Author Topic: The sad story of Phil and Bill  (Read 13842 times)

Ron Scott

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The sad story of Phil and Bill
« on: December 08, 2021, 10:54:28 AM »
A buddy told me this one this morning. I’m sure you’ve heard a version of it before.


Phil and Bill, twin brothers, have longed for early retirement for many years and put a plan in place based on their Bible: the Trinity study. They will invest in identical assets, save 25 times their desired annual spend, retire, spend 4% of their nest in year one, and increase that amount by inflation every year until they die. What could go wrong?

Lo and behold they hit their 25X number ($1 million) on their 40th birthday. Bill quits his job and holds a retirement party for himself. But Phil has a quick change of heart: he’s going to work 1 more year and use that additional cash to take the family on a bucket list luxury vacation to Hawaii.

Phil sets aside $18 grand from that additional year’s labor and off they GO!

Unfortunately, during his vacation the country goes into a deep recession and his nest egg drops by 15%. So while Bill happily increases his annual paycheck 3% inflationary over last year, Phil no longer has 25 times his desired spend and is forced to continue working. Then—even worse, he loses his job, becomes a Walmart greeter, and now has little prospect to regain his million and retire. Life sucks…







« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 10:56:18 AM by Ron Scott »

uniwelder

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2021, 11:06:38 AM »
I think there’s something wrong with your calculations. Bill also lost 15% and withdrew 4% that year. Phil also has one extra year compounding without a withdrawal. Phil is ahead financially, not Bill
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 11:08:15 AM by uniwelder »

fell-like-rain

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2021, 11:11:31 AM »
The actual moral of this story is that blindly following the "save 25x and then retire forever" mantra is stupid. Phil could pick up enough hours at Walmart to make $6k/year and fund the rest of his lifestyle from investments (BaristaFI), or work at Walmart to cover expenses while waiting for his portfolio to climb to $1mil (CoastFI), or just go fart around for a few years working on hobbies and someday get a different job if he needs money (DoWhateverTheFuckYouWantFI).

boarder42

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2021, 11:13:54 AM »
this story is fundamentally wrong no other way to say it.  Yes working longer could have you end up below your number due to market returns.  but both brothers have less money now and the brother who kept working does not have to go back to work if it was safe at 1MM a year ago its safe after a market drop today to spend his 40k plus he has 40% of his spending that he saved in income and didnt take out 40k the first year. 

also most here dont treat the trinity study as a bible those are guidelines

« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 11:23:02 AM by boarder42 »

boarder42

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2021, 11:21:20 AM »
to add to that any smart person around these parts travel hacks that trip to hawaii. 

Going to hawaii for free in feb/march for 3 weeks

flights - SW points
Staying 5nights at the grand wailea on hilton points
staying 2 nights at the marriott residence is as filler on bonvoy points
stayin 7 Nights at the puunoa estates on hyatt points
Staying 5 nights at the hyatt residence club on hyatt points
rental car covered by various travel rewards cards

food costs are similar to home with the slight escalation for being in hawaii. gas is similar
sure we'll spend some money on some excursions but its pretty negligible to the costs above

all in for 3 weeks with 2 kids will maybe be a grand.

source https://www.travelmiles101.com/

« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 12:17:08 PM by boarder42 »

Askel

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2021, 11:21:46 AM »
If I was Phil, I would insist on being called Phillip so my name didn't rhyme with that of my asshole brother.   




wageslave23

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2021, 11:35:03 AM »
Phil becomes a walmart greeter because he obviously doesn't know how to read. Otherwise he would know that the trinity study isn't based on first year returns...

FIRE 20/20

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2021, 12:01:55 PM »
Phil and Bill apparently don't understand probabilities and as a result both end up making binary decisions in a situation that calls for probabilistic rather than either-or thinking. 

jsap819

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2021, 12:03:24 PM »
If I was Phil, I would insist on being called Phillip so my name didn't rhyme with that of my asshole brother.

I needed a good laugh today. Thank you for that.

I agree with everyone else here. Financially, Phil would be in a much better position than Bill as Phil didn't have to withdraw anything to begin with and was able to add close to half a year's worth of expenses all while going on a luxurious vacation. Bill is down a year's worth of spending, plus the 15% drop, and now will have to withdraw an inflation adjusted spending for next year without a job. Phil on the other hand can continue working (if he hasn't quit yet) and wait for the market to recover or do whatever the fuck he wants.

