Author Topic: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'  (Read 59394 times)

NICE!

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #100 on: May 01, 2015, 11:39:33 AM »
NICE, you are attempting to impose your values on someone from another culture.  That is often what makes it difficult for people to accept 'different' and can lead to a lot of frustration and eventually an, 'I can't take this any more' result.

Did you read the story I gave about the mailman?  He takes vacation in August, therefore there is no mail delivery in August.  It's logical.  That you might not agree it is how to run a postal service is irrelevant.  By the same token, it is equally as logical to say that the time to deal with a generator is when you need one.  Why would you deal with it when you don't need one?  Your belief that it is better to be prepared is based on YOUR way of thinking.  But it isn't your generator.

No one is telling you how to deal with your generator NICE and you should not be telling anyone how to deal with their generator.  If it really bothers you then stay at home where your generator is always ready to go and do not visit the home of someone else who waits till the power fails to go and check on the generator.  See how it relates to living in another country overall?

No, I'm not. And don't come at me with that cultural relativism line and with an inaccurate picture of the situation. Normative judgements do have a place in life.

We're talking about the generator for my building. I couldn't care less about how someone else runs their household, I'm talking about where I'm located and where the person is hired to provide a service.

So, no. I'm not imposing anything and I'm not wrong. The guy is failing at his job and it fits within the context of his culture, which is reactive, rather than proactive. This is a weakness of the culture. There are strengths to this culture as well - family, charity, and more.

I have ample criticisms for my own culture (American) and I'm always more than happy to discuss those. Cultures have strengths and weaknesses. Individualism has strengths and weaknesses. Hierarchical societies have strengths and weaknesses. Etc.

Finally, don't instruct me on how to live in other places. I've spent a large portion of my life overseas in various environments from Europe to Asia to Africa. I know my way around.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 11:44:05 AM by NICE! »

Le Poisson

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #101 on: May 01, 2015, 11:50:24 AM »
Old Pro - I love this thread - thanks for introducing it.

One of the things I have always thought would be cool is to drop out and sail between ports. I know you addressed this earlier in the thread, but you seemed really negative about the idea. I wonder if you have read any (many?) of Hal Roth's books? For instance in 2 against Cape Horn, he and his wife sail Whisper soth in the Pacific to the Beagle Channel, then around Cape Horn and back home.

What is interesting in his writing is that he is very honest about the places they make landfall and the people they meet. What is deceptive is the time passage. For instance - sailing south to the Beagle channel is only 1 chapter in the book, but is a very long passage of time. What this means is twofold - one - it is the safest portion of their journey since they are at sea with no navigation dangers, and two, it is the cheapest portion of their journey since they have noplace to spend money. To be at sea is perhapse the cheapest way to retire - but it is like a mortgage - the whole time you are out of port, you are stressing the systems and fittings on your boat - an expense you have to make up either when a fitting fails, or when you do make landfall. The wonderful thing about Hal's books is how he shows resourceful ways to overcome adversity and repair his boat in these forlorn places.

Interesting 2 Against Cape Horn is that he runs aground and severely damages the boat. He is sailing with his wife and a couple of Hollywood types. When the boat is damaged, Hal uses the sails and rigging to set up a camp until rescue can arrive. He and his wife provision the camp, and empty the boat. Eventually the Chilean Navy comes along and pulls the boat off, then carries it to a salvage yard where Hal rebuilds the hull with the help of the navy. He manages expectations and what labour is available to him, learns the local customs, and adapts to the community. His Hollywood friend abandons them almost immediately though, saying he could never survive in such a place.

It is similar to your comments about living in a far off place, and I wonder if I was trapped in a situation where I had to be resourceful without the language or advantage of understanding the culture, how I would fare.

If you haven't heard of Hal (his market is mostly sailors - I know you have your 6-pack -  and his books are from the 1980's or so) I'd suggest you look him up at the library. You may enjoy his stories.

I like "Two Against Cape Horn" and "Always a Distant Anchorage a lot." They keep me saying "someday..."

http://www.amazon.com/Hal-Roth/e/B000APOYU2

Bob W

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #102 on: May 01, 2015, 12:59:16 PM »
Loving this thread

2527

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #103 on: May 01, 2015, 01:26:49 PM »
When you first immerse yourself in a different culture, it can be exhilarating.  You free yourself from your own society's conventions, but you are not yet bound by the other society's conventions.  You are learning new things, expanding your horizons and becoming proficient in another culture and another language.  Maybe it is a culture where your money goes farther, or your status as an American makes you instantly more desired or respected, and that feels really good.  But, if you stick around long enough, you begin to become bound by the other culture, and it's unspoken and unwritten norms are a surprise and don't make sense.  And you have to function in the new society, and you aren't very good at, you speak the language, but not well, and you will never be fully integrated, and instead of feeling exhilarated, you start to feel constrained.  That's my experience.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 01:28:44 PM by 2527 »

Le Poisson

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #104 on: May 01, 2015, 01:53:25 PM »
You might enjoy this blog from The Sailing Channel Prospecter. It's an older step-relative of mine who sailed around the world solo (and is a partially paralyzed from the knees down from a hang gliding accident) as well as had a pretty adventurous life. He died a few years ago (on his sailboat in Martinique) but had a pretty amazing life. Make sure and look at the older posts as they are the more interesting ones.

http://wanderlust3.thesailingchannel.tv/

The ex-hub and I had bought and lived on our small sailboat for awhile (both were active duty Coast Guard) with plans to sail around the world once we retired at about 38. Didn't happen because we divorced (he got the sailboat!) before that.

I'll have to link the tablet to the TV and give that a watch Spartana. I sold my boat when we decided to get serious about saving, and I miss it. Especially at this time of year when all my yachty friends are busy waxing and washing prepping for launch. Our boat was not an around-the-world yacht. It was small and fun and I loved racing it and dreamed of cruising, but my wife was scared silly, wouldn't let the kids near the docks, let alone the boat, and it was a waste as a one-person adventure.

Someday maybe I'll get that dream back. For now, its only a someday though, and nothing near doable.

gaja

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #105 on: May 01, 2015, 02:59:03 PM »
Perhaps I don't understand it because I see them as related? This is probably related to my Americaness but still something I find interesting, in that others people/cultures/whatever don't see them as related (ie nudity and sexuality) because I do.

This is actually part of the joy of travel actually in my opinion, I'm not trying to judge their way as better or worse, I just find the difference interesting, which maybe did not come across in my earlier comments. I am not trying to change their view or behavior, as you say I am in their country, but I also don't think my or Spartana's previous comments indicated that we were trying to change their behavior, just really remarking on the difference.

One of the things I actually really enjoy is studying foreign language because I find it very interesting to learn about the ways different languages approach the challenges of explaining the world. I also really, really, really enjoy the way non-native English speakers will utilize the English language - their interpretation can be so different because it also informed by how their native language is spoken and I'm pretty sure when I speak German it sounds Englishified. It's fun :-)

One thing is that some see sexuality and nudity as related and others don't. Most places, few frown if you as an adult dress with more clothes than necessary. A bigger issue is if you bring a little girl to a beach in Scandinavia, and insist on putting a bikini top on her. For a lot of scandinavians, that bikini top shows that you see the baby as a sexual object, and that is completely and totaly gross. Naked kids are just cute and natural, their nakedness has nothing what so ever to do with sex. Covering them up is done to proc´tect from the sun, and for hygiene. I know women from here who have taken their girls to beaches in the US, been told to cover them up, and have freaked out that anybody could think about a little girl in that way.

