The incandescent bulb ban comes to Canada in 1 week

[Timmmy]

There is no potential savings for CFL bulbs in my house because I don't have the lights on enough to make them have any sort of reasonable payback period.

Uh, you don't need to turn on the lights because you have the aquarium lights on?  Sounds like lights to me.  Are the aquarium lights LED?

meh... the aquarium lights do marginally light up the room they are in but they are closed top tanks and the ambient light produced is not sufficient to do anything other than walk through the room.  And astonishingly, you can walk through a room in the dark(I know, I do it everyday).  If I want to actually do something in the room I have to turn some of those "evil" incandescent bulbs on.

The aquariums don't use LEDs.  The massive cost would also present an insanely long payback period. 

[nereo]

I haven't been a big fan of the light emitted from CFLs, but I love my LEDs.  I've been systematically replacing the A19s and halogen G-10s in my house with LEDs to great effect.  Even did a blind comparison test between a 60w incandescent and a 9.5w Cree LED.  Of the 6 people I asked, all preferred the light from the Cree LED.  So did I (although I knew which one was which, so I can't be considered unbiased).
CostCo here ran a promotion with bulbs costing $7.49 with a $7 rebate ($1.61 after taxes & rebate).  Home Depot in the US frequently has A19 bulbs on sale/rebate-promo for ~$6. The problem is it's inconsistent to find these low prices, but since these are practically BIFL items now I buy a couple when huge discounts appear and replace as necessary. I still go into sticker-shock when I see bulbs advertised at $24.

As for the government 'banning' bulbs - meh, i have mixed feelings.  I have the same gut reaction as most that "no one should be able to tell me what I can buy", but the reality is that's a function of modern governments.  They prohibit certain paints because they have toxins, they set standards on how much factories can pollute, and how efficient cars need to be.  Given the technology I don't see why an incandescent bulb shouldn't be banned.  It would be nice if people would just choose them naturally for their low-energy use and nice lighting option, but history has shown that us humans are fairly stupid with long-term thinking and will choose the easy polluting and ultimately more costly route almost every time.

[Bateaux]

I stocked up on a few cases 2 years ago for use in areas that aren't used much.

[bacchi]

There is no potential savings for CFL bulbs in my house because I don't have the lights on enough to make them have any sort of reasonable payback period.

Wait, what? A CFL has a 100-200% payback the first year if you only run a light 3 hours/day. You don't run any of your lights more than 3 hours each day? Bedroom light for reading, desk lamp for computer, kitchen light for cooking/eating, garage light for workshop?

The payback for 1 hour/day is only...207 days for a CFL. You don't run any of your lights 1 hour/day?

http://truecostblog.com/2010/05/09/the-roi-payback-of-tossing-incandescents-for-cfls/

http://www.green-energy-efficient-homes.com/cfl-savings-calculator.html

[DarinC]

Kind of like when the jack-booted thugs took the lead out of the gasoline. All of this violence against the poor American consumer.

Haha! Hilarious! I think I like you person I don't know.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2013/01/03/how-lead-caused-americas-violent-crime-epidemic/

[dragoncar]

There is no potential savings for CFL bulbs in my house because I don't have the lights on enough to make them have any sort of reasonable payback period.

Wait, what? A CFL has a 100-200% payback the first year if you only run a light 3 hours/day. You don't run any of your lights more than 3 hours each day? Bedroom light for reading, desk lamp for computer, kitchen light for cooking/eating, garage light for workshop?

The payback for 1 hour/day is only...207 days for a CFL. You don't run any of your lights 1 hour/day?

http://truecostblog.com/2010/05/09/the-roi-payback-of-tossing-incandescents-for-cfls/

http://www.green-energy-efficient-homes.com/cfl-savings-calculator.html

Only his fish lights-- otherwise he walks around in the dark.  Really he should sell his incandescent bulbs on eBay and invest the proceeds

To be fair, there are no lights in my house that are consistently on for 3 hours a day (barring guests and such).  Cumulative light use may be 3 hours per day, but that's on a room by room basis.  Luckily the computer generated its own light and that is fluorescent

[Timmmy]

There is no potential savings for CFL bulbs in my house because I don't have the lights on enough to make them have any sort of reasonable payback period.

Wait, what? A CFL has a 100-200% payback the first year if you only run a light 3 hours/day. You don't run any of your lights more than 3 hours each day? Bedroom light for reading, desk lamp for computer, kitchen light for cooking/eating, garage light for workshop?

The payback for 1 hour/day is only...207 days for a CFL. You don't run any of your lights 1 hour/day?

http://truecostblog.com/2010/05/09/the-roi-payback-of-tossing-incandescents-for-cfls/

http://www.green-energy-efficient-homes.com/cfl-savings-calculator.html

Assuming there is 1 light in my house that I average 1 hour per day with it on(I doubt it), plugging in the relevant figures in the calc provided nets me a 4.47 year payback.  All that to have substandard and annoying lighting.  I'll pass. 

Love this quote from the calc linked...

One of the conclusions you can draw after using this CFL savings calculator is that the push to eliminate incandescent light bulbs is perhaps ill advised. Yes, the incandescent light bulb is far less efficient than a CFL and produces far more heat than light. But there are many situations where the added expense of a CFL (and the added environmental disposal hassle, since CFLs, like all fluorescents, contain toxic mercury and must be disposed of through a hazardous waste dropoff) aren’t justified by the minimal savings

Nobody has mentioned the lovely toxic mercury that's going in to landfills yet.  I know they are supposed to be recycled but we all know that is not happening to most of them. 

There is no potential savings for CFL bulbs in my house because I don't have the lights on enough to make them have any sort of reasonable payback period.

Wait, what? A CFL has a 100-200% payback the first year if you only run a light 3 hours/day. You don't run any of your lights more than 3 hours each day? Bedroom light for reading, desk lamp for computer, kitchen light for cooking/eating, garage light for workshop?

The payback for 1 hour/day is only...207 days for a CFL. You don't run any of your lights 1 hour/day?

http://truecostblog.com/2010/05/09/the-roi-payback-of-tossing-incandescents-for-cfls/

http://www.green-energy-efficient-homes.com/cfl-savings-calculator.html

Only his fish lights-- otherwise he walks around in the dark.  Really he should sell his incandescent bulbs on eBay and invest the proceeds

To be fair, there are no lights in my house that are consistently on for 3 hours a day (barring guests and such).  Cumulative light use may be 3 hours per day, but that's on a room by room basis.  Luckily the computer generated its own light and that is fluorescent

I'm not even home and awake for 3 hours per day during this time of the year.  In my slow season, when I am home more, there is plenty of sunshine to light my house. 