The difference in their portfolio is about $50k in favor of Phil and that's not even considering the second inflation adjusted withdrawal Bill will have to make for the following year while Phil can continue working should he choose so he doesn't have to touch his investments.

simonsez

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2021, 01:24:29 PM »
to add to that any smart person around these parts travel hacks that trip to hawaii. 

Going to hawaii for free in feb/march for 3 weeks

flights - SW points
Staying 5nights at the grand wailea on hilton points
staying 2 nights at the marriott residence is as filler on bonvoy points
stayin 7 Nights at the puunoa estates on hyatt points
Staying 5 nights at the hyatt residence club on hyatt points
rental car covered by various travel rewards cards

food costs are similar to home with the slight escalation for being in hawaii. gas is similar
sure we'll spend some money on some excursions but its pretty negligible to the costs above

all in for 3 weeks with 2 kids will maybe be a grand.

source https://www.travelmiles101.com/
Stupid person here - never mind the hotels and their points that are attainable somehow for free but how do you get 146,400 points from Southwest for free?  I can't find anything from that link but admittedly am not used to navigating that site.  I see you can get 40,000 or 80,000 points for signing up for a Southwest CC (which are not free) so I assume there has to be something else going on.

As for the OP, there is a lot there that I just don't follow.  If the brothers are both treating the Trinity Study as gospel, why is one "forced back to work" but the other isn't?  Why is SORR not discussed at all?  A lot of weird decisions are being made after a blip in the first year.  I'm not sure which "Bible version" of the Trinity Study they were reading.  Maybe that's the sad part of the story - that Phil and Bill were a bit clueless to begin with about personal finance in retirement and interpreted some guidelines as strict inflexible rules?

boarder42

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2021, 01:27:58 PM »
to add to that any smart person around these parts travel hacks that trip to hawaii. 

Going to hawaii for free in feb/march for 3 weeks

flights - SW points
Staying 5nights at the grand wailea on hilton points
staying 2 nights at the marriott residence is as filler on bonvoy points
stayin 7 Nights at the puunoa estates on hyatt points
Staying 5 nights at the hyatt residence club on hyatt points
rental car covered by various travel rewards cards

food costs are similar to home with the slight escalation for being in hawaii. gas is similar
sure we'll spend some money on some excursions but its pretty negligible to the costs above

all in for 3 weeks with 2 kids will maybe be a grand.

source https://www.travelmiles101.com/
Stupid person here - never mind the hotels and their points that are attainable somehow for free but how do you get 146,400 points from Southwest for free?  I can't find anything from that link but admittedly am not used to navigating that site.  I see you can get 40,000 or 80,000 points for signing up for a Southwest CC (which are not free) so I assume there has to be something else going on.

As for the OP, there is a lot there that I just don't follow.  If the brothers are both treating the Trinity Study as gospel, why is one "forced back to work" but the other isn't?  Why is SORR not discussed at all?  A lot of weird decisions are being made after a blip in the first year.  I'm not sure which "Bible version" of the Trinity Study they were reading.  Maybe that's the sad part of the story - that Phil and Bill were a bit clueless to begin with about personal finance in retirement and interpreted some guidelines as strict inflexible rules?

that site teaches you how to travel hack.  the cost of a southwest card's annual fee are offset by the perks the card gives you like free points at renewal but i sign up for these cards and cancel them.  this is a long history of continuous accural of points then spending them in this manner but i have so many now that i typically can replace our points almost as fast as we spend them by hacking back thru the system.  bonuses change frequently SW bonus was as high as 100k a week ago for the cheapest card get one refer your wife and you have "free" flights to maui if you want to argue they cost the 40 dollar annual fee cool but its pretty insignificant compared to the actual return on the flights.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 01:30:07 PM by boarder42 »

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2021, 01:38:44 PM »
This parable, or whatever the hell it is, doesn’t undercut anything I understanding about how the 4% rule works. It assumes that some years will have poor returns but others will be off the charts. They can still pull $40k each year whether it loses 15% or not. Both brothers are covered and no one has to work at Walmart unless they have to. You’ve made it clear that you don’t like the 4% concept OP, I also don’t think you understand it. You’re only here to troll, what a shit waste of your energy to try and constantly undermine something you don’t agree with. There are plenty of forums and communities aligned with your thinking where you’d clearly get more stimulation and insight.

