The financial ruin of drug addiction

[Adam Zapple]

Unfortunately, I have a family member with a drug addiction that is taking a serious turn for the worse.  He is extremely hard working but after 8 years of work as an adult, including several making 6 figures, he doesn't have a dime.  He's at the precipice of losing it all, including his home, job and a long term relationship with his live in girlfriend.  He works 7 days a week just to stay afloat.  I can't imagine the position he'd be in if he wasn't a high earner and didn't have the ability to earn extra with overtime.

I'm sure others have dealt with this but the strain this is putting on our entire family is devastating.  We are angry, sad and afraid for him.  I guess I am just looking to commiserate and maybe start a thread to serve as a warning to those who may dabble with recreational drugs and encourage them to find a more productive hobby.

[dandarc]

Feeling for you. My own family member, who's drug addiction dates back to high school - 17 years and counting is currently doing well since December. Never had the "high earning job" to keep things going or possibly lose, but has had "enabling family" the whole time.

I hope your family member turns it around, although even if he does that won't be an end to the strain on everyone involved. Once sober, everyone knows how tenuous it is and how quickly things escalate if there is a relapse, so the stress / worry doesn't just disappear. Pretty well sucks all around.

[Laserjet3051]

I can empathize as I have had several close family members and friends die of drug addiction over the years. One of the most important things i learned is that the addiction can only be turned around from internal willpower. No amount of external forces (friends, family, coercion) can move the dial. It has to come from within and may require monumental strength and persistence. Best of luck.

[Awesomeness]

My ex of 26 years turned into an alcoholic.  Same behaviors as drugs and it is devastating. If he hadn’t been in the military earning a pension me and the kids would be in a world of hurt. He threw us away like we were garbage all to live a life focused solely on feeding his urges.  I got 30 grand a year, healthcare and half our savings, about 80k.  I’m thankful for every penny.  He’s out of our lives forever and at least for me that’ll be permanent. Our kids are in their 20’s and have shown no signs of ever wanting to see him again.  It got to the point where he was dragging us all down w him and that wasn’t an option, we did all we could.  Unfortunately the world is full of enablers. He’s married to a bar tender now. You’d think losing your family would be your bottom.  Nope. Just go get a new family and keep going. It’s nuts.

Good for you for caring.  I reached out to my exes family and they did nothing. I was shocked. We have no contact w them now too.  Lost him and half our family at the same time, I thought they were better, hard times reveal who people really are inside.  My kids and I are solid and even more close than ever.  Life goes on.  As I write on the internet in the middle of the night, it’s the gift that keeps giving but things are much better. 

[A Fella from Stella]

Multiple stories here.

Gambling: If you can stand it, read the book "Born to Lose," by Bill Lee. His father was lost in a bet, and he, as a child, began gambling heavily. It's so well written, and really lays out how horrible this disease is.

Drugs & Alcohol: A cousin of mine is a big drinker and pot smoker. She has a good job and has been working in her field for about 15 years, but is completely dependent on her mother. She lives in her home, and has nothing saved. Being inebriated leads to losing money (lost wallet, etc.), hanging out with people who she "helps," and other things of that sort.

Alcohol: I have a very good friend who drinks every day. He makes good money, but is renting a condo when he'd rather buy a house. I began to really understand his situation when he and his wife treated my wife and I to a wine tour. We had so much fun. My wife and both got drunk, and were cut off, which is apparently "just not done" at those sorts of places, and it was a great memory that brought us closer to these friends. They even bought us 2 bottles of wine to take home, which, while great on site, seemed not so impressive when at home.

Later on, I found that they subscribe to a very expensive wine club, and also a cigar club, and whenever they go out it's never without a big drink bill. I have to admit, this was all foreign to me. My wife and I almost always order water at a restaurant.

[size=14ptTHE BIG COST FOR THESE FRIENDS[/size] is that they both want to have a child, but don't want to stop drinking. I have never seen them drink to excess, but to not drink at all just seems unbearable to them.

[Just Joe]

I've watched a coworker who is not a high earner and has spent thousands of dollars trying to fix their child's addiction. The cost of rehab and lawyers for the man-child has really hurt the coworker's finances.

I think things may be improving since they finally sent the grown child packing. Its tough to have habits and keep a roof over yourself apparently.

Have watched various people struggle with alcohol, pills, and drugs all my life. It was a good education. No desire to try to do those things recreationally. 

I'll have a drink or two but that's about it.

On a side note a coworker just stopped by. Reeks of weed. Must have had that for lunch. That was unexpected.

[SunnyDays]

Well, he will probably have to hit rock bottom before he’s motivated to change.  Hard to watch, I’m sure, but only he has the power to change his life.  How can he work so hard if he’s always drugged up?  And when does he have time for drugs if he works so hard?

[Just Joe]

Well, he will probably have to hit rock bottom before he’s motivated to change.  Hard to watch, I’m sure, but only he has the power to change his life.  How can he work so hard if he’s always drugged up?  And when does he have time for drugs if he works so hard?