[nereo]

Love this quote from the calc linked...

One of the conclusions you can draw after using this CFL savings calculator is that the push to eliminate incandescent light bulbs is perhaps ill advised. Yes, the incandescent light bulb is far less efficient than a CFL and produces far more heat than light. But there are many situations where the added expense of a CFL (and the added environmental disposal hassle, since CFLs, like all fluorescents, contain toxic mercury and must be disposed of through a hazardous waste dropoff) aren’t justified by the minimal savings

Nobody has mentioned the lovely toxic mercury that's going in to landfills yet.  I know they are supposed to be recycled but we all know that is not happening to most of them. 

Interesting link, and I agree that the recycling (or failure to recycle) CFLs must be considered. But I disagree with the link's conclusions that 'the push to eliminate incandescent light bulbs is perhaps ill advised' because it's failing to take into account LEDs.  At best I see CFLs as an intermediate technolog - LEDs score higher, last longer, don't contain mercury and use less energy than both.    Now that LED bulbs are coming in (pre-rebates) at under $10 the ROI for typical usage is coming in right about 1 year (3hr/day average, 16¢/kw*-hr).  Factor in the longevity of the bulb and it becomes a no-brainer from an economics point-of-view.

[dragoncar]

Love this quote from the calc linked...

One of the conclusions you can draw after using this CFL savings calculator is that the push to eliminate incandescent light bulbs is perhaps ill advised. Yes, the incandescent light bulb is far less efficient than a CFL and produces far more heat than light. But there are many situations where the added expense of a CFL (and the added environmental disposal hassle, since CFLs, like all fluorescents, contain toxic mercury and must be disposed of through a hazardous waste dropoff) aren’t justified by the minimal savings

Nobody has mentioned the lovely toxic mercury that's going in to landfills yet.  I know they are supposed to be recycled but we all know that is not happening to most of them. 

Interesting link, and I agree that the recycling (or failure to recycle) CFLs must be considered. But I disagree with the link's conclusions that 'the push to eliminate incandescent light bulbs is perhaps ill advised' because it's failing to take into account LEDs.  At best I see CFLs as an intermediate technolog - LEDs score higher, last longer, don't contain mercury and use less energy than both.    Now that LED bulbs are coming in (pre-rebates) at under $10 the ROI for typical usage is coming in right about 1 year (3hr/day average, 16¢/kw*-hr).  Factor in the longevity of the bulb and it becomes a no-brainer from an economics point-of-view.

Yeah, I'm surprised anyone gets CFL these days.  It's the ZIP disk of the lighting world (you guys remember ZIP disks???).

Anyways, I ran the savings calculator on my new BR40 reflectors:

Electricity cost: $0.15/kwh
Incandescent wattage: 65w
LED wattage: 17w
Cost per incandescent: $5
Cost per LED: $10
Incandescent life: 2,500h
LED life: 25,000h

Solve to find a ROI of 10%.... replace any light used more than 9 minutes per day

So my replacement conclusion actually matches up with the other guy's even though my numbers are completely different.  It really makes sense probably because BR40 incandescent bulbs are already friggin expensive.

[bacchi]

Assuming there is 1 light in my house that I average 1 hour per day with it on(I doubt it), plugging in the relevant figures in the calc provided nets me a 4.47 year payback.

You must have really cheap energy. I can't even get a 4.4 year payback with $.01/kwh. What numbers are you using for cost per bulb?

[dragoncar]

Assuming there is 1 light in my house that I average 1 hour per day with it on(I doubt it), plugging in the relevant figures in the calc provided nets me a 4.47 year payback.

You must have really cheap energy. I can't even get a 4.4 year payback with $.01/kwh. What numbers are you using for cost per bulb?

Plus, even a 4.47 year payback actually a pretty good rate of return.

[Spork]

Yeah, I'm surprised anyone gets CFL these days.  It's the ZIP disk of the lighting world (you guys remember ZIP disks???).

Anyways, I ran the savings calculator on my new BR40 reflectors:

Electricity cost: $0.15/kwh
Incandescent wattage: 65w
LED wattage: 17w
Cost per incandescent: $5
Cost per LED: $10
Incandescent life: 2,500h
LED life: 25,000h

Solve to find a ROI of 10%.... replace any light used more than 9 minutes per day

So my replacement conclusion actually matches up with the other guy's even though my numbers are completely different.  It really makes sense probably because BR40 incandescent bulbs are already friggin expensive.

the key assumption here is *IF* LEDs actually give the promised lifetime.  In my experience CFs never did (and incandescents seem to go much longer than estimated).  At $10 an LED... I am absolutely willing to make that bet.  At $20... I hesitate.  I know I am timing the market.  I know that's dumb. 

[dragoncar]

Yeah, I'm surprised anyone gets CFL these days.  It's the ZIP disk of the lighting world (you guys remember ZIP disks???).

Anyways, I ran the savings calculator on my new BR40 reflectors:

Electricity cost: $0.15/kwh
Incandescent wattage: 65w
LED wattage: 17w
Cost per incandescent: $5
Cost per LED: $10
Incandescent life: 2,500h
LED life: 25,000h

Solve to find a ROI of 10%.... replace any light used more than 9 minutes per day

So my replacement conclusion actually matches up with the other guy's even though my numbers are completely different.  It really makes sense probably because BR40 incandescent bulbs are already friggin expensive.

the key assumption here is *IF* LEDs actually give the promised lifetime.  In my experience CFs never did (and incandescents seem to go much longer than estimated).  At $10 an LED... I am absolutely willing to make that bet.  At $20... I hesitate.  I know I am timing the market.  I know that's dumb.

Well that's why I bought em at Costco.  Hopefully they don't change their return policy in the next 20 years :-P


By the way, has anyone tested the turn on wattage for their LEDs?  As mentioned above, mine take .25-.5s to turn on -- I assume due to capacitor charging and/or power stabilization circuitry.  Do you think they consume higher instantaneous power during this time?  Curious for circuit breaker issues.

