The Great Resignation

[ender]

We just got an email this morning that our office--which nobody has returned to yet--is moving to a shittier location in two fucking days and if we could pack up all our personal things that would be great. Please note this is a busy work week and there is not going to be time to pack up anything. Meanwhile, I've been stationed at a nearby studio apartment for the past month to do work that I can much more easily do at home. Completely fucking arbitrary and pointless. I am very close to rage quitting and going back to temping or some bullshit.

Wait, they are paying you to work from a studio apartment close to the office that you're not even going to?  That's truly bizarre.

Yeah, it's so my boss can get around the closed office policy. It's a completely pointless waste of money, but he's a petty tyrant, so...

Update on this. They've opened up the office two days a week for everyone else. I still have to go in to this apartment on the three other days. Nobody else has to. I even proposed that I go in the office on the alternate three days and WFH the other days, since he's worried about coverage. Proposal denied.

I would have quit on the spot but I can't interrupt my health insurance. Thinking about just getting a job at the Apple Store or something because I cannot fucking take this shit anymore.

Would you be eligible for cobra?

[OtherJen]

GQP = Grand Qanon Party?

Got it in one. The GOP fundamentally transformed itself via the Qanon nonsense and bears no resemblance to the party of Reagan.

And yet, looking back over the last 40 years, it seems that GQP was the endgame of Morning in America. (Although really, we need to go back 16 or so years before that to Goldwater. Trump and co. represent the logical progression of that ideology.)

The branch of my husband’s employer in another state is operating on barebones staff because half of theirs quit and they can’t get new hires. The ones who quit did so because they could make $4/hr more elsewhere. Company owner (a GQP type) will not up the pay to remain competitive and of course is blaming the pandemic restrictions and unemployment.

[Cool Friend]

We just got an email this morning that our office--which nobody has returned to yet--is moving to a shittier location in two fucking days and if we could pack up all our personal things that would be great. Please note this is a busy work week and there is not going to be time to pack up anything. Meanwhile, I've been stationed at a nearby studio apartment for the past month to do work that I can much more easily do at home. Completely fucking arbitrary and pointless. I am very close to rage quitting and going back to temping or some bullshit.

Wait, they are paying you to work from a studio apartment close to the office that you're not even going to?  That's truly bizarre.

Yeah, it's so my boss can get around the closed office policy. It's a completely pointless waste of money, but he's a petty tyrant, so...

Update on this. They've opened up the office two days a week for everyone else. I still have to go in to this apartment on the three other days. Nobody else has to. I even proposed that I go in the office on the alternate three days and WFH the other days, since he's worried about coverage. Proposal denied.

I would have quit on the spot but I can't interrupt my health insurance. Thinking about just getting a job at the Apple Store or something because I cannot fucking take this shit anymore.

Would you be eligible for cobra?

I don't think so; I think a company needs minimum 20 employees, and we have about a dozen.

[StarBright]

Related to this (and tangentially to the "What's wrong with men" thread), I'm fighting a couple of boomer/old end of GenX managers to keep flex schedules for everyone to keep some key players from quitting. Yesterday one of the managers said to me, "I don't like remote work for my team. It is so hard to manage everyone." and  "Why doesn't anyone have stay at home wives anymore?"

ugh. 2020 feels like it just keeps on going.

[OtherJen]

Related to this (and tangentially to the "What's wrong with men" thread), I'm fighting a couple of boomer/old end of GenX managers to keep flex schedules for everyone to keep some key players from quitting. Yesterday one of the managers said to me, "I don't like remote work for my team. It is so hard to manage everyone. Why doesn't anyone have stay at home wives anymore?"

ugh. 2020 feels like it just keeps on going.

*head desk*

This does feel like 2020, part B.

[Zamboni]

By "manage" does he mean he wanders around aimlessly looking over random shoulders of the people who actually do productive work? Or his relentless pestering of a few direct reports to him who also have work to do and wish he would just leave them alone? Because I doubt there is a third option . . .

And his stay-at-home wife wants him back in the office because he gets on her nerves. That's what this really comes down to. Read the Zoom, tone deaf fuck.

[StarBright]

By "manage" does he mean he wanders around aimlessly looking over random shoulders of the people who actually do productive work? Or his relentless pestering of a few direct reports to him who also have work to do and wish he would just leave them alone? Because I doubt there is a third option . . .

And his stay-at-home wife wants him back in the office because he gets on her nerves. That's what this really comes down to. Read the Zoom, tone deaf fuck.

He likes walking over to desks to request stuff or discuss as he thinks of it. I was sort of shocked because he is, otherwise, a super progressive and chill sort of dude. But he was really surprised and upset that most of his team wants to stay remote.

And he has been coming in to the office every day since we opened the doors back up and instituted flex last summer.

[Zamboni]

Then, as we thought, it's all about him being bored and needing something to do so he isn't at home all day with his wife. "Chat with me randomly as I have ideas" guy isn't actually as valuable to the company as many of the other employees . . . but I'm sure he thinks he's really valuable. Nice guy or not, he was a meme that I despised when I was in industry.