Megma

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #106 on: May 01, 2015, 03:13:09 PM »
Perhaps I don't understand it because I see them as related? This is probably related to my Americaness but still something I find interesting, in that others people/cultures/whatever don't see them as related (ie nudity and sexuality) because I do.

This is actually part of the joy of travel actually in my opinion, I'm not trying to judge their way as better or worse, I just find the difference interesting, which maybe did not come across in my earlier comments. I am not trying to change their view or behavior, as you say I am in their country, but I also don't think my or Spartana's previous comments indicated that we were trying to change their behavior, just really remarking on the difference.

One of the things I actually really enjoy is studying foreign language because I find it very interesting to learn about the ways different languages approach the challenges of explaining the world. I also really, really, really enjoy the way non-native English speakers will utilize the English language - their interpretation can be so different because it also informed by how their native language is spoken and I'm pretty sure when I speak German it sounds Englishified. It's fun :-)

One thing is that some see sexuality and nudity as related and others don't. Most places, few frown if you as an adult dress with more clothes than necessary. A bigger issue is if you bring a little girl to a beach in Scandinavia, and insist on putting a bikini top on her. For a lot of scandinavians, that bikini top shows that you see the baby as a sexual object, and that is completely and totaly gross. Naked kids are just cute and natural, their nakedness has nothing what so ever to do with sex. Covering them up is done to proc´tect from the sun, and for hygiene. I know women from here who have taken their girls to beaches in the US, been told to cover them up, and have freaked out that anybody could think about a little girl in that way.

Fist I'm surprised it's warm enough to go to the beach in Scandinavia in a bikini 😃

Next very interesting Gaja. I sometimes find it strange when I see clothes in stores for young girls that are simply smaller versions of what an adult woman would wear, form what I can tell this is the trend and I find it weird but I'm also pretty sure I wore, maybe not bikinis but two piece swimsuits as a fairly young child.

BlueHouse

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #107 on: May 01, 2015, 08:56:05 PM »
When you first immerse yourself in a different culture, it can be exhilarating.  You free yourself from your own society's conventions, but you are not yet bound by the other society's conventions.  You are learning new things, expanding your horizons and becoming proficient in another culture and another language.  Maybe it is a culture where your money goes farther, or your status as an American makes you instantly more desired or respected, and that feels really good.  But, if you stick around long enough, you begin to become bound by the other culture, and it's unspoken and unwritten norms are a surprise and don't make sense.  And you have to function in the new society, and you aren't very good at, you speak the language, but not well, and you will never be fully integrated, and instead of feeling exhilarated, you start to feel constrained.  That's my experience.
This is a perfect description of my job as a consultant.

Letj

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #108 on: May 01, 2015, 09:02:53 PM »
Thanks for posting this, OP. I've spent a ton of time in the developing world and it definitely isn't for everyone. 'Different' is a very good description, although sometimes I really am comfortable making normative statements on some things being better or worse. For example, in many developing world situations I've found people to be reactive rather than proactive. Ex: imagine you know the power is going to go out at some point, probably today or tomorrow. You have a generator. Rather than keeping it full, checking up on it, doing MX or whatever while the power is on, you wait to do these things until after the power goes out. I'm comfortable saying that being proactive would be better.

That's a very small example of the type of thing you may have to deal with in another culture.
This behavior is everywhere in the developing world. Planning ahead is not something they do. They are pretty laid back and let the day take care of itself. They are very spontaneous and not as concerned with time as North Americans and Europeans. After all those societies are largely undeveloped with limited commercial activities and the weather is good so their environment never really forced them to plan.

Letj

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #109 on: May 01, 2015, 09:09:14 PM »
-  but they seem a lot happier than most Americans I see waddling off to work at 7AM every morning

Absolutely, that's why I said some things are better, some are worse. However, on this particular issue, I feel completely comfortable judging reactive as being worse than proactive.

I call it laziness.

Absolutely not in this case, and this is where you have to be careful bringing normative judgement in it. It is a simple lack of future thinking where I live. The guy is not lazy at all.
In these situations, my way of thinking is..."hope for the best, but plan for the worst".  Do these not people plan for the future at all?  The folks on this website certainly do.  Most of us seem to have financial spreadsheets showing our projected net worth every year for the next century ;).
Plan for the future? They have no resources and live today for today. This is the way it is for much of the world but those people are the happiest.

Letj

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #110 on: May 01, 2015, 09:15:07 PM »
Perhaps I don't understand it because I see them as related? This is probably related to my Americaness but still something I find interesting, in that others people/cultures/whatever don't see them as related (ie nudity and sexuality) because I do.

This is actually part of the joy of travel actually in my opinion, I'm not trying to judge their way as better or worse, I just find the difference interesting, which maybe did not come across in my earlier comments. I am not trying to change their view or behavior, as you say I am in their country, but I also don't think my or Spartana's previous comments indicated that we were trying to change their behavior, just really remarking on the difference.

One of the things I actually really enjoy is studying foreign language because I find it very interesting to learn about the ways different languages approach the challenges of explaining the world. I also really, really, really enjoy the way non-native English speakers will utilize the English language - their interpretation can be so different because it also informed by how their native language is spoken and I'm pretty sure when I speak German it sounds Englishified. It's fun :-)
Why should nudity be related to sexuality? It's just the human body. There are some primitive societies where people don't wear clothes. Is exposing the breast so different from exposing the legs?

Jenni

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #111 on: May 01, 2015, 09:32:57 PM »
You might enjoy this blog from The Sailing Channel Prospecter. It's an older step-relative of mine who sailed around the world solo (and is a partially paralyzed from the knees down from a hang gliding accident) as well as had a pretty adventurous life. He died a few years ago (on his sailboat in Martinique) but had a pretty amazing life. Make sure and look at the older posts as they are the more interesting ones.

http://wanderlust3.thesailingchannel.tv/

The ex-hub and I had bought and lived on our small sailboat for awhile (both were active duty Coast Guard) with plans to sail around the world once we retired at about 38. Didn't happen because we divorced (he got the sailboat!) before that.

I'll have to link the tablet to the TV and give that a watch Spartana. I sold my boat when we decided to get serious about saving, and I miss it. Especially at this time of year when all my yachty friends are busy waxing and washing prepping for launch. Our boat was not an around-the-world yacht. It was small and fun and I loved racing it and dreamed of cruising, but my wife was scared silly, wouldn't let the kids near the docks, let alone the boat, and it was a waste as a one-person adventure.

Someday maybe I'll get that dream back. For now, its only a someday though, and nothing near doable.
My husband does not like kayaking on our local lake. He just feels uncomfortable and even with life jackets on, he just does not like it. So I feel your pain.

I've really enjoyed this thread because I live on a farm out in the country, 20 miles from the town where my kids go to school and I teach. I have realized that this is not where I would choose to live, in the same way that many who move to a tropical paradise don't end up staying longterm. However, since my hubby loves it here (his great-grandparents homesteaded), here I shall stay. Hopefully I can travel more when my kids are a little older/when I hit early retirement! Hoping to road trip with some cousins, as DH is not into being away from home for very long.

