The most immoral thing you have seen/heard someone do to get/make money.

[sol]

Thanks. Never heard of it. Doesn't sound like my type of podcast. While I like to be reasonably prepared for emergencies I believe most survivalist types would laugh at me. The host is absolutely correct about taxation being theft at gunpoint. That's a simple fact, and if you doubt it's true just stop paying taxes. It may take a while but eventually men with guns will come to lock you in a cage and take your property, if you resist you will be killed.

I think you might be exaggerating just a tiny bit.  Technically, tax evasion isn't a capital offense.  They can lock you up for life, but not murder you for it.

[Erica/NWEdible]

TSP listener?

You have to be careful about how you use that acronym around here.  This is ostensibly a retirement forum, after all, and the TSP is the federal equivalent of a 401k plan, not a nutty podcast.

Hah! Thanks Sol, good point.

[thd7t]

Thanks. Never heard of it. Doesn't sound like my type of podcast. While I like to be reasonably prepared for emergencies I believe most survivalist types would laugh at me. The host is absolutely correct about taxation being theft at gunpoint. That's a simple fact, and if you doubt it's true just stop paying taxes. It may take a while but eventually men with guns will come to lock you in a cage and take your property, if you resist you will be killed.

So how about non-payment of taxes.  While I'm not suggesting that that includes the threat of violence, is it theft?  Would one be stealing services by evading taxes?

[Tick-Tock]

Slavery was (and still is in many parts of the world) one of the most horrific, immoral things a human can to do another human. As a native Virginian I'm ashamed and embarrassed by that portion of my state's past.  But let's not fall victim to the white-washing of history by implying the only immorality occurred in the US South.  Slavery occurred in some form in all of the colonies and for most into statehood.  Maryland didn't end slavery until 1864 (the year before the civil war/war between the states). West Virginia split from Virginia in 1863 as a slave-free state but allowed current 'owners' to keep their existing slaves.  New York didn't start banning slavery until 1799, but put into place such gradual grandfathering laws that you could legally own a slave until well into the 1840s. 

Then there was the whole supply of the slave trade.  It's absolutely true that most of the slaves were sold to plantations in the Caribbean and the US South, but many of the most notorious slave ships were built and owned by New England sea merchants (or retrofitted and harbored there).  Even after the supposed US slave-ship ban in 1808 shipyards in the north continued to build ships who's sole purpose was to transport the maximum amount of human cargo while evading US and British naval patrols.  Finally, there was the active and legal extradition of escaped slaves back to their 'owners' right up until the start of the war.  Even though slavery had been abolished in many states by the 1860s, the courts, the law and private bounty hunters still shipped slaves back - in part because they didn't want to disrupt the trade of cheap food and textiles coming from the south.

It was horrible, and I blame the south for the lion's share of the atrocities committed against other humans.  But there is too much blood on everyone's hands, from simple complicity to active participation.  Except maybe from Rhode Island. Rhode Islanders, you did a pretty darn good job.

The movie & musical "1776" has a powerful song, "Molasses to Rum," where the gentleman from South Carolina points out to John Adams that the Northerners aren't at all clean with regard to the slave trade.

[Mississippi Mudstache]

Oh and don't get me started on the bribes and offers of kick backs offered to look the other way. Fun times!

So how much dough did you rake in with that gig?

[Pigeon]

There was a woman in the news around here not too long ago who would let men rape her kids for money.

[cautiouspessimist]

Wow, some of these really have me going WTF. I can't say I've seen anything nearly as bad as most of what you all have mentioned.

[golden1]

Columbus is pretty much the worst person in the world, if you go by the suffering that his actions caused, the establishment of the atlantic slave trade and the decimation of the native american population.  The fact that we celebrate the holiday every year turns my stomach.

His motivation was pure profit:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

[Gone Fishing]

Probably not nearly as terrible as some of the things that go on in the world everyday, but I do regularly witness industry veterans stealing good business from and depositing bad business on rookies (which affects compensation), inside the company, with impunity.  Some might say its "just business", and maybe I am naive, but I find it very immoral when we are all supposed to be on the same "team".  Probably goes on all the time across most industries.  But the worst part is how these individuals talk about how dedicated they are to their church, and yet, somehow, this behavior doesn't strike them as immoral!  In some ways, it almost seems worse than the petty thief, because at least with a petty crook, there is no illusion/hipocrisy as to what is happening.