In my post there were two coworkers. The first one whose grown child is struggling. The second coworker who smoked lunchtime away apparently. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[honeybbq]

My step son is a drug addict. It is horrible: for the afflicted person, and for their family who can do nothing but watch them slowly kill themselves every day. There is nothing a family can do, there is nothing a rehab center can (really) do. You just have to stand by and watch your child die. It is just devastating.

[Tass]

Obviously this is on a smaller scale, but I'm pretty mad about the way vaping has reintroduced nicotine addiction to a population that was in the process of leaving it behind. Nicotine doesn't usually ruin people financially, but it certainly flushes a lot of money down the drain.

I have watched some more serious drug addictions from a distance, but don't feel those stories are mine to share. I'll just agree they are heartbreaking.

[ketchup]

Obviously this is on a smaller scale, but I'm pretty mad about the way vaping has reintroduced nicotine addiction to a population that was in the process of leaving it behind. Nicotine doesn't usually ruin people financially, but it certainly flushes a lot of money down the drain.

I have watched some more serious drug addictions from a distance, but don't feel those stories are mine to share. I'll just agree they are heartbreaking.

Vaping is great because it's "not as bad", but also is awful because it's "not as bad."  I know someone that used it to wean himself off nicotine and quit smoking completely, but I know it's a big problem with teens right now.

I have a family member that has struggled with drugs and addiction for years.  She bounces around from family member to family member until they get sick of her and kick her out, us included.  She makes it so hard.

[Adam Zapple]

Well, he will probably have to hit rock bottom before he’s motivated to change.  Hard to watch, I’m sure, but only he has the power to change his life.  How can he work so hard if he’s always drugged up?  And when does he have time for drugs if he works so hard?

There are a lot of people who are functional addicts.  He takes pills, which are easy, and works a physically demanding job with other people who also have various dependency issues.  He is always high.

[Tass]

Obviously this is on a smaller scale, but I'm pretty mad about the way vaping has reintroduced nicotine addiction to a population that was in the process of leaving it behind. Nicotine doesn't usually ruin people financially, but it certainly flushes a lot of money down the drain.

I have watched some more serious drug addictions from a distance, but don't feel those stories are mine to share. I'll just agree they are heartbreaking.

Vaping is great because it's "not as bad", but also is awful because it's "not as bad."  I know someone that used it to wean himself off nicotine and quit smoking completely, but I know it's a big problem with teens right now.

Yeah, I mean, if vaping keeps you away from heroin or meth, that's awesome. The "cool" image with teenagers is what's frustrating.

[Dee]

I'm currently worried about someone I care about becoming destitute due to overspending due to drug/alcohol dependency used to self-medicate serious mental health issues. I have enough history with this person that I can usually detach but I've been going through a bout of real worry and real soul-searching about what I am willing and unwilling to do, trying to identify boundaries before they are needed. Here's hoping for a positive outcome for all the people mentioned in this thread who are still hanging in there.

[mozar]

It's a myth that there is a bottom. As someone who has worked really hard to get what they have (I mean all of us here) It's really hard to understand that the addicted person is willing to throw it all away. But an addicted person doesn't see it the same way.

[Sugaree]

My first husband had both a drug problem and a keeping-up-with-the-Joneses problem.  Luckily, I got out before he could drag me all the way down or we had kids together.

[Tass]

It's a myth that there is a bottom. As someone who has worked really hard to get what they have (I mean all of us here) It's really hard to understand that the addicted person is willing to throw it all away. But an addicted person doesn't see it the same way.

Some people lose everything and therefore decide there is no reason to keep fighting. "Hitting bottom" can be a wakeup call, or it can be the beginning of a spiral even further downward. I am seeing this happen, and it is hard to imagine that anything more could possibly motivate this person to get clean. I hope I'm wrong.

[BlueHouse]

Obviously this is on a smaller scale, but I'm pretty mad about the way vaping has reintroduced nicotine addiction to a population that was in the process of leaving it behind. Nicotine doesn't usually ruin people financially, but it certainly flushes a lot of money down the drain.

I have watched some more serious drug addictions from a distance, but don't feel those stories are mine to share. I'll just agree they are heartbreaking.

Vaping is great because it's "not as bad", but also is awful because it's "not as bad."  I know someone that used it to wean himself off nicotine and quit smoking completely, but I know it's a big problem with teens right now.

I don't understand this at all.  Vaping is a delivery mechanism for nicotine - same as cigarettes.  Vaping also has not FDA regulations about the chemicals that go into them, so we really don't know how bad it is yet. 

As someone who smoked for 20 years, and quit for years at a time on a number of occasions, I wholeheartedly agree with the studies that show that nicotine is as addictive as heroin.  I don't understand why something like waterboarding is needed as a torture method. To me, get me a nicotine source, then cut it off.  I'd do anything for nicotine hit! I don't think I'm exaggerating either. 