NICE!

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #112 on: May 02, 2015, 02:12:56 AM »
This behavior is everywhere in the developing world. Planning ahead is not something they do. They are pretty laid back and let the day take care of itself. They are very spontaneous and not as concerned with time as North Americans and Europeans. After all those societies are largely undeveloped with limited commercial activities and the weather is good so their environment never really forced them to plan.

I'm aware of this. I live here.

The man is hired to do a job. His cultural background is part of the reason he isn't good at it. That is a weakness of this particular culture in this particular context. This culture has strengths, too.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 02:14:30 AM by NICE! »

okonumiyaki

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #113 on: May 02, 2015, 02:44:32 AM »
Thanks for posting this, OP. I've spent a ton of time in the developing world and it definitely isn't for everyone. 'Different' is a very good description, although sometimes I really am comfortable making normative statements on some things being better or worse. For example, in many developing world situations I've found people to be reactive rather than proactive. Ex: imagine you know the power is going to go out at some point, probably today or tomorrow. You have a generator. Rather than keeping it full, checking up on it, doing MX or whatever while the power is on, you wait to do these things until after the power goes out. I'm comfortable saying that being proactive would be better.

That's a very small example of the type of thing you may have to deal with in another culture.
This behavior is everywhere in the developing world. Planning ahead is not something they do. They are pretty laid back and let the day take care of itself. They are very spontaneous and not as concerned with time as North Americans and Europeans. After all those societies are largely undeveloped with limited commercial activities and the weather is good so their environment never really forced them to plan.

This is post hoc reasoning.  Rice harvests actually need more planning than wheat or maize, and massive engineering projects like the Chinese canals, Borobudur or the Mayan pyramids show that organized societies existed in developing countries.  ISTR that it wasn't until the 19th century that China wasn't the worlds largest economy.

Indian software companies, and just about all of the Chinese economy, seem to be doing quite well, despite being from developing countries

(OK, I am a bit sensitive, I grew up in India, and now live/ work in China)

MMMaybe

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #114 on: May 02, 2015, 03:18:47 AM »
Thanks for posting this, OP. I've spent a ton of time in the developing world and it definitely isn't for everyone. 'Different' is a very good description, although sometimes I really am comfortable making normative statements on some things being better or worse. For example, in many developing world situations I've found people to be reactive rather than proactive. Ex: imagine you know the power is going to go out at some point, probably today or tomorrow. You have a generator. Rather than keeping it full, checking up on it, doing MX or whatever while the power is on, you wait to do these things until after the power goes out. I'm comfortable saying that being proactive would be better.

That's a very small example of the type of thing you may have to deal with in another culture.

This is all very true. Generally speaking there is a lack of planning/foresight going on. It can definitely be annoying and actually quite tiring to deal with.

But I am not sure it is cultural as such, I think it is more down to a lack of power or maybe self determination on the part of the lesser educated and working classes. They are not encouraged to think outside of the box and employees really do fear sticking their necks out in general. So you will see less risk taking and less taking of initiative, generally speaking. People will wait for permission to act or a specific instruction so that it is not their fault if something goes wrong.

Your story about the guy failing to maintain the generator would not be particularly unusual here. I just accept that everything that needs to happen around here, requires more of my input (read: reminding/nagging) than I would like. If I want something to happen on my timetable (or something vaguely approximating my timetable), I need to push it along in a non-aggressive way by being present, reminding or by offering help or advice.

OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #115 on: May 02, 2015, 08:59:54 AM »
No, I'm not. And don't come at me with that cultural relativism line and with an inaccurate picture of the situation. Normative judgements do have a place in life.

We're talking about the generator for my building. I couldn't care less about how someone else runs their household, I'm talking about where I'm located and where the person is hired to provide a service.

------------
Finally, don't instruct me on how to live in other places. I've spent a large portion of my life overseas in various environments from Europe to Asia to Africa. I know my way around.

LOL, no, WE aren't talking about the generator in your building NICE.  YOU are talking about that generator.  I am talking about differences in general.  Obviously, YOUR generator issue annoys you personally.  Try another example.

When I lived on Rhodes, all the sewage went to septic tanks.  No municipal sewage drains.  Now growing up in Canada, I was familiar with septic tanks as we had one at my parent's summer cottage.  Some people never checked them and some people believed you should have them pumped out every 5 years or so whether they needed it or not.  On Rhodes, the norm was to wait till they overflowed.  That's how you know they need pumped out.  If they aren't overflowing, why would they need to be pumped out?  It's what I refer to as Greek logic.  It's logical, it just isn't the same logic someone else might use.  What you are saying is that the only ACCEPTABLE logic is YOUR logic.

Here are some examples of Greek logic when it comes to driving.

Greece supposedly has the highest rate of traffic fatalities of any European country.  To begin with you have to bear in mind that unless you understand the culture and thinking of Greek drivers you have little chance of anticipating their moves.   So let's begin with some simple facts.
 
Most of the fatalities happen on the mainland so if you are living on an island you cut down the odds.  Most fatalities on islands involve tourists and alcohol so if you stay out of those categories you cut down the odds.  Most Greek men drive as if they owned the whole road.  Around half of the Greek women driving cars on the islands don't have a license.  Most have no insurance.  Keep these points in mind.

Now to understand why a Greek would behave in a way you consider insane, unreasonable or whatever, consider the following.  Greek drivers generally are following Greek logic not your logic so you have to come to grips with that.  For example, a stop sign means stop if there is traffic approaching from your right or left.  Why would you stop if there isn't?  The same rule often applies to a red light. 

Yield signs (which are rare) always mean the other guy should yield to you.  Every 2 lane road in Greece has 3 lanes.  The one in your direction, the one in the other direction and the invisible one in the middle that you use for passing a bus uphill on a blind corner. 

When you stop at a traffic light and a car is in front of you, you blow your horn when the light turns green, before you even touch the throttle.  When you see a friend in the street you stop in the middle of the street to chat.  If someone behind you is blowing their horn and screaming for you to move, you ignore them or tell them you will only be a few minutes.  Parking in the middle of the street also follows this rule.  Why are they in such a rush that they can't wait for you to finish your business?  After all you were in front so your needs come first.   If you want to park but there are no parking spaces available, where else can you park but in the middle of the street?  If you want to go into a store and no parking is available right in front of it, thus forcing you to park in the street, why would anyone expect you to park further up the street in front of a store you don't want to go to? 

When the white bands designating a pedestrian crossing area were painted on the streets after entry into the EU, why did no one tell anyone that you have to stop for pedestrians crossing?  If they did tell you, how can they expect a pedestrian to stop a car?  The car is bigger than them.   

All cars in front of you should signal their turns.  All cars behind you should not expect you to signal your turns.
Are you getting the idea?  The logic is simple and combined with the principle that you can do as you please but no one else can, explains Greek driving.  If you just think in the same way, you'll have no problems driving.

Now you may say their logic is crazy NICE but it is their logic that counts, not yours and it is their 'normative judgements' that count, not yours.
 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 09:01:26 AM by OldPro »

OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #116 on: May 02, 2015, 09:07:37 AM »
Megma and spartana, when I wrote, "So the point is that whether the culture sees a foreign man as a rich catch for marriage or see women as sluttish, they see them as they see them.  Whether you approve of their view or not is irrelevant when you are in their country.  They're going to see you as they do and you can't change that.  Therefore, you must be prepared to deal with that 'difference'.", I was making a general statement. 

