The best post I saw today on the Mr Money Mustache forums was...

[wordnerd]

Laura33's response on how to deal with spendy family members (and timely with the holidays approaching)
Link to thread here.

...
Just wondering how people (Mustachians especially) deal with family members who equate "togetherness" with "spending lots of money."

Honestly, your sister sounds like a bully.  Yeah, it's possible she sees your response as a slight on your relationship, but it's more likely that she knows that family togetherness is your weak spot, so she dove right for it to try to guilt you into changing your mind.  You need a consistent, calm response that you whip out every time she pulls this, along the lines of, "gee, I'd love to spend time with you, but that's not in my budget.  Can we have dinner at my place instead?"  [Or insert some other free/cheap get-together]  If she really is clueless, repeatedly offering her a simpler alternative will emphasize that you do want to get together; if she's just using it as a guilt trip to bend you to her will, the consistent response will eventually persuade her that you are done being a pushover. 

Also, expect it to get worse before it gets better -- people who are used to getting their way will tend to get even more aggressive the first time you say no, because they are used to you giving in, so they just assume if they push harder, you will resume your rightful (submissive) role.  Kind of like kids and tantrums, btw -- this is basically an adult tantrum, and so treating it as such tends to work very well.  FWIW, remaining calm and saying the same thing over and over will drive this kind of personality nuts more quickly than anything else -- first you're not doing what she wants, and now she can't even get you upset or angry or guilty about it?  It just sucks all of her power away from her, if she is so insignificant that she can't even ruffle your feathers.

And, yeah, I do have one of these.  I still remember when my SIL invited us and her other sister out to a very fancy restaurant (one of those with a famous-name chef) to celebrate her birthday.  DH and I were just married and had just bought a townhouse, so I was worried at the cost, but the SIL had introduced us and was clearly excited to have me in the family and wanted to include me, so I put my hesitations aside and went.  And boy had she set this up -- she had gotten the chef's table and set up this fantastic menu (e.g., we were greeted with the largest tray of charcuterie I have ever seen), which was definitely delicious, but waaaaay more food than we could possibly eat, and of course paired bottles of wine with each course.  And then she presented us with the tab.  For like $800*.  Because after all it was her birthday. 

WTF?  Who does that?  If she'd asked if I wanted to take her out for her birthday, I'd have said of course, and chosen a reasonable restaurant -- or at a bare minimum, taken over the planning to keep the menu and wine reasonable (we could easily have eaten at the same restaurant for less than half that cost).  But being presented with the check at the end was a real dick move that left us feeling like we had to pay to preserve family harmony.  And it was delicious, but not $400 delicious.  I really felt bad for her other sister, though, who made a lot less than the rest of us at the time -- I mean, you just don't do that, period, but you sure as hell don't do that to people who make maybe half of what you do.  Lucky for me, SIL was just clueless, not mean-spirited, and she's changed her ways since then. 

*Note that this was 20 years ago.  By today's inflated dining-out standards, it would probably have exceeded $2K.

Spot on, per the usual.

I would read the shit out of a Laura33 advice column.

[Monocle Money Mouth]

This was over on the hoarder thread. I thought it had some really good insight on how to deal with garbage hoarding parents might give you that you don't necessarily want.

To restate where I'm coming from as far as my advice/commentary in this thread: I grew up in a hoarder house. As bad, if not worse than any you've ever seen on those television shows. Both parents (divorced, so I got the fun of being shuffled from one horrible house to the other horrible apartment/house, which just got worse as I got older). I am not talking "they're just a packrat" or "there's piles of stuff on some surfaces or clutter in every room" level - dad's house required a crime scene cleaner, many GIANT dumpsters and hazmat suits to deal with the level of filth/hoarding. Mother's house likely similar (maybe no hazmat) when it comes to that. I am a reformed packrat, who does deal with the echoes of pain/anguish getting rid of "family" items or stuff that that are no longer wanted/useful. I usually cry after driving away from the donation centers, but once it's done, I have little regret and I'm thankful for the years of counseling and self-exploration to deal with this horrible mental aberration.

marble_faun, I'd advise you to stop associating any items with possible family heirloom as "valuable" since you couldn't recognize them as such one way or another, and your mother is using this weakness to try to make you keep things you otherwise would not want at all. Why does it matter anyway? They are gone. The object should be judged/kept based off of whether you want to use it as intended or it gives you great pleasure in seeing/using said object. Period, full stop.

My own mother is unable to let things go at all unless she knows they will be used/valued, or can be sold for money. She is stuck in the sunk cost fallacy of hoarding, where she will not allow herself to process how messed up her life/house is and has been for all these years so she has to justify the hoarding as "saving valuable objects" or else she won't let them go until someone values them and promises they won't be thrown out, or gives her proof that she was being smart (by paying her money).

She justifies quite a bit of her current hoard in outbuildings as things she will sell in a garage sale, but she has never held a garage sale in her life, her house location is unsuitable for doing so, and she can't even stand on her feet long due to health issues so she can't organize anything anyway enough to price and set up. It is a fantasy she tells herself to justify the hoarding.

It sounds like your mother also has a bit of this mindset as she gifts things to others so she won't feel so stupid wasting her time/money/space having hoarded/saved the objects. Broken, stained or ill fitting objects - give to the daughter as she might fix/repurpose them and I have Done A Good Thing by not throwing them in the trash! See, I was really smart as I get to give them as gifts, I saved these objects and daughter will value them because they came from ME! Win/win situation in her mind...

Now that you've told her you won't accept general objects, she's switched tactics to tell you that these things might be "family heirlooms" so you will take the items and not dispose of them... therefore reinforcing in her mind that she wasn't being stupid holding the items herself because you will value them and become the custodian of her collection.

So a big thing to ask yourself: why the fact a long dead relative may have made/bought/touched said item makes it more important to you? You've already stated you got rid of things without any known association at the time (pencil case). So why would you need to keep the pencil case or doilies at all just because of family associations? You obviously weren't going to use or display the pencil case since you got rid of it already. Unless you really love and will use said items for what they actually are, you're leaving yourself open to becoming a hoarder as well. The tendency can run in families.

My father used to use gifting as an excuse to amass even more garbage/junk. He would pick up pictures or old books or anything that reminded him of me or things I liked (even if it was things I used to like when I was like 7 years old and no longer collected or even looked at) and then "save" them for gifts to give me. I lived 4 states away, flew in and had little suitcase space and he refused to pay for postage on even a card, let alone a package... and yet would try to give me large framed prints, comforters/bed-in-a-bag sets, dishes, etc... to take home, on a plane.