Sound like everyone else in the group is happier and healthier at home, and the work still gets done well . . . better and more efficiently than ever, in fact, without all of his aimless meetings and added chit chat. He probably described himself as a "global thinker."

People don't leave companies, they leave incompetent managers.

[boarder42]

Then, as we thought, it's all about him being bored and needing something to do so he isn't at home all day with his wife. "Chat with me randomly as I have ideas" guy isn't actually as valuable to the company as many of the other employees . . . but I'm sure he thinks he's really valuable. Nice guy or not, he was a meme that I despised when I was in industry.

Sound like everyone else in the group is happier and healthier at home, and the work still gets done well . . . better and more efficiently than ever, in fact, without all of his aimless meetings and added chit chat. He probably described himself as a "global thinker."

People don't leave companies, they leave incompetent managers.

This last line and the rest of your story is exactly what our coo is like who happens to head my division. Before we forced people back to office there were town Halls and people asked why was performance down etc. And he said no.

His reason. Not enough net new ideas were crossing his doorstep. People werent just dropping by to talk and ask questions.

Oh wait you failed at your job remotely so we have to go back. Maybe these middle management jobs aren't as necessary as we thought. Including the coo who can't do his job

[NorthernIkigai]

He likes walking over to desks to request stuff or discuss as he thinks of it.

Does he not know how to use a phone? Or Teams/Zoom/Meet/etc., if he feels the need for eye contact when he requests and discusses stuff?

[GodlessCommie]

There was a Freakonomics podcast recently that dove into research on remote work. TL;DR: you can do it right, and you can do it wrong. Proximity and water cooler talk is beneficial, but... people mostly interact with a narrow circle of colleagues. Another floor? May as well be another planet. Social events don't help, people continue talking to the same narrow group. But virtual events, when done right, do break those barriers.

[boarder42]

There was a Freakonomics podcast recently that dove into research on remote work. TL;DR: you can do it right, and you can do it wrong. Proximity and water cooler talk is beneficial, but... people mostly interact with a narrow circle of colleagues. Another floor? May as well be another planet. Social events don't help, people continue talking to the same narrow group. But virtual events, when done right, do break those barriers.

Yep x10. Many of our non corp head quarters colleagues felt a part of the company like they hadn't before during covid. This may be the biggest thing management is ignoring.

Oh well I've got FI money. I'm going to work where I please when I return from FMLA. And I'm quitting at the end of the year.

[StarBright]

He likes walking over to desks to request stuff or discuss as he thinks of it.

Does he not know how to use a phone? Or Teams/Zoom/Meet/etc., if he feels the need for eye contact when he requests and discusses stuff?

I do know his previous work background was extremely collaborative and was in one of those 24/7 tech fields.

I think it just takes a lot of effort to schedule work out when you are trying to round up remote people and as a boomer it just might not be something he wants to learn/put effort into?

[TomTX]

There was a Freakonomics podcast recently that dove into research on remote work. TL;DR: you can do it right, and you can do it wrong. Proximity and water cooler talk is beneficial, but... people mostly interact with a narrow circle of colleagues. Another floor? May as well be another planet.

Heck, in my last job they treated a different division on the same floor as if you were having to cross the Pacific.

[mm1970]

Related to this (and tangentially to the "What's wrong with men" thread), I'm fighting a couple of boomer/old end of GenX managers to keep flex schedules for everyone to keep some key players from quitting. Yesterday one of the managers said to me, "I don't like remote work for my team. It is so hard to manage everyone." and  "Why doesn't anyone have stay at home wives anymore?"

ugh. 2020 feels like it just keeps on going.

Double ugh on that.  Back in the day, my husband changed jobs when kid #1 was 1.5 years old.  Oh boy, the number of executives at his new company that in the first couple of company events (summer picnic/holiday party) who wanted to know how I was doing at home with the baby..."fuck are you talking about???"

That was a RUDE awakening, but I guess my DH was one of the very first higher level guys there with a working mom as a wife.  Now there are many/most... they've had to adjust.

He likes walking over to desks to request stuff or discuss as he thinks of it. I was sort of shocked because he is, otherwise, a super progressive and chill sort of dude. But he was really surprised and upset that most of his team wants to stay remote.

There is value in that, I won't lie.  However, I am SO MUCH MORE productive at home because people can't do that to me.  If it's really necessary, they can text/hangouts.  Otherwise, it's CONSTANT questions.

[Michael in ABQ]

I just put in my two weeks notice today. Well more like week and a half. I've got a big meeting/presentation the Tuesday after next and that will be my last day. It feels great knowing all the dozens of balls in the air are no longer my responsibility in 7 more working days.

[markbike528CBX]

There was a Freakonomics podcast recently that dove into research on remote work. TL;DR: you can do it right, and you can do it wrong. Proximity and water cooler talk is beneficial, but... people mostly interact with a narrow circle of colleagues. Another floor? May as well be another planet.

Heck, in my last job they treated a different division on the same floor as if you were having to cross the Pacific.

We always referred to the other side of a small building as "the dark side". Just in jest.
"The dark side" was project managers, and engineers.  We were chemists and health physics techs.

[markbike528CBX]

I just put in my two weeks notice today. Well more like week and a half. I've got a big meeting/presentation the Tuesday after next and that will be my last day. It feels great knowing all the dozens of balls in the air are no longer my responsibility in 7 more working days.

