Author Topic: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff  (Read 4870 times)

joshuagraham_xyz

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The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« on: October 19, 2019, 05:30:29 PM »
I was reading this article which purports to say that folks want to continue to work - as opposed to FIRE or getting Guaranteed Income - because they want nicer stuff:

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/10/18/20919322/basic-income-freedom-dividend-andrew-yang-automation

Quote
Human desires keep evolving. It’d be relatively cheap to give everyone in the world a smartphone if that smartphone were a used Handspring Treo from 2002. But people don’t want Treos. They want iPhones. We want constantly improving consumer technology and are willing to work more to pay for it.

Hmm, would I continue to slave away because I want to have something that functionally the same but just "better"?  I DON'T THINK SO!  OK, I would be motivated to work more so that I could buy craft beer at $1.50 a bottle vs. whatever swill is sold for $0.75 a bottle, but that would only be an extra $66/mo.  I could also see eating well on $11/lb. Choice New York Strip / Ribeye rather than Hamburger Helper and ramen.  But gosh, at some point I look at purchases & experiences and say, "this expensive thing is not worth my having to continue to work more past the time of some FIRE date.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2019, 06:37:25 PM »
I'm kind of wired to like sets of things. For instance, I like all my pantry containers to match. Of course, they're actually recycled jars so I'm not actually spending money.... BUT I think the matching requirement is partly responsible for people wanting better stuff, as stupid as that sounds. People will break a bowl or two from a dinner set and buy a whole new set, just so everything matches. People will redecorate their whole living room if they need to replace a couch, just so everything matches. People will ditch a perfectly good dryer if they need to replace a washer, just so the two match. It's a thing, I'm sure of it!

Bloop Bloop

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2019, 07:39:01 PM »
Depends on the person I guess. I like nice tech things and every 2-3 years I buy a new phone and every 6 years I buy a new computer and I enjoy that spend. I'm also looking forward to my next watch and car purchase - the latter, second hand. I think if you amortise all the costs over time, factor in the business deductibility of everything on this list (bar the watch) then I still count as relatively frugal, but I think it's understandable that many people like "nice stuff" in an area where their tastes lie.

ctuser1

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2019, 08:44:23 PM »
When I was younger (yes, us older millenials are now at an age when we can say that), I used to think that I enjoy "things".

I don't! Really!

I enjoy freedom - to do anything, or nothing at all.
I enjoy options in life.

My definition of our lean-FI mark is around US$2MM is stash, calculated with an ultra conservative 2.5%SWR @ $50kUSD/year spending level. If stars align, this should be less than a decade away, possibly much less if markets have a run-up. If/when we do reach there, I doubt anything material will change for me. I expect the entire extent of the change to be in how I think, and feel!

I have enough "things". I don't really "need" any "thing"!! If I won a billion dollars in powerball tomorrow, I will probably just goose up our FI-stash to some unreasonable level with a fraction of that, and then try to figure out how to give the rest away.

Buying more things with good money seem such a wastage! Imagine the clutter!

Now, if you talk about experiences, then that can indeed be tempting!

Bloop Bloop

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2019, 02:14:46 AM »
Is there a hard line between a "thing" and an "experience"? I've had lots of great times in my car - track days, mountain runs, swapping cars with friends on road trips - and yet the car is a "thing". Likewise, buying a couple of gaming computers and setting up a LAN has given me lots of awesome nights in with friends and family - turning a thing into an experience.

js82

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2019, 08:37:10 AM »
Is there a hard line between a "thing" and an "experience"? I've had lots of great times in my car - track days, mountain runs, swapping cars with friends on road trips - and yet the car is a "thing". Likewise, buying a couple of gaming computers and setting up a LAN has given me lots of awesome nights in with friends and family - turning a thing into an experience.

To me, there isn't - or at least, not in terms of how I'd think about them when it comes to spending.  It all boils down to a question of "how much enjoyment/satisfaction/joy will this give me?"  In that context, it doesn't really matter whether the spending is on a sports car, a vacation, or a gaming system - it's about the value(in terms of enjoyment of life) you get from your spending, and your personal relative value of time versus money.

Being mindful about one's values, and how one chooses to spend one's money/time is the over-arching theme in either case.

undercover

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2019, 09:00:28 AM »
Is there a hard line between a "thing" and an "experience"? I've had lots of great times in my car - track days, mountain runs, swapping cars with friends on road trips - and yet the car is a "thing". Likewise, buying a couple of gaming computers and setting up a LAN has given me lots of awesome nights in with friends and family - turning a thing into an experience.

To me, there isn't - or at least, not in terms of how I'd think about them when it comes to spending.  It all boils down to a question of "how much enjoyment/satisfaction/joy will this give me?"  In that context, it doesn't really matter whether the spending is on a sports car, a vacation, or a gaming system - it's about the value(in terms of enjoyment of life) you get from your spending, and your personal relative value of time versus money.

Being mindful about one's values, and how one chooses to spend one's money/time is the over-arching theme in either case.