I haven't had a cigarette in 15 years now and I won't let anyone even vape near me --- I do not want nicotine anywhere near me because I can't stand the thought of getting addicted again.

[Villanelle]

I recently lost a friend to alcohol addition, and have a family member who has lost his wife (and mostly his children, as far as we can tell), his home, several jobs, most friends, and many other things, to alcohol. 

It is a terrible thing to witness, and the damage it has done to not only them, but to their loved ones, is heart-wrenching. 

[ketchup]

I wholeheartedly agree with the studies that show that nicotine is as addictive as heroin.  I don't understand why something like waterboarding is needed as a torture method. To me, get me a nicotine source, then cut it off.  I'd do anything for nicotine hit! I don't think I'm exaggerating either. 

Would you steal your brother's food stamps to sell to a total stranger, and get a ride from someone that's in and out of jail to the bad part of town and not know if you'll make it back alive?  Would you trash your brother-in-law's credit by defaulting on a car loan he cosigned to fund your habit (and then crash the damn car too)? Would you burn bridges with your dad, your only source of emotional support (and until this incident, health insurance that you use the hell out of), for some quick cash that won't last a week with your addiction?  Would you neglect your sister's dogs that she specifically had you watch for only one fucking day and wind up passed out in her back yard while the dogs scream and bark and shit all over everything inside because you didn't let them outside for 18 hours, leading to multiple calls to animal control and code enforcement from concerned neighbors?  Would you shack up with someone that physically, emotionally, and sexually abuses you daily, just because he'll help you get your fix?

All real examples, all by the same person.  Opiates are a bitch.

[BlueHouse]

I wholeheartedly agree with the studies that show that nicotine is as addictive as heroin.  I don't understand why something like waterboarding is needed as a torture method. To me, get me a nicotine source, then cut it off.  I'd do anything for nicotine hit! I don't think I'm exaggerating either. 

Would you steal your brother's food stamps to sell to a total stranger, and get a ride from someone that's in and out of jail to the bad part of town and not know if you'll make it back alive?  Would you trash your brother-in-law's credit by defaulting on a car loan he cosigned to fund your habit (and then crash the damn car too)? Would you burn bridges with your dad, your only source of emotional support (and until this incident, health insurance that you use the hell out of), for some quick cash that won't last a week with your addiction?  Would you neglect your sister's dogs that she specifically had you watch for only one fucking day and wind up passed out in her back yard while the dogs scream and bark and shit all over everything inside because you didn't let them outside for 18 hours, leading to multiple calls to animal control and code enforcement from concerned neighbors?  Would you shack up with someone that physically, emotionally, and sexually abuses you daily, just because he'll help you get your fix?

All real examples, all by the same person.  Opiates are a bitch.

I'm so sorry, I don't mean to minimize the horror of opioid addiction. 

 

[ketchup]

I wholeheartedly agree with the studies that show that nicotine is as addictive as heroin.  I don't understand why something like waterboarding is needed as a torture method. To me, get me a nicotine source, then cut it off.  I'd do anything for nicotine hit! I don't think I'm exaggerating either. 

Would you steal your brother's food stamps to sell to a total stranger, and get a ride from someone that's in and out of jail to the bad part of town and not know if you'll make it back alive?  Would you trash your brother-in-law's credit by defaulting on a car loan he cosigned to fund your habit (and then crash the damn car too)? Would you burn bridges with your dad, your only source of emotional support (and until this incident, health insurance that you use the hell out of), for some quick cash that won't last a week with your addiction?  Would you neglect your sister's dogs that she specifically had you watch for only one fucking day and wind up passed out in her back yard while the dogs scream and bark and shit all over everything inside because you didn't let them outside for 18 hours, leading to multiple calls to animal control and code enforcement from concerned neighbors?  Would you shack up with someone that physically, emotionally, and sexually abuses you daily, just because he'll help you get your fix?

All real examples, all by the same person.  Opiates are a bitch.

I'm so sorry, I don't mean to minimize the horror of opioid addiction.

Sorry if that came off as dickish.  All I'm really getting at is that while nicotine and heroin addictions both suck hard, I've seen people deal with both and they are very much not equivalent.

[partgypsy]

It's financially, physically and emotionally destructive. I lost my brother last month. He died of cancer but hard core alcoholic and smoker. Talking to one of his friends I didn't realize he had lost 2, 3 people close to him due to drugs (primarily heroin). Though not on the scale of my brother, something I pushed down, my ex having a drinking problem. He went through a really bad patch after our 2nd was born, to the extent I contemplated leaving but also didn't know how. He admitted during that time he was so surly and bad tempered to me was that he was hung over every day. He's gotten better. He's with a girlfriend, they go jogging, says he really trying to be healthier. But as far as I can tell he still drinks every day and so is dependent on it. I also know from my family the sense of helplessness that I can't save him. He has to want it.  It's a great sadness in my life and always will be and I still illogically feel a responsibility I couldn't make him a better person.