Congratulations!
Is your departure caused by WFH or other issues on this thread, or a more general stepping off the rat wheel?  We thrive on juicy details.

[roomtempmayo]

Then, as we thought, it's all about him being bored and needing something to do so he isn't at home all day with his wife. "Chat with me randomly as I have ideas" guy isn't actually as valuable to the company as many of the other employees . . . but I'm sure he thinks he's really valuable. Nice guy or not, he was a meme that I despised when I was in industry.

Sound like everyone else in the group is happier and healthier at home, and the work still gets done well . . . better and more efficiently than ever, in fact, without all of his aimless meetings and added chit chat. He probably described himself as a "global thinker."

People don't leave companies, they leave incompetent managers.

This last line and the rest of your story is exactly what our coo is like who happens to head my division. Before we forced people back to office there were town Halls and people asked why was performance down etc. And he said no.

His reason. Not enough net new ideas were crossing his doorstep. People werent just dropping by to talk and ask questions.

Oh wait you failed at your job remotely so we have to go back. Maybe these middle management jobs aren't as necessary as we thought. Including the coo who can't do his job

People don't go into management to manage people in any way that can be measured, they go into it to have small but continual sensations of power.

Remote work doesn't give the same sensation of power, so it's unfulfilling for managers.

The solution is to keep people in a position where they can feel a sense of power/fulfillment regularly, i.e. working face-to-face.

Likewise, subordinates grock this dynamic and want to work remote so they aren't continually subordinated.

I don't think there's any great mystery here, it's just a matter of who gets to feel power on a daily basis.

[StarBright]

People don't go into management to manage people in any way that can be measured, they go into it to have small but continual sensations of power.

Remote work doesn't give the same sensation of power, so it's unfulfilling for managers.

The solution is to keep people in a position where they can feel a sense of power/fulfillment regularly, i.e. working face-to-face.

Likewise, subordinates grock this dynamic and want to work remote so they aren't continually subordinated.

I don't think there's any great mystery here, it's just a matter of who gets to feel power on a daily basis.

Not to derail - but some people fall/get pulled into management because of organizational skills or other talents suited to management, not necessarily because they want to be mini Alexanders running tiny empires.

I'll be honest and admit that I get the hate for remote work from managers. I've been remote managing a team for almost a decade and it often feels like a ton of "extra" work to make it go smoothly. But I figure that is why I get paid more and I'm also a (n old) millennial - so this is my world.

The boomer/gen x dudes in my office have been used to making the bucks and getting to walk over whenever they have a question or an idea. The work and communication that go into remote managing are going to be a rude awakening for them.

[Metalcat]

People don't go into management to manage people in any way that can be measured, they go into it to have small but continual sensations of power.

Remote work doesn't give the same sensation of power, so it's unfulfilling for managers.

The solution is to keep people in a position where they can feel a sense of power/fulfillment regularly, i.e. working face-to-face.

Likewise, subordinates grock this dynamic and want to work remote so they aren't continually subordinated.

I don't think there's any great mystery here, it's just a matter of who gets to feel power on a daily basis.

Not to derail - but some people fall/get pulled into management because of organizational skills or other talents suited to management, not necessarily because they want to be mini Alexanders running tiny empires.

I'll be honest and admit that I get the hate for remote work from managers. I've been remote managing a team for almost a decade and it often feels like a ton of "extra" work to make it go smoothly. But I figure that is why I get paid more and I'm also a (n old) millennial - so this is my world.

The boomer/gen x dudes in my office have been used to making the bucks and getting to walk over whenever they have a question or an idea. The work and communication that go into remote managing are going to be a rude awakening for them.

On the flip side, DH and his manager have been finding remote team management so much easier and will never go back to having a full in person team.

[ender]

Yeah, I've loved having a remote manager.

My new manager has been remote for years even before covid.

[Metalcat]

Then, as we thought, it's all about him being bored and needing something to do so he isn't at home all day with his wife. "Chat with me randomly as I have ideas" guy isn't actually as valuable to the company as many of the other employees . . . but I'm sure he thinks he's really valuable. Nice guy or not, he was a meme that I despised when I was in industry.

Sound like everyone else in the group is happier and healthier at home, and the work still gets done well . . . better and more efficiently than ever, in fact, without all of his aimless meetings and added chit chat. He probably described himself as a "global thinker."

People don't leave companies, they leave incompetent managers.

This last line and the rest of your story is exactly what our coo is like who happens to head my division. Before we forced people back to office there were town Halls and people asked why was performance down etc. And he said no.

His reason. Not enough net new ideas were crossing his doorstep. People werent just dropping by to talk and ask questions.

Oh wait you failed at your job remotely so we have to go back. Maybe these middle management jobs aren't as necessary as we thought. Including the coo who can't do his job

People don't go into management to manage people in any way that can be measured, they go into it to have small but continual sensations of power.

Remote work doesn't give the same sensation of power, so it's unfulfilling for managers.

The solution is to keep people in a position where they can feel a sense of power/fulfillment regularly, i.e. working face-to-face.

