The Racial Wealth Gap:Mustachians of Color, feel free to share your experiences!

[fitzgeralday]

Hello everyone, I am a relatively new mustachian but have been a reader of personal finance blogs (in general) for the past few years.  The idea of financial freedom really resonates with me, and has motivated me at the age of 30 to take serious action in different areas of my life to expedite the goal of having absolutely no debt and being able to live the life that I desire. 

While perusing the interwebs today, I came across an article that summarized a recent report issued by the Center for Global Policy Solutions (http://globalpolicysolutions.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Beyond_Broke_FINAL.pdf).  The report takes an in-depth look at both housing and liquid wealth and finds that disparities exist across all races, but particularly for African Americans and Latinos.

I am a Black woman and I found this information to be troubling, but the solutions-oriented part of my brain quickly began analyzing how my life experiences and lessons learned could be a positive contribution. 

Now, I completely understand and am aware of historical and institutional barriers that have and continue to impact financial progression for minority groups.  With that being said, I believe there is a cultural component to wealth building that often finds its way into the conversation for mustachians of color - which leads me to my questions:

What have your experiences been like as a mustachian of color?
Do you feel as though your racial/ethnic background has played a part , either positively or negatively, in your pursuit of FI?
In your experience, what do you believe the solution(s) to be for eliminating the racial wealth gap?

I will be back to share my experiences, but wanted to gauge interest in this topic before proceeding :)

Disclaimer:  I know that topics around race and ethnicity can become heated, but hopefully this thread doesn't detour that direction and remains an opportunity to have constructive dialogue with like-minded individuals.
 

[2527]

Fitzheralday, I'm glad you are here, and I look forward to following this thread.  Full disclosure:  I am white, LOL.  One thing I like about something like an investment with Vanguard is that it works the same for people of all ages, genders, ethnicities, etc.

[DollarBill]

I'd like to chime in but my "white guilt" won't let me...lol. I'd like to say there's no difference but I know there is. I think it all comes down to good family, good influence and a strong will. Unlimited resources wouldn't hurt either.

[trailrated]

I think a big part of it comes down to education, although I know plenty of "Intelligent" people living paycheck to paycheck. Maybe part of it is to give them good role models that let them know what they are truly capable of.

[rob in cal]

I like to hear about people of all races do well by making smart financial choices.  Being white I can't speak  directly about this topic, but many, many wealthy white people came from poor families.
My step-father grew up poor in New York city, and my mom on a middling farm in Nebraska.  Exciting times for her were trips to the library in the summer.  On my dad's side I believe my great-grandparents were poor immigrants (probably peasants) from Bohemia in what was the Austro-Hungarian empire, their American born son rose quickly in the world to become a school principal, and then my dad was an electrical engineer. (and then I end up as a pizza delivery driver, what happened there?)  My point I guess is that poorer people of all races should look to models of success from people of all backgrounds.
   

[DollarBill]

but many, many wealthy white people came from poor families.

I have always looked at this in waves. Rich folks...eventually poor kids. Poor folks work harder to be rich. If it's handed to you then you don't respect it.

[legacyoneup]

South asian here.

There is substantial churn in the wealth of families as they go through boom and bust cycles ( often depending on the capabilities of the heirs ). Most fortunes tend to be squandered by the third generation. Some other family or families rise to take the place of those that fall onto hard times. Where there is churn, there is opportunity to rise up.

I've observed this boom and bust phases within my own family. My great-grandfather was a landowner ( reasonably wealthy) who lost his land (land to the tiller act - BUST). My grandfather found odd jobs and managed to eke out a living (POVERTY). My dad and his siblings managed to carve out better careers based on the free government education they received (SLOW RISE). Parents were swindled out of most of their life savings in the late 90's (BUST). My sister and I have more than repaired the damage. I am doing reasonably well while she is already a multi millionaire at 36 (MASSIVE BOOM).

My parents have always stressed the importance of school / studies. Both of us are engineers. All it takes is a single generation to reverse a family's fortunes.....

Could you give us a gist of the barriers to success you are talking about?

[ChrisLansing]

fitzgeralday,

I'm a white male working a blue collar job in a somewhat upper class town.   I see successful black families in town.  They are living in nice houses, driving nice cars, and their kids are doing well in school.   

So, it appears that at least some African-American people are living the middle/upper middle class life.   It also appears that they are living much as other middle class people, with "fancypants" cars,  showy homes, and probably lots of credit card debt.     I can't be sure, but they seem to be keeping up appearances so I'm guessing they are living like other "well to do" people - living on borrowed money.  They'll retire old. if ever.   

I don't know how what the solution is for closing the income gap between the races but I think it's more important to concentrate on your personal finance situation than to worry about where you rank compared to others.   

[Letj]

I am an upper middle class black immigrant so my experience may not be typical. I came from an enterprising financially conservative background and the value of studying hard and becoming successful was drilled in me from childhood. I attained advanced degrees in finance and accounting and while still working in Corporate America, I launched a successful rental real estate company. I am completely financially independent but plan to work for the next five years. The key to my success was my deep ambition, hard work, good credit scores and a successful marriage. Even so, I have to say that success for minorities in America is very elusive, especially in business. They often lack the connection and market/platform from which to launch. I live in a so called upper class community and I see everyday how class and race intersect to create privilege. Most blacks will never have access to the jobs, clients and connections to launch a successful business or career. Let's take real estate for example. The vast  majority of black real estate agents I know cannot get the opportunities to sell high end real estate. Take a look at any Estate and Homes catalog and you'll get the picture.

I think financial success for people of color in this country is especially difficult if you come from a poor family with limited education and live your life mostly in communities encased in poverty.  Poor minorities are so cut off and isolated living almost in an apartheid state that they often don't see examples of much success.  Also African Americans have such a deep distrust and in some cases fear of white America that it can handicap them psychologically making it difficult to seek out opportunities they see as unattainable.

My experience as a black immigrant couldn't be more different. I grew up a community that was very socially and economically diverse. I saw the poor, the strivers and the successful and it was clear to  me who I wanted to emulate. Most black Americans don't see a lot of that except the successful rap artist or basketball player on tv. We also cannot ignore the profound impact that the media's portrayal of black people have on blacks and whites alike. I have a great deal of scorn for the American media and I believe they bear a lot of responsibility for the entrenched and often unconscious bias against minorities, especially blacks. A white kid growing up in America generally gets his view of blacks from the media. If every time you see blacks it's a mug shot or a rapper or basket ball player, it would be very natural to view blacks through this prism. It just the way the psyche works. It's exactly why marketers use the media to sell their product and to keep reinforcing why you should buy their products and guess what it results in more sales. It's the power of suggestion; frankly it's exploiting neuroscience. The media portrayal of black people would have the same effect and this resulting bias makes it more difficult for blacks to succeed in this country.  The corporate prison system is also another factor and I can go on forever on how this unique American approach to crime and punishment only serves to further marginalize minorities.