boarder42

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2021, 01:58:57 PM »
This parable, or whatever the hell it is, doesn’t undercut anything I understanding about how the 4% rule works. It assumes that some years will have poor returns but others will be off the charts. They can still pull $40k each year whether it loses 15% or not. Both brothers are covered and no one has to work at Walmart unless they have to. You’ve made it clear that you don’t like the 4% concept OP, I also don’t think you understand it. You’re only here to troll, what a shit waste of your energy to try and constantly undermine something you don’t agree with. There are plenty of forums and communities aligned with your thinking where you’d clearly get more stimulation and insight.

he's like 70 and retired at 65 boggleheads seems a better place.

maisymouser

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2021, 02:19:59 PM »
wtf is the point of this post.

ugh, MMM forum top was in. i need a better place to look for actually helpful and interesting financial info lol.

boarder42

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2021, 02:21:05 PM »
wtf is the point of this post.

ugh, MMM forum top was in. i need a better place to look for actually helpful and interesting financial info lol.

hey we're also going to be starting an active investing sub forum it looks like ... so much good information in these parts.

mistymoney

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2021, 02:52:54 PM »
I thought the work a year longer brother was going to die.

This makes no sense. 18k extra saved - and spent - and - so what's the difference? besides that workslongbro should have an additional 40k or whatever because he didn't live off stash that year.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2021, 03:06:58 PM »
I thought the work a year longer brother was going to die.
This makes no sense. 18k extra saved - and spent - and - so what's the difference? besides that workslongbro should have an additional 40k or whatever because he didn't live off stash that year.

The difference is that brother who keeps working hasn't reached his magical number because of a significant drop in the market. Basically, it is highlighting the fact that the 4% rule doesn't do a good job of accounting for the differences in retiring at the top of a boom vs the bottom of the bottom of a recession.

moof

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2021, 03:14:02 PM »
Retire at a market peak and a 4% WR might only barely make it (or be one of the failed scenarios).

Retire at a market trough and you might be able to safely use 6-8% WR.

Trouble is that we all suck at predicting the future, so we roll with 4% as a catchall answer to begin the discussion with.  If only we could all be like Thorstache and know when The Top Is In.

In reality Bill is clearly the more fiscally sane person who had a plan and stuck with it, and will readily adjust his spending as needed to weather the downturn.  Phil is a spendthrift and no stache is big enough to outgrow rampant miss-spending like a $18k vacation when you have planned spending of only $40k for an entire year.

GuitarStv

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2021, 03:21:40 PM »
This is why you don't retire with 100% equities.  During the deep recession you draw down on your bonds, saving your stocks . . . which allows them to rebound when things turn around and saves your retirement.

boarder42

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2021, 03:28:14 PM »
This is why you don't retire with 100% equities.  During the deep recession you draw down on your bonds, saving your stocks . . . which allows them to rebound when things turn around and saves your retirement.

this is rocket surgery.  4% bible FTW all STONKS pretty sure its what the bible says. 

we should make this the next top is in thread.

elaine amj

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2021, 03:29:59 PM »

Stupid person here - never mind the hotels and their points that are attainable somehow for free but how do you get 146,400 points from Southwest for free?  I can't find anything from that link but admittedly am not used to navigating that site.  I see you can get 40,000 or 80,000 points for signing up for a Southwest CC (which are not free) so I assume there has to be something else going on.

Strategic credit card applications. What we did in the past was stack 2 applications- so a SW personal card and a SW business card. You have to watch out for timing to make sure you warn the correct number of points in the correct calendar year. Usually 2 CCs plus a bit of normal monthly spending gets us enough points for a free Companion Pass (meaning one person flies for free - whether the point holder flies on cash or on points).

There are other lucrative credit cards too if you want to dip your toe into the wacky world of travel hacking. My advice is to choose one program when you start and learn it well. And pay attention as it easy to miss small details. It’s a great way to get “free” stuff though!