It was only in the next paragraph I was responding directly to you megma.  The first paragraph was not directed at anyone in particular.

Albert

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #117 on: May 02, 2015, 09:12:58 AM »
It used to be a bit of a wild west driving wise in Italy as well, but not any more as police has cracked down heavily on it (particularly in the North) and there is not that much difference between driving there and in Switzerland. I wouldn't be surprised if that happens in Greece as well in sometime soon. Of course that's for them to decide not me, but cultures do change. If they didn't we'd all still be going to church obediently every Sunday (just an example).

OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #118 on: May 02, 2015, 09:42:41 AM »
Prospector, you wrote, "One of the things I have always thought would be cool is to drop out and sail between ports. I know you addressed this earlier in the thread, but you seemed really negative about the idea."

I'm not sure what it was I wrote that you saw as being negative about the idea.  If anything, I think I am just interested in pointing out the realities of living in other places.  Whether on land or on sea.  I think living on a boat is much like living in an RV.  For some people it's fine and for others it can wear thin pretty quickly.

My main objection to people thinking they will 'sail away into the sunset' in their retirement, is that so many of those who do, do so without adequate experience and qualifications.  Did you know one of the cheapest places to buy a boat is Hawaii.  Why?  Because so many sail from the US west coast to Hawaii as their first real passage of any signifigance and it literally scares the shit out of them.  They make it to Hawaii and that is the end of their grand retirement plan to sail the world.

I've done 3 Atlantic passages which are often described as 'long periods of boredom interspersed with moments of sheer terror.'  See here under the definition of 'cruising'.  http://sailccyc.org/humor.htm
Also see the other definition of cruising which is, 'fixing your boat in exotic locations.'  These are meant to be funny definitions but in fact most of them are based on reality.

Regarding books on sailing, I've read many including Roth.  If you want a good 'how to' book that will feed your dream, I think the 'Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia' by Steve and Linda Dashew is one of the books every crusing sailor should own.
http://www.amazon.com/Offshore-Cruising-Encyclopedia-II-Linda-Dashew/dp/0965802817

OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #119 on: May 02, 2015, 10:20:22 AM »
When you first immerse yourself in a different culture, it can be exhilarating.  You free yourself from your own society's conventions, but you are not yet bound by the other society's conventions.  You are learning new things, expanding your horizons and becoming proficient in another culture and another language.  Maybe it is a culture where your money goes farther, or your status as an American makes you instantly more desired or respected, and that feels really good.  But, if you stick around long enough, you begin to become bound by the other culture, and it's unspoken and unwritten norms are a surprise and don't make sense.  And you have to function in the new society, and you aren't very good at, you speak the language, but not well, and you will never be fully integrated, and instead of feeling exhilarated, you start to feel constrained.  That's my experience.

Well said 2527.  I've come to see my life as a series of sojourns.  Each lasts as long as it lasts until something happens that causes me to move on.  I think I just accept I will never be fully integrated as you say, but if you accept that, you do not have to feel constrained.  If you are always an outsider then being an outsider is in fact your norm if you see what I mean.  In fact, I might even go so far as to say others are not integrated in MY world.  I actually see people who are familiar and comfortable with only one set of cultural norms as the ones who are not 'integrated' into the larger world and are 'constrained' in their acceptance of 'different' as a result.

It's like homesickness.  I understand the concept but have never had the feeling.  Some people get homesick when they vacation for a week, I've met some of them.  They are constrained by what they are comfortable with and don't do well at integrating differences into their life.     

OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #120 on: May 02, 2015, 10:27:09 AM »

One thing is that some see sexuality and nudity as related and others don't. Most places, few frown if you as an adult dress with more clothes than necessary. A bigger issue is if you bring a little girl to a beach in Scandinavia, and insist on putting a bikini top on her. For a lot of scandinavians, that bikini top shows that you see the baby as a sexual object, and that is completely and totaly gross. Naked kids are just cute and natural, their nakedness has nothing what so ever to do with sex. Covering them up is done to proc´tect from the sun, and for hygiene. I know women from here who have taken their girls to beaches in the US, been told to cover them up, and have freaked out that anybody could think about a little girl in that way.

Now that is an EXCELLENT example of how something can be seen differently depending on cultural norms.  I've never thought about it but it does make complete sense that you are turning a little girl into a sexual object.  Sadly, dressing kids up as if they were adults is all too common.  Look at the kids beauty pagents and how they are not only dressed but also have makeup applied.  What is a 5 year old doing wearing lipstick?  https://www.google.ca/#q=kids+beauty+pagents+sexualizaton

OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #121 on: May 02, 2015, 10:48:47 AM »
This is all very true. Generally speaking there is a lack of planning/foresight going on. It can definitely be annoying and actually quite tiring to deal with.

But I am not sure it is cultural as such, I think it is more down to a lack of power or maybe self determination on the part of the lesser educated and working classes. They are not encouraged to think outside of the box and employees really do fear sticking their necks out in general. So you will see less risk taking and less taking of initiative, generally speaking. People will wait for permission to act or a specific instruction so that it is not their fault if something goes wrong.


I would say that is cultural MMMaybe.  For example, it has been studied and shown that Russians prefer to be told what to do.  It has literally become part of their culture after generations of what you describe.  Culture simply means what is the norm.  If that is the norm then that is part of the culture.

I would also say that a lack of planning/foresight/living for today etc. are not confined to third world countries etc.  as a comment by letj seemed to imply.
"This behavior is everywhere in the developing world. Planning ahead is not something they do. They are pretty laid back and let the day take care of itself. They are very spontaneous and not as concerned with time as North Americans and Europeans. After all those societies are largely undeveloped with limited commercial activities and the weather is good so their environment never really forced them to plan."

Greece is not a third world country.  Nor is Spain, Italy, the south of France and many other places where a more laid back approach to time and tomorrow is to be found.  There actually seems to be more of a correlation to weather than anything else in my experience. 

Take the 'siesta' for example.  it is practiced in many countries and there is no doubt it's origin lies in the weather.  When it is simply too hot to work during the middle of the day, then you don't work.  It only makes sense to live that way.  So when you see a Mexican or Caribbean Islander or Greek or Spaniard lying in a hammock having a siesta, you as a tourist from a cooler climate country might see them as 'wasting time' or 'lazy' or whatever but in fact as the saying goes, 'Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.'  https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100401002929AAQTs07

I actually still have a siesta every day even though it has been years since I lived in a country where it is the norm.  I find it has great benefits.

NICE!

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #122 on: May 02, 2015, 12:13:14 PM »
LOL, no, WE aren't talking about the generator in your building NICE.  YOU are talking about that generator.  I am talking about differences in general.  Obviously, YOUR generator issue annoys you personally.  Try another example.

...

Now you may say their logic is crazy NICE but it is their logic that counts, not yours and it is their 'normative judgements' that count, not yours.

I'm not sure if you're trying unnerve me, but the pronoun 'we' is often used in intellectual discussion. I wasn't literally saying that you are talking about this.