[blackomen]

I'm Chinese..  our culture has a tradition of saving..  it's said that the average family in China saves around 50% of his take-home pay, something I still have yet to achieve.

But there are places where we're less Mustachian than Western culture.  Most notably, the notion of mianzi, 面子 (aka face.)  There's an implicit expectation that once we become wealthy, we show it off to others.  This comes in the form of buying nicer cars, nicer houses, fancier clothing, etc. 

Chinese culture also expects that a man should own a house before he gets married.  If you live in most parts of the US, this is no big deal and probably a wiser financial decision than renting.  But in much of China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong, median housing prices are substantially higher relative to median salaries..  the ratio of income to housing price is probably comparable to places like NYC.

And don't forget the work ethic and stereotypical nose to the grindstone attitude towards higher education that we're famous for, at least in the US.  Record numbers of Chinese kids are scoring full ride scholarships to Ivy League schools like Harvard and Yale which likely means high paying jobs upon graduation and a potential to FI at a very early age, if played out correctly.  Unfortunately, I have yet to see a record number of Chinese go the FIRE route.

I feel as a whole, the Chinese have the potential to pursure FIRE en masse, but very few do so, except the ones like me who don't mind taking a borderline psychopathic disregard for the norms of our culture engrained at a very early age.  Perhaps it's my calling to set a new trend from here on out..

As for my family's wealth..  my mother's family had "old money" from the Qing dynasty but lost it all in the Cultural Revolution after the Communists took over.

[bogart]

I'm white, but have recently run across some interesting articles relevant to this topic, perhaps especially among Mustachians who emphasize wealth through real estate.  See e.g. this, from the Atlantic:  http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/the-racist-housing-policy-that-made-your-neighborhood/371439/ on how federal policy shaped segregated housing. 

I can't now remember the speaker, but I attended an interesting talk where I work (a university) a few years back, where the speaker basically documented the extent to which the wealth gap between black and white Americans is vastly larger than the income gap.  Of course this is hardly surprising, given what we know about the value of time to savings, but it was interesting to see the actual data.  If I can dig up (or recall) more info., I'll post it.

[fitzgeralday]

I didn't expect this many responses and appreciate the dialogue :)

Fitzheralday, I'm glad you are here, and I look forward to following this thread.  Full disclosure:  I am white, LOL.  One thing I like about something like an investment with Vanguard is that it works the same for people of all ages, genders, ethnicities, etc.

I agree 2527, that Vanguard's don't directly discriminate - provided that an individual is knowledgeable that this option exists.  Financial education is such a crucial component to wealth building, for some anything beyond a basic savings account (if that) is a foreign concept.

I feel as a whole, the Chinese have the potential to pursure FIRE en masse, but very few do so, except the ones like me who don't mind taking a borderline psychopathic disregard for the norms of our culture engrained at a very early age.  Perhaps it's my calling to set a new trend from here on out..

blackomen, I think this is another angle to the wealth building disparity argument - overcoming the cultural norm about finances as well as the pursuit towards a reality that quite possibly never before existed... 

I think financial success for people of color in this country is especially difficult if you come from a poor family with limited education and live your life mostly in communities encased in poverty.  Poor minorities are so cut off and isolated living almost in an apartheid state that they often don't see examples of much success.  Also African Americans have such a deep distrust and in some cases fear of white America that it can handicap them psychologically making it difficult to seek out opportunities they see as unattainable.

Letj, belonging to a network with access to resources and opportunities is so important, as this allows an individual to not have to "start from scratch" so to speak - which can greatly increase the rate at which wealth can be generated.  I have also witnessed the handicap that you mentioned, and was introduced to the concept of 'Stereotype Threat' while in graduate school.  Basically, it's the experience of anxiety when an individual has the potential to conform to a negative stereotype about their group.  This feeling of anxiety can be paralyzing for some, and may prevent even attempting opportunities that would be beneficial.   

I don't know how what the solution is for closing the income gap between the races but I think it's more important to concentrate on your personal finance situation than to worry about where you rank compared to others.   

Thanks for sharing ChrisLansin, and while my current financial situation is a-ok I still see an issue that there is such a profound disparity - especially if racial equality exists.  I'm analytical by nature, and like to understand the 'why' behind things...and this happens to be one of those things.  I don't know what the solution is either honestly, but appreciate engaging in conversations that might lend to one.

All it takes is a single generation to reverse a family's fortunes.....

Could you give us a gist of the barriers to success you are talking about?

You're right legacyoneup, all it takes is a single generation....and I hope to be a part of that generation for my family ;)  One of the barriers I was eluding to is access to home ownership.  While home ownership can be used to generate wealth, this opportunity was historically denied to some groups based on their racial/ethnic background.  For example, the Post WWII GI Bill was one vehicle WWII vets used to attain middle class status, including access to no money down home loans, money for college tuition, job training and placement, unemployment benefits, and others.  These benefits were often denied to Black war vets however, where in southern states the bill was subject to Jim Crow standards, among other things... 

but many, many wealthy white people came from poor families.

I have always looked at this in waves. Rich folks...eventually poor kids. Poor folks work harder to be rich. If it's handed to you then you don't respect it.

My point I guess is that poorer people of all races should look to models of success from people of all backgrounds.
   

   
DollarBill & rob in cal - agreed on both fronts, part of the reason why I hang out around these parts.  And DollarBill, glad that you didn't allow your white guilt to keep you away ;)

I think a big part of it comes down to education, although I know plenty of "Intelligent" people living paycheck to paycheck. Maybe part of it is to give them good role models that let them know what they are truly capable of.

trailrated - cosign!

You all have given me a lot to think about, I'll be back with more later :)  Let's keep the convo going!

[hernandz]

Quite an interesting report in that link.  I look at my own experience and think how am I typical, how am I different?  TA-nahesi Coates has an article in The Atlantic about contract houses in Chicago, and I shiver to think how blatant the stealing was organized to cheat hard working people who believed in the American Dream. Our family has mostly paler skins, but varying levels of accents. Did my own folks have to run a gauntlet of unscrupulous real estate pros to own their home?  It was a 3 family brownstone back in the days of scary Brooklyn, well before the gentrifiers.  They were landlords to one family tenant (sister and brother-in-law at reduced rent and one non family tenant to help pay the mortgage.  They were each 1st generation college graduates, and became civil servants, as many in my family did even without college degrees.  Get a good Government job, work hard, get a pension, was the financial message I remember the most. It was a big step up from the factory sewing jobs my grandparents had.