[Spork]

Yeah, I'm surprised anyone gets CFL these days.  It's the ZIP disk of the lighting world (you guys remember ZIP disks???).

Anyways, I ran the savings calculator on my new BR40 reflectors:

Electricity cost: $0.15/kwh
Incandescent wattage: 65w
LED wattage: 17w
Cost per incandescent: $5
Cost per LED: $10
Incandescent life: 2,500h
LED life: 25,000h

Solve to find a ROI of 10%.... replace any light used more than 9 minutes per day

So my replacement conclusion actually matches up with the other guy's even though my numbers are completely different.  It really makes sense probably because BR40 incandescent bulbs are already friggin expensive.

the key assumption here is *IF* LEDs actually give the promised lifetime.  In my experience CFs never did (and incandescents seem to go much longer than estimated).  At $10 an LED... I am absolutely willing to make that bet.  At $20... I hesitate.  I know I am timing the market.  I know that's dumb.

Well that's why I bought em at Costco.  Hopefully they don't change their return policy in the next 20 years :-P


By the way, has anyone tested the turn on wattage for their LEDs?  As mentioned above, mine take .25-.5s to turn on -- I assume due to capacitor charging and/or power stabilization circuitry.  Do you think they consume higher instantaneous power during this time?  Curious for circuit breaker issues.

I'm not an electrician, but I always assume amps/watts printed on something are the max. 

...but even if it pulls double at 34watts... you'd be able to put 45 of them on a 14amp circuit (assuming nothing else on that circuit). 

And I'm not sure what the code compliance here is either.  Again: not an electrician ... but I would assume for code compliance you wire for the fixture, not the bulb.  So if you have a 100watt socket with a 17watt bulb in it... you'd count that as 100w.  [corrections by people that aren't making wild ass guesses gracefully accepted here.]

[nereo]

the key assumption here is *IF* LEDs actually give the promised lifetime.  In my experience CFs never did (and incandescents seem to go much longer than estimated).  At $10 an LED... I am absolutely willing to make that bet.  At $20... I hesitate.  I know I am timing the market.  I know that's dumb.

Sure - there's a lot of uncertainty about whether the bulbs will make it to 25,000 hrs (I've heard some engineers claim they'll last far longer, and 25k is just the 'testable limit' right now)

But - you can pay back the cost of a $10 bulb in just 12-14 months with normal usage with normal energy savings.
(math:  15¢/kw*-hr, 52wt energy savings vs 60watt bulb (actual measured use of a CREE 60wt equivalent), 3 hours/day.  so 0.052kw *3 hrs * 365 days *15¢= $8.54)
So - that's only 1,095 hours.  Even if you can get incandescent bulbs for 1¢ each and even if an LED lasts 2,500 hours (1/10th their rating) you STILL come out way ahead.

[Timmmy]

Assuming there is 1 light in my house that I average 1 hour per day with it on(I doubt it), plugging in the relevant figures in the calc provided nets me a 4.47 year payback.

You must have really cheap energy. I can't even get a 4.4 year payback with $.01/kwh. What numbers are you using for cost per bulb?

I have a stash of incandescent bulbs gifted to me from a former employer so free and I think $3 or $4 for the CFLs.

Plus, even a 4.47 year payback actually a pretty good rate of return.

Not when the light sucks and dimming abilities are horrible. 

Love this quote from the calc linked...

One of the conclusions you can draw after using this CFL savings calculator is that the push to eliminate incandescent light bulbs is perhaps ill advised. Yes, the incandescent light bulb is far less efficient than a CFL and produces far more heat than light. But there are many situations where the added expense of a CFL (and the added environmental disposal hassle, since CFLs, like all fluorescents, contain toxic mercury and must be disposed of through a hazardous waste dropoff) aren’t justified by the minimal savings

Nobody has mentioned the lovely toxic mercury that's going in to landfills yet.  I know they are supposed to be recycled but we all know that is not happening to most of them. 

Interesting link, and I agree that the recycling (or failure to recycle) CFLs must be considered. But I disagree with the link's conclusions that 'the push to eliminate incandescent light bulbs is perhaps ill advised' because it's failing to take into account LEDs.  At best I see CFLs as an intermediate technolog - LEDs score higher, last longer, don't contain mercury and use less energy than both.    Now that LED bulbs are coming in (pre-rebates) at under $10 the ROI for typical usage is coming in right about 1 year (3hr/day average, 16¢/kw*-hr).  Factor in the longevity of the bulb and it becomes a no-brainer from an economics point-of-view.

Yeah, I'm surprised anyone gets CFL these days.  It's the ZIP disk of the lighting world (you guys remember ZIP disks???).

Anyways, I ran the savings calculator on my new BR40 reflectors:

Electricity cost: $0.15/kwh
Incandescent wattage: 65w
LED wattage: 17w
Cost per incandescent: $5
Cost per LED: $10
Incandescent life: 2,500h
LED life: 25,000h

Solve to find a ROI of 10%.... replace any light used more than 9 minutes per day

So my replacement conclusion actually matches up with the other guy's even though my numbers are completely different.  It really makes sense probably because BR40 incandescent bulbs are already friggin expensive.

I've never owned any LEDs as light bulb replacements.  Maybe I'll buy one and see how the light quality is. How do they work with dimmers?

Come to think of it...  I've got some LED under cabinet lights in my kitchen that seem pretty good. 

[dragoncar]

Assuming there is 1 light in my house that I average 1 hour per day with it on(I doubt it), plugging in the relevant figures in the calc provided nets me a 4.47 year payback.

You must have really cheap energy. I can't even get a 4.4 year payback with $.01/kwh. What numbers are you using for cost per bulb?

I have a stash of incandescent bulbs gifted to me from a former employer so free and I think $3 or $4 for the CFLs.

Plus, even a 4.47 year payback actually a pretty good rate of return.

Not when the light sucks and dimming abilities are horrible. 

Love this quote from the calc linked...

One of the conclusions you can draw after using this CFL savings calculator is that the push to eliminate incandescent light bulbs is perhaps ill advised. Yes, the incandescent light bulb is far less efficient than a CFL and produces far more heat than light. But there are many situations where the added expense of a CFL (and the added environmental disposal hassle, since CFLs, like all fluorescents, contain toxic mercury and must be disposed of through a hazardous waste dropoff) aren’t justified by the minimal savings

Nobody has mentioned the lovely toxic mercury that's going in to landfills yet.  I know they are supposed to be recycled but we all know that is not happening to most of them. 

