commemorate.  But hell, the real memories and commemorations are in my head, not somewhere on the deck of a lavish Caribbean cruise.  That tough, old badass bugger wouldn't appreciate (or respect) me spending it on something lavish and luxurious anyway.

Kaspian

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #123 on: February 19, 2015, 02:55:42 PM »
At what level of net worth does it make sense to look into creating a spendthrift trust?  If a total market fund four percent withdrawal rate in life can last forever, a two percent total market spendthrift trust can last forever and keep growing.  This is of course assuming the administrative fee is less than two percent.  What do administrative fees go for?

The way I see it, if you are good with money and don't need the windfall, the small distribution every year will be a bonus you can count on.  If you are bad with money and likely to lose the entire inheritance in a few months, then the small distribution will allow some luxuries while not allowing the individual to experience a crash of loss of wealth.

This approach definitely has its advantages, when considering the end result of most lottery winners.  I'll note that the demographic skews toward folks who are not great with money anyway as anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of statistics knows it's generally a bad bet.  Anyway, it's common knowledge that most lotto winners end up in worse financial shape, blowing through the stache in short order and winding up in crazy amounts of debt. 

I'll also readily admit that it's still easy to spend the annual allowance on stupid crap, but at least it provides a buffer between an irresponsible person and the inheritance money.  I agree with your sentiment that said money should remain invested in the trust fund. I always tell people that if I had an unexpected windfall, I'd put 99% of it into retiring debts and buying assets like stocks or rental houses.

All interesting ideas I'd like to know the answers to.  You know that saying, "shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations"?  Generation #1:  Poor hard workers, push their kids to get a good education and get good jobs.  Generation #2:  Does work hard to achieve their parents' goals, does well, better jobs and income, and saves money.  Generation #3:  Doesn't need to work hard, becomes lazy, inherits then squanders the money, and puts the whole family line is back to square one.

It'd be good to set up fail safes so none of your family's descendants could act like fools with your stash.

infogoon

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #124 on: February 20, 2015, 07:22:30 AM »
All interesting ideas I'd like to know the answers to.  You know that saying, "shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations"?  Generation #1:  Poor hard workers, push their kids to get a good education and get good jobs.  Generation #2:  Does work hard to achieve their parents' goals, does well, better jobs and income, and saves money.  Generation #3:  Doesn't need to work hard, becomes lazy, inherits then squanders the money, and puts the whole family line is back to square one.

It'd be good to set up fail safes so none of your family's descendants could act like fools with your stash.

"The first generation works their fingers to the bone making things, the next generation goes to college and innovates new ideas, the third generation... snowboards and takes improv classes."

RetiredAt63

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #125 on: February 20, 2015, 07:30:13 AM »
I've been reading Good to Great and one of the themes of making a good company great is focusing on a realistic Big Hairy Audacious Goal (BHAG, their term) and sticking with it.  If we think of families over the generations, shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations is the equivalent of a company that keeps changing goals, gets great and then stops being great.  If our sensible BHAG money management goals can be passed to children and grandchildren, we are using the same strategies as the great companies. What is actually done with the money will differ, but having it certainly opens up options, providing the next generation doesn't end up being Princes and Princesses (a la Gail Vaz-Oxlade).

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #126 on: February 20, 2015, 08:06:42 AM »
[quote author=sweetproserpina link=topic=31739.msg561587#msg561587 date=1424356385.

Is this equal, is this fair? Fair but not equal, equal but not fair.... Thoughts?*

*This is merely for discussion, as I am totally okay (more than okay) with my mother's decision, as is my brother.. it suits our personalities, lives etc.
[/quote]


for one thing I don't think it's practical to value antiques for much money. Unless you are very astute as to the wholesale price, and that's what you will get is wholesale price, money should not come into the valuation of the gift.

How many pieces will your mother leave you? Are we talking about a house full of stuff? And from what century? Are you talking about reallyvaluable pieces such as American 18th century furniture?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 02:24:44 PM by iris lily »

partgypsy

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #127 on: February 20, 2015, 08:17:33 AM »
I think often about the shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves or variants as that kind of thing has happened in my family, both sides, multiple times.  My mother experienced all that in one generation. Her parents were not well off, but her father came from a respected established family. Her mother from a farm family with many children. So while my mother did not grow up with the finer things in life, she knew relatives,ancestors like that. Her grandmother paid for her to go to college. My father was a self-made man, first generation American. His grandfather was someone who was considered very smart and also pulled himself up by his bootstraps with thriving business, but his unexpected death, and his son's illness and then death meant everything they built was lost. So, father moved to the US and started all over and build his way up to creating a financially successful life. My mother's way of dealing? Though she didn't spend a lot on herself (didn't know how) she had us kids especially her daughters enrolled in summer art classes, camps, horseback riding lessons, all the things she wished she could have done as a child but didn't have an opportunity to. We were also never given any real world lessons on money, or limitations where we would apply for college.  My father had a major business setback while I was in college, parents divorced. So they ended up losing everything. My father did it again, building up from nothing, having a successful business that provided jobs for the rest of my siblings, but then lost all that in last recession.  Neither have anything for retirement, other than social security.
Anyways one of the things that I wanted to point out, it is not necessarily the younger generation's "fault" they are not as "hungry" at making money and being successful, because consciously or not, the parents may have compensated for their own deprivations with their kids, and maybe didn't want their children to worry or be concerned about money, which is a luxury for only the extremely wealthy.