In this particular situation, my normative judgement is important. The man is hired to provide a service and he is not succeeding. His job is to have the generator on immediately after the power goes out. This is not merely a first world service imperative, it is a security imperative. I'm not going to provide any more details but you can rest assured, I'm not wrong on this one.

I thank you for your OP and giving people relevant wisdom about FIRE in other countries. People need to hear much of what you're saying. However, there are absolutely strengths and weaknesses in different cultures. My generator anecdote quite clearly illustrates this. I'm sure I could make up a story where American culture would fail someone. Relativism is as dangerous (or even more) as people who blithely go around comparing every aspect of another culture against their own.

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #123 on: May 02, 2015, 02:47:04 PM »
I'm not trying to unnerve anyone NICE.  You appear to be talking about an individual specific example that applies to and matters to you.   

Now if we were living in the USA and you expected me to adopt American logic in my job then I would say OK, you have a point in terms of 'doing my job'.  I would need to change my accepted norms in that circumstance if I didn't want to get fired.  But my norm would only be a 'weakness' IF I were in your country, not mine. 

Let's try putting the shoe on the other foot.  Suppose I think it is totally illogical to worry about a generator before it is needed.  Now along you come to MY country and you keep checking on the condition of the generator and worrying about it not being ready to start at a moment's notice.  It's obvious to me that YOUR behaviour is a cultural weakness.  You don't know how to relax and take life as it comes from my point of view of what is normal and what is a weakness.  Does it seem reasonable to you to say you have a cultural 'weakness' towards the generator?

I say no, you have a cultural DIFFERENCE towards how you deal with generators and that is the entire point I have been talking about in this thread.  The ability or inability to accept those differences is the biggest factor in determining whether someone will 'stick' in a new country or not.

Now I don't know the specific circumstances surrounding your generator but I do know they are only specific to you.  If you want to say in what country this generator is located and what nationality the other person is then I could probably understand the circumstances.  But IF the generator was in another country and you are an American living in that other country expecting a local man to do what YOU think he should do in regards to the generator, then YOU would be the one expecting something it isn't a good idea to expect.

In the bikini discussion above, which group have a cultural weakness?  Those who don't put tops on kids or those who do put tops on kids?   Both are following their own logic.  But not covering them in one country is seen as wrong while covering them in another country is seen as wrong.  They can't both be 'right' can they?  Well, yes they can.  The right thing to do as a visitor to any country is what is considered 'right' in that country.

It really does matter who is in whose country NICE and you haven't made that clear.  If you are in his country, his action with the generator is NOT a weakness, it is a difference that YOU are not comfortable with and do not want to accept.



 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 02:57:42 PM by OldPro »

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #124 on: May 02, 2015, 03:55:20 PM »
...

My individual and specific example is important because it strikes at the heart of cultural relativism. There are strengths and weaknesses to cultures. In this particular circumstance, a man has a job and he is not performing it sufficiently. This is due to his culture's present versus future mindset (or, if you will, reactive vs proactive). In many cases, this is a strength because, as an earlier poster mentioned, people are happier in such cultures. It is a weakness here because it is precluding him from performing his duties. His duty is to make sure that the power is running 24/7 and there are very many reasons for this which are real and serious, like health, safety, and security.

Where I will agree with you is on the 'sticking' point. At a minimum, you have to recognize such situations and be able to see that there is a cultural difference involved. If you absolutely have to have something a certain way (such as my situation), you will need to do everything you can to make sure you have either:

1) structured the situation/job/whatever so that the cultural difference is irrelevant (in my situation, that would be a generator that automatically cuts on)
2) been willing to find someone who understands your context and can adjust to it

Or, you could just not be there, like you said. I do not have that option, so it isn't on my list.

This is ultimately a bit of a tangent from the original discussion. Once again, I think your commentary has been valuable but I must stress that some balance is needed. Cultural relativism is a very dangerous philosophy that ignores the reality that there are strengths and weaknesses in a given culture or society.

Letj

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #125 on: May 02, 2015, 07:25:07 PM »
This is an awesome awesome thread. It's discussions like this is why I am so addicted to MMM. Oldpro I am enjoying your posts and point of view immensely. Sounds like you've had an adventurous and interesting life which of course informs your perspective; one we don't see a whole lot of.

OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #126 on: May 02, 2015, 09:41:13 PM »
NICE, I completly agree with your intended point now that you have sent me a PM and made it clear.  Cultural relativism can be misconstrued and misused to justify things that simply cannot be justified.

I do think your example did not have enough 'weight' to make your point clear even though it is a perfectly valid example.  I would have used a more pointed example even if it did take things farther off on a tangent.  Examples of the possible misuse of cultural relativism to justify things like forced arranged marriages; honour killing; persecution and even murder for religious beliefs or sexual preferences.

Those are not just 'differences' in culture and things that I would suggest people should just accept as different at all.  They are far beyond anything I have been referring to as 'different'.

The original thought of 'cultural relativism' was that we should look at and understand a person's beliefs and behaviour based on that person's culture, not our own culture.  To that extent I agree with it.  But where the flaw comes into it is when someone who professes to be a 'cultural relativist' then goes on to suggest that even those differences in culture of conflicting moral beliefs, is not to be considered in terms of right and wrong or good and bad.  That's the flaw in their logic.

They can argue the person's culture does not consider their behaviour morally wrong.  I would reply that their behaviour is a crime against HUMANITY and nothing can excuse that.

Similarly, if a man's job is to make sure a generator comes on within a few minutes at most, let's say for example a generator that keeps an operating theatre in a hospital working, then no, we cannot use cultural relativism to justify him not making sure that is what will happen.  We can use it to understand why he didn't do what he should but it does not justify his actions.  As you say, we must find another answer to the problem and make sure the generator works when it has to, not a half hour later.  It is the potential CONSEQUENCES that make his actions unacceptable.  It isn't just a 'difference'.

It is a tangent as you say NICE and not really the focus of this thread as originally intended but it is indeed something that someone living in another country might find themselves faced with.  So bringing it up to indicate that we should not use 'cultural relativism' BLINDLY in the sense of accepting ALL cultural 'differences' we encounter, is completly on topic.  Thank you.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 09:53:44 PM by OldPro »

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #127 on: May 03, 2015, 06:47:10 AM »
Thanks and yes, I agree that my generator anecdote is nowhere near as powerful as genital mutilation or lack of recognition of marital rape.

I do think there are lesser 'evils' that can be judged, but I believe that this is a pretty small counterpoint to what you're saying. Furthermore, I think that the lion's share of people would unfortunately use what I've said as a justification for judging something completely inconsequential and just different. One example where I live would be the fact that you do not confront people where I live. People generally try to go through an intermediary, who gets to hear how the really think. I learned the hard way a couple of times that directly confronting an issue is seen as an insult or an insult on one's character. That's definitely an example of the type of cultural difference that you're referencing.

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #128 on: May 03, 2015, 09:42:41 AM »
Perhaps I don't understand it because I see them as related? This is probably related to my Americaness but still something I find interesting, in that others people/cultures/whatever don't see them as related (ie nudity and sexuality) because I do.

This is actually part of the joy of travel actually in my opinion, I'm not trying to judge their way as better or worse, I just find the difference interesting, which maybe did not come across in my earlier comments. I am not trying to change their view or behavior, as you say I am in their country, but I also don't think my or Spartana's previous comments indicated that we were trying to change their behavior, just really remarking on the difference.