Interesting link, and I agree that the recycling (or failure to recycle) CFLs must be considered. But I disagree with the link's conclusions that 'the push to eliminate incandescent light bulbs is perhaps ill advised' because it's failing to take into account LEDs.  At best I see CFLs as an intermediate technolog - LEDs score higher, last longer, don't contain mercury and use less energy than both.    Now that LED bulbs are coming in (pre-rebates) at under $10 the ROI for typical usage is coming in right about 1 year (3hr/day average, 16¢/kw*-hr).  Factor in the longevity of the bulb and it becomes a no-brainer from an economics point-of-view.

Yeah, I'm surprised anyone gets CFL these days.  It's the ZIP disk of the lighting world (you guys remember ZIP disks???).

Anyways, I ran the savings calculator on my new BR40 reflectors:

Electricity cost: $0.15/kwh
Incandescent wattage: 65w
LED wattage: 17w
Cost per incandescent: $5
Cost per LED: $10
Incandescent life: 2,500h
LED life: 25,000h

Solve to find a ROI of 10%.... replace any light used more than 9 minutes per day

So my replacement conclusion actually matches up with the other guy's even though my numbers are completely different.  It really makes sense probably because BR40 incandescent bulbs are already friggin expensive.

I've never owned any LEDs as light bulb replacements.  Maybe I'll buy one and see how the light quality is. How do they work with dimmers?

Come to think of it...  I've got some LED under cabinet lights in my kitchen that seem pretty good.

Mine work really well with dimmers and are indistinguishable incandescent at full brightness.  When dimmed, they do not get more yellow, like incandescent do (that's not really a bad thing IMO) and some can only be dimmed to, say, 20% rather than 5%.  Not a problem for me. 

Check out Home Depot and look at the CREE bulbs.  You can always return it if you don't like the performance, but they also have demos sometimes.

That said, if you already have a bunch of incandescent AND rarely turn on the lights, you probably don't need LED.  They WILL get cheaper over time.  If there's one bulb that does get used more, you could try it there.

[nereo]

I've never owned any LEDs as light bulb replacements.  Maybe I'll buy one and see how the light quality is. How do they work with dimmers?

Come to think of it...  I've got some LED under cabinet lights in my kitchen that seem pretty good.

I did a blind test of two bulbs side-by-side, an LED (Cree 9.5w) and a GE 60W incandescent.  The six people I showed them to all preferred the LED.  I've read similar studies where most testers either prefer the LED or say they don't have a preference.  But of course everyone has their own preference.

Most LEDs now can be used on dimmers.  Just make sure that the bulb you buy says "Dimmable" on the package.  From ~50% power to full power it works as you'd expect (the light just gets dimmer to your eyes).  at very low levels something a bid odd happens; because LEDs put out a narrow wavelength of light compared to incandescents, the color will shift perceptibly if you have an LED bulb and an incandescent bulb on the same dimmer switch (I did this when I did my blind-test).  I basically never have my dimmer set that low, and i've gone to all LEDs on the same switch anyhow, so this isn't an issue for me.  But if you like very low 'mood lighting' and you are planning of just changing one of several bulbs, the LED will appear different than the others.

[Spork]

I've never owned any LEDs as light bulb replacements.  Maybe I'll buy one and see how the light quality is. How do they work with dimmers?

Come to think of it...  I've got some LED under cabinet lights in my kitchen that seem pretty good.

From what I've read: It takes a bit of engineering unless you're just lucky.  A friend tried to explain it to me, but there are multiple kinds of dimmers depending on what bulb you're using.   

I just did drop in replacement bulbs for one circuit with dimmers... and they don't dim much and buzzzzzzzzzz.   

[Spork]

the key assumption here is *IF* LEDs actually give the promised lifetime.  In my experience CFs never did (and incandescents seem to go much longer than estimated).  At $10 an LED... I am absolutely willing to make that bet.  At $20... I hesitate.  I know I am timing the market.  I know that's dumb.

Sure - there's a lot of uncertainty about whether the bulbs will make it to 25,000 hrs (I've heard some engineers claim they'll last far longer, and 25k is just the 'testable limit' right now)

But - you can pay back the cost of a $10 bulb in just 12-14 months with normal usage with normal energy savings.
(math:  15¢/kw*-hr, 52wt energy savings vs 60watt bulb (actual measured use of a CREE 60wt equivalent), 3 hours/day.  so 0.052kw *3 hrs * 365 days *15¢= $8.54)
So - that's only 1,095 hours.  Even if you can get incandescent bulbs for 1¢ each and even if an LED lasts 2,500 hours (1/10th their rating) you STILL come out way ahead.

I get that.   I've run the numbers with my actual estimated usage.  And the bulbs I need are not $10.  In our case we'd need to replace the fixtures with LED fixtures.

I also live in an area with really sucky power.  I'm skeptical that a 120v LED bulb with sensitive electronics will have much staying power.

[nereo]

I get that.   I've run the numbers with my actual estimated usage.  And the bulbs I need are not $10.  In our case we'd need to replace the fixtures with LED fixtures.

I also live in an area with really sucky power.  I'm skeptical that a 120v LED bulb with sensitive electronics will have much staying power.

Of course, if you have sealed recessed cans and you have to change those to put in an LED you might never recover the many hundreds of $$ and effort with drywall, painting etc. 

No idea how LEDs will handle power spikes.  That's a good question - perhpas someone else could chime in.  I do know that in my previous job we had big power spikes and both CFLs and halogen lights (on a 12v line) would last about for about 1 month each before they burned out.  Incanescents didn't do much better, but since the bulbs never lasted long enough to make a difference we were forced to buy whatever was cheapest, which was always the incandescent.

Spork, your picture always kinda creeps me out. 

[Spork]

I get that.   I've run the numbers with my actual estimated usage.  And the bulbs I need are not $10.  In our case we'd need to replace the fixtures with LED fixtures.

I also live in an area with really sucky power.  I'm skeptical that a 120v LED bulb with sensitive electronics will have much staying power.

Of course, if you have sealed recessed cans and you have to change those to put in an LED you might never recover the many hundreds of $$ and effort with drywall, painting etc. 