[MrThatsDifferent]

If this is an issue, please read the book Co-dependent No More by Melodie Beattie

That book is liberating, consciousness resining and empowering when it comes to dealing with people in toxic circumstances and relationships or addictions. 

[Mariposa]

For heroin or oxycodone addiction, methadone and buprenorphine maintenance therapy really does save lives and is the standard of care. Heroin maintenance therapy for heroin addiction, in which people are maintained on pharmaceutical-grade heroin, also saves lives but is not legal in the US. (It's a standard treatment in several European countries.) Too bad there's so much stigma around the treatments that have the most evidence behind them.

When we made the decision to support my MIL, she was repeatedly ending up in the ICU for massive variceal bleeding from alcohol. We thought she wasn't going to live much longer. Before we took her on, I sat her down and told her I knew what was going on, why she kept ending up in the hospital. I told her we'd support her no matter what (DH wasn't going to let her become homeless). I told her I knew I couldn't make her stop drinking, that only she herself could make the decision to do that, but that we both knew if she continued to drink, she would die. That was almost 7 years ago. She ultimately wanted to live; I think we made it a little bit easier for her to make that choice. She continues to be difficult to deal with, but DH says this is the most stable he's seen except for maybe in his early childhood.

[RFAAOATB]

I wholeheartedly agree with the studies that show that nicotine is as addictive as heroin.  I don't understand why something like waterboarding is needed as a torture method. To me, get me a nicotine source, then cut it off.  I'd do anything for nicotine hit! I don't think I'm exaggerating either. 

Would you steal your brother's food stamps to sell to a total stranger, and get a ride from someone that's in and out of jail to the bad part of town and not know if you'll make it back alive?  Would you trash your brother-in-law's credit by defaulting on a car loan he cosigned to fund your habit (and then crash the damn car too)? Would you burn bridges with your dad, your only source of emotional support (and until this incident, health insurance that you use the hell out of), for some quick cash that won't last a week with your addiction?  Would you neglect your sister's dogs that she specifically had you watch for only one fucking day and wind up passed out in her back yard while the dogs scream and bark and shit all over everything inside because you didn't let them outside for 18 hours, leading to multiple calls to animal control and code enforcement from concerned neighbors?  Would you shack up with someone that physically, emotionally, and sexually abuses you daily, just because he'll help you get your fix?

All real examples, all by the same person.  Opiates are a bitch.

I'm so sorry, I don't mean to minimize the horror of opioid addiction.

I gave up cigarettes after a few unsuccessful attempts and still have some cravings.  Why aren’t more people giving up heroin considering how much a pain in the ass it is to get?  If we’re going to compare the addictive powers of nicotine and heroin, then the access would have to be equivalent.  Either cigarettes are banned and you have to be all sketchy to get some, or $12 will get you a day’s worth of heroin at any gas station or grocery store.

Maybe we should give up on the war on opioids, let them be available to consumers at the retail level, and hope we can get addicts to at least be functional members of society.

[SunnyDays]

Maybe we should give up on the war on opioids, let them be available to consumers at the retail level, and hope we can get addicts to at least be functional members of society.

I'm of two minds on this - I think it does have merit and some countries have gone the route of harm reduction.  But I don't think most people use only enough opioid to avoid getting sick and therefore could be functional with a guaranteed supply.  Lots use in order to get the effect of the drug, and as they use more, they need more to get the same rush.  These people would not be functional with a guaranteed supply.  A lot of people start drugs due to trauma of some kind, and without addressing this, they will not want/be able to get clean, regardless of the source of the drug.

[namasteyall]

May I humbly suggest healing for all concerned? I have seen reiki, mindful meditation and plenty of happy exercise, like dance or yoga, do wonders in rebuilding those who live/d with the addict.

NLP also is so so effective in stopping addiction.

People can enable the addict without realizing. (Learn what this enabling is, if not known.)

Sent with the hope that this information helps someone.

[soccerluvof4]

I've seen and have had friends suffer or go through many addictions some obviously doing better than others and now being older I have friends who have kids going through it mostly Opioids  Its a scary thing and seemingly is getting worse in our country. As a parent too of 4 is probably my biggest fear with my kids. And as others had said it really effects all those around and hitting bottom doesn't necessarily means will bounce back. Wish the best!

[SwordGuy]

If you want the drug problem to get better you have to take the huge profits out of the system.

Pay the Afghanis to grow opium.  Buy it for pennies.   If they are making money farming they won't be so motivated to cause other people problems.

Give the stuff away. 

Only bring the law into it if they cause problems for others, just like alcohol.

Now, no one has a huge monetary interest in pushing the product.   It has no mystique.  It's just the thing that losers do.   Publish the dead junkie count on TV, with photos of dead junkies, so people associate the product with that.