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dandarc

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2021, 04:39:57 PM »

Stupid person here - never mind the hotels and their points that are attainable somehow for free but how do you get 146,400 points from Southwest for free?  I can't find anything from that link but admittedly am not used to navigating that site.  I see you can get 40,000 or 80,000 points for signing up for a Southwest CC (which are not free) so I assume there has to be something else going on.

Strategic credit card applications. What we did in the past was stack 2 applications- so a SW personal card and a SW business card. You have to watch out for timing to make sure you warn the correct number of points in the correct calendar year. Usually 2 CCs plus a bit of normal monthly spending gets us enough points for a free Companion Pass (meaning one person flies for free - whether the point holder flies on cash or on points).

There are other lucrative credit cards too if you want to dip your toe into the wacky world of travel hacking. My advice is to choose one program when you start and learn it well. And pay attention as it easy to miss small details. It’s a great way to get “free” stuff though!


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I think it expired yesterday, but personal cards were recently offering 100K signup bonuses - something like 50K for the usual $3,000 spend within 90 days, and another 50K if you spent $12K in the first 6 months or something like that. Had I done it, I'd probably have just done 1 card and MS a fair portion of the required amount via taxes (it can be done more efficiently, but I'm lazy, and $200-300 in fees to get $2K-$3K worth of points). Can be done for free, but super easy to do it for cheap.

But we have so many SW points saved up (last re-upped the CP in early 2020 - wonderful timing . . .) we can afford to pay double points for any trips we take together in the next year anyway - gonna be CP free for the first time since 2015 or so.

Metalcat

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2021, 05:59:02 PM »
Oh look, yet another thread about imaginary people retiring at 25X (what is X? X is arbitrary) with absolutely no actual plan for managing their retirement.

Funny how in the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of threads and posts I've read here over the years, I have NEVER EVER EVER seen anyone retire with exactly 25X of an inflexible budget, with no additional sources of income, and no lucrative work options, who made no plan whatsoever to account for SORR, who would be fucked by a sudden downturn in the market within the first years of their retirement.

I'm pretty sure that when I was high once on pain killers after a surgery that I saw a literal forest fairy behind my mom's house, but I have NEVER EVER EVER seen the above described mythical creature of a dude like Phil ever grace our forum in the many years I've been here.

clarkfan1979

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2021, 06:44:28 PM »
to add to that any smart person around these parts travel hacks that trip to hawaii. 

Going to hawaii for free in feb/march for 3 weeks

flights - SW points
Staying 5nights at the grand wailea on hilton points
staying 2 nights at the marriott residence is as filler on bonvoy points
stayin 7 Nights at the puunoa estates on hyatt points
Staying 5 nights at the hyatt residence club on hyatt points
rental car covered by various travel rewards cards

food costs are similar to home with the slight escalation for being in hawaii. gas is similar
sure we'll spend some money on some excursions but its pretty negligible to the costs above

all in for 3 weeks with 2 kids will maybe be a grand.

source https://www.travelmiles101.com/

Nice hack with points for the Hawaii trip. I'm going to Kauai next week for 5 days. I used my Southwest Points. The dollar value of the flight was $375 round trip from Denver. I'm staying with friends and using my minivan parked in the backyard of my rental house.

I spent $11.20 on the flight for the TSA fee. I'm going to spend around $20 in gas, $22.50 for airport parking and $4 for the bus. If I bring a big bag of trail mix from Sams Club and don't buy any food on Kauai, I can keep my costs under $60 :)

Kris

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2021, 06:50:53 PM »
The sad story is how bad the math is.

Askel

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2021, 07:10:42 PM »
I'm pretty sure that when I was high once on pain killers after a surgery that I saw a literal forest fairy behind my mom's house, but I have NEVER EVER EVER seen the above described mythical creature of a dude like Phil ever grace our forum in the many years I've been here.

Phillip looked on, slightly perturbed and with what he imagined was a pretty darn good 1000 yard stare.  Calling him Phil reminded him of his goddamn twin brother, Bill. Everybody thought the sun shone out of his ass, but Phillip was sick of him.  He wasn't going to sit there and be referred to by some nickname that rhymed with that of his asshole twin brother.   