Right. The only things left to buy after you have all the things you want are experiences. Does that mean you value experiences more than things? Not really, it just means you have every "thing" you need already. Travel and minimalism are luxuries for the rich.

One would assume that after you can pay for all of the things and experiences you want then you'd want freedom, hence FIRE. But all freedom really means here is the ability to enjoy the things/experiences that your amount of money can support. If you take "freedom" too soon then you may find yourself in prison.

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Also, I wouldn't say it's out of the ordinary (even for this site) for people to work hard to have nicer stuff. This is something we've done since the beginning of our species and will continue to do until something stops us. Everyone of us collectively has upgraded our standard of living since the beginning of time. Just because you don't upgrade your phone every year doesn't mean you aren't living much better than your ancestors were.

The article itself is clueless as to the effects of automation and AI. UBI is an eventual given/necessity. The problem we will soon be facing has nothing to do with money/jobs but rather what do we do as a human race when there's nothing we can do better than a robot/AI.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 10:05:18 AM by undercover »

Zikoris

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2019, 04:22:09 PM »
I'm not sure I'd work even one extra day in my entire life to buy nicer stuff, assuming the stuff I had was decent and functional.

Linea_Norway

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2019, 04:36:34 AM »
I was reading this article which purports to say that folks want to continue to work - as opposed to FIRE or getting Guaranteed Income - because they want nicer stuff:

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/10/18/20919322/basic-income-freedom-dividend-andrew-yang-automation

Quote
Human desires keep evolving. It’d be relatively cheap to give everyone in the world a smartphone if that smartphone were a used Handspring Treo from 2002. But people don’t want Treos. They want iPhones. We want constantly improving consumer technology and are willing to work more to pay for it.

Hmm, would I continue to slave away because I want to have something that functionally the same but just "better"?  I DON'T THINK SO!  OK, I would be motivated to work more so that I could buy craft beer at $1.50 a bottle vs. whatever swill is sold for $0.75 a bottle, but that would only be an extra $66/mo.  I could also see eating well on $11/lb. Choice New York Strip / Ribeye rather than Hamburger Helper and ramen.  But gosh, at some point I look at purchases & experiences and say, "this expensive thing is not worth my having to continue to work more past the time of some FIRE date.

In the country where I live, craft beer is pretty unaffordable to buy regularly. That's why we brew our own craft beer, with good result.

No, it is a strange thing to say that "people want iphones". There are plenty of users of other phones who don't agree with that. I don't want an iphone at all. And now even my DH is planning to buy a new phone from another brand, because he doesn't want to spend a fortune on a new iphone.

The question is so simple: am I willing to slave away at work for x number of years to afford fancy stuff, or do I continue to be happy with cheaper, but fully useful stuff and have my freedom? For us Mustachians, the answers might be obvious, but maybe some other people care a lot about fancy clothes and phones and are willing to work longer for that.

Cranky

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2019, 06:20:56 AM »
YMMV.

Some people really DO want more/nice/bigger stuff, and don't mind going to work for it.

And some people actually DO just like working - they like the structure and the challenge.

I have friends who have retired multiple times. They travel, they play tennis, and they get bored and decide to go back to work for a while, and build another room on their house. They seem happy with those decisions.

Bird In Hand

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2019, 06:35:43 AM »
The question is so simple: am I willing to slave away at work for x number of years to afford fancy stuff, or do I continue to be happy with cheaper, but fully useful stuff and have my freedom? For us Mustachians, the answers might be obvious, but maybe some other people care a lot about fancy clothes and phones and are willing to work longer for that.

FIL and MIL are in their early 70's.  They really enjoy fine dining, fancy wine, maid service, leasing new cars, etc.  So they kept on working past 70 to afford that lifestyle.  They even bought a new/larger/fancier house in their late 60s for reasons I still haven't figured out.  What are they going to do with 3/4 bedrooms and 2,500 sqft??

Eventually MIL got burned out at her job and cut back to 1-2 days/week.  MIL @ PT plus FIL's job was just enough to keep up the lifestyle...until FIL lost his job.  So MIL "had to" work more days (to afford the stuff they like) and FIL got a temporary job.  Health is starting to decline in both, so the writing is on the wall.  When one or both can't work they plan to start a reverse mortgage to fund their lifestyle.

While their values seem bizarre to me, I know mine seem bizarre to them as well.  Ants and grasshoppers.  I don't think either of us is wrong (but long live the ants!).

dcheesi

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2019, 06:47:25 AM »
I'm kind of wired to like sets of things. For instance, I like all my pantry containers to match. Of course, they're actually recycled jars so I'm not actually spending money.... BUT I think the matching requirement is partly responsible for people wanting better stuff, as stupid as that sounds. People will break a bowl or two from a dinner set and buy a whole new set, just so everything matches. People will redecorate their whole living room if they need to replace a couch, just so everything matches. People will ditch a perfectly good dryer if they need to replace a washer, just so the two match. It's a thing, I'm sure of it!
Sounds like the Diderot Effect

ontheway2

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2019, 07:15:57 AM »
This kind of reminds me of this blog post. One has to teach their self to want "good enough" as we are hardwired to want better. Once you are accustomed to "better," it is harder to downgrade than to have avoided the lifestyle inflation in the first place

https://www.montanamoneyadventures.com/hardwired-for-lifestyle-inflation-and-how-to-beat-it/