Lots of organized crime activities are no longer funded by huge profits.

[TheContinentalOp]

My gambling addicted ex-wife managed to run up six figures in debt. I managed to sell the house just before the housing crash.

After that I lived deliberately below my means, working toward FIRE before I ever heard of MMM.

[partgypsy]

Opiates are incredibly addicting and even people who take opiates for medical reasons often end up becoming addicted. It is a public health crisis. I guess you haven't known people who have died or overdosed from heroin to be so callous as to say flood the streets with the stuff. Other countries have ways to provide methadone and other medications to control or wean off opiods. And, some people are carefully given doses  For people who take it for pain relief it there are many other options for pain relief that are usually better options. https://consultqd.clevelandclinic.org/the-opioid-epidemic-what-can-we-learn-from-europe/

[Adam Zapple]

If you want the drug problem to get better you have to take the huge profits out of the system.

Pay the Afghanis to grow opium.  Buy it for pennies.   If they are making money farming they won't be so motivated to cause other people problems.

Give the stuff away. 

Only bring the law into it if they cause problems for others, just like alcohol.

Now, no one has a huge monetary interest in pushing the product.   It has no mystique.  It's just the thing that losers do.   Publish the dead junkie count on TV, with photos of dead junkies, so people associate the product with that.

Lots of organized crime activities are no longer funded by huge profits.

Wow

[ysette9]

I found this podcast very enlightening on the topic of opiate addiction and our total failure to set up a system to help people avoid getting addicted to begin with and then get off once addicted. The perpective is from a highly educated white male with many resources at his disposal, which may challenge the perception of drug addiction being something only “losers” fall into.

https://www.npr.org/programs/fresh-air/2019/07/08/739556787/fresh-air-for-july-8-2019-quitting-opioids-alone

[Mariposa]

I'm all for ending the war on opioids and going full harm reduction. It would make a lot of mass incarceration and organized and petty crime go away and also reduce disease transmission (HIV, hep C). This isn't going to fix the public health crisis, but criminalizing it hasn't fixed it, either, and has created other problems. I see first-hand what opioid addiction does, so I don't think we should be flooding the streets with oxycodone, like doctors in the recent past did. I do think we should be giving away buprenorphine to anyone who wants it. Further stigmitizing addiction ("just the thing that losers do") is likely to cause more misunderstanding and cost people access to effective treatments.

[partgypsy]

I'm all for ending the war on opioids and going full harm reduction. It would make a lot of mass incarceration and organized and petty crime go away and also reduce disease transmission (HIV, hep C). This isn't going to fix the public health crisis, but criminalizing it hasn't fixed it, either, and has created other problems. I see first-hand what opioid addiction does, so I don't think we should be flooding the streets with oxycodone, like doctors in the recent past did. I do think we should be giving away buprenorphine to anyone who wants it. Further stigmitizing addiction ("just the thing that losers do") is likely to cause more misunderstanding and cost people access to effective treatments.

yes exactly.

[A Fella from Stella]

Obviously this is on a smaller scale, but I'm pretty mad about the way vaping has reintroduced nicotine addiction to a population that was in the process of leaving it behind. Nicotine doesn't usually ruin people financially, but it certainly flushes a lot of money down the drain.

I have watched some more serious drug addictions from a distance, but don't feel those stories are mine to share. I'll just agree they are heartbreaking.

Vaping is great because it's "not as bad", but also is awful because it's "not as bad."  I know someone that used it to wean himself off nicotine and quit smoking completely, but I know it's a big problem with teens right now.

Yeah, I mean, if vaping keeps you away from heroin or meth, that's awesome. The "cool" image with teenagers is what's frustrating.

Was in the smoking area where a friend was taking a break and saw the big vape cloud come from somewhere else. I couldn't help but say "wow, you're vaping the shit out of that thing."

He said, 'what's so great is that it's healthier because it's just vapor.'

"You don't actually know that, do you?" I asked.

And we both walked away thinking the other was an idiot.

[A Fella from Stella]

If this is an issue, please read the book Co-dependent No More by Melodie Beattie

That book is liberating, consciousness resining and empowering when it comes to dealing with people in toxic circumstances and relationships or addictions.

Quoting this just to hope more eyes see it.

[SwordGuy]

If you want the drug problem to get better you have to take the huge profits out of the system.

Pay the Afghanis to grow opium.  Buy it for pennies.   If they are making money farming they won't be so motivated to cause other people problems.

Give the stuff away. 

Only bring the law into it if they cause problems for others, just like alcohol.

Now, no one has a huge monetary interest in pushing the product.   It has no mystique.  It's just the thing that losers do.   Publish the dead junkie count on TV, with photos of dead junkies, so people associate the product with that.

Lots of organized crime activities are no longer funded by huge profits.

Wow

I'm guessing you think my response is callous and uncaring. 

It's not.