Chuck

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #128 on: February 20, 2015, 09:04:12 AM »
It is a huge shame. Instead of using that wealth to build a legacy of freedom for themselves and theirs they waste it chasing bullshit.

I'm going to echo those who have mentioned trusts. "Trust Fund" is a dirty word thanks to politics, but it is far, far preferable to simply giving your kids full control of your shit when you die.

As much as MMM preaches how awesome working hard for what you get is, I still think it's bullshit. I would love to leave a legacy of freedom to my progeny, allowing them a stipend that gives them the freedom to be an artist, traveler/adventurer, poet, philosopher or just a permanent scholar... any number of things that are typically financially ruinous.

My little employees will continue to multiply and disburse themselves, protected from stupidly being squandered by a wall of trust law, and the freedom I have attained can be given to (hopefully) a larger and larger group of people from birth.

Kaspian

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #129 on: February 20, 2015, 10:30:03 AM »
I think often about the shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves or variants as that kind of thing has happened in my family, both sides, multiple times.

I'm pretty sure with mine too.  They family line came to North America in the 1600s on the damn Mayflower for Chrissakes!  Theoretically we should be "old money" by now, but nope... We've had 400 years to sort this shit out but didn't?!  WTF?!!  Here we are, all still working like blue and white collar suckas.

RFAAOATB

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #130 on: February 20, 2015, 10:37:52 AM »
I think often about the shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves or variants as that kind of thing has happened in my family, both sides, multiple times.

I'm pretty sure with mine too.  They family line came to North America in the 1600s on the damn Mayflower for Chrissakes!  Theoretically we should be "old money" by now, but nope... We've had 400 years to sort this shit out but didn't?!  WTF?!!  Here we are, all still working like blue and white collar suckas.

Considering Obama and Bush are distant cousins with a common relative in the 1600's, perhaps out of the past 400 years one strain of lineage made it and you just don't know it.  People tended to have more kids back then so it is more likely one side struck gold.

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #131 on: February 20, 2015, 01:25:40 PM »
It is a huge shame. Instead of using that wealth to build a legacy of freedom for themselves and theirs they waste it chasing bullshit.

I'm going to echo those who have mentioned trusts. "Trust Fund" is a dirty word thanks to politics, but it is far, far preferable to simply giving your kids full control of your shit when you die.

As much as MMM preaches how awesome working hard for what you get is, I still think it's bullshit. I would love to leave a legacy of freedom to my progeny, allowing them a stipend that gives them the freedom to be an artist, traveler/adventurer, poet, philosopher or just a permanent scholar... any number of things that are typically financially ruinous.

My little employees will continue to multiply and disburse themselves, protected from stupidly being squandered by a wall of trust law, and the freedom I have attained can be given to (hopefully) a larger and larger group of people from birth.

Don't trusts expire at some point? One idiot could screw it up after you are dead.

I like the concept, though. We need artists and philosophers.

Cookie78

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #132 on: February 20, 2015, 02:22:47 PM »
Oh absolutely suggest it. You don't even have to be that gentle. :p My mom is visiting this weekend and I plan to at least ask her more questions about being the executor of her will. At the time she mentioned it I felt very uncomfortable, I think it was more the thought of her death than the money that made me uncomfortable. She's 65 now and I hope has many years left. However, you are correct, it is a discussion that should be had.

So I won't be talking to my mom about it for awhile. My brother just killed himself last night.

Please hug your loved ones a little extra for me today. :(

Thanks for all your thoughts and well-wishes. I spent 2 days with my mom at her sisters house while she sorted out all the necessary things. I wasn't going to talk about it, but we woke up in the same bed one morning and had a cry and the subject came up anyway. We've talked it about again today and she mentioned retiring sooner than she'd originally planned, which made me so happy. I told her about my early retirement plans and she said that wasn't much of a secret and she wasn't surprised. Then we talked about money and retirement and last wishes and other important things. Told her about this thread too. Feels good.

As for everything else, lots to coordinate. Good for distractions, processing everything in between the distractions. Learned a lot about my brother in the last few days. Lots of stories and memories from everyone.