Laura33

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2019, 08:00:21 AM »
I think that people change over time, and so their answers may change, too.  When I was a kid, I wanted All The Things.  We were poor, and my mom was very anti-consumer, and so I never had name-brand anything.  It definitely caused some social problems (a little protective coloration would have been nice in jr high/HS, ya know?).  But I didn't take the anti-consumerism lesson -- well, I did, but I interpreted it as I wasn't "worthy" of buying nice things for.  So when I got money, I enjoyed the liberation it provided; I still remember the first time I shopped without a grocery list, because I didn't have to worry about running out money -- I was practically twirling down the aisles with joy.  Now, I was still socking money away, eating at home, and all that stuff.  But I enjoyed the freedom that came with knowing I did not need to watch every single penny. 

And when I married DH?  Boy howdy.  He was Mr. Spendypants.  I still thought of myself as the frugal one, and I insisted we have a budget and put money away and all that, but I secretly got an extra special thrill when he'd want to buy me something expensive.  Now, again, we didn't go crazy; we always maxed out our 401(k)s and had an emergency fund and saved for our next cars and tried to live on one income and all that.  Honestly, I think most people would have called us frugal, at least compared to our peers with comparable earnings.  But by MMM standards, we were complete spendypants.  We just weren't interested in full-on MMM; we were both career-focused, DH always liked spending money, and we both enjoyed living a nice lifestyle that I could only dream of as a kid.  Because for me it was a dream.  I almost cried when we bought our current house, because it was one of the houses I used to walk by as a kid and think "I could never afford something like that."  (Side note: it's not a fancy mansion or anything, just a nice American Foursquare in a decent MC/UMC first-ring suburb, but as a kid I just assumed I'd be poor my whole life and that homes like that were for other people).  There are still days I look out my window and wonder how the hell I managed to get this pretty freaking awesome life. 

I even read MMM back then.  And rolled my eyes, thinking, hey, that's great for him.  But I spent a couple of decades scrimping and saving and doing all my own chores because I had to -- and I studied and worked my ass off specifically so I never have to live that way again.

For me, it took until probably my mid-40s to reach that curve on the hedonic treadmill where the next level up isn't as satisfying as the level below it.  I have everything I need and a ton of what I want, and wanting more just felt selfish and excessive and unnecessary.  And I had major life stuff happen (deaths in the family, depression, and such) and realized that my work wasn't as compelling as it had been when I was younger.  Time suddenly became an overwhelming presence in my life.  I've always been a daydreamer, a "someday" person, and the realization that at my age, "someday" may well be "never" if I don't act soon really kicked me in the ass.   

So over the past several years, I have been paying much closer attention to what spending does and doesn't make me happy, and how much time/energy I really want to devote to work vs. other things.  I have rediscovered the value of pushing yourself and doing hard, uncomfortable things just for the sake of proving to myself that I am still capable of more than I think.  I value being FI more than anything, because that means we never have to move again if I don't want to, and my top priority is not to inflate my lifestyle so I am financially insecure again. 

But even my own internal come-to-Jesus reckoning did not lead to an immediate MMM-level cutback.  In fact, one of the first things I did was buy my StupidCar, a car that is completely unjustifiable on any rational or logical level.  But it makes me blissfully happy every time I drive it.  I had dreamed about that car for decades, but I refused to even consider actually buying it; I said it was for practical, financial reasons, but it really went back to that "I'm not worthy of such a nice thing" belief from my childhood.  So when I looked at the finances and realized we really could write a check and still pay for college and still be on track to retire on our plan, it truly was liberating to seize the day and buy the damn thing; I honestly felt like I slayed that "I'm not good enough" beast for once and for all.  It's the stupidest thing I've ever bought, and it's also the stupidest thing I have never regretted for a single day since I bought it.  I can't drive it and not smile.

So it's easy for me to say now that more or better "stuff" doesn't make me happy, that I value being FI above anything else that money can buy, that freedom and experience is better than piling still more stuff into my life.  That is an entirely accurate reflection of where I am today.  But it took me over 20 years of working and consuming to get to that point, and it would be hypocritical of me to judge people who are earlier on in the journey.  And it's also easy for me to say because I'm pretty damn privileged.  There are a lot of people who struggle more than I ever have and never get to that point.  I mean, it's one thing to do your own chores because they allow you to learn and push yourself and be a badass; it's another thing to do it because you have no choice, because you can't afford to outsource anything.  So again, it would be pretty condescending of me to criticize someone else who is still trying to get to what they consider to be a comfortable lifestyle. 