I told him finally to stop using me as an excuse to shop for junk. I couldn't take things anyway, and since I didn't need or want any of that stuff, anything he gave me would be donated, and it would be a more meaningful gesture for him to donate the money directly through his church or local charities. He got pretty mad about it (total denial about how terrible the house was, as in his mind he was never "that bad" and would get super angry when confronted), but finally stopped trying to gift me stuff.

The true goal here is start trying to wrap your mind around the idea of just letting them go.

Family IS important - their THINGS are not.



I'd suggest doing some reading on hoarders to help figure out the mindset and recognize the cliffs that you may be facing.
I got these at the library, but there are some great websites as well (http://childrenofhoarders.com/wordpress/ for instance is a great resource for other sites and info):

https://www.amazon.com/Stuff-Compulsive-Hoarding-Meaning-Things/dp/0547422555

https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Clean-Kimberly-Rae-Miller/dp/0544320816
^this one struck a nerve with me

[CanuckExpat]

Good advice on how to start an FI bookclub in person and why you would want to do it:

I DO think book clubs are pretty neat, and it kind of embodies all the things MMM, Frugalwoods, etc. would approve of:

• it's an excuse to hang out with like-minded folks
• it's an opportunity to host frugally
• books can be acquired from libraries or cheaply used / resell when done
• yum, food/cupcakes/wine/beer/cheese

I didn't even do much to start this one except say yes to the real organizer, but I think my saying yes probably helped generate some accountability? SO, a guide, except I am mostly telling you what the organizer did:

• ask your friends who have heard you rant about FI whether they would be interested in doing a book club
• if your friends say yes, ask them if they know people who would be interested in an FI book club
• decide on a pretty introductory but life-changing book that would pique an interest in this whole FI/RE thing, e.g. YMOYL, Simple Path to Wealth, or The Millionaire Next Door. Advice: DON'T start with Early Retirement Extreme or The Four Pillars of Investing. You want it to stay approachable!
• Find a date 1-2 months out - this'll give people time to obtain the book, read the book, and hopefully time to find a date that works for most people. Facebook poll, Doodle, etc. can help with scheduling
• Send out periodic reminders so people will read the book and remember to come
• Send out a reminder the week of with promises of enticing snacks and an invitation that people can come even if they haven't finished the book
• Prep some discussion points or potential points of contention to keep in the back of your pocket in case people are shy. Prepare a couple of different books to suggest for the next gathering, but let others voice what they would be interested in reading.
• On day of, twiddle your thumb in hope that people actually show up
• Feed people snacks. Be nice. Ask them their thoughts on particular ideas in the book. Have an awesome time!
• Ideally, pick a book AND/OR the next meeting date before everyone leaves! This will keep them hooked and committed to coming back. Otherwise, follow up with email thanking them for coming and putting out book / dates for the next meet. Rinse and repeat.
• After a couple of meetings, once you have a solid group, you can ask if others would like to host

[PJ]

PJ and Dollar Slice discussing the wonders of autocorrect:

Seriously though, now you get to hear my rant about autocorrect and predictive text. 

I have no idea what your man, autocorrect is a fantastic intercom. I don't know what I would do without is most helpful circus to my text. Technology week face is all.

(This post is brought to you by Swype and autocorrect)

You have certain change my mind about autocorrect with you expecting text imonial. I will available criticizes this except technician in the future. I have been conversation to it's glorifying uses.

Thanks you for sharpener your store.

Thank you, thankyouverymuch!

[PJ]

Laura33's response on how to deal with spendy family members (and timely with the holidays approaching)
Link to thread here.

...
Just wondering how people (Mustachians especially) deal with family members who equate "togetherness" with "spending lots of money."

Honestly, your sister sounds like a bully.  Yeah, it's possible she sees your response as a slight on your relationship, but it's more likely that she knows that family togetherness is your weak spot, so she dove right for it to try to guilt you into changing your mind.  You need a consistent, calm response that you whip out every time she pulls this, along the lines of, "gee, I'd love to spend time with you, but that's not in my budget.  Can we have dinner at my place instead?"  [Or insert some other free/cheap get-together]  If she really is clueless, repeatedly offering her a simpler alternative will emphasize that you do want to get together; if she's just using it as a guilt trip to bend you to her will, the consistent response will eventually persuade her that you are done being a pushover. 

Also, expect it to get worse before it gets better -- people who are used to getting their way will tend to get even more aggressive the first time you say no, because they are used to you giving in, so they just assume if they push harder, you will resume your rightful (submissive) role.  Kind of like kids and tantrums, btw -- this is basically an adult tantrum, and so treating it as such tends to work very well.  FWIW, remaining calm and saying the same thing over and over will drive this kind of personality nuts more quickly than anything else -- first you're not doing what she wants, and now she can't even get you upset or angry or guilty about it?  It just sucks all of her power away from her, if she is so insignificant that she can't even ruffle your feathers.

And, yeah, I do have one of these.  I still remember when my SIL invited us and her other sister out to a very fancy restaurant (one of those with a famous-name chef) to celebrate her birthday.  DH and I were just married and had just bought a townhouse, so I was worried at the cost, but the SIL had introduced us and was clearly excited to have me in the family and wanted to include me, so I put my hesitations aside and went.  And boy had she set this up -- she had gotten the chef's table and set up this fantastic menu (e.g., we were greeted with the largest tray of charcuterie I have ever seen), which was definitely delicious, but waaaaay more food than we could possibly eat, and of course paired bottles of wine with each course.  And then she presented us with the tab.  For like $800*.  Because after all it was her birthday. 

WTF?  Who does that?  If she'd asked if I wanted to take her out for her birthday, I'd have said of course, and chosen a reasonable restaurant -- or at a bare minimum, taken over the planning to keep the menu and wine reasonable (we could easily have eaten at the same restaurant for less than half that cost).  But being presented with the check at the end was a real dick move that left us feeling like we had to pay to preserve family harmony.  And it was delicious, but not $400 delicious.  I really felt bad for her other sister, though, who made a lot less than the rest of us at the time -- I mean, you just don't do that, period, but you sure as hell don't do that to people who make maybe half of what you do.  Lucky for me, SIL was just clueless, not mean-spirited, and she's changed her ways since then. 

*Note that this was 20 years ago.  By today's inflated dining-out standards, it would probably have exceeded $2K.

Spot on, per the usual.

I would read the shit out of a Laura33 advice column.

Agreed!

[Laura33]

Aww, shucks [blushes].  Thanks, guys.

Honestly, I've been having a hard time lately, so this makes me disproportionately happy.  :-)

[CowboyAndIndian]

Aww, shucks [blushes].  Thanks, guys.

Honestly, I've been having a hard time lately, so this makes me disproportionately happy.  :-)

Laura, any thing that you write is so chock full of information. The majority of your posts belong here!

[JustGettingStarted1980]

Laura33,

I agree wholeheartedly with the above posters. I would also "read the shit" of any Laura33 advise column or book.