No idea how LEDs will handle power spikes.  That's a good question - perhpas someone else could chime in.  I do know that in my previous job we had big power spikes and both CFLs and halogen lights (on a 12v line) would last about for about 1 month each before they burned out.  Incanescents didn't do much better, but since the bulbs never lasted long enough to make a difference we were forced to buy whatever was cheapest, which was always the incandescent.

130v incandescents last forever for me.  120v's might last 6 months.  CF's are hit-n-miss.     I've had them go out in a few weeks or a couple of years.

I'm test driving LEDs in the low hanging fruit to see if they crap out quickly.  I.e., the fixture that takes standard bulbs and is used very often. 

There are drop in replacement conversions for my fixtures, so no drywall issues.  The cheapest I've found is about $22 each.   But I have tons of them.  I keep thinking I'll find 6-packs or contractor packs of them for cheap "real soon."  That is my "market timing".

Spork, your picture always kinda creeps me out.

LOL

[DarinC]

Nobody has mentioned the lovely toxic mercury that's going in to landfills yet.  I know they are supposed to be recycled but we all know that is not happening to most of them.

That's on the owner really, and the same can be said for a variety or products like batteries, electronics, chemicals (paint/etc), and so on...

Locally, it's crazy easy to recycle all sorts of household hazardous waste (HHW). I can drop some things like CFLs and NiCD batteries off at the local hardware store, or I can just save up everything on a shelf in my garage and drop it off at the local recycling center. I put everything in a bag/box, pop the trunk when I get there, and they grab it all.

I wouldn't worry about Mercury much either...

http://blogs.edf.org/climate411/2007/07/31/cfl_mercury-2/

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/reviews/news/4217864

Of course, if you have sealed recessed cans and you have to change those to put in an LED you might never recover the many hundreds of $$ and effort with drywall, painting etc. 

No idea how LEDs will handle power spikes.  That's a good question - perhpas someone else could chime in.  I do know that in my previous job we had big power spikes and both CFLs and halogen lights (on a 12v line) would last about for about 1 month each before they burned out.  Incanescents didn't do much better, but since the bulbs never lasted long enough to make a difference we were forced to buy whatever was cheapest, which was always the incandescent.

Spork, your picture always kinda creeps me out.

Don't think LED retrofit kits drop into any recessed can, or are the sealed cans different in some way?

In terms of the power spikes, it's pretty easy to test. Just grab some inexpensive LEDs (good ~60W or less bulbs are ~$3 each these days) and leave 'em on.

[Spork]

Don't think LED retrofit kits drop into any recessed can, or are the sealed cans different in some way?

In terms of the power spikes, it's pretty easy to test. Just grab some inexpensive LEDs (good ~60W or less bulbs are ~$3 each these days) and leave 'em on.

I think you're actually quoting me...

There are a ton of 5-6" retrofit kits out there.  They even have a little Edison screw adapter to hook them up.  Similar to this
http://www.amazon.com/quot-Recessed-Light-Trim-Retrofit/dp/B00C6819WW

And yeah: that's how I am testing.  (They're not $3 around here, closer to $10.  You must have some subsidies.)  I have one fixture with 5 LEDs in it.  If it makes it a year, I'll assume we're pretty golden.  Any 120v bulb (CF or incandescent) generally burn out quicker than that at my house.

[dragoncar]

Don't think LED retrofit kits drop into any recessed can, or are the sealed cans different in some way?

In terms of the power spikes, it's pretty easy to test. Just grab some inexpensive LEDs (good ~60W or less bulbs are ~$3 each these days) and leave 'em on.

I think you're actually quoting me...

There are a ton of 5-6" retrofit kits out there.  They even have a little Edison screw adapter to hook them up.  Similar to this
http://www.amazon.com/quot-Recessed-Light-Trim-Retrofit/dp/B00C6819WW

And yeah: that's how I am testing.  (They're not $3 around here, closer to $10.  You must have some subsidies.)  I have one fixture with 5 LEDs in it.  If it makes it a year, I'll assume we're pretty golden.  Any 120v bulb (CF or incandescent) generally burn out quicker than that at my house.

Someone once told me that house line conditioning wasn't that expensive.  Not sure if true, but you may want to look into it.  Would hate to blow a control board on a major appliance (of course, ideally none of your major appliances have digital control boards, but that's a rarity these days).

[Astatine]

I get that.   I've run the numbers with my actual estimated usage.  And the bulbs I need are not $10.  In our case we'd need to replace the fixtures with LED fixtures.

I also live in an area with really sucky power.  I'm skeptical that a 120v LED bulb with sensitive electronics will have much staying power.

Of course, if you have sealed recessed cans and you have to change those to put in an LED you might never recover the many hundreds of $$ and effort with drywall, painting etc. 

No idea how LEDs will handle power spikes.  That's a good question - perhpas someone else could chime in.  I do know that in my previous job we had big power spikes and both CFLs and halogen lights (on a 12v line) would last about for about 1 month each before they burned out.  Incanescents didn't do much better, but since the bulbs never lasted long enough to make a difference we were forced to buy whatever was cheapest, which was always the incandescent.

I live in an area close to a substation and our voltage is higher than standard (I know this cos an electrician acquaintance who I trust was trying to work out for me why the light in our ceiling fan would sometimes not turn on, and he carefully tested the voltage levels as part of the troubleshooting). I don't know how often we get voltage spikes, but everything in our house is running on slightly higher voltage (maybe about 10 volts higher than standard).

We also get a LOT of thunderstorms in summer which can cause the lights to briefly brown out. Incandescents and halogen downlights would invariably die within a day or two of these brown out events. I only have 3 LEDs installed so far (CFLs are taking a LONG time to die, and we replace as they die). One of the LEDs is definitely exposed to whatever fluctuations we get as it's on a timer for 6 hours every evening. (originally started as my el cheapo security system when my next door neighbour got broken into, and I was out every second evening at the time. Then in this house, continued using it for security system as I was still out many evenings, but then realised in a house with not enough light switches, it was also super practical) We've had the LED for 6 months now and it's been great. There's a slightly weird rainbow-ish effect on our ceiling, but it's been great. And I LOVE that we're using less electricity, for many reasons. 

[Spork]

Don't think LED retrofit kits drop into any recessed can, or are the sealed cans different in some way?