One of the things I actually really enjoy is studying foreign language because I find it very interesting to learn about the ways different languages approach the challenges of explaining the world. I also really, really, really enjoy the way non-native English speakers will utilize the English language - their interpretation can be so different because it also informed by how their native language is spoken and I'm pretty sure when I speak German it sounds Englishified. It's fun :-)

One thing is that some see sexuality and nudity as related and others don't. Most places, few frown if you as an adult dress with more clothes than necessary. A bigger issue is if you bring a little girl to a beach in Scandinavia, and insist on putting a bikini top on her. For a lot of scandinavians, that bikini top shows that you see the baby as a sexual object, and that is completely and totaly gross. Naked kids are just cute and natural, their nakedness has nothing what so ever to do with sex. Covering them up is done to proc´tect from the sun, and for hygiene. I know women from here who have taken their girls to beaches in the US, been told to cover them up, and have freaked out that anybody could think about a little girl in that way.

Fist I'm surprised it's warm enough to go to the beach in Scandinavia in a bikini 😃

Next very interesting Gaja. I sometimes find it strange when I see clothes in stores for young girls that are simply smaller versions of what an adult woman would wear, form what I can tell this is the trend and I find it weird but I'm also pretty sure I wore, maybe not bikinis but two piece swimsuits as a fairly young child.
Ha!  It's cold.  My husband has relatives in Denmark and I've been twice, once in July.  We went to the beach.

The relatives wore suits, but pretty much only for the prudish Americans benefits.  Normally they wouldn't.  Water was super cold.  So I get in the water with my spouse and my FIL (who is the American half of the family).  He starts making jokes about the naked guy getting in on my other side.  My husband laughs at him "her glasses are off, she can't see a thing!"

But really, it wasn't until I had kids that I let go of the nudity/sexuality thing, mostly because of 2 things - the Danes, and breastfeeding.

OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #129 on: May 03, 2015, 09:54:41 AM »
Yes that is true spartana although if you understand how you may be viewed, there are usually ways you can change their view of you as an individual. 

To a degree, people may have an expectation of 'what you are' but if you do not live up to that expectation and you show that you are not that kind of person, they will probably come to accept you for 'what you really are'.  That's no different anywhere.  the key is to understand where you are starting from in their eyes and then do what you need to do to give them the right impression, not reinforce the impression they started out with.  Where someone can go wrong is by not understanding how certain behaviour may be perceived and the impression it will give.  If you understand it you can deal with it.

Here is a simple example.  A single woman can go into a bar in Greece and with a few polite no's make it clear that she is not there to be picked up.  Regardless of how she was perceived when she walked in, she can change that perception quite easily.  But if she then accepts a ride home (however innocent it is in her eyes) with a man, she will have undone that change and reinforced the initial belief. 

It just means a single woman needs to guard her reputation just as a single woman would have needed to do in your home country in the past.  It may be an old way of thinking in your home country today but it is still the way of thinking in many countries.  So you accept that 'difference' and behave accordingly.  You don't have to rule that country out as a place to live, you just have to live as a 'proper woman' in that country does.

I knew several single foreign women in Greece who had no problem with maintaining a reputation as a 'good woman' even though they sometimes enjoyed a night out in a bar socializing.  They could actually do it moreso than a Greek woman would be able to.  To a degree, being foreign gave them some latitude a local woman would not be given.

In a small town in Turkey however it would mean you do not go to a bar at all.  If socializing in a bar is something you actually want to be able to do then yes, you will have to rule that country out.  So it is an individual country by country thing depending on what it is you want to be able to do.  If you aren't into bars at all, that restriction doesn't have to mean you rule the country out.  Again, it's just a case of can you deal with the 'different' or not.   


OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #130 on: May 03, 2015, 10:14:56 AM »
Nudity on the beach.  Well, it's funny how you can change your views of that over time and with familiarity.

I'm an ordinary N. American guy.  So when I first went to Greece and saw all those tourists on the beach topless, you can bet my eyes were out on stalks taking it all in. 

Then I started noticing some things.  Greeks generally do not approve of nudity on the beach.  They put up with it from tourists because it's good for business.  I found that somewhat sad that money trumped what they would really have liked the tourists to do.  Dress modestly.

The tourists who do go topless are in fact insulting Greece and saying 'my norms are more important than your norms.  I'm the tourist, I'm the person spending the money, you need to accept my norms in your country.  I don't need to conform to your norms at all.'

That is a case of where 'different' in a culture is being imposed on the host country by the tourists.

OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #131 on: May 03, 2015, 10:37:01 AM »
Some interesting (I think) and good 'differences' you can encounter.

While living on Rhodes, there were 3 things I never saw.  I never saw a homeless person.  I never saw a drunk Greek teenager.  I never saw or heard of a mugging/purse snatching.  How does your home country fare on those 3 things?

In Greece, family is still extremely important.  As is your family name and family honour.  If you have a cousin twice removed who becomes unemployed or destitute for whatever reason, you have a familial obligation to take that person in and care for them.  Senior Citizen homes are also almost non-existant.  There is no need for them.

In Greece, there is no legal drinking age.  A bartender could legally serve a 10 year old a drink if asked.  But the kids don't ask.  You rarely even see a drunk Greek adult.  That's because their 'macho' culture sees a man who cannot hold his drink or does not know his limit, as not being a 'man' at all.  So kids don't see their parents getting drunk and they know that you don't drink if you can't 'hold' your drink.  Contrast that to cultures in which young people see the entire point of going out on a Friday night as being to see just how fast they can get drunk.

In business, Greeks can be ruthless and will take your last dollar if they can.  Yet if you walked down a street and dropped your wallet, no one would think to pick it up and keep it.  You will get a tap on the shoulder and your wallet returned (unless it was a tourist who was behind you maybe).  Stealing (other than in business) is seen as another case of being something no 'real man' would do.  That one may not be so different from your home countries culture but I think it is a matter of degrees.  Remember, I said I never even heard of a mugging.  I can't say that about my home country.

People don't lock doors necessarily and leave keys in their cars without worrying.  That tells you something. 

OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #132 on: May 03, 2015, 10:43:44 AM »
My favourite country for amusing and unusual customs and laws is Switzerland.  I always remember being told during one visit that you were not allowed to mow your lawn on Sunday.  I've since discovered that isn't the strangest by a long shot.

http://www.newlyswissed.com/11-weird-swiss-laws/

Imagine having to get used to those 'differences' in culture.

Albert

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #133 on: May 03, 2015, 10:48:40 AM »
OldPro: obviously you know a lot more about Greece than anyone else in this community so why do you think they got into so much economic trouble lately? Much more so than any other South European country seemingly. It's clear that the culture has some strengths, but there must be some deficiencies as well.

Sadly excessive drinking is a big problem where I come from (crime is not too bad, though). It seems to me that this is also somehow related to weather. South Europeans drink to excess the least there as if you go to England, Finland or Russia...

Albert

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #134 on: May 03, 2015, 11:01:21 AM »
My favourite country for amusing and unusual customs and laws is Switzerland.  I always remember being told during one visit that you were not allowed to mow your lawn on Sunday.  I've since discovered that isn't the strangest by a long shot.

http://www.newlyswissed.com/11-weird-swiss-laws/

Imagine having to get used to those 'differences' in culture.