My mother educated herself about money, but it was hard to leave behind the Christmas club mentality.  I believe she was the first in our family to purchase stocks, and it was the original Ma Bell.  The family had limited experience buying US savings bonds and it was more the patriotic impulse than a wealth building step.  The mustachian impulses in our family run towards frugality, but not towards a serious plan to FIRE.  Mom dared to spend money on experiences, and we traveled widely, but with an eye to authentic, budget traveling.  Camping, national parks, public transit, paradores, museums. 

All this to say that I'm feeling my way to FI in a way that grows out of those experiences.  Some is cultural and not quite MMM's path, some is.  I think a lot for us is more class-based, and for mom and I, more gender-based.  We aren't inclined to think BIG for ourselves, when it comes to money, and our closest role models weren't either.  It takes time and a bit of chutzpah to model yourself on "rich" guys, and the whole poor dad thing does resonate.  As we look around to FI, my mom and I really embraced investment clubs as a way to avoid financial "advisors" bamboozling us out of our hard earned money. The camaraderie of our club as we self educate has been priceless' and we are pleased that in NYC, there are plenty of clubs with minorities.  At the national level, the investment club model is much less diversified and skews older with more traditional ideas regarding retirement

[legacyoneup]

You're right legacyoneup, all it takes is a single generation....and I hope to be a part of that generation for my family ;)  One of the barriers I was eluding to is access to home ownership.  While home ownership can be used to generate wealth, this opportunity was historically denied to some groups based on their racial/ethnic background.  For example, the Post WWII GI Bill was one vehicle WWII vets used to attain middle class status, including access to no money down home loans, money for college tuition, job training and placement, unemployment benefits, and others.  These benefits were often denied to Black war vets however, where in southern states the bill was subject to Jim Crow standards, among other things...

I wouldn't agree with the home ownership point. College tuition, job training and placement opportunities being denied was wrong.

Education is the key to unlocking wealth. If the scholastic performance of African American and Hispanic communities is improving then it is only a matter of time before these groups do well. If they are not doing well in school, they might end up marginalised. Since we are talking about really large groups ( african american and hispanic communities), the transformation of these groups has to come from within....

As students, our role models in Indian schools were Marie Curie, Einstein, Copernicus, Mendeleev, Galileo, Pasteur and so on. We would read about the nobel prize laureates in our free time (quizzing is big in India). The focus on science and math is often interest in the subject that comes from reading about these people; not our parents prodding us. There is some dumb rote learning as well like the spelling bee - quite a few indian-american winners.

[MrsPete]

In the spirit of full disclosure, I am white, but in my opinion the beginning, middle and end of this thing is EDUCATION. 

I'm a high school teacher in a school that's roughly 2/3 white, 1/3 black, and the other minorities are so small in number as to make up less than 5%.  We're also a Title 1 school, which means we're a poor school -- a large percentage of our students are on free lunch, etc.  Things I have seen consistently over the years -- this isn't anything official I'm reading from a list; rather, it's just my own observation:

- Black students are absent more often, are suspended from school more often, and are more likely to drop out of school.  The upshot:  They're in the classroom less, and there's just no way that can be construed as anything but bad! 
- Black students tend to choose the lower-track classes (i.e., basic algebra instead of Calculus; general Biology instead of Advanced Placement Biology).  Thus, they're setting themselves up for the easiest road to graduation -- not the classes that will challenge them and prepare them for college classes. 
- Black students tend to read less, complete their homework less often, and have lower grades.  It appears that they care less about their academics.  However, they also tend to take our excellent vocational classes (auto mechanics, electrical trades, cosmetology, culinary skills, nursing, welding, etc.) in smaller numbers -- for a student who wants to go straight to work, you can't beat those classes! 
- Black or white, boys seem to care less about their academics, but of all our students, the black boys seem to care least /put in the least effort; black girls are head and shoulders ahead of them in this respect. 

Don't get me wrong: Teachers are not okay with these things! We push all students to do their best, but I can only believe that many of these minority students are getting the message at home that school doesn't matter (or perhaps the message is, This is not something for us).  I remember one particularly blatant example from a few years ago:  I'd called home about some bad behavior in my classroom, and the student's mother asked, "Are you white?"  When I answered in the affirmative, she said, "Oh, well, that explains it.  I've told him never to listen to white people." I'm sure that's an atypical, extreme situation, but how's a teacher supposed to work with that student when the kid's mother has told him -- without ever meeting me -- that I'm not to be trusted, that information I provide is suspect?  That poor kid was set up to fail! 

And certainly some of our black kids are doing well -- having been in the classroom more than two decades, I could list many, many black students who've done well in my class and others and who've gone on to do well in the world.  However, I have definitely noticed that they're less accepted by their black peers.  Students should not have to choose between social acceptance and an education.  I'm thinking of a black girl who's in my class right now:  She loves to read, even spends one period a day as an assistant in the library.  More than once I've heard other students tease her about her ever-present stack of books.  She is a strong girl who takes it as a joke, but not all students can do that.     

In closing, while I am certain that what you're saying is absolutely true -- a huge percentage of black Americans are "behind" financially -- I don't agree with the article's suggestions:  Starting a trust fund so every child has some money won't work.  It'll just allow young adults to blow some money, and then it'll be gone.  I don't agree with putting more money into Social Security, which is already a failing system.  Instead, I say the answer is to work on getting black students (and a whole lot of white students too) to value the EDUCATION that is provided for them already!  It's like that old saying: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day; teach a man to fish and he eats for life. 

[The knitter]

Don't get me wrong: Teachers are not okay with these things! We push all students to do their best, but I can only believe that many of these minority students are getting the message at home that school doesn't matter (or perhaps the message is, This is not something for us).  I remember one particularly blatant example from a few years ago:  I'd called home about some bad behavior in my classroom, and the student's mother asked, "Are you white?"  When I answered in the affirmative, she said, "Oh, well, that explains it.  I've told him never to listen to white people." I'm sure that's an atypical, extreme situation, but how's a teacher supposed to work with that student when the kid's mother has told him -- without ever meeting me -- that I'm not to be trusted, that information I provide is suspect?  That poor kid was set up to fail! 

This is a societal chicken and egg conundrum. That mom is not helping her son. Yet based on her experiences - which most likely involved pointed racism - she is giving him advice that makes sense from her perspective.

How do you end that cycle?

[ak907]

This is a societal chicken and egg conundrum. That mom is not helping her son. Yet based on her experiences - which most likely involved pointed racism - she is giving him advice that makes sense from her perspective.

How do you end that cycle?

I think possibly the the best hope is people like u/fitzgeralday shouting from the rooftops about what works, and how important financial literacy is. But it certainly is a massive and probably slow culture change to induce.