What I don't have patience for is whining, particularly among people who do make enough to live and save.  You don't get to buy a new phone every two years and complain that you can't "afford" to save to retire, you know?  It's all a choice; just make the best one you can, and own it.

dignam

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2019, 09:07:14 AM »
I'll echo what others have said: sometimes it's about the value that spending money brings to you.  Admittedly I have a couple of expensive hobbies.  I build my own fpv (first person view) acro/racing drones and fly them with a buddy of mine.  I'm talking from the ground up; actually soldering and wiring the various components together.  It is an absolute blast, and gets me outdoors finding the perfect spot for acrobatic flying.  Half the fun is planning and tinkering with my various builds on the workbench.  Then bouncing ideas off of the friend, followed by lots of nasty but entertaining crashes which often require repairs.  I've spent probably $2k on the hobby over the past couple of years, but have zero regrets. 

On the other side, I use bedroom furniture that is older than me, and some is kinda broken.  I don't see much value spending money to replace it.

use2betrix

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2019, 09:43:36 AM »
I don’t think it would be too hard to argue that a smart phone of today might provide a reasonable enough amount of value over a flip phone from early 2000’s, to make it justified..

A few basic things my old flip phone couldn’t do..

Take reasonable pictures/videos
Provide maps/directions
Look up reviews on places I want to visit
Check email
Hot spot for laptop and other devises
Play music (replace MP3 player)
Create well categorized notes/reminders
Manage finances and banking
Play audiobooks
Read books
Set up an Uber
Scan files to PDF
Watch movies


My physical cost of my iPhone is about .1% of my annual spending.. I can argue that having the above capabilities is worth it..

GuitarStv

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2019, 10:06:40 AM »
Things I don't need a cell phone for:

Make calls
Take reasonable pictures/videos
Provide maps/directions
Look up reviews on places I want to visit
Check email
Hot spot for laptop and other devises
Play music (replace MP3 player)
Create well categorized notes/reminders
Manage finances and banking
Play audiobooks
Read books
Set up an Uber
Scan files to PDF
Watch movies



:P

Linea_Norway

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2019, 10:27:27 AM »
I don’t think it would be too hard to argue that a smart phone of today might provide a reasonable enough amount of value over a flip phone from early 2000’s, to make it justified..

A few basic things my old flip phone couldn’t do..

Take reasonable pictures/videos
Provide maps/directions
Look up reviews on places I want to visit
Check email
Hot spot for laptop and other devises
Play music (replace MP3 player)
Create well categorized notes/reminders
Manage finances and banking
Play audiobooks
Read books
Set up an Uber
Scan files to PDF
Watch movies


My physical cost of my iPhone is about .1% of my annual spending.. I can argue that having the above capabilities is worth it..

But you probably know that a cheaper brand smartphone can do exactly the same things.

use2betrix

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2019, 10:52:42 AM »
I don’t think it would be too hard to argue that a smart phone of today might provide a reasonable enough amount of value over a flip phone from early 2000’s, to make it justified..

A few basic things my old flip phone couldn’t do..

Take reasonable pictures/videos
Provide maps/directions
Look up reviews on places I want to visit
Check email
Hot spot for laptop and other devises
Play music (replace MP3 player)
Create well categorized notes/reminders
Manage finances and banking
Play audiobooks
Read books
Set up an Uber
Scan files to PDF
Watch movies


My physical cost of my iPhone is about .1% of my annual spending.. I can argue that having the above capabilities is worth it..

But you probably know that a cheaper brand smartphone can do exactly the same things.

Totally agree.. I’m not sure why this thread consists of so much of an “all or nothing” aspect. There are much cheaper options than an iPhone that are still sufficient for most of those tasks.

Same goes for everything else in this thread. There are certainly options between living like a pauper or living like a king. Where that line is drawn is different for everyone and someone cannot pretend to understand each persons underlying factors that cause them to make those decisions. Some people make “terrible” decisions in general which we can all agree on. Others may have more justifiable reasons and in much better positions with their employment or financially to make those decisions.

Someone may be fine with delaying their 8 year FIRE plan to 10 years if it means they will personally find a much happier quality of living in those 10 years, for whatever reason it may be. Maybe someone hates mowing the lawn, or cleaning, or changing their own oil. Not everyone has to find joy in everything, and if someone would rather go to the gym while they drop their car off for an oil change, even though they paid an “extra $20” it just might be worth it to them.

Personally, I’m on a day rate at work, and I’d rather work from home on a Saturday and make an extra $850, while maybe paying $100 of “convenience” items during the week, vs spending my Saturday doing those aforementioned tasks I could outsource.. Of course, people don’t see that though. They might just see that someone is paying an outside source to mow their lawn, or change their oil, or replace their struts in their car..

I have to seriously weigh out sometimes whether I want to spend my Saturdays working on projects, or working from home.. If it’s a project I really don’t want to do, and is less than $850 (I can work from home every Saturday, which I do) then I’d rather pay someone to do it, while I work..

jim555

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2019, 11:16:04 AM »
I don't see anything wrong with "continuing to work to buy nicer stuff".  If that is what you want to do, there is no right answer, it is a personal decision.  Some people want to fly first class and not ride on a bus, to each his/her own.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2019, 07:36:09 PM »
I don’t think it would be too hard to argue that a smart phone of today might provide a reasonable enough amount of value over a flip phone from early 2000’s, to make it justified..