There's just too much money in these products now.   That kind of money corrupts entire systems.   We can't even keep illegal drugs out of federal prison!   

We have dead junkies now and unless a couple of miracles occur we'll ALWAYS have dead junkies no matter what we do.
But we don't talk about them.   They just disappear from societies attention.

The two questions are:

1) Can we do something that will result in fewer dead junkies and wasted lives?
2) Can we use those tragedies to help reduce the number of future tragedies.

Right now there is a tremendous effort to hook people on drugs because it's so profitable.   Just make that problem go away.  We'll have fewer addicts because there's no money in it.

Drugs have gotten a lot of "cool mystique" treatment in film, social media and literature.    Let's counteract that with actual facts that are presented in an attention getting, visceral way.   Result?   A higher resistance to peer pressure to try illicit drugs than we would have otherwise.

Other benefits?   The addict doesn't have to steal from family, friends or strangers to fuel their habit.  Less property crime and less violent crime.   The addict doesn't have to become a slave to their fix provider in order to get their fix.  They are less likely to be forced into acts that ruin or destroy what self respect they still have left, which increases the likelihood they may find the will to break their addiction.

Organized crime loses a HUGE revenue stream.   Their ability to corrupt our own government officials and those in other countries becomes markedly less.  That makes it more likely those countries may get better conditions for their own citizens.

We stop spending billions of dollars incarcerating people that are not a danger to others.

We lose whatever specious justification still remains for the unconstitutional (but lucrative for police) asset forfeiture laws.  These laws allow the police to confiscate your property without charging you for a crime or giving you a day in court to get it back!

And since we free up a huge amount of money spent on drug interdiction and incarceration, we'll have plenty of funds to properly fund drug treatment centers and research for miracle cures for same.

[utaca]

If you want the drug problem to get better you have to take the huge profits out of the system.

Pay the Afghanis to grow opium.  Buy it for pennies.   If they are making money farming they won't be so motivated to cause other people problems.

Give the stuff away. 

Only bring the law into it if they cause problems for others, just like alcohol.

Now, no one has a huge monetary interest in pushing the product.   It has no mystique.  It's just the thing that losers do.   Publish the dead junkie count on TV, with photos of dead junkies, so people associate the product with that.

Lots of organized crime activities are no longer funded by huge profits.

Wow

I'm guessing you think my response is callous and uncaring. 

It's not.

There's just too much money in these products now.   That kind of money corrupts entire systems.   We can't even keep illegal drugs out of federal prison!   

We have dead junkies now and unless a couple of miracles occur we'll ALWAYS have dead junkies no matter what we do.
But we don't talk about them.   They just disappear from societies attention.

The two questions are:

1) Can we do something that will result in fewer dead junkies and wasted lives?
2) Can we use those tragedies to help reduce the number of future tragedies.

Right now there is a tremendous effort to hook people on drugs because it's so profitable.   Just make that problem go away.  We'll have fewer addicts because there's no money in it.

Drugs have gotten a lot of "cool mystique" treatment in film, social media and literature.    Let's counteract that with actual facts that are presented in an attention getting, visceral way.   Result?   A higher resistance to peer pressure to try illicit drugs than we would have otherwise.

Other benefits?   The addict doesn't have to steal from family, friends or strangers to fuel their habit.  Less property crime and less violent crime.   The addict doesn't have to become a slave to their fix provider in order to get their fix.  They are less likely to be forced into acts that ruin or destroy what self respect they still have left, which increases the likelihood they may find the will to break their addiction.

Organized crime loses a HUGE revenue stream.   Their ability to corrupt our own government officials and those in other countries becomes markedly less.  That makes it more likely those countries may get better conditions for their own citizens.

We stop spending billions of dollars incarcerating people that are not a danger to others.

We lose whatever specious justification still remains for the unconstitutional (but lucrative for police) asset forfeiture laws.  These laws allow the police to confiscate your property without charging you for a crime or giving you a day in court to get it back!

And since we free up a huge amount of money spent on drug interdiction and incarceration, we'll have plenty of funds to properly fund drug treatment centers and research for miracle cures for same.

I've thought for many years that full legalization is really the only way to, if not end, then at least bring some sanity to drug use. People have used drugs for thousands of years and will keep using drugs until the end of time - the demand will always be there. Yes, heroin, crack, etc. are bad - but alcohol and smoking lead to more death and destruction and no one suggests they should not be legal.

In addition, I'd suggest there are many currently illegal drugs that actually have positive benefits: think hallucinogens and MDMA, which are receiving a lot of clinical attention recently (including with respect to addiction treatment) and, frankly, can be extremely illuminating and positive if used in the right environment.

Legalization also controls the supply so people know what they are getting, reducing overdoses. Further, as you suggest, the savings on incarceration, and generation of tax revenue, could provide increase the availability of much needed treatment.

Finally, addiction is complex, involving family, social and biological factors. Most people won't become addicted from intermittent drug use, just like most people don't become alcoholics from drinking a couple of times a week.