He stewed for moment before mustering his sternest voice and declared, "My name is Phillip, not Phil."   


the_fixer

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2021, 09:38:02 PM »
While the feeling ebbs and flows I basically love my work. I'm 60. I manage a $400m business with more than 800 employees and offices in several countries. I travel a good bit and lately my wife has agreed to join me in the fun places. I admit, I'm exhausted most of the time but I make room for family fun and biking (just did 40 miles, half in the rain).

I could easily have retired 15 years ago without having to rethink my lifestyle but my attitude is different. I'm contributing to something larger than me. I am competent, my competence is recognized and appreciated by my staff and CEO, and I can see the positive results of my efforts. 

I plan to retire in 2 years. I could work forever but I know it's only one life and I want change.

My problem is I don't have a plan I like. I can't imagine not throwing myself in unstructured problems on a daily basis. I can't imagine not being exhausted and the prospect of that feels unpleasant. I don't have the temperament to volunteer at the senior center, and sitting on boards or playing golf in Florida all day are non-starters.

What do you retired folks do?


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gooki

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2021, 02:09:28 AM »
Quote
The actual moral of this story is that blindly following the "save 25x and then retire forever" mantra is stupid.

No no no, you got it backwards. Following the 4% rule is genius.

Mr. Green

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2021, 06:32:14 AM »
And then Phil decided to retire anyway because 1 in 5 40-year-old men die before the age of 65 and fuck that! He realized the flexibility and tenacity that allowed him to accomplish his goal in the first place meant he was capable of earning more money later if he really needed it. One day Bill called Phil up to gloat about his retirement and mockingly lament Phil's inability to do so because he no longer had 25x his annual expenses.

Phil: "Bill, I went ahead and retired. Feels pretty good!"
Bill: "You can't do that, Phil! It says right here in the FIRE rule book that you have to have 25x annual expenses."
Phil: "Well I went and did it anyway because fuck you, Bill! And the name is Phillip!"

Dicey

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2021, 06:48:54 AM »
While the feeling ebbs and flows I basically love my work. I'm 60. I manage a $400m business with more than 800 employees and offices in several countries. I travel a good bit and lately my wife has agreed to join me in the fun places. I admit, I'm exhausted most of the time but I make room for family fun and biking (just did 40 miles, half in the rain).

I could easily have retired 15 years ago without having to rethink my lifestyle but my attitude is different. I'm contributing to something larger than me. I am competent, my competence is recognized and appreciated by my staff and CEO, and I can see the positive results of my efforts. 

I plan to retire in 2 years. I could work forever but I know it's only one life and I want change.

My problem is I don't have a plan I like. I can't imagine not throwing myself in unstructured problems on a daily basis. I can't imagine not being exhausted and the prospect of that feels unpleasant. I don't have the temperament to volunteer at the senior center, and sitting on boards or playing golf in Florida all day are non-starters.

What do you retired folks do?
Hmmm, maybe the real sad story here isn't Phillip or Bill, but Ron Scott.

Metalcat

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2021, 07:32:02 AM »
^ slow clap

boarder42

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2021, 07:33:43 AM »
^ slow clap

this is why we need a like button but i feel like it should be a mustache or something. 

Metalcat

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2021, 07:37:17 AM »
^ slow clap

this is why we need a like button but i feel like it should be a mustache or something.

Like buttons are lazy. It's way more fun to see the responses people come up with instead.

ender

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2021, 07:39:20 AM »
I don't understand why you seem to have taken a personal mission to troll the MMM forum about early retirement being terribly risky when it's not something you've even remotely considered.

Dicey

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2021, 08:03:24 AM »
I don't understand why you seem to have taken a personal mission to troll the MMM forum about early retirement being terribly risky when it's not something you've even remotely considered.
Or, you know, experienced.

GuitarStv

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2021, 08:08:05 AM »
It's good to see that @Ron Scott  doesn't post during regular working hours.  I mean, the guy loves his job managing his 400 million dollar business.  What would he be doing wasting his time on the internet avoiding his awesome work?

boarder42

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2021, 08:17:55 AM »
I don't understand why you seem to have taken a personal mission to troll the MMM forum about early retirement being terribly risky when it's not something you've even remotely considered.

same reason you can find me on every BTC crypto forum out there its too much fun /s

boarder42

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2021, 08:45:13 AM »
^ slow clap

this is why we need a like button but i feel like it should be a mustache or something.