Likewise, subordinates grock this dynamic and want to work remote so they aren't continually subordinated.

I don't think there's any great mystery here, it's just a matter of who gets to feel power on a daily basis.

Yeah, there are a ton of mediocre, ego driven managers out there, but that's just part of running a business.

I've never worked with an executive or business owner who isn't fully aware that middle management is kind of a wasteland of egos and bullshit, so the smart ones know they have to implement systems and structures to mitigate that.

But at the end of the day, middle management is almost always a talent bottle neck. It's the role that's the hardest to maintain good people because it's a shit role. There's huge responsibility and no real power or autonomy, so anyone who's actually really good at it is likely to move up and out as quickly as possible, often to another company.

So yeah, a lot of low/middle managers suck, but it has to be accounted for within the corporate design.

[ender]

That's also where people start their career as managers so even if they are destined for greatness, they still will make more mistakes than normal.

[Anon-E-Mouze]

I wish enough people would quit in my husband's field (software project management in the financial services sector) so that he could get a job. He's been out of work for most of the last 18 months, is 57 going on 58, and no one seems interested.

I'm very fortunate to be working for an employer (360+ lawyer firm) that is working really hard to implement a flexible return to the office strategy that takes into account feedback from all of its nearly 1,000 employees on what they need and what they want. They've also introduced some new benefits (including a significant increase in reimbursement for mental health care) and are trying hard to make sure that people are able to schedule and actually take their vacations. I expect that at least 95% of our employees are going to be able to work from home at least part-time if they want, once we get back to "normal".

[boarder42]

I wish enough people would quit in my husband's field (software project management in the financial services sector) so that he could get a job. He's been out of work for most of the last 18 months, is 57 going on 58, and no one seems interested.

I'm very fortunate to be working for an employer (360+ lawyer firm) that is working really hard to implement a flexible return to the office strategy that takes into account feedback from all of its nearly 1,000 employees on what they need and what they want. They've also introduced some new benefits (including a significant increase in reimbursement for mental health care) and are trying hard to make sure that people are able to schedule and actually take their vacations. I expect that at least 95% of our employees are going to be able to work from home at least part-time if they want, once we get back to "normal".

He should just build his own financial services software. I can think of some cool education and auto investment options that would be fantastic. Just hire people in India to do the programming.

[Anon-E-Mouze]

I wish enough people would quit in my husband's field (software project management in the financial services sector) so that he could get a job. He's been out of work for most of the last 18 months, is 57 going on 58, and no one seems interested.

I'm very fortunate to be working for an employer (360+ lawyer firm) that is working really hard to implement a flexible return to the office strategy that takes into account feedback from all of its nearly 1,000 employees on what they need and what they want. They've also introduced some new benefits (including a significant increase in reimbursement for mental health care) and are trying hard to make sure that people are able to schedule and actually take their vacations. I expect that at least 95% of our employees are going to be able to work from home at least part-time if they want, once we get back to "normal".

He should just build his own financial services software. I can think of some cool education and auto investment options that would be fantastic. Just hire people in India to do the programming.

Yikes, no thanks. I'm an ex-financial services regulator and used to work for a law firm that advised start-ups in the financial services sector. Too much headache, too many risks, crowded start-up field, nope, nope, nope ...

[Metalcat]

That's also where people start their career as managers so even if they are destined for greatness, they still will make more mistakes than normal.

Yep, and then once they get their sea legs, they move on to better things.

Middle management is simply not a tier where you have a large proportion of great staff doing their best. That's not a criticism, it's just a reality of corporate organization that good executives know how to account for in their management systems.

[ender]

That's also where people start their career as managers so even if they are destined for greatness, they still will make more mistakes than normal.

Yep, and then once they get their sea legs, they move on to better things.

Middle management is simply not a tier where you have a large proportion of great staff doing their best. That's not a criticism, it's just a reality of corporate organization that good executives know how to account for in their management systems.

A lot of people just assume management is a promotion. And therefore, just a continuation of something you are good at already.

It's not, in almost all cases it's a sideways move from a skills perspective. So people who are junior managers are effectively starting from scratch.

If you're lucky you'll end up with the manager going to the role because they are naturally good at people skills.

But... if they see it as a promotion (and to be fair a lot of companies make management the only viable career trajectory) you're pretty much screwed.

[boarder42]

That's also where people start their career as managers so even if they are destined for greatness, they still will make more mistakes than normal.

Yep, and then once they get their sea legs, they move on to better things.

Middle management is simply not a tier where you have a large proportion of great staff doing their best. That's not a criticism, it's just a reality of corporate organization that good executives know how to account for in their management systems.

A lot of people just assume management is a promotion. And therefore, just a continuation of something you are good at already.

It's not, in almost all cases it's a sideways move from a skills perspective. So people who are junior managers are effectively starting from scratch.

If you're lucky you'll end up with the manager going to the role because they are naturally good at people skills.

But... if they see it as a promotion (and to be fair a lot of companies make management the only viable career trajectory) you're pretty much screwed.

Somehow my team is functioning while I'm gone not in the office watching them. Can't wait to get back and watch them to make sure they're working. Oh wait that's not how I manage. Get your shit done I don't care where when or how you do it.