Consider doing a self published book using a lot of the material you already write on this blog? Might be a fun project that makes you some nice passive income. Might also be a colossal waste of time, but you never know! The material is definitely worth paying for, in my humble opinion.

JGS

[former player]

Laura33,

I agree wholeheartedly with the above posters. I would also "read the shit" of any Laura33 advise column or book.

Consider doing a self published book using a lot of the material you already write on this blog? Might be a fun project that makes you some nice passive income. Might also be a colossal waste of time, but you never know! The material is definitely worth paying for, in my humble opinion.

JGS

Also agreed. I think a self-help book along the lines of "how your life circumstances derail you and how to get back on track" would fill a niche.

[koshtra]

Yeah, what they all said. The first thing I do when I open up the forum is check whether Laura33's said anything new.

[Kitsunegari]

Laura33 you might want to consider a blog first, then an e-book : all of the fun, so much cheaper than a self-published book.

[CowboyAndIndian]

Laura33 you might want to consider a blog first, then an e-book : all of the fun, so much cheaper than a self-published book.

I could help you setup  a blog! Technical guy here with web building experience

Now back to the regularly schedule "Best posts". Sorry for the derailment.

[cerat0n1a]

Laura33 you might want to consider a blog first, then an e-book : all of the fun, so much cheaper than a self-published book.

Self-published book with Amazon createspace costs nothing? Well, apart from the time to write it.

[CanuckExpat]

An interesting post here that presents some numbers and a comparison of the fact that the medical community and public health officials go out of their way to encourage parents to put their babies on their backs to sleep, but you almost never here a doctor asking if you walk instead of driving when possible. When in fact the reduction in death ratios is about the same (or maybe even more)

Just chatted with a doctor friend of ours who put his baby to sleep on her belly. I asked for the reasons behind that decision and the research he had done. He pointed me to this article which I found fascinating.

— Chances of a prone-sleeping infant succumbing to SIDS with no other risk factors: about 1 in 20,000 (range 10,000–25,000)
— Chances of a supine-sleeping infant succumbing to SIDS with no other risk factors: about 1 in 50,000 (range 25,000–60,000)
Let’s put those odds in perspective:

— Chances of the average person dying within the next year in a car accident: about 1 in 20,000
— Chances of the average person dying within the next year as a pedestrian involved in an accident: about 1 in 50,000

How often do doctors ask you if you walk versus drive to work?  If you had a choice, would they offer a strong recommendation that you walk, on the sole basis that you’d be less likely to die in an accident in the next year?

Most doctors would think such a recommendation on that basis alone would be ridiculous, since the odds are so low and there are so many factors involved that it would be difficult to prevent any given accident — and they only differ by a factor of 2-3.  Moreover, comparing SIDS to an accident is appropriate in this case, since without a proven cause (particularly in cases with no risk factors), statistically it is equivalent to an “accident.”

http://www.heracliteanriver.com/?p=97

For those who can make it all the way through, I am really interested in your thoughts. This seemed to bring up a lot of points and other considerations I hadn’t heard talked about before, such as developmental delays and missed sleep due to back sleeping.

This reminded me of both the The True Cost of Commuting and The Real Reason you should be Biking to Work (based on real data, the health benefits compared to sedentary commuting are massive, even if the people who commute sedentary try to exercise at other points in their day)

And it's a good reminder that humans area really bad at evaluating risk and probabilities

[beltim]

An interesting post here that presents some numbers and a comparison of the fact that the medical community and public health officials go out of their way to encourage parents to put their babies on their backs to sleep, but you almost never here a doctor asking if you walk instead of driving when possible. When in fact the reduction in death ratios is about the same (or maybe even more)

Just chatted with a doctor friend of ours who put his baby to sleep on her belly. I asked for the reasons behind that decision and the research he had done. He pointed me to this article which I found fascinating.

— Chances of a prone-sleeping infant succumbing to SIDS with no other risk factors: about 1 in 20,000 (range 10,000–25,000)
— Chances of a supine-sleeping infant succumbing to SIDS with no other risk factors: about 1 in 50,000 (range 25,000–60,000)
Let’s put those odds in perspective:

— Chances of the average person dying within the next year in a car accident: about 1 in 20,000
— Chances of the average person dying within the next year as a pedestrian involved in an accident: about 1 in 50,000

How often do doctors ask you if you walk versus drive to work?  If you had a choice, would they offer a strong recommendation that you walk, on the sole basis that you’d be less likely to die in an accident in the next year?

Most doctors would think such a recommendation on that basis alone would be ridiculous, since the odds are so low and there are so many factors involved that it would be difficult to prevent any given accident — and they only differ by a factor of 2-3.  Moreover, comparing SIDS to an accident is appropriate in this case, since without a proven cause (particularly in cases with no risk factors), statistically it is equivalent to an “accident.”

http://www.heracliteanriver.com/?p=97

For those who can make it all the way through, I am really interested in your thoughts. This seemed to bring up a lot of points and other considerations I hadn’t heard talked about before, such as developmental delays and missed sleep due to back sleeping.

This reminded me of both the The True Cost of Commuting and The Real Reason you should be Biking to Work (based on real data, the health benefits compared to sedentary commuting are massive, even if the people who commute sedentary try to exercise at other points in their day)

And it's a good reminder that humans area really bad at evaluating risk and probabilities

Interestingly, that itself is a bad evaluation of risk and probabilities.  The odds of you dying as a pedestrian are obviously dependent on how much you walk.  And the odds of dying as a pedestrian over a given distance (for example, walking to work) are MUCH higher than while driving¹.  Of course, there are other factors involved (like the exercise benefits of walking - which, by the way, doctors always recommend), but using the odds of death without accounting for how often / far you travel using those methods leads you to the wrong conclusion.

¹. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/662174/tsgb-2017-print-ready-version.pdf

[rockstache]

This post, which Okits wrote about the definition of success and comparing oneself to peers.

Sun Hat, your post really resonated with me.

kork, we're about the same age (late 30s), and I think we are in an odd transition period where psychologically, we still think our youth and health are endless, and there's still so much opportunity and plenty of time to pursue it.  In reality, the shift has already started; now or soon we'll see people in our age range getting moderate-to-serious illnesses, one or two unlucky ones dying off, workplace ageism in some industries, our parents becoming infirm and needing our attention, for those that want it, the window of opportunity shrinking for the idealized family life (partnering with someone of a similar age who understands your generational points of reference, having it be the first marriage for you both with neither bringing existing responsibilities into the union, having the desired number of offspring with no difficulty or rush, having the carefree lifestyle you desire for a number of years before illnesses or dependents appear).