Like buttons are lazy. It's way more fun to see the responses people come up with instead.

they are lazy and probably a negative to human psychology

GuitarStv

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2021, 09:39:13 AM »
^ slow clap

this is why we need a like button but i feel like it should be a mustache or something.

Like buttons are lazy. It's way more fun to see the responses people come up with instead.

they are lazy and probably a negative to human psychology

*like*

:P

EvenSteven

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2021, 11:54:56 AM »
I'm pretty sure that when I was high once on pain killers after a surgery that I saw a literal forest fairy behind my mom's house, but I have NEVER EVER EVER seen the above described mythical creature of a dude like Phil ever grace our forum in the many years I've been here.

Phillip looked on, slightly perturbed and with what he imagined was a pretty darn good 1000 yard stare.  Calling him Phil reminded him of his goddamn twin brother, Bill. Everybody thought the sun shone out of his ass, but Phillip was sick of him.  He wasn't going to sit there and be referred to by some nickname that rhymed with that of his asshole twin brother.   

He stewed for moment before mustering his sternest voice and declared, "My name is Phillip, not Phil."

Long before that fateful trip to Hawaii, Phillip had thought more fondly of his brother. Bill could sometimes be thoughtless, but would always be earnest in trying to do the right thing. Until Hawaii.

"Hey Phil, I travel hacked this great deal to Hawaii, I just have to sit for a 2-hour time share presentation. What a bunch of suckers!," Bill announced excitedly to his brother.

With a slow and measured breath, Philip responded "Be careful, Bill. You know you are sometimes easily influenced, especially after your third Mai Tai."

"Nah, I'm not even going to bring a credit card or ID to the presentation, they won't get me. You worry too much, Phil."

"Ok good, you don't want to get mixed up in any of those time share scams. Not again."

As Bill left in his uber, en route to the sunny beaches of Maui, a powerful hunger overcame Philip. A taco and a beer from the taco stand across the street would be less expensive than a trip to Hawaii, but sounded like heaven to Philip. The cashier asked for Philip's ID for the local session-IPA he ordered. Philip reached into his wallet, into nothingness. His ID and credit cards were gone. Bill.

GuitarStv

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2021, 12:43:25 PM »
And then Phil decided to retire anyway because 1 in 5 40-year-old men die before the age of 65.
No you have that backwards. Men (people) die AFTER retiring at any age. There have been numerous numerous articles and scientific studies that prove this. First there's infirmities/disability, then cognitive decline, then a fast death. Apparently retirement is the leading cause of all 3. Those who choose to quit their jobs in their 30s and 40s will become addled, disabled, unhealthy, unfit soon afterwards and die shortly. They should have just continued to work forever because FIRE will kill you!! Suzie Ormand agrees.

ETA: This is why the people here who retire young are never heard from again. Too poor now as well as too demented, too disabled  or too dead to post any longer. Its not like they are out having fun or anything like that. I mean it IS hard to post when you must be living in a van down by the river eating government cheese  because you retired too young and lost everything.

Very true.  If you read MMMs blog closely, you can see that he died shortly after retiring.

JJ-

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2021, 02:20:49 PM »
Maybe Ron Scott is the new thorstach

ChpBstrd

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2021, 03:29:10 PM »
I think most of the responders are missing the point of the post, and maybe we need a new one. In any rule-based, one-time-decision system tied to something fluctuating like market returns, the decision is really being made by the fluctuations, not the person who adopted the rule. Thus the risk is chronological, and based on how many fluctuations can possibly occur.

EarlyRetirementNow.com had a post that I can't find ATM about how a hypothetical saver is much more likely to retire during a raging bull market, such as 1999, the mid-1960s, or the roaring 20's than during the Great Depression, the 1970s, 2001, or 2009. The reason is simple; we're more likely to have a fat portfolio during bull markets. Bull markets are at some point followed by bear markets or big corrections, so the cycle is for lots of people to retire when their accounts are flush and then suddenly face a SORR event. Odds are, if we are close to retirement, it is because we are in a mature bull market (which ends within a couple/few years).