[OtherJen]

That's also where people start their career as managers so even if they are destined for greatness, they still will make more mistakes than normal.

Yep, and then once they get their sea legs, they move on to better things.

Middle management is simply not a tier where you have a large proportion of great staff doing their best. That's not a criticism, it's just a reality of corporate organization that good executives know how to account for in their management systems.

A lot of people just assume management is a promotion. And therefore, just a continuation of something you are good at already.

It's not, in almost all cases it's a sideways move from a skills perspective. So people who are junior managers are effectively starting from scratch.

If you're lucky you'll end up with the manager going to the role because they are naturally good at people skills.

But... if they see it as a promotion (and to be fair a lot of companies make management the only viable career trajectory) you're pretty much screwed.

Somehow my team is functioning while I'm gone not in the office watching them. Can't wait to get back and watch them to make sure they're working. Oh wait that's not how I manage. Get your shit done I don't care where when or how you do it.

Right?! I accepted a 100% remote management position last year. I wouldn’t want to do this job in person. My supervisees are adults. As long as they meet their deadlines and do satisfactory work, I don’t care where or when they do it. If I need to meet with them, a quick Zoom can be arranged.

[Michael in ABQ]

Then, as we thought, it's all about him being bored and needing something to do so he isn't at home all day with his wife. "Chat with me randomly as I have ideas" guy isn't actually as valuable to the company as many of the other employees . . . but I'm sure he thinks he's really valuable. Nice guy or not, he was a meme that I despised when I was in industry.

Sound like everyone else in the group is happier and healthier at home, and the work still gets done well . . . better and more efficiently than ever, in fact, without all of his aimless meetings and added chit chat. He probably described himself as a "global thinker."

People don't leave companies, they leave incompetent managers.

This last line and the rest of your story is exactly what our coo is like who happens to head my division. Before we forced people back to office there were town Halls and people asked why was performance down etc. And he said no.

His reason. Not enough net new ideas were crossing his doorstep. People werent just dropping by to talk and ask questions.

Oh wait you failed at your job remotely so we have to go back. Maybe these middle management jobs aren't as necessary as we thought. Including the coo who can't do his job

People don't go into management to manage people in any way that can be measured, they go into it to have small but continual sensations of power.

Remote work doesn't give the same sensation of power, so it's unfulfilling for managers.

The solution is to keep people in a position where they can feel a sense of power/fulfillment regularly, i.e. working face-to-face.

Likewise, subordinates grock this dynamic and want to work remote so they aren't continually subordinated.

I don't think there's any great mystery here, it's just a matter of who gets to feel power on a daily basis.

I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years by seeing my role as a manager/leader to provide purpose, direction, and motivation while operating to accomplish the mission and improve the organization.

[use2betrix]

Then, as we thought, it's all about him being bored and needing something to do so he isn't at home all day with his wife. "Chat with me randomly as I have ideas" guy isn't actually as valuable to the company as many of the other employees . . . but I'm sure he thinks he's really valuable. Nice guy or not, he was a meme that I despised when I was in industry.

Sound like everyone else in the group is happier and healthier at home, and the work still gets done well . . . better and more efficiently than ever, in fact, without all of his aimless meetings and added chit chat. He probably described himself as a "global thinker."

People don't leave companies, they leave incompetent managers.

This last line and the rest of your story is exactly what our coo is like who happens to head my division. Before we forced people back to office there were town Halls and people asked why was performance down etc. And he said no.

His reason. Not enough net new ideas were crossing his doorstep. People werent just dropping by to talk and ask questions.

Oh wait you failed at your job remotely so we have to go back. Maybe these middle management jobs aren't as necessary as we thought. Including the coo who can't do his job

People don't go into management to manage people in any way that can be measured, they go into it to have small but continual sensations of power.

Remote work doesn't give the same sensation of power, so it's unfulfilling for managers.

The solution is to keep people in a position where they can feel a sense of power/fulfillment regularly, i.e. working face-to-face.

Likewise, subordinates grock this dynamic and want to work remote so they aren't continually subordinated.

I don't think there's any great mystery here, it's just a matter of who gets to feel power on a daily basis.

Sounds like you’ve had a lot of bad managers. I hope that these blanket statements don’t immediately project a jaded review as you become exposed to some good ones.

I am a manager and while many of my personnel HAVE to be at work (they have physical oversight of people and activities that are required for operations), I prefer to work from home, albeit it’s rare I’m able to. If I was allowed, I’d work remote 2-3 days per week. I’m far more productive at home as I don’t get people in and out of my office all day. At one point Friday I had 6 separate people waiting outside my office to speak to me. When I’m remote, people have more tendencies to figure things out for themselves or make sure when they call, they are prepared and to the point.

In regards to managing my people who have to be on site, they’re all adults and responsible and don’t need physical oversight to do their jobs. If they need something, they reach out, and vice versa.

[JJ-]

Then, as we thought, it's all about him being bored and needing something to do so he isn't at home all day with his wife. "Chat with me randomly as I have ideas" guy isn't actually as valuable to the company as many of the other employees . . . but I'm sure he thinks he's really valuable. Nice guy or not, he was a meme that I despised when I was in industry.