From the first perspective of bountiful youth and opportunity, yeah, the career achievements seem really desirable and important.  But the second perspective is, and has always been, closer to the truth.  The duration of your life is finite.  You must make choices.  Is your priority really some cheap wall plaque and some cash because this year you maximized shareholder value more than the other corporate drones?  If some things just have to fall away, wouldn't you put aside the career ladder for the friends that really care about you, the family that loves you, the causes that matter to you, the pursuits that inspire you?

I struggle pretty hard with looking like a loser on the outside.  I don't hand out business cards that proclaim the good fortune in my personal life or the size of my investment portfolio.  There is no external validation, which is what I was conditioned to live for.  Social approval is hard to forego.  Do it anyway.  Put the important things (NOT a career you don't really care about) first.  When you experience crisis points you will feel satisfied and grateful for your choices, and not a bitter realization that you spent your life on what doesn't really matter to you.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-do-you-handle-peer-success-when-you're-looking-to-fire/msg1785525/?PHPSESSID=aumfmjngjdvjrb2l4pig97rrv2#msg1785525

[BTDretire]

Laura33 you might want to consider a blog first, then an e-book : all of the fun, so much cheaper than a self-published book.

Self-published book with Amazon createspace costs nothing? Well, apart from the time to write it.

 I had someone just today tell me that a friend of theirs sold a book on Amazon and they took 40% of the selling price. Can anyone confirm that?

[sherr]

Laura33 you might want to consider a blog first, then an e-book : all of the fun, so much cheaper than a self-published book.

Self-published book with Amazon createspace costs nothing? Well, apart from the time to write it.

 I had someone just today tell me that a friend of theirs sold a book on Amazon and they took 40% of the selling price. Can anyone confirm that?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/seller-account/mm-summary-page.html?ie=UTF8&ld=AZFooterSelfPublish&topic=200260520

"Earn royalties of up to 70%." So a 40% fee sounds within the realm of possibility.

But those are not contradictory statements. It costs you nothing (you don't have to write Amazon a check to get them to publish it), you just don't get as much money as the buyers are paying.

edit: Having re-read the conversation I retract that statement.

[HappierAtHome]

This post, which Okits wrote about the definition of success and comparing oneself to peers.

Sun Hat, your post really resonated with me.

kork, we're about the same age (late 30s), and I think we are in an odd transition period where psychologically, we still think our youth and health are endless, and there's still so much opportunity and plenty of time to pursue it.  In reality, the shift has already started; now or soon we'll see people in our age range getting moderate-to-serious illnesses, one or two unlucky ones dying off, workplace ageism in some industries, our parents becoming infirm and needing our attention, for those that want it, the window of opportunity shrinking for the idealized family life (partnering with someone of a similar age who understands your generational points of reference, having it be the first marriage for you both with neither bringing existing responsibilities into the union, having the desired number of offspring with no difficulty or rush, having the carefree lifestyle you desire for a number of years before illnesses or dependents appear).

From the first perspective of bountiful youth and opportunity, yeah, the career achievements seem really desirable and important.  But the second perspective is, and has always been, closer to the truth.  The duration of your life is finite.  You must make choices.  Is your priority really some cheap wall plaque and some cash because this year you maximized shareholder value more than the other corporate drones?  If some things just have to fall away, wouldn't you put aside the career ladder for the friends that really care about you, the family that loves you, the causes that matter to you, the pursuits that inspire you?

I struggle pretty hard with looking like a loser on the outside.  I don't hand out business cards that proclaim the good fortune in my personal life or the size of my investment portfolio.  There is no external validation, which is what I was conditioned to live for.  Social approval is hard to forego.  Do it anyway.  Put the important things (NOT a career you don't really care about) first.  When you experience crisis points you will feel satisfied and grateful for your choices, and not a bitter realization that you spent your life on what doesn't really matter to you.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-do-you-handle-peer-success-when-you're-looking-to-fire/msg1785525/?PHPSESSID=aumfmjngjdvjrb2l4pig97rrv2#msg1785525

This is brilliant and amazing and I'd better print it out and read it every damn day.

[arebelspy]

When someone posted about how they weren't "really" a millionaire with a net worth of 1MM, because the benchmark from some article they read was in 1996 dollars, so you'd need 1.6MM in 2017 dollars, FiveSigmas posted:

It's ridiculous to use such an arbitrary date as 1996. Clearly, you only count as a millionaire if you have the equivalent of 1,000,000 Roman denarii (in year 1 terms). According to wikipedia, 1 denarius was 1/25th of an aureus. An aureus was 99% gold and weighed ~8 grams, which makes it worth around $432 in today's money. Thus, you need 432/25*10^6 = ~17.3 million dollars.

And really, base 10 is pretty antiquated. I'd recommend 2^20 as the proper threshold.

On an unrelated note, what's the word for "enough-enaire"?

The first part made me laugh, but that final sentence, wow!  Love it!

[talltexan]

Pretty sure the word for "enough'enaire" is FIRE'd.

[wordnerd]

On loving your job and still wanting to FIRE.

Yep, this is me too.

As I said in my journal, I have a job that pays well, is creative and not repetitive, and rarely demands more than 40 hours per week. I work in a climate-controlled office where I don't have to endure heat, cold or shitty weather, and if even that's too much to ask, I can work from home. I have generous benefits, a decent boss who trusts me to do my job without micromanaging, and coworkers I get along well with.

As work situations go, it doesn't get much better. But, y'know, it's still work. It's 40 hours a week that my time isn't my own and I can't do what I want to do. I still have to set an alarm and drag myself out of bed in the mornings when I'd rather sleep in, get stuck in commuting snarls, attend pointless meetings, deal with ridiculous customer demands, fend off people from other departments who want me to do their jobs for them, get called on nights and weekends for emergencies.

Those kinds of frustrations are inherent to any job, even the good ones. I acknowledge there are people who have it worse than I do, but that doesn't change the fact that every hour I'm at work is an hour taken out of my finite time on this blue earth. It's time I could spend traveling the world, imbibing knowledge and beauty, and being with my wife and my little boy. In the final accounting, those things are so much more important than my job that there's just no comparison.

I don't think FIRE comes from selfishness. I think it's an inevitable consequence of valuing the right things.

[arebelspy]

Pretty sure the word for "enough'enaire" is FIRE'd.

Well I suppose it would be ridiculous for me to repost this in the exact thread that it's already in, but this was a great post. :D

[Dicey]

Pretty sure the word for "enough'enaire" is FIRE'd.

Well I suppose it would be ridiculous for me to repost this in the exact thread that it's already in, but this was a great post. :D

Leave it to a Texan to coin such an appropriate word.

[nawhite]

In a discussion about the possibility of increasing your withdrawal rate in up years like 2017, gerardc left this great explanation of why that can be dangerous based on the assumptions of the 4% SWR research.