In terms of the power spikes, it's pretty easy to test. Just grab some inexpensive LEDs (good ~60W or less bulbs are ~$3 each these days) and leave 'em on.

I think you're actually quoting me...

There are a ton of 5-6" retrofit kits out there.  They even have a little Edison screw adapter to hook them up.  Similar to this
http://www.amazon.com/quot-Recessed-Light-Trim-Retrofit/dp/B00C6819WW

And yeah: that's how I am testing.  (They're not $3 around here, closer to $10.  You must have some subsidies.)  I have one fixture with 5 LEDs in it.  If it makes it a year, I'll assume we're pretty golden.  Any 120v bulb (CF or incandescent) generally burn out quicker than that at my house.

Someone once told me that house line conditioning wasn't that expensive.  Not sure if true, but you may want to look into it.  Would hate to blow a control board on a major appliance (of course, ideally none of your major appliances have digital control boards, but that's a rarity these days).

I've got one.  :)   I bought the biggest one I could find.  And no, it wasn't hugely expensive.   I think about $200.  Even then, they suggest another surge protector at each device -- which isn't real possible for 220v devices.

I've lost: control board on garage door opener,  several LEDs on washer, some little dohickey inside dishwasher,  several disk drives and a Tivo power supply (these things moved to UPS).   If I look in my UPS logs, there are 421 power events in the last year.

I still have issues.  My only hope is that I have fewer issues with the surge control.  I think I'll still have some issues, though.

[Spork]

I get that.   I've run the numbers with my actual estimated usage.  And the bulbs I need are not $10.  In our case we'd need to replace the fixtures with LED fixtures.

I also live in an area with really sucky power.  I'm skeptical that a 120v LED bulb with sensitive electronics will have much staying power.

Of course, if you have sealed recessed cans and you have to change those to put in an LED you might never recover the many hundreds of $$ and effort with drywall, painting etc. 

No idea how LEDs will handle power spikes.  That's a good question - perhpas someone else could chime in.  I do know that in my previous job we had big power spikes and both CFLs and halogen lights (on a 12v line) would last about for about 1 month each before they burned out.  Incanescents didn't do much better, but since the bulbs never lasted long enough to make a difference we were forced to buy whatever was cheapest, which was always the incandescent.

I live in an area close to a substation and our voltage is higher than standard (I know this cos an electrician acquaintance who I trust was trying to work out for me why the light in our ceiling fan would sometimes not turn on, and he carefully tested the voltage levels as part of the troubleshooting). I don't know how often we get voltage spikes, but everything in our house is running on slightly higher voltage (maybe about 10 volts higher than standard).

We also get a LOT of thunderstorms in summer which can cause the lights to briefly brown out. Incandescents and halogen downlights would invariably die within a day or two of these brown out events. I only have 3 LEDs installed so far (CFLs are taking a LONG time to die, and we replace as they die). One of the LEDs is definitely exposed to whatever fluctuations we get as it's on a timer for 6 hours every evening. (originally started as my el cheapo security system when my next door neighbour got broken into, and I was out every second evening at the time. Then in this house, continued using it for security system as I was still out many evenings, but then realised in a house with not enough light switches, it was also super practical) We've had the LED for 6 months now and it's been great. There's a slightly weird rainbow-ish effect on our ceiling, but it's been great. And I LOVE that we're using less electricity, for many reasons.

It's not uncommon in the US for voltage to be higher than 120v.   (I'm not sure what Aus voltage even is...)   I am a nerd.  I have graphs of mine.  It wanders between 122 and 127.  (My graphing is a 5 minute average, so it doesn't catch the drop outs and spikes).
That's why normal incandescents in the US are short lived.  They're designed for 120v.  130v incandescents last a loooong time (but still are just as inefficient.)

It's good to hear they're holding up, though.   

[waltworks]

Home Depot has very nice CREE 60W (~800 lumen) soft white and daylight dimmable LED bulbs for $3-6 (often on sale for $3, but full retail is only $6 I believe). They will fit any standard fixture and run on 11W of juice. Depending on your power prices a bit and usage, they pay for themselves in 6-12 months. 3 year warranty. Visible light produced is indistinguishable from incandescent, at least to my eye.

Edit: Retail is $8. Still a smoking deal.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-60W-Equivalent-Soft-White-2700K-A19-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-with-4Flow-Filament-Design-BA19-08027OMF-12DE26-3U100/205597078?N=5yc1vZbm79

-W

[BlueMR2]

There are a ton of 5-6" retrofit kits out there.  They even have a little Edison screw adapter to hook them up.  Similar to this

Yeah, just be aware that "normal" cans seem to require the "low headroom" retrofit kits.  I've got no idea what one would use in an *actual* low headroom can.  :-)

I put in a $50 9.5w (60w eq) can replacement last year.  Made in USA, nice glass, heavy heat sink, etc.  The cheap made in China version (with plastic and small heatsink) is available for $30 too.

[BlueMR2]

Locally, it's crazy easy to recycle all sorts of household hazardous waste (HHW).

That's one thing that's sorely lacking in my area.

At work, we can't even get recycling service for paper and plastic.  Sigh.

[projekt]

That's one thing that's sorely lacking in my area.

At work, we can't even get recycling service for paper and plastic.  Sigh.

Lowe's and Home Depot both accept CFLs for recycling. Plug your locality into http://search.earth911.com/

[Ricky]

Incandescent's are banned in the US? I see them everywhere...and plenty of online retailers carry them.

[DarinC]

I think you're actually quoting me...

There are a ton of 5-6" retrofit kits out there.  They even have a little Edison screw adapter to hook them up.  Similar to this
http://www.amazon.com/quot-Recessed-Light-Trim-Retrofit/dp/B00C6819WW

And yeah: that's how I am testing.  (They're not $3 around here, closer to $10.  You must have some subsidies.)  I have one fixture with 5 LEDs in it.  If it makes it a year, I'll assume we're pretty golden.  Any 120v bulb (CF or incandescent) generally burn out quicker than that at my house.

Doh! Yeah, wrong post. I was thinking you could just throw any old $3 screw in up there first, and then test the ~$10 retrofits later if that holds up, but $7 isn't a huge difference if the retrofit kit goes out anyway.

[dragoncar]

Incandescent's are banned in the US? I see them everywhere...and plenty of online retailers carry them.