A few basic things my old flip phone couldn’t do..

Take reasonable pictures/videos
Provide maps/directions
Look up reviews on places I want to visit
Check email
Hot spot for laptop and other devises
Play music (replace MP3 player)
Create well categorized notes/reminders
Manage finances and banking
Play audiobooks
Read books
Set up an Uber
Scan files to PDF
Watch movies


My physical cost of my iPhone is about .1% of my annual spending.. I can argue that having the above capabilities is worth it..

But you probably know that a cheaper brand smartphone can do exactly the same things.

It may be of negligible impact. An iPhone here in Australia is about $1200. An Android phone that does similar things might be $400. The difference is $800. After taking away 47.5% of that difference (business write off), the difference is $400, amortised over the life of the phone, thus about $150 per year. For some people that amount might be so insignificant that it does not bother them. For example many people in this forum donate 10 or 20x that amount to charity each year. I don't do that; I just buy an iPhone.

big_owl

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2019, 10:31:13 PM »
I was reading this article which purports to say that folks want to continue to work - as opposed to FIRE or getting Guaranteed Income - because they want nicer stuff:

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/10/18/20919322/basic-income-freedom-dividend-andrew-yang-automation

Quote
Human desires keep evolving. It’d be relatively cheap to give everyone in the world a smartphone if that smartphone were a used Handspring Treo from 2002. But people don’t want Treos. They want iPhones. We want constantly improving consumer technology and are willing to work more to pay for it.

Hmm, would I continue to slave away because I want to have something that functionally the same but just "better"?  I DON'T THINK SO!  OK, I would be motivated to work more so that I could buy craft beer at $1.50 a bottle vs. whatever swill is sold for $0.75 a bottle, but that would only be an extra $66/mo.  I could also see eating well on $11/lb. Choice New York Strip / Ribeye rather than Hamburger Helper and ramen.  But gosh, at some point I look at purchases & experiences and say, "this expensive thing is not worth my having to continue to work more past the time of some FIRE date.


Errr, doesn't your extra $66/mo in beer, that you deem important, equal in cost to a pretty expensive smartphone plan?  That's an extra $20k required in your retirement stash to support your craft beer habit.  I'd get much more utility out of a good smartphone than pissing it away in overpriced beer.

GuitarStv

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2019, 08:12:00 AM »
I was reading this article which purports to say that folks want to continue to work - as opposed to FIRE or getting Guaranteed Income - because they want nicer stuff:

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/10/18/20919322/basic-income-freedom-dividend-andrew-yang-automation

Quote
Human desires keep evolving. It’d be relatively cheap to give everyone in the world a smartphone if that smartphone were a used Handspring Treo from 2002. But people don’t want Treos. They want iPhones. We want constantly improving consumer technology and are willing to work more to pay for it.

Hmm, would I continue to slave away because I want to have something that functionally the same but just "better"?  I DON'T THINK SO!  OK, I would be motivated to work more so that I could buy craft beer at $1.50 a bottle vs. whatever swill is sold for $0.75 a bottle, but that would only be an extra $66/mo.  I could also see eating well on $11/lb. Choice New York Strip / Ribeye rather than Hamburger Helper and ramen.  But gosh, at some point I look at purchases & experiences and say, "this expensive thing is not worth my having to continue to work more past the time of some FIRE date.


Errr, doesn't your extra $66/mo in beer, that you deem important, equal in cost to a pretty expensive smartphone plan?  That's an extra $20k required in your retirement stash to support your craft beer habit.  I'd get much more utility out of a good smartphone than pissing it away in overpriced beer.


Cheap beer is sold for 75 cents a bottle and expensive beer is sold for 1.50$.  So there's a 75 cent price differential.  He's saying that he saves 66$ a month by getting the cheaper beer.  Which means he's drinking 88 beers a month.  Average month is 30 days, which means he's drinking 2.93 beers a day.  Every day.

Fuck smartphones and cheaper beer.  Dude, you have a drinking problem you need to kick.

ctuser1

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2019, 08:33:51 AM »
Cheap beer is sold for 75 cents a bottle and expensive beer is sold for 1.50$.  So there's a 75 cent price differential.  He's saying that he saves 66$ a month by getting the cheaper beer.  Which means he's drinking 88 beers a month.  Average month is 30 days, which means he's drinking 2.93 beers a day.  Every day.

Fuck smartphones and cheaper beer.  Dude, you have a drinking problem you need to kick.

I gather that craft beers haven't really caught on in Canada.  Seriously, when I ask for craft beer in my trips to Canada - I'm offered a very limited choice and they don't quite taste that good either.

One of my favorite craft beer is "Imperial Doughnut Break". https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/24300/90473/

That sells for $16/bottle last time I purchased one. It is my go-to celebration beer, that I get maybe once or twice in a year.