[Dicey]

If you want the drug problem to get better you have to take the huge profits out of the system.

Pay the Afghanis to grow opium.  Buy it for pennies.   If they are making money farming they won't be so motivated to cause other people problems.

Give the stuff away. 

Only bring the law into it if they cause problems for others, just like alcohol.

Now, no one has a huge monetary interest in pushing the product.   It has no mystique.  It's just the thing that losers do.   Publish the dead junkie count on TV, with photos of dead junkies, so people associate the product with that.

Lots of organized crime activities are no longer funded by huge profits.

Wow

Especially the bolded part. Care to elaborate, @SwordGuy? Really not sure what you meant by this.

[Adam Zapple]

If you want the drug problem to get better you have to take the huge profits out of the system.

Pay the Afghanis to grow opium.  Buy it for pennies.   If they are making money farming they won't be so motivated to cause other people problems.

Give the stuff away. 

Only bring the law into it if they cause problems for others, just like alcohol.

Now, no one has a huge monetary interest in pushing the product.   It has no mystique.  It's just the thing that losers do.   Publish the dead junkie count on TV, with photos of dead junkies, so people associate the product with that.

Lots of organized crime activities are no longer funded by huge profits.

Wow

I'm guessing you think my response is callous and uncaring. 

It's not.

There's just too much money in these products now.   That kind of money corrupts entire systems.   We can't even keep illegal drugs out of federal prison!   

We have dead junkies now and unless a couple of miracles occur we'll ALWAYS have dead junkies no matter what we do.
But we don't talk about them.   They just disappear from societies attention.

The two questions are:

1) Can we do something that will result in fewer dead junkies and wasted lives?
2) Can we use those tragedies to help reduce the number of future tragedies.

Right now there is a tremendous effort to hook people on drugs because it's so profitable.   Just make that problem go away.  We'll have fewer addicts because there's no money in it.

Drugs have gotten a lot of "cool mystique" treatment in film, social media and literature.    Let's counteract that with actual facts that are presented in an attention getting, visceral way.   Result?   A higher resistance to peer pressure to try illicit drugs than we would have otherwise.

Other benefits?   The addict doesn't have to steal from family, friends or strangers to fuel their habit.  Less property crime and less violent crime.   The addict doesn't have to become a slave to their fix provider in order to get their fix.  They are less likely to be forced into acts that ruin or destroy what self respect they still have left, which increases the likelihood they may find the will to break their addiction.

Organized crime loses a HUGE revenue stream.   Their ability to corrupt our own government officials and those in other countries becomes markedly less.  That makes it more likely those countries may get better conditions for their own citizens.

We stop spending billions of dollars incarcerating people that are not a danger to others.

We lose whatever specious justification still remains for the unconstitutional (but lucrative for police) asset forfeiture laws.  These laws allow the police to confiscate your property without charging you for a crime or giving you a day in court to get it back!

And since we free up a huge amount of money spent on drug interdiction and incarceration, we'll have plenty of funds to properly fund drug treatment centers and research for miracle cures for same.

It's more your constant use of the phrase "dead junkies"

[Mariposa]

^Totally agree. Legalization, ending mass incarceration, and harm reduction aren’t the controversial parts.

[rocketpj]

My 'FI' part time job is working in a homeless shelter.  Every hour we check every resident for overdoses.  Every week there is at least one (which gets treated in time mostly).  One shift there were 3.

It needs to be legal and regulated through a single payer, not for profit medical system.  Anything through a profit system will become a profit centre (see: Sackler family and opioid epidemic).

[SwordGuy]

It's more your constant use of the phrase "dead junkies"

Oh, that may be a generational thing.  I grew up when my dad was in the US Army during the Vietnam war.  He did two tours of duty over there.   Every night on the evening news (on TV for you youngsters), there was a graphic of a US Soldier with a text overlay.  The text overlay contained the day's dead, wounded and missing soldier count.   It was an effective way to know that our soldiers were dying.   I just got used to watching the dead soldier count.

So, if you're concerned about my "dead junkie" comment being pejorative, it's not.

It's just an accurate, descriptive label for what people need to see and hear, every day, until the mystique of doing illegal drugs is gone.

[SwordGuy]

Give the stuff away. 

Especially the bolded part. Care to elaborate, @SwordGuy? Really not sure what you meant by this.

Give it away to people who want to use it.  Or charge such a nominal amount there's little likelihood that someone will rob someone to get the money.

If they are addicted to the drugs they'll get the drugs if they want them.  That's well established fact.   If anything about our 50+ war on drugs has proven, it's that one thing.   So make it easy and as painless as possible for everyone else.  Plus, it become really hard for illicit drug dealers to compete so they'll have more trouble pushing their wares.