There have been more than a few accounts from forum members working for publicly traded companies that have been asked to cook the books.  The only problem is once the cooking starts, it has to continue indefiantly!  Outright internal corporate fraud is almost certainly way more common than most would believe due to the number of incidents that are concealed to prevent bad publicity.

[NoraLenderbee]

I believe theft with the threat of violence would have to be the most immoral way to get money.

Gee, I think murdering someone for money might be a teeny bit worse.

[GuitarStv]

I think that pretending that the society and land you live in just exists with no input from you, taking and taking until you're in a relatively comfortable position in life, then complaining about taxes has got to be up there with slavery.

[GetItRight]

I believe theft with the threat of violence would have to be the most immoral way to get money.

Gee, I think murdering someone for money might be a teeny bit worse.

That's how the violence part works. If you comply, it's extortion. If you don't, it's murder. They will take the money either way, though it seems government will go to the extreme of murder in all cases while private thieves are far more hesitant to use deadly force.

[MoneyCat]

An ex-girlfriend of mine used to pose as a Saturn vehicle purchaser to get free hot dogs at the Saturn dealership.

Yeah, I got nothing.

[forummm]

I believe theft with the threat of violence would have to be the most immoral way to get money.

Gee, I think murdering someone for money might be a teeny bit worse.

That's how the violence part works. If you comply, it's extortion. If you don't, it's murder. They will take the money either way, though it seems government will go to the extreme of murder in all cases while private thieves are far more hesitant to use deadly force.

This argument is very irritating and childish. If you want property rights, a national defense, a judicial system, law enforcement, an educated populace to promote economic growth and general welfare, clean water, clean air, roads, etc--all the stuff that makes your life possible, you pay in--in dollars created by the government. You are not required to pay. You are free to leave and go wherever else in the world you want to and not pay there. There's plenty of ocean or open land (Antarctica has quite a bit) or states like Somalia that don't have so many laws. The fact that you haven't done this indicates that the alternative to no taxes is worse.

Or were you looking for a government handout? Where the government does all this stuff on your behalf that you have already benefitted from, but you don't pay your share?

And no one in the US dies over tax evasion.

[Annamal]

There's plenty of ocean or open land (Antarctica has quite a bit)

Hey hands (and environmental damage) off Antarctica!

[GuitarStv]

There's plenty of ocean or open land (Antarctica has quite a bit)

Hey hands (and environmental damage) off Antarctica!

The Antarctic is claimed by a bunch of countries already.

[sol]

The Antarctic is claimed by a bunch of countries already.

All of whom are in violation of international treaty?

[Tabaxus]

The Antarctic is claimed by a bunch of countries already.

All of whom are in violation of international treaty?

They made the claims before the treaty.  The treaty basically puts all old claims on hold and prohibits any new claims.

[gimp]

This thread:

[nereo]

Columbus is pretty much the worst person in the world, if you go by the suffering that his actions caused, the establishment of the atlantic slave trade and the decimation of the native american population.  The fact that we celebrate the holiday every year turns my stomach.

His motivation was pure profit:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

Sorry, Columbus looks like a petty thief compared to Hernán Cortés.  By sheer military force and the cunning use of millitary alliances (which he frequently broke) he  decimated the Aztec empire, enslaved thousands, slaughtered thousands more - all for riches.  He gives Hitler a run for "worst human ever".

[NoraLenderbee]

I believe theft with the threat of violence would have to be the most immoral way to get money.

Gee, I think murdering someone for money might be a teeny bit worse.

That's how the violence part works. If you comply, it's extortion. If you don't, it's murder. They will take the money either way, though it seems government will go to the extreme of murder in all cases while private thieves are far more hesitant to use deadly force.

1. Getting paid to kill someone else--i.e., being a hit man--is immoral (and worse than robbery, in my opinion). Murder isn't done only as part of thievery.

2. You don't seem to recognize the difference between being robbed, but still alive, and being robbed and killed. They are not morally equivalent and there is a hell of a difference in practice.

[Jeremy E.]

Columbus is pretty much the worst person in the world, if you go by the suffering that his actions caused, the establishment of the atlantic slave trade and the decimation of the native american population.  The fact that we celebrate the holiday every year turns my stomach.