Sound like everyone else in the group is happier and healthier at home, and the work still gets done well . . . better and more efficiently than ever, in fact, without all of his aimless meetings and added chit chat. He probably described himself as a "global thinker."

People don't leave companies, they leave incompetent managers.

This last line and the rest of your story is exactly what our coo is like who happens to head my division. Before we forced people back to office there were town Halls and people asked why was performance down etc. And he said no.

His reason. Not enough net new ideas were crossing his doorstep. People werent just dropping by to talk and ask questions.

Oh wait you failed at your job remotely so we have to go back. Maybe these middle management jobs aren't as necessary as we thought. Including the coo who can't do his job

People don't go into management to manage people in any way that can be measured, they go into it to have small but continual sensations of power.

Remote work doesn't give the same sensation of power, so it's unfulfilling for managers.

The solution is to keep people in a position where they can feel a sense of power/fulfillment regularly, i.e. working face-to-face.

Likewise, subordinates grock this dynamic and want to work remote so they aren't continually subordinated.

I don't think there's any great mystery here, it's just a matter of who gets to feel power on a daily basis.

Sounds like you’ve had a lot of bad managers. I hope that these blanket statements don’t immediately project a jaded review as you become exposed to some good ones.

I am a manager and while many of my personnel HAVE to be at work (they have physical oversight of people and activities that are required for operations), I prefer to work from home, albeit it’s rare I’m able to. If I was allowed, I’d work remote 2-3 days per week. I’m far more productive at home as I don’t get people in and out of my office all day. At one point Friday I had 6 separate people waiting outside my office to speak to me. When I’m remote, people have more tendencies to figure things out for themselves or make sure when they call, they are prepared and to the point.

In regards to managing my people who have to be on site, they’re all adults and responsible and don’t need physical oversight to do their jobs. If they need something, they reach out, and vice versa.

Teaching new folks or those who have had bad managers how to ask for help is always interesting. Most of the time they catch on after a few iterations, understanding I'm not after them but just want to help them get the job done. The ones that don't pick it up are the ones that don't last very long as either their work is sub par or takes too long to complete, and they are replaced. This is <10% of the time.

Communication and group productivity are more important for me than, for example, one person who thinks they can do it all. I've never met somebody like that though. Even the most incredibly competent folks have said "this is out of my wheelhouse" and ask for help.

[boarder42]

Then, as we thought, it's all about him being bored and needing something to do so he isn't at home all day with his wife. "Chat with me randomly as I have ideas" guy isn't actually as valuable to the company as many of the other employees . . . but I'm sure he thinks he's really valuable. Nice guy or not, he was a meme that I despised when I was in industry.

Sound like everyone else in the group is happier and healthier at home, and the work still gets done well . . . better and more efficiently than ever, in fact, without all of his aimless meetings and added chit chat. He probably described himself as a "global thinker."

People don't leave companies, they leave incompetent managers.

This last line and the rest of your story is exactly what our coo is like who happens to head my division. Before we forced people back to office there were town Halls and people asked why was performance down etc. And he said no.

His reason. Not enough net new ideas were crossing his doorstep. People werent just dropping by to talk and ask questions.

Oh wait you failed at your job remotely so we have to go back. Maybe these middle management jobs aren't as necessary as we thought. Including the coo who can't do his job

People don't go into management to manage people in any way that can be measured, they go into it to have small but continual sensations of power.

Remote work doesn't give the same sensation of power, so it's unfulfilling for managers.

The solution is to keep people in a position where they can feel a sense of power/fulfillment regularly, i.e. working face-to-face.

Likewise, subordinates grock this dynamic and want to work remote so they aren't continually subordinated.

I don't think there's any great mystery here, it's just a matter of who gets to feel power on a daily basis.

Sounds like you’ve had a lot of bad managers. I hope that these blanket statements don’t immediately project a jaded review as you become exposed to some good ones.

I am a manager and while many of my personnel HAVE to be at work (they have physical oversight of people and activities that are required for operations), I prefer to work from home, albeit it’s rare I’m able to. If I was allowed, I’d work remote 2-3 days per week. I’m far more productive at home as I don’t get people in and out of my office all day. At one point Friday I had 6 separate people waiting outside my office to speak to me. When I’m remote, people have more tendencies to figure things out for themselves or make sure when they call, they are prepared and to the point.

In regards to managing my people who have to be on site, they’re all adults and responsible and don’t need physical oversight to do their jobs. If they need something, they reach out, and vice versa.

Teaching new folks or those who have had bad managers how to ask for help is always interesting. Most of the time they catch on after a few iterations, understanding I'm not after them but just want to help them get the job done. The ones that don't pick it up are the ones that don't last very long as either their work is sub par or takes too long to complete, and they are replaced. This is <10% of the time.

Communication and group productivity are more important for me than, for example, one person who thinks they can do it all. I've never met somebody like that though. Even the most incredibly competent folks have said "this is out of my wheelhouse" and ask for help.