It's not that bad, how dead seriously this is taken depends very much on where exactly you live. Major Swiss cities these days are quite cosmopolitan and a lot more relaxed on such stuff than traditional villages. I don't think I'd be happy living in one of those...

Lyssa

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #135 on: May 03, 2015, 11:55:05 AM »
I can say that my young male friend (American and white) who lived in China definitely had a surplus attractive Chinese women who were after him all the time. ALL THE TIME.

Fun story, when I was visiting we got of the train in some city and walked toward our hotel. This happened to be down a street full of "enterprising" young women (prostitution is not legal in China from my understanding, but I found to be plentiful during my trip there ~10 years ago). A woman would be looking out her doorway from her place of business see my friend and become excited and when she saw me walking next to him her face would fall in disappointment, this happened in a wave all the way down the street.

Most of the women after my friend were not prostitutes but a fair number were aspiring trophy wives.

I was also pretty popular in China (especially when out alone), but no one tried to get me to pay :-)

And I definitely could not live there under those conditions of being constantly harassed for being a blond foreign woman!

"And I definitely could not live there under those conditions of being constantly harassed for being a blond foreign woman!"

As a foreign man I would try and put up with the harassment from the women,  just so as not to create any cultural conflict like
Ha Ha - That's very noble of you :-)! But I can see that it can be a big problem for guys - always wondering if that nice local woman you meet loves you for you or because you are a rich foreigner. And probably the cultural differences between dating and sex might be very different living as an ex-pat compared to your home country. Of course single men are generally valued as rich foreigners and us single women are viewed a bit differently (slutty westerners with no morals). Fortunately all that is probably in the past and not the case in most tropical island paradises any longer (although a friend in Indonesia says differently).

Most women I met in China when I was single made much more money than me and drove nicer cars than mine :)

My friend was also basically broke but that U.S. passport was apparently made not just of gold but diamonds.

I can vouch for the "American women are slutty" stereotype being alive and well in most of Western Europe also Spartana based on my dating experiences in grad school...yet Europeans also simultaneously find Americans to be prudish, a dichotomy I've never understood!
Yeah I've seen a lot of that. Both sets of grandparents and my Mom are all North European born and raised (and I was born there but am American) and they seem to have no problem whipping off their clothes to sunbathe topless or nekkid (which shocked me the first time I visited my old grandma when I was 14 in Europe and she started to undress in a public park - the HORROR!!! just to her slip fortunately!). Yet they'd get crazy if you don't dress appropriately or act lady-like outside of the beach or park, flirted with men (boys), or even went out with them alone. Very funny. I guess it's because Americans equate nudity with overt sexuality and most Europeans don't - just a natural thing to do in very specific public places.   The contrast took some getting use to as a shy  (i.e. prudish) American.

Spot on. We're much more comfortable with nudity. When growing up it was still very normal that toddlers and preschool kids were completly naked on regular beaches (not so common anymore). I also saw my parents naked on a regular basis and when finishing my law degree my parent's neighbors were so exited about hearing my results that when I knocked they stormed out on their balkony in underwear. Somehow I can't see that happening in the U.S. :-)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 12:50:20 AM by Lyssa »

Lyssa

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #136 on: May 03, 2015, 12:18:06 PM »
Perhaps I don't understand it because I see them as related? This is probably related to my Americaness but still something I find interesting, in that others people/cultures/whatever don't see them as related (ie nudity and sexuality) because I do.

This is actually part of the joy of travel actually in my opinion, I'm not trying to judge their way as better or worse, I just find the difference interesting, which maybe did not come across in my earlier comments. I am not trying to change their view or behavior, as you say I am in their country, but I also don't think my or Spartana's previous comments indicated that we were trying to change their behavior, just really remarking on the difference.

One of the things I actually really enjoy is studying foreign language because I find it very interesting to learn about the ways different languages approach the challenges of explaining the world. I also really, really, really enjoy the way non-native English speakers will utilize the English language - their interpretation can be so different because it also informed by how their native language is spoken and I'm pretty sure when I speak German it sounds Englishified. It's fun :-)
^The bolded! Like Megma, I have no problem with what people do (and I personally was a topless sunbather when I lived in Europe and love it - even though it took me a while to become comfortable with it and see it as not a sexual thing but a natural thing) and I have no interest in changing their behavior or even judging it from my Western standards. BUT, I also know that I have certain freedoms as a woman in the US that may not be as available to me in other places, and so I may not want to live in those places permanently. I assume it's the same for men too. So it's not about judging (or even being judged) or wanting to change anyone's culture, just acknowledging the differences and whether or not you'd want to live with those differences.

Why is judging other cultures such a no-go? I am certainly judging Saudi Arabia when I tell you that not even for instant FI I would even for a split second consider moving there. And I habe plenty of reason to back up sich judgement.

To choose a less dramatic example, I would almost under no circumstances move to Greece because all those points mentioned by Oldpro.

On the other hand I can live with a Saudi cleric calling me a heretical slut from hell and a typical Greek calling me a German tightwad and annoyance. I consider the first my enemy and the second a cherished but really strange relative (like your uncle who just got himself a new car and then complains about being broke).

I consider it unfortunate that judging religious beliefs is such a no-go and even more unfortunate that judging cultures is slowly being moved in the very same directions. In the long run, a little honesty does a better job preventing resentment than the make belief 'all cultures are of equal value and equally beneficial to mankind'. Sure, one can argue a long time whether in the end Prussian discipline or Island Time is better or the lesser of two evils but I hope that noone really would like to make the point that Atztec style human sacrifices are somehow of equal value as the peaceful ways of the Khoisan.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 12:49:30 AM by Lyssa »

OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #137 on: May 03, 2015, 03:43:26 PM »
Lyssa, if you are German, you just have to learn that when you travel as a tourist, putting your towel on a sunbed by the pool at 5am so you can reserve the sunbed is what makes everyone dislike Germans.  That single cultural norm of Germans has probably done more to make them disliked around the world than any other single thing.  LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO9pGQ-7mWg

OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #138 on: May 03, 2015, 04:11:16 PM »
OldPro: obviously you know a lot more about Greece than anyone else in this community so why do you think they got into so much economic trouble lately? Much more so than any other South European country seemingly. It's clear that the culture has some strengths, but there must be some deficiencies as well.

Sadly excessive drinking is a big problem where I come from (crime is not too bad, though). It seems to me that this is also somehow related to weather. South Europeans drink to excess the least there as if you go to England, Finland or Russia...

Albert, it s a long story but I have to say that when the first noises about Greece and its financial woes started in the news it came as no surprise to me.  I have two differing reactions to it.

First is that Greece joined the EU seeing it as a cash cow to be milked for all it was worth and believe me they milked it well.  But that would only work for so long, as it has.  The EU on the other hand having accepted Greece as a member didn't realize that the way Greeks think is entirely different from their northern neighbours.  Expecting them to conform to rules and regulations regarding financing etc. was never going to work from day one.  As an earlier comment pointed out, some cultures are proactive and some are reactive.  When a proactive EU expects a reactive Greece to perform in a certain way, it's never going to happen.  Doomed from the start.