His motivation was pure profit:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

Sorry, Columbus looks like a petty thief compared to Hernán Cortés.  By sheer military force and the cunning use of millitary alliances (which he frequently broke) he  decimated the Aztec empire, enslaved thousands, slaughtered thousands more - all for riches.  He gives Hitler a run for "worst human ever".

To be fair, winners write the history books, so we don't really know a lot about whether or not there were other horrible humans that could take that title, maybe Alexander wasn't so great? maybe the Aztecs or another Native American people once conquered the entire continent and killed millions? But the diseases that killed off a MAJORITY of the Native Americans (albeit most of the diseases were brought to them accidentally) is definitely one of the biggest attrocities that I know of.

[music lover]

Golden rice has the potential to save hundreds of thousands of children from dying or blindness every single year, but Greenpeace and anti-GMO protesters ignore proven scientific evidence and have stonewalled its distribution with a campaign of anti-GMO lies.

[Jeremy E.]

Golden rice has the potential to save hundreds of thousands of children from dying or blindness every single year, but Greenpeace and anti-GMO protesters ignore proven scientific evidence and have stonewalled its distribution with a campaign of anti-GMO lies.

+1

[JoshuaSpodek]

Two pages in and no one has mentioned companies doing business with Nazis and other war profiteers? You don't have to worry about Godwin's law to answer a direct question.

I haven't researched it, but I believe IBM sold them calculating machines, De Beers sold them industrial diamonds, Rockefellers sold them oil, and more. Can anyone who knows more confirm or correct these examples or suggest others? Someone made money making mustard gas, Zykon B, Agent Orange, etc.

I finished listening to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History series on Gengis Khan. I'm not sure if his goal was just to make money, but his army slaughtered tens of millions of people and got a lot of wealth out of it (Gengis Khan, that is, not Dan Carlin).

[GetItRight]

Thanks. Never heard of it. Doesn't sound like my type of podcast. While I like to be reasonably prepared for emergencies I believe most survivalist types would laugh at me. The host is absolutely correct about taxation being theft at gunpoint. That's a simple fact, and if you doubt it's true just stop paying taxes. It may take a while but eventually men with guns will come to lock you in a cage and take your property, if you resist you will be killed.

So how about non-payment of taxes.  While I'm not suggesting that that includes the threat of violence, is it theft?  Would one be stealing services by evading taxes?

Not paying taxes (not paying the extortion money) is not theft. Clearly it doesn't include violence as all it required is inaction. Initiating violence requires action. It is not theft if there is some unchosen positive obligation, i.e. no agreement. If there was a free market on the services government monopolizes then some of those services would be provided to some (or all) people at a fair market price and hence any obligation for payment would be chosen and voluntary.

[GetItRight]

1. Getting paid to kill someone else--i.e., being a hit man--is immoral (and worse than robbery, in my opinion). Murder isn't done only as part of thievery.

2. You don't seem to recognize the difference between being robbed, but still alive, and being robbed and killed. They are not morally equivalent and there is a hell of a difference in practice.

Indeed. You presented three immoral actions. All are immoral and a violation of one's rights. All the actions you presented involve the initiation on force and are truly evil. How you rnak them doesn't matter, none are universally preferable behavior.

[GetItRight]

I believe theft with the threat of violence would have to be the most immoral way to get money.

Gee, I think murdering someone for money might be a teeny bit worse.

That's how the violence part works. If you comply, it's extortion. If you don't, it's murder. They will take the money either way, though it seems government will go to the extreme of murder in all cases while private thieves are far more hesitant to use deadly force.

This argument is very irritating and childish. If you want property rights, a national defense, a judicial system, law enforcement, an educated populace to promote economic growth and general welfare, clean water, clean air, roads, etc--all the stuff that makes your life possible, you pay in--in dollars created by the government. You are not required to pay. You are free to leave and go wherever else in the world you want to and not pay there. There's plenty of ocean or open land (Antarctica has quite a bit) or states like Somalia that don't have so many laws. The fact that you haven't done this indicates that the alternative to no taxes is worse.

Or were you looking for a government handout? Where the government does all this stuff on your behalf that you have already benefitted from, but you don't pay your share?

And no one in the US dies over tax evasion.