I did the calculation before and by resetting to 4% every year the market is at a new high, you're lowering your 95% success rate down to roughly 37%. Don't do it

Can you explain this? Because the 4% rule is worst-case historical rate-of-return, is it not? So it seems to me like you should be able to reset what "4%" means each year from when you retire until the first down year, because the up years are not "worst case" sequence-of-return years.

The reason is that 4% WR does not actually have a 100% success rate; if you take a 3.6% WR (or so) which does have 100% success rate, then you're right that you can reset anytime. But since 4% only has 95% success rate, there are a few starting years that fail historically. Those years are typically right before a crash or a long stagflation period, where there is typically a market spike. So if you reset every time the market is up throughout your retirement, chances are you'll eventually hit one of those years and fail then. Those failure years are well distributed throughout history so many retirement periods will include them.

[talltexan]

Pretty sure the word for "enough'enaire" is FIRE'd.

Well I suppose it would be ridiculous for me to repost this in the exact thread that it's already in, but this was a great post. :D

Leave it to a Texan to coin such an appropriate word.

You guys are kind, but I didn't coin either word, I just connected them.

[Dicey]

Pretty sure the word for "enough'enaire" is FIRE'd.

Well I suppose it would be ridiculous for me to repost this in the exact thread that it's already in, but this was a great post. :D

Leave it to a Texan to coin such an appropriate word.

You guys are kind, but I didn't coin either word, I just connected them.

Connecting two words to make a new one = coining, no? You don't have to keep it, but I'm totally giving you credit. And stealing it. Thank you.

[arebelspy]

I think FiveSigmas coined it, if you read what I originally quoted that TallTexan was replying to. TT just changed the hyphen to an apostrophe, that's what he meant by combining it.

[DavidAnnArbor]

Laura's explanation of what financial independence means to her really gets at the emotional relief that can occur, and her writing style is vivid and palpable.

The $3m sounds large, but I suspect reaching the milestone will provide little emotional boost.  On the contrary, it may even trigger a quiet emotional drop, when the "reachers" will sigh and utter these words "Is this it?  What a bummer!"

Or, in my case:  "Is this it?  Whew!  Hallelujah!!"

Not because of a specific number on an investment statement.  Because of the massive relief when I realized I didn't need to work, ever again -- that I could walk any time I wanted to; that DH's job could implode, and I could still walk, and we wouldn't need to sell the house and uproot our lives and chase jobs across the country.  Because we've done all of that, more than once, and it was scary, and it sucked, and there's still part of me that can't believe my luck that all that worry and pressure is really gone for good.

IMO, the biggest luxury in life -- the biggest privilege -- is being able to figure out who you want to be without even considering how to support yourself doing it.  It is a privilege I never had growing up; heck, if you'd asked me back then, I'd have told you that kind of freedom existed only in the world of trust funds and silver spoons. 

I still don't know the answer, btw.  But the weight that has been lifted from my shoulders while I'm figuring it out is immense.  And the funny thing is that I didn't even know there was a giant weight on my chest until it was gone and I could suddenly breathe.

[Dicey]

I think FiveSigmas coined it, if you read what I originally quoted that TallTexan was replying to. TT just changed the hyphen to an apostrophe, that's what he meant by combining it.

Got it. I love the term, whoever's mustachian mind it came from.

[simonsez]

I enjoyed Mr. Green's story in Share Your Badassity about helping his mother set up a Simple IRA and HSA at her place of employment to finagle the health insurance costs.  Bravo!

[Raj]

First of all I think this is an amazing thread, thanks for creating it OP.

I'll have to check out Mr. Green's post later simonsez, I have to wonder how he convinced his mom to let him set up the accounts for her.  I'd love to do something similar for my father in the future.

[Bicycle_B]

Simonsez, I feel the same way and came here to tag the very same post.

For those who don't want to click, here it is (from the General Discussion area's Share Your Badassity section; thread title "Saving my mom over $10,000 in 2018 - a forum thank you!")

My mom is 61 years old. The small employer she's been with for 20 years doesn't provide heath insurance so she gets it through the ACA. In 2017, her insurance premium went up to $590 a month and it was about all she could do to afford it. She makes a few thousand dollars more than the ACA subsidy cliff threshold so she doesn't get any help, even though her insurance premiums are unaffordable, by definition in the ACA. At her age she is very hesitant to go without insurance since she's had a couple major problems from a car accident a few years back. CareFirst is raising her premium by 40% for 2018, up to almost $900 a month, and there's no chance that she can afford to pay it.

Thanks to all the knowledge I've learned from this forum and other early retirement bloggers, I investigated how easy it would be for her small employer (about 8 people) to set up a Vanguard SIMPLE IRA for her, which the IRS considers a retirement plan and would allow her to contribute pre-tax dollars to, thereby reducing her modified adjusted gross income. I asked her if the owner would be willing to offer a SIMPLE IRA to employees of the business. She thought he might go for it so I created a short PowerPoint presentation highlighting the benefits of the plan and what it would cost the business and she gave it to him to review. She explained to him how it would make a tremendous difference to the cost of her health insurance so he went for it, and has created a plan through Vanguard.

Now that she can reduce her modified adjusted gross income via pre-tax retirement contributions, I sat down with her and we reviewed her income to show how she can shift IRA contributions she had been making on her own, how she can open an HSA to reduce her MAGI even further, and how everything will work and still leave her with the money she needs to cover her living expenses. She called the state insurance exchange to report a change of income and she will now receive over $600 a month in premium subsidies, bringing the cost of insurance down to about $230 a month. The end result between the small employer contribution she'll get on her SIMPLE IRA, the tax savings she'll receive on the HSA she's opening, additional tax savings on any retirement contributions she'll make above the $6,500 she was limited to with a self-directed IRA, and the premium subsidy is that she'll save over $10,000 in 2018 and she'll get to keep her insurance. Even better is the fact that she doesn't expect her income to rise in the next few years so she now has a viable path to keeping health insurance affordable until she's 65 and can start Medicare.

So I just wanted to say THANK YOU to all the folks here that I've learned from over the past couple years because without the knowledge I've learned here this wouldn't have been possible. My mom is over-the-moon happy.

[Loren Ver]

That is one of the best things I have read in a long time.  Thank you for posting it here.

Using the knowledge to FIRE is great, using it to help others is breath taking.

[DavidAnnArbor]

Wow that's incredible Mr. Green. Thanks for posting that Bicycle.

[Raj]

I was planning to go looking afterwards, thank you Bicycle_B for making it easier, it's inspiring to see that we can use the financial knowledge we gain to not only make a difference in our own lives but also our family and friends.

[Bicycle_B]

If it is permitted to post again so quickly - "The Twelve Days of FI Christmas", by Budget Epicurean, My Sons Father, I Dream of Fire, and Musical Drewby; linked by FrugalZony:

I am so cracking up over this right now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rOS6ZENyX4

friggin hilarious!!!