It's not that cut and dried, but they are phasing in a ban on sales.  There are exemptions for various bulb types.  Really I think the ban is on inefficient bulbs, so some incandescents may operate efficiently enough.  Also for decorative applications. 

Like I said I thought it was all silly but the upshot is you'll be hard pressed to find a regular 60w bulb in A regular store, whereas now they have many competitively priced LED bulbs.

Btw for those of you worried, I got that last br40 from Costco at the rebate price.  Really considered getting a 2000lumen work lamp for $30 but am practicing delayed gratification to see if I really need it and check competitive pricing.  They also had a 1000 Lumen flashlight that looked nice for maybe $12? 

The br30s are like a two pack for $12.

I'd still like to see a teardown of my front bulbs... Worried about heat in those cans and no fins on the bulb. 

[Kyle Schuant]

The "frugal" people here are wasteful with energy, and then you can look at an environmentalist forum where they're wasteful with money but frugal with energy. The rationalisations people have here for being wasteful with energy are actually very similar to the rationalisations people have on those forums for being wasteful with money.

Funny how that goes.

[RetiredAt63]

???

Not sure how you got this generalization based on this thread.  Lots of energy conscious people here.  And most (like me) who are still using incandescents are using them under specific circumstances.

For example - the ONLY incandescents in my house are in the main bathroom, and only in winter (CFLs in summer) - they warm the room up just a bit if they are on for a while, which is nice after a shower, and means the rest of the house can have the heat set lower.  Considering it is -27C outside, anything that keeps a smaller differential between outside (-27C) and inside (18C instead of 20C) is good.

The "frugal" people here are wasteful with energy, and then you can look at an environmentalist forum where they're wasteful with money but frugal with energy. The rationalisations people have here for being wasteful with energy are actually very similar to the rationalisations people have on those forums for being wasteful with money.

Funny how that goes.

[OSUBearCub]

I'm a CFL fan.  My intention is to replace them with LEDs as they die but I unfortunately stocked-up when the local electric companies subsidized the price down to $2.80 per three pack.  Thus, it'll be at least 10 years to my first LED bulb.

I used to hate the light color but I've noticed a dramatic improvement between the light of the first 2 bulbs I purchased and the little stockpile of bulbs I purchased a few years later.  My trick to warm up the blue-ish light is to select the right lampshade.  Older shades and cream shades do a very nice job of warming up the tone.

Lastly, as to the government intrusion concerns, I think everyone should take a big deep breath.  There are thousands of products we cannot purchase due to government restrictions.  My mom is sitting on a literal hoard of incandescent bulbs at home for the sole purpose of thumbing her nose at "Big Brother".  Driving around from store to store, buying up the last 10 boxes at each stop, emptying two cabinets, arranging the bulb boxes, and perpetuating an endless rant against the government is sooooooooo much wasted mental/emotional/physical energy.

[ShortStuff]

Does anyone know if there are dimmable CFLs? I was at Walmart yesterday buying a CFL pack, and saw all boxes said "Not Dimmable."
or is that something only LEDs bulbs can do?

[RetiredAt63]

I don't know but I got a dimmable LED flood at Costco that is heavy towards the red end of the spectrum.  It looks just like a regular incandescent flood (looking at the room you can't tell by the light which one is the LED).

Does anyone know if there are dimmable CFLs? I was at Walmart yesterday buying a CFL pack, and saw all boxes said "Not Dimmable."
or is that something only LEDs bulbs can do?

[DarinC]

Does anyone know if there are dimmable CFLs? I was at Walmart yesterday buying a CFL pack, and saw all boxes said "Not Dimmable."
or is that something only LEDs bulbs can do?

There are, but they're IMO prohibitively expensive compared to LEDs now that they've dropped in price.

[rocketpj]

I was at Rona today and saw they had their stocks of 100W incandescents deeply discounted at .99 for a package of 2. It looks like they are having a hard time selling them.
I still won't buy one, I have a few leftover if I need any incandescent lights, and more than a few CFLs as well, but I am strictly buying LEDs now.

[Strabo]

the key assumption here is *IF* LEDs actually give the promised lifetime.  In my experience CFs never did (and incandescents seem to go much longer than estimated).  At $10 an LED... I am absolutely willing to make that bet.  At $20... I hesitate.  I know I am timing the market.  I know that's dumb.

Sure - there's a lot of uncertainty about whether the bulbs will make it to 25,000 hrs (I've heard some engineers claim they'll last far longer, and 25k is just the 'testable limit' right now)

The chip itself will last basically forever. It can run for hundreds, theoretically even thousands of years and still work.
However, two points to consider: It does degrade over time. The quoted numbers on the packaging is usually when the LED will reach 2/3 of the light emitted when you bought it - meaning a 800 Lumen lamp will have 530 Lumen after 15,000h -, not when it will stop working.  But it will get less bright over the years or decades.
Second point: The really limiting factor - as with most things nowadays - is the electronic parts. You do have quite a number of soldered circuits, capacitors and control chips in every LED you buy. And these very likely will not last 100 years. Or even 25. Heat will degrade them more quickly (same with the LED chip itself), which is why LEDs are usually not recommended for closed environments where heat can't dissipate easily - The lights will last quite some time, probably longer than most incandescent bulbs, but they will not last anywhere as long as a LED that gets cooling or is used in a cold environment.

In my experience LEDs do last quite long. My oldest ones are now about 7 years old, still working fine (but technology moves on and they aren't as good as those you get today: they take a1-1.5s to light up, the CRI is lower, they are less efficient than modern LEDs and cost 30-40 € back then compared to 10-20 € for modern, superior ones). Of about 40 LEDs I bought over the years every single one still works - many no longer in my home, as I gift older ones I no longer use to friends and family.

[nereo]

The chip itself will last basically forever. It can run for hundreds, theoretically even thousands of years and still work.
However, two points to consider: It does degrade over time. The quoted numbers on the packaging is usually when the LED will reach 2/3 of the light emitted when you bought it - meaning a 800 Lumen lamp will have 530 Lumen after 15,000h -, not when it will stop working.  But it will get less bright over the years or decades.