You have presented a very uneducated and childish argument. You presume that the current government monopoly (enforced at gunpoint) on the services you mentioned is the only way there can be defense, justice, enforcement of universally preferable behavior, education, clean environment, roads, etc... The government does a pretty terrible job at all of those things. As long as there is government in it's current form you ndon't have property rights, as your natural right to your most previous piece of property, yourself, is infringed.

As to nobody dying (being killed) for not paying taxes, go ahead and don't pay the extortion money. When they eventually come to take your property defend it with whatever force is necessary, because government protects your property rights... right? I suspect it would be an unpleasant end.

[scottish]

Can you show us another system that demonstrably works better than government?   This is a bit like Churchill's comment 'Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.'.

[Tabaxus]

GetItRight gets it wrong in yet another thread.

[Eric]

GetItRight gets it wrong in yet another thread.

Yeah, I'm surprised everyone hasn't learned to just ignore him and his boring "taxes are theft" schtick by now.

[GuitarStv]

As soon as an anarcho-libertarian starts throwing out their redefined terms like 'theft', 'natural-right', and 'murder' rational conversation is kinda out the window.  In this case, 'theft' is the price of taking roads, police, firefighters, and military protection for granted.  'Natural right' is skipping out on your debt.  'Murder' is something that has never ever happened for not paying taxes.  All are designed not to be well reasoned, or logically consistent but to convey strong emotion and disguise whining about being part of a society that has greatly benefitted them as some kind of noble cause.

[Cathy]

GetItRight's impassioned complaints about government are a welcome alternative viewpoint, regardless of whether we agree with them. The philosophical justification for taxation (if any) is really bound up in the more general topic of the justification for the state itself. The Rousseauian social contract has arguably become increasingly fictional in an era of increasing border controls and internationally-asserted state jurisdiction. It's no trifling matter to justify intellectually our complacent submission to government power. The refrain that "taxes are theft" may not be the most nuanced way to raise these issues, but neither has anybody provided a response that grapples with the underlying substantive issues. Even if government power is justifiable, it's not easy to explain the source of its legitimacy. Many philosophers have written treatises on this complex issue.

Remember that reading solely what you already agree with does not make for an interesting community compared to the exchange of a diverse array of viewpoints.

[southern granny]

Today some of those light skinned people are still trying to fly the symbolic flag of their forefather's sins in proud memory of those bygone times, as if they romanticized that particular brand of evil.

While true, and that's what I think when I see the confederate flag, many people that brandish that shit will say it's about state rights and small government and nothing about slavery. Some of them will argue that slavery had nothing to do with the civil war. Kind of sad.

What about the way the native american indians were treated?  They were ran off their lands, persecuted, murdered, starved, and  thousands died during the forced relocation march "trail of tears", all of this was done under the US flag.  Does that mean we should no longer fly old glory because native americans whose ancesters were treated so badly may be offended?  Every country has dark periods in their history but we can't erase the past.  Hopefully, we learn from it.

[Annamal]

The Rousseauian social contract has arguably become increasingly fictional in an era of increasing border controls and internationally-asserted state jurisdiction. It's no trifling matter to justify intellectually our complacent submission to government power. The refrain that "taxes are theft" may not be the most nuanced way to raise these issues, but neither has anybody provided a response that grapples with the underlying substantive issues. Even if government power is justifiable, it's not easy to explain the source of its legitimacy. Many philosophers have written treatises on this complex issue.

The problem with the whole "taxes are theft" argument is that it allows for no reasonable discussion after it has been expressed. It is a lousy starting point for any meaningful discussion (especially since it is possible to avoid taxes entirely by choosing not to participate in a society that imposes taxation).

[forummm]

The Rousseauian social contract has arguably become increasingly fictional in an era of increasing border controls and internationally-asserted state jurisdiction. It's no trifling matter to justify intellectually our complacent submission to government power. The refrain that "taxes are theft" may not be the most nuanced way to raise these issues, but neither has anybody provided a response that grapples with the underlying substantive issues. Even if government power is justifiable, it's not easy to explain the source of its legitimacy. Many philosophers have written treatises on this complex issue.

The problem with the whole "taxes are theft" argument is that it allows for no reasonable discussion after it has been expressed. It is a lousy starting point for any meaningful discussion (especially since it is possible to avoid taxes entirely by choosing not to participate in a society that imposes taxation).