[tmac]

Don't get me wrong: Teachers are not okay with these things! We push all students to do their best, but I can only believe that many of these minority students are getting the message at home that school doesn't matter (or perhaps the message is, This is not something for us).  I remember one particularly blatant example from a few years ago:  I'd called home about some bad behavior in my classroom, and the student's mother asked, "Are you white?"  When I answered in the affirmative, she said, "Oh, well, that explains it.  I've told him never to listen to white people." I'm sure that's an atypical, extreme situation, but how's a teacher supposed to work with that student when the kid's mother has told him -- without ever meeting me -- that I'm not to be trusted, that information I provide is suspect?  That poor kid was set up to fail! 

This is a societal chicken and egg conundrum. That mom is not helping her son. Yet based on her experiences - which most likely involved pointed racism - she is giving him advice that makes sense from her perspective.

How do you end that cycle?

This reminds me of a story my grandmother told me. It was back in the 1940s. They lived in a poor neighborhood, but closer to middle class themselves. Most of their immediate neighbors were of a mixed ethnic group specific to the area -- dark brown skin and blue eyes. My grandmother worked full-time, so a neighboring woman was hired to help with the household chores. They would work together on the weekends, and their children would play. At the end of play time, my grandmother would tell all the children to work together to tidy up. Her neighbor would contradict her and say, no, her own child should do all of the cleaning. The conflict was that my grandmother wanted her children to do their own work and understand that everyone was the same. Her neighbor's goal was to teach her child that life includes doing work for white people, and the sooner she learns to do it cheerfully, the better. They were never able to resolve it and my grandmother had to stop asking her to come. She just couldn't allow her own children to learn that horrible lesson. It was one of the experiences in her life that drove her to work in the Civil Rights movement years later.

Thanks so much for this thread. Important and interesting topic.

[legacyoneup]

" in my opinion the beginning, middle and end of this thing is EDUCATION. "

This. I'm not convinced about barriers to success that you are talking about. You think its tough for your group here, try slugging it out in the third world. The population densities in India and China are much higher; the struggle for resources more intense. There is no social security and if you can't feed your kid, he/she will starve.

Asian Americans recognize this which is probably why they punch well above their weight in academics in the US. From what I've heard, due to quotas for other groups ( affirmative action), asian students with the lowest scores who get admission often have far higher scores than the students of other groups who also got admission. Do we call this a "barrier to success" for asians?? nope. We take it in our stride and try to work around it.

The world is changing and so is the nature of work. Low end jobs will continue to be phased out. Kids who fare poorly in academics might survive but will not thrive.

[fitzgeralday]

Thanks everyone for sharing!  My experiences mirror some of those shared by other posters: parents grew up poor but managed to attain middle class status (mom through putting herself through college and earning her CPA license, dad by working as a technician) and eventually moved out to the burbs.  As a result, I was able to grow up in a middle class suburb with a SAHM (mom decided to quit her full time when my sister was born, and continued to do accounting work out of our home), and experienced things like Disney world, summer camps, reading time at the library, etc.  My upbringing exposed me to opportunities that shaped my ambitions, and ultimate pursuit of higher education and many of the goals that I am working towards now, and for that I am grateful.  It wasn't until adulthood, however, that I began to understand the reality of my parent's financial situation.  While they had attained aspects of the 'American Dream' in terms of a house, jobs, vacations, etc., what they had not built was a financial legacy that could be passed down and that would serve as a platform for building generational wealth.  I did not know, at the time, that vacations were financed by credit cards, or that they did not own their home.  I think a large part of this stemmed from my dad, the primary bread winner, who believed that he was entitled to things now as an adult that he was denied as a child due to his parent's economic status.  I remember vividly as a senior in high school asking my mom about money that they had for me to go to college, and was surprised when she told me that there was none.  I naively thought that all parents had money set aside for their children's education (because this is what TV taught me), but quickly learned that this was not the case.  Thankfully, I was a smart kid and was able to receive scholarships to help fund my education, but that conversation was the start of my desire to better understand the world of personal finances.  I have made my fair share of mistakes (credit cards in college being one of them...smh), but am now focused on financial independence (to the point of being a tad extreme) and being able to contribute to wealth building for future generations.   For example, I don't have any children but have 6 nieces and nephews and plan to stash money aside for them that they will have access to upon adulthood to help pay for college or buy their first home.  One area that has worked for me thus far in achieving this goal is investing in real estate, and while I now consider the Midwest my home I did invest in property before my move in an area that is appreciating and that provides me with rental income.  One day, I hope that my entire family is in a position financially for us to invest in real estate together...but until that day happens, I'm fine with being the trailblazer that can show them it is possible :)

I will admit that it has been challenging to build my knowledge in this area, as conversations about money were not commonplace in my home.  Much of the knowledge that I gained was through trial and error, and eventually I learned what works for me and the goals that I have.  It has also been difficult to identify a community of people who share my financial goals, and from who I can gain support.  Despite my income level (and the fact that I strongly believe in having multiple streams of income, and have engaged in side hustles for years now), I'm ok with doing things that may make me appear to be "poor" - like buying a beater (but perfectly fine mechanically) Toyota Tercel stick shift that I taught myself to drive with the intent to sell my gas guzzling SUV (I totaled that car, but so miss those less than $30 fillups at the gas tank...).  Also, when I bought my first home I took on housemates as extra income as I did not need three bedrooms and was willing to sacrifice privacy for the sake of my financial bottom line.  This home is currently fully rented, and I now have been blessed with a higher income position in a laid back office setting where dressing up is not the norm - thus I don't need to spend a bunch of money on fancy clothes, nor would they care if they saw me driving another beater ;)  I've also opted to have housemates again and drastically live under budget until I'm ready to buy another home - preferably in cash, at which point I plan on taking on another housemate.  All of these lessons I've had to learn through my own experiences, as I don't yet have anyone in my life (outside of the fabulous people I read about online) who is willing to live the lifestyle that I choose to

I agree that education is a big part of the solution to closing the racial wealth gap, both in the traditional academic sense and when it comes to finances specifically.  That and a willingness to go against the grain, which can be hard for groups that typically identify as communal to do.  I admit that it can be socially isolating as a mustachian of color, but I take it in stride, as the sacrifice is so totally worth it.  (Like...who can I geek out to when I purchase a perfectly fine used printer from craigslist for $10 instead of paying $50 at Target for a new one...)  I also want my life to serve as motivation to others that they too can do it.  I don't have a trust fund, didn't make that much at first (...though that's starting to change...), but was willing to work my buns off to free myself from the bondage of debt and it worked!  Some people may have never met someone who is completely debt free, and may resign themselves to think that we all have to live with some level of debt.  I want to be the example that this does not have to be, but this starts with me and the decisions that I choose to make.     