My second reaction is so what will happen to Greece?  Well, if the EU members don't keep bailing them out, so what?  Greece will still be there and life will go on as it always has.  Maybe they'll have a military coup as they did in 1967 that lasted 7 years.  Maybe they won't and they'll just get out of the Euro and go back to the drachma.  Maybe times will be tough for the average person but so what?  They've been tough before and life goes on.  It's all in the hands of the Gods anyway.  Besides, most people are part of a family that has some family land somewhere that they can grow some things on, keep a few goats and chickens.  Life won't be so bad really.  Some salad from the garden, some nice village bread baked in the outdoor oven by Grandmother, pluck a chicken, pour a little homemade Raki, sit in the shade, tell talls tales and leave worry for tomorrow.

In Greek there is a saying, which writing it phonetically in English looks like, 'Tina can ah may'.  Simply translates as something like 'what can I do'.  It's accompanied with the hands out at your side palms up and open and an expression of resignment on your face.  It's how you say, 'it's in the hands of the Gods'. 

If I were to characterize Greeks with a person or character people might recognize, it would be as Alfred E Neuman and his famous quotation.  http://cdn.hotstockmarket.com/8/8c/350x700px-LL-8c363b82_alfred.png

OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #139 on: May 03, 2015, 04:24:34 PM »
Forget the economy, Athens always screws everything up, there's nothing new there.

Let's see if Stavros can beat Georgos today in the big grudge match of Tavli.  My money's on Stavros, he's a sly devil with some really wicked moves sometimes.
http://media.glimpse.org/uploads/GJ1fN8/full.png

NICE!

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #140 on: May 03, 2015, 04:34:21 PM »
Also, the EU is a free trade zone that Germany can easily dominate because some southern European countries (such as Greece) cannot devalue their currency, have tariffs, or use many subsidies. Those are things that less-developed economies often do. Basically, it alters the economic concept of comparative advantage. This is especially true because the EU allows various agricultural subsidies, which definitely benefit the stronger economies (such as allocations that protect the French wine industry).

That has a lot to do with Greece's budget woes. It is way more complicated than the German-driven story about profligate Greeks, although the profligate ways certainly played a role.

For the record, other countries do the same thing as Germany (see: US and EU in the IMF and WTO), so German actions/policies are not unique in this regard.

hybrid

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #141 on: May 03, 2015, 06:00:53 PM »
OldPro is among my newest favorite (of many) member of this forum. What a fun read, what great insights. Would love to buy this man a beer.

OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #142 on: May 04, 2015, 08:17:07 AM »
hybrid, a beer would be fine but it would have to be a Dos Equis my friend.


nyu07

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #143 on: May 04, 2015, 01:30:22 PM »
A little late to the thread but just wanted to say thanks to oldpro for your insightful post.  I want to do something similar when I retire but this post really put some things in perspective!

hybrid

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #144 on: May 04, 2015, 02:15:51 PM »
hybrid, a beer would be fine but it would have to be a Dos Equis my friend.

Now it all makes sense....


BlueHouse

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #145 on: May 04, 2015, 02:41:44 PM »
OldPro is among my newest favorite (of many) member of this forum. What a fun read, what great insights. Would love to buy this man a beer.
Really?  I enjoyed his original post, but I've found many of his comments since then to be offensive.  Telling someone the equivalent of "nobody likes you" is just rude. 
Lyssa, if you are German, you just have to learn that when you travel as a tourist, putting your towel on a sunbed by the pool at 5am so you can reserve the sunbed is what makes everyone dislike Germans.  That single cultural norm of Germans has probably done more to make them disliked around the world than any other single thing.  LOL

The world is a much smaller place than when OldPro was coming up and not only do we have to be culturally sensitive when visiting other countries, but we also need to show the same respect to visitors in our countries.  I have lived and worked in cities with very high tourism rates and I am very pleased to help visitors and no, I don't expect them to know all the local customs.  Sometimes we have to change with the times too. 

hybrid

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #146 on: May 04, 2015, 04:22:21 PM »
OldPro is among my newest favorite (of many) member of this forum. What a fun read, what great insights. Would love to buy this man a beer.
Really?

Really.

Letj

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #147 on: May 04, 2015, 05:54:22 PM »
OldPro is among my newest favorite (of many) member of this forum. What a fun read, what great insights. Would love to buy this man a beer.
Really?  I enjoyed his original post, but I've found many of his comments since then to be offensive.  Telling someone the equivalent of "nobody likes you" is just rude. 
Lyssa, if you are German, you just have to learn that when you travel as a tourist, putting your towel on a sunbed by the pool at 5am so you can reserve the sunbed is what makes everyone dislike Germans.  That single cultural norm of Germans has probably done more to make them disliked around the world than any other single thing.  LOL

The world is a much smaller place than when OldPro was coming up and not only do we have to be culturally sensitive when visiting other countries, but we also need to show the same respect to visitors in our countries.  I have lived and worked in cities with very high tourism rates and I am very pleased to help visitors and no, I don't expect them to know all the local customs.  Sometimes we have to change with the times too.

Lighten up! You'll enjoy life a little more if you're not so sensitive. OldPro may not be your cup of tea but I find him refreshing and full of good insights. Maybe if you lived such an exciting life with all those experiences you'd realize that not everyone is is as sensitive or political correct as we tend to be in America but yet we are the most segregated country on the planet with quite a lot of structural barriers in place for many minorities.

MMMaybe

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #148 on: May 04, 2015, 07:52:43 PM »
Quote

Lighten up! You'll enjoy life a little more if you're not so sensitive. OldPro may not be your cup of tea but I find him refreshing and full of good insights. Maybe if you lived such an exciting life with all those experiences you'd realize that not everyone is is as sensitive or political correct as we tend to be in America but yet we are the most segregated country on the planet with quite a lot of structural barriers in place for many minorities.

I am enjoying this thread immensely. Of course I am "on the ground" here in "Paradise" and am not an armchair traveller so a lot of this rings true for me. Old Pro is telling it how it is, I'm afraid.

It is not Paradise. It is interesting, challenging, delightful, shocking, irritating and mind boggling a lot of the time. I have learnt a lot about different cultures and how they operate and communicate and there are things that I prefer to the West and things that I definitely do not. And thats OK :)

The rest of the world is not hyper sensitive or politically correct like the US. I get asked all kinds of questions that would make the average American's hair stand on end. They are endlessly fascinated by a White African. They are puzzled by how I got to be there in the first place. I wonder if they think I am an Albino? But I just answer questions openly and honestly and don't get offended...



OldPro

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Re: The reality of retiring to a 'tropical paradise'
« Reply #149 on: May 04, 2015, 09:06:09 PM »
hybrid, a beer would be fine but it would have to be a Dos Equis my friend.

Now it all makes sense....

Perhaps moreso than you realize hybrid.  Here is a thread I started on a travel forum a few years ago.  It describes one of my actual travels when I was just a young pup.  https://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/forums/gap-year-round-the-world-travel/topics/unplanned-travel?page=1#post_19784184
It may give you an indication of why I don't follow the pack.

BlueHouse, re your "Sometimes we have to change with the times too."  My answer to that is the same as to rollerblading.  Go to minute 7.35 on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U18VkI0uDxE

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!