If they are still somewhat functional despite their addiction, then they won't end up hungry and homeless on the streets because all their rent and food money went to illegal drugs.  That's better for the addicts and better for everyone else.  If you don't get in trouble for getting high at home (assuming you aren't causing other problems), then they'll be motivated to go home and get high instead of doing so on the street.   It they aren't functional enough to work for a living, at least any money they beg for will go for food and medicine instead of drugs.   So they'll be better off.

Doing the entire program I suggested would improve survival rates among addicts and save our nation a bundle. 

Hope that explains it.

Sometimes the best choice isn't the most intuitive one.   Stopping the illegal drug trade would be way better if only we could.  But we've proven we can't.   

[ysette9]

I’m confused.

Is there a mystique surrounding illegal drug use? My impression was that it was usually viewed negatively, or at least regular use was. There is the mystery of the forbidden fruit for youth, and legalization would maybe help tamp that down. I admit my perspective is limited though. Who thinks illegal drugs and addiction are romantic?

[SwordGuy]

More decades ago than I like to admit to, I used to work at a fast food restaurant.  I had been moved up to a part-time management role.   (Trivial amount of money more, but at least I didn't have to wear the butt-ugly uniforms the staff did.)

I was the manager for the store closing shift.   I had to count the money and do other paperwork after the stored closed while everyone else was cleaning up the store.

No one was allowed to leave when they finished their task.  We all had to wait until everyone was finished so we could all leave in a group out the same door.   This was for our safety so no one would be attacked on their own once outside the store.   Folks could stay on the clock and help others finish or they could clock out and wait in the lobby.

About 10 minutes before I would be done, I looked around to see how everyone else was doing on their tasks.   Two were in the back and almost done cleaning up.   One was sitting in a booth by the door we would all leave by.  The building had all glass walls at waist level with brick support posts every so often.   I spotted someone outside the building peeking furtively around the brick corner post to look inside.  They were wearing one of those knitted head coverings, the kind that covers the whole head except for the mouth and two eyes.     It was warm outside.

I knew at once we had a robber outside waiting for us.  He was less than 5 feet from the teenage boy sitting by the door.

I loudly yelled over to them, "Hey, you didn't clean up right!   Get over here and do it right!"

I got lots of smart-mouth grumbling about how he had done everything right.  He walked back to the office area (which was out of sight from the robber).   

"Stay right here.  There's a robber out there."

Of course, he started to go around the corner and stare, looking for the robber.  I slammed him back against the wall with my hand on his throat. "You will stay HERE and NOT MOVE.  I have to call the police."

The police showed up minutes later and the robber broke and tried to run away, but there were too many cars responding and noplace to hide.

He was a drug addict.

And he was someone we all used to work with.  Someone we considered a friend.   Someone who knew our safety procedures because, like me, he was a part time manager (but who now worked at a different store).

He was willing to kill us go get another fix.

The police let him walk away before they came inside to talk to me.  He said he was just here to visit some old friends.   The hell he was, because if he had been doing that, he would have talked to them from the other side of the door, not hidden behind a post.

I was livid.   

Turns out they knew what he was doing.   They followed him at a distance and watched while he tried to pull the same stunt on a different restaurant that closed an hour later than we did.   Got him dead to rights.

Much as we would like to, we can't stop people from killing themselves with drugs.

But at least we can remove the profit from the equation so no one has an profit motive for making more addicts.

And we can remove the need to kill people for the money to get their fix.

That's a real improvement over where we are.

[SwordGuy]

I’m confused.

Is there a mystique surrounding illegal drug use? My impression was that it was usually viewed negatively, or at least regular use was. There is the mystery of the forbidden fruit for youth, and legalization would maybe help tamp that down. I admit my perspective is limited though. Who thinks illegal drugs and addiction are romantic?

Gobs of movies, books, TV shows that have made doing illegal drugs "cool" are out there.

If you have surgery or injure yourself in a way that causes pain, people will congratulate you on being able to get some "good drugs".

[Mariposa]

It's more your constant use of the phrase "dead junkies"

Oh, that may be a generational thing.  I grew up when my dad was in the US Army during the Vietnam war.  He did two tours of duty over there.   Every night on the evening news (on TV for you youngsters), there was a graphic of a US Soldier with a text overlay.  The text overlay contained the day's dead, wounded and missing soldier count.   It was an effective way to know that our soldiers were dying.   I just got used to watching the dead soldier count.

So, if you're concerned about my "dead junkie" comment being pejorative, it's not.

It's just an accurate, descriptive label for what people need to see and hear, every day, until the mystique of doing illegal drugs is gone.

It's not the graphic nature of what you're saying; those of us who work in the field are well aware of the numbers, that there are now more people in the US who die each year from drug overdoses than from car accidents, and communities are being completely destroyed. It's pairing "dead" with the j-word, which is pejorative and stigmatizing. A parallel would be using the n-word when you're from an outside group.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-stigma-of-addiction-is-more-dangerous-than-drug_b_5968ee14e4b06a2c8edb45fe