CT is a craft beer haven. I heard (but not verified) it is something like the #2 or #3 state in the US in terms of # of breweries. There are 3 very good ones within a 5 mile radius of my home, for example (and there may be others that I don't know of).

The more regular (i.e. once in a month) stuff I get from one of these breweries is $12 - $18 for a 4-pack, or ~$8-$12 for a growler/howler.

Yes, you can get cheapo <$1 bottles. But they taste like cat-p*ss to me.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 08:40:02 AM by ctuser1 »

MilesTeg

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2019, 08:58:57 AM »
I don’t think it would be too hard to argue that a smart phone of today might provide a reasonable enough amount of value over a flip phone from early 2000’s, to make it justified..

A few basic things my old flip phone couldn’t do..

Take reasonable pictures/videos
Provide maps/directions
Look up reviews on places I want to visit
Check email
Hot spot for laptop and other devises
Play music (replace MP3 player)
Create well categorized notes/reminders
Manage finances and banking
Play audiobooks
Read books
Set up an Uber
Scan files to PDF
Watch movies


My physical cost of my iPhone is about .1% of my annual spending.. I can argue that having the above capabilities is worth it..

But you probably know that a cheaper brand smartphone can do exactly the same things.

A high end smart phone can be a more economical choice than a cheap phone, IFF you aren't silly and replace it often or replace instead of repair. Higher specs, better build quality, ruggedized features (water/dust resistance), larger replacement part markets, and longer software support (one place Apple does way better than most others). All those things can make a device last much longer (both physically continue to function and to be able to run new software and have some semblance of security) nd thus be cheaper in the long run.

It's like most things. There is 'low price' and then there is 'high value'.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 09:01:52 AM by MilesTeg »

PhilB

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2019, 10:30:37 AM »
The problem is that everyone is still subject to the Boot Theory of Economics. So there is still value in buying higher quality goods that may also be subjectively nicer as well. Granted I can spend a couple hours at Goodwill thrifting for things, but that can be really hit or miss at times. So it's a matter of weighting hours of my time (high value, finite) against the higher price.

However, there comes a time where you really don't need to buy much any more. For example, once you have a nice knife set (for your cooking needs) odds are you are not going to have to replace it, ever. At most you might need to get it re-sharpened a couple of times. After that point, you are buying things for the sake of buying them, having them, or keeping up appearances, not because of an intrinsic need to have something.

This concludes my Ted Talk.
For me the distinction is working longer to be able to buy 'tools' that will make the things I enjoy doing or have to do more enjoyable is worth it.  Working to buy stuff because you are worried how other people will judge you if you don't have the latest / best / most fashionable x is just plain stupid and I have always refused to do it.  Cooking with a good set of knives (and a decent sharpener to keep them sharp) is so much more pleasurable - and as you say one good set should last a lifetime.  Constantly replacing them with the latest fashionable set endorsed by some celebrity chef so you can show them off is not only a waste of time and money, but also means you're using knives that you haven't grown used to and some of which just won't be as good anyway.


Jim Fiction

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2019, 01:16:29 PM »
Cheap beer is sold for 75 cents a bottle and expensive beer is sold for 1.50$.  So there's a 75 cent price differential.  He's saying that he saves 66$ a month by getting the cheaper beer.  Which means he's drinking 88 beers a month.  Average month is 30 days, which means he's drinking 2.93 beers a day.  Every day.

Fuck smartphones and cheaper beer.  Dude, you have a drinking problem you need to kick.

I gather that craft beers haven't really caught on in Canada.  Seriously, when I ask for craft beer in my trips to Canada - I'm offered a very limited choice and they don't quite taste that good either.

One of my favorite craft beer is "Imperial Doughnut Break". https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/24300/90473/

That sells for $16/bottle last time I purchased one. It is my go-to celebration beer, that I get maybe once or twice in a year.

CT is a craft beer haven. I heard (but not verified) it is something like the #2 or #3 state in the US in terms of # of breweries. There are 3 very good ones within a 5 mile radius of my home, for example (and there may be others that I don't know of).

The more regular (i.e. once in a month) stuff I get from one of these breweries is $12 - $18 for a 4-pack, or ~$8-$12 for a growler/howler.

Yes, you can get cheapo <$1 bottles. But they taste like cat-p*ss to me.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who was thrown off by the quoted beer prices. I wish good beer was that cheap!

Regarding Connecticut breweries, by most metrics Connecticut is middle of the pack:

https://www.brewersassociation.org/statistics-and-data/state-craft-beer-stats/?state=CT

Though I believe if you take into account geographical size it would rank towards the top. I.E. number of breweries per square mile...

bacchi

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2019, 01:26:57 PM »
I don’t think it would be too hard to argue that a smart phone of today might provide a reasonable enough amount of value over a flip phone from early 2000’s, to make it justified..

A few basic things my old flip phone couldn’t do..

Take reasonable pictures/videos
Provide maps/directions
Look up reviews on places I want to visit
Check email
Hot spot for laptop and other devises
Play music (replace MP3 player)
Create well categorized notes/reminders
Manage finances and banking
Play audiobooks
Read books
Set up an Uber
Scan files to PDF
Watch movies


My physical cost of my iPhone is about .1% of my annual spending.. I can argue that having the above capabilities is worth it..