I also think that a distinction needs to be made about being rich vs wealthy, and perhaps this is a topic for another thread but I feel like less in known about truly gaining wealth as opposed to acquiring riches...*begins to stroke invisible pondering beard*

Let's keep this convo going!

[fitzgeralday]

Quite an interesting report in that link.  I look at my own experience and think how am I typical, how am I different?  TA-nahesi Coates has an article in The Atlantic about contract houses in Chicago, and I shiver to think how blatant the stealing was organized to cheat hard working people who believed in the American Dream. Our family has mostly paler skins, but varying levels of accents. Did my own folks have to run a gauntlet of unscrupulous real estate pros to own their home?  It was a 3 family brownstone back in the days of scary Brooklyn, well before the gentrifiers.  They were landlords to one family tenant (sister and brother-in-law at reduced rent and one non family tenant to help pay the mortgage.  They were each 1st generation college graduates, and became civil servants, as many in my family did even without college degrees.  Get a good Government job, work hard, get a pension, was the financial message I remember the most. It was a big step up from the factory sewing jobs my grandparents had.

My mother educated herself about money, but it was hard to leave behind the Christmas club mentality.  I believe she was the first in our family to purchase stocks, and it was the original Ma Bell.  The family had limited experience buying US savings bonds and it was more the patriotic impulse than a wealth building step.  The mustachian impulses in our family run towards frugality, but not towards a serious plan to FIRE.  Mom dared to spend money on experiences, and we traveled widely, but with an eye to authentic, budget traveling.  Camping, national parks, public transit, paradores, museums. 

All this to say that I'm feeling my way to FI in a way that grows out of those experiences.  Some is cultural and not quite MMM's path, some is.  I think a lot for us is more class-based, and for mom and I, more gender-based.  We aren't inclined to think BIG for ourselves, when it comes to money, and our closest role models weren't either.  It takes time and a bit of chutzpah to model yourself on "rich" guys, and the whole poor dad thing does resonate.  As we look around to FI, my mom and I really embraced investment clubs as a way to avoid financial "advisors" bamboozling us out of our hard earned money. The camaraderie of our club as we self educate has been priceless' and we are pleased that in NYC, there are plenty of clubs with minorities.  At the national level, the investment club model is much less diversified and skews older with more traditional ideas regarding retirement

It's interesting that you mentioned physical appearance early on in your post, as this makes me think of a great uncle that I had (grandfather's brother) who was biracial but as an adult would pass for Cuban (and even went as far as to change his name) as this heightened his chances for employment when opportunities were limited for Black men.  And I like your recommendation about investment clubs....(off to look for meetups in my area...)

[fitzgeralday]

In the spirit of full disclosure, I am white, but in my opinion the beginning, middle and end of this thing is EDUCATION. 

I'm a high school teacher in a school that's roughly 2/3 white, 1/3 black, and the other minorities are so small in number as to make up less than 5%.  We're also a Title 1 school, which means we're a poor school -- a large percentage of our students are on free lunch, etc.  Things I have seen consistently over the years -- this isn't anything official I'm reading from a list; rather, it's just my own observation:

- Black students are absent more often, are suspended from school more often, and are more likely to drop out of school.  The upshot:  They're in the classroom less, and there's just no way that can be construed as anything but bad! 
- Black students tend to choose the lower-track classes (i.e., basic algebra instead of Calculus; general Biology instead of Advanced Placement Biology).  Thus, they're setting themselves up for the easiest road to graduation -- not the classes that will challenge them and prepare them for college classes. 
- Black students tend to read less, complete their homework less often, and have lower grades.  It appears that they care less about their academics.  However, they also tend to take our excellent vocational classes (auto mechanics, electrical trades, cosmetology, culinary skills, nursing, welding, etc.) in smaller numbers -- for a student who wants to go straight to work, you can't beat those classes! 
- Black or white, boys seem to care less about their academics, but of all our students, the black boys seem to care least /put in the least effort; black girls are head and shoulders ahead of them in this respect. 

Don't get me wrong: Teachers are not okay with these things! We push all students to do their best, but I can only believe that many of these minority students are getting the message at home that school doesn't matter (or perhaps the message is, This is not something for us).  I remember one particularly blatant example from a few years ago:  I'd called home about some bad behavior in my classroom, and the student's mother asked, "Are you white?"  When I answered in the affirmative, she said, "Oh, well, that explains it.  I've told him never to listen to white people." I'm sure that's an atypical, extreme situation, but how's a teacher supposed to work with that student when the kid's mother has told him -- without ever meeting me -- that I'm not to be trusted, that information I provide is suspect?  That poor kid was set up to fail! 

And certainly some of our black kids are doing well -- having been in the classroom more than two decades, I could list many, many black students who've done well in my class and others and who've gone on to do well in the world.  However, I have definitely noticed that they're less accepted by their black peers.  Students should not have to choose between social acceptance and an education.  I'm thinking of a black girl who's in my class right now:  She loves to read, even spends one period a day as an assistant in the library.  More than once I've heard other students tease her about her ever-present stack of books.  She is a strong girl who takes it as a joke, but not all students can do that.     

In closing, while I am certain that what you're saying is absolutely true -- a huge percentage of black Americans are "behind" financially -- I don't agree with the article's suggestions:  Starting a trust fund so every child has some money won't work.  It'll just allow young adults to blow some money, and then it'll be gone.  I don't agree with putting more money into Social Security, which is already a failing system.  Instead, I say the answer is to work on getting black students (and a whole lot of white students too) to value the EDUCATION that is provided for them already!  It's like that old saying: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day; teach a man to fish and he eats for life. 

Thank you so much for sharing this!  I agree that education* is key, and have stated this previously, but how do we get students to value something that they may perceive as not guaranteeing financial stability.  In conversations that I've had some students are not interested in attending college as they associate college attendance with student loan debt - which is an understandable concern.  I have some student loan debt myself, but I would not be able to do the work that I do now (public health/policy research) without my degrees.  Now that isn't to say that everyone has to go to college, which is one of the reasons I appreciate an older MMM post about high earning jobs that do not require a degree, but having a basic understanding of future goals and how to effectively plan for them is so important.  I think our education system needs to be revamped, though, to train students for life success rather than just successful test completion.  And I agree about the social isolation part, as I have had that experience though I was able to join a community of brown and black women in college who like me had nerdy tendencies - which so helped :)

*There's more that could be said about the American education system teaching towards one style of learners, while other styles of learning are labeled as disruptive and may eventually develop a distrust and lack of respect for educational institutions....but I don't want to derail the topic too much ;)

[fitzgeralday]

This is a societal chicken and egg conundrum. That mom is not helping her son. Yet based on her experiences - which most likely involved pointed racism - she is giving him advice that makes sense from her perspective.