[Cheddar Stacker]

If it is permitted to post again so quickly - "The Twelve Days of FI Christmas", by Budget Epicurean, My Sons Father, I Dream of Fire, and Musical Drewby; linked by FrugalZony:

I am so cracking up over this right now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rOS6ZENyX4

friggin hilarious!!!

Bravo! Very well done, particularly all the captions.

[Money Badger]

If it is permitted to post again so quickly - "The Twelve Days of FI Christmas", by Budget Epicurean, My Sons Father, I Dream of Fire, and Musical Drewby; linked by FrugalZony:

I am so cracking up over this right now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rOS6ZENyX4

friggin hilarious!!!

Loved this!!    The captions were brilliant (particularly Dave's head exploding at the end on financing a car)

Bravo! Very well done, particularly all the captions.

Loved this!!    The captions were brilliant (particularly Dave's head exploding at the end on financing a car)

[Dicey]

This post is awesome. It applies to the OP's original query about buying an expensive car because they can "afford" it now, but B_B's thought provoking and wise response quoted below reaches far beyond the question asked.

You feel your body breaking down and want to buy some joy before you're too old to enjoy it?

My advice as someone who's been there and done that:  don't buy the car.

I meant to take advantage of post-financial crash automaker desperation by purchasing a once-in-a-lifetime new car on the cheap.  I did it.  I bought a 35k-ish car that looked like 40k and felt like 40k and cost me 29k.   The same money left in the markets would be 55k now, but that's not what you're concerned about.  Here's what counts:

It didn't make a lot happier.  It only made me a little happier, and that wasn't worth it.

I did get some admiring glances every so often.  At three glances a month for three years, then two a month, then one, now none, I got probably 200+ admiring glances at a cost of $250 each.  I noticed maybe half of them, so $500 per ego stroke.  At 30 seconds per glow, maybe $1000 per minute ($60,000 per hour).  Not efficient, not sustaining.  Plus it got old after a bit.  And then, after a few years passed, other people didn't respect my car as much as I did, so even that was gone.

That's not the hard part.  The hard part is that the aches and pains happened anyway.  Some exercise and physical therapy helped, but I'm still an ex-marathoner, not a marathoner.  My hair turned gray.  I dye my beard.  I tell myself there's a bit of salt in the pepper after a week.  My honest friend just tells me my beard is gray.  Car or no, the 20something babes don't flip their hair at me any more, only the 45 to 55 year olds do.  My parent and my best friend and my other best friend died. I grieved and cleaned up some of their junk and learned to be happy that I knew them.  I realized that all my life, old people had learned that these things were coming and left me in peace to learn on my own sweet time because like all young people, hearing about age just turned me off and made me scorn them. 

The car solved none of this, stopped none of this, was irrelevant.  The brief joy was too little.  I would have been better off renting a Lambo for $2000 one weekend, spending $1000 on race track lessons and a rented stock car, and putting a bike rack on top of a cheap sedan to look outdoorsy if I wanted a second glance from someone.  I would have been better off joining a bike club or a hike club, not a car club, or joining a cooking club for that matter to increase the company in my life.

Yes, there's a place for joy if your time is short.  But a new car if you're not even at FI isn't the place. 

I get the feeling of anticipation that you're confident, basically, that you have enough.  I get that now you're approaching enough, now that you feel it emotionally, you're saying "Can I spend for happiness now?"  I get that as the cold wind blows, you shiver and say "What about me?  What about now?  What can I have?" 

You can have anything you want, but a new car isn't a good way to get much of it.  In and of itself, it's a pretty inefficient purchase.  In fact, it's pretty much guaranteed to distract you from the important things that you can and should and must and will find right on the other side of the questions that you're asking.  You will find friends and joy and wisdom and peace, you will savor the years that remain, be they five or fifty. 

But you will not find these things efficiently in a car club. 

Ok, you might.  You're you.  But I didn't.   And most people won't.  Blessings and best wishes regardless.

[Eckhart]

If it is permitted to post again so quickly - "The Twelve Days of FI Christmas", by Budget Epicurean, My Sons Father, I Dream of Fire, and Musical Drewby; linked by FrugalZony:

I am so cracking up over this right now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rOS6ZENyX4

friggin hilarious!!!

Loved it!  Merry Christmas Festivus everyone!

The Story of Festivus

[CanuckExpat]

@Jsn revived an old "this time is different" thread to update on what the OP's result would have been if they did nothing and didn't sell (ie stayed the course)

I'm reviving this old thread to illustrate the power of staying the course.

This fellow invested in the market in January of 2015. By early 2016 he was convinced he'd "missed the entire ride up" and that "this market now seems intent on going straight to hell". To him, it was obvious that "I f'ed myself over on waiting until the peak to buy in...I'm literally watching my hard work and hopes and dreams vanish with each day."

Today's total S&P return since January 2015, dividends reinvested? 36.984%.

I get the whole "eventually the market always goes up" argument and trying to time it can result in losses. However, I'm in a situation here that is tearing me to shreds:

1. I had planned on early retiring at some point this year.
2. I missed the entire ride up. At the start of last year, I piled my entire net worth into investments, despite understanding we were at historically high valuations (foolish, in retrospect).
3. I've held tight since, despite the downturns. But this market now seems intent on going straight to hell with crazy overreactions to stupid shit (China is less than 1% of all U.S. exports!!!!!! WTF?!!?!). There is zero good news that has any sustained impact and the downturn has "seemingly" just started - we're still at a high valuation level.
4. My only hope for saving my retirement this year (and potentially years ahead) is to sell today and buy back in at a lower level that could get me back to par. I'd be happy to just recoup my losses and then play it smarter in the future by finding ways to protect the downside.
5. I don't think I have 2, 3, 4+ more years of work left in me to get back to the point I was at last year.

I realized I f'ed myself over on waiting until the peak to buy in and then planning to retire shortly after. Rare scenario, but shit happens. I'm literally watching my hard work and hopes and dreams vanish with each day. My plan is falling apart. Talk to me, please.

The entire thread is worth a read

[Raj]

The entire thread is worth a read

Seeing stuff like this really shows that it's easy to intellectually understand that once you invest you don't take large chunks out, but downturns can really hit you emotionally.

The ideal situation is to start auto investing several years before you retire, that way by the time you do retire your used to completely ignoring your investments and are fine letting it go on auto pilot.

Of course it all changes when you do retire but statistically speaking your best off just getting your monthly paycheck and continuing to ignore your investments.

[former player]

Frankies Girl in the Ask a Mustachian thread "What to do with inheritance?"