But you probably know that a cheaper brand smartphone can do exactly the same things.

A high end smart phone can be a more economical choice than a cheap phone, IFF you aren't silly and replace it often or replace instead of repair. Higher specs, better build quality, ruggedized features (water/dust resistance), larger replacement part markets, and longer software support (one place Apple does way better than most others). All those things can make a device last much longer (both physically continue to function and to be able to run new software and have some semblance of security) nd thus be cheaper in the long run.

It's like most things. There is 'low price' and then there is 'high value'.

There are plenty of "cheap" phones that can run new apps and take decent pictures that don't cost $1200. If you want the flagship phone, consider that smart phones are like cars -- it's better to buy used and let someone else take the depreciation hit. Yeah, you can't virtue signal with the latest and greatest, but even one generation back is a great phone.


joshuagraham_xyz

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2019, 02:51:44 PM »
I was reading this article which purports to say that folks want to continue to work - as opposed to FIRE or getting Guaranteed Income - because they want nicer stuff:

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/10/18/20919322/basic-income-freedom-dividend-andrew-yang-automation

Quote
Human desires keep evolving. It’d be relatively cheap to give everyone in the world a smartphone if that smartphone were a used Handspring Treo from 2002. But people don’t want Treos. They want iPhones. We want constantly improving consumer technology and are willing to work more to pay for it.

Hmm, would I continue to slave away because I want to have something that functionally the same but just "better"?  I DON'T THINK SO!  OK, I would be motivated to work more so that I could buy craft beer at $1.50 a bottle vs. whatever swill is sold for $0.75 a bottle, but that would only be an extra $66/mo.  I could also see eating well on $11/lb. Choice New York Strip / Ribeye rather than Hamburger Helper and ramen.  But gosh, at some point I look at purchases & experiences and say, "this expensive thing is not worth my having to continue to work more past the time of some FIRE date.


Errr, doesn't your extra $66/mo in beer, that you deem important, equal in cost to a pretty expensive smartphone plan?  That's an extra $20k required in your retirement stash to support your craft beer habit.  I'd get much more utility out of a good smartphone than pissing it away in overpriced beer.


Cheap beer is sold for 75 cents a bottle and expensive beer is sold for 1.50$.  So there's a 75 cent price differential.  He's saying that he saves 66$ a month by getting the cheaper beer.  Which means he's drinking 88 beers a month.  Average month is 30 days, which means he's drinking 2.93 beers a day.  Every day.

Fuck smartphones and cheaper beer.  Dude, you have a drinking problem you need to kick.

3 beers a day is a "drinking problem"?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 02:53:20 PM by joshuagraham_xyz »

GuitarStv

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2019, 03:05:24 PM »
I was reading this article which purports to say that folks want to continue to work - as opposed to FIRE or getting Guaranteed Income - because they want nicer stuff:

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/10/18/20919322/basic-income-freedom-dividend-andrew-yang-automation

Quote
Human desires keep evolving. It’d be relatively cheap to give everyone in the world a smartphone if that smartphone were a used Handspring Treo from 2002. But people don’t want Treos. They want iPhones. We want constantly improving consumer technology and are willing to work more to pay for it.

Hmm, would I continue to slave away because I want to have something that functionally the same but just "better"?  I DON'T THINK SO!  OK, I would be motivated to work more so that I could buy craft beer at $1.50 a bottle vs. whatever swill is sold for $0.75 a bottle, but that would only be an extra $66/mo.  I could also see eating well on $11/lb. Choice New York Strip / Ribeye rather than Hamburger Helper and ramen.  But gosh, at some point I look at purchases & experiences and say, "this expensive thing is not worth my having to continue to work more past the time of some FIRE date.


Errr, doesn't your extra $66/mo in beer, that you deem important, equal in cost to a pretty expensive smartphone plan?  That's an extra $20k required in your retirement stash to support your craft beer habit.  I'd get much more utility out of a good smartphone than pissing it away in overpriced beer.


Cheap beer is sold for 75 cents a bottle and expensive beer is sold for 1.50$.  So there's a 75 cent price differential.  He's saying that he saves 66$ a month by getting the cheaper beer.  Which means he's drinking 88 beers a month.  Average month is 30 days, which means he's drinking 2.93 beers a day.  Every day.

Fuck smartphones and cheaper beer.  Dude, you have a drinking problem you need to kick.

3 beers a day is a "drinking problem"?

It is 50% more than the NIAA 'at-risk' definition.



Quote
What's "at-risk" or "heavy" drinking?
For healthy adults in general, drinking more than these single-day or weekly limits is considered "at-risk" or "heavy" drinking:

Men: More than 4 drinks on any day or 14 per week
Women: More than 3 drinks on any day or 7 per week
About 1 in 4 people who exceed these limits already has alcohol use disorder, and the rest are at greater risk for developing these and other problems.

https://www.rethinkingdrinking.niaaa.nih.gov/how-much-is-too-much/is-your-drinking-pattern-risky/whats-at-risk-or-heavy-drinking.aspx

MasterStache

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2019, 03:35:45 PM »
I don’t think it would be too hard to argue that a smart phone of today might provide a reasonable enough amount of value over a flip phone from early 2000’s, to make it justified..