How do you end that cycle?

I think possibly the the best hope is people like u/fitzgeralday shouting from the rooftops about what works, and how important financial literacy is. But it certainly is a massive and probably slow culture change to induce.

I'm so with you about financial literacy, which reminds me of one of my side hustle experiences.  For about two years I worked part time at a hardware store as a tertiary source of income and to get discounts on my home renovation projects.  This store provided even its part time employees with benefits, including a 401K with a match and discounted stock.  I had several conversations with coworkers about starting an investing support group, whereby we would take advantage of the discounted stock purchase plan that was available to us and help educate one another on the process, with the eventual goal of becoming saavy stock market players.  Needless to say, as excited as I was about this idea it quickly crashed and burned.  Why?  Because what was considered side money for me, for some was their only source of limited income and was not something they were willing to gamble with on the purchase of stock.  There has to be a way to make financial literacy relevant to all groups, even for those who are basically doing the best they can with the little that they have and who would laugh at the idea of having any extra money at the end of the month to invest in other areas. 

[MooseOutFront]

My opinion, as an upper middle class white male (I know that's an auto-disqualified but I'll keep typing anyway), that lives in an urban environment but came from a rural one is that it is all about education in large cities.  It just sucks for a variety of reasons in large cities and it appears to be getting worse in relation to the schools in the suburbs.  It's some combination of bureaucracy, funding, and culture and I don't have any great answers other than I understand why people move their kids out of the large city ISD that I reside in.

[legacyoneup]

I agree that education* is key, and have stated this previously, but how do we get students to value something that they may perceive as not guaranteeing financial stability.  In conversations that I've had some students are not interested in attending college as they associate college attendance with student loan debt - which is an understandable concern.  I have some student loan debt myself, but I would not be able to do the work that I do now (public health/policy research) without my degrees.

You can give them your example. Your education has enabled you to reach for a better life. Be the change in your circle......

MrsPete was talking about performance in school. Poor performance in school has to be treated as unacceptable as it is the foundation for anything you learn in college or even trade school.
 
They don't need to go to college immediately. They could spend some time working a trade to figure out what they want to do while making some money and learning to be responsible / handling their finances / exploring the job prospects of the fields they are interested in.

[randymarsh]

This thread is interesting, but completely dominated by outsider perspective.

It's dominated by the demographic that visits this site.

[train_writer]

Interesting question.

I have experienced a bit of a 'token complex', thinking that I am not good enough or only hired because I am a slightly coloured woman (nice in the brochure, yes, i made the brochure!).

But, to be honest, I think in the Netherlands it matters more which school you were in; which people you get along with (and yes, that includes lots of white male pops! and could be viewed as a barrier.. I, for instance, don't share the humour of most of the old men that dominate my company, but I don't think that is only etnic, and i learned my wits).

I do think that in our country, having an Arabian complexion must be most difficult atm. And I can't tell from first experience how that must feel.

EDIT: my etnic back ground is 1/4 black, 1/4 indonesian, 1/2 frisian

[anisotropy]

This thread is interesting, but completely dominated by outsider perspective.

lol fine... i will share my exp, but i gotta read the whole tread first.

[anisotropy]

alright... quickly read the tread and noticed a common theme by many posters: education is the way out.

well.... i am not sure if it's that easy. i agree education has its perks, but often require a large invsetment in time and money, which many "poors" can not afford.  scholarships? sure, but there's "not enough" to go around.

being in the oil industry i've met and worked with people from all over the world and this is what i noticed:

while it's somewhat common to go from 15k/year to 150k/year between generations, (ie, poor parents but kids studied hard to become engineers, lawyers, chartered accountants, w/e), it's just as likely to go from 15k/year to 45k/year, even if the kids had the same education and same good grades. there's simply "not enough" high paying jobs for all the graduates. as the schools pump out more and more graduates year after year, i think we all know where this is headed.

some might argue that 45k is still a massive improvement from 15k, well.... that 45k/year is kinda close to the "poverty" line in an oil town. One might not starve, but would definitely feel poor making 45k/year and be hard pressed to save for retirement or college funds. so ya, in this case the family fortune effectively continues with no real improvement....

yes, the racial wealth gap is real, you can play by the rules and hope for the best, sometimes it might work, sometime it might not.

[train_writer]

I also don't totally agree with education being the source of equality or emancipation, certainly not anymore (i have a strong opinion on (generic) universities being on the verge of a collapse and education and learning changing dramatically in the next decade(s)).

But it helps on networking and building a certain attitude, unwritten rules of management and education institutions.

I have a bachelor of science and have learned 'nothing' in my study, but I learnt a lot, about the speak, the trends.. I learnt to learn, like, never look up to academics again but do show respect to experiences. And that allows one to wear a certain self esteem that is attractive to employers while you are young.

Only one out of a 1000s of thoughts on the topic, for sure.

[Zaga]

I am white, but many of my family have started marrying hispanics and blacks, so we're quickly becoming very colorful!

I see some large cultural differences with black family and friends.  One woman I worked with told me that her black friends and family actually make fun of her for working for a living in a professional job instead of working the system for all the benefits that she could.  I heard my black nephew declare once that when he needed money as an adult he would find a white woman to support him.  I have more examples, but you get the idea.  A cultural shift away from the idea of someone else giving you money is needed.

How can this happen?  I have no idea, but I sure wish it would happen faster!

[blackomen]

alright... quickly read the tread and noticed a common theme by many posters: education is the way out.

well.... i am not sure if it's that easy. i agree education has its perks, but often require a large invsetment in time and money, which many "poors" can not afford.  scholarships? sure, but there's "not enough" to go around.

being in the oil industry i've met and worked with people from all over the world and this is what i noticed:

while it's somewhat common to go from 15k/year to 150k/year between generations, (ie, poor parents but kids studied hard to become engineers, lawyers, chartered accountants, w/e), it's just as likely to go from 15k/year to 45k/year, even if the kids had the same education and same good grades. there's simply "not enough" high paying jobs for all the graduates. as the schools pump out more and more graduates year after year, i think we all know where this is headed.

some might argue that 45k is still a massive improvement from 15k, well.... that 45k/year is kinda close to the "poverty" line in an oil town. One might not starve, but would definitely feel poor making 45k/year and be hard pressed to save for retirement or college funds. so ya, in this case the family fortune effectively continues with no real improvement....

yes, the racial wealth gap is real, you can play by the rules and hope for the best, sometimes it might work, sometime it might not.