There is a case to be made that we should save as fast as possible and retire as soon as possible so that the window of time during which we are vulnerable to a SORR event is made smaller, and therefore our exposure is lower. I.e. a person who takes 20 years to save for retirement is more likely to experience a 40%+ correction/bear market at some time during their 20 year journey than a person who gets it done in 7 years. If in that example, the bear market occurs in year 15, the slow saver's retirement is set back potentially for many years, while the fast saver has already outrun the risk by having 8 years of portfolio growth prior to the event - perhaps they're set back to where they started when they retired. Thus the fast saver is less at risk of a correction in year 15 than the slow saver. Extrapolate this to the risk of corrections in years 12, 13, 14, 16, 17... and this adds up to a lot of cumulative risk. Plus, the fast saver who adds 15% to his account value each year through savings only loses a year in the event of a 15% correction. The slow saver with a 5% savings rate loses three!

There are 2 ways to read the story of Bill and Phil:

1) Bill loses because he retired too soon: Bill suddenly regrets quitting his job because he must now sell stock at cheap prices. Phil is better off because he got a Hawaiian vacation out of the deal AND paid his own living expenses from his salary for an extra year instead of withdrawing from his portfolio. But both end up at WalMart anyway. Had Bill known the correction was coming, he never would have retired.

2) Phil loses because he retired too late: Phil sacrificed his best remaining year of life for consumption and STILL didn't end up retired. Yes, both Bill and Phil are now WalMart greeters, and yes Phil has more money, but the amount of extra money Phil had - which he plowed into the markets right before they dropped - does not compensate him for the lost year. Phil figures he wasted a year working to end up right where his brother ended up. Also it rained on his entire vacation.

That said, I think it's simplistic to just trash the 4% rule without a better plan. One could construct the exact same scenario about a 3.25% or 3.5% "rule". And if the suggestion is we don't set a rule and just "wing it" - well that's a proven way to end up a 70 y/o Wally World greeter. If the plan is to live off of meme stocks until one hits the jackpot, let's go ahead and drag those risks out for public examination vs. the chronological risks of WR-base rules.

boarder42

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2021, 03:55:58 PM »
I think most of the responders are missing the point of the post, and maybe we need a new one. In any rule-based, one-time-decision system tied to something fluctuating like market returns, the decision is really being made by the fluctuations, not the person who adopted the rule. Thus the risk is chronological, and based on how many fluctuations can possibly occur.

EarlyRetirementNow.com had a post that I can't find ATM about how a hypothetical saver is much more likely to retire during a raging bull market, such as 1999, the mid-1960s, or the roaring 20's than during the Great Depression, the 1970s, 2001, or 2009. The reason is simple; we're more likely to have a fat portfolio during bull markets. Bull markets are at some point followed by bear markets or big corrections, so the cycle is for lots of people to retire when their accounts are flush and then suddenly face a SORR event. Odds are, if we are close to retirement, it is because we are in a mature bull market (which ends within a couple/few years).

There is a case to be made that we should save as fast as possible and retire as soon as possible so that the window of time during which we are vulnerable to a SORR event is made smaller, and therefore our exposure is lower. I.e. a person who takes 20 years to save for retirement is more likely to experience a 40%+ correction/bear market at some time during their 20 year journey than a person who gets it done in 7 years. If in that example, the bear market occurs in year 15, the slow saver's retirement is set back potentially for many years, while the fast saver has already outrun the risk by having 8 years of portfolio growth prior to the event - perhaps they're set back to where they started when they retired. Thus the fast saver is less at risk of a correction in year 15 than the slow saver. Extrapolate this to the risk of corrections in years 12, 13, 14, 16, 17... and this adds up to a lot of cumulative risk. Plus, the fast saver who adds 15% to his account value each year through savings only loses a year in the event of a 15% correction. The slow saver with a 5% savings rate loses three!

There are 2 ways to read the story of Bill and Phil:

1) Bill loses because he retired too soon: Bill suddenly regrets quitting his job because he must now sell stock at cheap prices. Phil is better off because he got a Hawaiian vacation out of the deal AND paid his own living expenses from his salary for an extra year instead of withdrawing from his portfolio. But both end up at WalMart anyway. Had Bill known the correction was coming, he never would have retired.

2) Phil loses because he retired too late: Phil sacrificed his best remaining year of life for consumption and STILL didn't end up retired. Yes, both Bill and Phil are now WalMart greeters, and yes Phil has more money, but the amount of extra money Phil had - which he plowed into the markets right before they dropped - does not compensate him for the lost year. Phil figures he wasted a year working to end up right where his brother ended up. Also it rained on his entire vacation.