Agreed these are the best people. And it's one of the things I teach my new hires from day 1. We hire kids who are basically straight A all of their lives and most aren't great at asking for help so it takes a bit to teach them but the ones who pick it up succeed

[ysette9]

I suspect a lot of companies don’t know how to select managers correctly or don’t want to go to the trouble. I spent the last five years of my career in management and I loved it. The command I worked for did a good job, in my opinion, of selecting people with the right motivations. (Though clearly not 100% perfect) Managers didn’t get paid any more than individual contributors at the same level to discourage people who might want to become a leader just for more $. The selection process was around the leadership competencies with hopes of screening out those without the right skills.

Personally I loved the feeling of helping people out in my role as a manager. Clearing the path for them to get their stuff done. Providing them the missing piece of info or connecting them with another resource of opportunity so they could do their job better. I got a lot of satisfaction out of that. It was so a lot of responsibility and it weighed on me at times wondering whether I was treating people fairly. I’d like to think I did a good job.

[JJ-]

I suspect a lot of companies don’t know how to select managers correctly or don’t want to go to the trouble. I spent the last five years of my career in management and I loved it. The command I worked for did a good job, in my opinion, of selecting people with the right motivations. (Though clearly not 100% perfect) Managers didn’t get paid any more than individual contributors at the same level to discourage people who might want to become a leader just for more $. The selection process was around the leadership competencies with hopes of screening out those without the right skills.

Personally I loved the feeling of helping people out in my role as a manager. Clearing the path for them to get their stuff done. Providing them the missing piece of info or connecting them with another resource of opportunity so they could do their job better. I got a lot of satisfaction out of that. It was so a lot of responsibility and it weighed on me at times wondering whether I was treating people fairly. I’d like to think I did a good job.

If you were doing what you think was right I'm sure you a good job, especially based on what you just said.

[nick663]

I suspect a lot of companies don’t know how to select managers correctly or don’t want to go to the trouble. I spent the last five years of my career in management and I loved it. The command I worked for did a good job, in my opinion, of selecting people with the right motivations. (Though clearly not 100% perfect) Managers didn’t get paid any more than individual contributors at the same level to discourage people who might want to become a leader just for more $. The selection process was around the leadership competencies with hopes of screening out those without the right skills.

I'm going to guess you're not in Engineering?  Because I feel like very few Engineers have interest in going away from the technical side to manage people even with the pay bump.

Among the people I've discussed it with, it's pretty much universal that the ideal role is either a technical specialist or high level engineering position where you get to do technical work while only being responsible for your own output.  That's not to say we don't have great managers... it's just all things being equal, that isn't their ideal position.

[boarder42]

I suspect a lot of companies don’t know how to select managers correctly or don’t want to go to the trouble. I spent the last five years of my career in management and I loved it. The command I worked for did a good job, in my opinion, of selecting people with the right motivations. (Though clearly not 100% perfect) Managers didn’t get paid any more than individual contributors at the same level to discourage people who might want to become a leader just for more $. The selection process was around the leadership competencies with hopes of screening out those without the right skills.

I'm going to guess you're not in Engineering?  Because I feel like very few Engineers have interest in going away from the technical side to manage people even with the pay bump.

Among the people I've discussed it with, it's pretty much universal that the ideal role is either a technical specialist or high level engineering position where you get to do technical work while only being responsible for your own output.  That's not to say we don't have great managers... it's just all things being equal, that isn't their ideal position.

Yep. I'm A typical for an engineer. But happen to be one by degree. It's so easy to be a great manager amongst a bunch of people who were good engineers who were made to be managers. And given no real training. Oh and most of them hate it. Really easy job for me though 

[StarBright]

People don't go into management to manage people in any way that can be measured, they go into it to have small but continual sensations of power.

Remote work doesn't give the same sensation of power, so it's unfulfilling for managers.

The solution is to keep people in a position where they can feel a sense of power/fulfillment regularly, i.e. working face-to-face.

Likewise, subordinates grock this dynamic and want to work remote so they aren't continually subordinated.

I don't think there's any great mystery here, it's just a matter of who gets to feel power on a daily basis.

Not to derail - but some people fall/get pulled into management because of organizational skills or other talents suited to management, not necessarily because they want to be mini Alexanders running tiny empires.

I'll be honest and admit that I get the hate for remote work from managers. I've been remote managing a team for almost a decade and it often feels like a ton of "extra" work to make it go smoothly. But I figure that is why I get paid more and I'm also a (n old) millennial - so this is my world.

The boomer/gen x dudes in my office have been used to making the bucks and getting to walk over whenever they have a question or an idea. The work and communication that go into remote managing are going to be a rude awakening for them.

On the flip side, DH and his manager have been finding remote team management so much easier and will never go back to having a full in person team.

I absolutely believe remote managing can be easier depending on the team, environment/company philosophy and tools.

We were talking over in a journal recently about not being given the right tools for project management and all the extra (and stupid) work that creates. Things mentioned were spending hours deleting old emails because company won't pay for more storage, the extra time spent organizing and finding spreadsheets because company won't pay for CRM or Teams-like package, individual phonecalls instead of zooms because we don't have zoom. Stuff like that.