And from a Chinese perspective, the biggest impediment to living a Mustachian life IS our extreme obsession and fetish with higher education.  The opportunity costs of education beyond college are often astronomical.  First, you are not working which means less money to invest and compound over the next few decades.  Second, you're likely spending even more tuition in the process.  Sure, you may not need student loans because Chinese parents often pay their kids' graduate school tuition, but this is money that could have gone towards their retirement.  I honestly find it sickening when these parents empty their retirement accounts to send their kids to an overpriced school in the expectation that the kids will support them in their retirement because they themselves have nothing saved up.  And sometimes, even the mother quits her job and moves in with the child to cook and clean for him/her in grad school.

Back to the original topic, I think education still can be improved and reformed, especially at the K-12 level to broaden the opportunities available, especially to those from a more disadvantaged background.  It'll probably do society more good by better educating the average person than to make the few highly educated even more superior.

[anisotropy]

I know exactly what you mean blackomen (I am asian too).

[Ian]

All I'm going to say is that I'm amazed this thread has stayed civil and hope that it remains so.

[The_Dude]

Higher education may be a significant variable but it certainly isn't the only variable or even the important enough to overcome all others.

One only has to look at the college graduates since the great recession to know that a Bachelor's degree doesn't guarantee a middle class life.

[libertarian4321]

My wife is a mustachian of color.  We had a similar discussion about race and income a few days back based on the story about Google, where their was much wailing and gnashing of teeth because they thought they did not have enough blacks and Hispanics on their staff (and, for that matter, whites were underrepresented).  Google was clearly showing preference for Asians over Latinos, blacks, and whites.

Those Bastards!

Though it's possible that something other than "racism" is at play at Google and in the nation as a whole.

Maybe the value that people put on education has something to do with it?

My wife and her extended family are Chinese immigrants.  I can't think of one of them in her generation and younger (that went to school in the USA) that doesn't have a college degree.  They are doctors, engineers, scientists, and accountants.  The "black sheep" of the family, one of her cousins, is a mere HS History teacher with a mere master's in Education.  Seriously, I think they look down on him as a woeful underachiever and a stain on the family reputation, even though he's a really good guy, with a great family, who is doing just fine financially.

They are absolutely OBSESSED with education and working hard.  Frankly, to a sometimes unhealthy degree. 

But still, I can't help think that the effort they put in is somehow related to their success.

[fitzgeralday]

All I'm going to say is that I'm amazed this thread has stayed civil and hope that it remains so.

I completely agree and appreciate the civil and constructive convo thus far :)

[MooseOutFront]

When I say "education" I mean primary school. I think the wealth divide is happening long before college is a consideration.

[starguru]

Do you feel as though your racial/ethnic background has played a part , either positively or negatively, in your pursuit of FI?
In your experience, what do you believe the solution(s) to be for eliminating the racial wealth gap?

This is such an important and interesting topic Im sad to see it die out so soon.  I also wonder what the OPs thoughts are on the two questions she raised.

[ChrisLansing]

I don't know how what the solution is for closing the income gap between the races but I think it's more important to concentrate on your personal finance situation than to worry about where you rank compared to others.   

Thanks for sharing ChrisLansin, and while my current financial situation is a-ok I still see an issue that there is such a profound disparity - especially if racial equality exists.  I'm analytical by nature, and like to understand the 'why' behind things...and this happens to be one of those things.  I don't know what the solution is either honestly, but appreciate engaging in conversations that might lend to one.   

I agree the disparity is important and interesting.    I'd like to suggest that maybe looking at it as a racial issue causes false division of the races.    Poor whites may well have many of the same barriers to face.   The wrong background or wrong accent may well keep many whites from achieving, just as it does for many minorities.   

We are not often encouraged to think of ourselves as being in the same economic position as people of other races.   If Blacks or Latinos are held back we figure there must be race specific reasons; but why are so many whites left behind?     Some of the causes of economic disparity might be very general and applicable to a great many whites, (as well as minorities) though we often don't consider white poverty to be a problem.   We assume whites at the bottom face no barriers because most of the people at the top are white.   This may be a faulty assumption.   

This is not to discount the very real racism that exists, and certainly has to be one factor in the white/minority income gap.     (Being white, other whites feel free to express their racist sentiments to me, as though I must naturally agree with them, so I know there is a lot of racism out there.)   

Like you, I grew up in a home where financial discussion was rare.    My parents felt that topic was for "grown ups" and not something to share with children.     Entering adulthood with no knowledge of personal fiance I made every mistake possible, and a few new mistakes that no one had ever thought of before :-)   

As an aside, my wife is Asian, so I've seen where barriers exist and where barriers can be hurdled.   I've noted how "Asian" is a racial category in the dominant culture, but one that makes little sense to immigrant Asians.   

But I digress.  My main point is that if we can get to the root of income disparity, it may help poor whites as well as poor minorities because some of the causes may be common to all races.     

[electriceagle]

" in my opinion the beginning, middle and end of this thing is EDUCATION. "

Asian Americans recognize this which is probably why they punch well above their weight in academics in the US. From what I've heard, due to quotas for other groups ( affirmative action), asian students with the lowest scores who get admission often have far higher scores than the students of other groups who also got admission. Do we call this a "barrier to success" for asians?? nope. We take it in our stride and try to work around it.

(Many of) the Asians who you see in the United States represent the top 10% of all Asians. Having crossed the hurdle of immigration means that they are a self-selected group.

If you took the top 10% of Black people and gave them a chance to move to a country where they could make an order of magnitude more money than at home, everyone in that country would think that their habits in the area of education and finance were badass too.

[blackomen]

" in my opinion the beginning, middle and end of this thing is EDUCATION. "

Asian Americans recognize this which is probably why they punch well above their weight in academics in the US. From what I've heard, due to quotas for other groups ( affirmative action), asian students with the lowest scores who get admission often have far higher scores than the students of other groups who also got admission. Do we call this a "barrier to success" for asians?? nope. We take it in our stride and try to work around it.

(Many of) the Asians who you see in the United States represent the top 10% of all Asians. Having crossed the hurdle of immigration means that they are a self-selected group.

If you took the top 10% of Black people and gave them a chance to move to a country where they could make an order of magnitude more money than at home, everyone in that country would think that their habits in the area of education and finance were badass too.

I remember reading an article somewhere that the best educated ethnic group in the US are 1st generation immigrants from Nigeria..

Sent from my GT-N8013 using Tapatalk

[TrulyStashin]

Education is key, I agree.  But I think "education" is a broader concept that what children get in the classroom.  "Education" about finances and money management begins at home and in very subtle ways as children observe how their parents spend money, pay bills, save (or not).

I'm a middle-class white woman.  I have 3 kids, one of whom I "adopted" (informally) when he was 9 and we were living in an mostly black small city south of Richmond.  He's now 25, a veteran, fluent in Chinese and working on a master's degree in Chinese at Ohio State.  He does okay with money but is too spendy and has some debt.   But he's light years ahead of his mother.