Been there, done that. Inherited a life changing amount, knew nothing about investing (great saver, frugal, planning on a possible early-ish retirement in my 50s before this happened). I am now completely confident in what I'm doing and feel fantastic about it. And I barely spend an hour or two a month even thinking about all of this stuff - other than for pure entertainment. :)


First thing: I am so sorry for your family's loss. If you've received an inheritance, it means someone close to you is gone. Take some time to mourn. Do not do anything in haste or without sufficient time and research. Which means it is perfectly okay to just get things switched over into your name, and leave them to sit for a few months to work through your grief, and figure out what moves you'd like to make and educate yourself on how to go about it.

All stocks/bonds should be subject to "stepped up cost" meaning that no matter how long your dearly departed held the funds, the capital gains are now wiped clean and set to zero once you take possession. Under normal circumstances, you'd have to worry about cap gains, but it likely won't be much (if any since it could drop in value - but likely not enough to worry over) for a few months as you figure out what to do (sell them off most likely and then buy the funds that fit your own AA).

In the case of something like an IRA/401k or the like, you have two options and it is important to get this right within the next year. You can either take the full amount out within the next 5 years. This is usually not a good idea since you'll pay taxes on the amount and if the account(s) are large, it will likely force you into a very high tax bracket since it counts towards your yearly reported income, and if you're working on top of that, it could be a mess not even counting the large amounts you'd lose to taxes. If you don't set up your RMD (see below) you will be forced into this option, so this is the one thing that needs prompt attention before year end of the following year.

The other (best IMO) option is to turn it into a "stretch" IRA, which means they will need to open a new account for you with it titled something like "for the beneficiary of deceased name" or similar - it should be something that the rep is familiar with. They will assess the full amount at the end of the year, then based off your own life expectancy, calculate a required minimum distribution (RMD) based on the number of years you have left (morbid, but logical). It will be recalulated each year based off of how much is left in the account, and can usually be set up to automatically sell off funds to generate the cash needed for the RMD and whatever date you'd like it done by. You can also designate federal and state withholding of taxes usually. You can take more than the RMD without penalty at any time, but keep in mind that money withdrawn is always going to count towards your generated income and is reportable for your yearly taxes. Please do confirm with your reps, but my understanding is that the first required withdrawal after you receive the account must be made by Dec. 31 of the year after the original owner's death.


For the rest of it, take some time and deal with the emotional stuff and paperwork and such. I personally took about 3 months before I could really deal with looking at what to do going forward, and then it took me about 3 months to learn how the stock market works, how to invest, index investing, what I wanted to do and how to do it.

I found this place and lots of help from many much smarter folks than myself.

I read Jim Collins' stock series and it was like night and day - I literally went from scared and ignorant to excited and confident. Check out his site or get his book (based on the site). It is absolutely one of the best, easy to understand guides I've ever read.
http://jlcollinsnh.com/stock-series/

Check out Bogleheads site, but the following are the steps I took:

1. Wrote up an investment policy statement to figure out my goals and plans. This is my blueprint for what goes where, why I do A or B if this or that happens, where I want to go in the future, and how I'm going to get there.
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement

2. Figured out my asset allocation (AA). This is based off of how much risk/volatility I felt comfortable with and set up my portfolio to reflect my AA (which would also include any real estate).
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Asset_allocation

3. I then took a look at what I held where, sold off everything that didn't match up with my goals in my IPS (I decided I was going to be an index investor holding only 2-4 total mutual funds across my entire portfolio, and was not interested in holding actual physical real estate but that's easy to include in your own IPS and AA). I built a lazy portfolio and I am quite pleased with the ease and elegance of it all. https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/How_to_build_a_lazy_portfolio



In your situation, you need to figure out 1-3 first, and then figure out whether holding RE debt is better for you - which would mean you'd need to weigh how much your RE loans are costing you versus investing the inherited money (which is why the interest rates and amounts you currently owe are vital to even giving any advice).

Say you owed $500K but the rate was 3% or so and you have at least that much to pay off all of the loans. You'd still likely earn WAY more than 3% investing in a basic index portfolio, so holding that debt makes sense and just continue to pay the minimums would be a decent choice. The argument for not paying them off is once the properties were paid off, that money is locked into a non-liquid asset that would require you to take out another loan or sell in order to get the money back out. If you are running a rental enterprise, that is slightly different as they should always provide enough money to support the debts owed and hopefully a nice chunk of change to make repairs and still line your pockets well. But in general it isn't the best move to pay off low interest rate loans when you can invest for better returns.

Again, my personal experience: I received enough money to make paying off my mortgage a small drop in the bucket. But my interest rate is 3.5% on a traditional 30 year loan, and I owe less than 50K total. It made no logical sense to pay that off other than for psychological reasons of not owing anything on my house, but as I still have to pay property taxes and insurance, there will always be a house payment as far as I'm concerned so the psychological comfort of knowing I paid off my house is meaningless to me. I can make way more keeping that money invested and just paying the monthly payments as structured.

If you have other debts that are over 5%, then likely I would say pay them off. But my personal opinion is that debt below 5% should be paid as scheduled and any extra money invested.

And for the rest of that: cash out? NO. Sitting on a big pile of money is money that isn't working for you, and inflation will eat away at the value of that money over time. Keep it in the market, based off of your IPS/AA and get that cash working hard for you for the rest of your life.

Call a financial adviser? NO. Read the links I mentioned above, do some other research and ask questions here if you run into anything you need help with. You are completely capable of managing your own money and investments. You are going to care WAY more than anyone else about it, and most FAs out there are not going to have your best interests at heart. Self managing really is easy to do (index investing anyway) and it is worth the month or two getting up to speed. Fear and uncertainty and wanting to have the "experts" handle things for you are all based on lack of knowledge - educate yourself and you'll be confident and clear on the what and why and how.

Definitely consider discussing your real estate holdings on this forum as well, so you know whether they are a good fit for your portfolio and making you a decent return. I personally don't like physical real estate myself but it definitely can be a great asset in your holdings.

[mustachepungoeshere]

Malkynn on stealth wealth. The last paragraph is everything.

We can’t really pull off Stealth Wealth because based on our jobs, everyone has a pretty good idea of what our income is: I’m a dentist, he works for the government, and we don’t have kids.

However, that doesn’t stop everyone from making off base and sometimes idiotic assumptions, lol.

An entry-level admin at DH’s work (basically a receptionist), recently made a comment about how DH always had a hard boiled egg at work and doesn’t drive in, so she assumed he was broke. His general income is public record, she knows full well that he makes more than triple what she does, but she felt really bad for him that he couldn’t afford to buy lunch and that he had to eat so many hard boiled eggs and couldn’t afford to drive in.
He frequently gets “isn’t your wife a dentist?”