Taxes are also optional. Just don't earn money or buy things or own taxable items. There's nothing to stop you from renting land and farming/hunting it yourself, and paying for the rent in crops or other services.

[scottish]

What about the way the native american indians were treated?

I think US society is more concerned about the treatment of blacks.   The confederate flag is viewed as a symbol of the past with all the negative connotations that go with it.   Perhaps a symbol that should be abandoned and left in the past, as is the national socialists swastika.

Up here, we're more concerned about the treatment of natives, possibly because we don't have the same history of slavery.   We're having a small crisis about the way native kids were taken from their families and forced to attend 'residential schools' where they were mistreated and generally abused, as recently as the the 1950's.

Who knows?   Perhaps in 50 years the stars and stripes will be reviled for the constant stream of military adventures around the world.  I hope not though, alot of good has come out of the US.

[devan 11]

TSP listener?

You have to be careful about how you use that acronym around here.  This is ostensibly a retirement forum, after all, and the TSP is the federal equivalent of a 401k plan, not a nutty podcast.

Hah! Thanks Sol, good point.

I snorted and spewed coffee over this one.

[devan 11]

  One instance that I witnessed was a grain elevator manager buying a programmable scale, then calibrating it to weigh low on gross weights and high on tare weights.  Farmers were getting ripped $10 for every load, but since it was barely in compliance, was legal.  Doesn't sound like much until count 200 to 300 trucks being processed in a day. I was threatened with firing and a beating if I said anything, and was a young worker that needed the job.
  Things had a way of evening out.  Some scale operators would occasionaly 'accidently' weigh truck drivers on the gross weight, buying their weight in grain and the proceeds went to the farmers. 

[forummm]

What about the way the native american indians were treated?

I think US society is more concerned about the treatment of blacks.   The confederate flag is viewed as a symbol of the past with all the negative connotations that go with it.   Perhaps a symbol that should be abandoned and left in the past, as is the national socialists swastika.

This is a good question. Both are bad. But I think the mistreatment of Native Americans is viewed as being long in the past.

I think the conquering of the lands that make up the US was viewed more as a one-time war. And war is viewed as a much more moral undertaking than slavery. And since that time there has been some formal recognition of the native tribes by the government. There are reservations for tribes, and tribes are given sovereignty. It's also much easier for a Native American to blend into white culture. Overall, the discrimination has been much, much less.

On the other hand, Africans were brought here for the explicit purpose of slavery. The slavery was incredibly brutal and dehumanizing. And it took place over the course of about 200 years. And then after the slavery, blacks have been continually discriminated against and taken an advantage of. So we're talking about ~350 years of mistreatment that continues today. After slavery there was sharecropping (like slavery but using economics and lack of education instead of whips and chains). Then Jim Crow. And now the criminal justice system. For about the last 300 years or so, segregation was legal and widespread. Now it's more of an economic and institutional racism that keeps blacks at a disadvantage. And it's not something they can escape easily by pretending to be white.

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

On a lighter note...

People going around to several different library branches, registering their children for summer reading programs under several different aliases, in an effort to collect extra prices.

[Annamal]

  One instance that I witnessed was a grain elevator manager buying a programmable scale, then calibrating it to weigh low on gross weights and high on tare weights.  Farmers were getting ripped $10 for every load, but since it was barely in compliance, was legal.  Doesn't sound like much until count 200 to 300 trucks being processed in a day. I was threatened with firing and a beating if I said anything, and was a young worker that needed the job.
  Things had a way of evening out.  Some scale operators would occasionaly 'accidently' weigh truck drivers on the gross weight, buying their weight in grain and the proceeds went to the farmers.

I'm pretty sure that the Carpenter's story in Canterbury Tales was about a miller who tampered with his scales so he could underpay for grain.

[nazar]

A man at my previous job did tax preparation as a side hustle and built a client base of coworkers in lower paid call handling positions.  One year, he processed returns, took the SSNs and bank account numbers he was trusted with and stole their refunds.  He disappeared before the first of his victims tried to find out what happened.  These people trusted him, and he exploited their limited financial knowledge, stealing from people that for the most part just make ends meet.

[TheBuddha]

Bernie Madoff

[NV Teacher]

Stealing from their elderly parents.  I hope they rot in hell.