That said, I think it's simplistic to just trash the 4% rule without a better plan. One could construct the exact same scenario about a 3.25% or 3.5% "rule". And if the suggestion is we don't set a rule and just "wing it" - well that's a proven way to end up a 70 y/o Wally World greeter. If the plan is to live off of meme stocks until one hits the jackpot, let's go ahead and drag those risks out for public examination vs. the chronological risks of WR-base rules.

There's already a thread for this called stop worrying about the 4% rule and the scenario above is mentioned often in various threads

partgypsy

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2021, 08:38:54 PM »
All I know is this thread is making me want to go to Hawaii. And also someone other than Ron does the math for the company.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 08:43:29 PM by partgypsy »

arebelspy

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2021, 12:45:54 AM »
I dead.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

PDXTabs

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2021, 01:15:30 AM »
And then Phil decided to retire anyway because 1 in 5 40-year-old men die before the age of 65.
No you have that backwards. Men (people) die AFTER retiring at any age. There have been numerous numerous articles and scientific studies that prove this. First there's infirmities/disability, then cognitive decline, then a fast death. Apparently retirement is the leading cause of all 3. Those who choose to quit their jobs in their 30s and 40s will become addled, disabled, unhealthy, unfit soon afterwards and die shortly. They should have just continued to work forever because FIRE will kill you!! Suzie Ormand agrees.

ETA: This is why the people here who retire young are never heard from again. Too poor now as well as too demented, too disabled  or too dead to post any longer. Its not like they are out having fun or anything like that. I mean it IS hard to post when you must be living in a van down by the river eating government cheese  because you retired too young and lost everything.

Hey, don't knock living in a van down by the river eating government cheese, that's my Lean FIRE plan.

mistymoney

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2021, 06:24:58 AM »
There is a case to be made that we should save as fast as possible and retire as soon as possible so that the window of time during which we are vulnerable to a SORR event is made smaller, and therefore our exposure is lower. I.e. a person who takes 20 years to save for retirement is more likely to experience a 40%+ correction/bear market at some time during their 20 year journey than a person who gets it done in 7 years. If in that example, the bear market occurs in year 15, the slow saver's retirement is set back potentially for many years, while the fast saver has already outrun the risk by having 8 years of portfolio growth prior to the event - perhaps they're set back to where they started when they retired. Thus the fast saver is less at risk of a correction in year 15 than the slow saver. Extrapolate this to the risk of corrections in years 12, 13, 14, 16, 17... and this adds up to a lot of cumulative risk. Plus, the fast saver who adds 15% to his account value each year through savings only loses a year in the event of a 15% correction. The slow saver with a 5% savings rate loses three!



this also makes no sense to me. The big correction coud come at year 7 or 8, hitting the fast saver harder than the slow one.

Or year 9. or year 10.


friedmmj

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2021, 07:52:07 AM »
I love a good hypothetical as much as anyone, but big fail by OP on this one.  Lacks key information.  I'm wondering if he just made this up himself or copied it from somewhere.

Metalcat

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Re: The sad story of Phil and Bill
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2021, 10:31:32 AM »
I love a good hypothetical as much as anyone, but big fail by OP on this one.  Lacks key information.  I'm wondering if he just made this up himself or copied it from somewhere.

Who knows, OP is a drive-by poster, he doesn't seem to have much interest in actually engaging once he tosses out a post shitting on frugality and the concept of FIRE.

He seems to think he's like, the only person here who actually liked their high job and isn't in a rush to retire. As if that's something unique and special.

He seems to have totally missed that that's the majority of the demographic here, so he's not preaching anything even remotely revolutionary to any of us, even when he does make a cogent point.

I would say that we have far more self satisfied high earners who don't plan to retire young here than we do compared to low spending folks who actually have or plan to retire decades early.

So it's kind of like someone walking into a Unitarian Church and assuming everyone there is an ultra conservative Christian.

I see this so often, posters come here and rail against a level of frugality and reckless early retirement that just *isn't* even the culture here, or even close to the culture here.

Like, thanks for the lecture to not do what I'm already not doing. Sooooo helpful.

People really need to learn before they lecture.