Take care of your mental health. <3

Chuck

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #133 on: February 20, 2015, 03:07:40 PM »
It is a huge shame. Instead of using that wealth to build a legacy of freedom for themselves and theirs they waste it chasing bullshit.

I'm going to echo those who have mentioned trusts. "Trust Fund" is a dirty word thanks to politics, but it is far, far preferable to simply giving your kids full control of your shit when you die.

As much as MMM preaches how awesome working hard for what you get is, I still think it's bullshit. I would love to leave a legacy of freedom to my progeny, allowing them a stipend that gives them the freedom to be an artist, traveler/adventurer, poet, philosopher or just a permanent scholar... any number of things that are typically financially ruinous.

My little employees will continue to multiply and disburse themselves, protected from stupidly being squandered by a wall of trust law, and the freedom I have attained can be given to (hopefully) a larger and larger group of people from birth.

Don't trusts expire at some point? One idiot could screw it up after you are dead.

I like the concept, though. We need artists and philosophers.
Good question. I'm sure there's some Wills and Trusts attorneys who might have insight here? Maybe?

AH013

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #134 on: February 20, 2015, 05:29:52 PM »
It is a huge shame. Instead of using that wealth to build a legacy of freedom for themselves and theirs they waste it chasing bullshit.

I'm going to echo those who have mentioned trusts. "Trust Fund" is a dirty word thanks to politics, but it is far, far preferable to simply giving your kids full control of your shit when you die.

As much as MMM preaches how awesome working hard for what you get is, I still think it's bullshit. I would love to leave a legacy of freedom to my progeny, allowing them a stipend that gives them the freedom to be an artist, traveler/adventurer, poet, philosopher or just a permanent scholar... any number of things that are typically financially ruinous.

My little employees will continue to multiply and disburse themselves, protected from stupidly being squandered by a wall of trust law, and the freedom I have attained can be given to (hopefully) a larger and larger group of people from birth.

Don't trusts expire at some point? One idiot could screw it up after you are dead.

I like the concept, though. We need artists and philosophers.
Good question. I'm sure there's some Wills and Trusts attorneys who might have insight here? Maybe?

In general, trusts can't have dead hand provisions that extend any sort of lock up of assets beyond the generations currently drawing breath.  So typically you're forced to rely on someone from generations 1-3 (maybe 4 if you live long enough) keeping the momentum of continuing to establish trusts to safeguard against idiots going.  This doesn't always happen, which is why there are stories in history of magnate families turning to ruin in a mere 5 or 6 generations.

Also for consideration, there are plenty of payday lenders, settlement lenders, and Indian reservation lenders willing to convert your stream of income into cash now.  There is very little you can legitimately do to protect against some idiot of your progeny from agreeing to pay a payday lender their trust distributions for the next 50 years in exchange for a big old pile 'o cash today to waste on cars & toys.

Drifterrider

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #135 on: February 23, 2015, 11:33:20 AM »
It is sad, and also one of the reasons why I probably will (at a much later stage in my life) setup trust funds for grandchildren and such for college/wedding/house rather than just leave it as a lump sum inheritance

Why not establish the trust now?  You don't have to fund it right away and can fund it at death (if that is your wish) or an any time before that. 

The question to ask yourself is:  If I die tonight, what will happen to what I've left behind?

The only way to have control from beyond the grave is to establish control while you are alive :)

nobody123

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #136 on: February 23, 2015, 12:06:51 PM »
I had a SIL who started putting post  it notes on the back of the "things she wanted"...and then would "joke about it" in front of all of us and as well as her still living mother.
Cringe inducing to me and most others.

My husband's grandmother has started post-it noting her stuff.  If you say you like something, your name gets stuck on the back of it...

It's creepy, though less so than what you describe- because at least she owns these things.

My MIL has started to do this as well.  The offspring with the most financial problems lives the closest, and MIL is concerned that the second she is dead said offspring will loot her house and family strife will ensue.  MIL has put one valuable item for each offspring in her will, but doesn't want to be bothered with keeping it updated with the entirety of her household contents.  So, "Put your name on it!" is sort of a running family joke now whenever we get together and someone 'oohs or ahhhs' at a gift that MIL has just opened up.

Historically, their family has done estate sales and divided the proceeds equally.  After family has a pick of one or two sentimental items, everything else is sold.  Nobody is crass enough to say a TV or something like that is sentimental.  If they want it, they bid on it during the auction and the proceeds are added to the pile of money being divided up.

Capsu78

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Re: The tradgey of inheritance
« Reply #137 on: February 23, 2015, 12:22:09 PM »
I just got an email this morning that I thought did a nice job in describing what estate planning looks like. 

http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/what-is-estate-planning-and-do-i-need-to-worry-about-it/


If you think about your parents, or even "your kids parents" would you prefer to make these decisions while you are alive or have the heirs have to sort this stuff out without your advice?
I view our organizational efforts now as a gift to my kids later.