Most people assume that I’m only frugal because I’m still early in my career as a dentist and I have debt to pay off. I get a lot of “reassurance” that I’ll be driving a BMW and living in an expensive neighbourhood in no time, which always makes me snort laugh.

People also assume that because I don’t own the clinic I work at, that I must be making a lot less money than the owner...um...I work half the hours she does and I take home twice as much right now. (Her profits go to business equity, so they’re there, just not as cash flow yet).

People assume that because I only work 3 days a week that I make much less money.
Well, yes, I make less money than I used to working nearly twice as much, but I still make more than many other people in my field who work far more hours because I’m better positioned to be more profitable day to day and hour to hour. I’m actually working the optimal amount to generate enough income to get the max benefit from tax deferral. Anything more and I can’t offset the high taxes, so it’s not actually worth it for me to work more and make more money.
Additionally, that leaves me enough free time to work on side hustles, which will likely end up more profitable than my day job in the end.

People assume I’m miserable and waiting to live until I reach some arbitrary financial goal and that I’ll snap and start spending like crazy as soon as I loosen the reigns a bit and give myself some financial breathing room. They think the used Corolla with the roll-up windows is a hardship that will drive me insane and that I’ll end up with a Porsche in my heated garage attached to my posh mini mansion in the ‘burbs (AKA my version of hell).
Lol, I moved *from* the poshest neighbourhood to the sketchiest in the city because I preferred it, and that’s *before* I found MMM.

People assumed we had a tiny 6 guest wedding to save money.
Nope. I just dislike big weddings and wasn’t willing to serve insanely expensive wine/champagne to more than a few very loved friends and family.

I see my life as filled with luxury, and I don’t hesitate for even a second to spend money on things I consider worthwhile. I paid $1000 for a kitten for fuck’s sake. I don’t live deprived at all, I’m just picky and don’t find most things worth the price tag. I’m not cheap, I’m just a snob about spending.
[kitten was totally worth it]

[Astatine]

Kyle Schuant on privilege. He nailed it.

Glass half empty or half full, we all can agree that not everyone's glasses are the same size.

Correct. Many of us here are privileged and don't realise it. This is usually responded to with indignant howls of "but I work so hard!" But "privilege" or lack of it doesn't mean you don't work hard or do, it simply affects how much you'll get out of your hard work.


Anyone involved with sports knows that there exist "natural athletes" - the person with a big vertical jump and who can simply watch a movement and reproduce it well. This is why in my gym we'll get women who after 3 months of training squat 60kg, and others who squat 100kg. All of them show up every time and lift, but some simply get more out of their 39 sessions in 13 weeks than do others. They have talent.


Likewise people with a degree of privilege. The other day in the paper there was a young guy, son of a very wealthy family, talking about the apps he'd made and sold, and he proudly said "my parents never gave me a cent." He'd gone to Geelong Grammar, a school which costs about $37k a year - so his parents had spent the equivalent of a full-time minimum wage before tax on his education every year. What a cleaner or waitress working full-time (few do) earns in 13 years had gone on his education (there was no mention of if he'd gone to university). Not on;y this excellent education, but of course places like that have a lot of other privileged kids who can introduce you to people to invest in your work; this is why so many of the leading CEOs, high court judges and so on come from just a few schools.


"My parents never gave me a cent." They didn't have to. The kid worked hard - but because he had that start with an excellent education and knowing the right people to help him make things happen, he got a lot more out of his work than would a son of a single-mum part-time casual cleaner, the son who'd gone to a state school in Woop Woop.


Yes, if you're earning $40k you can save half of it. But then you're missing out on a lot of things, and not the things you miss out on when you're getting $100k and save half of it, more vital things. And you're relying on nothing going wrong for 20 years or so - no hospital visits, no sudden evictions, no deadbeat brothers-in-law who need a loan but will never pay it back, no periods of unemployment, and so on.


A lower income does allow saving, but a lower income is more fragile. And lower-income jobs tend to be less secure. People with lower incomes have more frequent and longer periods of unemployment than do those with higher incomes. This was a point missed by Geelong Grammar App Boy - sure, his parents didn't invest in his apps. But if it all failed miserably he wouldn't end up on the street. He had the freedom to take the risk of a big fuckup, a freedom that his Woop Woop State School son of a part-time casual cleaner peer wouldn't have.


I am acutely aware of these issues because I grew up poor, but am now doing well. I was able to do a career change and start a small business because of my wife doing a full-time professional job; she gave me the security, the fallback in case the risk turned out bad. I could have done it without her, but it would have been much harder, and the risks of failure would have been much greater. As someone who has literally slept on the street at one point, I am acutely aware of what "risk of failure" means for some people. The change and the business worked and now we're doing well.


This is why MMM speaks of giving to charity. Those of us who have more have a responsibility to give so that others may have opportunities like ours. Part of this is accomplished by taxation, which pays for public schools and so on, but whatever your politics, most can agree this is less efficient and effective than it might be, and so we should give to charities.


Originally the definition of "middle class" was "well-off to hire servants." In the Third World it's considered a social obligation (as well as a sign of status), so this is why you'll get a single professional in Beijing, Manila or Nairobi with a tiny apartment - but they have a maid. You have a lot, now you should pass it on. In the West few people have full-time servants, but some of us have businesses and we can hire people for them, and all of us have all sorts of jobs we can hire people for occasionally. In Judaism as in many faiths, charity is a duty, and the best charity is giving someone a job.

it's just plain evil to teach people they can't possibly succeed when it's been proven that people can.

Saying that some people will find success more difficult and requiring more luck than others is not saying that success is impossible for some people.


Americans are terrible at nuance and degree.
"I'm against the death penalty."
"What?! So we should just let them all go?!"
"I'm in favour of the death penalty."
"What?! So we should execute people for jaywalking?!"


Nuance. Subtlety. Degrees of this and that. Set aside this lazy black & white thinking and contend with what people have actually said: nothing is impossible, but some things are harder than others. "Well, just work harder." Yes, that works. But some people still need to be lucky.

[Turkey Leg]

From a couple of days ago. While the responses are mostly idiotic, the post itself is spot on. There is a very large group of MMMers who have no understanding of the “notify” function.

So I found an interesting thread with thousands of responses AND ALMOST EVERY RESPONSE IS "FOLLOWING" OR "PTF"!!!

What the actual fuck, people?

If you want to follow the post, simply click Notify. The poor etiquette in this forum makes it unusable.

I don't understand this. I am 47 years old and have been using the internet since it was a thing. I am a member of several other online communities. Nobody else does this!

If one of the moderators would go gangster and kick out everyone who doesn't know how to use the interwebs, that would be great.

I will check back in a week to see if the situation is rectified. That is all.

[Fresh Bread]

Oh my.

[Astatine]

Oh my.

IKR. The irony.

[Astatine]

Oh my.

IKR. The irony.