Here's what he saw growing up: 

His mother didn't have a bank account (though she does now).  She cashed checks at Walmart and paid the hefty check cashing fee.
She paid her utility bills in cash, at Walmart, incurring another hefty service fee.
She had no savings.
She worked hard, but her jobs were unstable, and she often bounced from one to the next with no continuity.  That led to disruption in paychecks which led to bills not paid on time which led to the power being shut off.  Or eviction.
They moved four times in 8 years.
There was no discussion of the future or planning.  It was day-to-day survival mode.

Essentially, he had no map for understanding how to manage finances.   As we all know, our day-to-day habits are what make us successful (or not).  This is the education/ cultural barrier that he experienced.   As he became more involved with my family, and even lived with me for part of high school, he saw and absorbed a different way of living and that made all the difference for him.   I'm not sure how you break the cycle on any kind of large scale to impact a whole community.  But it helps to identify what's not working.

[norabird]

Glad to see someone else mentioned the Ta Nehisi Coates article! It's not only about the attitude of one particular group--it's about the systematic biases that have prevented African-American wealth accumulation via property and that simultaneously gutted black neighborhoods of tax dollars to have good schools and support. This issue to my mind isn't so much one of individual attitude as it is about the fallout of racist policy making at a systemic level.

There was another interesting article about education and income background from the NYTimes recently, about how able lower-income students drop out not for a lack of intelligence or not valuing education but from feeling overwhelmed, out of place and as if they don't belong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/magazine/who-gets-to-graduate.html

There are a lot of invisible barriers that have created the situation and which are much bigger than any one person's approach to money.

[TrulyStashin]

There are a lot of invisible barriers that have created the situation and which are much bigger than any one person's approach to money.

Amen.  We need to keep pointing them out so that the invisible become visible.

[fitzgeralday]

Wow - you guys (collectively, and gender-neutrally) are giving me so much LIFE with your comments, and are providing much food for thought :)

I agree the disparity is important and interesting.    I'd like to suggest that maybe looking at it as a racial issue causes false division of the races.    Poor whites may well have many of the same barriers to face.   The wrong background or wrong accent may well keep many whites from achieving, just as it does for many minorities.   
   

ChrisLansing, thank you for bringing up class differences, as this is also significant when in pursuit of building wealth.  Race and class can become so intertwined that it can become difficult to distinguish between the two.  While I still believe there are barriers that exist that are specific to race, that should not diminish attention being paid to promoting socioeconomic diversity and access to opportunities as well.  Here's a link to an interesting Huffington Post article on the topic of race vs. class, especially as it relates to higher education: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/17/race-vs-class-in-great-recession-america-barrier-to-opportunity_n_3452716.html

[fixer-upper]

Don't get me wrong: Teachers are not okay with these things! We push all students to do their best, but I can only believe that many of these minority students are getting the message at home that school doesn't matter (or perhaps the message is, This is not something for us).  I remember one particularly blatant example from a few years ago:  I'd called home about some bad behavior in my classroom, and the student's mother asked, "Are you white?"  When I answered in the affirmative, she said, "Oh, well, that explains it.  I've told him never to listen to white people." I'm sure that's an atypical, extreme situation, but how's a teacher supposed to work with that student when the kid's mother has told him -- without ever meeting me -- that I'm not to be trusted, that information I provide is suspect?  That poor kid was set up to fail! 

This is a societal chicken and egg conundrum. That mom is not helping her son. Yet based on her experiences - which most likely involved pointed racism - she is giving him advice that makes sense from her perspective.

How do you end that cycle?

IMHO, the best way to end the cycle is to let people be uncomfortable in poverty.  Letting people go hungry for a few days teaches them a lesson that can't be learned by handing them a prepaid card that they can use to buy junk food.

Should we stack them up like college kids in dorms rather than giving them a section 8 voucher for a house that many in the working class can't afford?  Should we make them perform some sort of labor for their benefits?

When being on the dole is more work than having a job, how many would start striving to succeed?

[anisotropy]

.............wha ?

[MrsPete]

When I say "education" I mean primary school. I think the wealth divide is happening long before college is a consideration.

Yes, this is my thought as well.  I teach high school, and I see LOTS of kids throwing away their chance at a basic education.  They see it as useless. 

I remember reading an article somewhere that the best educated ethnic group in the US are 1st generation immigrants from Nigeria..

A few years ago I taught three brothers who had JUST come from Africa.  I can't remember which part of Africa.  Talk about hard workers!  Highly motivated, quick to pick up on the language, and polite!  What wonderful boys they were. 

However, as someone else pointed out, these were people who chose to immigrate here.  They were people who could afford to make the move, etc.  Their family came here because they wanted their boys to have the opportunity to go to college, so they moved when the oldest was 16-ish.  I don't know where they are now, but I am sure all three of those boys -- well, they'd be adult men by now; that's one thing about being a teacher: in your memory, the kids are forever 15 or 16 years old -- are very successful. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/magazine/who-gets-to-graduate.html

Eh, I can't buy into this article's premise.  The girl did well in high school, moved on to the college of her choice, but she began to question herself when she failed a test in Statistics -- in spite of the fact she'd always been a good math student in high school.

Thinking back to my own college experience, I clearly remember sitting down with my first textbook, reading the first chapter, and saying, "Oh no.  I have no idea what I just read.  I came from a po-dunk little country high school, and I'm not prepared.  If I'm going to stay here, I'm going to have to step it up."  And I did.  My own daughter told me something similar -- after the fact -- she told me that she initially brought back low grades in two classes, and she said to herself, "Okay, time to start working on a college level."  Neither of us gave up. 

I'm thinking this girl's problems were not related to her race; rather, she was very average in needing to make the adjustment from high school learning to college learning. 

[norabird]

The article directly addresses that all students do indeed feel out of place--but the advantaged ones have the wherewithal to know underneath the setbacks that they do belong, a luxury of attitude that the disadvantaged students lack. It's kind of a difference in recovery rate to that feeling of being overwhelmed.

In January 2013, when Yeager analyzed the first-semester data, he saw the advantaged students’ results were exactly the same as they were every year. No matter which message they saw in the pre-orientation presentation, 90 percent of that group was on track. Similarly, the disadvantaged students in the control group, who saw the bland message about adjusting to Austin’s culture and weather, did the same as disadvantaged students usually did: 82 percent were on track. But the disadvantaged students who had experienced the belonging and mind-set messages did significantly better: 86 percent of them had completed 12 credits or more by Christmas. They had cut the gap between themselves and the advantaged students in half.

The success of the studies discussed seems pretty solid to me.