[ysette9]

I suspect a lot of companies don’t know how to select managers correctly or don’t want to go to the trouble. I spent the last five years of my career in management and I loved it. The command I worked for did a good job, in my opinion, of selecting people with the right motivations. (Though clearly not 100% perfect) Managers didn’t get paid any more than individual contributors at the same level to discourage people who might want to become a leader just for more $. The selection process was around the leadership competencies with hopes of screening out those without the right skills.

I'm going to guess you're not in Engineering?  Because I feel like very few Engineers have interest in going away from the technical side to manage people even with the pay bump.

Among the people I've discussed it with, it's pretty much universal that the ideal role is either a technical specialist or high level engineering position where you get to do technical work while only being responsible for your own output.  That's not to say we don't have great managers... it's just all things being equal, that isn't their ideal position.

I was in engineering

[boarder42]

I suspect a lot of companies don’t know how to select managers correctly or don’t want to go to the trouble. I spent the last five years of my career in management and I loved it. The command I worked for did a good job, in my opinion, of selecting people with the right motivations. (Though clearly not 100% perfect) Managers didn’t get paid any more than individual contributors at the same level to discourage people who might want to become a leader just for more $. The selection process was around the leadership competencies with hopes of screening out those without the right skills.

I'm going to guess you're not in Engineering?  Because I feel like very few Engineers have interest in going away from the technical side to manage people even with the pay bump.

Among the people I've discussed it with, it's pretty much universal that the ideal role is either a technical specialist or high level engineering position where you get to do technical work while only being responsible for your own output.  That's not to say we don't have great managers... it's just all things being equal, that isn't their ideal position.

I was in engineering

This is why good managers with engineering degrees get paid more bc they are so rare.

[Zamboni]

^Well, the bad engineering managers also get paid more because of the supply-and-demand issue with most technical people wanting to stay technical . . .

[boarder42]

^Well, the bad engineering managers also get paid more because of the supply-and-demand issue with most technical people wanting to stay technical . . .

To some level yeah I was comparing good vs bad managers to each other vs to people who stay technical. 100% supply and demand. My company is trying to make a technical path but there is still a glut of talent on that side

[mm1970]

Not to derail - but some people fall/get pulled into management because of organizational skills or other talents suited to management, not necessarily because they want to be mini Alexanders running tiny empires.

Yup.

Almost like being punished, in a way.

But at the end of the day, middle management is almost always a talent bottle neck. It's the role that's the hardest to maintain good people because it's a shit role. There's huge responsibility and no real power or autonomy, so anyone who's actually really good at it is likely to move up and out as quickly as possible, often to another company.

This is a perfect definition.

Communication and group productivity are more important for me than, for example, one person who thinks they can do it all. I've never met somebody like that though. Even the most incredibly competent folks have said "this is out of my wheelhouse" and ask for help.

My big problem is I know how to do so many things, that people who "can't figure it out" ask me for help.

I'm going to guess you're not in Engineering?  Because I feel like very few Engineers have interest in going away from the technical side to manage people even with the pay bump.

Among the people I've discussed it with, it's pretty much universal that the ideal role is either a technical specialist or high level engineering position where you get to do technical work while only being responsible for your own output.  That's not to say we don't have great managers... it's just all things being equal, that isn't their ideal position.

This is very true (although I know ysette was in eng).  I would MUCH rather be back in my product engineering role or my fab engineering role than what I'm doing now.   The engineers that want to be managers are few and far between, and the last one I knew really was just trying to work his way to being a VP.

We were talking over in a journal recently about not being given the right tools for project management and all the extra (and stupid) work that creates. Things mentioned were spending hours deleting old emails because company won't pay for more storage, the extra time spent organizing and finding spreadsheets because company won't pay for CRM or Teams-like package, individual phonecalls instead of zooms because we don't have zoom. Stuff like that.

ah ha ha, sigh.

[Mini-Mer]

When I was still working (I am retired), management believed that anyone who was not an attorney (it was a law firm) had to be in the office physically because they would just goof off otherwise.  If they couldn't see you physically at your desk, you must be shirking.  I saw that attitude as being highly disrespectful of the firm's staff, because the assumption was that if a person didn't have a law degree, they were automatically deemed to be shiftless and lazy.  I did hear that everyone, including staff, worked from home after March of 2020 and wonder how that worked out for them and if management's attitudes have changed at all.

Management's attitudes have not changed at my law firm!  We just got called back in, with one week's notice.  I've been asking for more work for weeks, and there has been no hint that there was work available and going undone at the office.  So it's a surprise that they now need everyone back, just in time for a Covid spike.  I suspect that they feel the office is just not properly decorated without us. 

The twist: I am shiftless and lazy - so lazy that I have not applied for other jobs for many years.  I may end up sticking it out, but this job has a few other annoying features, and a requirement to go be office furniture is certainly a straw, if not the last one.  I'm working on my resume. 

[less4success]

[The] real “Great Resignation” ... was when so many of us resigned ourselves to office jobs in the first place.

From: http://newescapologist.co.uk/2021/08/12/the-great-resignation/

[ender]

This article came up in a slack group I'm part of.

Interesting that pretty much everyone I know who has taken a new role (admittedly in tech) has gotten a massive raise doing so.

Myself included.

I'm sure companies won't care about this type of thing though and will instead blame other causes...