Thanks for the more technical explanation.  I think the bottom line though is that the cost of the LED bulb itself can be recouped in 1,000-2,000 hours of operation in electricity savings vs a standard incandescent bulb.  In most applications that's about a year of service, and a small fraction of the bulbs rating when it will emit 2/3rds of the light.  See above for math

Second point: The really limiting factor - as with most things nowadays - is the electronic parts. You do have quite a number of soldered circuits, capacitors and control chips in every LED you buy. And these very likely will not last 100 years. Or even 25. Heat will degrade them more quickly (same with the LED chip itself), which is why LEDs are usually not recommended for closed environments where heat can't dissipate easily - The lights will last quite some time, probably longer than most incandescent bulbs, but they will not last anywhere as long as a LED that gets cooling or is used in a cold environment.

I can see why components would break down in closed environments where heat can't dissipate easily, but I don't understand why they are unlikely to last 25 years in other situations (e.g. in a desk lamp or open fixture).  Looking around I see quite a bit of technology from the 90s that is still up and kicking, from my desk calculator to the digital thermostat on my wall to my stereo on the shelf.  I'd expect components built within the last five years to hold up at least as good if not better than those from the 1990s.
Bottom line though - LEDs don't need to last 25 years or even 5 years to make economic sense.  If an LED makes it to its second birthday with 'normal' usage it's already saved vs the incandescent.

[James]

It's a tough transition, right now LED are just coming into their time, and it will be another year or two of difficult transition. But LED is the obvious long term answer to lighting, so using laws to push that transition makes sense. The technology isn't that hard, just needs a push to get the R&D completed and get products out there at the right quality and price point.


If you don't like CFL, just switch to LED. If you need to use incandescent for a little while fine, stock up for another year or so of usage, but by then LED will be well researched and ready for prime time. (I use them now, that would be my suggestion, just saying you will get there eventually either way) The law that is pushing the switch is a good thing, and that is coming from a fairly libertarian person who only grudgingly accepts government interference in these things.

[Spork]

the key assumption here is *IF* LEDs actually give the promised lifetime.  In my experience CFs never did (and incandescents seem to go much longer than estimated).  At $10 an LED... I am absolutely willing to make that bet.  At $20... I hesitate.  I know I am timing the market.  I know that's dumb.

Sure - there's a lot of uncertainty about whether the bulbs will make it to 25,000 hrs (I've heard some engineers claim they'll last far longer, and 25k is just the 'testable limit' right now)

The chip itself will last basically forever. It can run for hundreds, theoretically even thousands of years and still work.
However, two points to consider: It does degrade over time. The quoted numbers on the packaging is usually when the LED will reach 2/3 of the light emitted when you bought it - meaning a 800 Lumen lamp will have 530 Lumen after 15,000h -, not when it will stop working.  But it will get less bright over the years or decades.
Second point: The really limiting factor - as with most things nowadays - is the electronic parts. You do have quite a number of soldered circuits, capacitors and control chips in every LED you buy. And these very likely will not last 100 years. Or even 25. Heat will degrade them more quickly (same with the LED chip itself), which is why LEDs are usually not recommended for closed environments where heat can't dissipate easily - The lights will last quite some time, probably longer than most incandescent bulbs, but they will not last anywhere as long as a LED that gets cooling or is used in a cold environment.

In my experience LEDs do last quite long. My oldest ones are now about 7 years old, still working fine (but technology moves on and they aren't as good as those you get today: they take a1-1.5s to light up, the CRI is lower, they are less efficient than modern LEDs and cost 30-40 € back then compared to 10-20 € for modern, superior ones). Of about 40 LEDs I bought over the years every single one still works - many no longer in my home, as I gift older ones I no longer use to friends and family.

My worry (already stated above, I know) is that it won't deal well with voltage spikes/drops.  It's a low voltage circuit like any circuit board and I suspect it will act like other sensitive electronics (which don't do well in my house). 

I have a whole-house surge protector and pretty much put satellite surge protectors on everything I can.  I don't know that I can do that with every light bulb.

[dragoncar]

replaced about 10 BR40s with LED and won't be going back.  If you wanna buy them from me, I accept paypal

Just curious... how much did you pay per bulb/fixture.  I got a metric crapton of BR40s.

About $10 each from Costco with $6 utility rebate included in that price... they are inconsistently available (and the rebate is also inconsistent) and I actually miscounted and need 1 more.  I'm waiting for them to come back in at that price.

Woah!  That's awesome.  I've not found them that cheap around here (and I've been unsuccessfully doing "market timing" waiting for them to fall).  Amazon has those for about $21.  Sams around here has replacement can fixtures for about $21.  Sadly: no Costco.

I think it's these: http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Conserv-Energy-Dimmable-BR40-Flood/dp/B00QPL8DRK/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1421868829&sr=8-6&keywords=feit+br40

$19... sounds about right when you consider mine had a rebate.  I'd ship them to you (if they came back), but I think the shipping would kill it.

They are also here:

http://www.costco.com/Feit-BR40-LED-Reflector-%7c-100W-Replacement-%7c-Uses-17W-%7c-1%2c065-Lumens-%7c-2%2c700K-Soft-White-%7c-25%2c000-Hours-%7c-4-Pack.product.100028842.html

Funny how the packaging variously says 100w or 75w equivalent but same lumens and real wattage.

Slickdeal on conversion kits here: http://slickdeals.net/f/7725591-whirlpool-gold-series-recessed-dimmable-led-ceiling-light-kits-from-12-free-ship-to-store

[Astatine]

We just bought a couple more LEDs. This time from a well known brand. Wow! Love it! The light colour is much better (no rainbows). It's a teensy bit bluer than the warm light CFLs, but I'm sure we'll adapt and not notice the difference soon enough. Total convert to LEDs now.


One thing I'm loving so much about CFLs and LEDs is not having to worry about spares and changing bulbs late at night. I absolutely do not miss that at all. (lower electricity usage is also wonderful) Australia has had a ban on incandescent bulbs for quite a while now. 2008? maybe 2009? Can't remember now. Took a while for me to get used to the idea back then, but even if I was given the option now, I wouldn't go back to ye olde lighting technology of incandescents.

[Spork]

Slickdeal on conversion kits here: http://slickdeals.net/f/7725591-whirlpool-gold-series-recessed-dimmable-led-ceiling-light-kits-from-12-free-ship-to-store

drats... out of stock on the one I'd need.  I may pop into the store and see if they have them in house.