A few basic things my old flip phone couldn’t do..

Take reasonable pictures/videos
Provide maps/directions
Look up reviews on places I want to visit
Check email
Hot spot for laptop and other devises
Play music (replace MP3 player)
Create well categorized notes/reminders
Manage finances and banking
Play audiobooks
Read books
Set up an Uber
Scan files to PDF
Watch movies


My physical cost of my iPhone is about .1% of my annual spending.. I can argue that having the above capabilities is worth it..

But you probably know that a cheaper brand smartphone can do exactly the same things.

A high end smart phone can be a more economical choice than a cheap phone, IFF you aren't silly and replace it often or replace instead of repair. Higher specs, better build quality, ruggedized features (water/dust resistance), larger replacement part markets, and longer software support (one place Apple does way better than most others). All those things can make a device last much longer (both physically continue to function and to be able to run new software and have some semblance of security) nd thus be cheaper in the long run.

It's like most things. There is 'low price' and then there is 'high value'.

There are plenty of "cheap" phones that can run new apps and take decent pictures that don't cost $1200. If you want the flagship phone, consider that smart phones are like cars -- it's better to buy used and let someone else take the depreciation hit. Yeah, you can't virtue signal with the latest and greatest, but even one generation back is a great phone.

Actually you can still buy older iPhones brand new. I didn't want a tablet size smart phone in my pocket so I bought a brand new iPhone SE (2016 version) last year for $80. Up until that point I hadn't paid for an actual phone in years.   

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2019, 05:48:25 PM »
Is there a hard line between a "thing" and an "experience"? I've had lots of great times in my car - track days, mountain runs, swapping cars with friends on road trips - and yet the car is a "thing". Likewise, buying a couple of gaming computers and setting up a LAN has given me lots of awesome nights in with friends and family - turning a thing into an experience.

All "things" pretty much provide an experience.  So combining the two would make it a meaningless discussion.  I think the obvious difference in social usage is that an experience is something you pay for and have nothing to show other than pictures.

Your comment is exactly why I focus on buying things more than experiences, even though that's an opposite trend nowadays.  But I do focus on "things" that provide a considerable amount of cheap/free entertainment over a long period of time - which saves me money on experiences :)

It seems like nowadays people think it's worth working harder to go on trips and experiences.  I tend to like some of the MMM posts that remind us that we can have amazing experiences close to home for little to no money.  I think more people would be better served focusing less on expensive experiences and instead, just getting out and exploring their own State a heck of a lot more.  I could spend my entire life in Florida (my home State) and still never see it all or experience it all.  While I travel a bit, I do tend to focus a lot more on awesome experiences closer to home.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: The meme of continuing to work to buy nicer stuff
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2019, 05:51:05 PM »
I don’t think it would be too hard to argue that a smart phone of today might provide a reasonable enough amount of value over a flip phone from early 2000’s, to make it justified..

A few basic things my old flip phone couldn’t do..

Take reasonable pictures/videos
Provide maps/directions
Look up reviews on places I want to visit
Check email
Hot spot for laptop and other devises
Play music (replace MP3 player)
Create well categorized notes/reminders
Manage finances and banking
Play audiobooks
Read books
Set up an Uber
Scan files to PDF
Watch movies


My physical cost of my iPhone is about .1% of my annual spending.. I can argue that having the above capabilities is worth it..

But you probably know that a cheaper brand smartphone can do exactly the same things.

A high end smart phone can be a more economical choice than a cheap phone, IFF you aren't silly and replace it often or replace instead of repair. Higher specs, better build quality, ruggedized features (water/dust resistance), larger replacement part markets, and longer software support (one place Apple does way better than most others). All those things can make a device last much longer (both physically continue to function and to be able to run new software and have some semblance of security) nd thus be cheaper in the long run.

It's like most things. There is 'low price' and then there is 'high value'.

There are plenty of "cheap" phones that can run new apps and take decent pictures that don't cost $1200. If you want the flagship phone, consider that smart phones are like cars -- it's better to buy used and let someone else take the depreciation hit. Yeah, you can't virtue signal with the latest and greatest, but even one generation back is a great phone.

Actually you can still buy older iPhones brand new. I didn't want a tablet size smart phone in my pocket so I bought a brand new iPhone SE (2016 version) last year for $80. Up until that point I hadn't paid for an actual phone in years.

While I spent considerably more, I bought a Pixel 3 since it was under $400 when the Pixel 4 came out - or 50% off and the phones are nearly identical.  Buying last years model, even brand new, is a great way to get nearly the latest/greatest at a huge discount.  For those who don't want a more outdated model and don't mind spending considerably more than $100, it's a great way to avoid the $1000 phones while still getting nearly the same experience.