[GetItRight]

The Rousseauian social contract has arguably become increasingly fictional in an era of increasing border controls and internationally-asserted state jurisdiction. It's no trifling matter to justify intellectually our complacent submission to government power. The refrain that "taxes are theft" may not be the most nuanced way to raise these issues, but neither has anybody provided a response that grapples with the underlying substantive issues. Even if government power is justifiable, it's not easy to explain the source of its legitimacy. Many philosophers have written treatises on this complex issue.

The problem with the whole "taxes are theft" argument is that it allows for no reasonable discussion after it has been expressed. It is a lousy starting point for any meaningful discussion (especially since it is possible to avoid taxes entirely by choosing not to participate in a society that imposes taxation).

Taxes are also optional. Just don't earn money or buy things or own taxable items. There's nothing to stop you from renting land and farming/hunting it yourself, and paying for the rent in crops or other services.

Actually there is something to stop you, government. Rent land and you're paying taxes on that land as the owner would not typically rent below what the government charges him annually for use of that land, much less any additional money owed annually on the purchase of that land.

You might be able to get away with farming on a small scale as not have any government violence come down on you, but don't dare sell any of what you grow and not pay the government the percent they demand. I am not aware of any place in the US that you can hunt without a license and not be risking government violence if you're caught. The "go somewhere else" argument is childish, essentially asserting that humans have no rights simply for existing, specifically no property rights. Compulsory income tax is slavery, as it's a presumption that the government owns the fruits of your labor, which means they own you. Simply for existing and providing some labor, good, or service in order to shelter and feed yourself the government will use any force necessary to take what portion they want, and allow you to keep the rest.

[forummm]

The Rousseauian social contract has arguably become increasingly fictional in an era of increasing border controls and internationally-asserted state jurisdiction. It's no trifling matter to justify intellectually our complacent submission to government power. The refrain that "taxes are theft" may not be the most nuanced way to raise these issues, but neither has anybody provided a response that grapples with the underlying substantive issues. Even if government power is justifiable, it's not easy to explain the source of its legitimacy. Many philosophers have written treatises on this complex issue.

The problem with the whole "taxes are theft" argument is that it allows for no reasonable discussion after it has been expressed. It is a lousy starting point for any meaningful discussion (especially since it is possible to avoid taxes entirely by choosing not to participate in a society that imposes taxation).

Taxes are also optional. Just don't earn money or buy things or own taxable items. There's nothing to stop you from renting land and farming/hunting it yourself, and paying for the rent in crops or other services.

Actually there is something to stop you, government. Rent land and you're paying taxes on that land as the owner would not typically rent below what the government charges him annually for use of that land, much less any additional money owed annually on the purchase of that land.

You might be able to get away with farming on a small scale as not have any government violence come down on you, but don't dare sell any of what you grow and not pay the government the percent they demand. I am not aware of any place in the US that you can hunt without a license and not be risking government violence if you're caught. The "go somewhere else" argument is childish, essentially asserting that humans have no rights simply for existing, specifically no property rights. Compulsory income tax is slavery, as it's a presumption that the government owns the fruits of your labor, which means they own you. Simply for existing and providing some labor, good, or service in order to shelter and feed yourself the government will use any force necessary to take what portion they want, and allow you to keep the rest.

I said *you* don't have to pay those taxes. Maybe the landlord does. But we were talking about you.

In reality, if you're on your private land, you can do what you want and avoid paying taxes for growing your own vegetables and eating the rabbits, etc. But your 'taxes are slavery' shtick is so charming I'm sure this won't dissuade you from repeating it.

[grantmeaname]

On a lighter note...

People going around to several different library branches, registering their children for summer reading programs under several different aliases, in an effort to collect extra prices.

That's nothing. Did you know that libraries are supported by TAXES? *clutch pearls, faint*

[forummm]

On a lighter note...

People going around to several different library branches, registering their children for summer reading programs under several different aliases, in an effort to collect extra prices.

That's nothing. Did you know that libraries are supported by TAXES? *clutch pearls, faint*

Book-learnin slavery too! Double slavery!

[Davids]

Now I don't feel so bad when on the rare occasion I go to a fast food restaurant and ask for a cup of water and instead fill it with a Diet Coke...